I’d say they did personally, since Piccolo did warn them not to show up to fight the Artificial Humans if they couldn’t handle someone as strong as Freeza. The only one that didn’t show up to 19 and 20 was Chaozu. Everybody else did, even Yamcha.
@@Jeremo-FD It was over 260 days. It takes 130 days for the Namekian DBs to charge. So 130 days after the Freeza fight, Yamcha and Krillin were wished back (a wish had to be used to transport Krillin's soul to Earth). Another 130 days and Tien and Chaozu were brought back.
Also, if you like to dip into filler/ movies. Tien beat Jeice and burter each with ease while he was split in two. So only half of his power was able to beat a Ginyu force member with ease. Then there is the Bojack movie where Tien Fights evenly with Trunks and Forces him to go Super Saiyan to beat him. So their strength is up there.
@@Saintsrow1824 he literally held Semi Perfect in place. Was able to do superficial damage to him whereas 16 could not. Meanwhile 18 was in sheer shock of it. A couple volleys of it would’ve taken out Imperfect cell. Definitely could’ve killed the androids.
Bro respect for this man, I think most forget that Humans need to survive is literally what lead to Goku a lower class Saiyan being so strong. Vegeta not training & just being a zenkai addict proves that the humans are far better at training to obtain strength than just being born with it
Vegeta not training? Dawg, Vegeta never, ever stops training. Respect to humans needs to be given, but no need to denigrate the most dedicated fighter in the show.
@@Heroesworkshop Vegeta is a zenkai addict, remember Vegta comes from no training as a culture for the most part, your born with your power as in your power level is your class. Vegeta never trains with anyone, even when he was with Future Trunks he just screamed. Vegeta has been on earth for over 10 -30 years hasn't trained with anyone, he keeps to himself & his comfort zone this is why he is weak. Then the only time he trained was with a Kid Trunks, Vegeta avoids training with others at all cost, I don't count that SUPER BS. Also he doesn't rest properly just trains to death
@@holdthetruthhostage that kind of bs logic proves every saiyan is a Zenkai addict, just cause someone trains alone doesnt mean its an addiction, lmao! Did you ever see Piccolo train with anybody else on Earth? We get it, Zenkai boost is your excuse to prove a point that does not exist
I think the humans got shafted in DB Super. The introduction of god ki should've allowed the humans to get way more powerful than they had been before, but once again, only the Sayians get to use it...
I'm not 100% on Yamcha - but in Tiens & Krillins case they don't need to be stronger than Freeza or even the androids, they bridged the gap with techniques that could let them both punch WAY beyond their weight Frankly Tien holding back 2nd form Cell to me indicates that whether he was stronger than Freeza or not, that attack would've probably annihilated him Krillins Destructo Disk already proved it could hit Freeza for serious damage -maybe not his final form but still, he couldn't have been a lot stronger than Goku when he arrived on Namek - so at maximum Krillin would only need to be about 1 /10th the power of final form Freeza to have a chance beat him From memory, Yamcha doesn't have a technique of similar calibur power-wise, only cool factor
@@tomasvillarreal9449 Kami took out Goku post King Piccolo with one move, and Mr. Popo was untouchable to Goku at the start of his training, and he was said to be weaker then Kami.
I think the human's durability throughout the arc is another good indicator. Considering that: 1. The Cells Jr.s are seemingly in par with Piccolo, Vegeta, & Trunks & overpower a fatigued Goku to the point that he becomes too weak to stand 2. The worst injury we see one of the the humans get from a Cell Jr. is a broken arm (the same level of injury dealt to Vegeta by 18) & all 3 are beat unconscious. 3. SSJ2 Gohan's melee on the other hand, is strong enough to kill the Cell Jr.s one blow I'd say it's pretty implausible to suggest that the difference in power between the humans & Cell Jr.s (and thus the other Z fighters) could possibly be as cavernous as them being weaker than Frieza
It's just crazy to think that they DIDN'T surpass Freiza in that time. They got told not to show up unless they could handle a threat stronger than him, handled themselves at least decently against the Cell Jrs, and Tenshinhan himself was pushing back Semi Perfect Cell with his Shin Kikoho! If nothing else, think of how absurd it'd be for a sub Freiza fighter to clear a gap THAT BIG with what was barely even a new technique.
@planetmac8586 similar thing. They're going to face fighters stronger than Freiza, and he told em to be useful if they were going to show up to face em.
@ not to mention. Beerus literally gauges base goku from super and said he doesn't see how he could have beaten frieza. Its a lot more evidence to suggest they haven't surpassed frieza as they were entirely useless and didn't do anything the whole arc.
@planetmac8586 this is outside stuff, we're scaling exclusively from information present in DB and Z- And you could make any number of arguments about that info anyway (Goku was suppressing himself in base, etc.). "Entirely useless" is the kind of thing you'd say if you'd never seen the arc before, lol. Who holds off Semi Perfect Cell when nobody else could, again?
@ did the attack do any damage or did it just hold him? And that's not outside information super is a direct continuation of the dragon ball manga. So its all relevant. At the end of the day the author opinion is what matters the most. Android saga z fighters are not comparable to post buu saga base goku lmao. If its still questionable if that goku can beat Frieza in base the z warriors don't have any chance.
This might be a bit of a weird thing to say as a dragon ball fan, but SSJ (and other transformations) really messed up the side character’s ability to participate in the series To make Piccolo = to SSJ Goku as an example, that means Piccolo would be 50x stronger than Base Goku, which is insane to me. The humans have the opposite issue, where if they’re stronger than Frieza, and I’d assume Base Goku is equal to if not stronger than the humans, then that means SSJ Goku is 50x stronger than Full Power Frieza. I’d love for the Earthlings to be story relevant, but without transformations they’d need to be massively stronger than Base Goku to make a big difference. I really like that they gave Piccolo a transformation, and I wouldn’t be opposed to earthlings getting something similar
You're interpreting wrong. By the time piccolo is as strong as namek saga SSJ1 (we'll say middle of android saga) Goku (base) is already far stronger than he was as a SSJ1 on namek. So piccolo is never stronger than base Goku only stronger than an earlier version of SSJ1.
Back in the day when we had to make sense of everything, and they didn’t release “official statements” it was a lot more clear. When they stated that Super Saiyan was a simple MULTIPLIER, then things got out of hand because after 2nd form Frieza, power levels were abandoned. So how do you do 50 times UNKNOWN? They really messed up the series by trying to keep NUMBERS instead of the transformation being a special type of event
@@YophiSmith who do you mean when you say "they"? Toriyama never wrote in the manga that SS was a 50x multiplier. Just read the manga and get all of the information from there instead of guide books and fan fiction and it makes sense.
The side characters were being fazed out before the SSJ transformation. They stopped being viable in the movies too. Kinda strange to blame it on the Magna Opus of the story.
9:36 King Kai can use interdimensional telepathy to train anyone he wants, all he has to do is point his antennae and focus his mind then he can instruct anyone in otherworld or in the normal world of the living. Krillin could have been trained remotely if King Kai's telepathy was the medium.
Krillin beat SSJ2 Gohan prior to the Tournament of Power--not in raw strength obviously, but by the rules they'd set out. During the Cell Games Gohan was literally the only one who could fully keep up with Cell and Goku's fight. Even to perceive the movements of upper tier fighters you have to assume that Krillin has vastly surpassed Namek era Freeza.... and even SSJ1 Gohan at the Cell Games.
Keeping up with superhuman speed isn’t that crazy in dbz. Think about watching two pro boxers fight. Someone average can keep up and see what’s happening even if they don’t know the full gravity of the situation.
@@haha-lj5sqbut it is though being weaker means you get blitzed you not being in their tier of strength means that you cant see them we see this in the og dragonball where the audience had to be dictated what happend so no.
Vegeta also said the scouter numbers were bad because the fighters were clearly hiding their actual power levels back during the saiyan saga, so saiyan saga and Namek saga powerlevels are highly suspect.
Only Piccolo and Tien could defeat Frieza in a one on one. Piccolo is on par with SSj Goku, that's why it only took a standard deviation of power to reach "Android 17" level of power. That deviation was gained by merging with Kami.
@@baronn9809they didn’t even train against cell. Not really anyway. Tien never gets noticeably stronger after the frieza saga other than his cell scene. Krillin just never beats anyone and yamcha is worse. Yamcha has literally never one a single match in any tournament he’s been in.
