this FINALLY helped me understand why balanced audio ends up cancelling out the noise. previously, i could only imagine it cancelling the signal and leaving the noise lol. thanks!
Overall, a really good explanation. I would just add one thing. When you showed the adaptor cable with the xlr on one end and the TS on the other, not everyone deals with the 2nd signal conductor the same way. Sometimes the 3rd conductor is not connected to anything, and sometimes they combine or shunt it to ground. So, if you have an adaptor or cable that shunts the extra signal to ground, you can get a short circuit if plug the cable into something that is putting out an actual balanced signal. Typically results in a lot of noise, but in some cases may do damage. Its just something to be aware of. Also, its always a good idea to keep phantom power in mind because its only used on mics, and not all of them.
This was complete and utter brilliance. Well thought out and flawlessly executed. Thank you fir putting this kind of info into the world . We all need this kind info available. 🤩👏
Great video! Balanced cables are a great example of 'simplicity is genius'. As far as I can gather, the 'balanced line' concept was invented by Bell Labs for use in telephone wires. Pretty easy to see how it would be useful there.
Originally I believe they used TRS connectors for that since, they were all about that type of connection. It would be Hollywood and RCA that would largely adopt balanced audio via what we now know is XLR, but originally was known as a Canon plug. Of course they offered 4-pin stereo, and a few other types of connectors. Theres a few weird XLR looking connectors for power connections for example.
Never seen an example like this, but had to laugh to myself when I knew where this was going... And the humor of your self made EMI. Really cool concept in how balanced audio works, so simple but so genius... and so sad that digital cameras that aren't $3000+ still all use unbalanced audio in.
@@SoundSpeeds I don't think so much of an after thought. There's a reason Sony, Cannon and the other high end cameras have at least mini XLR jacks. It's called... wait for it... They want you to... Spend more... MONEY $$$. Nothing like good old profit margins to get common sense as a part of the business model :)
@@SoundSpeeds If there was a company that wanted to shake up the market that had good video already and cared about quality audio without jumping the price far beyond the cost of the preamps upgrade cost and decided to spend the 10 cents on mini XLR over AUX every other company would magically follow with their own cheaper model. The big companies are purposely segmenting the market with artificial record time limitations and such to make the consumer spend more. Record time limitations have a "Zero" cost removal factor, in fact it costs money to program in those limitations.
@@SoundSpeeds just discovered this channel oh about 10+ videos ago. I've done enough live sound to be able to filter out as I continue to expand my knowledge matrix style into the further expanding film sound realm. I helped on a small set and I loved it so I've been looking to get into it and slowly building my bag out.
It's tough breaking in but once you're in, it's hard to leave. I always tell people two Ms... mingle and master your craft. Production sound people love talking shop and if you can find them, they will talk away. Join pro sound forums online in your area and watch for gatherings. Show up and get your face recognized. Mingle and make friends. Someone may very well hire you. In the mean time, work on mastering your craft. Learn the gear and how everything works. Read product manuals and visit sound shops to meet people and ask questions. Having product knowledge is key and if you know what features make each brand desirable and have played with them in sound shops, you're going to be set up well.
Thank you and to be honest, I recorded this a few times and few ways and did zoom in on the wave forms at one time. The issue that Reaper doesn't invert the phase on screen when you hit the button and while the noise would look identical by itself, I speak over it and the wave forms look different because they are a combination of the noise and my voice. It wasn't that interesting. Email me and I can maybe unlist the part with me zooming in on it, realizing that it totally doesn't look visually like anything that helps in the demonstration and bail on the entire take.
at 8:38 I can see the sound is inverted if you look at both wave forms, bigger the screen the more obvious; mobile phones are a tad too tiny compared to the 32" beast I am sitting at. This was an interesting example cause I never personally understood balanced and unbalanced other than interference and travel distance being far better with XLR vs AUX which is unbalanced but didn't actually know the signal was inverted and even if I would have known now I know how the interference is removed at the end point.
