I don’t know if that’s really ironic. It’s not even really surprising. “Amp in the room feel” is what people say more often than “amp in the room sound” Modelers are really designed to sound like very good mic’d recordings, and they do.
Nathan, if you made an album of just a compilation of you and your backing tracks, or even without backing tracks, I’d happily drive to work listening to it. It’s just beautiful.
I keep reading these arguments back and forth - amp vs. modeler, modeler vs. amp - and every time I come to the same conclusion: Your playing is so damn good! Seriously, I could just listen to your noodling for hours!
You are absolutely right, its something I've been chasing down for awhile. Modeler into studio monitors: sounds incredible, but doesn't feel "alive" or hit you in the gut. Modeler into PA speaker: Once again, sounds good but too hi-fi, and unnatural. Modeler into FX return of tube amp combo: Much better, the low end is there, but the high end still feels odd. Still, this is the best experience so far. Modeler into power amp into guitar cab: Even better than the previous, especially with a Seymour Duncan PowerStage 200, because the EQ can help a lot. Friedman Dirty Shirly Mini into 2x12 vertical cab: No comparison. Theres a reactiveness and liveliness under your fingers, also a thickness that hits your pant legs when you choke down on the strings with your palm. Theres a level of dynamics and nuance that just isnt there with modeling, even in its best scenario. At a live show, most wont know or give a shit about the difference between your modeling amp vs the real one, so convenience wins out. But for home jamming or even in a small band jam, you can't beat real amp in the room IMO. Also correct yeah, its so much easier to dial in a tone for a mix or composition with a modeler, something that will "sit" right. With an amp and mics, there are a million different factors that can affect your recording. So for 90% of us yeah, modeler will sound much better than recording the amp yourself, unless you want that gritty, untamed sound of the room, maybe that rawness is an intentional, conscious artistic choice.
Yeh I think those are the same experiences as me - although I think I preferred straight into the FX return, and weirdly, leaving IRs/Cabs on.....That way when you turn it up louder, it doesn't get spikey...
Agree 100%. Was at a festival show with multiple bands and everyone that played a modeler (one direct to house, line 6 cab to monitor, the other line 6 into a Mesa Boogie 22) lacked the dynamics of the other players using tube amps. The biggest difference was the initial attack of the note. The amps had a punch and pop that the modelers lacked. It’s not a volume issue, more about articulation and projection. Can modelers work live? Sure, but I think it takes a lot of behind the scenes effort and thought. Like using less gain than you do at home (these guys sounded overly compressed live), matching you tone trough the mains, as John has said in the past - no board compression or EQ?
That’s just my thoughts as a guitar player spectator. As a player I agreed with the OP above. I have never played a modeler that reacts like a great tube amp. Everything he mentions I find is true. (Even how he likes running a modeler). Still I prefer the dynamics, punch, attack and touch of a great tube amp.
That feeling of moving air is hard to simulate. But "no-one enjoys an amp as much as the person playing it" has the ring of truth to me. Also, BTW, those chord voicings give me chills.
I think your point on volume obscuring details is huge. I feel like it is easy for me to get inspired with a real amp in the room because I am not hearing the details, I'm just getting a loud warm blanket of sound with lots of reflections.
I have nothing against modelers - I have a Strymon Iridium that can sound every bit as good as it needs to. However, I still like my real amps a little better - and not just "in the room" either. Through a Suhr Reactive Load IR and headphones. I"m not a purist by any means, I just think real amps are still a little better in terms of tone and response.
There's just nothing like the amp in a room sound! So much more dynamic! But you have to capture the room sound as well because the room is actually like a speaker in itself which adds to the sound of the amp and amplifies the experience. The reason why all those old CBS records were so gr8 is because they only used a few choice placement room mics. Nice playing Johnathan 👌
Great playing, by the way. I have a Kemper 4 wired into the Helix floor with a Db+, a Keeley Compressor Pro in front, with an AT drive, OCD and Timeline in the Helix effect loops, and a Mission volume pedal. You put that through some Focal Trio 6 monitors and you can get hearing loss, just like when you fire up a 100 watt tube amp, which I have a few of. One of my 2 year live gigs, meant my amp was 30 feet away behind the stage, so I Eventually just worked with the Helix or Kemper live. I like having a choice, but I rarely fire up the amps. Heck, getting a monitor in your studio that can compete with a 12 inch cab and 100 watt amp is key to not missing the amp. Headphones and the modelers, late at night keeps my wife from hating me. A friend gave me a powered wedge monitor and that works for live when you aren’t using in-ears with a modeler. I also have a Royer 122 and an RE20, so mic’ing an amp is not an issue. Since my cabs are in another room, I am hearing that through my monitors anyway, and after profiling my favorite amp with the Kemper, I couldn’t hear a difference…through my monitors, so that amp is rarely recorded live anymore. The best bass sound I have on the Kemper, came from profiling an Ashdown amp and mixing direct signal from a Fatboy tube DI. I always fix phase issues when recording bass with a DI and amp, so the Kemper is worth every penny just for the bass. Plus, for the amp profiles, I used different combinations of mics. I think at this point, I am too lazy to record bass without a Kemper. I just bought some Dan Huff profiles for the Kemper and wouldn’t be able to afford the amps profiled, so I am done buying amps…until next tax return.
The Lonestar sounds amazing. It's definitely one I long to try some time. I play tube amps only in the room. Never tried modeling. But I have to say I love the sounds you get from both. Your Litigator fusion tones are awesome.
Very interesting video, a subject I’ve been mulling over for years. I’m a helix user, previously a valve amp addict. Been on the helix since it came out, I’ve got a powercab 212, however recently I’ve got a Seymour Duncan power stage 200, helix into that then into a V30 loaded 212 and it’s like having a valve amp again. Well worth experimenting if you haven’t. Gives you the low end thump digital guitar amps don’t give you
I think ppl obsess about the tube vs digital tone... which is always a fun conversation. For me I do play differently with a tube amp... the sounds you hear and react to are then part of that recorded sound. There are definitely modeler tones I love, but it is somehow different, lol.
I think it’s good to go back and forth. Both have their purposes and uses. Both make you appreciate the other after a time apart too. When you come back to the one it’s always a nice reunion. Then when fatigue sets in go spend some time with the other. Cant be monogamous with gear.
I guess amps are designed to fill a room, modellers to sit in a mix. Both is best. I sold all my pedals when I bought a HX Effects, I'm currently in the process of buying pedals again and building a new pedaboard, just for fun. I find swapping out/buying new gear and rotating what you play inspires you to play while you mess around and try new things.
I’d love to see you get to compare that Lonestar with the HX - Seymour Duncan SS power amp to a cab like someone mentioned below. Is it mostly just about the real cab in a room experience?
The best for me is to combine both: play my HX stomp through a tube guitar power amp/ speaker. I can replicate the tube preamp easily with the same harmonics and compression, etc.
I love modeling for practicing in headphones and recording for demo tracks. Quick easy sounds great. Amps RULE for live in person playing and gigs, they act like another instrument and have a feel and vibe modelers just don't quite have yet (very, very close) but there is something different.
Yep, couldn't have said it any better. To be honest, for most practising and playing at home, I still use an amp but a HB or Monotone Tube15 instead of the Fender/Marshall live rig. For recording demos a Headrush MX5 into Logic Pro. Damn, we live in a golden age for guitar players. I'm 50+ and when I started gigging, it was a curly lead straight from guitar to amp with maybe a channel switch on the floor for clean to dirty.