The problem is, Fans of these cartoons forget it isn't real life. They try to apply real life logic to cartoons that don't try to be logical at all. Characters in a show are as strong as the author wants them to be regardless if it'd make logical sense using the natural laws of our world or not. They *Shouldn't* be stronger than even Ginyu-Taichou, *But they are*. Blame Toriyama for not even attempting to keep the powerscaling logical.
another thing that people forget about goku training with king kai is that goku doesnt train only his base power, he also trains the kaioken and the spirit bomb, which the others do no. the humans only train their base strenght. they also had each other as training partners. thats also why tiens extended stay was not as effective: he only had chiaozu as a partner and lets face it, chiaozu has always been very weak. king kai himself does not fight, so goku basically lifted weights the entire time. and even then, gokus focus when training his strenght on king kais planet was specifically because he was too weak for the techniques when he arrived. another thing people forget is that raising your ki during fights is rare in the universe. technically everyone can do it, but only on rare planets like earth is it common knowledge that you can go beyong your limit. thats why the entire frieza force has scouters: because usually the only ones to change their ki transform to do so. the term "base strenght" itself is very pointless to use on humans since they change their ki so much during fights.
Goku spent the first few weeks trying to adjust to 10X gravity, completely wasting time, while the humans had no trouble with it and could immediately start training at full capacity.
In the manga’s English translation, Piccolo lays out the details on the androids coming who even trunks couldn’t beat and tells everyone to prepare to fight people of that level and to not come unless they are sure of themselves. Goku later tells everyone to stay home if they are confident in their ability to fight someone like that. At the least, they’d have been around frieza’s level by the time the androids arrived seeing as they just watched trunks embarrass Frieza and knew they had to be ready to fight someone even stronger than that.
Good analysis as always! A few things a I thought of while watching: -Goku and piccolo had their weighted clothing on king kai's planet which should have gave them better gains than any other fighter, even though the others usually make better gains than Goku with the same training. -Tien was on King Kai's planet longer than anyone, so he definitely would have had the highest increase from that training. (Maybe even developed the shin kiko ho) - Vegeta did pass base Gohan while training in the gap before Buu. -I dont think any of the humans or base saiyans surpassed Frieza before the Cell Arc. Tien showed up because he knew he had a technique that could likely beat the androids. Yamcha probably showed up because he was feeling insecure about Vegeta. Krillin showed up because he is a true warrior, and Gohan went because its what he trained for.(I guess that could be said for all) -I also personally think 19/20 are around or slightly below Frieza's level. Gero was aware of basically nothing after the fight with Vegeta in the saiyan saga. I believe they were built to start low powered, but absorb ki to grow exponentially. - framing it as them all surpassing SS Goku on namek makes it seem even less plausible.
Tien didn't have a technique that could beat the androids. Why would Yamaha risk is life because he's insecure about vegeta? Krillin was the biggest coward there.
@baronn9809 - the neo tri-beam would have destroyed 19 and 20 and heavily damaged 17 and 18. - yamcha was obviously insecure and felt pressure to prove himself. Like he did with the gravity chamber. Then when he had a hole punched through him and was healed, he had enough. - calling krillin a coward is insane. The guy has willingly faced threats greater than him time after time. He even taunted Frieza.
@Nathaniel-w5n No it wouldnt have. You're talking about anime filler lol. He couldn't even move in the direction of the androids without freezing up he was indeed the biggest coward there.
My understanding of what's going on here with the amount of improvement characters receive after battles and from training is two things: 1) When a ki master is exposed to someone with superior ki and ki control and techniques, they're able to see and feel what the stronger person is doing with their ki. They can then incorporate this understanding into their own use of ki to quickly become much, much stronger. This is why it's really hard for anybody to reach a certain level, but then once one character does it everybody else seems to pretty easily. Super Saiyan bargain sale. This also explains why characters tend to all be around the same level. They all bunch up at around the same bands because it's easy to meet a power level someone has, but really hard to surpass it. 2) Teachers get much better after training one person. King Kai wasn't used to working with students like Goku. It took him a lot of time to figure out what worked with someone of Goku's power. He was then able to take his refined training techniques and use them to quickly give them massive increases in power. We saw this same thing happen with Roshi, Kami, and even with Goku when he trained Gohan and Piccolo for those years leading up to the androids. He was a much better teacher at the end than he was at the beginning. We see that when he goes into the time chamber with Gohan.
The narrative slightly suggests through their feats across different arcs after and considering their training regimens, it can be argued that the Earthlings have indeed surpassed Frieza’s first form at least by the end of the 3-year training for the Androids. Otherwise on Piccolo's warnin, they wouldn't have arrived on the scene against Gero & 19. I’d love for the Earthlings rival with the likes of Goku & Vegeta or the they’d need to be massively stronger than current SSG Goku to make a big difference. I really like that they gave Piccolo his Orange transformation, and I wouldn’t be suprised if the Earthlings get similar treatment.
The narrative heavily implies Yamcha, Krillin and Tien surpassed Mecha Frieza and King Cold by the time they showed up to fight the Androids, at least to me lol
@@Saintsrow1824 So you're arguing that they decided to not listen to Piccolo's words, and just showed up to make it harder for everyone else. And Tien even did so while leaving Chiaotzu behind so he wouldn't do that ?
@@VRO_000 If he said something about being useful, they could show up even if they are weaker than Freeza. Krillin for example was very useful in Namek saga, and he wasn't beating Freeza anytime ever.
I like to think so. especially considering a big thing in OG dragon ball was everyone trying to catch up to goku and goku making everyone around him stronger.
My assumption for why everyone gets so much stronger than Goku did in much less time from the same training is that since Goku was the first student of Kami and King Kai, he served as the test case for their training methods, and after him they refined their training to double down on what worked with Goku and get rid of what didn't work. So the others benefited from getting the 2.0 version of the training instead of the 1.0 version Goku got. One other thing is that the post-Raditz power gains show that the Z-fighters are very good at training to the level of the last opponent, so in 1 year they were able to all easily outclass Raditz, with most them being strong enough to 1-shot Raditz. Since they could sense just how strong Freeza and King Cold were, they had a similar benchmark to train towards like they did after Raditz. Unfortunately, the Androids were much stronger than their benchmark, just as Nappa and Vegeta were much stronger than the benchmark set by Radditz.
Considering they knew how strong the Androids would be and still showed up after the 3 year time skip yeah I think they all could take Freeza by the time Trunks returns for the 19 fight.
I just love the thought of Toriyama sitting down, writing his stories with a calculator next to him so he can punch in equations for exponential power growth over time just to see at what level everyone should be at certain moments in time. And when a character transforms, he has to factor in that too.
I love despite how weak Frieza is (Namek) in the grand scheme of modern Dragon Ball, he still remains the benchmark for the whole series. Frieza really is him
Their performance in cell games against the cell jrs says it all Those cell jrs were way beyond Frieza as to one shot Frieza And the human fighters were in there
If there is a problem with the theory that the humans surpassed Freeza here, it's Trunks. Because Trunks is the only character who didn't get any training during the 3-year timeskip, was already implied to be weaker than pre-timeskip Goku with the finger vs sword test, and was still implied to be stronger than all the non-super saiyans and not that much weaker than Vegeta despite everyone's growth over the previous 3 years. Trunks would have to have been much stronger than his brief spar against Goku implied he was or be weaker as a super saiyan than Tien post-timeskip for that power-scaling to work.
Trunks did get stronger during that time from general survival and his training he could put in as evidenced by 2 things. Piccolo doesn't doubt his capabilities against those he knew Trunks was no match for yet later places Trunks on a higher level than him and not too far behind Goku and Vegeta. Next is the change in his description of fighting the Future Artificial Humans where his assessment of being no match for them changes to him being able to at least put up a fight until it became 2 V 1, making it clear he'd become stronger since his last trip to the past. The actual thing that puts a problem in the Earthlings being at all comparable to Freeza is Kuririn as he shows pessimism at being able to do anything when he's not a Super Saiyan and then is in awe of Piccolo's strength despite him not being a Super Saiyan, showing he's still far below the level Trunks displayed 3 years prior.
This was a neat video. I think it was actually a Jump Magazine (V Jump or WSJ) that gave Krillin a 75k power level. I didn't know Toribot had anything to do with the Ginyu Force on Kaio's planet. Is there a source to that? Great point about the Earthlings training compared to Goku's training. I agree with damn near everything except I do think base Vegeta > Earthlings. The reason why is because it just doesn't seem likely they'd surpass goku and at the time the 2 should relative enough that they could be called equals, at least physically. That being said, Piccolo was also below base goku and he surpassed him. The saiyans relied on Ssj as basically a crutch, so even if the Earthlings did catch up to and surpass their bases, they'd still ultimately be no match. The Bojack movie actually supports this idea when post rosat base Trunks can't best Tien without using Ssj. Trunks was basically on par with Vegeta as well. So that's interesting to say the least.
