26:49 I’m looking forward to finishing this video, but at this moment I’ve already had to SMH. I hope you guys really drill into how you define worship but more importantly how the Bible defines it, and your problem with Tom’s Biblical definition, which seems to be his whole premise from my perspective. If you watch the video where he summarized all seven videos in one, the first two undeniable facts are what you guys need to deal with. You are using the term worship already without defining it. Tom takes great pains to explain why the modern definition of worship was not the way the New Testament church understood the Greek words that are translated as worship. I am hoping this video gets better, and I’ll get to revise my statement.
I appreciate the close examination of my "stuff." Due to my crazy travel schedule and conference commitments right now, I regret that I won't have three free hours to listen to your insights for several more days. But I promise that I will watch the entirety of your video, and I look forward to an opportunity for discuss this openly with you all.
I'm looking forward to your response. Imo even though these guys are really gracious, their push back seems to fall short. I only made it halfway through the video but I have only heard one decent objection imo and that is the use of ecclesia in the Septuagint.
I am new to your teaching, and while I am **very** intrigued, I am also slightly skeptical. I'll be the first to admit, however, that my skepticism is due mainly to my discomfort that what you teach is contrary to our practice rather than finding any objections that I have in Scripture. I came to this video primarily to see if there are any reasonable objections to what you teach. If you are able to find time to discuss your thesis with these guys then I would appreciate seeing if they can raise Biblical objections to what you've so clearly pointed out in Scripture. But if you don't have the time then I understand that as well. God bless us all as we seek out His will for our lives and the gathering of His people.
Love Tom Wadsworth’s work. Tom is spot on!! We attend a home church for the past 20 years. I’ve learned so much since meeting at home without a pastor and institutionalized structure. We don’t need pastors and church buildings.
Paul saw a need for some kind of church leadership to guide them. Acts 14:23 "When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they entrusted them to the Lord in whom they had believed." It's possible that the 21st century American construct of "pastor" is different from these first century leaders, but Paul definitely felt that leadership was essential (1 Tim 3; Titus 1, et al.).
@@tomwadsworth “The HIRELING 'Fleeth' BECAUSE he 'IS' a 'H-I-R-E-L-I-N-G', And Cares 'N-O-T' For the sheep." ~ JESUS CHRIST ~ (St John 10:13) ~~~ It's 'Not' that Role of 'Pastors' is Wrong,,, JESUS IS The 'Good' Shepherd !!! ~~~ (GOD Commands us to 'Shepherd' HIS Flock !!!) ~~~ The Underlying ISSUE is with 97% of Pastors BEING "Hirelings"; ~~~ (JESUS Specifically 'Warned' about) ~~~ “You ‘CANNOT’ Serve GOD,,, ‘A-N-D’ Money.” ~ JESUS CHRIST ~ (St Matthew 6:24) ~~~ :) ~~~ 'Hirelings' TURN the 'church' (Assembly) into an 'Extortion' FEST !!! ~~~ ",,, Nevertheless we have NOT used this ‘Authority’, But Endure ALL things, lest we should 'HINDER' The (F-R-E-E) Gospel of Christ." ~ Apostle Paul ~ (1 Cor 9:13) ~~~ “NOT Because we have NOT the ‘Authority’, But to make ourselves an ‘E-X-A-M-P-L-E’ Unto you To FOLLOW ‘US’ !!!” ~ Apostle Paul ~ (2 Thess 3:9) ~~~ :) ~~~ GOD's EXAMPLE 'Preacher', or 'Edifier' (Apostle Paul) was a TENT REPAIR MAN !!! ~~~ :)
I feel like this video serves as a great example of the differences between the worship model of church and the edification model of assemblies of the Ekklesia. I'm now 30 minutes into this video and it has been mostly preparatory content. When I clicked on the video, I was hoping for a critical analysis of Mr. Wadsworth's thesis. Yet other than a cursory statement saying that "we disagree with him", the rest of the time that you've spent so far has just been filler - introductions, fixing a broken microphone, sponsorship messages, etc. Maybe I'm being unfair to you folks, but I'm cutting my viewing of this video short right here. This isn't a question so much about the style of the video as it is about the priorities of your message. I took great care to watch the entire seven hours of Mr. Wadsworth's videos because he was able to get to the important material right away and stick to it. From the time that I invested, I now fully understand his thesis and the Scripture that he uses to back it. And while I may not agree with all of his points, he makes a substantive argument in favor of the church being primarily a place for the edification of the saints rather than of mostly vertical, temple-like worship. I can't say that I'm at this point with your video, nor am I sure that I ever will be. A quick bit about me.... I was born and raised in the Christian Reformed Church and have spent all but the last few of my 61 years in Reformed circles. I believe that doctrinally there is a lot of good stuff in Reformed theology. I've been an elder in my church and participated in the life of the church. Yet a few years ago, I gave up on the institutional