The noise cancellation happens because of a differential input, not because of the signal being inverted. The cancellation still happens if one signal is zero. Balancing means that the output and input impedance pairs are equal. Complimentary signals may help cancel generated magnetic fields in cable runs, but that is different and not a big problem. The screen of a cable does does not go to XLR pin 1 "because it is ground", but because that pin mates before the other two. It should be directly connected to chassis in the equipment and that should be grounded, but that isn't the same thing.
@@SoundSpeeds That is just a knee jerk reaction. Do the same demo without the inverted signal: signal + noise - noise = signal. Go watch some of Bill Whitlock's videos and then see it you disagree with the entire AES.
I went on a hunt for what you're talking about and didn't find Bill Whitlock but I did find many other people that confirm what I was saying. Common mode rejection (what I am referring to) is the best mode of cancelation although what you're saying still technically works even though it's not the best way. Your described method cancels the noise floor but not as much the interference coming down the line. Ground always "mates" before hot signals which is the point of the ground to begin with. The same is true in any other field that deals with electrical signals like... power. I know from personal experience that if you always ground to the chassis, you can introduce undesirable signals going the opposite direction which is why I don't do it. The AES is split on whether it should be done or not and there's no standard for it for that reason. Ray Rayburn discussed that with me in an interview a few years ago on this channel.
@@SoundSpeeds I hear a lot of talk that balanced cabled are better at powering certain types of headphones/earphones? Is this true? Could you explain? Apologies for the questions, I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to the world of audio but I do find it fascinating and love learning about it!
Not really. It basically helps isolate each channel's audio from bleeding into the other channel thru the common ground there by causing noise. Crosstalk is the term. I'm on set and can't go into it in greater detail right now but I did look and found an article that explains it with visuals. dekoniaudio.com/articles/what-are-balanced-and-unbalanced-headphone-cables/
So you invert the signal on one of the two signal lines at each end... doesn't that insert some amount of latency that is going to show up as harmonic distortion on the output?
Thanks for the explanation, I understand it better now. Does the balanced cable to all the work, or do the devices on each end need circuitry to separate an recombine the in and out of phase signals?
Would it help to put RF Shielding Foil on set (where it can't reflect obviously? Side note: I use Balanced Cables exclusively, I'm just thinking more for general RF protection like for Radio Mics. Would it block the RF used on set or would it prevent any external RF from outside the set interfering with the RF being used on set? That's a mouthful xD
We wouldn't be able to do anything like that even if we wanted to. Usually sound stages are very solid so resilient to RF from other stages but on a stage, everyone from the camera department with their remote focus and video transmission systems to Producers on their WiFi hotspots need to use radio frequencies so we can't put up any faraday material or anything.
1. Sennheiser on there g3/g4 system have 3 pins on 3,5mm connector both from microphone and also from output and there are two cable 3,5’mm out or xlr but how do you now if the system run unbalanced or balanced? 2. Why don’t all use this kind of system instead of only two pin, the cost is more of course but not so much? 3. Can you check if the signal is real balanced in some way or if it’s a faked XLR with only two pin that used?
1) Lavs are different hence why I said this pertains to XLRs. 2) Going balanced is more expensive. Discount brand cut costs everywhere they can. 3) You can open up the connector or get a cable tester. A multimeter also works.
this FINALLY helped me understand why balanced audio ends up cancelling out the noise. previously, i could only imagine it cancelling the signal and leaving the noise lol. thanks!
Awesome! Glad to help! Thanks for watching.
Brilliant common sence way of demonstrating such a topic. Thank You.
Sure thing. Thanks for watching.
Overall, a really good explanation. I would just add one thing. When you showed the adaptor cable with the xlr on one end and the TS on the other, not everyone deals with the 2nd signal conductor the same way. Sometimes the 3rd conductor is not connected to anything, and sometimes they combine or shunt it to ground. So, if you have an adaptor or cable that shunts the extra signal to ground, you can get a short circuit if plug the cable into something that is putting out an actual balanced signal. Typically results in a lot of noise, but in some cases may do damage. Its just something to be aware of. Also, its always a good idea to keep phantom power in mind because its only used on mics, and not all of them.
Excellent, and correct, points
This was complete and utter brilliance. Well thought out and flawlessly executed. Thank you fir putting this kind of info into the world . We all need this kind info available. 🤩👏
Wow, thank you Robert. :-) Thanks for watching.