This subject has been talked about a lot. Dragon Balls escalation has been talk about to death. I don't mind human characters being strong or capable as the protagonist. This escalation of power is common in several types of media, but it's especially bad in Dragon Ball because of how fast it is. Characters literally get hundreds of times stronger every arc. In early Dragon Ball escalation progresses but it always had the character keep up with Goku. And grounded the conflict knowing the villain is stronger than the protagonist. Narrative escalation is like a symphony of escalation, each note building upon the last to create a crescendo of emotions and anticipation. You know, Super made it worse with having too many characters at the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
Very good question! I literally was arguing with someone about this. Tbh i still dont believe any of them were stronger than final form freeza. Krillin probably was 60m at best. Which is absurd.
So you believe krillin is 6000 times stronger than nappa. Someone who can nuke a city from orbit with 2 fingers. Krillin by the way has zero feats and has never even come close to anything even king piccolo has ever done.
15:27 it's not that ki blasts are stronger than a naked punch or a kick but that ki blasts work off a simple trick of using harmonic resonance to destabilize and implode the structure of non living beings or beings whose aura is at least 1/3rd weaker than the person blasting them. Yup, it's the "shatter points" ability of Mace Windu in star wars or the way wind or narching in synchronization used to be a threat to any bridge whose engineers were oblivious to the nature of harmonic resonance.
I'm assuming you're referring to the Tacoma Narrows bridge, which isn't exactly fair on the engineers who designed it. The bridge wasn't destroyed due to forced resonance, that's a misconception. It collapsed due to aeroelastic flutter not forced resonance. The aerodynamic forces functionally made the bridge have negative damping.
It takes a similar amount of effort to increase your power level from 100 1000 as it does from 100000 to 1000000 (both 10 times increases) But one is increasing their power by 900 levels and the other 900000 levels. Without the context of the starting point it can be a little jarring
The greatest argument for the humans staying relative in power to the saiyans and Piccolo is the FACT that Chiaotzu did not show up to fight the Androids. If Chiaotzu was 30,000 and the humans were 100,000, hell even 1,000,000,, both powerlevels are EFFECTIVELY the same compared to the multi-hundred million powerlevels the saiyans and Piccolo would have. So it's safe to say the humans were relative enough in strength to the saiyans and Piccolo to show up like they did.
Ok. So nappa who was I don’t know like 7500 at his best, can literally make a nuclear bomb stronger than any existing one with two fingers. But I’m suppose to buy chaoitzu who has zero feats, is four times stronger? Give it a rest.
@@shockwavesyndrome6433 well hold on now, the 30,000 figure was just to prove a point, I wasn't claiming Chiaotzu hit those numbers, but if he HAD, there's no way the Z fighters were also relative to that number.
Short answer: yes. By the time Cell came along, it's easy to say that Frieza would have been easy work for even Piccolo, and certainly Gohan. I would argue by the time of the Buu saga, all the Z fighters, including the humans would have easily surpassed Frieza. Bringing him back over and over again as a threat is really dumb.
I'm not going to argue against the point being made, but i do have some concerns about a particular piece of evidence. You have mentioned a few times that Toriyama worked with the anime during the Ginyu force vs Earthlings fight, which you see as an endorsement that the power in the fight is semi-canon. I disagree. I mean it may end up being right, but not for that reason. George R R Martin was a producer for game of thrones on hbo. He even wrote an episode. An episode that was drastically different than the version in the book. You couldn't use anything he wrote in that episode as evidence for the book. The show is a different canon. I think just because toriyama was on board with that anime scene doesnt mean he approves of the scenes as canon for the manga
I think the ultimate problem with how power scaling worked in Z in regards to power levels is that it makes the training in dragonball make no sense - goku and piccolo did all the training they did and by the time radditz arrived they were in the 400s? Absurd.
Thank you for not using Anime-only Filler. Toei filler says Yamcha eclipses Super Perfect Cell in the Buu arc. unfortunately, Gregory was able to sneak into the video...
Just wanna say I really enjoy your content! Your logic does make sense I just can’t allow myself to believe any of the humans EVER achieved that level of power in the whole series. Triple your power 3 years in a row? How? The resources available to them didn’t change? It doesn’t make sense that you’d be able to grow exponentially like that doing the exact same things. At some point it’d have to flatten out to get from 5k to 15k. Then 15 to 45 then 45 to 135 doing the same training doesn’t sound right to me
Power level are bullshit ofc. Tien would wipe his butt with frieza by the time of cell arc, he managed to keep semi perfect cell in a hole for a minute. Thats more than any super sayajin 1. For others its not certain if they suroassed frieza before Super. By times of DB Super Toriyama decided to disregard any logic in power scaling and anyone apart from maybe Chaotzu became as strong as plot required.
Thing is, they always did that. Goku trained with Kami for like 3 years and he wasn't even half of Raditz's powerlevel, but then the others trained with him for less then a year, and all of them could beat the Saibamen of the same power, and Krillin even just killed multiple of them with 1 blast.
Consider this, they did not complete the same amount of training as Goku did, so they likely did not get as strong as Goku when he fought Vegeta. We never see any of the z fighters use the spirit bomb or kaioken. They also do not get the zenkai boost and take longer to learn new techniques whereas Goku has been a prodigy since childhood. Mecha-frieza they were scared of Frieza still. They mistook Yamcha for Goku because their data was from before Namek. I would argue even Super the humans were not equal to Frieza and rely more on techniques to overcome enemies.
the door still is weird, they could have just punched through the rocks AROUND the door, surely the rocks are not stronger than freeza the idea of the door being galaxy level is funny lmao, but if gero can make a freeza+ android i dont see why he cant make a freeza+ door
Time and time again it seems the DBZ fanbase assumes because Toriyama had to make choices on the fly for a weekly publication schedule that it meant he put absolutely NO thought into his writing.
I think tien is the only one with a chance at beating names frieza. Since he was able to keep semi-perfect cell at bay with tri beam cannon. Tri- beam should be able to severely wound names frieza.
Well you can't really say that their training with Kaiō-sama, wouldnt have had realistic results, you guys are forgetting that it was a few amount of days, but it was never specified which kind of training the Z warriors had, plus gravity, plus the fact that they were dead which means they likely never took breaks during their training, which if you double the amount of story line days in dragon ball it would be double, hence if they tell you they trained for 5 days during the Freezer saga, they likely fought equaling 10 days, and according to sources the Freezer Saga lasted 40 days, so it can be estimated they fought equaling to 80 days or over two months.
@ Ik it’s head canon but many say that zenkais (early on at least) make you as strong as the enemy you need to beat bc of saiyan biology or something like that
People seem to forget that it's a HUGE dropped plotpoint that Saiyan-Human Hybrids are supposed to be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than Pure Saiyans. If nothing else this means that Humans should be just as stong as Saiyan, but for different generic factors. (Presumably weaker naturally but able to become atronger from training.)
El Manga Legendario does the Ginyu Force aside from Guldo/Ginyu range from 40K to 50k. Battle of Gods also has Beerus saying Goku is weaker than Freeza in base after the Boo arc. Vjump also seems to indicate that that early Boo arc Gohan is below 40 Million in base if he fought against Yakon. I don't see any indication that the humans got stronger than the base Saiyans. It's possible but I don't see anywhere in the series where it's implied.
If Humans could have become stronger than Frieza, then there should have been tons of Saiyans that would have surpassed him way before he destroyed planet Vegeta.
I think they did even though they shouldn’t have Toriyama doesn’t use logic & gave Roshi a power creep in TOP when he was too weak to even fight the sayians
Hmmmm, well there's really no way to be sure, but considering Roshi blew up the moon and the moon is close to being a small planet, I'd say Raditz could do it.
Goku at the boo saga was at base form was at 65M. Freezer at full power was 120 M. So, I don't think for a second any other earthling could even get near Goku, and of course forget Freezer.
No power levels are official after the Frieza saga. However Goten and Trunks were able to fight 18 in base in the Buu Saga. It’s clear anyone stronger than the kids’ base from could 1-tap Frieza.
I don't think King Kai who has a power level below 4k can train someone up to 5 million. They might grow exponentially at start, but at some point it's going to level off and training under 20x gravity just isn't going to get you stronger anymore. Goku and Vegeta had to constantly push new limits and find new masters to get stronger. It's more reasonable than they were approaching 1 million when Frieza came to earth.
