Back in the 90's when I often flew on an ATA, L-1011 Tristar from Mzmchester UK to Orlando it had to refuel in Gander Newfoundland both ways. On one occasion on the way back the pilot asked all the kids to go to the departure gate desk so he could estimate the weight of the passengers to consider flying back non stop. He decided to go ahead with it and luckily we made it back to Manchester without a refuelling stop.
0067jon National Air 707 had a horrible crash at Gander killing all 268 aboard. They were their for a refueling stop. In this case I don't think the plane was de-iced properly. Most of the 268 killed we're service members. The passengers and crew were let off the plane and they initially thought the plane was overweight because the passengers bought gifts and other things. The investigation was determined it was due to icing. Although that particular plane was close to being overweight. You can Google crash at Gander and it will give you a lot of info.
Brian Tampa Bay , hello, I do recall that crash, I think it was 1984 or85, I personally think it was an icing issue also but the inquest said they could NOT give a definitive answer, but like you I ALWAYS thought so, but it WAS NEVER DEICED, red flag to me , but that was the decesion of PIC. RIP TO THOSE MILITARY LOSSES. CHEERS FROM NJ USA🇨🇦🇺🇸
@@briantampabay7403 And the passengers were all militairy guys coming home from a mission abroad. These were all big guys and all having their heavy gear on. This made that the total passanger weight was higher than the calculated weight using average passenger weights. In combination with the lack of deicing contributed in the crash.
Fat people should pay more, especially when one gets screwed for a kilo of luggage overweight. As a slim, fit person who works at keeping the weight down, I would prefer to be weighed as a total bundle: Person + luggage + carryon
My wife and I were weighed once (as was every other passenger) on a flight from Sydney to Norfolk Island in 1985. The aircraft was a Fokker F28 Fellowship. We were told that on flights to Norfolk Island it was essential to maximise cargo load on the plane, which considering the isolation of Norfolk Island, seemed reasonable. But must admit it felt a bit odd standing on the scales at check in.
As far as weighing, Ive experienced it two times...both times on military charter headed to the middle east. I was curious why we were being weighed, but this video made it make sense to me. A fully loaded joe is FAR heavier than your standard passenger.
Reminds me of a flight I took from Oslo to Stavanger in a 20-something seater back in the 1980's. Once we were boarded and the doors were closed the captain did an aisle walk, eyed us all over and then started moving passengers about until he was satisfied before returning to the cockpit for take-off. Probably just as well because coming into Stavanger was the bumpiest ride I've ever experienced - something close to what I imagine it must be like to be on the back of a bull in a rodeo, lol.
Flying small planes myself, I can confirm how sensitive W&B is. When I trim my plane in level flight and lean max forward, the IAS increases, when I lean back it slightly decreases 😉
I recall an internal flight where I was asked to change my pre-booked seat "due to the presence of a wide load" in the US. on that row. I didn't object, so long as I had a window seat. My move was to a seat much nearer the front - up-grade :-) - as I was getting my cabin bag down at the end of the flight I saw the "wide load, still seated by occupying the three seats. I assume the check-in staff saw the wide load and decided it was going to be easier to move me than the inquire of wide-load's weight and have a potential unpleasant discussion about rights and privacy....
Airlines know the population is getting fatter (and taller), and will upgrade the standard weights. And yet, they keep reducing seat sizes and personal room.
Pete Brown hello, but do you recall the aircraft at Charlotte which crashed at take off, it had an elevator problem, and stalled into a building, but NTSB, discovered that MINUS LUGGAGE. THE PLANE WAS OVER GROSS, by virtue over the pax weight ?, Ever since that they suggested that the arbitrarily 150 lbs pax weight be increased , have. No idea if it was followed through , Cheers From NJ🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Well, one of those things is related to savety and regulations and the other to economics. Flights are getting more expensive and many airlines counter this by cutting costs and cramming more passengers in. It sucks but at least you can buy comfort by getting a better seat. Airlines make next to nothing with the economy seats so I get why comfort in this section is not their top priority. I'd rather have them reducing the comfort than the safety.
Jutta Beckmann Comfort and passengers’ health are linked. I once had a very bad back after a transatlantic flight sitting next to someone with broad shoulders, which caused me to sit with my back tilted to one side. And it can’t be very safe to have to sit with your knees jammed up against the seat in front.
Anyone remember Aliyah? She was a pop star in the 90's. Her plane crashed leaving the Bahamas because is was stuffed with too much stuff in back, and therefore out of balance. Crashed on take off. She was so young.
I thought that some aircraft had load cells in the landing gear - so that the pilot could see the fully laden weight of the aircraft. From the individual load cell weight (front and rear) you could easily compute the C of G of the aircraft. Is this not the case? (Even tipper trucks have this technology - where they have load cells under the tipping gear and hinge point - so that the axle loads and total load are displayed to the driver - so that they don't break the legal limits for total weight and axle weight).
They certainly do at least on some aircraft. I've been on a flight where the pilot didn't like the trim of the aircraft after the luggage was thrown in, and had it rearranged, and eventually some of it wasn't allowed on and was put onto the next flight. They never tried moving passengers though, which was an oversight given the size of some of the lumps on board!
@@juststeve5542 I have had this happen several times on smaller regional jets (60 to 70 passengers). I wondered how they could tell the load was unbalanced.
Brian K depending where the cargo is in the hold, they can do the math. From what I’ve seen and been told, the holds are separated into sections or are marked, so they can take the total weight of the sections and get a balance calculation.
I can remember in the 1990's when UK "booze cruises" were an everyday thing. A coach coming back from France was weighed at 5 tonnes overweight, with a load of beers etc. The police ordered all the beers to be off loaded, then the passengers got back on the coach, and back on the weigh bridge , where the coach was still over weight. Ok it was not an aircraft, but a 53 seat coach. Like Captain Petter said about Sumo Wrestlers , this coach was full of Rugby Players.
US Dispatcher here. The standard weights I use are 190 (May Day - Halloween) and 195 (the rest of the year). When we’re weight restricted due to weather (e.g. alternate needed at destination)/length of trip/ headwinds - we usually tell our captains that if they don’t have a lot of bags (30lb for standard checked bag, 15lb for standard carryon, so 45lb/pax), we can use what the planning software gave us in bags to put a couple more pax on. We can even tell them to look at the number of children, because they’re considered “half-weights”. Our planning software doesn’t currently account for them, so we have to rely on our captains and ops staff to work with what we give them. Especially, at least for the larger carriers in the US, the dispatchers work in offices away from the airports and thus we do everything remotely through electronic communications and can’t see the pax/bags.
When I took an island hopper flight all passengers were weighed complete with luggage - a really sensible precaution since we were travelling with our (empty) scuba tanks!
Yep, once flew on a turboprop from IAD to SHD; overbooked flight. The co-pilot came thru the cabin asking weights. He got to the door and had the ground crew remove some luggage. Our bags finally showed up later the next day.
I see a number of comments mention load cells on the undercarriage. I always assumed that all modern aircraft has this built in, as it is a well known technology and not complicated at all (compered to the rest of the aircraft systems). I also think that passengers plus their luggage should be weighed, as it is unfair that a lightweight person must pay excess fees for overweight luggage while a lump of human weighing 130 Kg are allotted the same luggage weight.
Best seats in the House for an aviation nut! Good sound and usually the other patients*......errr passengers tend to be less annoying, one way or the other......😉 *Railworkers way of referring to passengers, because some of them are indeed patients...... Two of my best friends are locomotive drivers so I know their humour. We call them Lokführer or Lokomotivführer ( locomotive drivers) in Germany, and the equivalent to train driver, Triebfahrzeugführer or Tfz is not that liked among them.