Great video, loved the playing and thoughts. Both sound option sounded lovely. I don’t know if anyone else mentioned it but when you went back and forth between them, the Fractal was clearly wetter with a nice reverb sound. This probably gave it a bit of a leg up :)
I while back I was watching a YT vid on FRFR speakers for modellers, and this guy had possited that an FRFR speaker in a Birchwood enclosure rather than your typical plastic PA style speaker is the thing that makes for a large portion of the amp in a room feel with a modeller direct to FRFR/PA. He recommended a Friedman FRFR of some sort and you could definitely hear a noticeable difference in his videos across the several models. I have a cheap Samson aura 15" speaker which is considerably different to the 12" PA speakers I tried - I thought that sounded closer having more bass but also I have a 2x12 Marshall with a pedal baby power amp and it's gotten to the point of it just being different sounds. I never really used tube power amps before modelling - having tried one 70s JMP and a fender hybrid, I prefered the hybrid but that was decades ago... And since have either stuck to tube preamp things into SS class AB poweramps (i.e. I still have the 100w fender roc pro or my H&K tubeman mkii or my BlackStar dual tube preamp into the pedal baby 100w). But since I never gravitated towards valve poweramps preferring the response of the SS power amp, I probably don't know what Im talking about our what I'm missing
You besmirch my awful name, make me sound so crass and technical. I do believe I cheekily said it’s ‘shagging without a rubber’ If you’re gonna throw me under the bus do it right! And that axe tone is one of your best 👍🏻
I have a 50th anniversary jtm and jvm 1 watt... they play and record great. For me switching between modelers and amps provides different inspiration. I currently own all the beans and the helix. Pod xt still my fav. Sold my axe fx3 and Kemper. They sound great... but just didn’t enjoy them as much.
Probably because it's what we're hearing "out here" compared to what you're hearing in the room- but I liked the tone of the AXFX III much better then the real amp- and I love my Lone Star too- but that tone from the AXFX was glorious.
I love my amps and sounds they produce . When I played on stage every week for years my in ears were what I became used to using and that sound and instant feedback in a mix was what I needed to play and sound as good as I could . The stage volume of a full band blasting in a good size room is not pleasing to me to play well … but that’s just my experience and to each his own 😎 Stay well John and thanks for your honesty of your channel 😉
I think "Studio Use" and "Home Use" are likely to require different Cab EQ's, etc. Thanks to John, and Brian Wampler, I now know that many Real Amp Cabs have a steep High Cut somewhere around 3.5 - 5kHz, and that all the HX Stomp Cabs have High Cut initially set to 8kHz. That may be great in the Studio, but maybe not so much for Home or Headphones use. It is usually too bright for my Monitoring Headphones, and it lacks "feel" and excitement I like. Switching my HX Stomp Cab Block "High Cut" settings on my Presets to the "Real Speakers" Frequency Response Chart is fixing that for me. I'm thrilled with the results so far, and it makes it easier to dial in other Amp and Effect parameters/settings. I've been removing many of the EQ Blocks I had to use previously, and switching back to less "dark" Mics. YMMV Thanks
As a lifelong tube amp enthusiast, I prefer your modelling sounds. You've mastered them so well they sound almost otherworldly. Tubes rarely sound bad though. And they shift air. Stop messing with my head.
For years I've had a reverse and inverted kind of experience. I've been getting all my feels and vibes from headphones tone and then try to transfer that to either monitors in a mix or some kind of live in the room setup and it's never gonna be the same but I keep getting closer to figuring out what it is that I actually want and need from my digital units. If anyone gets a chance to feel and hear an amp through an iso box or similar setup, that really helped me understand and come to grips with a few things tone wise. We a/b lots of different stuff and everything always comes close or close enough. Still hard to beat an amp in the room experience wise. It's a Tesla vs. Driving a V8 manual.
Probably the best thing to do is to treat them as one. There's always going to be a time when you need the other format. Pete. PS I'm firing up my Mark 4 (complete with 200 watt EV speaker) tomorrow.. Am looking forward to it....
True. 12" speakers project sound in different ways to FRFR or whatever. A more interesting comparison would be valve amp vs modeler > power amp (as in something a-la seymour duncan powerstage) > standard guitar speaker cab.
Interesting. Before modeling became mainstream, wasn't there a growing trend for speaker cabs to be isolated away in a separate soundproof room or enclosure? I understand how we tend to like the deep, full sound of an amp when playing solo. When we play alone in a room on an amp are we training our ears for tones that actually don't translate well once recorded or played live at a gig? I always thought part of practice was finding 'your sound' and being able to dial that in.
Yeh I can certainly remember reading about the guitarists from Textures using ISO-cabs....I guess that'd be a fairly extreme case where you'd want the Amp to be super cranked for some reason? For me personally I find that even having the Amp at low to moderate volumes does translate to a really pleasant playing experience....But once you're live, and if the amp is quiet live, I never really found there to be a whole bunch of difference in the experience. And I wouldn't be allowed to turn up too loud....
I've had the full helix and two powercabs running in stereo (sold the helix. I have the Ampero and one powercab. I just got the hx effects to try to replace my pedal board. I just got a Dr Z Maz 18. There is really no comparison. No matter what i do I can't get the modeler to feel right. When i crank the Dr Z, the dynamics are so freaking good. The pick attack. Just using volume of the guitar can get you clean to crunch. The feedback that can happen. I just bought the hx effects to pair with the Dr Z and unfortunately when hooked up to my amp even just in the effects loop, it takes away some highs and gain. My pedal board doesn't do that. I like my amps and pedals better. Man that is some great playing!
Just need IRs that incorporate room mics? With the cab in room, which usually on the floor and off axis, it definitely won't be the same as sitting in front of near field monitors!
Modelers: Convenient, for all intents and purposes do their job really well, great for experimenting, great for practice Real Amp: Is the literal "authentic" experience most people are accustomed to and its hard to not have that after having it for so long Both have their legitimate purposes on this musical journey
I started with a Kemper but sold it in favor of a DSL100, an AC30S1 and a Bassbreaker 007. More pleasing. I got best results with the Kemper when playing through my 2x600 W PA in stereo, which also has decent sound quality, but thats also not the right think for my living room. If I want to fiddle with knobs and displays I sit down at the keyboards.
My experience with recording real amps at any volume is that, even when close miced, the room plays a huge role in the end result. Recording in a room where the floor isn’t properly floated or which happens to have less than ideal dimensions in terms of creating standing waves at certain frequencies or other frequency anomalies, is problematic. A mix engineer friend of mine said that when mixing budget projects he generally prefers to get guitars recorded with a modeller than guerilla recordings from whatever rehearsal room or back bedroom the recordist has access to, as beyond any potential issues with the engineering of the recording, there are no weird room resonances going on, which means the guitars can be cranked in the mix if that is the appropriate thing to do.
John did you try Hotone Ampero II Stomp hooked up to head + cab via 4 cable method? You can switch out the amps preamp for a Hotone preamp, while still using the Poweramp and cab. It's so good!
