Yeah, I think he's the thinker I align myself with the most and since I follow him most other intellectuals just seem to have so many holes in their stories
HERE'S ANOTHER CLUE.......HE'S SAID NUMEROUS TIMES THAT HUMANS OPERATE ON A FRACTION OF A WATT........MAYBE A FLEA DOES, NOT SURE I'D HAVE TO LOOK THAT ONE UP, IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT HUMANS OPEERATE ON APROX A HUNDRED WATTS PER HOUR, NOT A FRACTION OF A WATT PER DAY OR WHATEVER HE'S REPATED OVER AND OVER.....GET REAL
Great to listen to this again. There are a range if people to whom I listen, each of whom has a piece of the jigsaw, and Nate understands the energy / finance complex better than anyone else. Great interview Rachel.
Amazing talk, I love these !! I've opened my eyes since a couple of years, I used to feel extremely depressed by it all, but I've come to accept a fundamental change in our behavior will have to happen, if it isn't already too late with all the feedback loops being triggered currently.
Only death will change modern civilization. All the messages and warning in the world will not change the way we live. I've just come to accept that only mass death of the rich will change things, which means it's going to get really bad. I'm 50 and even if my health doesn't fail me, I'm not sure I'll make it to old age the way things are going.
Everytime I listen to you nate, speak a whole load of sense! I cry 😢 with joy I think "Wow all stuff I've been thinking knowing and finally pieced together all by my wee self for about 2 decades is Truth / Scientific fact hidden in its entirety." All validation I'm Not crazy🙃 just an actual human being. Doing the act of being! Thankyou for you.💜
This interview basically lays it all out. I’ve shared this episode with many people. I feel like we need an even more distilled version of this, maybe shortened to less than 30 mins, in order to make it even more digestible for the masses. Just trying to find ways to get people like my grandma to understand the situation.
So brilliant, once again. I have been following Nate Hagens work for some time, and I am grateful for this very fine interview. I believe that this interview contains the key insights about how we can actually find a path forward for life to continue on planet earth, which I think would be a wonderful thing. I love the plethora of species and the diversity that might continue and evolve for many thousands of years, including our own species. I hope we find this path forward, which is not the well-trod, wide scorched path. The path forward is green and gentle and empathetic and embraces letting go
got another bigger picture so different than of all ai heard in this podcast ...thankyou to you both... it's so educational for an ordinary me...thankyou thañkyous
War and weapons production must have far greater negative impact on the planet than people. We should decrease consumption of everything, we don't need to fill our homes with unnecessary things, we should use things not to show how rich we are but for their function and use everything till it stop's working. New models of everything shouldn't be marketed, because enough profit can be made by just supplying necessities to the masses. Wealth is not riches, riches are our planet life, which is the provider of all riches. There should be honest regulators, their responsible for the irresponsible corruption and materialism, corrupt bankers, financiers, politicians, corporations, media and blind consumers
@@isidoreaerys8745 thats very interesting prospect to think how it would change global dynamic if oil wasnt as cheap or abundantly available... it is mere 100 years oil fueled armies existed. Curiously communication likely would stay high but moving things would be slower. During WW1 era this was flipped.
Fantastic talk. I like the nutshell of 100 energy slaves per working person on the planet. Those are the kinds of statistics we need everyone to understand about fossil energy in order to prepare ourselves mentally.
Nate is an awesome scientist and I watch his channel very often. My only objection is that if the collapse starts, it will be from a big panic in the economy and it will be so big that we won't recover again. We'll die sooner from starvation and fighting each other before the extreme heat kills us.
..We’re facing two collapses, one of civilization and the other the collapse of the Earth’s biosphere. And with that the loss of human habitat. What Nate doesn’t discuss much is the fact that we’re deep into overshoot, a result of our technological extractive prowess and of globalization that now has multinational corporations accountable to no one pillaging the living world at an alarming-omnicidal pace. So we’re now causing by far the fastest extinction event in the Earth’s history and the Earth’s living systems are collapsing in tandem with human population growth and consumption. The Earth/nature, just doesn’t have the carrying capacity for eight billion self absorbed humans using their own life sustaining habitat as a bottomless larder and toilet. And it’s not going to wait around for us to wise up. Crop yields are diminishing and between the heatwaves, firestorms, superstorms and biblical flooding almost daily now, we humans are losing habitat fast. So I’ll tie in to your prediction with my belief that the collapse of technological civilization will be triggered when these extreme weather events already happening become just slightly more severe than they already are. And “Humankind’s greatest shortcoming is our inability to grasp the exponential function.”- Albert Bartlett It won’t be long.
@@Antuan2911 Get yourself out into the country, rural high ground where it still rains. And look into regenerative agriculture if your game to hang around and fight for life on Earth. The community of homo sapien that just might carry our species into the future is already hard at ecosystem restoration and water sequestration. And the results, the abundance of life that flourishes when it’s given half a chance, will make your soul rejoice. Go home to the living world we never should have left, join us!
Not 2.4 degrees C - Dr James Hansen says 4 degrees C at 2100 and 10 degrees C at equilibrium climate sensitivity sometime in the future..... (Global Warming in the Pipeline - Hansen et al, 2023) (I wrote this post 1 year after you posted this interview). Hansen's (et al) estimate doesn't include a few serious positive feedbacks (increasing water vapor and reducing albedo) or the increasing amounts of GWG's being added to the atmosphere every year. Would you interview Professor Hansen re: his latest report? So pleased to encounter Mr. Hagens for the first time!!!
It is the blunt side effect of the END OF THE FRONTIER, 1492-Colonial empires , development of corporate join stock companies ( endless growth model ), fossil fuel development and human breeders Did a bloom that can not be sustained. The whiskey bottle is empty, we now face the hang over as we descend into the abbess of horror. Glad I am childless and old .
Pause for a few minutes and listen to the song “This Island Earth” written by Paul Cooper and performed by either his group The Nylons or by Jonathan Edwards on your music service. Re Nate’s often referenced need to shift our goals from those that increase GDP to those that have soul-nourishing value: I love the lines “If you’re lookin’ for a miracle open your eyes, There was one this morning just about sunrise…” Personal context-I first heard this song done by Edwards on the album The Vineyard Sound Vol.1. Great CD. The play on words is that the Vineyard Sound is the body of water that separates the island of Martha’s Vineyard, which I know from family vacations spent there, from Cape Cod, MA. Martha’s Vineyard is colloquially known simply as The Vineyard so…you get the idea. Enjoy.