Airports should just build a scale into the area in front of the check-in counter, so every passenger can be weighed. And those that have a problem with that should be shown your video about weight and balance
I used to row and my older brother was a rugby player. Both need big build. We played a round robin rugby match with my brothers team a visiting team from Germany, and the other local rowing club. Not one player out of the lot of us under 110kg. I think I was the lightest at 112kg. Get all 60 of us on your manifest and that would add a minimum of 1.2 tonnes over the average.
This is an interesting subject. I have always wondered, since weight limitations are strictly followed, how do they know they aren't overweight if they didn't check the passangers' weight and only check the baggage weight. Now im answered.
A weighbridge for trucks is very accurate and can have a large flat floor. Either use the whole boarding lounge, or two sections of floor on the walk-way to the aircraft. Computers could cope with taking the weight of walking people, I'm sure.
When I was in the French Polynesia they weight us and the luggage to carry the maximum passengers and payload in the airplane. They even switch passengers to reduce the flights between the islands. Was a great experience.
I took a commuter plane (about 40 passenger capacity) into a small airport. It was a late night flight, and I was the only passenger. I had booked the exit row over the wing for the leg room. Before takeoff, the pilot asked me to move to the rear of the plane. I was a big guy back then (300 pounds). I joked later that I had never been used as ballast before.
I remember, during my student days, all students that were about to participate in a flying laboratory session, weighed themselves prior to embarking on a Jetstream flying laboratory. My colleague and I always arranged to sit by the wing root, close to the C of G.
They need to put air plane seats in the check-in area. Like the luggage test rack. If you can't fit in the seat you need to walk, drive, float or buy another seat.
The problem I see with asking everyone's weight as a standard practice is timing: you would need to have everyone's weight before loading fuel. But fuel is loaded well before takeoff time, no? There's no guarantee that everyone's weight (or even most people's weight) has been taken before it's time to fuel up. You could use standard weights for whoever's weight you don't have yet... it would be _more_ accurate, but I don't think you could ever count on 100%.
Weighting people could be seamless. There are scales that you can legit just walk across and as you walk it gets your weight. Would be fairly simple to get one of those setup. So you could at least get total weight. Now if you didn't mind wasting time you could make sure one person on the scale as they get scanned into the plane, that would confirm their weight to their seat.
I wonder if you could integrate the scales into the metal detectors / scanners at security? It's early in the process, everyone needs to go through, and it should be possible to send the info to the airline if you scan the boarding pass . . . Would probable be slightly more complicated to reliably assign the weight of the x-rayed carry-on luggage / other stuuff to the passenger, though.
They could just put the entire check in counter on a load cell. That way, when you step up to check in/drop off baggage, they would get your weight including everything you're carrying. The person behind the counter can just zero it out after he/she has taken their seat.
And for those flights without a check-in? (For my last trip neither flight had a check-in - I had my boarding cards for both flights sorted out at home and had no check-in [as such].)
I remember two episodes of Air Crash Investigation on the Discovery Channel, whereby the accidents were related to passenger weight. The first one was a turboprop in the US carrying out a domestic flight in winter whereby the passengers had heavy clothing and the majority of the passengers would be considered obese. At the time of planning the flight the standard weights imposed by the FAA were based on the average American in the 1960s, this accident occurred some decades later whereby the average American had increased in weight considerably, as this was a small turboprop it had a big impact on the actual take-off performance, which unfortunately led to the crash on take-off. The other accident took place in Bangor, Maine in the US whereby a DC-8 charter aircraft was being used as a troop transport to bring troops home from a war zone, in that instance the aircraft was accommodated by a large number of large males and their personal equipment which was considerably more than the normal hand luggage. This was not taken into account for the flight planning and led to an accident during take-off due to incorrect weight and balance as the actual load was quite a few standard deviations out from what would have been expected. On a personal level, I have been weighed before boarding a small piston aircraft in the Caribbean, it was just myself and 8 other passengers on a 16 seat aircraft and we had to sit in very specific locations as per the reasons you described in your previous video.
My wife and I got weighed at check-in on a small island-hop flight in Fiji. Stood us on the luggage scale and recorded how much we weighed. The plane was super small -- maybe 20 passengers. Maybe you could discuss Load Sheets and what information is on them? for us non-pilots.
I have been weighed before going in an helicopter which was normal procedures for everyone regardless of weight. And when I was flying Cessna, it was also normal and mandatory procedures.
Well, I can only speak for myself but I am 71 kilogram fully dressed which place me below the standard weight in aviation. However, regardless of if you weight 25 kg or 250. A weight and balance is still required because if an incident happen and it is shown that you neglected to do weight and balance or any other procedures. It will be held against you by the investigation.
I have been asked MANY times for my personal and bag weights. I work offshore and fly on helicopters. :-) And yes, the HLO often asks people to sit in particular places, and it's usually big people forw'd, little 'ens aft.
I think everyone should be weighed to work out their luggage weight. The small planes I fly on have a luggage limit of 15kg's but I only weigh a bit over 50kg's, paying extra for a bit more luggage sucks when other people weigh a lot more then I do.
I feel like they really should weigh passengers. There are two premiums with air travel: mass and space. Why not pay per seat and per kilo? If you need three seats and weigh 200 kg, then you pay more. If you only need one seat and weigh 50 kg, then you pay less. It makes sense to me. After all, there is a limit to how much mass the plane can carry and if you take up more of that, you should pay more.
They weigh you on bush flights up in Alaska, and other times, like scenic flights in small craft. As a tour organizer, I've had to pay surcharges for some heavier passengers (of course I never told them).
"In 2013, Samoa Air became the first airline in the world to charge passengers according to their size. Those flying on the South Pacific carrier, which largely operates domestic routes, were asked to pay one Samoan tālā (around 29p) for each kilo that they, combined with their luggage, weighed."
AlecTheMotorGuy well yes. As Mentour Pilot mentions it would reduce fuel consumption, which in turn reduces the environmental impact, the turnaround time, and the operational costs for the airline (and thus possibly the average cost of the ticket for the passengers as well). And the turnaround time would not be increased right back by having to weigh each passenger individually, because you have to go through security anyway, so nothing prevents you from doing that while standing on a scale. (And those X-ray machines you have to go through in some major airports in some countries, they probably have scales built-in already.)
There was a case where a passenger was asked to purchase 2 tickets because of their large size. It got so much media attention that the airline had to release a press release to apologize for the trauma caused.
I have been weighed before on a flight from Miami to Bahamas. The pilots can't make you get weighed, the can just leave you on the ground while they take off.
@@MentourPilot Ooooohhh you damn well do. Remember when at the end of the balance video you though about what made a good UA-camr.... Well I think that this, anticipating content even before your viewers ask it, that is the definition of being a UA-camr, and most importantly, a mentour
Did they take into consideration that the airlines all squeeze the rows together so they can add another row or two of passengers?! That had to add a lot more weight.
At some point in the mid-90s to the early 2000s I used to fuel a charter 727 for Panagra Airlines that would fly from BNA to MIA or FLL in order for people to catch cruises. Flight attendants would ask everybody how much they weighed soon as they stepped onto the aircraft but it was on the honor system so I'm sure there were tolerances built in just in case someone was not being truthful. The main reason they did this is because the fuel at BNA was so much cheaper and they were trying to ferry fuel as much fuel as possible to avoid higher fuel prices in south Florida. Always had to keep the hoses hooked up until they got their final figures so they could take on as much fuel as possible. I can also remember working TWA flights going from BNA to JFK with a lot of connections to BOM India. We would always count those bags as being a lot heavier than a domestic flight. Some of those bags would weigh 200 lb of piece because so many people were taking canned goods from the United States back over India. About 3 times heavier than any domestic flight with connections out of STL.
