Is It Vulnerable Narcissism or BPD?
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- Опубліковано 18 кві 2022
- Dr. Ettensohn discusses the differences and similarities between vulnerable narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).
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References:
Lingiardi, V., & McWilliams, N. (Eds.). (2017). Psychodynamic diagnostic manual: PDM-2 (2nd ed.). New York: Guilford Press.
Music: www.bensound.com
#npd #narcissism #mentalhealth #mentalhealthawareness #psychology #healing #vulnerable #covertnarcissist #bpd #borderlinepersonalitydisorder #psychologist #psychoanalysis
I will remove comments that are abusive to any individual (including myself) or population. This includes comments that are abusive toward pwNPD.
Too often. The sensations and overwhelming lies, the brain can’t process the enormity of the lies we tell ourselves.
@@Lemoncare im. Overtly critical of myself to the pint its irrational
I dont want to be this way... how do i become better. It destroys ALL MY RELATIONSHIPS. And i end up having to swallow the pain and end it so that i don't hurt them anymore. Could you please make a video on how we could help ourselves heal... I cant do this anymore. I ACCEPT everything, I need a solution. I am not a bad person, i wont let myself cross that line into malignance. I have been crying through all your videos because they resonate so deeply with me. I dont care what the world says about how we cannot be healed, I will overcome. Could you please help me be better
holy crap a youtube mental health channel that actually cares about narcissists wellbeing? I don't believe it, pinch me.
@@Giga3D811
Having insight, that means awareness, is the first step and THE MOST IMPORTANT factor that is going to gravitate toward your recovery. Second, it’s to get an accurate Diagnosis and according to this, get an appropriate therapy.
This is not an easy road, I’m a doctor myself but I’m not psychiatrist and even though I spent the last 14 years trying to help my son, he received several different diagnosis but none of them explain exactly why he struggles so much in everyday life.
A year ago I find out that a cluster B diagnosis (BPD/NPD) explains better my son, I am currently working with a new psychiatrist and I will see if she can finally give us a diagnosis and the appropriate treatment that my son needs. My son was diagnosed with ADHD at 4years old, then Asperger’s at 10 yo, then Depression with suicidal thoughts at 14 yo and received several antidepressants for the last three years with no improvement, for this last reason I believe that he does not have depression but I am more inclined for a personality disorder.
I just wanted to illustrate you how difficult it is to get a right diagnosis, probably in the case of my son because he was a child. I have no idea how old you are, but if you are older than 18 yo is going to be easier to diagnose any PD because for younger age we consider that personality is still developing.
It’s the first time I am watching this channel so I don’t know what is his recommendation as a treatment for NPD and/or BPD but I just got to know about DIALECTICAL BEHAVIORAL THERAPY and I’m going to give it a try.
I hope you take the time to read my message because I want to wish you good luck 🍀 ❤❤❤❤❤
Once again, you nailed it! Perfectly explained, and not overly dramatized or negatively pronounced as monsters but shown as real humans who were severely harmed by humans.
Thanks 😊
Sympathy for these people is wholly undeserved. Perhaps have sympathy for their victims instead. They deserve it.
@@user-kcrpineExactly. I stopped listening half way through. I've been diagnosed with PTSD (from narc and psychopath abuse from my early childhood) and Major Depressive Disorder. And told by every therapist that I definitely do NOT have a personality disorder, because I am not abusive. Time to stop making excuses for people's bad behavior. I'm not perfect. The interpersonal difficulties I work on, are lack of boundaries and codependency.
It’s not all the time being harmed that originated NPD, also overindulge when parents treat their children as if they are superior to the rest.
Also some genetic is involved.
@@user-kcrpineYou sound like a victim 😂
i would love to see an episode about helping those with NPD get help. as someone who is open about their NPD, i get a *lot* of questions from people saying "how to i make my x get help" but you cant just make someone do anything, and id like a video explaining it in more depth (what can be done, what cant be done) that i can listen to myself and send to those people
Thank you for your content. I really enjoy jow relatable and understandable your videos are. However, I have a question:
When are you going to make a video about actually healing NPD? I understand that working with professional therapist is the preferred way, but I would be very grateful if there were more resources about how to recover for those of us who can't or are not willing to attend the therapy yet.
I picked up on that too, although I wonder whether healing for NPD is a reality, or whether it's more about self-awareness and management of one's feelings and behaviours.
@@neilcampbell1763 There are a number of self aware narcissist channels, who are all in therapy. They all say they will always have the disorder. However, remission is possible for those who work hard in therapy, and get the right help w/ a therapist they trust, who actually treats them w/ compassion. They can learn to recognize what's going on at their core, so they can slow down the poor impulse control and automatic maladaptive responses that hurt those they are close to so much. The maladaptions are ultimately destructive to them too.