I always thought the humans had surpassed freizer by the android saga, there seems to be no cap on power levels for anyone in dragon ball, just an advantage for some species (saiyans) to gain power
I think they did. Look at how fast they improved just by training with Kami for less than a year. They were already capable of completing the task Goku did with king Kai much faster than Goku so they had extra time to spar. Tien trained with King Kai for 270 days (about 9 months) and Yamcha for 130 days (4.5 months) and for the majority of that time they trained together which increases your improvement. Then they trained for 3 years straight for the androids. I think they all are around Freeza’s 2nd form level by the time the Android Arc begins with Tien Clearly being the strongest of the 3. Tien continued to train consistently after the Cell games while Yamcha and Krillin did not so I’m sure Tien surpassed Freeza over the 7 year time period. He probably was strong enough to kill Final form Freeza with the Kikoho back in the Android Arc. Krillin and Yamcha aren’t much weaker than Tien but they didn’t keep up their training. It’s like when train later on in super manga they are much stronger than they were at the end of Z and definitely stronger than Freeza.
Tien and Yamcha based off what they do shoudl be stronger than Krillin but krillin is the best friend character so he’s as strong as the story needs him to be. It will not allow him to be weaker than them for long. Tien is the exception he’s always been written to be superior to Krillin
the only weird think abt this is that, goku and vegeta base form should be stronger than frieza too, still I think they need super saiyan at least (ofc talking abt Z only)
Freeza saga power levels simply don't make sense at all. Krillin having a power level of 75,000 a mere hour after getting 1-shot by Reecome, or Goku/Vegeta's zenkais multiplying their power level by 10 times despite zenkais giving just a slight power boost before - Akira clearly didn't think too hard about the issue, or there's a point that the power level system just doesn't work. I believe it's better to analyze the issue based on feats alone. Tien managing to hold Semi perfect cell down, taking on a Cell jr for a few instants, and deflecting Buutenks's ki blast are better indicators of his power, and those feats put him comfortably above 100% Freeza.
unrelated to power scaling id like for the series to take a "skill over power" type direction, Tien should be just as good in a fight as goku considering that all the guy does is train and fight. The same way that IN JJBA you could have a crazy powerful stand but not be smart enough to use it correctly and get beat by someone with a weaker stand that uses it better
If in a yr or 2 krillen went from 1400 to 70000 that shows that humans get some sort of zenkia boost so to believable atlseat krilling got to 500k first from freeza..
If they had Kaioken, i could put them on par with Final Form Freeza when he first transform into it. But since they don't have Kaioken or Potential Unlock like Krillin, the most i got is like First to maybe Second.
Killin had the lowest potential of all Earthling fighters. He took the longest to learn Kamehameha out of all Kame's apprentices and his Ki attacks remained the weakest even during the beginning of Z. His "disks" were born out of a necessity of making his paltry Ki potential useful by multiplying it's efficiency using a bladed shape. Just remember Goku could freely manipulate his Kamehameha and even release it through his feet, Yamcha turned into as Sphere and could freely control it to follow his opponent. Krillin only learned how to do that in Z. So while yes, Tenshinhan and Yamcha need a potential unlock. No Krillin's potential unlock don't put him far above the others like most fans think.
Krillin controlled his ki blasts in the fight with piccolo and learned to fly before yamcha and seemingly Goku. With his potential unlocked he was almost as strong as potential unlocked Gohan.
I didn't even watch the video yet and I'd say they can't. Simply on the bases of humans don't have the same level of potential as saiyans, namekians, and the race of Frieza. Even if they trained everyday of their life like Tien, that's simply a power they can't reach naturally or by training alone. Tien might be able to take on 1st form Frieza by the end of the dbz series but final form Frieza, especially at 100% is out of reach of super human capability.
I guess if one of those 3 reached 1st form Frieza powerlevel that is already too much, probably Krillin is around Captain Ginyu's powerlevel and that's already insane for an earthling, maybe Tien is somewhere in between Ginyu and 1st form Frieza since he never stopped training, I really doubt a human could ever compete with a being like Frieza, he was the strongest being in the universe for a reason and even a special elite warrior like Ginyu could only surpass, barely, only 1/5 of Frieza's most supressed form.
I did all this same maths. This is why I came the conclusion that Frieza could not be 530.000 in 1st form, when Piccolo and Nail combined would be a generous 100k at best. And Frieza was clearly somewhat over that, say 120k. Otherwise he would have pulverized Piccolo. I think it was a mistake of adding another 0 to 53k when Frieza said it. That would also be in line with Vegeta, who could not possibly reach 530k. He goes from 18k -> 24k -> 30k with 2 zenkais, and +1 zenkai now he is 530k? wtf. He could generously reach 45k and he could still give Frieza a struggle. This is my headcannon but I think there is plenty of evidence to support it, just now what the official sources say. I think they messed up.
Me: I wonder if this video will be interesting
“Hello everyone, this is *Poohead189* “
That's how you know it's legit
better than any nickname is Xxdark slayer kill death dragon pro player Xx
@@Malenbolai Not really, that one sounds funnier.
@@diaro You won't find it so funny when he releases his Dragon of the Darkness Flame from the deepest pits of Spiritworld!
😂😂
I’d say they did personally, since Piccolo did warn them not to show up to fight the Artificial Humans if they couldn’t handle someone as strong as Freeza. The only one that didn’t show up to 19 and 20 was Chaozu. Everybody else did, even Yamcha.
This guy gets it
Piccolo nevef said that
@@planetmac8586he did in Dbz
@@TheOnlyMetal no piccolo said if you're not going to be useful don't show up
@@planetmac8586 maybe different translations or Dbz and DBKAI
Tien: **lives with King Kai for years, gaining the equivalent to thousands of years of training**
Krillin: **Dad strength**
Tien was with King Kai for like a week.
@@Jeremo-FD Tien decided to be revived a year later after Krillin and the others
@@Jeremo-FD It was over 260 days. It takes 130 days for the Namekian DBs to charge. So 130 days after the Freeza fight, Yamcha and Krillin were wished back (a wish had to be used to transport Krillin's soul to Earth). Another 130 days and Tien and Chaozu were brought back.
>dad strength
He's a jobber who got a literal handout and still lost the lead after a tenfold increase.
Krillin has the same growth Hax Gohan leverages later on in the series.
His potential is no longer locked, he faces no bottlenecks in his training.
Also, if you like to dip into filler/ movies. Tien beat Jeice and burter each with ease while he was split in two. So only half of his power was able to beat a Ginyu force member with ease. Then there is the Bojack movie where Tien Fights evenly with Trunks and Forces him to go Super Saiyan to beat him. So their strength is up there.
In any case, Tien in the cell saga would prolly be able to kill the androids or imperfect cell with a Neo Tri beam-which puts him above Freeza alone
NO
He’s not killing any of them with neo tri beam
@@Saintsrow1824 he literally held Semi Perfect in place. Was able to do superficial damage to him whereas 16 could not. Meanwhile 18 was in sheer shock of it. A couple volleys of it would’ve taken out Imperfect cell. Definitely could’ve killed the androids.
@@Auvisome😮💨💯
@@Auvisome it doesn’t damage him period, so there’s no way to tell if he could kill them
Based off him just holding cell back
Bro respect for this man, I think most forget that Humans need to survive is literally what lead to Goku a lower class Saiyan being so strong. Vegeta not training & just being a zenkai addict proves that the humans are far better at training to obtain strength than just being born with it
Vegeta not training? Dawg, Vegeta never, ever stops training. Respect to humans needs to be given, but no need to denigrate the most dedicated fighter in the show.
Vegeta trains more than anyone.
@@Heroesworkshop Vegeta is a zenkai addict, remember Vegta comes from no training as a culture for the most part, your born with your power as in your power level is your class. Vegeta never trains with anyone, even when he was with Future Trunks he just screamed. Vegeta has been on earth for over 10 -30 years hasn't trained with anyone, he keeps to himself & his comfort zone this is why he is weak.
Then the only time he trained was with a Kid Trunks, Vegeta avoids training with others at all cost, I don't count that SUPER BS. Also he doesn't rest properly just trains to death
@@MrDavidKord read my reply to @heroesworkshop
@@holdthetruthhostage that kind of bs logic proves every saiyan is a Zenkai addict, just cause someone trains alone doesnt mean its an addiction, lmao! Did you ever see Piccolo train with anybody else on Earth? We get it, Zenkai boost is your excuse to prove a point that does not exist
I think the humans got shafted in DB Super. The introduction of god ki should've allowed the humans to get way more powerful than they had been before, but once again, only the Sayians get to use it...
Tien should 100% be able to tap into ultra instinct with how much training he does and experience he has
For real, Piccolo and Tien definitely would have figured it out and Krillin is a Ki master so I bet he could too
Well DB Super isn't good to begin with.