I have a friend who works on an oil rig in the Persian Gulf. He works for 28 days and then comes home for 28 days. Oil runs the world. It will be painful to disconnect.
You should try to talk to Daniel Schmactenberger. He's a polymath that's fluent in the whole spectrum of existential risk, from resource depletion to geopolitical conflict, and is part of a project called the Consilience Project aimed at catalyzing a cultural renaissance towards better public coordination to weather through the 21st century's challenges. He was recently on Nate Hagen's podcast as well
I hate neoliberal economics. I am a lay believer in MMT, modern monetary theory. At the 42 min mark Nate is talking about the debt problem. In MMt the solution is to stop paying interest on the debt. Or to pay it with newly created money and stop selling bonds. This will flood the economy with cash, but it is better than a default. OTOH, MMT says that rea resources and labor are what matters, money matters little. So, peak oil is aa huge real problem that money can't solve for long. We are doomed, there is no soft landing for the climate crisis. If Nate is right, then there is no hope that humans will act before it is too late.
Some Peak Oil stats: Conventional oil (energy return on investment, EROI ~ 50-35:1) peaked in 2005 triggering the Great Recession. Since then growth in oil production has come from fracking Tight oil (EROI ~5:1), unprofitable, financed by 0% Fed Rate debt. Once the Permian peaks (~2025 as per Art Berman, 2030 as per eia) perhaps a bigger recession until they move on to Arctic oil (even lower EROI due to harsh conditions) if accessible given thawing due to climate change.
Yield on Fractional Drilling operations enters exponential decay after just 2 years! The only way they are financing new ventures is basically a Ponzi scheme.
11:50 The 2.4C is if and only if all countries stick to their NDCs. None are and none have since Paris or Glasgow. We're 7.5yrs on from Paris and emissions are still breaking records. 2.4c will be passed in the second half of this century at current rates.
Was already almost Zero carbon footprint, living austerely off grid just a kilometer away from a volcano in the old country. Suddenly am in NYC & feeling like a drone…waiting for Extinction & wishing the Catholic Church wasn’t too keen on colonialism ,love, & urging folks to Multiply And the US wasn’t such a glutton for War & unmitigated economic growth.
E M **.. . Mebbe my fren ... no matter how nice the city a farm is still best place to be in times of trouble/food insecurity . You are most welcome to my neck of the woods : Balete, Batangas ... Thanks.
We all purchased the car. We of course are going to use it. If the car is ev power by solar it’s more efficient. This means no fossil fuel is used for operating. Most Americans use two barrels of oil per week or 100 barrels per year roughly. The demand for that oil is reduced. If there are only electric vehicles?
Another great episode rach. Have you done any interviews regarding pesticide use? Any thoughts on Sri Lanka and how they should have transitioned to organic? I'm catching up on all your work so if you've posted it I will soon find it...
Industry uses cap and trade, not flat taxes. To entertain the idea of flat taxes on resources is seriously flawed and represents "blue pilled" subservience to the current order that got us here. Equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness translates more clearly to rationed resources which individuals may then trade. Why should small farmers find it economically ruinous to run a tractor or use their pickup to get supplies from town, while taxes on energy and resources hardly make a dent in the budgets of jet setter urban elites. There are problems with some technologies and products that cannot be addressed with taxation. Things like DDT, unregulated fishing;/hunting, unregulated hydro and damning of water ways, unregulated aeronautics, smoke stack and drain pipe emissions, radium dial watches, shoe store x-ray machines, unregulated use of the radio spectrum, speeding, wakes in no wake zones, draining wetlands, carbureted, airbag less, seat beltless vehicles, red dye #2, trans fats, mercury and lead and asbestos in house hold products, original formula Coke, noise ordinances, trespassing, littering, dumping black tanks in inland water ways, unregulated drilling, unregulated building construction, lawn darts, high voc household items, paints, and adhesives, high BPAs in food packaging, Dioxins in electrical gear, Styrofoam burger clam shells, pull tab cans, plastic straws, corked bats, deflated footballs, smoking on airplanes, running with scissors, etc. Some things need to be banned entirely,. The market mechanism itself (taxes aimed at marginal adjustment to demand) is not right tool for the job. While many will be pushed into extreme hardship and privation by diminishing energy availability and increasing taxation to promote its conservation, how can continued energy intensive, grossly conspicuous consumption continue unabated. "Let them eat cake" has morphed into the "let them eat bugs." Yellow vests and truck convoys are merely the pregame warm up.. While on the Titanic, passengers are segmented from first class to steerage. Once on life boats, anyone presuming to claim more than a fair share of rations may not earn the good will of their fellow survivors. Similarly, once a life boat has reached capacity, swimmers represent a threat to capsize the entire life boat. No everyone can be saved. .And not every soul who secures an early seat on a lifeboat will be able to keep it, when swimmers arrive who posses valuable skills in seamanship, navigation, fishing, med care, and survival. The great carbon pulse put Darwin in the back seat. He's about to take the wheel once again.
I guess where I’m saying is that Ev will have an impact. Maybe transportation is 60% of oil use. If it does nothing else it will buy time. Also oil will be depleted by 2050 while growing the economy growing at a constant rate.
he uses 100billion barrels per oil per day... I thought it is 100million barrels per day? as some known reserves are in 40-50billion barrels (russia). Other thing... compressed algae is interesting take... sort of liquid diamonds then(shorter compression time)... perhaps adjusting to more moderate usage and human made "farming" is possible in long future. Im not sure how food salt production works but I understood humans found way to make it cheap in mass scale when it was very expensive in 1500s, perhaps similar development happens in synthetic oils when that is absolutely needed.
IPCC says we're headed closer to +3 C by 2100, not just +2.4 C. IPCC ignore tipping points, lags by 10 years, etc though, so maybe +4 C remains more realsitic.