It's a year after your question about doing other things besides therapy. What did you come up w/, and did you get into therapy yet? Cluster B Milkshake was working hard on understanding her disorder w/ studying channels, taking notes and doing her videos. She did recently get on a waiting list w/ Dr. Ettonsohn for therapy though. I'm pretty sure white knuckling it isn't enough. Awareness and research has to help in some ways, it would certainly start you on a road to healing. It's kind of like the blind leading the blind though. A blind man can't lead himself.
@Sainte Jeanne d'Arc Sounds promising. I really do hope you're right. Although, tragically I think it would be true to say that most NPDs are unlikely to make it to self awareness in the first place, not least because it's counter to all the defenses and wrong thinking that is manifestly NPD.
A scary prospect for a Narcassist, a case of painful mortification if you do, relentless anxiety and imsecurity if you don't.
A heck of a conundrum, thankfully, people like Sara signal hope for those strong enough to see themselves in the mirror.
@@neilcampbell1763 Apparently 53% that do get treatment can achieve a type of remission. That's surprisingly high, esp. considering what conniving monsters they are made out to be on the narc abuse type channels. They make out to be helping, but most have a grifty shifty feel to me. It's become a cottage industry. All the ones I've heard that are self aware all admit they knew for a long time that something was wrong. And they would get plenty of clues that they just didn't think and relate like other people. Most can't maintain a grandiose state, and that deep shame would tell them something is definitely wrong.
My ex mentioned the shame, the entitlement, being selfish, and lack of empathy. He had actually looked into narcissism a bit before me, because he was concerned about his lack of empathy. I told him just last month that I think he has NPD. Not in any mean or demeaning way, but more a Dr. Ettonsohn kind of way.
The love-bomb->devalue->discard cycle just comes round more frequently with a borderline due to their push-pull confusion LOL!
That and the fear of abandonment cycle.
Great video, easy to understand. Thank you!
Wow this is fantastic information. Thank you!
This was extremely clear and on-point
Thank you again for another great episode. Your voice is so calm and reassuring and despite it being a difficult topic to explore I feel so validated by your explanations.
You are very welcome.
This was sooooo helpful. Thank you. I watched several other videos with similar titles before watching this one… yours was by far the clearest explanation. 🙏🏼✨
Very insightful. Truly grateful!
the first explanation he means : borderline pathological organization
the difference is that in NPD you got a PATHOLOGICAL GRANDIOSE SELF that includes ( real self-ideal self-and ideal others)
That’s Kernberg’s model, yes.
thank you for this video Dr. Ettensohn. In the next video, could you please talk about the false/true self theory? I've read about Winnicott's theory and that seems fascinating. Also, on how treatment aims to unveil the authentic self of a person and lessen the false self. I'm diagnosed as NPD and frankly I'm not really sure what's my authentic self behind the defenses. I realize this worry might be because of my OCD as unfortunately I'm diagnosed with it as well.
Hi Neon - thanks for listening and for the great topic suggestion!
Did you ever manage to do a video on true/false self? Sounds really interesting!
I am so glad I found your videos! I have spent a couple years in confusion trying to understand what was going on with a sibling, and though I was following several of the most popular and qualified narcissism experts for a couple years, I didn't really understand the situation well enough to avoid feeling confused at times. Now I KNOW what really happened that turned a sibling into someone whose behavior towards me is unpredictable and confusing!!! In my sibling's case, I believe BOTH NPD and BPD are factors. I have another relative who has been diagnosed with BPD but doesn't accept this diagnosis as accurate. Is that typical? Is it rare for these people to actually see themselves, because of the self-esteem issues?
Perfect explanation
Huh. I seem to have all these borderline distortions infesting my mind, but I do have an academic understanding of self-other boundaries... even though it seems like everyone else's personal bubble is the size of Jupiter's orbit. So far as I know, I do not exhibit any of the ignited rage or wild behavior commonly seen in Cluster B, erroring more on the side of social withdrawal and a constant smoldering pain in my chest that drains all of my energy.
Most of my grandiosity is manifest in occasional performances and internet interactions, with the death stare being used for aggressive people. My ideal persona is fairly new to the public in IRL interactions, but I'm really intent on sculpting it into something truly amazing. Being what is called a "deep thinker" though (a polished turd of a term, if you ask me), I must bear the burden of knowledge that I can never be as good as I desire. I feel hobbled and strapped down, unable to release the beast within no matter how much I desire it.
I don't know if you'd like to look into this, and I know your comment is old, but "quiet bpd" might be worth learning about
We all struggle with not playing out the emotions we feel to their fullest extent. Maybe you're just overthinking natural emotions? It's OK to have feelings, welcome them, just don't let them define who you are. Feel them and then let them go. Even verbalise them perhaps.
It may be worth looking into the symptoms of CPTSD from early childhood traumas too. There's a guy called Richard Grannon that has done some great work in this area, that may be of benefit.
incredibly helpful, thanks.