@@willdiesel8431db super is a massive success you haters are weird lol u hate super but love moro jiren hit ui…
@ROGALLYWORLD wrong again. All of Super is crap. You reprobates wouldn't know a good series if it sat on your face and climaxed.
Baka
I'm not 100% on Yamcha - but in Tiens & Krillins case they don't need to be stronger than Freeza or even the androids, they bridged the gap with techniques that could let them both punch WAY beyond their weight
Frankly Tien holding back 2nd form Cell to me indicates that whether he was stronger than Freeza or not, that attack would've probably annihilated him
Krillins Destructo Disk already proved it could hit Freeza for serious damage -maybe not his final form but still, he couldn't have been a lot stronger than Goku when he arrived on Namek - so at maximum Krillin would only need to be about 1 /10th the power of final form Freeza to have a chance beat him
From memory, Yamcha doesn't have a technique of similar calibur power-wise, only cool factor
I agree. If you think about it as them surpassing SS Goku on Namek it seems even more implausible.
His Soukidan damaged GOD back in Dragon Ball and he can guide the blast, so arguing that Yamucha has nothing it ridiculous
@@immortal5812?? Not like Kami Is a powerhouse or something he couldnt even beat his other half, also he didnt fight Kami itself lol
@ Not a powerhouse?! You’re joking right? At that point in DB he was the 3rd strongest being and Yamucha managed to injure him
@@tomasvillarreal9449 Kami took out Goku post King Piccolo with one move, and Mr. Popo was untouchable to Goku at the start of his training, and he was said to be weaker then Kami.
I think the human's durability throughout the arc is another good indicator. Considering that:
1. The Cells Jr.s are seemingly in par with Piccolo, Vegeta, & Trunks & overpower a fatigued Goku to the point that he becomes too weak to stand
2. The worst injury we see one of the the humans get from a Cell Jr. is a broken arm (the same level of injury dealt to Vegeta by 18) & all 3 are beat unconscious.
3. SSJ2 Gohan's melee on the other hand, is strong enough to kill the Cell Jr.s one blow
I'd say it's pretty implausible to suggest that the difference in power between the humans & Cell Jr.s (and thus the other Z fighters) could possibly be as cavernous as them being weaker than Frieza
lol
It's just crazy to think that they DIDN'T surpass Freiza in that time. They got told not to show up unless they could handle a threat stronger than him, handled themselves at least decently against the Cell Jrs, and Tenshinhan himself was pushing back Semi Perfect Cell with his Shin Kikoho!
If nothing else, think of how absurd it'd be for a sub Freiza fighter to clear a gap THAT BIG with what was barely even a new technique.
Piccolo nevef said that. He said don't show up if you won't be useful
@planetmac8586 similar thing. They're going to face fighters stronger than Freiza, and he told em to be useful if they were going to show up to face em.
@ not to mention. Beerus literally gauges base goku from super and said he doesn't see how he could have beaten frieza. Its a lot more evidence to suggest they haven't surpassed frieza as they were entirely useless and didn't do anything the whole arc.
@planetmac8586 this is outside stuff, we're scaling exclusively from information present in DB and Z- And you could make any number of arguments about that info anyway (Goku was suppressing himself in base, etc.).
"Entirely useless" is the kind of thing you'd say if you'd never seen the arc before, lol. Who holds off Semi Perfect Cell when nobody else could, again?
@ did the attack do any damage or did it just hold him? And that's not outside information super is a direct continuation of the dragon ball manga. So its all relevant. At the end of the day the author opinion is what matters the most. Android saga z fighters are not comparable to post buu saga base goku lmao. If its still questionable if that goku can beat Frieza in base the z warriors don't have any chance.
Krillin trained with Android 18 a character that doesn’t run out of stamina, Gohan the Sayian Hybrid, and Goku😎💯
This might be a bit of a weird thing to say as a dragon ball fan, but SSJ (and other transformations) really messed up the side character’s ability to participate in the series
To make Piccolo = to SSJ Goku as an example, that means Piccolo would be 50x stronger than Base Goku, which is insane to me. The humans have the opposite issue, where if they’re stronger than Frieza, and I’d assume Base Goku is equal to if not stronger than the humans, then that means SSJ Goku is 50x stronger than Full Power Frieza.
I’d love for the Earthlings to be story relevant, but without transformations they’d need to be massively stronger than Base Goku to make a big difference. I really like that they gave Piccolo a transformation, and I wouldn’t be opposed to earthlings getting something similar
Dbz was originally supposed upposed to end after Goku beat Frieza.
You're interpreting wrong. By the time piccolo is as strong as namek saga SSJ1 (we'll say middle of android saga) Goku (base) is already far stronger than he was as a SSJ1 on namek. So piccolo is never stronger than base Goku only stronger than an earlier version of SSJ1.
Back in the day when we had to make sense of everything, and they didn’t release “official statements” it was a lot more clear. When they stated that Super Saiyan was a simple MULTIPLIER, then things got out of hand because after 2nd form Frieza, power levels were abandoned. So how do you do 50 times UNKNOWN?
They really messed up the series by trying to keep NUMBERS instead of the transformation being a special type of event
@@YophiSmith who do you mean when you say "they"? Toriyama never wrote in the manga that SS was a 50x multiplier. Just read the manga and get all of the information from there instead of guide books and fan fiction and it makes sense.
The side characters were being fazed out before the SSJ transformation. They stopped being viable in the movies too. Kinda strange to blame it on the Magna Opus of the story.
9:36 King Kai can use interdimensional telepathy to train anyone he wants, all he has to do is point his antennae and focus his mind then he can instruct anyone in otherworld or in the normal world of the living.
Krillin could have been trained remotely if King Kai's telepathy was the medium.
Krillin beat SSJ2 Gohan prior to the Tournament of Power--not in raw strength obviously, but by the rules they'd set out. During the Cell Games Gohan was literally the only one who could fully keep up with Cell and Goku's fight. Even to perceive the movements of upper tier fighters you have to assume that Krillin has vastly surpassed Namek era Freeza.... and even SSJ1 Gohan at the Cell Games.
Keeping up with superhuman speed isn’t that crazy in dbz. Think about watching two pro boxers fight. Someone average can keep up and see what’s happening even if they don’t know the full gravity of the situation.
@@haha-lj5sqbut it is though being weaker means you get blitzed you not being in their tier of strength means that you cant see them we see this in the og dragonball where the audience had to be dictated what happend so no.
Yeah but this is about cell saga
Can’t compare super to Z
@@haha-lj5sqThey're not boxers they're above light speed universal level fighters lol it takes a different amount of power to keep up with that
Vegeta also said the scouter numbers were bad because the fighters were clearly hiding their actual power levels back during the saiyan saga, so saiyan saga and Namek saga powerlevels are highly suspect.
They can be debated but to say that all of them are suspect is just adding un-needed supposition.
Only Piccolo and Tien could defeat Frieza in a one on one.
Piccolo is on par with SSj Goku, that's why it only took a standard deviation of power to reach "Android 17" level of power. That deviation was gained by merging with Kami.
If krillin could hit with the kienzan he would be in that club too.
you forgot Uub..
@@ianreed9638 that's true with post Z training.
Piccolo would shitstomp namek/mecha freeza after fusing with kami, it would not be a close fight. Tien and krillin only with shin kikoho/kienzan.
That's if frieza stood still.
At no point will any of the humans get more out of training then Vegeta does 😂
Why not? They got way more out of Kami's training then goku did.
@@baronn9809because it was convenient to the plot. They still weren’t shit to piccolo who sat around a mountain doing fuck all for a year
@shockwavesyndrome6433 And plot convenient powerups are a staple of z. So I don't know why In universe it wouldn't continue.
@@baronn9809 if they have a goal post they can train and reach those levels super consistent with Z
@@baronn9809they didn’t even train against cell. Not really anyway. Tien never gets noticeably stronger after the frieza saga other than his cell scene. Krillin just never beats anyone and yamcha is worse. Yamcha has literally never one a single match in any tournament he’s been in.
Farmer with shotgun
Another top tier video. I love when you go into the details of the humans training!
So we are supposed to believe that these guys are planet busters, yet can't break a door?