I’m a big modelling fan but your mic’d tones here do have something special to them. Not sure if it’s how you’re reacting to the sound in the room and playing into the tone more, or something else. Just seems more alive and dynamic in this case
Nail on the head with all this. I don't bother trying to tell the difference recorded any more. It's really just an in the-room thing (studio monitors vs cab speaker), which is very real. Do you get the same satisfaction if you use a modeler with the cab sim switched off, into the FX return or power amp in, and thru the cabinet?
I don't play too well, but I played a Lonestar a few times and it sounded pretty amazing. I always thought Mike einziger used the flagship Rectos for their hits, but he used Lonestars; make senses "clearly"...pun intended...
Ah, I just want the FEELING of the amp in the room; the 3d sound filling up the space, the fullness of a cab doing its thing, the air coming from the speaker, etc. If I can get that without tubes, point the way! From what I've heard, FRFR/studio monitors + amp modeling doesn't get that vibe at all
That’s been my big dilemma. I’ve wanted the modeling thing to really work out but your right, it just still isn’t there yet with the FRFR stuff. Recording is a whole different thing but most guitarists want that simple “amp” feel when playing live.
Hello mate - great playing. total noob question here about modelers. Had the thr10c which was grand but mostly play real amps. Question is if you had a moment - was thinking of getting a hx stomp as moving house, I don't record music just play, house won't allow loud playing. Can I connect the helix to powered speakers so I can play in stereo? Any thoughts on quality of sound and what speakers you would recommend. My thinking was go modeler and take advantage of the stereo sound? Thanks!!
I think the big difference is that a modeler is reproducing a recorded guitar tone: the sound of an amp through a cab in a room with a mic through a board, preamp, EQ, compression, etc. But it’s reproducing the end results. The sound of the amp is the raw tone. Your ears are the only processing. It’s 3D, and you can feel the sound waves in your body. It’s a different experience. Like driving a race car on a really complicated and high tech simulator vs the real deal. But I can’t store 200 different amps in my house with all the cabs and mics, and get them all for less than 700 dollars. So for everything you might sacrifice, there’s another additional upside. From this point on, I’ll probably have both.
They only reproduce the sound of a recorded guitar tone if you're using cab sims/IR's, switch them off, run them into a cab via a decent poweramp and the difference becomes very small and even indistinguishable in some cases. This may defeat the purpose for players who only need one amp, but for others who want the flexibility, versatility and switching capabilities of a modeller it's a very viable alternative. As someone who gigged with a valve amp and boutique pedals for a good few years and who now plays a helix into a 3x10 cab via a valve poweramp I really feel like I'm sacrificing nothing tone wise and if I'm honest prefer the sounds I get now, also once it's cranked up at gig levels the feel is all there for me. I understand some people may not gel well with modellers and struggle to get on with them, which I think is a lot to do with user error a lot of the time, but for me I'm extremely happy with my setup.
The condom analogy! Great point. To draw it out, on side by side videos it may be hard to tell the difference between condom or no condom, but the player knows. One must ask; Is it for your pleasure? Or the person watching? If you're just noodling around by yourself, use what makes you happy.
Hi John, awesome video. I have a very offbeat question on using amps vs modelling units. how do you get your sounds so clean without any buzz or hiss at loud volume or gain on your pedals and amp? ta
I much preferred the axeFX sound in these demos, there's a certain wooliness on the real amp sound that I just dislike. The axeFX sounds clearer in my opinion PS: outstanding playing man!
It’s all about trade-offs, as your video and your channel in general get across very well. A tube amp in a room is a very inspirational thing. But in a lot of circumstances a tube amp is not practical, and Satriani’s point about recording is correct. The discussion goes around in circles because really we are talking about apples and oranges.
since I'm following you for along time and appreciate your approach to music I really wonder do you play piano ? cause your approach to chords are amazing ... your answer maybe makes me practice some piano😁😁🎸🎸🎹🎹🎶🎶🤘🤘
A lot of it is simply what you are used to, and for many of us that grew up with ‘proper’ amps, nothing else ever feels quite the same. If there is a choice i will always prefer a good amp, but many times especially these days it is simply less practical… Little by little i am finding i use the modelling more than the amp for daily practise as it is just there ready to go, and i can use headphones if it is late etc… but i’m not giving up my boogie any time…. John, i think you need to add the lonestar to the list of must keep amps - sorry… Also i really wish boogie had done a ‘lunchbox’ size version of the lonestar amp head, that would do me !
I just played through my revv dynamis 7-40 with 2x 12 cab! It is just so organic. It’s got really sparkling highs and ballsy lows and a rich dimensional mid range. It really shows the limitations of modelers. It’s like taking a picture through a cell phone versus a medium format camera. There is a depth that modelers pale in comparison.
Tell me about it. I came across a video of someone doing a Marshall Silver Jubilee 2525H demo and I'm really tempted to pull the trigger. But first I'm going to see how close the Stomp will get me.
OOH - is that the smaller head or is still a big powerful one? The silver jubilee to me seems like the marshall that I might like best....but not sure I can justify it at all
@@johnnathancordy The small 20 watt one that can be lowered down to 5 watts. I think it is based on the larger silver jubilee 2555x as used by Slash. It one of the best Marshalls that I have heard with good cleans as well as some iconic tones. It was a toss up between the. 2525 Head or a Friedman Runt . But on what I've heard so far the Marshall tones are more to my liking and a steal at £725.
Modelling is convenient and easy. Real amps take work but rewarding. I float between the 2 ……. When I can be assed. I use the bluguitar amp 1 more these days than modelling. The size and weight is like a modeller but it feels like a real amp. Because it is
Amps make sound where you hear a speaker compress before it releases and fills a room with a note. Idk if you call that sag? no clue. Also amps respond differently to touch. say if an amp could make vocal sounds you'd hear la le oo ahh mm yea 😆 where a modeller can only make one la.. either a loud LAAA or quiet la. Thats what im hearing 😂🤷11:08
Amps will always be the best live but modellers are a great stand in and easy to record and travel with and also use in the bedroom at a level that doesn't get you arrested.
Can you discribe if there is huge/or how big difference between using real amp vs modeller into real cab with power amp? Is there difference with setup like that? Im asking because you have this experience. I only have experience with real amps. Right now a have just tube amp, luckily with attenuator so playing in bedroom I can switch to 1w what is appropriate to my room I would say and also its easier to control the tone. And I like that. But I started record at home. First with mic. Not a huge success. And while the amp has line out (post power amp) so I can go direct into sound card into PC and using IRs there and its much better. But sometimes Im working on it for hours so having tube amp ON and hearing sound from computer speaker, well not so smart and practical :D. So Im like. Should I get modeller? Playing amp in room is fun. Just wondering if it would be same (or enough) fun with modeller. Cause for recording at home Im sure its better. And I dont wanna buy some expensive loadbox and microphones etc. Dont wanna go this way. Just wondering what is your opinion. And also Im not very wealthy so everything like this is like "huge" decision :D
So yeh - in my case I almost always record with a modeller - it's just more convenient, and there are no surprises at the end of a session where you've found that your mic placement was horrid.... For recording at home (assuming you don't live somewhere with like an isolated control room etc) I'd think that a modeler is a) cheaper and b) quicker to get results with (eventually) than an Amp.