I was seated in the middle seat on a flight and a man that measured about 2 axe handles across the sterrn squeezed into the isle seat next to me. It took at least a day for my back to recover from leaning over so that he could take up about $150.00 worth of the space that I had paid for in my seat. If this were to happen again, I would politely leave the aircraft and take another flight.
Traveling back home from Canberra Australia to Brisbane. The rain had finally come and a whole pile of poor fire fighters were on my flight. All at the back of the plane with me free seat at the front. During the entire flight it felt like we were back heavy. Good flight though including landing and takeoff.
I learned to fly on the Socata Rallye 150. It looks a bit like a 4-seater, but with 4 adults you need to carry negative fuel :-) The guy in the tower (it was only 3 feet high) had a scale. When he didn't like it he would just ask for the W&B and weigh passengers and pilot.
I don't mind if they weigh me, but Southwest is famous for defending their charging their overweight passengers double in court. The won 5 times, but will never recover their loss of PR - overweight or not.
On a scuba trip in the Caribbean we were told to put our luggage and scuba gear on the scales at check in. Then they told us to get on the scales with our gear. Last 3 passengers were told their luggage would be on the next flight. Made perfect sense. No one got singled out for being fat or bringing extra equipment. But the plane had limits. It was much clearer when we landed on a grass runway !
I was a funeral bearer for 5 years. From the occasional '6-er', our four-man team eventually had around a quarter of all lifts which needed six people to lift the coffin. Crematoria cannot now cope with some over-sized people and need to 'divert them to alternative destinations'
Everybody responding has missed the voluntary part. I’m talking about the weigh ins they do to determine the standard weight not one requested by the airline or pilot
they used to weigh passengers so they could work out the fuel strategy and where to put people. heavier people over the wings, lighter people either side
I was weighed (along with all other passengers) getting on to an BN-2 Islander aircraft - as I was the lightest I got to sit at the front just behind the pilot 😊
Hi there Mr/Captain Mentour Pilot, this is my first comment/question in your channel. This seems weird, as most of us have been watching your channel for ages, but we don’t know your name. Anyway, my question is as follows about weight calculations and fuel order reasons. For example, an aircraft is only 5/8’s full of passengers. Now, it would make sense that the meals offered on board would be the same amount of meals stored in the galley as the amount of people on board. But if the menu offered between beef and chicken, and everyone wanted chicken, then the galley would still have half it’s meal reserves in beef left over. I want to know to exactly what degree of accuracy do pilots calculate the combined mass for fuel ordering. Does all passenger aircraft, fly with total number of food service trolleys ( full or empty), if there are not many passengers for a particular flight. Does remaining fuel from previous flight come into play ? How is leftover fuel calculated, and how much extra fuel should be onboard for unpredictable headwinds and delays circling in holding patterns and the like ? I also saw one video about aircraft manufacturing and it stated about water and waste holding tanks. A certain amount of washing water is determined for each passenger, if an aircraft has less people on board, does that mean they don’t fill up the water tanks as much ? Like you said, it costs fuel to carry fuel, and same would also go for water for restroom purposes. And therefore, if an airline needs to remain competitive in a super competitive market, knowing precise weights in relation to fuel burn , would be paramount along with safety, one would imagine
Do commercial airliners have the ability to automatically move fuel around to compensate for small balance issues? Could this be used sort of like trim, and would doing so reduce drag compared to using the control surfaces?
I was travelling to Madrid and back to London with a lot of equipment which I presented as excess baggage. At London I was asked to put the boxes on the scales one by one and was told it was 44 kg which surprised me as being a bit on the light side, but then the pleasant news that BA would not be charging me for it. Returning from Madrid a few days later, I was told to put it all on together as they had more space around the scales. The total was 93 kg and I got charged for the whole lot! Made me wonder about how they estimate the weight and balance....
If you years ago I flew from Oakland California to San Diego California on a brand new Southwest airlines 737 800. There was only a few passengers aboard and we were asked to scatter around the cabin so that would balance the plane no problem. . At the end of the flight I ask the pilot if this brand new airplane could weigh itself. He invited me to sit down in the copilot seat and we discussed this for a few minutes. No this 737 800 could not wait itself because Southwest airlines did not want to pay for that additional extra cost of equipment. He pointed to another jet sitting across the apron and said well that one Canway itself and I’m not sure what kind of a plante really was. I’m not an aviation expert but I can figure a whole bunch of ways to wear that airplane through the suspension system and be really cheap and reliable , accurate and self calibrating. Do you have any thoughts on this.
Ah! Memories .... One of the best and most enjoyable commercial flights I took was from Portland Maine to Boston Mass using Bar Harbor Airlines. It was a real "puddle jumper". Both my luggage and I were weighed. The best part of the flight was into Boston itself. We actually flew past skyscrapers at window height. I am talking about ~40 yrs ago.
Worked on the CRJ 100-200 design programs and one of our DAR's (DER in the US) told me of a gate agent that had a customer that was extremely over weight, and was wondering what to do. Our DAR said that not only for weight and balance but also for the seat certification if another person could have fitted in the remaining seat (2+2 Cabin) this would be over the designed capacity of the seat, So said passenger got the whole seat + a seat belt extender.
Added to all of this, is the increase in number of seats (decrease in individual space) that has been occurring over the years to get more paying passengers.
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I have heard that Japan Airlines once requested all passenger to go to toilet before boarding.
I have been weighed with my luggage for a twin prop shuttle flight in Tonga. It was not a large plane. Tongans can vary considerably in size. The late King of Tonga was proud of reducing his weight from 200kg. Many of his subjects followed his example.
I fly alot in a brittian Norman islander which means being weighed before flight. Also means you sometimes get to sit beside the pilot to balance the plane. Very cool experience.
Has the airline companies suggested or floated the idea to the manufacturers to install/incorporate load cells in the landing gear and incorporated in the flooring in sections? Landing gear will give you the overall weight, the flooring will be able to give you general weights located in sections for the aircraft... I had an opportunity in my past to work with load cells, they are impressive little items.
Boarding a small plane on a business trip to the DFW area, said to me: "I'll need you to sit up front in the copilot seat to balance the plane because you're the biggest." Fine, I knew I was the largest person at about 235lbs but I always wonder how a female would have responded, or if the pilot would have hopefully rephrased his statement to a female. I didnt question it and had a great seat on the three hour flight from KSUX to KFWS, even with the pilot nearly landing at the wrong airport...
@@Stephanie-vt8xiyeah, I didnt really word it well. I didn't care but say it to the wrong person and whatch out...I'm also 6'2" so sitting with some extra leg room was a nice change of pace when flying.
No you weren't crying you were taking offense to the greatest upgrade in the history of upgrades. Snowflakes don't really cry they just pretend in order to bully everyone.
@@sebastianlabusch465 Well, that is why they should keep the old method too. Redundancy improves safety. When we are talking about the CoG and take off weight, i think these are way too important factors to ignore, just because an extra safety system may add to maintenance costs.
@@sebastianlabusch465 You can add strain gauged to existing structural members so there would be no weakening of the landing gear. Also the same system would be able to record how hard the landing was on each of the gears so would be an additional safety feature.
Yes strain gauges would be good and as pointed out they could also check for hard landings . You could also check the strain gauges by noting the weight before and after refueling. But the only problem I see is you would have to load your passengers and baggage then check weight then calculate fuel requirements then refuel or adjust fuel on board. I don't think passengers will like the delay.
Peterr, Thanks for making a video answering my question. How about a floor scale at the ticketing booth or at the gate? They weigh your luggage now at both.
I always wondered about this. I'm a larger person, 270 pounds (123 Kg.) Years ago, I was on a flight where there seemed to be an uncanny number of people of similar size. The plane was a Super 80, and it was a pretty short flight, less than 2 hours, so certainly there was not a full fuel load. This particular flight also was not full, maybe 75%.