Glad to hear it
I’m curious which of the four presentations of BPD you’re referring to when relating it to vulnerable narcissism? I’m aware one type of BPD overlaps significantly with NPD, however not every individual with BPD externalizes rage or projects blame onto others as the cause of their distress or negative experience.
Very interesting, thank you
Thank you. I feel like for the first time there is hope. The stigma is real. Thank you for understanding me as human and not a monster.
This was very helpful Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
please do a video on interviewing people who have healed
Ultimately BPD and NPD are constructs that should be taken with some grain of salt. The idea that a person either fullfils all of the criteria of clinical construct A or of construct B is flawed. Neurobiology doesn't adhere to our human made taxonomic divisions as expressed in (for example) the ICD-10. Yes, ICD-11 has made some progress, but still it's limited in it's capacity to describe and logically structure mental and psychiatric phenomena. So to ascribe someone as having NPD or BPD, that's a rather arbitrary process. One and the same person visiting different therapists or psychiatrists will possibly be diagnosed with different disorders. Yet we communicate and treat these clinical constructs as if they were definite, when reality is that they are not. I guess this is how Clinical Psychology attempts to maintain a facade of being a scientific discipline, when a lot of it's methods, models and approaches center around subjective philosophical interpretation of natural phenomena, not an exactly scientific, evidence based understanding.
I don’t disagree with what you are saying. The current DSM diagnostic framework is not particularly helpful or meaningful. This is why part of the episode focuses on a metric for estimating severity of disturbance. To my mind, that is the more important piece of information. In the end, these diagnoses are really suggestions of organizing themes that might be occurring within a mind. We should not reify them. That is also why treatment must be a dialogue between patient and clinician. The meaning is made together, not derived from a book.
What you're saying is tragic, because NPD/ BPD diagnosis is not a philosophocal concept. It is science like anything else. Misdiagnose will just mean that a patient will not get proper help, because NPD psychodinamic is different than BPD. The thing that education on this is quite poor both in USA and Europe does not mean BDP/ NPD is a mistery box.
@@user-gs9tb4tl4d I have the impression that you may have misunderstood my comment?
What I'm referring to is the difference between a) natural phenomena (such as neuropsychiatric disorders) and b) our human models, descriptions and categorisations of these natural phenomena. a) and b) are not the same! Ultimately a) is what matters.
Think of it like that: a person being described as having NPD suffers from that condition that NPD tries to describe regardless of whether you refer to that condition as NPD or by another name or even if you have no term of reference for it at all. What matters is the natural phenomena that exists in the real world, the condition, not the academic terms and models used to describe the condition. Especially considering that the theoretical terms and models used to describe the same disorder may change over time (as they have done so dozens of times) once we gain a better understanding of the underlying mechanisms.
"Narcissism" is premised upon a very odd and mythological idea about mental functioning, not upon a scientific understanding of the relevant neurobiological mechanisms. Hence it can hardly be called a science-based concept, but rather a philosophical-mythological one, at the very least in origin.
Nature doesn't know NPD nor BPD. What exists in nature are deviations from the "normal" way of mental functioning found in the average human being (the statistical norm, if you want to put it that way). These deviations can have different causes, but for the most part there is a genetic predisposition / congenital element and at the most basic level they are neurobiological and neurophysiological deviations in the brain, that can cause an underfunction (compared to "healthy" normal controls) in some aspects of cognitive functioning. These underfunctions manifest as distinct patterns of behaviour, such as increased impulsivity or decreased empathy. Some of these symptoms are shared by the theoretical constructs NPD and BPD.
So in short: mental disorders as categorized in the DSM or ICD are at best useful (for treatment and administrative purposes) approximations of natural phenomena. They are however not definite, but rather subject to change, once a better understanding of the natural phenomena that one attempts to describe has been gained.
@@esahm373 I think it is very narcissistic to ask questions and not to look into obvious answers bombard with manuscripts of irrelevant to the question textst. 😏 good luck
@@user-gs9tb4tl4d Did you even make a minimum effort to try to understand what this particular comment thread is about? Feel free to open your own comment thread if you don't want to participate in the discussion that I opened here.
Frank Yeoman’s and Otto Kernberg published a paper distinguishing the differences between NPD, BPD, ASPD and Bipolar. Apparently 50% of the patients coming into the personality disorder clinics were misdiagnosed with Bipolar. That’s wild. 😂 Anyway. The differences between BPD and NPD given are bizarre to me. I’ll show you what I mean.
“Patients with a severe narcissistic personality disorder may present symptoms strikingly similar to those of borderline patients: general impulsivity, severe chaos in relations with significant others, severe breakdown in their capacity for work and emotional intimacy, and parasuicidal and self-mutilating behavior.”