Rhett is a good player in his own way and accomplished a good bit, he’s not someone I take seriously especially when it comes to gear, tones or opinions. 😂
Real amps are truly amazing, can't match the feeling of playing through a loud tube Amp. That would wake up my kids though, so the Vox AC15 doesn't get turned on a lot. :D
I used to find that after playing with the helix for a while then using a real amp that I would think this is great play. Then I'd play exclusively with that for a bit then have a go at the Helix and think actually I prefer that. Perhaps I'm just a fickle git.
Is a Boss Katana a real amp? For me I have a helix plugged into a Harley Benton FRFR speaker and I very rarely if ever (a year ago was the last time) use my Boss Katana. I love the range of tones I can get through the Helix and FRFR speaker. Fact is, if people are trying to keep the amp industry alive because "it feels better", it is on seriously ropey ground. I tend to think "real" amps are simply a lifestyle choice for jazz musicians and hipsters, doing the anti digital "authentic" thing at this point. It is a style thing. An expensive fashion accessory. Lugging a expensive delicate amp to a gig when you can take a Boss GT1000 core in your gig bag, like Nita Strauss, no brainer.
A Boss Katana is a real amp I reckon yeh? I think it definitely takes a commitment to sticking with the modeler route and an acceptance that it's going to be a slightly different experience (some good, some not so good). I do hear from people that have tried to get into using a modeler and it just doesn't work out for whatever reason - "feel" or "tone". In which case fair play, I'm not gonna force em haha
It's real enough for my wife to complain about my playing every night. In that respect it passes the "nobody enjoys an amp more than the person playing it" test.
Personally I was thinking the same thing as I said in the video that's one of the problems with a tube amp in the room, it's easy to get caught up by the room sound - the actual recorded sound ends up being way different!
I just wish companies would try to modernise tube amps. Just make them lighter, more compact and more portable, build in aux ins, Bluetooth, line outs with state-of-the-art cab emulations, and there will a plethora of options that right now make this debate a reality, where there shouldn't be one really...
There might be a question about whether lighter amps sound different to the heavier ones? Like people are keen for the tones of the amps that have heavy speakers and heavy transformers right?
What I think you're pointing to is the fundamental dilemma between the digital sampling and modeling realm and analog audio. You have the very pure physics of digital modeling based on Nyquist's theorem and the hard cap that occurs over certain frequencies based on the sampling rate. You also have this very strange thing in modeling where the overtone series doesn't really blossom because there is nothing playing against the frequencies as they move through the air and in space. With a real guitar playing through a real amplifier with real processing blossoming into the room you get this movement of overtones and response between your hands, the pick ups of the guitar and the sound in the room that can't be modeled. It's simply not physically possible. Also on a big stage the modelled amplifiers will work but the overtone series again doesn't really blossom in the room and if you put a modeling amplifier up against a really good analog amplifier on a stage the modeling amplifier, in most situations, will simply disappear against the real amp. I think what you're pointing to his important because it's impossible to really get past that simply because of the physics. I think that we've come and incredibly long way, as you clearly demonstrate in all of your work, but I think there's still a long way to go.
Modelers through actual speakers should provide exactly the "amp in the room" effect. Many confirmations of this with profilers. But many disagree on that for modelers. Which is your opinion on this?
I think the problem with the Profiler thing is that if you hear it through the same guitar cab (like you get an opportunity to do during the profiling process) the differences are quite masked by the colouration of the cab? So in that case it's quite difficult to tell them apart. I think this is part of what has driven the perception that the Profiler is more accurate in some way?
Considering how often this topic comes up, why is there not more of a market for totally transparent solid state power amps and standalone cabs? If we’re in agreement that modelers do an extremely good job replicating a real amp, shouldn’t we be able to pair a modeler with this solution and get exactly what people are after?
A good valve amp will be always the true experience, i like more valves and Mesa is my favorite brand, but i never had one and i will never have, a Mesa or any valve amp. For me is the convenience of digital, i can tap on it easy, live, in stage, and recording, is simply easy. But yes, for me a real amp will be always better, but is expensive, needs maintnance, difficult to record, annoying for other people in home. If i had a expensive valve amp i would live in constant fear and anxiety, thinking when the valves will die, if humidity will blow the amp, if i will broke a valve transporting it or if it will be damaged. Nahh, not for me. But if i had the money, the division in home with proper isolation to not annoy other people in home, i would buy a Mesa for sure, oh yes i would. I am using at the momment a HX Stomp with a 100w pedal/amp from Harley Benton (Thunder 99) with stereo capabilities, a wah/volume pedal and a 2x12 Harley Benton V30 Vintage. I put all the pedals in a tinny pedalboard. Easy to transport.
Tube amps are like driving a classic muscle car, they’re a tons of fun, but not practical for daily use or work commute, amp modelers are like boring electric cars (chevy bolt, not a tesla) its not as fun as a classic muscle car but will do the job more efficiently.
I dunno, i preferred the axe fx. The amp in the room feel is a trade off against tone, somehow. That's my feeling anyway. Probably get a torrent of sarcasm and superiority from amp purists, but meh.
I felt the same listening back to the recorded tones....It can be deceiving with the amp right there with you because you don't really have a great idea for what the recorded tone is going to end up like?
Pfff , maybe it's a brainwash thing , but there's something about an good tube amp no modeler will never achief , i guess it has to do with the the warmth ( soundwise ) off the interaction between all the parts in a tube amp ( tubes , trafo's ect. ) a modeler will never be able to capture . It's also a nogstalgia thing i guess , but anyway's i have an fender tonemaster dr wich sounds great to me but not like my elfing little gem ( a dutch made 5 w top notch tube amp ) , there;s just more harmonics ect. to the sound off an real tube amp .
Ironically, when I listen to the end clip, without the sound of the amp in the room hitting my legs - I prefer the Axe FX tones....
I don’t know if that’s really ironic. It’s not even really surprising. “Amp in the room feel” is what people say more often than “amp in the room sound” Modelers are really designed to sound like very good mic’d recordings, and they do.
What about playing the Axe FX into a cab in the room? How does that compare to the real amp in the room?
Rhett Schull fill in blank please. I'm dying over here.
Me too!!! I've chosen to live without the air kicking my body for more consistent and polished tone wih the Helix or Fractal.
Nathan, if you made an album of just a compilation of you and your backing tracks, or even without backing tracks, I’d happily drive to work listening to it. It’s just beautiful.
I keep reading these arguments back and forth - amp vs. modeler, modeler vs. amp - and every time I come to the same conclusion: Your playing is so damn good! Seriously, I could just listen to your noodling for hours!
You are absolutely right, its something I've been chasing down for awhile.
Modeler into studio monitors: sounds incredible, but doesn't feel "alive" or hit you in the gut.
Modeler into PA speaker: Once again, sounds good but too hi-fi, and unnatural.
Modeler into FX return of tube amp combo: Much better, the low end is there, but the high end still feels odd. Still, this is the best experience so far.
Modeler into power amp into guitar cab: Even better than the previous, especially with a Seymour Duncan PowerStage 200, because the EQ can help a lot.
Friedman Dirty Shirly Mini into 2x12 vertical cab: No comparison. Theres a reactiveness and liveliness under your fingers, also a thickness that hits your pant legs when you choke down on the strings with your palm. Theres a level of dynamics and nuance that just isnt there with modeling, even in its best scenario.
At a live show, most wont know or give a shit about the difference between your modeling amp vs the real one, so convenience wins out. But for home jamming or even in a small band jam, you can't beat real amp in the room IMO.