Minimalism can save the planet but also a fullstop to wars,occupations, invasions.Increasing prices of things would only spread corruption and again the rich would enjoy all that the rest can't. Things need to cost less, lower standard so their cheap.
Reversing population growth is another one of those things that has to happen.lockstep with the rest of the great changes. It’s like a junkie who’s taken themself to the edge of death. Change on all fronts is no longer an option to ignore.
"How do we afford a universal basic income?" Print the money. Modern monetary theory. Inflation occurs when there is too much demand in the economy but not enough supply. So long as supply and demand stay near relative equilibrium, we won't need to worry about inflation. Taxes aren't needed to pay for things, taxes will be needed only to manage the money supply and to manage demand relative to supply. So, if inflation starts becoming a problem, increase taxes to reduce demand relative to supply, thus putting downward pressure on prices.
This is (probably) feasible in the USA, which prints the global reserve currency. Any other and smaller country CANNOT do it - their currency exchange rates are hostage to the whims of international traders, and printing more local currency is one of the "danger signals" which may make those traders nervous (or speculative).
@@davidbarry6900 that's why there needs to be a global reserve currency that isn't tied to a national economy. I would say there also needs to not be speculative currency trading.
@@davidbarry6900 Petrodollar system will probably end this decade; USD will not be the reserve currency, and blockchain technology will replace the SWIFT system. I'm skeptical about MMT as the Federal Reserve has already shown it is unwilling to raise interest rates and Congress is unwilling to raise taxes.
@@Who-vt9oh Agreed. Given the topic a "new" reserve currency should perhaps be based on globally available energy (broadly defined) divided on a pro rata basis by country. We could adapt for instance something like the IMF's Special Drawing Rights accounting system to be the basis for a new reserve currency. The economist Yanis Varoufakis also has a similar idea in which he dubbed the hypothetical currency Cosmos.
@@cate1463 blockchain technology is horrifically energy intensive and is literally the purest distillation of the pathologies that pervade capitalism. Bad idea
Evolution or extinction? Are we able to learn to live in harmony with each other, nature and technology including AI? Sustainability not profitability. Mindfulness and self love, respect not exploitation. Our species faces a major die off, the population is passing the peak, passing a tipping point where our population goes from exponential growth to a transition to a new sustainable relationship with the ecosystem that has sustained us up until now. That downward curve can be as steep as a cliff which falls to zero, extinction, or it can begin steeply and recover as it returns to historic levels of sustainability, pre-technology levels such as pre-Columbian America. This could lead to a selection pressure that would produce a new species of hominid, speciation. The curve could be more gentle and could include technological solutions that would level off at a population that could both live more harmoniously with nature and each other and incorporate technology that would represent an evolution into a new species of technologically enhanced humanity, cyborgs. Taking life to other planets, terraforming and evolving new species of humans who could survive other planetary ecologies is another path that will require technologies including genetic engineering to reach for the stars. Managing these changes in a moral and humane way brings hope to a future that appears very scary from our selfish and ethnocentric perspectives. Keep up the good work or as John Perkins says "Dream True" instead of living like the hero of his book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman." Be blessed, you are a blessing. Aboriginal cultures have much to teach us.
The albedo/atmosphere make the Earth cooler not warmer. Yes or no? If no pls ‘splain. The GHGs must absorb “extra” energy upwelling from the surface radiating as a black body. The kinetic energy heat transfer processes in the contiguous atmospheric molecules make BB impossible as also demonstrated by experiment. Agree or disagree? If disagree pls ‘splain. If both or either of these points is correct the greenhouse effect is not. No greenhouse effect, no GHG warming, no man/CO2 driven global warming or climate change. Version 2.0 120621
Hahahaha! You saved 1 letter spelling explain as ‘splain! Now if this type of “efficiency” is how you conduct the rest of your intellectual enquiring I think I’ll stick with the big picture scientists.
@@mtn1793 A PhD is no guarantee the holder can't be wrong/mistaken/covering up errors. The consensus has been wrong in the past. And everyone knows you do what the boss wants done and say what the boss wants said. And so far your scientific based rebuttal to my points is a big fat ZERO!!!
One distinctly woefully experience The moment when my mother abused bramhin We call Shashan Bramahan Without rituals I went behind to catch u .a gave him all the money I had and begged forgiveness on behalf of my father for the services that came 🙏.
I cant believe there was not one word talked about population reduction . And also no mention of climatechange and the ramifications for the future of that . With these missing this whole interview became completely inauthentic
friend - a) it's hard to condense the entire story into 5-6 hours let alone one hour. Look up my Earth Day talk 'Earth and Humanity: Myth and Reality' and you'll see plenty on climate/population b) I do discuss the importance of climate to me - and to all of us near end of this interview c) my view is we have to look at the core drivers of our problems not just the symptoms. One has to assume most people -(at least most of those listening to a podcast called Planet Critical) are already well aware of climate change and overshoot issues). The core drivers are: aggregate human behavior, massive energy surplus, an economic system using the wrong prices for everything. Climate/population are downstream effects, not causes of those. The answers lie in the intersection of those 3 domains. In my humble opinion. cheers
Thanks for saving me the time of listening to the whole thing. Without being clear that human overpopulation is the base problem underlying climate change and all the other unfolding catastrophes, effort is misdirected.
@@thegreatsimplification Check out William Rees, who coined the concept of "ecological footprint". In his opinion, which makes sense to me, human population overgrowth is the core driver, and climate change is a symptom (there are several other symptoms as well. He has many talks on UA-cam.)
@@buddyneher9359 he explained that what he calls the carbon pulse is the cause of explosion of the population and consumption, and that this will end, in the near future, he’s a level beyond just stating that overpopulation is the big /only problem. You might better really listen and educate yourself more. Kind regards
The answer is NOT using considerably less energy consumption! The answer is modular molten salt reactors for the foreseeable future of grid energy. As fossil fuels run-out, nuclear energy can be used to create all liquid and gas transportation needs in the foreseeable future.
Lots of theoretical hand wringers with very few solutions. The world understands we must make changes but we don't have a reason yet to cancel the world as so many think we can and should. That's suicide, and helps nothing. I like some ideas but there's a lot that is debatable. Humanity can only take so much drastic change and we have had our share in the past 25 years...