church after watching the leadership of my church put themselves ahead of Christ in the administration of Christ's body. In the 20+ years before leaving the church, I had seen this common pattern among all of the institutional churches that I had interacted with, whether Reformed or Baptist or Pentecostal or Catholic or Orthodox. After leaving my church, I found that I no longer had a home in any of them. All church leadership in the institutional churches claim to be the most representative of our faith when in fact what they seem to care about most is their style and rules. Christ as the head of His church seems to be an afterthought at best and foreign concept at worst. This is what has drawn me to Mr. Wadsworth's thesis that the church is primarily about edification. Again, I'm not totally sold on his teachings, but it's hard to refute his interpretation of what appears on the surface to be clearly present in the **context** of Scripture. It also seems to line up well with what we hear Jesus say in John 10:27, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me". Perhaps I'll revisit my decision to cut short this video if you are able to interview Mr. Wadsworth directly.
if its not too much of an inconvenience sir , can you tell me which parts of dr wadsworth's thesis you dont agree with? i am at the fourth video , i am intrigued by his teaching and plan watching all 7 videos. 🙂
@@henricorossouw2400 thanks for asking. Before I start, let me encourage you to finish the series. I thought that he could have done without episode five as it seemed a bit off-topic, but otherwise I appreciate his concern for the assembly and I agree with that concern. Please forgive me for as I try to address your question. I know that my response is rather long. Then again, you asked, so be careful for what you wish for. 🙂 In case you don't care to read my long dissertation below, the short answer to your question is that I'm cautious by nature and when someone comes along with appears to be a pretty radical idea then I want to be sure I'm not just going down a rabbit hole. As a computer prgogrammer, I've spent 35+ years having to filter between good ideas and bad. I'm not afraid of change, but I don't want to change just to be different. This is especially true when it comes to the Body of Christ. I need to be convinced that such a significant change falls within God's will. It's my inner skeptic that currently troubles me and makes me wonder what I may be missing. At minimum, I think that if Mr. Wadsworth wants to stop using the word "worship" and return to the literal "prostration" in these texts, he would do well to better define what he thinks this means in the context of the assembly. Is he talking about a physical prostration in which we all lie down on the ground before God when we assemble together as Christians, or is this more of a spirit/heart matter that we address as we gather? I completely agree with his desire to eliminate the temple cult that has crept back into our gatherings, as well as the elimination of the priestly class (pastors, worship leaders, etc) that we've built up in our congregations. I'm just not certain what, if anything, he wants to replace it with. Combine this with the fact that this is all so new to me and it leaves me uncertain. But I am listening intently and open to being influenced. Now that you have the short answer, please let me elaborate a bit if I may. I have known for a very long time that something is wrong with our interactions with one another as Christians. Going back as far as the early 1980's, I spent nearly 30 years listening to Contemporary Christian Music (CCM). Being a fan of music with a beat as Mr. Wadsworth also appears to be, there was much to appreciate about the style of this music. Yet over time that music wore very thin. The final blow was when the word "edification" entered my lexicon. I realized that little of what I was singing enhanced the life of myself or my fellow Christian. The music was constantly telling me to "lift up" God, yet it was not God who needed affirmation but rather the individual next to me in the pew. I finally quit listening to CCM and got rid of anything that I had that was related. I don't miss it at all. It is similar to when I hear a person leading prayer when they start every other sentence with the words, "I just pray that..." If you are prayer leader for the group, shouldn't your prayers start with the collective word "we"? And why use the word "just", as if the thing that you're praying for is somehow unimportant? God hears all of our prayers, and He considers anything that we feel important to be important too. While He may not answer our prayers in the way that we like, there's no indication in Scripture that He lacks compassion for His children. By saying a corporate prayer like "I just pray that You cure Bob's cancer", you demean Bob in two ways. First, Bob needs the support of the entire community of believers which the prayer leader represents. And second, Bob's cancer is important, if not only to him. Please forgive me if this point sounds nit-picky, but this type of language fully showcases our narcissism as we gather together. Mr. Wadsworth is right in that we are a community of believers, and I think that we should start acting as