Also correct yeah, its so much easier to dial in a tone for a mix or composition with a modeler, something that will "sit" right. With an amp and mics, there are a million different factors that can affect your recording. So for 90% of us yeah, modeler will sound much better than recording the amp yourself, unless you want that gritty, untamed sound of the room, maybe that rawness is an intentional, conscious artistic choice.
Yeh I think those are the same experiences as me - although I think I preferred straight into the FX return, and weirdly, leaving IRs/Cabs on.....That way when you turn it up louder, it doesn't get spikey...
Bingo! Well said sir!
Agree 100%. Was at a festival show with multiple bands and everyone that played a modeler (one direct to house, line 6 cab to monitor, the other line 6 into a Mesa Boogie 22) lacked the dynamics of the other players using tube amps. The biggest difference was the initial attack of the note. The amps had a punch and pop that the modelers lacked. It’s not a volume issue, more about articulation and projection. Can modelers work live? Sure, but I think it takes a lot of behind the scenes effort and thought. Like using less gain than you do at home (these guys sounded overly compressed live), matching you tone trough the mains, as John has said in the past - no board compression or EQ?
That’s just my thoughts as a guitar player spectator. As a player I agreed with the OP above. I have never played a modeler that reacts like a great tube amp. Everything he mentions I find is true. (Even how he likes running a modeler). Still I prefer the dynamics, punch, attack and touch of a great tube amp.
That feeling of moving air is hard to simulate. But "no-one enjoys an amp as much as the person playing it" has the ring of truth to me.
Also, BTW, those chord voicings give me chills.
I think your point on volume obscuring details is huge. I feel like it is easy for me to get inspired with a real amp in the room because I am not hearing the details, I'm just getting a loud warm blanket of sound with lots of reflections.
I'm here for the Rhett jokes and all the rest is bonus
Rhett, as in that UA-cam guy with the punchable face, Rhett?
@@nigeldaddyo hahaha, agreed.
I have nothing against modelers - I have a Strymon Iridium that can sound every bit as good as it needs to. However, I still like my real amps a little better - and not just "in the room" either. Through a Suhr Reactive Load IR and headphones. I"m not a purist by any means, I just think real amps are still a little better in terms of tone and response.
There's just nothing like the amp in a room sound! So much more dynamic! But you have to capture the room sound as well because the room is actually like a speaker in itself which adds to the sound of the amp and amplifies the experience. The reason why all those old CBS records were so gr8 is because they only used a few choice placement room mics. Nice playing Johnathan 👌
Great playing, by the way. I have a Kemper 4 wired into the Helix floor with a Db+, a Keeley Compressor Pro in front, with an AT drive, OCD and Timeline in the Helix effect loops, and a Mission volume pedal. You put that through some Focal Trio 6 monitors and you can get hearing loss, just like when you fire up a 100 watt tube amp, which I have a few of. One of my 2 year live gigs, meant my amp was 30 feet away behind the stage, so I Eventually just worked with the Helix or Kemper live. I like having a choice, but I rarely fire up the amps. Heck, getting a monitor in your studio that can compete with a 12 inch cab and 100 watt amp is key to not missing the amp. Headphones and the modelers, late at night keeps my wife from hating me. A friend gave me a powered wedge monitor and that works for live when you aren’t using in-ears with a modeler. I also have a Royer 122 and an RE20, so mic’ing an amp is not an issue. Since my cabs are in another room, I am hearing that through my monitors anyway, and after profiling my favorite amp with the Kemper, I couldn’t hear a difference…through my monitors, so that amp is rarely recorded live anymore. The best bass sound I have on the Kemper, came from profiling an Ashdown amp and mixing direct signal from a Fatboy tube DI. I always fix phase issues when recording bass with a DI and amp, so the Kemper is worth every penny just for the bass. Plus, for the amp profiles, I used different combinations of mics. I think at this point, I am too lazy to record bass without a Kemper. I just bought some Dan Huff profiles for the Kemper and wouldn’t be able to afford the amps profiled, so I am done buying amps…until next tax return.
I love your sense of humor as well as your playing. 🤣
The Lonestar sounds amazing. It's definitely one I long to try some time. I play tube amps only in the room. Never tried modeling. But I have to say I love the sounds you get from both. Your Litigator fusion tones are awesome.
I once cranked a deluxe reverb to 7…… it was magical.🎸
Very interesting video, a subject I’ve been mulling over for years. I’m a helix user, previously a valve amp addict. Been on the helix since it came out, I’ve got a powercab 212, however recently I’ve got a Seymour Duncan power stage 200, helix into that then into a V30 loaded 212 and it’s like having a valve amp again. Well worth experimenting if you haven’t. Gives you the low end thump digital guitar amps don’t give you
I think ppl obsess about the tube vs digital tone... which is always a fun conversation. For me I do play differently with a tube amp... the sounds you hear and react to are then part of that recorded sound. There are definitely modeler tones I love, but it is somehow different, lol.
I think it’s good to go back and forth. Both have their purposes and uses. Both make you appreciate the other after a time apart too. When you come back to the one it’s always a nice reunion. Then when fatigue sets in go spend some time with the other. Cant be monogamous with gear.
I guess amps are designed to fill a room, modellers to sit in a mix. Both is best. I sold all my pedals when I bought a HX Effects, I'm currently in the process of buying pedals again and building a new pedaboard, just for fun. I find swapping out/buying new gear and rotating what you play inspires you to play while you mess around and try new things.
Ppl
I’d love to see you get to compare that Lonestar with the HX - Seymour Duncan SS power amp to a cab like someone mentioned below. Is it mostly just about the real cab in a room experience?
The best for me is to combine both: play my HX stomp through a tube guitar power amp/ speaker. I can replicate the tube preamp easily with the same harmonics and compression, etc.
I love modeling for practicing in headphones and recording for demo tracks. Quick easy sounds great. Amps RULE for live in person playing and gigs, they act like another instrument and have a feel and vibe modelers just don't quite have yet (very, very close) but there is something different.
Yep, couldn't have said it any better. To be honest, for most practising and playing at home, I still use an amp but a HB or Monotone Tube15 instead of the Fender/Marshall live rig. For recording demos a Headrush MX5 into Logic Pro. Damn, we live in a golden age for guitar players. I'm 50+ and when I started gigging, it was a curly lead straight from guitar to amp with maybe a channel switch on the floor for clean to dirty.
Get a Power Cab Pro + and you'll never lug an amp out of the house again.
Yes! Modelling is convincing when recorded. Your recorded sound today could easily have been modelling, we wouldn't know, but it was a cool sound.
Great video, loved the playing and thoughts. Both sound option sounded lovely. I don’t know if anyone else mentioned it but when you went back and forth between them, the Fractal was clearly wetter with a nice reverb sound. This probably gave it a bit of a leg up :)
I while back I was watching a YT vid on FRFR speakers for modellers, and this guy had possited that an FRFR speaker in a Birchwood enclosure rather than your typical plastic PA style speaker is the thing that makes for a large portion of the amp in a room feel with a modeller direct to FRFR/PA. He recommended a Friedman FRFR of some sort and you could definitely hear a noticeable difference in his videos across the several models.