There is a limit to the carrying capacity of the Earth for humanity while maintaining a healthy worldwide environment. If managed intelligently, it is a huge number, but still finite. The answer is NOT colonization of other planets which are naturally incompatible with life in general, and greatly so for Earth bound life in particular. The answer is spin gravity habitats from island sized O'Neal cylinders to continent sized McKendree cylinders. Initially, these spin gravity habitats would form a planetary Dyson swarm around the Earth sourced from mining and manufacturing on the Moon. Eventually, a full scale Dyson swarm around the Sun using future starlifting technology to mine the Sun for heavy elements to build the solar Dyson swarm with, and to construct colonization fleets for appropriate nearby stars. This has the the additional benefit of preventing the Sun from becoming a red giant, extending its life at least several trillions of years.
I agree with most of what he says, but he is deficient in his knowledge of basic biology, ignorance of the negative impacts of agriculture, and how to dramatically improve the world environment in the future.
Agriculture has been the foundation of civilizations for thousands of years, but the erosion of soil by wind and rain has slowly destroyed those civilizations in the past, much faster after the industrialization of agriculture. The answer is regenerative agriculture.
I agree we can not continue to use fossil fuels for much longer as we will obviously run-out. Liquid fuels are essential for light and personal transportation for the foreseeable future. The answer is modular molten salt reactors.
The climate crisis is a new scam to transfer wealth to the elites from the rest of us through fear mongering. The answer is to quit consuming the propaganda, and educate yourself on what is really known about historical and anthropogenic climate. Put your resources into promoting regenerative agriculture and modular molten salt reactors! The Earth and future generations will thank you for it!!!
Nate Hagens is a nice guy and I agree with him we need social and economical change. Where he is wrong and won't ever probably admit it because it would put in jeopardy everything he has been working on for the past 20 years is energy. The Keystone to his whole argument and everything he bases all he beliefs and conclusions on is that energy is going to become harder to get and more expensive. He is right when it comes to fossil fuels and renewable like solar, wind and hydro electric. What he completely ignores is Thorium nuclear energy. One piece of thorium the size of a walnut holds enough energy that can be extracted to meet all the energy needs of one person for their entire lifetime. That is all their transpiration, heating, cooling and electrical needs. The United States government back in the 1950's stockpiled enough thorium and buried it in Nevada. There is enough thorium there to meet all the energy needs of everyone in the United States for the next 50 years.
@@PlanetCritical Sorensen and his aids might be willing to talk about it. The issue with FLiBe (used as the molten salt to hold the thorium and uranium, transferring heat out of the reactor) is that the neutrons degrade the Lithium 7 which creates hydrogen in the form of deuterium which mixes with the fluoride salt to create hydrofluoric acid, which is incredibly toxic, to the point where if it gets on your skin, it can eat down to, into, and through your bones. Basically, yes, the chemistry and energy density is there, but there are some seriously nasty handling issues that engineering would need to solve. Another alternative is the fusion guys at MIT may have actually figured out how to get high enough magnetic fields to make fusion a reality. You can look up the SPARC fusion reactor to see the direction they are heading. There are also people making startups around their strategy who might love to talk about it. The strategy uses REBCO tape, a high temperature super conductor that wasn’t feasible to manufacture reliably until recently. And of course, there’s also the argument of cause and effect, that perhaps if the energy becomes available, we’d still expand to fill up and ultimately consume the energy, so even these technological advance would only kick the can further down the road.
Christianity is an interesting belief that most people don't study deeply enough to find out what is really claims. It speaks of a creation that occurred a bit more than 6,000 years ago. It speaks about everything winding down. It wouldn't require you to make up a fake religion of your own.
political government is separation from God's leadership, which provides substantive choice needed for organizing peoples and nations into God's free will kingdom
political government requiring choice replaces focus on God's nature choice; end political government and start God's free will kingdom central authority
Nate Hagens pretty much nails everything. I can't believe this is the first time I've listened to him. Amazing interview. Thank you.
Thank you for listening!
Then you really must investigate him more.. His reality 101 course is pretty interesting.
hopium addicts make good critics but bad leaders
He's got a newish podcast that is quite good. All of his talks for the past 10+ years are on YT and well worth the time.
Yeah, I think he's the thinker I align myself with the most and since I follow him most other intellectuals just seem to have so many holes in their stories
Nate Hagens. One of this era's thought leaders. He is just as eloquent to talk to in person.
Likewise, Simon!
HE CAN'T EVEN MULTIPLY............GET A CLUE MR. SIMP....
HERE'S ANOTHER CLUE.......HE'S SAID NUMEROUS TIMES THAT HUMANS OPERATE ON A FRACTION OF A WATT........MAYBE A FLEA DOES, NOT SURE I'D HAVE TO LOOK THAT ONE UP, IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT HUMANS OPEERATE ON APROX A HUNDRED WATTS PER HOUR, NOT A FRACTION OF A WATT PER DAY OR WHATEVER HE'S REPATED OVER AND OVER.....GET REAL
Great to listen to this again. There are a range if people to whom I listen, each of whom has a piece of the jigsaw, and Nate understands the energy / finance complex better than anyone else. Great interview Rachel.
Thanks for bringing Nate to your audience Rachel. His big picture/systems thinking needs to be heard by as many people as possible.
Nate is a pragmatic voice in this complex issue. I hope the world can listen and implement the post growth path before it's too late.
I couldn't stand it, I have to watch this again!
@@TennesseeJed I did too!!!
Amazing talk, I love these !! I've opened my eyes since a couple of years, I used to feel extremely depressed by it all, but I've come to accept a fundamental change in our behavior will have to happen, if it isn't already too late with all the feedback loops being triggered currently.
Thank you for listening!
Only death will change modern civilization. All the messages and warning in the world will not change the way we live. I've just come to accept that only mass death of the rich will change things, which means it's going to get really bad. I'm 50 and even if my health doesn't fail me, I'm not sure I'll make it to old age the way things are going.