such. Another reason that I think that our assemblies are broken is when I look back on my growth as a Christian and see where it occurred. While I learned a lot in the institutional church setting, those times that I grew the most occurred outside of the church setting. It wasn't until I was at a two-day conference on the resurrection in my 40s that God finally confronted me with the historicity of the resurrection, thereby completely changing the way that I understand the cross and how I witness to others. This is despite the fact that I grew up in the church and attended Christian education from kindergarten through college. I also remember a time when I bumped into a fellow parishioner at a Starbucks where we had a most pleasant conversation about our faith. I left that encounter wondering why our church services were never so engaging. Church for me has always been about following an order of worship including a 30+ minute lecture on a Bible passage. God forbid that I raise my hand to ask a question or dispute a statement made by the pastor. I only saw this happen once in a service where a balding, older gentleman stood up after the sermon to debate what the preacher had just said. Yet there have been a few times where I have been tempted to do just that when Christ took a back seat to the minister's opinion. So again, my apologies for the length of my response. I thought it important that you understand that my interest in this matter is not because we're dealing in what is new territory for the church or that I somehow don't respect the system that we currently have. I have often been accused in the past of not submitting to church authority, but nothing could be further from the truth. When I left my last church a few years ago, it was because I was told by its leaders that it was more important for me to do the will of the elders than for the elders to teach me how their actions placed Christ at the center of our life and practice. I'll close my thoughts here with a passage from Col 1:15-20... _15 [Christ Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross._
1:23:00 I have to say I really appreciate the charity and graciousness with how you all are communicating. However, this format being a discussion and a presentation all in one is very difficult to follow. There are a lot of rabbit trails and side commentary. And it’s difficult to see Tom’s perspective side-by-side with your perspective. I think I’ll leave it here and wait for Tom to come on your show to discuss.
Paul defines worship in Romans 12: 1,2: Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. That is: transforming of mind! Not the Sunday performance where most people watch others 'do Christianity' with liturgical ceremony (which is *every* church assembly even if it is not formally liturgical), the highpoint of which is the ceremony of The Sermon!
How can get a copy of the powerpoint used in this video? I have family that are really into this and have shared the video but they asked if the presentation was available anywhere...
This is more of a reaction than a response which is why I would have suggested this show be held after first thoughtfully interacting with Tom's material whiich I assume they did then wait until you could have him on the show to interact with him.
@@rossjpurdy to make Christian assembly to be wrong for having a vertical focus, how is that any different than just being a good, moral humanist? It seems like a fundamentalist mind game that strains the gnat to the point the big picture collapses on itself
@@ContemplativeSoul Tom does not argue that it is wrong, just not the primary focus of the point for gathering. Our whole life always has a vertical connection. Specific activities have specific purposes horizontally and the point of gathering is to edify one another. To lose sight of that fact is to fail to edify one another.
"GOD that made the world and ALL things therein, Seeing that ‘HE IS’ LORD of Heaven and Earth, Dwelleth 'N-O-T' in temples Made with hands; Neither is 'Worshipped' with men's hands, As though HE 'Needed' Anything, Seeing HE Giveth to All Life, and Breath, and All Things." (Acts 17:24-25) ~~~ “HEREIN is My Father ‘Glorified’; That ‘Y-o-u’ bear MUCH FRUIT: So Shall ‘Y-o-u’ Be MY Disciples.” ~ JESUS CHRIST ~ (St John 15:8) ~~~ “BLESSED is that servant, whom his Lord When He comes Shall Find DOING.” ~ JESUS CHRIST ~ (St Matthew 24:46) ~~~ :)
I think you guys are gracious and you are steelmaning Toms points which i appreciate. I am struggling to follow the logic on most of your argument though. I think your strongest is the use of ecclesia in the Septuagint. But i still dont think its a knockout punch.
what's then the function of Jesus' sacrifice if a ceremony is still needed in addition to that? It's acceptable if it's just a rememberance, but to say that the ceremony functions as sacrifice, it will render Jesus' sacrifice seems like it's insufficient.
@@FaithUnaltered if it's just a re-presentation, then it's supposed to be optional. Jesus never demands a specific ceremony. What Jesus said was that everytime they eat bread drink wine (which they usually do in assemblies), do it in remembrance of Him. Jesus didn't introduced anything new there, He just added new meaning to what they've always been doing.