-Frank Yeomans, MD & Otto Kernberg, MD
Off to a good start. I agree. Here’s where they give distinct examples of how to discern the difference between the two. I disagree with all of them mostly. Wonder what your thoughts are? I’m just some dude on the internet, I don’t have MD after my name so.. 😂
1. People with NPD have difficulties accepting any sort of dependence on a relationship. They lack any real investment in relationships with significant others(except for the connections as described below) Their aloofness contrasts with the highly ambivalent and dependent relationships of patients with BPD.
Overlap: Both NPD and BPD patients may seem to have a strong dependence on those connections with others that may serve them personally, particularly parasitic relationships; ie. bumming off friends with no intention to pay them back, non-reciprocal relationships where the other does all the giving, attention/praise(NPD) and or emotional support(BPD), leeching off family members, living rent free, not paying bills.
*The differences described above aren’t as much of a variation in conditions, rather a distinction between attachment styles?*
2. PwNPD show extreme fluctuations between immense feelings of inferiority, failure, anxiety, depressive symptoms and anhedonia on the one hand. On the other hand, a sense of superiority and grandiosity that shows in their dismissing behavior toward others, including their therapist. PwBPD may alter their relationship between clinging dependency and idealization, on the one hand, and vehement devaluation and dismissal, on the other hand, but they do not show the chronically contemptuous attitude that Narcissists present.
*I see where Frank and Otto are coming from, but I mostly disagree with this statement. Both pwNPD and pwBPD idealize and devalue their partners, both of which look similar in their presentation. The chronic contempt shown by Narcissists seems to be more of a masculine trait, not so much the defining characteristic used to decipher two mental health conditions from each other. Even when the pwNPD is presenting as the overtly vulnerable, shy or fragile self state, the contempt remains chronic, all pervasive and ubiquitous. I call it a sullen superiority and a morose haughtiness. Lol. Men, not to mention grandiose men, tend to express their disdain more overtly, while women primarily conceal their scorn as to avoid escalating conflict, out of fear of being ostracized from the group(evolutionarily speaking), only for it surface later as passive aggression. This is a contrast in gender dynamics, not personality disorders*
3. PwNPD, who are on the more severe end, are usually isolated socially, even if they are part of a social network. They lose their friends and do not maintain relationships over an extended period of time, and their loneliness contrasts with the complex, contradictory yet enmeshed relationships of borderline patients.
*I mostly agree, but I’d also like to point out how pwBPD tend to isolate themselves just as much. Perhaps they can cling to relationships longer, but this also seems to be more of an issue with gender dynamics. Women in general, personality disordered or not, tend to keep old connections alive more frequently than men because they prefer not to end things on bad terms. They may be vague or lie about the reasons for breaking up, harking back to #2, not being direct, being passive to avoid confrontation and or to bypass hurting feelings. I’m fairly certain women end relationships significantly more than men do, granting them the power to hold on to exes as friends*
*Regardless, I’d even go as far as to suggest that pwNPD have occasional periods of Schizoid-like isolation, brought on by any number of things. For example, a pwNPD may face public criticism, but somehow the disparaging comment seem to thread the needle, slipping through a pin hole within his armor of grandiosity, resulting in devastating narcissistic injury. The criticism pierced through and hit a major artery, so the pwNPD can’t recover properly. For days, weeks, months, perhaps even years, the pwNPD ruminates incessantly about the humiliation, invoking a debilitating shame*
*This entices the pwNPD to become a recluse, to hide away from the world until the wounds heal, but there’s an internal dissonance that will not go away. The pwNPD becomes agoraphobic and the trepidation causes more narcissistic injuries. The malign superego chastises the Narcissist, dismembering every piece of self worth that remained. The consequential agony derives from the yawning disparity between the Narcissist’s projected image and the unforgiving reality that was publicly exposed. The pwNPD can’t cope with this, it’s as if life was an illusion and it was shattered without warning. Disoriented and forlorn, the Narcissist faces the inevitable horror of a collapsing false self*
4. In contrast to BPD patients who present different aspects of their internal world from one moment to the next, patients with NPD at the borderline level mask the fragmentation and weakness of their identity under a brittle and fragile grandiose self that they present to the world and to themselves.