Great video! Balanced cables are a great example of 'simplicity is genius'. As far as I can gather, the 'balanced line' concept was invented by Bell Labs for use in telephone wires. Pretty easy to see how it would be useful there.
I don't know the origin but I can see that
Originally I believe they used TRS connectors for that since, they were all about that type of connection. It would be Hollywood and RCA that would largely adopt balanced audio via what we now know is XLR, but originally was known as a Canon plug. Of course they offered 4-pin stereo, and a few other types of connectors. Theres a few weird XLR looking connectors for power connections for example.
Good info. Thanks.
5:52 - 6:06 glorious microphone hypnotizer at work
It worked. I kept you from clicking off during that 14 seconds. :-)
The genius of balanced cables is essentially what got me in this silly business in the first place. Still makes me giddy.
They really are amazing and yet, so simple. Thanks for watching.
5:53 That's an amazing Gollum impression
You know, I heard that when I got playback in Reaper and knee someone would comment on that. Thank you for acknowledging the precious.
Never seen an example like this, but had to laugh to myself when I knew where this was going... And the humor of your self made EMI.
Really cool concept in how balanced audio works, so simple but so genius... and so sad that digital cameras that aren't $3000+ still all use unbalanced audio in.
Oh, I know! What a missed opportunity. If only sound wasn't an afterthought with camera manufacturers.
@@SoundSpeeds I don't think so much of an after thought. There's a reason Sony, Cannon and the other high end cameras have at least mini XLR jacks. It's called... wait for it... They want you to... Spend more... MONEY $$$.
Nothing like good old profit margins to get common sense as a part of the business model :)
Indeed but the preamps on prosumer cameras are often garbage.
@@SoundSpeeds indeed, but we also know why. In the words of ACDC "Money Talks"
@@SoundSpeeds If there was a company that wanted to shake up the market that had good video already and cared about quality audio without jumping the price far beyond the cost of the preamps upgrade cost and decided to spend the 10 cents on mini XLR over AUX every other company would magically follow with their own cheaper model. The big companies are purposely segmenting the market with artificial record time limitations and such to make the consumer spend more. Record time limitations have a "Zero" cost removal factor, in fact it costs money to program in those limitations.
I was just searching for a video like this LOL. Amazing timing.
You know a guy though. Why not ask him?
Brilliant demonstration!
Thank you. :-)
@@SoundSpeeds just discovered this channel oh about 10+ videos ago. I've done enough live sound to be able to filter out as I continue to expand my knowledge matrix style into the further expanding film sound realm. I helped on a small set and I loved it so I've been looking to get into it and slowly building my bag out.
It's tough breaking in but once you're in, it's hard to leave. I always tell people two Ms... mingle and master your craft. Production sound people love talking shop and if you can find them, they will talk away. Join pro sound forums online in your area and watch for gatherings. Show up and get your face recognized. Mingle and make friends. Someone may very well hire you. In the mean time, work on mastering your craft. Learn the gear and how everything works. Read product manuals and visit sound shops to meet people and ask questions. Having product knowledge is key and if you know what features make each brand desirable and have played with them in sound shops, you're going to be set up well.
Part of me would like to see the phases displayed graphically, but I guess that could clutter the overall message a bit.
Splendid demonstration.
Thank you and to be honest, I recorded this a few times and few ways and did zoom in on the wave forms at one time. The issue that Reaper doesn't invert the phase on screen when you hit the button and while the noise would look identical by itself, I speak over it and the wave forms look different because they are a combination of the noise and my voice. It wasn't that interesting. Email me and I can maybe unlist the part with me zooming in on it, realizing that it totally doesn't look visually like anything that helps in the demonstration and bail on the entire take.
at 8:38 I can see the sound is inverted if you look at both wave forms, bigger the screen the more obvious; mobile phones are a tad too tiny compared to the 32" beast I am sitting at. This was an interesting example cause I never personally understood balanced and unbalanced other than interference and travel distance being far better with XLR vs AUX which is unbalanced but didn't actually know the signal was inverted and even if I would have known now I know how the interference is removed at the end point.