THANK YOU FOR ALL THOSE INSIGHTS OTHERWISE UNAVAILABLE FOR GREEK OR HEBREW MINUS LISTENERS I ENJOY THE LIGHT CONVERSATIONAL TOUCH NO GRATUITOUS POLYSYLLABIC EXCESSES HERE,, NO SELF AGGRANDIZING PHD-ESE
I just want to say as a Hebrew Roots-inclined believer, I do highly appreciate the more high continuity approach y'all take and the quotes and notions mentioned from about 30mins-1hr15mins
On principle I would be afraid to claim to have DISCOVERED something NEW theologically AS IF for 2000 years everybody else has been wrong or unenlightened. Jesus would never let that happen. ALL THE SAME I BELIEVE IF SOMETHING IS NOT IN THE BIBLE CHUCK IT.
Not impressed at all. It's easy to tear something apart when the author can't answer. Some of you approach seems like circular reasoning. Like for example how you guys use the word worship in light of what he is saying, you're not orientated to show whether he is wrong or not, you're orientated to assume he's wrong from the outset.
@@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYouCourtney claims he misquoted Gupta, but Courtney seems to have misunderstood the context of what Gupta was saying and the context of what and why Wadsworth was quoting that particular section. Also labelling Wadsworth with words that import baggage that doesn't fit, while claiming not to put him in a box. Your clearly trying to put him into theological boxes that are defined by post reformation thinking and even maligning him with people like Stanley who wants to unhitch the OT. Ridiculous connection. This video is an example of maligning and gossip. I'm not going to go blow by blow, but I have loads of problems with this assessment and critique of Wadsworth who has told me via email no peer review scholars have had significant issues with his dissertation. This video is UA-cam gossip, something that seems to be all to common for Christian youtubers. I got banned from Dr Heiser's DCW Facebook page because I called out this video as being premature and treating Wadsworth unethically and with very little respect for the sake of making a controversy before the Author has had a chance to speak. Very unprofessional and very unethical. It's a big problem in Christian UA-cam channels.
@TheLookingGlassAU sounds like you're mad because you got banned for your BS in the DCW group and taking it out here. Disagree with us, fine. I'm just peachy with that. Calling us gossips like you're St. Paul will get you kicked outta here too. Make a claim, show the evidence or shut up and cry somewhere else. It's really that simple. We have Wadsworth coming on to discuss and NOT ONCE has he said we stated anything in a sinful way against him. ~Tyler
I admire your patience in digging into this. I had come across one of his videos recently, but felt too much like he was trying to gaslight his listeners, it just seemed so preposterous. The points he does try to admit would have more validity if they were more nuanced and everything wasn't pushed to have an exaggerated meaning- and out of context too. If he's CoC it makes sense because their exegesis is notorious for this
You waste our time telling us what your structure is going to be, what you are going to address, etc. How about just getting into those topics without wasted words all around the issue?
26:49 I’m looking forward to finishing this video, but at this moment I’ve already had to SMH. I hope you guys really drill into how you define worship but more importantly how the Bible defines it, and your problem with Tom’s Biblical definition, which seems to be his whole premise from my perspective. If you watch the video where he summarized all seven videos in one, the first two undeniable facts are what you guys need to deal with. You are using the term worship already without defining it. Tom takes great pains to explain why the modern definition of worship was not the way the New Testament church understood the Greek words that are translated as worship.
I am hoping this video gets better, and I’ll get to revise my statement.
I appreciate the close examination of my "stuff." Due to my crazy travel schedule and conference commitments right now, I regret that I won't have three free hours to listen to your insights for several more days. But I promise that I will watch the entirety of your video, and I look forward to an opportunity for discuss this openly with you all.
I'm looking forward to your response.
Imo even though these guys are really gracious, their push back seems to fall short.
I only made it halfway through the video but I have only heard one decent objection imo and that is the use of ecclesia in the Septuagint.
I am new to your teaching, and while I am **very** intrigued, I am also slightly skeptical. I'll be the first to admit, however, that my skepticism is due mainly to my discomfort that what you teach is contrary to our practice rather than finding any objections that I have in Scripture. I came to this video primarily to see if there are any reasonable objections to what you teach. If you are able to find time to discuss your thesis with these guys then I would appreciate seeing if they can raise Biblical objections to what you've so clearly pointed out in Scripture. But if you don't have the time then I understand that as well. God bless us all as we seek out His will for our lives and the gathering of His people.