When some sport team takes a flight, its info is normally reflected on the booking record by the reservation section staff. And in case that it is composed of heavy weight players, the special note is inputted there and after the seat assignment is released to the airport section, this info is conveyed to operation & cargo sections through passenger section at preflight briefing, and after that it is conveyed to the pilots through operation section staff at their own preflight briefing. When these players show up at check-in counter or boarding gate and their total actual weight seems to be enough different from the estimated one, the revised total weight must be informed immediately to operation & cargo sections for weight & balance reason. I worked both as a reservation staff and as an airport staff of a major airline for 19 years (until 2010) and things were working this way at that time. I heard from some senior staff that several decades ago one cargo flight which loaded some heavy animals like horses which were moving on board in some way ( I don't remember the detail about how such a thing happened) fell down because it was losing a proper weight balance during the flight. Therefore, we cannot joke on this matter.
I sometimes fly the local very small commuter airline. They fly the Cessna Grand Caravan and actually weigh each passenger on a scale before the flight. Not very high tech but it works.
Airlines either use weights divided into male/female/child or adult/child. The adult weight is usually the same as the male weight. In addition to that, which Petter did not mention, the baggage weight is needed. There are two different methods here, standard weights (such as for pax weight) or actual weight. Some airlines use standard baggae weights, usually with different weights for domestic and international, and perhaps long haul as well. A domestic bag may for example have a standard weight of 14 kilos, while an international bag might be 17. These are examples, actual weights used may vary. Other airlines weigh each checked in piece at check-in and add the actual weights into the DCS system (the system that does check-in and weight calculations). In general, when loading, the exact weight of each individual piece is not known, so an average weight (either the standard weight or the average of the total actual baggage weight) is used per piece when calculating. The system then adds a healthy buffer to absorb any deviations from this. Cargo is weighed per piece or ULD (per container or pallet for example), so the accuracy there is high. Some airlines might have other ways to do these things, but this is a quick and dirty summary of some common methods.
I recall a US based accident in the 80's where 2 college football teams were traveling and standard wt was used leading to an overweight/out of CG takeoff was attempted, resulting in the accident.
Can't believe aircraft do not have onboard load weighing systems (built in) that give load weights on each wheel group? This is something off-road mining trucks have had for 2 decades in much rougher conditions. They are robust and accurate and not a heavy device, would be easy to incorporate into aircraft crammed with computer systems already. No excuses for modern aircraft not to have this... along with GPS tracking on all flights. It's 2020 FFS...
KlM looked at this in the 80s but the fuel is ordered based against tickets presold so was scrapped, if airlines did use thjs type of system and any failed it would also negate the system and any delays would outweigh the benefits of flying with the average additional 1.5 tons of fuel on an average sized plane currently carried...
@@stevenlarratt3638 They should use it for safety as well as cost. With a load weighing system installed, tracking weight statistics would become easy and accurate resulting in more precise passenger and luggage weight trends over time. One cost saving effect would be improved fueling calculations with actual data to back it up. Computers have come along way since 1980.
Years ago I flew to a Caribbean Island on a roughly 20 seat turbo prop and everyone had to step on the baggage scale. When I asked about this I was told that the price of fuel was much higher on the Island and that they fueled up to the exact Maximum takeoff weight so as to buy as little fuel as possible on the Island for the return flight.
I was going to post this question in the comments section of one of your latest videos. Glad you beat me to it! (I was joking to myself that the full body scan at security is actually doing this.)
The use of standard weight uses the same principle as life insurance actuaries use. It is called the law of large numbers. It state that the greater the number used to calculate the average, the closer it comes to the actual.
Here is a question I got on social media: If a captain or the crew thinks or suspect that a passenger has the new Corona virus or is ill in any other means that makes hen unfit for flight can the crew and the captain then deny the passenger to fly? I answered that with an yes since I know that every captain is in complete command of his or hers aircraft and has the ultimate call on whom hen let aboard and I thought everyone would be fine with that. But some raised the opinion that this might be "unfair" to them if the captains can deny them boarding for reasons they do not see "valid" and thus I wanted to check it here. And maybe you can do a video about what kind of authorities a captain and hens crew has in cases of suspected illness and if there are any cases where the captains can not, should not or would not deny a suspected passenger boarding due to it being "unfair" like say the risk of discrimination. Johan.
I was weighed for a flight from Grand Canyon airport to Page AZ. It was a small prop plane. The FO looked to be the same age as my teen children. It was likely his first job out of middle school. Or maybe flight school.
There was a flight a few years ago from Liverpool that was full of male skiers and their equipment. The airline had to offload around 20 people to be able to take off.
I flew several times with MAAF - Missionary Aviation Fellowship in Africa. Plane had room for only two passengers plus cargo of medicines, hospital supplies etc. It was normal for the lightest person to sit in the back with the cargo and the heavier one to sit alongside the pilot to balance out the load. Best flights ever. Overflying the Serengheti and the Ngoro Goro crater. So bumpy though. Not for the faint hearted!
Back in the 90's when I often flew on an ATA, L-1011 Tristar from Mzmchester UK to Orlando it had to refuel in Gander Newfoundland both ways.
On one occasion on the way back the pilot asked all the kids to go to the departure gate desk so he could estimate the weight of the passengers to consider flying back non stop.
He decided to go ahead with it and luckily we made it back to Manchester without a refuelling stop.
0067jon National Air 707 had a horrible crash at Gander killing all 268 aboard. They were their for a refueling stop. In this case I don't think the plane was de-iced properly. Most of the 268 killed we're service members. The passengers and crew were let off the plane and they initially thought the plane was overweight because the passengers bought gifts and other things. The investigation was determined it was due to icing. Although that particular plane was close to being overweight. You can Google crash at Gander and it will give you a lot of info.
Brian Tampa Bay , hello, I do recall that crash, I think it was 1984 or85, I personally think it was an icing issue also but the inquest said they could NOT give a definitive answer, but like you I ALWAYS thought so, but it WAS NEVER DEICED, red flag to me , but that was the decesion of PIC. RIP TO THOSE MILITARY LOSSES. CHEERS FROM NJ USA🇨🇦🇺🇸
Leighton Samms Cheers buddy
@@briantampabay7403 And the passengers were all militairy guys coming home from a mission abroad. These were all big guys and all having their heavy gear on. This made that the total passanger weight was higher than the calculated weight using average passenger weights. In combination with the lack of deicing contributed in the crash.
I'm not fat, I'm just spatially significant.
I have a large gravitational field strength.
@@SomeNot I'm Trans-slim
No, you are fat and also spatially significant. ;)
Fat people should pay more, especially when one gets screwed for a kilo of luggage overweight. As a slim, fit person who works at keeping the weight down, I would prefer to be weighed as a total bundle:
Person + luggage + carryon
Im not fat, im big boned
My wife and I were weighed once (as was every other passenger) on a flight from Sydney to Norfolk Island in 1985. The aircraft was a Fokker F28 Fellowship. We were told that on flights to Norfolk Island it was essential to maximise cargo load on the plane, which considering the isolation of Norfolk Island, seemed reasonable. But must admit it felt a bit odd standing on the scales at check in.
As far as weighing, Ive experienced it two times...both times on military charter headed to the middle east. I was curious why we were being weighed, but this video made it make sense to me. A fully loaded joe is FAR heavier than your standard passenger.
Reminds me of a flight I took from Oslo to Stavanger in a 20-something seater back in the 1980's. Once we were boarded and the doors were closed the captain did an aisle walk, eyed us all over and then started moving passengers about until he was satisfied before returning to the cockpit for take-off. Probably just as well because coming into Stavanger was the bumpiest ride I've ever experienced - something close to what I imagine it must be like to be on the back of a bull in a rodeo, lol.