I have a cheap Samson aura 15" speaker which is considerably different to the 12" PA speakers I tried - I thought that sounded closer having more bass but also I have a 2x12 Marshall with a pedal baby power amp and it's gotten to the point of it just being different sounds. I never really used tube power amps before modelling - having tried one 70s JMP and a fender hybrid, I prefered the hybrid but that was decades ago... And since have either stuck to tube preamp things into SS class AB poweramps (i.e. I still have the 100w fender roc pro or my H&K tubeman mkii or my BlackStar dual tube preamp into the pedal baby 100w).
But since I never gravitated towards valve poweramps preferring the response of the SS power amp, I probably don't know what Im talking about our what I'm missing
The Rhett Shull joke killed me! Well, luckily I was born 30+ years ago or Rhett might have done that himself already.
Awesome playing by the way!
You besmirch my awful name, make me sound so crass and technical. I do believe I cheekily said it’s ‘shagging without a rubber’ If you’re gonna throw me under the bus do it right!
And that axe tone is one of your best 👍🏻
I have a 50th anniversary jtm and jvm 1 watt... they play and record great. For me switching between modelers and amps provides different inspiration. I currently own all the beans and the helix. Pod xt still my fav. Sold my axe fx3 and Kemper. They sound great... but just didn’t enjoy them as much.
Probably because it's what we're hearing "out here" compared to what you're hearing in the room- but I liked the tone of the AXFX III much better then the real amp- and I love my Lone Star too- but that tone from the AXFX was glorious.
I love my amps and sounds they produce . When I played on stage every week for years my in ears were what I became used to using and that sound and instant feedback in a mix was what I needed to play and sound as good as I could . The stage volume of a full band blasting in a good size room is not pleasing to me to play well … but that’s just my experience and to each his own 😎 Stay well John and thanks for your honesty of your channel 😉
I think "Studio Use" and "Home Use" are likely to require different Cab EQ's, etc. Thanks to John, and Brian Wampler, I now know that many Real Amp Cabs have a steep High Cut somewhere around 3.5 - 5kHz, and that all the HX Stomp Cabs have High Cut initially set to 8kHz.
That may be great in the Studio, but maybe not so much for Home or Headphones use. It is usually too bright for my Monitoring Headphones, and it lacks "feel" and excitement I like. Switching my HX Stomp Cab Block "High Cut" settings on my Presets to the "Real Speakers" Frequency Response Chart is fixing that for me. I'm thrilled with the results so far, and it makes it easier to dial in other Amp and Effect parameters/settings. I've been removing many of the EQ Blocks I had to use previously, and switching back to less "dark" Mics. YMMV Thanks
John, would like to hear your thoughts about real amp with loadbox+IRs vs Modelers. Cheers!
As a lifelong tube amp enthusiast, I prefer your modelling sounds. You've mastered them so well they sound almost otherworldly. Tubes rarely sound bad though. And they shift air.
Stop messing with my head.
For years I've had a reverse and inverted kind of experience. I've been getting all my feels and vibes from headphones tone and then try to transfer that to either monitors in a mix or some kind of live in the room setup and it's never gonna be the same but I keep getting closer to figuring out what it is that I actually want and need from my digital units. If anyone gets a chance to feel and hear an amp through an iso box or similar setup, that really helped me understand and come to grips with a few things tone wise. We a/b lots of different stuff and everything always comes close or close enough. Still hard to beat an amp in the room experience wise. It's a Tesla vs. Driving a V8 manual.
Probably the best thing to do is to treat them as one. There's always going to be a time when you need the other format. Pete.
PS I'm firing up my Mark 4 (complete with 200 watt EV speaker) tomorrow.. Am looking forward to it....
True. 12" speakers project sound in different ways to FRFR or whatever. A more interesting comparison would be valve amp vs modeler > power amp (as in something a-la seymour duncan powerstage) > standard guitar speaker cab.
Interesting. Before modeling became mainstream, wasn't there a growing trend for speaker cabs to be isolated away in a separate soundproof room or enclosure? I understand how we tend to like the deep, full sound of an amp when playing solo. When we play alone in a room on an amp are we training our ears for tones that actually don't translate well once recorded or played live at a gig? I always thought part of practice was finding 'your sound' and being able to dial that in.
Yeh I can certainly remember reading about the guitarists from Textures using ISO-cabs....I guess that'd be a fairly extreme case where you'd want the Amp to be super cranked for some reason? For me personally I find that even having the Amp at low to moderate volumes does translate to a really pleasant playing experience....But once you're live, and if the amp is quiet live, I never really found there to be a whole bunch of difference in the experience. And I wouldn't be allowed to turn up too loud....
I've had the full helix and two powercabs running in stereo (sold the helix. I have the Ampero and one powercab. I just got the hx effects to try to replace my pedal board. I just got a Dr Z Maz 18. There is really no comparison. No matter what i do I can't get the modeler to feel right. When i crank the Dr Z, the dynamics are so freaking good. The pick attack. Just using volume of the guitar can get you clean to crunch. The feedback that can happen. I just bought the hx effects to pair with the Dr Z and unfortunately when hooked up to my amp even just in the effects loop, it takes away some highs and gain. My pedal board doesn't do that. I like my amps and pedals better. Man that is some great playing!
For what it's worth, I thought your Rhett Shull joke was pretty funny :-p Beautiful playing as always!
Just need IRs that incorporate room mics? With the cab in room, which usually on the floor and off axis, it definitely won't be the same as sitting in front of near field monitors!
Modelers: Convenient, for all intents and purposes do their job really well, great for experimenting, great for practice
Real Amp: Is the literal "authentic" experience most people are accustomed to and its hard to not have that after having it for so long
Both have their legitimate purposes on this musical journey
Here’s a suggestion I’ve made before. Amp and load box into Line 6 Power cab. Let’s you push the amp and get in the room sounds at any volume.
I started with a Kemper
but sold it in favor of a DSL100, an AC30S1 and a Bassbreaker 007. More pleasing. I got best results with the Kemper when playing through my 2x600 W PA in stereo, which also has decent sound quality, but thats also not the right think for my living room. If I want to fiddle with knobs and displays I sit down at the keyboards.
My experience with recording real amps at any volume is that, even when close miced, the room plays a huge role in the end result.
Recording in a room where the floor isn’t properly floated or which happens to have less than ideal dimensions in terms of creating standing waves at certain frequencies or other frequency anomalies, is problematic.
A mix engineer friend of mine said that when mixing budget projects he generally prefers to get guitars recorded with a modeller than guerilla recordings from whatever rehearsal room or back bedroom the recordist has access to, as beyond any potential issues with the engineering of the recording, there are no weird room resonances going on, which means the guitars can be cranked in the mix if that is the appropriate thing to do.
John did you try Hotone Ampero II Stomp hooked up to head + cab via 4 cable method? You can switch out the amps preamp for a Hotone preamp, while still using the Poweramp and cab. It's so good!
I’m a big modelling fan but your mic’d tones here do have something special to them. Not sure if it’s how you’re reacting to the sound in the room and playing into the tone more, or something else. Just seems more alive and dynamic in this case
Nail on the head with all this. I don't bother trying to tell the difference recorded any more. It's really just an in the-room thing (studio monitors vs cab speaker), which is very real. Do you get the same satisfaction if you use a modeler with the cab sim switched off, into the FX return or power amp in, and thru the cabinet?
The axe has a sharp attack that I prefer, been using one live for a couple years now. It's just so convenient I can't use anything else.