@@tomwadsworth well I love your "stuff" ☺ blessings.
@@toddbu-WK7L Stay tuned.
I am glad that Christians are taking your work seriously Dr Tom, and discussing it thoroughly. Praise God!
Love Tom Wadsworth’s work. Tom is spot on!! We attend a home church for the past 20 years. I’ve learned so much since meeting at home without a pastor and institutionalized structure. We don’t need pastors and church buildings.
And this is why we are pushing back against Tom's work...
Paul saw a need for some kind of church leadership to guide them. Acts 14:23 "When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they entrusted them to the Lord in whom they had believed." It's possible that the 21st century American construct of "pastor" is different from these first century leaders, but Paul definitely felt that leadership was essential (1 Tim 3; Titus 1, et al.).
That’s not a very sustainable model now is it?
@@FaithUnalteredGo get'em!
@@tomwadsworth “The HIRELING 'Fleeth'
BECAUSE he 'IS' a 'H-I-R-E-L-I-N-G',
And Cares 'N-O-T' For the sheep."
~ JESUS CHRIST ~
(St John 10:13)
~~~
It's 'Not' that Role of 'Pastors' is Wrong,,, JESUS IS The 'Good' Shepherd !!!
~~~
(GOD Commands us to 'Shepherd' HIS Flock !!!)
~~~
The Underlying ISSUE is with 97% of Pastors BEING "Hirelings";
~~~
(JESUS Specifically 'Warned' about)
~~~
“You ‘CANNOT’ Serve GOD,,, ‘A-N-D’ Money.”
~ JESUS CHRIST ~
(St Matthew 6:24)
~~~
:)
~~~
'Hirelings' TURN the 'church' (Assembly) into an 'Extortion' FEST !!!
~~~
",,, Nevertheless we have NOT used this ‘Authority’,
But Endure ALL things, lest we should 'HINDER'
The (F-R-E-E) Gospel of Christ."
~ Apostle Paul ~
(1 Cor 9:13)
~~~
“NOT Because we have NOT the ‘Authority’,
But to make ourselves an ‘E-X-A-M-P-L-E’
Unto you To FOLLOW ‘US’ !!!”
~ Apostle Paul ~
(2 Thess 3:9)
~~~
:)
~~~
GOD's EXAMPLE 'Preacher', or 'Edifier' (Apostle Paul) was a TENT REPAIR MAN !!!
~~~
:)
I feel like this video serves as a great example of the differences between the worship model of church and the edification model of assemblies of the Ekklesia. I'm now 30 minutes into this video and it has been mostly preparatory content. When I clicked on the video, I was hoping for a critical analysis of Mr. Wadsworth's thesis. Yet other than a cursory statement saying that "we disagree with him", the rest of the time that you've spent so far has just been filler - introductions, fixing a broken microphone, sponsorship messages, etc. Maybe I'm being unfair to you folks, but I'm cutting my viewing of this video short right here. This isn't a question so much about the style of the video as it is about the priorities of your message. I took great care to watch the entire seven hours of Mr. Wadsworth's videos because he was able to get to the important material right away and stick to it. From the time that I invested, I now fully understand his thesis and the Scripture that he uses to back it. And while I may not agree with all of his points, he makes a substantive argument in favor of the church being primarily a place for the edification of the saints rather than of mostly vertical, temple-like worship. I can't say that I'm at this point with your video, nor am I sure that I ever will be.
A quick bit about me.... I was born and raised in the Christian Reformed Church and have spent all but the last few of my 61 years in Reformed circles. I believe that doctrinally there is a lot of good stuff in Reformed theology. I've been an elder in my church and participated in the life of the church. Yet a few years ago, I gave up on the institutional church after watching the leadership of my church put themselves ahead of Christ in the administration of Christ's body. In the 20+ years before leaving the church, I had seen this common pattern among all of the institutional churches that I had interacted with, whether Reformed or Baptist or Pentecostal or Catholic or Orthodox. After leaving my church, I found that I no longer had a home in any of them. All church leadership in the institutional churches claim to be the most representative of our faith when in fact what they seem to care about most is their style and rules. Christ as the head of His church seems to be an afterthought at best and foreign concept at worst. This is what has drawn me to Mr. Wadsworth's thesis that the church is primarily about edification. Again, I'm not totally sold on his teachings, but it's hard to refute his interpretation of what appears on the surface to be clearly present in the **context** of Scripture. It also seems to line up well with what we hear Jesus say in John 10:27, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me".