The problem is, Fans of these cartoons forget it isn't real life. They try to apply real life logic to cartoons that don't try to be logical at all. Characters in a show are as strong as the author wants them to be regardless if it'd make logical sense using the natural laws of our world or not. They *Shouldn't* be stronger than even Ginyu-Taichou, *But they are*. Blame Toriyama for not even attempting to keep the powerscaling logical.
another thing that people forget about goku training with king kai is that goku doesnt train only his base power, he also trains the kaioken and the spirit bomb, which the others do no.
the humans only train their base strenght. they also had each other as training partners.
thats also why tiens extended stay was not as effective: he only had chiaozu as a partner and lets face it, chiaozu has always been very weak.
king kai himself does not fight, so goku basically lifted weights the entire time.
and even then, gokus focus when training his strenght on king kais planet was specifically because he was too weak for the techniques when he arrived.
another thing people forget is that raising your ki during fights is rare in the universe. technically everyone can do it, but only on rare planets like earth is it common knowledge that you can go beyong your limit. thats why the entire frieza force has scouters: because usually the only ones to change their ki transform to do so.
the term "base strenght" itself is very pointless to use on humans since they change their ki so much during fights.
Goku spent the first few weeks trying to adjust to 10X gravity, completely wasting time, while the humans had no trouble with it and could immediately start training at full capacity.
Love your videos dude
Thanks my dude
In the manga’s English translation, Piccolo lays out the details on the androids coming who even trunks couldn’t beat and tells everyone to prepare to fight people of that level and to not come unless they are sure of themselves. Goku later tells everyone to stay home if they are confident in their ability to fight someone like that. At the least, they’d have been around frieza’s level by the time the androids arrived seeing as they just watched trunks embarrass Frieza and knew they had to be ready to fight someone even stronger than that.
You say this like Yamcha didn’t show up…
@@keinchiAnd?
Yet they have zero feats and never have been showed once to be even close to frieza. It’s all just “well my scaling that I made up says so!”
@shockwavesyndrome6433 This isn't a battle forum. We're using intelligence so scaling based on events that happened in the Manga are relevant.
I like that your name is poohead
Thanks, same
Good analysis as always! A few things a I thought of while watching:
-Goku and piccolo had their weighted clothing on king kai's planet which should have gave them better gains than any other fighter, even though the others usually make better gains than Goku with the same training.
-Tien was on King Kai's planet longer than anyone, so he definitely would have had the highest increase from that training. (Maybe even developed the shin kiko ho)
- Vegeta did pass base Gohan while training in the gap before Buu.
-I dont think any of the humans or base saiyans surpassed Frieza before the Cell Arc. Tien showed up because he knew he had a technique that could likely beat the androids. Yamcha probably showed up because he was feeling insecure about Vegeta. Krillin showed up because he is a true warrior, and Gohan went because its what he trained for.(I guess that could be said for all)
-I also personally think 19/20 are around or slightly below Frieza's level. Gero was aware of basically nothing after the fight with Vegeta in the saiyan saga. I believe they were built to start low powered, but absorb ki to grow exponentially.
- framing it as them all surpassing SS Goku on namek makes it seem even less plausible.
Tien didn't have a technique that could beat the androids. Why would Yamaha risk is life because he's insecure about vegeta? Krillin was the biggest coward there.
@baronn9809 - the neo tri-beam would have destroyed 19 and 20 and heavily damaged 17 and 18.
- yamcha was obviously insecure and felt pressure to prove himself. Like he did with the gravity chamber. Then when he had a hole punched through him and was healed, he had enough.
- calling krillin a coward is insane. The guy has willingly faced threats greater than him time after time. He even taunted Frieza.
@Nathaniel-w5n No it wouldnt have. You're talking about anime filler lol. He couldn't even move in the direction of the androids without freezing up he was indeed the biggest coward there.
My understanding of what's going on here with the amount of improvement characters receive after battles and from training is two things:
1) When a ki master is exposed to someone with superior ki and ki control and techniques, they're able to see and feel what the stronger person is doing with their ki. They can then incorporate this understanding into their own use of ki to quickly become much, much stronger.
This is why it's really hard for anybody to reach a certain level, but then once one character does it everybody else seems to pretty easily. Super Saiyan bargain sale. This also explains why characters tend to all be around the same level. They all bunch up at around the same bands because it's easy to meet a power level someone has, but really hard to surpass it.
2) Teachers get much better after training one person. King Kai wasn't used to working with students like Goku. It took him a lot of time to figure out what worked with someone of Goku's power. He was then able to take his refined training techniques and use them to quickly give them massive increases in power. We saw this same thing happen with Roshi, Kami, and even with Goku when he trained Gohan and Piccolo for those years leading up to the androids. He was a much better teacher at the end than he was at the beginning. We see that when he goes into the time chamber with Gohan.
i just know this vid is gonna be good
FACTS
hell yeah
Bro you are a beast 🫡 happy new years king
Thanks my dude! Happy New Years
Nice to see humans from dragon ball get some love
The narrative slightly suggests through their feats across different arcs after and considering their training regimens, it can be argued that the Earthlings have indeed surpassed Frieza’s first form at least by the end of the 3-year training for the Androids.
Otherwise on Piccolo's warnin, they wouldn't have arrived on the scene against Gero & 19.
I’d love for the Earthlings rival with the likes of Goku & Vegeta or the they’d need to be massively stronger than current SSG Goku to make a big difference. I really like that they gave Piccolo his Orange transformation, and I wouldn’t be suprised if the Earthlings get similar treatment.
The narrative heavily implies Yamcha, Krillin and Tien surpassed Mecha Frieza and King Cold by the time they showed up to fight the Androids, at least to me lol
Narrative never once implies they surpassed Mecha frieza evwr
@@Saintsrow1824 So you're arguing that they decided to not listen to Piccolo's words, and just showed up to make it harder for everyone else. And Tien even did so while leaving Chiaotzu behind so he wouldn't do that ?
@@VRO_000 piccolo doesn’t say what you guys think he said
@@VRO_000 the same yamcha that got one shooted off screen by gero?
@@VRO_000 If he said something about being useful, they could show up even if they are weaker than Freeza. Krillin for example was very useful in Namek saga, and he wasn't beating Freeza anytime ever.
I like to think so. especially considering a big thing in OG dragon ball was everyone trying to catch up to goku and goku making everyone around him stronger.
My assumption for why everyone gets so much stronger than Goku did in much less time from the same training is that since Goku was the first student of Kami and King Kai, he served as the test case for their training methods, and after him they refined their training to double down on what worked with Goku and get rid of what didn't work. So the others benefited from getting the 2.0 version of the training instead of the 1.0 version Goku got.
One other thing is that the post-Raditz power gains show that the Z-fighters are very good at training to the level of the last opponent, so in 1 year they were able to all easily outclass Raditz, with most them being strong enough to 1-shot Raditz. Since they could sense just how strong Freeza and King Cold were, they had a similar benchmark to train towards like they did after Raditz. Unfortunately, the Androids were much stronger than their benchmark, just as Nappa and Vegeta were much stronger than the benchmark set by Radditz.
Considering they knew how strong the Androids would be and still showed up after the 3 year time skip yeah I think they all could take Freeza by the time Trunks returns for the 19 fight.
I just love the thought of Toriyama sitting down, writing his stories with a calculator next to him so he can punch in equations for exponential power growth over time just to see at what level everyone should be at certain moments in time. And when a character transforms, he has to factor in that too.
Manga piccolo with his 4 fingers, always flipping me out.
Always a good day when there’s two poo uploads, even if the first one was somewhat grim subject matter.
Krillin ended up becoming 70x more powerful than Raditz was. That’s kind of crazy
TenShinHan would one shot Frieza: Shin Kikoho!
I love despite how weak Frieza is (Namek) in the grand scheme of modern Dragon Ball, he still remains the benchmark for the whole series.
Frieza really is him
They obviously did, but ofc frieza is a beloved villain so it's hard to admit, but by the time the androids showed up they are all stronger than him.
Their performance in cell games against the cell jrs says it all
Those cell jrs were way beyond Frieza as to one shot Frieza
And the human fighters were in there
If there is a problem with the theory that the humans surpassed Freeza here, it's Trunks. Because Trunks is the only character who didn't get any training during the 3-year timeskip, was already implied to be weaker than pre-timeskip Goku with the finger vs sword test, and was still implied to be stronger than all the non-super saiyans and not that much weaker than Vegeta despite everyone's growth over the previous 3 years. Trunks would have to have been much stronger than his brief spar against Goku implied he was or be weaker as a super saiyan than Tien post-timeskip for that power-scaling to work.
Trunks did get stronger during that time from general survival and his training he could put in as evidenced by 2 things. Piccolo doesn't doubt his capabilities against those he knew Trunks was no match for yet later places Trunks on a higher level than him and not too far behind Goku and Vegeta. Next is the change in his description of fighting the Future Artificial Humans where his assessment of being no match for them changes to him being able to at least put up a fight until it became 2 V 1, making it clear he'd become stronger since his last trip to the past.