I don't play too well, but I played a Lonestar a few times and it sounded pretty amazing. I always thought Mike einziger used the flagship Rectos for their hits, but he used Lonestars; make senses "clearly"...pun intended...
Ah, I just want the FEELING of the amp in the room; the 3d sound filling up the space, the fullness of a cab doing its thing, the air coming from the speaker, etc. If I can get that without tubes, point the way! From what I've heard, FRFR/studio monitors + amp modeling doesn't get that vibe at all
That’s been my big dilemma. I’ve wanted the modeling thing to really work out but your right, it just still isn’t there yet with the FRFR stuff. Recording is a whole different thing but most guitarists want that simple “amp” feel when playing live.
Hello mate - great playing. total noob question here about modelers. Had the thr10c which was grand but mostly play real amps. Question is if you had a moment - was thinking of getting a hx stomp as moving house, I don't record music just play, house won't allow loud playing. Can I connect the helix to powered speakers so I can play in stereo? Any thoughts on quality of sound and what speakers you would recommend. My thinking was go modeler and take advantage of the stereo sound? Thanks!!
I think the big difference is that a modeler is reproducing a recorded guitar tone: the sound of an amp through a cab in a room with a mic through a board, preamp, EQ, compression, etc.
But it’s reproducing the end results.
The sound of the amp is the raw tone. Your ears are the only processing. It’s 3D, and you can feel the sound waves in your body.
It’s a different experience.
Like driving a race car on a really complicated and high tech simulator vs the real deal.
But I can’t store 200 different amps in my house with all the cabs and mics, and get them all for less than 700 dollars.
So for everything you might sacrifice, there’s another additional upside.
From this point on, I’ll probably have both.
They only reproduce the sound of a recorded guitar tone if you're using cab sims/IR's, switch them off, run them into a cab via a decent poweramp and the difference becomes very small and even indistinguishable in some cases. This may defeat the purpose for players who only need one amp, but for others who want the flexibility, versatility and switching capabilities of a modeller it's a very viable alternative. As someone who gigged with a valve amp and boutique pedals for a good few years and who now plays a helix into a 3x10 cab via a valve poweramp I really feel like I'm sacrificing nothing tone wise and if I'm honest prefer the sounds I get now, also once it's cranked up at gig levels the feel is all there for me. I understand some people may not gel well with modellers and struggle to get on with them, which I think is a lot to do with user error a lot of the time, but for me I'm extremely happy with my setup.
@@plasticmac1439 That’s an interesting approach.
Thanks for the insight!
The condom analogy! Great point. To draw it out, on side by side videos it may be hard to tell the difference between condom or no condom, but the player knows. One must ask; Is it for your pleasure? Or the person watching? If you're just noodling around by yourself, use what makes you happy.
Hi John, awesome video. I have a very offbeat question on using amps vs modelling units. how do you get your sounds so clean without any buzz or hiss at loud volume or gain on your pedals and amp? ta
I much preferred the axeFX sound in these demos, there's a certain wooliness on the real amp sound that I just dislike. The axeFX sounds clearer in my opinion
PS: outstanding playing man!
You made the right decision
theres just something soo organic about using an amp.
It’s all about trade-offs, as your video and your channel in general get across very well. A tube amp in a room is a very inspirational thing. But in a lot of circumstances a tube amp is not practical, and Satriani’s point about recording is correct. The discussion goes around in circles because really we are talking about apples and oranges.
since I'm following you for along time and appreciate your approach to music I really wonder do you play piano ? cause your approach to chords are amazing ... your answer maybe makes me practice some piano😁😁🎸🎸🎹🎹🎶🎶🤘🤘
I do play piano yes!!!
John, I hate to be the bearer of bad (good) news: this is your best sound bruh.
It's a disaster init hahaha!
Any chance you can share the axe fx preset with the lone star ?
“Nobody enjoys an amp as much as the one who’s playing it” brilliant!
I like listening to you.
Bet if all you had left was the K-Line, that Mesa and a few favourite pedals you’d be happy.
I appreciate the Rhett joke. Well done.
A lot of it is simply what you are used to, and for many of us that grew up with ‘proper’ amps, nothing else ever feels quite the same. If there is a choice i will always prefer a good amp, but many times especially these days it is simply less practical… Little by little i am finding i use the modelling more than the amp for daily practise as it is just there ready to go, and i can use headphones if it is late etc… but i’m not giving up my boogie any time…. John, i think you need to add the lonestar to the list of must keep amps - sorry… Also i really wish boogie had done a ‘lunchbox’ size version of the lonestar amp head, that would do me !
I need riffing lessons from this bloke!
I just played through my revv dynamis 7-40 with 2x 12 cab! It is just so organic. It’s got really sparkling highs and ballsy lows and a rich dimensional mid range. It really shows the limitations of modelers. It’s like taking a picture through a cell phone versus a medium format camera. There is a depth that modelers pale in comparison.
the Lonestar doesn't have the harsh pick attack that the Helix and other modelers have!
Damn... that intro says, "My game is ALWAYS improving!"
Tell me about it. I came across a video of someone doing a Marshall Silver Jubilee 2525H demo and I'm really tempted to pull the trigger. But first I'm going to see how close the Stomp will get me.
OOH - is that the smaller head or is still a big powerful one? The silver jubilee to me seems like the marshall that I might like best....but not sure I can justify it at all
@@johnnathancordy The small 20 watt one that can be lowered down to 5 watts. I think it is based on the larger silver jubilee 2555x as used by Slash. It one of the best Marshalls that I have heard with good cleans as well as some iconic tones. It was a toss up between the. 2525 Head or a Friedman Runt . But on what I've heard so far the Marshall tones are more to my liking and a steal at £725.
You made the right decision.
Hey man, should I go PRS SE Silver Sky or Sire S7?
Hahaha I've always used the same condom analogy in a valve/mod debate 🤣
LOL - I thought it might have been just Beebs...but here we are!
Both.
I have tube amps.
I have modelers.
I use them.
I enjoy them.
Works for me.
Modelling is convenient and easy. Real amps take work but rewarding. I float between the 2 ……. When I can be assed. I use the bluguitar amp 1 more these days than modelling. The size and weight is like a modeller but it feels like a real amp. Because it is
Always, but at what cost? 😂
Amps make sound where you hear a speaker compress before it releases and fills a room with a note. Idk if you call that sag? no clue. Also amps respond differently to touch. say if an amp could make vocal sounds you'd hear la le oo ahh mm yea 😆 where a modeller can only make one la.. either a loud LAAA or quiet la. Thats what im hearing 😂🤷11:08
Amps will always be the best live but modellers are a great stand in and easy to record and travel with and also use in the bedroom at a level that doesn't get you arrested.
Whichever fits the job needed is "better".
Can you discribe if there is huge/or how big difference between using real amp vs modeller into real cab with power amp? Is there difference with setup like that? Im asking because you have this experience. I only have experience with real amps. Right now a have just tube amp, luckily with attenuator so playing in bedroom I can switch to 1w what is appropriate to my room I would say and also its easier to control the tone. And I like that. But I started record at home. First with mic. Not a huge success. And while the amp has line out (post power amp) so I can go direct into sound card into PC and using IRs there and its much better. But sometimes Im working on it for hours so having tube amp ON and hearing sound from computer speaker, well not so smart and practical :D. So Im like. Should I get modeller? Playing amp in room is fun. Just wondering if it would be same (or enough) fun with modeller. Cause for recording at home Im sure its better. And I dont wanna buy some expensive loadbox and microphones etc. Dont wanna go this way. Just wondering what is your opinion. And also Im not very wealthy so everything like this is like "huge" decision :D
So yeh - in my case I almost always record with a modeller - it's just more convenient, and there are no surprises at the end of a session where you've found that your mic placement was horrid....