@@domitron unfortunate reality
Mad Max is on the horizon! We are F----D! Thank you Nate for your genius analogy and glimmer of hope. May the forces of nature be with you!
Everytime I listen to you nate, speak a whole load of sense! I cry 😢 with joy I think
"Wow all stuff I've been thinking knowing and finally pieced together
all by my wee self for about 2 decades is Truth / Scientific fact hidden in its entirety."
All validation I'm Not crazy🙃 just an actual human being.
Doing the act of being!
Thankyou for you.💜
This interview basically lays it all out. I’ve shared this episode with many people. I feel like we need an even more distilled version of this, maybe shortened to less than 30 mins, in order to make it even more digestible for the masses. Just trying to find ways to get people like my grandma to understand the situation.
I will listen to this podcast many times and share it widely!!! One of the best I have ever heard...and one of the most important.
So brilliant, once again.
I have been following Nate Hagens work for some time, and I am grateful for this very fine interview.
I believe that this interview contains the key insights about how we can actually find a path forward for life to continue on planet earth, which I think would be a wonderful thing.
I love the plethora of species and the diversity that might continue and evolve for many thousands of years, including our own species.
I hope we find this path forward, which is not the well-trod, wide scorched path. The path forward is green and gentle and empathetic and embraces letting go
Thank you kindly for listening!
Just replying for the algorithm. Great discussion.
Ditto. Obligatory comment.
Man I wish I could discuss this with my wife. But I can’t.
got another bigger picture so different than of all ai heard in this podcast
...thankyou to you both... it's so educational for an ordinary me...thankyou thañkyous
Good interview. A lot to study and ponder.
Thank you
War and weapons production must have far greater negative impact on the planet than people. We should decrease consumption of everything, we don't need to fill our homes with unnecessary things, we should use things not to show how rich we are but for their function and use everything till it stop's working. New models of everything shouldn't be marketed, because enough profit can be made by just supplying necessities to the masses. Wealth is not riches, riches are our planet life, which is the provider of all riches. There should be honest regulators, their responsible for the irresponsible corruption and materialism, corrupt bankers, financiers, politicians, corporations, media and blind consumers
The us armed forces is the largest consumer of fossil fuels on earth.
@@isidoreaerys8745 thats very interesting prospect to think how it would change global dynamic if oil wasnt as cheap or abundantly available... it is mere 100 years oil fueled armies existed. Curiously communication likely would stay high but moving things would be slower. During WW1 era this was flipped.
Fantastic talk. I like the nutshell of 100 energy slaves per working person on the planet. Those are the kinds of statistics we need everyone to understand about fossil energy in order to prepare ourselves mentally.
He’s peeled away quite a few layers of the onion.
Nate is the best
Keep up the good works best podcasts so far not about drama but the state of world has we know it!
Nate is an awesome scientist and I watch his channel very often.
My only objection is that if the collapse starts, it will be from a big panic
in the economy and it will be so big that we won't recover again.
We'll die sooner from starvation and fighting each other
before the extreme heat kills us.
..We’re facing two collapses, one of civilization and the other the collapse of the Earth’s biosphere.
And with that the loss of human habitat.
What Nate doesn’t discuss much is the fact that we’re deep into overshoot, a result of our technological extractive prowess and of globalization that now has multinational corporations accountable to no one pillaging the living world at an alarming-omnicidal pace. So we’re now causing by far the fastest extinction event in the Earth’s history and the Earth’s living systems are collapsing in tandem with human population growth and consumption.
The Earth/nature, just doesn’t have the carrying capacity for eight billion self absorbed humans using their own life sustaining habitat as a bottomless larder and toilet. And it’s not going to wait around for us to wise up.
Crop yields are diminishing and between the heatwaves, firestorms, superstorms and biblical flooding almost daily now, we humans are losing habitat fast.
So I’ll tie in to your prediction with my belief that the collapse of technological civilization will be triggered when these extreme weather events already happening become just slightly more severe than they already are.
And “Humankind’s greatest shortcoming is our inability to grasp the exponential function.”- Albert Bartlett
It won’t be long.
@@mischevious
I agree with you.
@@Antuan2911 Get yourself out into the country, rural high ground where it still rains. And look into regenerative agriculture if your game to hang around and fight for life on Earth. The community of homo sapien that just might carry our species into the future is already hard at ecosystem restoration and water sequestration.
And the results, the abundance of life that flourishes when it’s given half a chance, will make your soul rejoice. Go home to the living world we never should have left, join us!
@@mischevious
I'll try, I do my best...
Thanks!
It’s not a matter of “if the collapse starts”. The collapse is ongoing and will accelerate
Not 2.4 degrees C - Dr James Hansen says 4 degrees C at 2100 and 10 degrees C at equilibrium climate sensitivity sometime in the future..... (Global Warming in the Pipeline - Hansen et al, 2023) (I wrote this post 1 year after you posted this interview). Hansen's (et al) estimate doesn't include a few serious positive feedbacks (increasing water vapor and reducing albedo) or the increasing amounts of GWG's being added to the atmosphere every year. Would you interview Professor Hansen re: his latest report? So pleased to encounter Mr. Hagens for the first time!!!
One aspect not discussed is the resource wars that we have experienced in MENA. More violent and frequent.
And increasingly so! Keep an eye on China too as they muscle in on resource-rich lands.
It is the blunt side effect of the END OF THE FRONTIER, 1492-Colonial empires , development of corporate join stock companies ( endless growth model ), fossil fuel development and human breeders
Did a bloom that can not be sustained. The whiskey bottle is empty, we now face the hang over as we descend into the abbess of horror. Glad I am childless and old .
Incroyable ! I feel I'm listening to a clone of Jean-Marc Jancovici !! 😲
Glad you met at last.👍
Jancovici is nates French brother❤😂 30:34
Thank you!!!
Pause for a few minutes and listen to the song “This Island Earth” written by Paul Cooper and performed by either his group The Nylons or by Jonathan Edwards on your music service. Re Nate’s often referenced need to shift our goals from those that increase GDP to those that have soul-nourishing value: I love the lines “If you’re lookin’ for a miracle open your eyes, There was one this morning just about sunrise…” Personal context-I first heard this song done by Edwards on the album The Vineyard Sound Vol.1. Great CD. The play on words is that the Vineyard Sound is the body of water that separates the island of Martha’s Vineyard, which I know from family vacations spent there, from Cape Cod, MA. Martha’s Vineyard is colloquially known simply as The Vineyard so…you get the idea. Enjoy.