Perhaps I'll revisit my decision to cut short this video if you are able to interview Mr. Wadsworth directly.
amen.
if its not too much of an inconvenience sir , can you tell me which parts of dr wadsworth's thesis you dont agree with? i am at the fourth video , i am intrigued by his teaching and plan watching all 7 videos. 🙂
@@henricorossouw2400 thanks for asking. Before I start, let me encourage you to finish the series. I thought that he could have done without episode five as it seemed a bit off-topic, but otherwise I appreciate his concern for the assembly and I agree with that concern. Please forgive me for as I try to address your question. I know that my response is rather long. Then again, you asked, so be careful for what you wish for. 🙂
In case you don't care to read my long dissertation below, the short answer to your question is that I'm cautious by nature and when someone comes along with appears to be a pretty radical idea then I want to be sure I'm not just going down a rabbit hole. As a computer prgogrammer, I've spent 35+ years having to filter between good ideas and bad. I'm not afraid of change, but I don't want to change just to be different. This is especially true when it comes to the Body of Christ. I need to be convinced that such a significant change falls within God's will. It's my inner skeptic that currently troubles me and makes me wonder what I may be missing. At minimum, I think that if Mr. Wadsworth wants to stop using the word "worship" and return to the literal "prostration" in these texts, he would do well to better define what he thinks this means in the context of the assembly. Is he talking about a physical prostration in which we all lie down on the ground before God when we assemble together as Christians, or is this more of a spirit/heart matter that we address as we gather? I completely agree with his desire to eliminate the temple cult that has crept back into our gatherings, as well as the elimination of the priestly class (pastors, worship leaders, etc) that we've built up in our congregations. I'm just not certain what, if anything, he wants to replace it with. Combine this with the fact that this is all so new to me and it leaves me uncertain. But I am listening intently and open to being influenced.
Now that you have the short answer, please let me elaborate a bit if I may. I have known for a very long time that something is wrong with our interactions with one another as Christians. Going back as far as the early 1980's, I spent nearly 30 years listening to Contemporary Christian Music (CCM). Being a fan of music with a beat as Mr. Wadsworth also appears to be, there was much to appreciate about the style of this music. Yet over time that music wore very thin. The final blow was when the word "edification" entered my lexicon. I realized that little of what I was singing enhanced the life of myself or my fellow Christian. The music was constantly telling me to "lift up" God, yet it was not God who needed affirmation but rather the individual next to me in the pew. I finally quit listening to CCM and got rid of anything that I had that was related. I don't miss it at all. It is similar to when I hear a person leading prayer when they start every other sentence with the words, "I just pray that..." If you are prayer leader for the group, shouldn't your prayers start with the collective word "we"? And why use the word "just", as if the thing that you're praying for is somehow unimportant? God hears all of our prayers, and He considers anything that we feel important to be important too. While He may not answer our prayers in the way that we like, there's no indication in Scripture that He lacks compassion for His children. By saying a corporate prayer like "I just pray that You cure Bob's cancer", you demean Bob in two ways. First, Bob needs the support of the entire community of believers which the prayer leader represents. And second, Bob's cancer is important, if not only to him. Please forgive me if this point sounds nit-picky, but this type of language fully showcases our narcissism as we gather together. Mr. Wadsworth is right in that we are a community of believers, and I think that we should start acting as such.
Another reason that I think that our assemblies are broken is when I look back on my growth as a Christian and see where it occurred. While I learned a lot in the institutional church setting, those times that I grew the most occurred outside of the church setting. It wasn't until I was at a two-day conference on the resurrection in my 40s that God finally confronted me with the historicity of the resurrection, thereby completely changing the way that I understand the cross and how I witness to others. This is despite the fact that I grew up in the church and attended Christian education from kindergarten through college. I also remember a time when I bumped into a fellow parishioner at a Starbucks where we had a most pleasant conversation about our faith. I left that encounter wondering why our church services were never so engaging. Church for me has always been about following an order of worship including a 30+ minute lecture on a Bible passage. God forbid that I raise my hand to ask a question or dispute a statement made by the pastor. I only saw this happen once in a service where a balding, older gentleman stood up after the sermon to debate what the preacher had just said. Yet there have been a few times where I have been tempted to do just that when Christ took a back seat to the minister's opinion.
