BEST/WORST FANTASY TROPES!
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- You all voted on twitter. I used it as an excuse to dance. Let's talk about the best and worst fantasy tropes the genre has to offer.
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It was a weird mood. So weird video. I also wasn't exactly sure what I was going to do when I hit record. I am happy with the result.
I really liked the editing more action and less gifs
...the quarantine may be affecting you a bit.
The Bulgarian was kinda bad
Well it was a fun video, also
I think lockdown is straining Daniel... though I love the vibe 😂
Does Iroh count as a old wise wizard? He can shoot a fireball and give advice.
100%
Yes
Yea
Absolutely
And one of the best ones too
The socks tho.
Daniel Greene has to get socks sponsor. Seriously.
He is good at promoting it.
Pretty sure my first Daniel Greene video watched was a green screen outfit. Green screen socks would be funny. (Though sock sponsors would be better.)
And the untied drawstring. I wondered when his pants were going to fall down.
@@DanMackison how sexual
I guess you could say I'm a chosen one...
*Cause everyone hates me ayeee*
Haha, this had me cracking up.
I will always read these like I read Legolas in Fellowship of the Ring when they learn what it is the face in Moria: "A Balrog! Ai! Ai!" In two ways: like a goodfella going "Ayyyyuh..." but your response reads as it spells "Ayeeeeeh!"
So that part of LotR was a head scratcher: was Legolas panicking? Or was he being all gangsta witty? Ayyyyuh.
Resurrection is my least favorite trope. If the character doesn’t change after death, what was the point of killing them off?
Alex Akard I hate resurrections where the character is changed like Gandalf or Eustace in Narnia
That's why Lady Stoneheart is so great. It's another piece of GRRM's great work with flipping tropes on their head
Resurrection sells.
@@lordblenkinsopp1537 I disagree, I feel GRRM is so obsessed with inverting tropes he ends up being incredibly predictable in that he will always do the opposite to whatever trope he approaches. Making him as formulaic as those tropes.
@@DaDunge not true.
He's just unpredictable. He never do the opposite of things.
I am sure when he finishes the series, you'll see how great he is and that he doesn't do the opposite of every trope.
That's why it takes so much time for him to finish the series.
Bottom line, you'll see in the next books why what you just said isn't the case at all.
Trope subversion: a farmboy being secret royalty. Becomes king. Rules so bad people hate him and the kingdom falls apart because of all the debts he's made
Can you expect a lot from someone who may have missed all their executive management classes?
So the original King Arthur story?
Ben Wyatt and Ice Town
Sounds almost like the backstory to an actual good fantasy story.
But he isn't willing to abdicate. Starts turning his Kingdom into Fantasy North Korea. Inadvertently becomes the dark lord.
Daniel: "Let's begin with the biggest controversy of all..."
Me: "Your outfit?"
Can we actually talk about this? What is he wearing?
@@guessmyname1246 clothing
@@thisisme4074 I... I have no rebuttal against that
@@guessmyname1246 r/technicallytrue? lol.
The angle which the vidoe was taken at is a bigger one. I thoiught he was slavsquatting for half the video then I realized it was jsut taken at a slightly odd angle.
That's why I like Darth Vader he's both the chosen one and the Dark Lord.
From a certain point of view...
My favourite part this is that the prophecy becomes 100% true: he was the chosen one to bring balance to the Force. The Force had too many lightside members and he worked to bring the balance.
@@captainsoda6590 he never failed to fulfill his destiny/job and he did it twice. lol
Not anymore buddy. Palpatine survived.
@@andrerobinson3233 This is literally my only problem with the sequels. They were average movies at best, but I didn't dislike them, even if they were disappointing.
But then after messing up their own trilogy, they tried to fix it by damaging the originals? "The rise of skywalker" and it doesn't even have Anakin, Luke or the prophecy in any relevant scene? Kills off the actual Skywalkers (Because love??), brings back Palpatine, kills him in the worst possible way and makes his bloodline the only survivor? It was entertaining to watch, but damm, surely they ruined the series on purpose? Like some car insurance scheme, where they crashed their vehicle on purpose and hoped to get enough money to buy a new and completely different car. The whole trilogy is reminiscent of a creative writing project in highschool where somebody ran out of time and gave up.