I have a friend who works on an oil rig in the Persian Gulf. He works for 28 days and then comes home for 28 days. Oil runs the world. It will be painful to disconnect.
You should try to talk to Daniel Schmactenberger. He's a polymath that's fluent in the whole spectrum of existential risk, from resource depletion to geopolitical conflict, and is part of a project called the Consilience Project aimed at catalyzing a cultural renaissance towards better public coordination to weather through the 21st century's challenges. He was recently on Nate Hagen's podcast as well
He's on my list!
This one was amazing.
My two favourite system problem podcasts discussing with eachother!:-)
I hate neoliberal economics. I am a lay believer in MMT, modern monetary theory. At the 42 min mark Nate is talking about the debt problem. In MMt the solution is to stop paying interest on the debt. Or to pay it with newly created money and stop selling bonds. This will flood the economy with cash, but it is better than a default. OTOH, MMT says that rea resources and labor are what matters, money matters little. So, peak oil is aa huge real problem that money can't solve for long. We are doomed, there is no soft landing for the climate crisis. If Nate is right, then there is no hope that humans will act before it is too late.
Some Peak Oil stats: Conventional oil (energy return on investment, EROI ~ 50-35:1) peaked in 2005 triggering the Great Recession. Since then growth in oil production has come from fracking Tight oil (EROI ~5:1), unprofitable, financed by 0% Fed Rate debt. Once the Permian peaks (~2025 as per Art Berman, 2030 as per eia) perhaps a bigger recession until they move on to Arctic oil (even lower EROI due to harsh conditions) if accessible given thawing due to climate change.
Yield on Fractional Drilling operations enters exponential decay after just 2 years!
The only way they are financing new ventures is basically a Ponzi scheme.
11:50 The 2.4C is if and only if all countries stick to their NDCs. None are and none have since Paris or Glasgow. We're 7.5yrs on from Paris and emissions are still breaking records. 2.4c will be passed in the second half of this century at current rates.
Great talk
Save Our Planet
Was already almost Zero carbon footprint, living austerely off grid just a kilometer away from a volcano in the old country. Suddenly am in NYC & feeling like a drone…waiting for Extinction & wishing the Catholic Church wasn’t too keen on colonialism ,love, & urging folks to Multiply And the US wasn’t such a glutton for War & unmitigated economic growth.
Can you go back?
E M **.. . Mebbe my fren ... no matter how nice the city a farm is still best place to be in times of trouble/food insecurity . You are most welcome to my neck of the woods : Balete, Batangas ... Thanks.
We all purchased the car. We of course are going to use it. If the car is ev power by solar it’s more efficient. This means no fossil fuel is used for operating. Most Americans use two barrels of oil per week or 100 barrels per year roughly. The demand for that oil is reduced. If there are only electric vehicles?
Another great episode rach. Have you done any interviews regarding pesticide use? Any thoughts on Sri Lanka and how they should have transitioned to organic? I'm catching up on all your work so if you've posted it I will soon find it...
Money is pretty much a proxy for energy.
Industry uses cap and trade, not flat taxes. To entertain the idea of flat taxes on resources is seriously flawed and represents "blue pilled" subservience to the current order that got us here. Equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness translates more clearly to rationed resources which individuals may then trade. Why should small farmers find it economically ruinous to run a tractor or use their pickup to get supplies from town, while taxes on energy and resources hardly make a dent in the budgets of jet setter urban elites.
There are problems with some technologies and products that cannot be addressed with taxation. Things like DDT, unregulated fishing;/hunting, unregulated hydro and damning of water ways, unregulated aeronautics, smoke stack and drain pipe emissions, radium dial watches, shoe store x-ray machines, unregulated use of the radio spectrum, speeding, wakes in no wake zones, draining wetlands, carbureted, airbag less, seat beltless vehicles, red dye #2, trans fats, mercury and lead and asbestos in house hold products, original formula Coke, noise ordinances, trespassing, littering, dumping black tanks in inland water ways, unregulated drilling, unregulated building construction, lawn darts, high voc household items, paints, and adhesives, high BPAs in food packaging, Dioxins in electrical gear, Styrofoam burger clam shells, pull tab cans, plastic straws, corked bats, deflated footballs, smoking on airplanes, running with scissors, etc. Some things need to be banned entirely,. The market mechanism itself (taxes aimed at marginal adjustment to demand) is not right tool for the job.
While many will be pushed into extreme hardship and privation by diminishing energy availability and increasing taxation to promote its conservation, how can continued energy intensive, grossly conspicuous consumption continue unabated. "Let them eat cake" has morphed into the "let them eat bugs." Yellow vests and truck convoys are merely the pregame warm up.. While on the Titanic, passengers are segmented from first class to steerage. Once on life boats, anyone presuming to claim more than a fair share of rations may not earn the good will of their fellow survivors. Similarly, once a life boat has reached capacity, swimmers represent a threat to capsize the entire life boat. No everyone can be saved. .And not every soul who secures an early seat on a lifeboat will be able to keep it, when swimmers arrive who posses valuable skills in seamanship, navigation, fishing, med care, and survival. The great carbon pulse put Darwin in the back seat. He's about to take the wheel once again.
I guess where I’m saying is that Ev will have an impact. Maybe transportation is 60% of oil use. If it does nothing else it will buy time.
Also oil will be depleted by 2050 while growing the economy growing at a constant rate.
he uses 100billion barrels per oil per day... I thought it is 100million barrels per day? as some known reserves are in 40-50billion barrels (russia).
Other thing... compressed algae is interesting take... sort of liquid diamonds then(shorter compression time)... perhaps adjusting to more moderate usage and human made "farming" is possible in long future. Im not sure how food salt production works but I understood humans found way to make it cheap in mass scale when it was very expensive in 1500s, perhaps similar development happens in synthetic oils when that is absolutely needed.