So again, my apologies for the length of my response. I thought it important that you understand that my interest in this matter is not because we're dealing in what is new territory for the church or that I somehow don't respect the system that we currently have. I have often been accused in the past of not submitting to church authority, but nothing could be further from the truth. When I left my last church a few years ago, it was because I was told by its leaders that it was more important for me to do the will of the elders than for the elders to teach me how their actions placed Christ at the center of our life and practice. I'll close my thoughts here with a passage from Col 1:15-20...
_15 [Christ Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross._
1:23:00 I have to say I really appreciate the charity and graciousness with how you all are communicating. However, this format being a discussion and a presentation all in one is very difficult to follow. There are a lot of rabbit trails and side commentary. And it’s difficult to see Tom’s perspective side-by-side with your perspective. I think I’ll leave it here and wait for Tom to come on your show to discuss.
Paul defines worship in Romans 12: 1,2: Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
That is: transforming of mind! Not the Sunday performance where most people watch others 'do Christianity' with liturgical ceremony (which is *every* church assembly even if it is not formally liturgical), the highpoint of which is the ceremony of The Sermon!
The presenters are talking past Tom's point. I don't think Tom would disagree with most of what they are putting up as a critique.
How can get a copy of the powerpoint used in this video? I have family that are really into this and have shared the video but they asked if the presentation was available anywhere...
Looking forward to Tom Wadsworth on your Show. Thank you.
This is more of a reaction than a response which is why I would have suggested this show be held after first thoughtfully interacting with Tom's material whiich I assume they did then wait until you could have him on the show to interact with him.
If Tom makes the observation that latreuo is not in the description of the assembly, why are you forcing it on the assembly?
@@rossjpurdy because an argument from silence is not an explicit necessary inference
@@rossjpurdy to make Christian assembly to be wrong for having a vertical focus, how is that any different than just being a good, moral humanist? It seems like a fundamentalist mind game that strains the gnat to the point the big picture collapses on itself
@@ContemplativeSoul To force it then is an argument from silence.
@@ContemplativeSoul Tom does not argue that it is wrong, just not the primary focus of the point for gathering. Our whole life always has a vertical connection. Specific activities have specific purposes horizontally and the point of gathering is to edify one another. To lose sight of that fact is to fail to edify one another.
A half hour into it and there hasn't been any substance in there yet.
"GOD that made the world and ALL things therein,
Seeing that ‘HE IS’ LORD of Heaven and Earth,
Dwelleth 'N-O-T' in temples Made with hands;
Neither is 'Worshipped' with men's hands,
As though HE 'Needed' Anything,
Seeing HE Giveth to All Life, and Breath, and All Things."
(Acts 17:24-25)
~~~
“HEREIN is My Father ‘Glorified’;
That ‘Y-o-u’ bear MUCH FRUIT:
So Shall ‘Y-o-u’ Be MY Disciples.”
~ JESUS CHRIST ~
(St John 15:8)
~~~
“BLESSED is that servant, whom his Lord
When He comes Shall Find DOING.”
~ JESUS CHRIST ~
(St Matthew 24:46)
~~~
:)
Great job guys. Loved the slides. Very clear and concise presentation. 👏
I think you guys are gracious and you are steelmaning Toms points which i appreciate.
I am struggling to follow the logic on most of your argument though.
I think your strongest is the use of ecclesia in the Septuagint.
But i still dont think its a knockout punch.
@@MrJimMac right, even if ecclesia is used a certain way in the LXX, it doesn’t mean it’s used that way in the NT.
what's then the function of Jesus' sacrifice if a ceremony is still needed in addition to that? It's acceptable if it's just a rememberance, but to say that the ceremony functions as sacrifice, it will render Jesus' sacrifice seems like it's insufficient.
The ceremony doesn't function as another sacrifice, it's a re-presentation of the once for all sacrifice Jesus accomplished 2000 years ago.
@@FaithUnaltered….and it’s the communion (partaking in) of the body and blood once offered in that One Sacrifice (1 Corinthians 10:16-18)
@@FaithUnaltered if it's just a re-presentation, then it's supposed to be optional. Jesus never demands a specific ceremony. What Jesus said was that everytime they eat bread drink wine (which they usually do in assemblies), do it in remembrance of Him. Jesus didn't introduced anything new there, He just added new meaning to what they've always been doing.
The first hour should have been deleted.