*Yes and no. Just because Borderlines struggle to mask, doesn’t mean they don’t mask at all. Borderlines describe how exhausting and mentally draining it is, claiming they can only ever hold it together for a few hours at a time, if that. There’s still an attempt present, it’s like this repetition compulsory act of trying to prop up a false self, yet failing to maintain it. Every Borderline I’ve ever had the pleasure of dating(lol), we’re the MOST bubbly, lively, energetic, free spirited people I’ve ever known. How is that not a facade? Just like me, any criticism or slight, or perceived signs of hostility or abandonment, is met with a crumbling of this facade at free fall speed. To me, it’s as if they have a false self, but it’s (more) unstable, perhaps due to later trauma between ages 5-10, usually sexual abuse. This could have caused some sort of fracture of the false self? Idk. That’s just my observation. It’s like they’re in this repetition compulsory act of propping up a broken facade only for it to fail over and over*
*Hence the transient manic phase in BPD. It seems to me, that’s their attempt at trying on a false self outfit, but after a few hours or maximum, a couple of days, it invariably falls apart. Just a thought, I cannot provide evidence of this. Just my observation. Also, Narcissists don’t always mask behind a grandiose facade either, they often endure violent swings in self worth, between the self state of overt grandiosity, covert vulnerability then plummeting to the self state of overt vulnerability, covert grandiosity*
*All of that said, I often wonder if BPD and NPD are the same entity. While, what Otto saw mostly, the pure grandiose Narcissists, seem to me to be Primary Psychopaths, not Narcissists? Just my uneducated opinion*
Edit: Oh; I think we are on the same page, at the end you said they’re not really distinct diagnosis rather different expressions. I say it’s gender differences but who knows
www.nyp.org/pdf/bpd-resource-center/Kernberg-Yeomans-20131.pdf
How common is self-harm and/or suicidality in vulnerable narcissists?
I know they threaten self harm all the time.
It is my understanding that they don't self harm.
From my understanding, for people with NPD there are less threats or attempts as there would be for pwBPD, but that for NPD the success rate is very high, arguably equal to those with BPD. Regardless the statistics, always take it seriously and seek professional help.
@tsireya ♡ and how does it feel when the person doesn't feel guilty nor shows sympathy? If this person just shut down, blocks you or disappear? How does it go for you? What types of people do you let go of? I'm trying to understand the mindset from a respectful perspective.
@@user-ur7wg5qh5i One thing relationships with narcissistic individuals should teach you, in time, is that prioritizing yourself and your needs before another person is actually not selfish. Real love, at least for adults, is NOT unconditional. If your needs are not being met and the other person isn't willing to discuss and work through issues with you to ensure both parties at least arrive to a compromise, then you should let them go, regardless of how much you care about them.
Just remember: love is more than an emotion/feeling; it's actually more of an action.
For me the biggest take away was NPD - self worth, BPD - closeness vs abandonment.... i feel there are a few more considerations tho such as intentions, NPD seem to have conscious premeditated actions that they are well aware of in their favour and if so desired against another's, whilst BPD seem to have unconscious reactive actions with little to zero thought on any outcomes to themselves or others good or bad.... Also i see with NPD again a conscious mask to protect and not divulge much at all and if so for a premeditated result, BPD tend to over share and will tell you very personal details straight away which i guess falls under the closeness/abandonment... i feel NPD do not want genuine connection and view everyone as a threat and/or a competitor whilst BPD it seems genuine connection is more important than breathing.... Ultimately there are so many maladaptive coping mechanisms that overlap..
yup yup, uphill battle. :')
Very true. BPD are almost like an open book with the oversharing and just putting it all out there so people can ger a taste of exactly what they're getting into straight away and they wear their heart on their sleeve, I thought. Also, BPD crave deep and genuine connection, while NPD, not so much. You can't really get deep with them because everything's a facade, and all about maintaining the image of their false self and everything is about them. Plus, the empathy thing, I think there are huge differences, but I know there's a huge spectrum with these disorders, and I can see where they can interlap, but I wish the differences would be talked about more.
Are you sure there is hope for NPD??? You are the first channel that I see to state this.
I hope you can answer because I have family members with a great chance to have these diagnosis. Thank you so much ❤❤❤❤
@ginaqc78 - Absolutely there is hope, as long as the person wants be helped and is willing to put in the work in therapy (which is true for almost any mental illness). There are many channels that present a vilified, sensational picture of NPD because it is easy to do so and it attracts viewers. I’m glad you found this channel and encourage you to seek out other non-stigmatizing sources of information. 🙂
❤@@healnpd
Could a video be made differentiating between the borderline level, the borderline pattern and borderline personality disorder? maybe the differences between HPD and NPD? also, "and theres hope for healing". thank you so much for that.
Hi, thanks for this great explanation. Is DBT the standard for treating NPD then? Considering it’s so effective for treating BPD.
There isn’t really a gold standard of treatment for NPD at this time. Several manualized (eg DBT, TFP, MBT) approaches have shown effectiveness in recent studies. I find DBT to be particularly helpful with low distress tolerence, poor interpersonal effectiveness, and high levels of reactivity to thoughts and feelings. The DBT modules were designed to address those aspects of BPD, and people with NPD often have those issues as well. I will sometimes refer patients to DBT as an adjunct to psychotherapy.
If I have a loved one that is showing signs of either NPD or BPD, but they refuse to seek help. Is there a book or resource that might help them at least start learning about the impact of their childhood on them adulthood or something like that? Something that they might not immediately try to push away from because of their defense mechanisms kicking in against 'perceived' criticism.
I'm looking for something like this as well!