IPCC says we're headed closer to +3 C by 2100, not just +2.4 C. IPCC ignore tipping points, lags by 10 years, etc though, so maybe +4 C remains more realsitic.
In what sense do you use "tipping point"?
we live in a capitalistic economy- we have to use the tool of TAXES to shape this economy to be sustainable and fair. there is no other way!!!
Minimalism can save the planet but also a fullstop to wars,occupations, invasions.Increasing prices of things would only spread corruption and again the rich would enjoy all that the rest can't. Things need to cost less, lower standard so their cheap.
Reversing population growth is another one of those things that has to happen.lockstep with the rest of the great changes. It’s like a junkie who’s taken themself to the edge of death. Change on all fronts is no longer an option to ignore.
"How do we afford a universal basic income?" Print the money. Modern monetary theory. Inflation occurs when there is too much demand in the economy but not enough supply. So long as supply and demand stay near relative equilibrium, we won't need to worry about inflation. Taxes aren't needed to pay for things, taxes will be needed only to manage the money supply and to manage demand relative to supply. So, if inflation starts becoming a problem, increase taxes to reduce demand relative to supply, thus putting downward pressure on prices.
This is (probably) feasible in the USA, which prints the global reserve currency. Any other and smaller country CANNOT do it - their currency exchange rates are hostage to the whims of international traders, and printing more local currency is one of the "danger signals" which may make those traders nervous (or speculative).
@@davidbarry6900 that's why there needs to be a global reserve currency that isn't tied to a national economy. I would say there also needs to not be speculative currency trading.
@@davidbarry6900 Petrodollar system will probably end this decade; USD will not be the reserve currency, and blockchain technology will replace the SWIFT system. I'm skeptical about MMT as the Federal Reserve has already shown it is unwilling to raise interest rates and Congress is unwilling to raise taxes.
@@Who-vt9oh Agreed. Given the topic a "new" reserve currency should perhaps be based on globally available energy (broadly defined) divided on a pro rata basis by country. We could adapt for instance something like the IMF's Special Drawing Rights accounting system to be the basis for a new reserve currency. The economist Yanis Varoufakis also has a similar idea in which he dubbed the hypothetical currency Cosmos.
@@cate1463 blockchain technology is horrifically energy intensive and is literally the purest distillation of the pathologies that pervade capitalism. Bad idea
You should reach out to Arthur Keller or Aurelien Barreau
ecofascism is not just for kids anymore as the adults will need a debt jubilee very shortly.
Interesting. Energy. 38:00 minutes. Climate Change = heat = energy. In the human body, pain=energy.
21:25
Right!
Evolution or extinction? Are we able to learn to live in harmony with each other, nature and technology including AI? Sustainability not profitability. Mindfulness and self love, respect not exploitation. Our species faces a major die off, the population is passing the peak, passing a tipping point where our population goes from exponential growth to a transition to a new sustainable relationship with the ecosystem that has sustained us up until now. That downward curve can be as steep as a cliff which falls to zero, extinction, or it can begin steeply and recover as it returns to historic levels of sustainability, pre-technology levels such as pre-Columbian America. This could lead to a selection pressure that would produce a new species of hominid, speciation. The curve could be more gentle and could include technological solutions that would level off at a population that could both live more harmoniously with nature and each other and incorporate technology that would represent an evolution into a new species of technologically enhanced humanity, cyborgs. Taking life to other planets, terraforming and evolving new species of humans who could survive other planetary ecologies is another path that will require technologies including genetic engineering to reach for the stars. Managing these changes in a moral and humane way brings hope to a future that appears very scary from our selfish and ethnocentric perspectives. Keep up the good work or as John Perkins says "Dream True" instead of living like the hero of his book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman." Be blessed, you are a blessing. Aboriginal cultures have much to teach us.
Reminds me of that book.
The third Wave.
The albedo/atmosphere make the Earth cooler not warmer.
Yes or no? If no pls ‘splain.
The GHGs must absorb “extra” energy upwelling from the surface radiating as a black body. The kinetic energy heat transfer processes in the contiguous atmospheric molecules make BB impossible as also demonstrated by experiment.
Agree or disagree? If disagree pls ‘splain.
If both or either of these points is correct the greenhouse effect is not.
No greenhouse effect, no GHG warming, no man/CO2 driven global warming or climate change.
Version 2.0 120621
Hahahaha! You saved 1 letter spelling explain as ‘splain! Now if this type of “efficiency” is how you conduct the rest of your intellectual enquiring I think I’ll stick with the big picture scientists.
@@mtn1793
Dumb rant - ZERO science!!
@@nxgrs74 I don’t see a lot of intellects piling on with your scientific breakthrough… But they’re all sheeple right?
@@mtn1793
A PhD is no guarantee the holder can't be wrong/mistaken/covering up errors. The consensus has been wrong in the past. And everyone knows you do what the boss wants done and say what the boss wants said.
And so far your scientific based rebuttal to my points is a big fat ZERO!!!
@@nxgrs74 That observation is mutual…
One distinctly woefully experience
The moment when my mother abused bramhin
We call Shashan Bramahan
Without rituals
I went behind to catch u .a gave him all the money I had and begged forgiveness on behalf of my father for the services that came 🙏.
Left us in caos.and confusion.
Chaos is the word
I'll come back in a while.
I cant believe there was not one word talked about population reduction . And also no mention of climatechange and the ramifications for the future of that . With these missing this whole interview became completely inauthentic
friend - a) it's hard to condense the entire story into 5-6 hours let alone one hour. Look up my Earth Day talk 'Earth and Humanity: Myth and Reality' and you'll see plenty on climate/population b) I do discuss the importance of climate to me - and to all of us near end of this interview c) my view is we have to look at the core drivers of our problems not just the symptoms. One has to assume most people -(at least most of those listening to a podcast called Planet Critical) are already well aware of climate change and overshoot issues). The core drivers are: aggregate human behavior, massive energy surplus, an economic system using the wrong prices for everything. Climate/population are downstream effects, not causes of those. The answers lie in the intersection of those 3 domains. In my humble opinion. cheers
Thanks for saving me the time of listening to the whole thing. Without being clear that human overpopulation is the base problem underlying climate change and all the other unfolding catastrophes, effort is misdirected.