The actual thing that puts a problem in the Earthlings being at all comparable to Freeza is Kuririn as he shows pessimism at being able to do anything when he's not a Super Saiyan and then is in awe of Piccolo's strength despite him not being a Super Saiyan, showing he's still far below the level Trunks displayed 3 years prior.
This was a neat video.
I think it was actually a Jump Magazine (V Jump or WSJ) that gave Krillin a 75k power level.
I didn't know Toribot had anything to do with the Ginyu Force on Kaio's planet. Is there a source to that?
Great point about the Earthlings training compared to Goku's training.
I agree with damn near everything except I do think base Vegeta > Earthlings. The reason why is because it just doesn't seem likely they'd surpass goku and at the time the 2 should relative enough that they could be called equals, at least physically.
That being said, Piccolo was also below base goku and he surpassed him. The saiyans relied on Ssj as basically a crutch, so even if the Earthlings did catch up to and surpass their bases, they'd still ultimately be no match.
The Bojack movie actually supports this idea when post rosat base Trunks can't best Tien without using Ssj.
Trunks was basically on par with Vegeta as well.
So that's interesting to say the least.
This subject has been talked about a lot. Dragon Balls escalation has been talk about to death. I don't mind human characters being strong or capable as the protagonist.
This escalation of power is common in several types of media, but it's especially bad in Dragon Ball because of how fast it is. Characters literally get hundreds of times stronger every arc.
In early Dragon Ball escalation progresses but it always had the character keep up with Goku. And grounded the conflict knowing the villain is stronger than the protagonist.
Narrative escalation is like a symphony of escalation, each note building upon the last to create a crescendo of emotions and anticipation.
You know, Super made it worse with having too many characters at the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
NO EARTHLING CAN SURPASS FRIEZA
Very good question! I literally was arguing with someone about this. Tbh i still dont believe any of them were stronger than final form freeza. Krillin probably was 60m at best. Which is absurd.
So you believe krillin is 6000 times stronger than nappa. Someone who can nuke a city from orbit with 2 fingers. Krillin by the way has zero feats and has never even come close to anything even king piccolo has ever done.
15:27 it's not that ki blasts are stronger than a naked punch or a kick but that ki blasts work off a simple trick of using harmonic resonance to destabilize and implode the structure of non living beings or beings whose aura is at least 1/3rd weaker than the person blasting them.
Yup, it's the "shatter points" ability of Mace Windu in star wars or the way wind or narching in synchronization used to be a threat to any bridge whose engineers were oblivious to the nature of harmonic resonance.
I'm assuming you're referring to the Tacoma Narrows bridge, which isn't exactly fair on the engineers who designed it. The bridge wasn't destroyed due to forced resonance, that's a misconception. It collapsed due to aeroelastic flutter not forced resonance. The aerodynamic forces functionally made the bridge have negative damping.
It’s strange how powerlevels are supposed to be linear when comparing one to another, yet they increase exponentially
Why are they supposed to be linear?
It takes a similar amount of effort to increase your power level from 100 1000 as it does from 100000 to 1000000 (both 10 times increases)
But one is increasing their power by 900 levels and the other 900000 levels. Without the context of the starting point it can be a little jarring
In the OG Series, the base Saiyans didn’t even surpass Frieza.
The greatest argument for the humans staying relative in power to the saiyans and Piccolo is the FACT that Chiaotzu did not show up to fight the Androids. If Chiaotzu was 30,000 and the humans were 100,000, hell even 1,000,000,, both powerlevels are EFFECTIVELY the same compared to the multi-hundred million powerlevels the saiyans and Piccolo would have.
So it's safe to say the humans were relative enough in strength to the saiyans and Piccolo to show up like they did.
They always showed up tho 😂
Ok. So nappa who was I don’t know like 7500 at his best, can literally make a nuclear bomb stronger than any existing one with two fingers. But I’m suppose to buy chaoitzu who has zero feats, is four times stronger? Give it a rest.
@@shockwavesyndrome6433 well hold on now, the 30,000 figure was just to prove a point, I wasn't claiming Chiaotzu hit those numbers, but if he HAD, there's no way the Z fighters were also relative to that number.
@@Cratossama LOL
They were above Captain Ginyu and below first form Frieza in the Android Saga. There is no way they got that much stronger in just 3 years.
Short answer: yes.
By the time Cell came along, it's easy to say that Frieza would have been easy work for even Piccolo, and certainly Gohan. I would argue by the time of the Buu saga, all the Z fighters, including the humans would have easily surpassed Frieza. Bringing him back over and over again as a threat is really dumb.
I'm not going to argue against the point being made, but i do have some concerns about a particular piece of evidence. You have mentioned a few times that Toriyama worked with the anime during the Ginyu force vs Earthlings fight, which you see as an endorsement that the power in the fight is semi-canon. I disagree. I mean it may end up being right, but not for that reason.
George R R Martin was a producer for game of thrones on hbo. He even wrote an episode. An episode that was drastically different than the version in the book. You couldn't use anything he wrote in that episode as evidence for the book. The show is a different canon. I think just because toriyama was on board with that anime scene doesnt mean he approves of the scenes as canon for the manga
I think the ultimate problem with how power scaling worked in Z in regards to power levels is that it makes the training in dragonball make no sense - goku and piccolo did all the training they did and by the time radditz arrived they were in the 400s? Absurd.
Thank you for not using Anime-only Filler. Toei filler says Yamcha eclipses Super Perfect Cell in the Buu arc.
unfortunately, Gregory was able to sneak into the video...
Just wanna say I really enjoy your content!
Your logic does make sense
I just can’t allow myself to believe any of the humans EVER achieved that level of power in the whole series.
Triple your power 3 years in a row? How? The resources available to them didn’t change? It doesn’t make sense that you’d be able to grow exponentially like that doing the exact same things. At some point it’d have to flatten out to get from 5k to 15k. Then 15 to 45 then 45 to 135 doing the same training doesn’t sound right to me
The best UA-cam videos are the ones that have slideshows with voice no music or fancy transitions
Old topic, revived!
Power level are bullshit ofc. Tien would wipe his butt with frieza by the time of cell arc, he managed to keep semi perfect cell in a hole for a minute. Thats more than any super sayajin 1. For others its not certain if they suroassed frieza before Super. By times of DB Super Toriyama decided to disregard any logic in power scaling and anyone apart from maybe Chaotzu became as strong as plot required.
Thing is, they always did that.
Goku trained with Kami for like 3 years and he wasn't even half of Raditz's powerlevel, but then the others trained with him for less then a year, and all of them could beat the Saibamen of the same power, and Krillin even just killed multiple of them with 1 blast.
From a powerscaling perspective yes they did, by a LOT
Consider this, they did not complete the same amount of training as Goku did, so they likely did not get as strong as Goku when he fought Vegeta. We never see any of the z fighters use the spirit bomb or kaioken. They also do not get the zenkai boost and take longer to learn new techniques whereas Goku has been a prodigy since childhood. Mecha-frieza they were scared of Frieza still. They mistook Yamcha for Goku because their data was from before Namek. I would argue even Super the humans were not equal to Frieza and rely more on techniques to overcome enemies.
the door still is weird, they could have just punched through the rocks AROUND the door, surely the rocks are not stronger than freeza
the idea of the door being galaxy level is funny lmao, but if gero can make a freeza+ android i dont see why he cant make a freeza+ door
Of course, the door was one of the missing numbers...
Agreed, Gero could easily make a super door. But yeah they prob shoulda gone around
Time and time again it seems the DBZ fanbase assumes because Toriyama had to make choices on the fly for a weekly publication schedule that it meant he put absolutely NO thought into his writing.
I think tien is the only one with a chance at beating names frieza. Since he was able to keep semi-perfect cell at bay with tri beam cannon. Tri- beam should be able to severely wound names frieza.
well krillen and tien beating up pikkon and alibu says they dipped on frieza in every possible way
Well you can't really say that their training with Kaiō-sama, wouldnt have had realistic results, you guys are forgetting that it was a few amount of days, but it was never specified which kind of training the Z warriors had, plus gravity, plus the fact that they were dead which means they likely never took breaks during their training, which if you double the amount of story line days in dragon ball it would be double, hence if they tell you they trained for 5 days during the Freezer saga, they likely fought equaling 10 days, and according to sources the Freezer Saga lasted 40 days, so it can be estimated they fought equaling to 80 days or over two months.
I’ve been waiting for someone to do a video on this because of how ridiculous cell-buu sagas power scaling is sometimes ☠️
Not like Frieza saga is that much better.
Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million in one Zenkai for example.