I suggest that the word "borderline" be reserved exclusively as the name of Borderline Personality disorder (BPD). Using that same word - borderline - to quantify the degree of severity of any other personality disorder introduces confusion. BPD is a common and distinct syndrome. Future research may prove that BPD and Narcissistic personality disorder are actually different syndromes at any degree of severity, and that their apparent overlap at "borderline" degrees of severity is a mere coincidence, or due to the use of insufficiently specific diagnostic criteria. Some experts say that BPD is so named due to dysfunctional separation of the BPD patient's psyche i.e., their "borderline" can encompass another person's identity, leading first to idealization of the Other, then inevitably to disappointment and depression.
Borderline Personality Disorder derives its name from the borderline personality organization referenced in this video. Borderline personality organization is a distinct construct that provides a high degree of explanatory power within the analytic model. I agree it can be confusing. I wish it had a different name, but it doesn’t.
Eh. Not sure why you think that BPD and NPD have no similarities at all. I think it’s a fair assessment to say that they’re identical, only separated by the presence of Grandiosity. When a Narcissist is presenting as Vulnerable, there’s absolutely no difference between that and a pwBPD.
My ex fiancé is BPD and we were like Twins. It’s the fact we share the same internal core(emptiness). We share identical feelings, the emotional ups and downs, the highs and lows. The intrusive thoughts of being inadequate, useless, stupid, ugly, and unlovable.
We share similar eternal judgment from malevolent internal voices, condemning us for every minor mistake; a internal hell we just cant escape.
We share the same internal melancholic narration, a depressing commentary painting the world around us in black and white. We share that same visceral longing for a love, which can only come from the other half of our bereaved soul. We connect on a level which transcends carnal desire.
@brandonmcalpin9228 I think it really just depends on the two disordered individuals. Some with BPD seem to be almost polar opposites to narcissists. Consider the quiet subtype of BPD. I know, people don't want to acknowledge there are subtypes but I feel they're as real and relevant as anyone using terms overt and covert narcissist. I was diagnosed at age 16 with BPD and several other things, not NPD, and not any other personality disorder. My psychiatrist back then told me I needed to develop some narcissism. I had no idea what she meant, and she explained that I lacked healthy narcissism. She taught me so much. I know with BPD and NPD we do have some things in common, but in some ways, in some individuals, they're as different as night and day. I do know some people with BPD diagnosis who seem to have been misdiagnosed or something. It could just be that they're lower functioning or higher on the narcissistic spectrum. I'm a little confused about the main differences now, because I know of some people with BPD who are quite grandiose at times, but I assume they have a comorbidity with NPD. There's apparently a about a 25% comorbidity rate between the 2 disorders. I definitely don't think grandiosity is the only distinquishing factor between them. I truly hope this will be discussed more soon.
Thanks, it's a really interesting video!
Does it mean to say that people who have borderline personality organization are for sure to have a personality disorder or not?
As I understand it, people with neurotic personality organization can have OCD, GAD and so called neurotic disorders but they don't have full blown PD-s.
Could you help it to make this clear?
Wow, this was the video i was looking for... But to throw another comorbidity into the mix. Whats the difference between an NPDs defensive facade and an ASD masking? Please help. 🙏
One cannot give that what one has never received... Self is a electo-magnetic field connecting our society.
I have bpd anx i also struggle with perfectionism and self worth. During euphoria i can feel some grandiosity. Does that mwan i have npd too ?
Is it common for someone with this kind of personality organization to discard someone but then feel like that person abandoned them? Then they smear that person (that THEY discarded) about how horrible the person is for abandoning them. I would love to hear what you, Dr. Ettensohn, or anyone else has to say about this. What is the discarded person supposed to do in this kind of situation?
That sounds like a strange situation. There are so many possibilities. Personally, I think people are going to think whatever they want to think. If you're close to the people they're "smearing" you to, then all you can really do is state your side to them. I'd rather my information come straight from the source. Things are sometimes lost in translation. Abandonment doesn't always mean physical abandonment. Maybe this person meant they felt neglected, unheard, emotionally neglected for some reason, so they decided to end the relationship, though I wouldn't call that a "discard" necessarily. That's only one possibility. It kind of sounds like some misunderstanding, incompatibility, or just plain growing apart to me. Still, it's not nice to know anyone's talking about you behind your back, especially if you feel your character is being attacked. I've experienced this as well, and it's no fun.
@@Stopnormalizingviolence I was wondering if someone may discard you hoping that you chase but, when you don't, deals with it by smearing you and saying that it was you who discarded them, to get supply from people's reactions and sympathy about how horrible you are for leaving them, even though it was them that left.