@@thegreatsimplification Check out William Rees, who coined the concept of "ecological footprint". In his opinion, which makes sense to me, human population overgrowth is the core driver, and climate change is a symptom (there are several other symptoms as well. He has many talks on UA-cam.)
@@buddyneher9359 and why do you think the human population has exploded in the way that it has? GDP relies on energy.
@@buddyneher9359 he explained that what he calls the carbon pulse is the cause of explosion of the population and consumption, and that this will end, in the near future, he’s a level beyond just stating that overpopulation is the big /only problem. You might better really listen and educate yourself more. Kind regards
The answer is NOT using considerably less energy consumption!
The answer is modular molten salt reactors for the foreseeable future of grid energy. As fossil fuels run-out, nuclear energy can be used to create all liquid and gas transportation needs in the foreseeable future.
Lots of theoretical hand wringers with very few solutions. The world understands we must make changes but we don't have a reason yet to cancel the world as so many think we can and should. That's suicide, and helps nothing. I like some ideas but there's a lot that is debatable. Humanity can only take so much drastic change and we have had our share in the past 25 years...
Here is a pinned observed post.?
Is that black Market..or parallel economy...?
One himan being is 100 Watts each one us is
Except for food habits?
The aqi were okay So?
There is a limit to the carrying capacity of the Earth for humanity while maintaining a healthy worldwide environment. If managed intelligently, it is a huge number, but still finite.
The answer is NOT colonization of other planets which are naturally incompatible with life in general, and greatly so for Earth bound life in particular.
The answer is spin gravity habitats from island sized O'Neal cylinders to continent sized McKendree cylinders.
Initially, these spin gravity habitats would form a planetary Dyson swarm around the Earth sourced from mining and manufacturing on the Moon.
Eventually, a full scale Dyson swarm around the Sun using future starlifting technology to mine the Sun for heavy elements to build the solar Dyson swarm with, and to construct colonization fleets for appropriate nearby stars. This has the the additional benefit of preventing the Sun from becoming a red giant, extending its life at least several trillions of years.
If I may
Generalist is a lovely word likely friendly chap a Barber ...
Apathy?
You mean unit of medicine?
Lol. "Post carbon"!
That was called the stone age .
an prim is our future. now about that transition ... something, something, bottleneck.
Say that again.
Hmm..
Hagen.
I’m hope you can work for RFKJR when he is President.
I agree with most of what he says, but he is deficient in his knowledge of basic biology, ignorance of the negative impacts of agriculture, and how to dramatically improve the world environment in the future.
Agriculture has been the foundation of civilizations for thousands of years, but the erosion of soil by wind and rain has slowly destroyed those civilizations in the past, much faster after the industrialization of agriculture.
The answer is regenerative agriculture.
I agree we can not continue to use fossil fuels for much longer as we will obviously run-out. Liquid fuels are essential for light and personal transportation for the foreseeable future.
The answer is modular molten salt reactors.
The climate crisis is a new scam to transfer wealth to the elites from the rest of us through fear mongering.
The answer is to quit consuming the propaganda, and educate yourself on what is really known about historical and anthropogenic climate.
Put your resources into promoting regenerative agriculture and modular molten salt reactors! The Earth and future generations will thank you for it!!!
These days. As nourishment what is better understood.white or brown bread why?
Nate Hagens is a nice guy and I agree with him we need social and economical change. Where he is wrong and won't ever probably admit it because it would put in jeopardy everything he has been working on for the past 20 years is energy. The Keystone to his whole argument and everything he bases all he beliefs and conclusions on is that energy is going to become harder to get and more expensive. He is right when it comes to fossil fuels and renewable like solar, wind and hydro electric. What he completely ignores is Thorium nuclear energy. One piece of thorium the size of a walnut holds enough energy that can be extracted to meet all the energy needs of one person for their entire lifetime. That is all their transpiration, heating, cooling and electrical needs. The United States government back in the 1950's stockpiled enough thorium and buried it in Nevada. There is enough thorium there to meet all the energy needs of everyone in the United States for the next 50 years.
Hi there, I'm trying to find a nuclear expert to get on the show to discuss this possibility. Any suggestions?
@@PlanetCritical Sorensen and his aids might be willing to talk about it. The issue with FLiBe (used as the molten salt to hold the thorium and uranium, transferring heat out of the reactor) is that the neutrons degrade the Lithium 7 which creates hydrogen in the form of deuterium which mixes with the fluoride salt to create hydrofluoric acid, which is incredibly toxic, to the point where if it gets on your skin, it can eat down to, into, and through your bones. Basically, yes, the chemistry and energy density is there, but there are some seriously nasty handling issues that engineering would need to solve. Another alternative is the fusion guys at MIT may have actually figured out how to get high enough magnetic fields to make fusion a reality. You can look up the SPARC fusion reactor to see the direction they are heading. There are also people making startups around their strategy who might love to talk about it. The strategy uses REBCO tape, a high temperature super conductor that wasn’t feasible to manufacture reliably until recently. And of course, there’s also the argument of cause and effect, that perhaps if the energy becomes available, we’d still expand to fill up and ultimately consume the energy, so even these technological advance would only kick the can further down the road.
Christianity is an interesting belief that most people don't study deeply enough to find out what is really claims. It speaks of a creation that occurred a bit more than 6,000 years ago. It speaks about everything winding down. It wouldn't require you to make up a fake religion of your own.
Might be White if just oven bajed and out with the value.
You can always toast that...?
political government is separation from God's leadership, which provides substantive choice needed for organizing peoples and nations into God's free will kingdom
human choice decentralization; God's kingdom central authority
political government requiring choice replaces focus on God's nature choice; end political government and start God's free will kingdom central authority
God's free will kingdom, human choice decentralization
No fairytales. Human thought did not peak in the Iron Age.
join and give emotion and feeling to God's free will kingdom for unity of the world through human nature
Really... you are explaining every. " Swing. Say that again..
human nature.
Follow God's leadership of free will kingdom in world
sovereign God substantive choice organizing people(s) of world
This reciting of statistics is nonsensical, as are your solutions.