@ Ik it’s head canon but many say that zenkais (early on at least) make you as strong as the enemy you need to beat bc of saiyan biology or something like that
@@harunogiobana4642vegeta literally gets humiliated by frieza after getting a zenkai
People seem to forget that it's a HUGE dropped plotpoint that Saiyan-Human Hybrids are supposed to be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than Pure Saiyans. If nothing else this means that Humans should be just as stong as Saiyan, but for different generic factors. (Presumably weaker naturally but able to become atronger from training.)
El Manga Legendario does the Ginyu Force aside from Guldo/Ginyu range from 40K to 50k. Battle of Gods also has Beerus saying Goku is weaker than Freeza in base after the Boo arc. Vjump also seems to indicate that that early Boo arc Gohan is below 40 Million in base if he fought against Yakon. I don't see any indication that the humans got stronger than the base Saiyans. It's possible but I don't see anywhere in the series where it's implied.
If Humans could have become stronger than Frieza, then there should have been tons of Saiyans that would have surpassed him way before he destroyed planet Vegeta.
I think they did even though they shouldn’t have Toriyama doesn’t use logic & gave Roshi a power creep in TOP when he was too weak to even fight the sayians
Yo poo head I got in a debate recently. It was if raditz saga goku was small planetary. I wanted you take on it
Hmmmm, well there's really no way to be sure, but considering Roshi blew up the moon and the moon is close to being a small planet, I'd say Raditz could do it.
Goku at the boo saga was at base form was at 65M. Freezer at full power was 120 M. So, I don't think for a second any other earthling could even get near Goku, and of course forget Freezer.
No power levels are official after the Frieza saga.
However Goten and Trunks were able to fight 18 in base in the Buu Saga. It’s clear anyone stronger than the kids’ base from could 1-tap Frieza.
Goku is gifted. The series makes that clear.
I don't think King Kai who has a power level below 4k can train someone up to 5 million. They might grow exponentially at start, but at some point it's going to level off and training under 20x gravity just isn't going to get you stronger anymore. Goku and Vegeta had to constantly push new limits and find new masters to get stronger. It's more reasonable than they were approaching 1 million when Frieza came to earth.
Espero que canal continue até o inevitável colapso da sociedade
3:06 tougher training but no Kaioken 😭😭
I always thought the humans had surpassed freizer by the android saga, there seems to be no cap on power levels for anyone in dragon ball, just an advantage for some species (saiyans) to gain power
Also they didnt train to learn the kaio ken nor the spirit bomb and focus on base stats and not skills
Who wins, 2 of the strongest humans in the series or one big door?
Kuririn did in DBS as he was on part with SSB Goku's Kamehameha, but pre-DBS? No.
He was not lol. Goku can adjust his Powerlevel to Krillin in Super Saiyan Blue.
El Manga Legendario states the Nail-Piccolo Merger quintupled his power, so he was around 200k meeting nail
Based on this mindset, Vegeta should have been as strong as Perfect Cell after the second Time Chamber…
I think they did. Look at how fast they improved just by training with Kami for less than a year. They were already capable of completing the task Goku did with king Kai much faster than Goku so they had extra time to spar. Tien trained with King Kai for 270 days (about 9 months) and Yamcha for 130 days (4.5 months) and for the majority of that time they trained together which increases your improvement. Then they trained for 3 years straight for the androids. I think they all are around Freeza’s 2nd form level by the time the Android Arc begins with Tien Clearly being the strongest of the 3. Tien continued to train consistently after the Cell games while Yamcha and Krillin did not so I’m sure Tien surpassed Freeza over the 7 year time period. He probably was strong enough to kill Final form Freeza with the Kikoho back in the Android Arc. Krillin and Yamcha aren’t much weaker than Tien but they didn’t keep up their training. It’s like when train later on in super manga they are much stronger than they were at the end of Z and definitely stronger than Freeza.
Tien and Yamcha based off what they do shoudl be stronger than Krillin but krillin is the best friend character so he’s as strong as the story needs him to be. It will not allow him to be weaker than them for long. Tien is the exception he’s always been written to be superior to Krillin
the only weird think abt this is that, goku and vegeta base form should be stronger than frieza too, still I think they need super saiyan at least (ofc talking abt Z only)
16:23 he did not use full force
Freeza saga power levels simply don't make sense at all. Krillin having a power level of 75,000 a mere hour after getting 1-shot by Reecome, or Goku/Vegeta's zenkais multiplying their power level by 10 times despite zenkais giving just a slight power boost before - Akira clearly didn't think too hard about the issue, or there's a point that the power level system just doesn't work.
I believe it's better to analyze the issue based on feats alone. Tien managing to hold Semi perfect cell down, taking on a Cell jr for a few instants, and deflecting Buutenks's ki blast are better indicators of his power, and those feats put him comfortably above 100% Freeza.
Maybe not in power level, but since Frieza doesn't regenerate Tien and Krillin could take him out.
unrelated to power scaling id like for the series to take a "skill over power" type direction, Tien should be just as good in a fight as goku considering that all the guy does is train and fight. The same way that IN JJBA you could have a crazy powerful stand but not be smart enough to use it correctly and get beat by someone with a weaker stand that uses it better
If in a yr or 2 krillen went from 1400 to 70000 that shows that humans get some sort of zenkia boost so to believable atlseat krilling got to 500k first from freeza..
If they had Kaioken, i could put them on par with Final Form Freeza when he first transform into it.
But since they don't have Kaioken or Potential Unlock like Krillin, the most i got is like First to maybe Second.
Killin had the lowest potential of all Earthling fighters. He took the longest to learn Kamehameha out of all Kame's apprentices and his Ki attacks remained the weakest even during the beginning of Z. His "disks" were born out of a necessity of making his paltry Ki potential useful by multiplying it's efficiency using a bladed shape.
Just remember Goku could freely manipulate his Kamehameha and even release it through his feet, Yamcha turned into as Sphere and could freely control it to follow his opponent.
Krillin only learned how to do that in Z.
So while yes, Tenshinhan and Yamcha need a potential unlock. No Krillin's potential unlock don't put him far above the others like most fans think.
Krillin controlled his ki blasts in the fight with piccolo and learned to fly before yamcha and seemingly Goku. With his potential unlocked he was almost as strong as potential unlocked Gohan.
Aint no way any of them approaches 150m lol
I just noticed that Piccolo is switching between 4 and 5 fingers in his hand
Namekian regeneration?
@MatthewJamesKalasky i think mistake in drawing
@@kacperas1806 Yeah. I was just joking.
Manga vs Anime, always annoyed me.
@@Ashfold_Eberesche in manga he sometimes also have 5 fingers
I didn't even watch the video yet and I'd say they can't. Simply on the bases of humans don't have the same level of potential as saiyans, namekians, and the race of Frieza. Even if they trained everyday of their life like Tien, that's simply a power they can't reach naturally or by training alone. Tien might be able to take on 1st form Frieza by the end of the dbz series but final form Frieza, especially at 100% is out of reach of super human capability.
There is no potential cap in dbz. The real problem is there rate of growth is capped because they don't have transformations
@baronn9809 Yes there is. If they didn't have a cap, they would have limitless power as soon as someone unlocks their potential.
@princeindisguise that's not how potential unlock works. You can get stronger after. See gohan and krillin.
@@baronn9809 Even so I doubt everyone's cap is limitless. That should only apply to when their dead in the otherworld.
Great video man
Saiyans are able to train under heavier gravity and weight which is a boost in itself.
I guess if one of those 3 reached 1st form Frieza powerlevel that is already too much, probably Krillin is around Captain Ginyu's powerlevel and that's already insane for an earthling, maybe Tien is somewhere in between Ginyu and 1st form Frieza since he never stopped training, I really doubt a human could ever compete with a being like Frieza, he was the strongest being in the universe for a reason and even a special elite warrior like Ginyu could only surpass, barely, only 1/5 of Frieza's most supressed form.
I did all this same maths. This is why I came the conclusion that Frieza could not be 530.000 in 1st form, when Piccolo and Nail combined would be a generous 100k at best. And Frieza was clearly somewhat over that, say 120k. Otherwise he would have pulverized Piccolo. I think it was a mistake of adding another 0 to 53k when Frieza said it. That would also be in line with Vegeta, who could not possibly reach 530k. He goes from 18k -> 24k -> 30k with 2 zenkais, and +1 zenkai now he is 530k? wtf. He could generously reach 45k and he could still give Frieza a struggle. This is my headcannon but I think there is plenty of evidence to support it, just now what the official sources say. I think they messed up.
Nah cus nail is 42,000 and frieza absolutely bodies him
@@r.mariano8118 you can body him with 10k plus easy. Think Qui being like 4-5k less than Vegeta - One Shot