Flying small planes myself, I can confirm how sensitive W&B is. When I trim my plane in level flight and lean max forward, the IAS increases, when I lean back it slightly decreases 😉
I recall an internal flight where I was asked to change my pre-booked seat "due to the presence of a wide load" in the US. on that row. I didn't object, so long as I had a window seat. My move was to a seat much nearer the front - up-grade :-) - as I was getting my cabin bag down at the end of the flight I saw the "wide load, still seated by occupying the three seats. I assume the check-in staff saw the wide load and decided it was going to be easier to move me than the inquire of wide-load's weight and have a potential unpleasant discussion about rights and privacy....
Oof, this sounds kind of awkward for all involved.
I can guess which country this took place in.
Airlines know the population is getting fatter (and taller), and will upgrade the standard weights.
And yet, they keep reducing seat sizes and personal room.
Pete Brown hello, but do you recall the aircraft at Charlotte which crashed at take off, it had an elevator problem, and stalled into a building, but NTSB, discovered that MINUS LUGGAGE. THE PLANE WAS OVER GROSS, by virtue over the pax weight ?, Ever since that they suggested that the arbitrarily 150 lbs pax weight be increased , have. No idea if it was followed through , Cheers From NJ🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
@@flybyairplane3528 I don't think you understood my point.
Well, one of those things is related to savety and regulations and the other to economics. Flights are getting more expensive and many airlines counter this by cutting costs and cramming more passengers in. It sucks but at least you can buy comfort by getting a better seat. Airlines make next to nothing with the economy seats so I get why comfort in this section is not their top priority. I'd rather have them reducing the comfort than the safety.
Jutta Beckmann
Comfort and passengers’ health are linked. I once had a very bad back after a transatlantic flight sitting next to someone with broad shoulders, which caused me to sit with my back tilted to one side.
And it can’t be very safe to have to sit with your knees jammed up against the seat in front.
So airline seats can cost less. If you don’t mind paying more for more space then buy 2 seats or buy first class.
Anyone remember Aliyah? She was a pop star in the 90's. Her plane crashed leaving the Bahamas because is was stuffed with too much stuff in back, and therefore out of balance. Crashed on take off. She was so young.
I thought that some aircraft had load cells in the landing gear - so that the pilot could see the fully laden weight of the aircraft. From the individual load cell weight (front and rear) you could easily compute the C of G of the aircraft. Is this not the case? (Even tipper trucks have this technology - where they have load cells under the tipping gear and hinge point - so that the axle loads and total load are displayed to the driver - so that they don't break the legal limits for total weight and axle weight).
They certainly do at least on some aircraft. I've been on a flight where the pilot didn't like the trim of the aircraft after the luggage was thrown in, and had it rearranged, and eventually some of it wasn't allowed on and was put onto the next flight. They never tried moving passengers though, which was an oversight given the size of some of the lumps on board!
@@juststeve5542 I have had this happen several times on smaller regional jets (60 to 70 passengers). I wondered how they could tell the load was unbalanced.
@@jstephens2758 They weigh the cargo.
@@kristensorensen2219 that would tell the weight not the front/rear balance
Brian K depending where the cargo is in the hold, they can do the math. From what I’ve seen and been told, the holds are separated into sections or are marked, so they can take the total weight of the sections and get a balance calculation.
I can remember in the 1990's when UK "booze cruises" were an everyday thing. A coach coming back from France was weighed at 5 tonnes overweight, with a load of beers etc. The police ordered all the beers to be off loaded, then the passengers got back on the coach, and back on the weigh bridge , where the coach was still over weight. Ok it was not an aircraft, but a 53 seat coach. Like Captain Petter said about Sumo Wrestlers , this coach was full of Rugby Players.
US Dispatcher here. The standard weights I use are 190 (May Day - Halloween) and 195 (the rest of the year). When we’re weight restricted due to weather (e.g. alternate needed at destination)/length of trip/ headwinds - we usually tell our captains that if they don’t have a lot of bags (30lb for standard checked bag, 15lb for standard carryon, so 45lb/pax), we can use what the planning software gave us in bags to put a couple more pax on. We can even tell them to look at the number of children, because they’re considered “half-weights”. Our planning software doesn’t currently account for them, so we have to rely on our captains and ops staff to work with what we give them. Especially, at least for the larger carriers in the US, the dispatchers work in offices away from the airports and thus we do everything remotely through electronic communications and can’t see the pax/bags.
When I took an island hopper flight all passengers were weighed complete with luggage - a really sensible precaution since we were travelling with our (empty) scuba tanks!
Yep, once flew on a turboprop from IAD to SHD; overbooked flight. The co-pilot came thru the cabin asking weights. He got to the door and had the ground crew remove some luggage. Our bags finally showed up later the next day.
I see a number of comments mention load cells on the undercarriage. I always assumed that all modern aircraft has this built in, as it is a well known technology and not complicated at all (compered to the rest of the aircraft systems). I also think that passengers plus their luggage should be weighed, as it is unfair that a lightweight person must pay excess fees for overweight luggage while a lump of human weighing 130 Kg are allotted the same luggage weight.
So that's why I sometimes get asked to sit right over the wing on some small planes...
Yep, that might be the reason
Wouldn’t a longer plane like the A350-1000 and the 777-9 be more effected by unbalanced seating?
Best seats in the House for an aviation nut! Good sound and usually the other patients*......errr passengers tend to be less annoying, one way or the other......😉
*Railworkers way of referring to passengers, because some of them are indeed patients...... Two of my best friends are locomotive drivers so I know their humour.
We call them Lokführer or Lokomotivführer ( locomotive drivers) in Germany, and the equivalent to train driver, Triebfahrzeugführer or Tfz is not that liked among them.
@@jeffluo8960 Law of averages, could only have an effect if you had a group of people 20+ 20+ off.
"John, if you're going to get up to use the toilet, please tell us up front so we can move some things around to compensate" heh
The crash of Arrow Air Flight 1285 in 1985 was partially blamed on the misjudgement of passenger's weight.
Indeed.
Indeed. One of the outcomes of the investigation (and mentioned in the video) was that standard weights need to be regularly reviewed.
Using standard weights in this day and age is ridiculous. So 20th century.
Airports should just build a scale into the area in front of the check-in counter, so every passenger can be weighed. And those that have a problem with that should be shown your video about weight and balance
I used to row and my older brother was a rugby player. Both need big build. We played a round robin rugby match with my brothers team a visiting team from Germany, and the other local rowing club. Not one player out of the lot of us under 110kg. I think I was the lightest at 112kg. Get all 60 of us on your manifest and that would add a minimum of 1.2 tonnes over the average.
Odd question. With weight being such an important consideration, why don't tugs (the under the nose gear type) have a built-in tongue weight meter?
This is an interesting subject. I have always wondered, since weight limitations are strictly followed, how do they know they aren't overweight if they didn't check the passangers' weight and only check the baggage weight. Now im answered.
I hope it makes sense now.
A weighbridge for trucks is very accurate and can have a large flat floor. Either use the whole boarding lounge, or two sections of floor on the walk-way to the aircraft. Computers could cope with taking the weight of walking people, I'm sure.
When I was in the French Polynesia they weight us and the luggage to carry the maximum passengers and payload in the airplane. They even switch passengers to reduce the flights between the islands. Was a great experience.
That's cool we were just talking about weight and balance in my AMT classes today.
I took a commuter plane (about 40 passenger capacity) into a small airport. It was a late night flight, and I was the only passenger. I had booked the exit row over the wing for the leg room. Before takeoff, the pilot asked me to move to the rear of the plane. I was a big guy back then (300 pounds). I joked later that I had never been used as ballast before.
Just as long as the passenger weight is not shown,. Nobody wants to be judged when they get weighed
I remember, during my student days, all students that were about to participate in a flying laboratory session, weighed themselves prior to embarking on a Jetstream flying laboratory. My colleague and I always arranged to sit by the wing root, close to the C of G.