It's really innovative yet so simple. Thank you for watching.
This is what I should have learnt in college .
Heard that. My film degree was more film theory than anything else.
Awesome explanation
Thank you. :-) Thanks for watching.
The noise cancellation happens because of a differential input, not because of the signal being inverted. The cancellation still happens if one signal is zero. Balancing means that the output and input impedance pairs are equal. Complimentary signals may help cancel generated magnetic fields in cable runs, but that is different and not a big problem.
The screen of a cable does does not go to XLR pin 1 "because it is ground", but because that pin mates before the other two. It should be directly connected to chassis in the equipment and that should be grounded, but that isn't the same thing.
I disagree but OK
@@SoundSpeeds That is just a knee jerk reaction. Do the same demo without the inverted signal: signal + noise - noise = signal.
Go watch some of Bill Whitlock's videos and then see it you disagree with the entire AES.
OK
I went on a hunt for what you're talking about and didn't find Bill Whitlock but I did find many other people that confirm what I was saying. Common mode rejection (what I am referring to) is the best mode of cancelation although what you're saying still technically works even though it's not the best way. Your described method cancels the noise floor but not as much the interference coming down the line.
Ground always "mates" before hot signals which is the point of the ground to begin with. The same is true in any other field that deals with electrical signals like... power. I know from personal experience that if you always ground to the chassis, you can introduce undesirable signals going the opposite direction which is why I don't do it. The AES is split on whether it should be done or not and there's no standard for it for that reason. Ray Rayburn discussed that with me in an interview a few years ago on this channel.
Brilliant video! Do you think buying a balanced cable for i.e.m's for music on the go is worth it?
For IEMs? I would think whatever they come with should be fine. Humans aren't mass sources of interference.
@@SoundSpeeds I hear a lot of talk that balanced cabled are better at powering certain types of headphones/earphones? Is this true? Could you explain?
Apologies for the questions, I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to the world of audio but I do find it fascinating and love learning about it!
Not really. It basically helps isolate each channel's audio from bleeding into the other channel thru the common ground there by causing noise. Crosstalk is the term. I'm on set and can't go into it in greater detail right now but I did look and found an article that explains it with visuals.
dekoniaudio.com/articles/what-are-balanced-and-unbalanced-headphone-cables/
So you invert the signal on one of the two signal lines at each end... doesn't that insert some amount of latency that is going to show up as harmonic distortion on the output?
No latency at all. There's nothing electronic - it's wiring.
any point using balanced on a 2-3m headphone cable? (like idk 5% more clarity due to less inteference?)
You'll never hear it
Thanks for the explanation, I understand it better now. Does the balanced cable to all the work, or do the devices on each end need circuitry to separate an recombine the in and out of phase signals?
That is inherent to XLR. There are other aspects of the cable build that can help with RFI/EMI reduction.
@@SoundSpeeds thanks
Sure thing
Really good explanation!
Thank you. :-)
Would it help to put RF Shielding Foil on set (where it can't reflect obviously?
Side note: I use Balanced Cables exclusively, I'm just thinking more for general RF protection like for Radio Mics.
Would it block the RF used on set or would it prevent any external RF from outside the set interfering with the RF being used on set? That's a mouthful xD
We wouldn't be able to do anything like that even if we wanted to. Usually sound stages are very solid so resilient to RF from other stages but on a stage, everyone from the camera department with their remote focus and video transmission systems to Producers on their WiFi hotspots need to use radio frequencies so we can't put up any faraday material or anything.
1. Sennheiser on there g3/g4 system have 3 pins on 3,5mm connector both from microphone and also from output and there are two cable 3,5’mm out or xlr but how do you now if the system run unbalanced or balanced?
2. Why don’t all use this kind of system instead of only two pin, the cost is more of course but not so much?
3. Can you check if the signal is real balanced in some way or if it’s a faked XLR with only two pin that used?
1) Lavs are different hence why I said this pertains to XLRs.
2) Going balanced is more expensive. Discount brand cut costs everywhere they can.
3) You can open up the connector or get a cable tester. A multimeter also works.
Epic video
Thanks dude.
witchcraft!
Science.