For recording at home (assuming you don't live somewhere with like an isolated control room etc) I'd think that a modeler is a) cheaper and b) quicker to get results with (eventually) than an Amp.
Rhett is a good player in his own way and accomplished a good bit, he’s not someone I take seriously especially when it comes to gear, tones or opinions. 😂
Oi lets not get serious I was just making a dumb joke haha
@@johnnathancordy I see where your coming from. it’s a light hearted opinion on my part that can be taken either way popular or not.
Real amps are truly amazing, can't match the feeling of playing through a loud tube Amp. That would wake up my kids though, so the Vox AC15 doesn't get turned on a lot. :D
I used to find that after playing with the helix for a while then using a real amp that I would think this is great play. Then I'd play exclusively with that for a bit then have a go at the Helix and think actually I prefer that.
Perhaps I'm just a fickle git.
Is a Boss Katana a real amp?
For me I have a helix plugged into a Harley Benton FRFR speaker and I very rarely if ever (a year ago was the last time) use my Boss Katana.
I love the range of tones I can get through the Helix and FRFR speaker.
Fact is, if people are trying to keep the amp industry alive because "it feels better", it is on seriously ropey ground.
I tend to think "real" amps are simply a lifestyle choice for jazz musicians and hipsters, doing the anti digital "authentic" thing at this point.
It is a style thing.
An expensive fashion accessory.
Lugging a expensive delicate amp to a gig when you can take a Boss GT1000 core in your gig bag, like Nita Strauss, no brainer.
A Boss Katana is a real amp I reckon yeh?
I think it definitely takes a commitment to sticking with the modeler route and an acceptance that it's going to be a slightly different experience (some good, some not so good). I do hear from people that have tried to get into using a modeler and it just doesn't work out for whatever reason - "feel" or "tone". In which case fair play, I'm not gonna force em haha
It's real enough for my wife to complain about my playing every night. In that respect it passes the "nobody enjoys an amp more than the person playing it" test.
Don't you get more of that 'amp in the room' thing from your modeler if you play at the same volume as the tube amp?
PS... FWIW coming from this end of the you tube (and I feel very guilty saying it), but I think your tone is better with the modelers.
Personally I was thinking the same thing as I said in the video that's one of the problems with a tube amp in the room, it's easy to get caught up by the room sound - the actual recorded sound ends up being way different!
I just wish companies would try to modernise tube amps.
Just make them lighter, more compact and more portable, build in aux ins, Bluetooth, line outs with state-of-the-art cab emulations, and there will a plethora of options that right now make this debate a reality, where there shouldn't be one really...
There might be a question about whether lighter amps sound different to the heavier ones? Like people are keen for the tones of the amps that have heavy speakers and heavy transformers right?
What I think you're pointing to is the fundamental dilemma between the digital sampling and modeling realm and analog audio. You have the very pure physics of digital modeling based on Nyquist's theorem and the hard cap that occurs over certain frequencies based on the sampling rate. You also have this very strange thing in modeling where the overtone series doesn't really blossom because there is nothing playing against the frequencies as they move through the air and in space. With a real guitar playing through a real amplifier with real processing blossoming into the room you get this movement of overtones and response between your hands, the pick ups of the guitar and the sound in the room that can't be modeled. It's simply not physically possible. Also on a big stage the modelled amplifiers will work but the overtone series again doesn't really blossom in the room and if you put a modeling amplifier up against a really good analog amplifier on a stage the modeling amplifier, in most situations, will simply disappear against the real amp. I think what you're pointing to his important because it's impossible to really get past that simply because of the physics. I think that we've come and incredibly long way, as you clearly demonstrate in all of your work, but I think there's still a long way to go.
Always
Can somebody explain the Rhett Shull joke? "I wonder why Rhett Shull is so pro etc..."
Modelers through actual speakers should provide exactly the "amp in the room" effect. Many confirmations of this with profilers. But many disagree on that for modelers. Which is your opinion on this?
I think the problem with the Profiler thing is that if you hear it through the same guitar cab (like you get an opportunity to do during the profiling process) the differences are quite masked by the colouration of the cab? So in that case it's quite difficult to tell them apart. I think this is part of what has driven the perception that the Profiler is more accurate in some way?
Considering how often this topic comes up, why is there not more of a market for totally transparent solid state power amps and standalone cabs? If we’re in agreement that modelers do an extremely good job replicating a real amp, shouldn’t we be able to pair a modeler with this solution and get exactly what people are after?
Great..but...have you got tinnitus?
A good valve amp will be always the true experience, i like more valves and Mesa is my favorite brand, but i never had one and i will never have, a Mesa or any valve amp. For me is the convenience of digital, i can tap on it easy, live, in stage, and recording, is simply easy. But yes, for me a real amp will be always better, but is expensive, needs maintnance, difficult to record, annoying for other people in home. If i had a expensive valve amp i would live in constant fear and anxiety, thinking when the valves will die, if humidity will blow the amp, if i will broke a valve transporting it or if it will be damaged. Nahh, not for me. But if i had the money, the division in home with proper isolation to not annoy other people in home, i would buy a Mesa for sure, oh yes i would. I am using at the momment a HX Stomp with a 100w pedal/amp from Harley Benton (Thunder 99) with stereo capabilities, a wah/volume pedal and a 2x12 Harley Benton V30 Vintage. I put all the pedals in a tinny pedalboard. Easy to transport.
Tube amps are like driving a classic muscle car, they’re a tons of fun, but not practical for daily use or work commute, amp modelers are like boring electric cars (chevy bolt, not a tesla) its not as fun as a classic muscle car but will do the job more efficiently.
The real thing is always better.
Amps are noisy. And that alone drives me nuts; no matter how much better they are than modeling on a visceral level.
Time for a coffee with Ola?
I dunno, i preferred the axe fx. The amp in the room feel is a trade off against tone, somehow. That's my feeling anyway. Probably get a torrent of sarcasm and superiority from amp purists, but meh.
I felt the same listening back to the recorded tones....It can be deceiving with the amp right there with you because you don't really have a great idea for what the recorded tone is going to end up like?
@@johnnathancordy its real art to mic recording. And these days , unnecessary lol
They can be two different beasts.
No doubt! I own the very best of both and nothing is quite like a real tube amp! It’s just got that soul to it….
Pfff , maybe it's a brainwash thing , but there's something about an good tube amp no modeler will never achief , i guess it has to do with the the warmth ( soundwise ) off the interaction between all the parts in a tube amp ( tubes , trafo's ect. ) a modeler will never be able to capture . It's also a nogstalgia thing i guess , but anyway's i have an fender tonemaster dr wich sounds great to me but not like my elfing little gem ( a dutch made 5 w top notch tube amp ) , there;s just more harmonics ect. to the sound off an real tube amp .
You‘ve got a much better tone, playing an amp… ! Just more edge…