They need to put air plane seats in the check-in area. Like the luggage test rack. If you can't fit in the seat you need to walk, drive, float or buy another seat.
With the additional feature of an ejector to remove the cork-in-the-bottle passenger.
"To dive straight into it" after a 1:58 intro. lol
insylem thank you. Have your like
Yea, that's what sucks about this channel
The problem I see with asking everyone's weight as a standard practice is timing: you would need to have everyone's weight before loading fuel. But fuel is loaded well before takeoff time, no? There's no guarantee that everyone's weight (or even most people's weight) has been taken before it's time to fuel up.
You could use standard weights for whoever's weight you don't have yet... it would be _more_ accurate, but I don't think you could ever count on 100%.
I've seen planes take a fuel load but then have more fuel put on AGAIN, and it takes much less time than the initial fueling.
Weighting people could be seamless. There are scales that you can legit just walk across and as you walk it gets your weight. Would be fairly simple to get one of those setup. So you could at least get total weight.
Now if you didn't mind wasting time you could make sure one person on the scale as they get scanned into the plane, that would confirm their weight to their seat.
I wonder if you could integrate the scales into the metal detectors / scanners at security?
It's early in the process, everyone needs to go through, and it should be possible to send the info to the airline if you scan the boarding pass . . .
Would probable be slightly more complicated to reliably assign the weight of the x-rayed carry-on luggage / other stuuff to the passenger, though.
They could just put the entire check in counter on a load cell. That way, when you step up to check in/drop off baggage, they would get your weight including everything you're carrying.
The person behind the counter can just zero it out after he/she has taken their seat.
And for those flights without a check-in? (For my last trip neither flight had a check-in - I had my boarding cards for both flights sorted out at home and had no check-in [as such].)
I remember two episodes of Air Crash Investigation on the Discovery Channel, whereby the accidents were related to passenger weight. The first one was a turboprop in the US carrying out a domestic flight in winter whereby the passengers had heavy clothing and the majority of the passengers would be considered obese. At the time of planning the flight the standard weights imposed by the FAA were based on the average American in the 1960s, this accident occurred some decades later whereby the average American had increased in weight considerably, as this was a small turboprop it had a big impact on the actual take-off performance, which unfortunately led to the crash on take-off.
The other accident took place in Bangor, Maine in the US whereby a DC-8 charter aircraft was being used as a troop transport to bring troops home from a war zone, in that instance the aircraft was accommodated by a large number of large males and their personal equipment which was considerably more than the normal hand luggage. This was not taken into account for the flight planning and led to an accident during take-off due to incorrect weight and balance as the actual load was quite a few standard deviations out from what would have been expected.
On a personal level, I have been weighed before boarding a small piston aircraft in the Caribbean, it was just myself and 8 other passengers on a 16 seat aircraft and we had to sit in very specific locations as per the reasons you described in your previous video.
My wife and I got weighed at check-in on a small island-hop flight in Fiji. Stood us on the luggage scale and recorded how much we weighed. The plane was super small -- maybe 20 passengers. Maybe you could discuss Load Sheets and what information is on them? for us non-pilots.
I have been weighed before going in an helicopter which was normal procedures for everyone regardless of weight. And when I was flying Cessna, it was also normal and mandatory procedures.
working offshore they always weighed us before getting on helicopters... of course mostly the type of people who didnt care..
Well, I can only speak for myself but I am 71 kilogram fully dressed which place me below the standard weight in aviation.
However, regardless of if you weight 25 kg or 250. A weight and balance is still required because if an incident happen and it is shown that you neglected to do weight and balance or any other procedures. It will be held against you by the investigation.
I was weighed before boarding a Boeing 707 in 1969 when I was seven years old. It was a charter airline, London to Toronto.
I have been asked MANY times for my personal and bag weights. I work offshore and fly on helicopters. :-) And yes, the HLO often asks people to sit in particular places, and it's usually big people forw'd, little 'ens aft.
I think everyone should be weighed to work out their luggage weight. The small planes I fly on have a luggage limit of 15kg's but I only weigh a bit over 50kg's, paying extra for a bit more luggage sucks when other people weigh a lot more then I do.
Tim Bennett I would gladly pay extra if I got a bigger seat
I feel like they really should weigh passengers. There are two premiums with air travel: mass and space. Why not pay per seat and per kilo? If you need three seats and weigh 200 kg, then you pay more. If you only need one seat and weigh 50 kg, then you pay less.
It makes sense to me. After all, there is a limit to how much mass the plane can carry and if you take up more of that, you should pay more.
I just wear all my overweight clothes, no one can ask me to undress except security and the airline doesn't have that kind of right to do so
They weigh you on bush flights up in Alaska, and other times, like scenic flights in small craft. As a tour organizer, I've had to pay surcharges for some heavier passengers (of course I never told them).
Yep, that’s where it’s becoming very important.
"In 2013, Samoa Air became the first airline in the world to charge passengers according to their size. Those flying on the South Pacific carrier, which largely operates domestic routes, were asked to pay one Samoan tālā (around 29p) for each kilo that they, combined with their luggage, weighed."
Александр Евстюгов I wish more companies would adopted this model.
AlecTheMotorGuy well yes. As Mentour Pilot mentions it would reduce fuel consumption, which in turn reduces the environmental impact, the turnaround time, and the operational costs for the airline (and thus possibly the average cost of the ticket for the passengers as well).
And the turnaround time would not be increased right back by having to weigh each passenger individually, because you have to go through security anyway, so nothing prevents you from doing that while standing on a scale. (And those X-ray machines you have to go through in some major airports in some countries, they probably have scales built-in already.)
There was a case where a passenger was asked to purchase 2 tickets because of their large size. It got so much media attention that the airline had to release a press release to apologize for the trauma caused.
I have been weighed before on a flight from Miami to Bahamas. The pilots can't make you get weighed, the can just leave you on the ground while they take off.
That leads to the question: Where do you store the scale on the 737? ;)
Oh my God....You literaly read everybody's mind. I was EXACTLY thinking about this when you published your video about weight and balance.
I do my best 😉
Yes, I was thinking about that in the ‘balance’ video.
@@MentourPilot Ooooohhh you damn well do. Remember when at the end of the balance video you though about what made a good UA-camr.... Well I think that this, anticipating content even before your viewers ask it, that is the definition of being a UA-camr, and most importantly, a mentour
I’m definitley using that line:
”My weight has been upgraded”
First I just got to put on some weight :p
Did they take into consideration that the airlines all squeeze the rows together so they can add another row or two of passengers?! That had to add a lot more weight.
As far as weight distribution, Southwest allows passengers to choose their own seats. It seems to not be important.
At some point in the mid-90s to the early 2000s I used to fuel a charter 727 for Panagra Airlines that would fly from BNA to MIA or FLL in order for people to catch cruises. Flight attendants would ask everybody how much they weighed soon as they stepped onto the aircraft but it was on the honor system so I'm sure there were tolerances built in just in case someone was not being truthful. The main reason they did this is because the fuel at BNA was so much cheaper and they were trying to ferry fuel as much fuel as possible to avoid higher fuel prices in south Florida. Always had to keep the hoses hooked up until they got their final figures so they could take on as much fuel as possible.
I can also remember working TWA flights going from BNA to JFK with a lot of connections to BOM India. We would always count those bags as being a lot heavier than a domestic flight. Some of those bags would weigh 200 lb of piece because so many people were taking canned goods from the United States back over India. About 3 times heavier than any domestic flight with connections out of STL.
What's next? Cavity searches?