THANK YOU FOR ALL THOSE INSIGHTS OTHERWISE UNAVAILABLE FOR GREEK OR HEBREW MINUS LISTENERS I ENJOY THE LIGHT CONVERSATIONAL TOUCH NO GRATUITOUS POLYSYLLABIC EXCESSES HERE,, NO SELF AGGRANDIZING PHD-ESE
Prostrating before icons is idolotry
Yes, the second command, "You shall not bow down to them nor worship them," is exactly idolatry
@@twinkle90343 you types tire me
Content starts at 19:01
I just want to say as a Hebrew Roots-inclined believer, I do highly appreciate the more high continuity approach y'all take and the quotes and notions mentioned from about 30mins-1hr15mins
Tom will show these people what God loves.
@@1Whipperin God loves the rejection of worshipping Him (vertically)? Yikes!
@@amieroberg5252 Where is the NT worship service in the Bible?
Thanks for the doing this, friends. I found this helpful.
On principle I would be afraid to claim to have DISCOVERED something NEW theologically AS IF for 2000 years everybody else has been wrong or unenlightened. Jesus would never let that happen. ALL THE SAME I BELIEVE IF SOMETHING IS NOT IN THE BIBLE CHUCK IT.
What did Paul say? I count this all as dung! Real Christianity is not religion and that is why it is a mistake to model it on Judaism.
I fail to see how Ps 22 equates all those activities with prostration. It is quite a reaching argument.
What is the connection of saints proving the assembly is worship as opposed to edification? Random rambling?
that said -what a great evaluation of everything else
Not impressed at all. It's easy to tear something apart when the author can't answer. Some of you approach seems like circular reasoning. Like for example how you guys use the word worship in light of what he is saying, you're not orientated to show whether he is wrong or not, you're orientated to assume he's wrong from the outset.
Well hopefully be able to get a conversation with Dr. Wadsworth set up for sometime in October. Looking forward to it.
That might all be true but you haven’t actually critiqued anything in the video. Why not show us how they are wrong?
@@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYouCourtney claims he misquoted Gupta, but Courtney seems to have misunderstood the context of what Gupta was saying and the context of what and why Wadsworth was quoting that particular section.
Also labelling Wadsworth with words that import baggage that doesn't fit, while claiming not to put him in a box.
Your clearly trying to put him into theological boxes that are defined by post reformation thinking and even maligning him with people like Stanley who wants to unhitch the OT. Ridiculous connection. This video is an example of maligning and gossip.
I'm not going to go blow by blow, but I have loads of problems with this assessment and critique of Wadsworth who has told me via email no peer review scholars have had significant issues with his dissertation.
This video is UA-cam gossip, something that seems to be all to common for Christian youtubers.
I got banned from Dr Heiser's DCW Facebook page because I called out this video as being premature and treating Wadsworth unethically and with very little respect for the sake of making a controversy before the Author has had a chance to speak.
Very unprofessional and very unethical. It's a big problem in Christian UA-cam channels.
@TheLookingGlassAU sounds like you're mad because you got banned for your BS in the DCW group and taking it out here.
Disagree with us, fine. I'm just peachy with that. Calling us gossips like you're St. Paul will get you kicked outta here too. Make a claim, show the evidence or shut up and cry somewhere else. It's really that simple. We have Wadsworth coming on to discuss and NOT ONCE has he said we stated anything in a sinful way against him.
~Tyler
@TheLookingGlassAU that's not what happened on the Facebook group. Why would you lie about this?
❤
I admire your patience in digging into this. I had come across one of his videos recently, but felt too much like he was trying to gaslight his listeners, it just seemed so preposterous. The points he does try to admit would have more validity if they were more nuanced and everything wasn't pushed to have an exaggerated meaning- and out of context too. If he's CoC it makes sense because their exegesis is notorious for this
Maybe make a condensed edit on this .I watched 30 minutes so far of nothingness and am out of here.
You waste our time telling us what your structure is going to be, what you are going to address, etc. How about just getting into those topics without wasted words all around the issue?
@@hypoknoxious yes!! 45 min in and still talking about what they're going to address later.
Like...I can't listen anymore...right? Like you people do a good job... like making a good scripture salad, like..right?
Get on with it man. You have spent 30 minutes rambling all around the issue and we have other things to do in life besides listening to your preamble.
This woman can hardly speak English with "like", "like".
DO NOT CONFUSE FORM FOR SUBSTANCE SHE HAS BEEN UTTERLY PROFOUND