@myutube5882 Sure, it's possible. You never know what's going through someone else's mind. Maybe by telling other mutual contacts you abandoned them, they're hoping you reach out to them. Have you tried to contact them? Do you want them to be part of your life again? I see posts like these on Quora sometimes, using the word "discard". To me, if someone discards you, they're done with you. The behavior you describe doesn't seem like a true discard to me, if in fact they're telling your mutual contacts you abandoned them. That just seems like some immature passive-aggressive behavior, imo. Whether or not it's meant to tempt you to chase them, I don't know. I don't like to assume things like that about others I don't know. Personally, I'm direct with people, so if someone I cared about did this, I think I'd reach out to them to find out why. Or do you not want contact with them anymore? I've seen people say this a lot, that they went "no contact," yet they want to reach out to the other person. Unless they told you not to ever contact them again or something, I'd go ahead and reach out if that's what you want to do.
Yes! You get on w your life & if they reach out someday, go w whatever your heart says♥️
Hi. I have been diagnosed with BPD and I actually done that once. I discarded someone because I felt quite hurt and then felt abandoned because this person didn’t try to come back to me. They let me go, which for me is an abandonment.
Hello. The difficult season I am in is about my grown son. He has just begun serving a prison term. His diagnosis from pre-sentencing court investigation is vulnerable narcissism. I know his history includes childhood trauma. Sadly, the generational cycle carried through to his children. But, as a mother, I see him as more than the worst things he has done. I love him and long to have hope he can change through therapy. I wish to visit him in prison and convey those thoughts but I do not wish to enable him in some way to think he does not need to change. Basically, I wonder the most beneficial things I might say or do to support him in using his time inside constructively. Can you recommend an author or UA-cam channel as a resource for me to learn best communication for my son’s growth, commitment to change and his well-being?
Hey mama, you have a wonderful ❤. If your son has accepted that he has npd, please let him know he can talk to you about everything, and anything, without judgement. Any lie he may have told you, it's OK. Just tell him that whatever he's done, you know he did it because he was afraid and ashamed, but you love him no matter how much he thinks he's failed, and you wanna know the real person on the inside. Ask him if he is willing to share something, no matter how small. And whatever you do, encourage him that if good people knew how much he was suffering, they wouldn't be angry with him, they would understand. And please just love him and absorb all of his criticism, because in every harsh way he judges others, there is a voice in his head saying the same thing to him.
I'm not a therapist, but when I became self-aware, i was so fortunate to have a friend who accepted me as a person who wants to heal. She saw my pain and kept loving me. Basically our whole friendship was me lying to her about why I am, and she made a choice to keep loving me. I have no idea why. But she gave me to courage to speak with my other friends and eventually my family. The family part didn't go well because they used it as an opportunity to dump on ms and bring it up as a way to belittle me. But, I realize now , that's their problem, not mine. My mom passed a year ago, and I miss her everyday. What I wouldn't give to hug her one more time or see her smile. Just loving your boy, and not giving up hope, that means so much.
@@whitewings2363 thank you for your reply. I love my son and want to support him. Your personal experience gives me hope that my son, too, can make changes if he wants to. I wish you the best going forward in your life.😊
Some use their pain to cause pain in others. Others use their pain to heal themselves. If you're the former, stay the hell away from me. I know who you are and will always shut you down. Always. Shut. You. Down.
if a person with vulnerable npd has a child, and is a "failure" themself, does it happen that they project their perfectionism on the child? wanting the child to be perfect instead of themself?
Honestly, no matter how many times, it’s eloquently explained, I still get rattled.
What is splitting, ?
Thank you very much, the more awareness, the healthier we all are.
@Desiree Rana ok, but what does the person do? Dissociate, react, because there does come a time, when ya have get off the fence, good bad or indifferent.
I thought it was the personality that checks out. Still confused.
Splitting is the inability to hold opposing thoughts, feelings, or beliefs. A person who splits sees the world in terms of black or white-all or nothing -- instead of seeing both sides of the story. People with BPD (and possible comorbid NPD) have deep-seated feelings of insecurity and can't control their emotions. The react on feelings instead of responding with facts. So when they feel threatened with abandonment or rejection, or by feelings of shame or guilt, they will react defensively by splitting from a friend, partner or family member and often discarding the relationship altogether.
It took me 4 years of work before I started seeing it in others. Actually when a person sees themselves as a victim and other person as mere abuser that is splitting. Abused children grow into adults that split easily in the face of difficulties for instance, they truely feel incapacitated and world and other ppl feel like too powerful. That is split. The difficulty to see comes from splitting being non - concious process although it affects the concsious. It is when a person feels the other in exaggerated manner. For instance person sees oneself as someone who can do no harm and other as completely viscous. That is self - idealization image. The person rejects his/ her agressive impulses.
You mean that a vulnerable/covert narcissist is just a collapsed overt narcissist? Tha main difference is the absence of grandiosity?
Thank you!