I was seated in the middle seat on a flight and a man that measured about 2 axe handles across the sterrn squeezed into the isle seat next to me. It took at least a day for my back to recover from leaning over so that he could take up about $150.00 worth of the space that I had paid for in my seat. If this were to happen again, I would politely leave the aircraft and take another flight.
I always wondered this and thought about why it isn't common practice to know total weight distribution for more efficiency.
Yes Misscalculated Wheights can be Fatal. There have ben several Accidents with Small Aircraft Props mostly
Traveling back home from Canberra Australia to Brisbane. The rain had finally come and a whole pile of poor fire fighters were on my flight. All at the back of the plane with me free seat at the front. During the entire flight it felt like we were back heavy.
Good flight though including landing and takeoff.
I learned to fly on the Socata Rallye 150. It looks a bit like a 4-seater, but with 4 adults you need to carry negative fuel :-)
The guy in the tower (it was only 3 feet high) had a scale. When he didn't like it he would just ask for the W&B and weigh passengers and pilot.
I don't mind if they weigh me, but Southwest is famous for defending their charging their overweight passengers double in court. The won 5 times, but will never recover their loss of PR - overweight or not.
When I fly around the island in the Philippines on small turbo prop, they have passengers get on scale after the luggage.
Yeah this channel is my new hobby. Than you very much for all these videos.
On a scuba trip in the Caribbean we were told to put our luggage and scuba gear on the scales at check in. Then they told us to get on the scales with our gear. Last 3 passengers were told their luggage would be on the next flight. Made perfect sense. No one got singled out for being fat or bringing extra equipment. But the plane had limits. It was much clearer when we landed on a grass runway !
I was a funeral bearer for 5 years. From the occasional '6-er', our four-man team eventually had around a quarter of all lifts which needed six people to lift the coffin. Crematoria cannot now cope with some over-sized people and need to 'divert them to alternative destinations'
when I was in the navy, we had to be weigh before every flight especially with small aircraft like an Embrear E121.
Yes, Southwest does it. I have been weighed because I'm a rather tall guy. I got weighted on a Q400.
Thanks for answering my question.
The idea of the weighing being voluntary makes it skewed, if I was obese I wouldn’t volunteer to get on a scale.
I am obese, and I'd gladly step on a scale of the safety of the flight was at risk.
Everybody responding has missed the voluntary part. I’m talking about the weigh ins they do to determine the standard weight not one requested by the airline or pilot
I was thinking the same.
It seems like a very bad way of estimating average weight.
they used to weigh passengers so they could work out the fuel strategy and where to put people.
heavier people over the wings, lighter people either side
I was weighed (along with all other passengers) getting on to an BN-2 Islander aircraft - as I was the lightest I got to sit at the front just behind the pilot 😊
Hi there Mr/Captain Mentour Pilot, this is my first comment/question in your channel. This seems weird, as most of us have been watching your channel for ages, but we don’t know your name. Anyway, my question is as follows about weight calculations and fuel order reasons. For example, an aircraft is only 5/8’s full of passengers. Now, it would make sense that the meals offered on board would be the same amount of meals stored in the galley as the amount of people on board. But if the menu offered between beef and chicken, and everyone wanted chicken, then the galley would still have half it’s meal reserves in beef left over. I want to know to exactly what degree of accuracy do pilots calculate the combined mass for fuel ordering. Does all passenger aircraft, fly with total number of food service trolleys ( full or empty), if there are not many passengers for a particular flight. Does remaining fuel from previous flight come into play ? How is leftover fuel calculated, and how much extra fuel should be onboard for unpredictable headwinds and delays circling in holding patterns and the like ? I also saw one video about aircraft manufacturing and it stated about water and waste holding tanks. A certain amount of washing water is determined for each passenger, if an aircraft has less people on board, does that mean they don’t fill up the water tanks as much ? Like you said, it costs fuel to carry fuel, and same would also go for water for restroom purposes. And therefore, if an airline needs to remain competitive in a super competitive market, knowing precise weights in relation to fuel burn , would be paramount along with safety, one would imagine
I have been weighed before a commercial flight... mind you, it was a Turbo Otter on floats!
Hello, what about meteo briefing in your country, where get TAF and METAR about airport you fly to?
I have been on a DeHaviland Otter and all passengers were weighed before boarding. I ended up in the right seat on that flight 👍
Do commercial airliners have the ability to automatically move fuel around to compensate for small balance issues? Could this be used sort of like trim, and would doing so reduce drag compared to using the control surfaces?
I was travelling to Madrid and back to London with a lot of equipment which I presented as excess baggage. At London I was asked to put the boxes on the scales one by one and was told it was 44 kg which surprised me as being a bit on the light side, but then the pleasant news that BA would not be charging me for it. Returning from Madrid a few days later, I was told to put it all on together as they had more space around the scales. The total was 93 kg and I got charged for the whole lot! Made me wonder about how they estimate the weight and balance....
If you years ago I flew from Oakland California to San Diego California on a brand new Southwest airlines 737 800. There was only a few passengers aboard and we were asked to scatter around the cabin so that would balance the plane no problem.
. At the end of the flight I ask the pilot if this brand new airplane could weigh itself. He invited me to sit down in the copilot seat and we discussed this for a few minutes. No this 737 800 could not wait itself because Southwest airlines did not want to pay for that additional extra cost of equipment. He pointed to another jet sitting across the apron and said well that one Canway itself and I’m not sure what kind of a plante really was. I’m not an aviation expert but I can figure a whole bunch of ways to wear that airplane through the suspension system and be really cheap and reliable , accurate and self calibrating. Do you have any thoughts on this.
Ah! Memories .... One of the best and most enjoyable commercial flights I took was from Portland Maine to Boston Mass using Bar Harbor Airlines. It was a real "puddle jumper". Both my luggage and I were weighed. The best part of the flight was into Boston itself. We actually flew past skyscrapers at window height. I am talking about ~40 yrs ago.
Worked on the CRJ 100-200 design programs and one of our DAR's (DER in the US) told me of a gate agent that had a customer that was extremely over weight, and was wondering what to do. Our DAR said that not only for weight and balance but also for the seat certification if another person could have fitted in the remaining seat (2+2 Cabin) this would be over the designed capacity of the seat, So said passenger got the whole seat + a seat belt extender.
Put the weight sensor on the landing gear, this way you can get a total weight and then load on each gear.
Did you not watch the video?
Not sure if you’ve done a video on this before but could you do one on how fuel is calculated to reach a destination? Thanks
Added to all of this, is the increase in number of seats (decrease in individual space) that has been occurring over the years to get more paying passengers.
I have heard that Japan Airlines once requested all passenger to go to toilet before boarding.
...Make sure you get a receipt, or else they might surgically extract it otherwise...
True, and so did ANA too! But I don't think it is linked to W&B. More likely to limit usage of toilets on board and avoid traffic jam when boarding
I have been weighed with my luggage for a twin prop shuttle flight in Tonga. It was not a large plane. Tongans can vary considerably in size. The late King of Tonga was proud of reducing his weight from 200kg. Many of his subjects followed his example.
I fly alot in a brittian Norman islander which means being weighed before flight. Also means you sometimes get to sit beside the pilot to balance the plane. Very cool experience.
Has the airline companies suggested or floated the idea to the manufacturers to install/incorporate load cells in the landing gear and incorporated in the flooring in sections? Landing gear will give you the overall weight, the flooring will be able to give you general weights located in sections for the aircraft... I had an opportunity in my past to work with load cells, they are impressive little items.
Boarding a small plane on a business trip to the DFW area, said to me: "I'll need you to sit up front in the copilot seat to balance the plane because you're the biggest."
Fine, I knew I was the largest person at about 235lbs but I always wonder how a female would have responded, or if the pilot would have hopefully rephrased his statement to a female.
I didnt question it and had a great seat on the three hour flight from KSUX to KFWS, even with the pilot nearly landing at the wrong airport...
Snowflake gets to sit in the cockpit because he is a BFF. .....Snowflake cries.
bonus! But yea, a bit of a rude way to say it :s
@@Stephanie-vt8xiyeah, I didnt really word it well. I didn't care but say it to the wrong person and whatch out...I'm also 6'2" so sitting with some extra leg room was a nice change of pace when flying.
No you weren't crying you were taking offense to the greatest upgrade in the history of upgrades. Snowflakes don't really cry they just pretend in order to bully everyone.
If someone doesn't like it that Captain is the Final authority. Deal with it or get removed.
I would have presumed there would be some sort of scale within the landing gear, even something as simple as a red mark like on the side of ships?
Why not let the plane judge its own weight and balance by having load cells in the landing gear?
Another thing that can break? And you don't want to lose your landing gear in case of a hard landing because of some load cells breaking.
@@sebastianlabusch465 Well, that is why they should keep the old method too. Redundancy improves safety. When we are talking about the CoG and take off weight, i think these are way too important factors to ignore, just because an extra safety system may add to maintenance costs.
@@sebastianlabusch465 You can add strain gauged to existing structural members so there would be no weakening of the landing gear. Also the same system would be able to record how hard the landing was on each of the gears so would be an additional safety feature.
@@sebastianlabusch465 What about under each seat?
Yes strain gauges would be good and as pointed out they could also check for hard landings . You could also check the strain gauges by noting the weight before and after refueling. But the only problem I see is you would have to load your passengers and baggage then check weight then calculate fuel requirements then refuel or adjust fuel on board. I don't think passengers will like the delay.
Peterr, Thanks for making a video answering my question. How about a floor scale at the ticketing booth or at the gate? They weigh your luggage now at both.
I always wondered about this. I'm a larger person, 270 pounds (123 Kg.) Years ago, I was on a flight where there seemed to be an uncanny number of people of similar size. The plane was a Super 80, and it was a pretty short flight, less than 2 hours, so certainly there was not a full fuel load. This particular flight also was not full, maybe 75%.
I've flown on small 11-passenger prop planes here in the US. They weighed everyone, and assigned seats based on that.
When some sport team takes a flight, its info is normally reflected on the booking record by the reservation section staff. And in case that it is composed of heavy weight players, the special note is inputted there and after the seat assignment is released to the airport section, this info is conveyed to operation & cargo sections through passenger section at preflight briefing, and after that it is conveyed to the pilots through operation section staff at their own preflight briefing. When these players show up at check-in counter or boarding gate and their total actual weight seems to be enough different from the estimated one, the revised total weight must be informed immediately to operation & cargo sections for weight & balance reason. I worked both as a reservation staff and as an airport staff of a major airline for 19 years (until 2010) and things were working this way at that time. I heard from some senior staff that several decades ago one cargo flight which loaded some heavy animals like horses which were moving on board in some way ( I don't remember the detail about how such a thing happened) fell down because it was losing a proper weight balance during the flight. Therefore, we cannot joke on this matter.
What about putting scales on the boarding tunnel/stairs?
That way you can weight all the passengers, and it doesn't modify the plane.
I sometimes fly the local very small commuter airline. They fly the Cessna Grand Caravan and actually weigh each passenger on a scale before the flight. Not very high tech but it works.
I asked about this a couple of months ago so thanks for explaining it 👍
Pilot: "I will be in dusseldorf..."
Corona: "i doubt it."
Airlines either use weights divided into male/female/child or adult/child. The adult weight is usually the same as the male weight. In addition to that, which Petter did not mention, the baggage weight is needed. There are two different methods here, standard weights (such as for pax weight) or actual weight. Some airlines use standard baggae weights, usually with different weights for domestic and international, and perhaps long haul as well. A domestic bag may for example have a standard weight of 14 kilos, while an international bag might be 17. These are examples, actual weights used may vary. Other airlines weigh each checked in piece at check-in and add the actual weights into the DCS system (the system that does check-in and weight calculations). In general, when loading, the exact weight of each individual piece is not known, so an average weight (either the standard weight or the average of the total actual baggage weight) is used per piece when calculating. The system then adds a healthy buffer to absorb any deviations from this. Cargo is weighed per piece or ULD (per container or pallet for example), so the accuracy there is high. Some airlines might have other ways to do these things, but this is a quick and dirty summary of some common methods.
I recall a US based accident in the 80's where 2 college football teams were traveling and standard wt was used leading to an overweight/out of CG takeoff was attempted, resulting in the accident.
Can't believe aircraft do not have onboard load weighing systems (built in) that give load weights on each wheel group? This is something off-road mining trucks have had for 2 decades in much rougher conditions. They are robust and accurate and not a heavy device, would be easy to incorporate into aircraft crammed with computer systems already. No excuses for modern aircraft not to have this... along with GPS tracking on all flights.
It's 2020 FFS...
KlM looked at this in the 80s but the fuel is ordered based against tickets presold so was scrapped, if airlines did use thjs type of system and any failed it would also negate the system and any delays would outweigh the benefits of flying with the average additional 1.5 tons of fuel on an average sized plane currently carried...
@@stevenlarratt3638 They should use it for safety as well as cost. With a load weighing system installed, tracking weight statistics would become easy and accurate resulting in more precise passenger and luggage weight trends over time. One cost saving effect would be improved fueling calculations with actual data to back it up. Computers have come along way since 1980.
@@smelly_elvis totally agree, back in the 80s economics were a last thought
Smelly Elvis all that extra equipment adds WEIGHT to the plane and reduces its paying capacity!!!
@@wilburfinnigan2142 We're not talking about a great deal of weight, mainly electronics and wiring.
Years ago I flew to a Caribbean Island on a roughly 20 seat turbo prop and everyone had to step on the baggage scale. When I asked about this I was told that the price of fuel was much higher on the Island and that they fueled up to the exact Maximum takeoff weight so as to buy as little fuel as possible on the Island for the return flight.
When I was in the military, I got weighed twice for a flight on a military transport.
I was going to post this question in the comments section of one of your latest videos. Glad you beat me to it! (I was joking to myself that the full body scan at security is actually doing this.)
The use of standard weight uses the same principle as life insurance actuaries use. It is called the law of large numbers. It state that the greater the number used to calculate the average, the closer it comes to the actual.
I was on a small prop hopper between NYC and Washington DC and they had to shuffle us all around.
Here is a question I got on social media:
If a captain or the crew thinks or suspect that a passenger has the new Corona virus or is ill in any other means that makes hen unfit for flight can the crew and the captain then deny the passenger to fly?
I answered that with an yes since I know that every captain is in complete command of his or hers aircraft and has the ultimate call on whom hen let aboard and I thought everyone would be fine with that.
But some raised the opinion that this might be "unfair" to them if the captains can deny them boarding for reasons they do not see "valid" and thus I wanted to check it here.
And maybe you can do a video about what kind of authorities a captain and hens crew has in cases of suspected illness and if there are any cases where the captains can not, should not or would not deny a suspected passenger boarding due to it being "unfair" like say the risk of discrimination. Johan.
I was weighed for a flight from Grand Canyon airport to Page AZ. It was a small prop plane. The FO looked to be the same age as my teen children. It was likely his first job out of middle school. Or maybe flight school.
There was a flight a few years ago from Liverpool that was full of male skiers and their equipment. The airline had to offload around 20 people to be able to take off.
I flew several times with MAAF - Missionary Aviation Fellowship in Africa. Plane had room for only two passengers plus cargo of medicines, hospital supplies etc. It was normal for the lightest person to sit in the back with the cargo and the heavier one to sit alongside the pilot to balance out the load. Best flights ever. Overflying the Serengheti and the Ngoro Goro crater. So bumpy though. Not for the faint hearted!