Essentially, although the idea is a bit simplified for this podcast episode/video. Also, it's important to point out that vulnerable and vcovert are not the same thing. Narcissistic vulnerability can be either covert or overt. The same is true for narcissistic grandiosity. Often, both vulnerability and grandiosity are present in an inverse covert/overt relationship. For example, someone who is overtly grandiose will often have covert vulnerability underlying the grandiosity. The flip side of that coin would be someone who is overtly vulnerable and whose vulnerability is based on covert grandiosity. Vulnerable narcissistic patients usually have unconscious or implicit perfectionistic standards for themselves and others. Many socially anxious or chronically depressed vulnerable narcissists view social situations through a lens of unconscious (covert) entitlement. They feel they *should* be special or the center of positive attention, and experience anxiety or depression when those entitled expectations aren't met. They are often surprised to learn that their expectations are in fact entitled and unrealistic because they don't experience their feelings as "wanting to be the center of attention." Instead, they only experience the disappointment and inwardly-turned rage that results from *not* being the center of attention.
@@healnpddamn, i didnt know that! thank you!
What is the difference between the ones you mentioned and COVERT?
@lindavincent678 - This might clear things up regarding covert presentations: Overt Or Covert NPD? (the answer will surprise you)
ua-cam.com/video/Hq8yW6rs5iw/v-deo.html
So it’s possible to have both because of the low self esteem and the fear of closeness/abandonment?
I'm curious what his thoughts are as well. I have had little self worth, because I didn't have a sense of self at all, but my disorganized attachment style is preoccupied with fear of closeness / abandonment but only in romantic relationship. Though I would say I identify as an aware narcissistic individual with disorganized attachment style.
@@Jacquelinerenees I spent thousands of hours studying all this because i knew someone very special to me. What i think is that all narcissist have bpd, the more they are high functioning, the more they are self aware and somewhat stable. Narcissism seems to be a coping mechanism depending on the personality and the harshness of the childhood.
@@sofp narcissism is absolutely a defense mechanism. In fact, I have recently observed within myself the desire to become a false version of myself to stay connected to a partner. This came from a period of expressing my authentic self and when a need arose that he couldn't meet, I observed how my brain and body immediately wanted to abandon my need to become any version of me that didn't put the relationship at risk. It's actually quite sad.
Y’all need to discover Sam Vaknin, gosh!😮
The middle of the vid, says the NPDs and BPDs can get depressed? As someone diagnosed with PTSD and Major Depressive Disorder from a lifetime of abuse from NPD and BPD parents, siblings, partners, friends, and employers -- I have never seen any of them get depressed. They're too busy abusing other people, alcohol, religion, and drugs.
@oceanside659 - Both NPD and BPD are significantly associated with depression. I can’t speak to your experience, but I can speak from my own clinical experience as a specialist who treats this disorder. Pathological narcissism and NPD are about unstable self esteem and associated coping deficits. These issues sometimes result in abusive behavior, but that isn’t the ‘essence’ of narcissism. Chronic unstable self esteem and issues coping effectively often lead to depression and substance use. They can also lead to suicide, which is also significantly associated with both NPD and BPD.
This is one of the very few channel that can bring true insight and not be provoking victims. How can we heal these ppl who casually kill loved ones smiling. They suffer inside and others die off without justice in generational pain of the narcissistic cult of shame and filth and abuse. Thank you dear. This is at the end for me and I must face the narc. I managed a year of no contact but he induced suicide and is knighted and never going to jail. Much love. I really pray there to be ways to eradicate this horror. This contagious evil must end. Blessings.
can you please not call narcissists "people who casually kill loved ones smiling"? that is a massive generalisation that really harms this population. i dont think that it should be linked to cults either (apart from when were recognising that the trauma of growing up in one can cause NPD)
The way you characterize NPD on this channel is interesting, but I wonder how it contrasts from AvPD. Your characterization of vulnerable narcissism in particular basically just sounds like AvPD to me.
I heard that it can look like that in treatment settings.
There may be some overlap. It is unclear. I read some AvPds are really vulnerable narcissists. Personality disorders are a work in progress.
What is example of distorting reality defenses?
My ex def had both.
🎯
Will a person with NPD attempt to hurt themselves or allow themselves to be hurt because they believe they are bad people?
Yes, possibly. If the self is perceived to have failed to live up to covert grandiose expectations, suicide is an associated risk.
I think projection isn't a symptom of BPD. They're paranoid outbursts that can easily be confused as a projection. It's an episode!
Can someone have both?
Yes. Personality disorders often blend together, especially ones that are closely related like BPD and NPD.
These descriptions don't seem to line up with those by any other professional that I've read or watched here on YT, leaving me skeptical.
Do vulnerable narcissism feel empathy and want to help if they see poor people?
Generally, individuals with pathological narcissism and NPD are not incapable of empathy. Instead, their ability to feel and express empathy is impaired or obstructed by distortions and deficits in their perception of circumstances and appraisal of situations. In low-stakes situations that don’t threaten self-image, pwNPD can feel and express empathy. This video might be helpful: ua-cam.com/video/54eJzXU9LfI/v-deo.htmlsi=Vm8By3teVWKZJgvw