I'm okay with the chosen one trope so long as the writer thinks about who/what choses them. Take Harry Potter, the modern iteration of the chosen one trope, who was himself chosen by the series villain through hubris & presumption.
That’s what I love about Harry as a Chosen One. He was one option for the prophecy. And he was only the one because Voldemort felt purebloods were the only ones who should survive, so Harry’s halfblood status caused him to be chosen. And I also love that Harry was never defined by that. All his actions were his choice, whether it was saving the stone or catching the heir of Slytherin. I like that Dumbledore makes Harry see he would always choose to fight Voldy, regardless of the prophecy.
@@janhavi1977 Exactly. What Lucky said.
I have a curious thought about the Chosen One trope. I'll just say that I'm quite new to the fantasy genre when it comes to novels, but has there been a story that uses the trope for the big bad evil? Like a prophecy that someone, somewhere is going to destroy everything and it's up to our "heroes" to find the person and stop the apocalypse. If this has already been done, I'd greatly appreciate it if you can share me the book's name. I just think this sort of way of doing the trope, gives a lot of potential for tension and moral decision making by people you would consider the traditional good and justice sort of characters y'know
@@xxrabbitsnipezxx5794 Yup :) try the Faithful and the Fallen. That series does have the "big bad is chosen to destroy the world" trope. And obviously Wheel of Time, where Rand is chosen not just to save the world, but also destroy it.
@@janhavi1977 Ahh I've heard a lot about the Wheel of Time (which isn't surprising considering who's channel we're on) but I didn't knew it had that aspect in Rand's prophecy. Interesting. Thanks a lot!
too much regular monarchies, just too much
give me some republics, oligarchies, anarchies, feudal societies, puppet monarchs manipulated by a group of 30 eunuchs, confederations, technocracies where the scientists rule, theocracies where the religious rule, one-party states, military dictatorships, empires with multiple emperors, dual monarchies like the austria-hungary empire, etc
or if you want a monarchy make it spicier, make it constitutional, make it elective, make it absolute
more city-states, more international governments, more puppet/satellite states, more vassal states, more micronations
Need more Tetrarchs
now THAT'S a hot take! finaly somone said it
I mean, a monarchy is just a religious, hereditary dictatorship
@@mightycobalt3269 No, it is not.
T H I S
2:56
“As Long as they can shoot a fireball and give advice”
Uncle Iroh?
YES
This was a cool discussion! Personally my least favourite tropes is characters not staying dead, just means I never mourn characters because I always expect them to come back.
Ultimately I think that any trope can be done well in the right hands!
Ah yes, the classic 'we never found the body' trope. Force the audience to mourn the character (as long as you put in the work to make them care), and then make them feel like the feelings are wasted in the next installment of the series.
I know, right! That's one of the main reasons I love GoT so much. I was just so shocked that so many MCs died. I loved it.
@@Jrdn357 Jon came back though.
@@saivamshi7740 Yeah, but that happened beyond season 4. And we don't talk about any seasons past that point.
@@kokorodaki4017 I have trust issues because of authors that do this! Haha
Daniel covering up his data analysis for his book as a video is what I'm here for! :D
Hay, a writer's gotta do what a writer's gotta do ;P
Same thought. No shame haha.
When I heard secret royalty as a trope, I thought something completly different. I was thinking it was when a character in the ensemble group was hiding the fact they were royalty, be it prince or princess ect, from the rest due to circumstances. And I love that trope even if it isnt super common
I really like that trope too- hiding the royalty. There is a series called the Chronicles of the Necromancer. It wasn’t exactly the creme de la creme of high fantasy but I thought that trope was done well enough.
I love secret identity stuff in general.
It can be okay, but I’ve seen one or two where it comes entirely out of left field as a deus ex machina at the very end.
@@skycastrum5803 I mean. That's every trope though. You can have any trope be done amazingly well or horribly wrong. They're tropes just because they're common themes/plot devices. The skill of the writer determines how its used
altoguy16499: Mostly true. It’s more than just a trope being overused that makes it good or bad. My post is an example of how this one might be used poorly. It’s sort of like all those things people are told to avoid in writing stories. They can be done, but they’re easy to screw up. Doesn’t mean a trope is bad, but there are pitfalls that need to be avoided (at least in this reader’s opinion).
Pratchett was the absolute king of taking the piss out of the standard fantasy tropes, especially the hidden royalty trope.
This!
I heard "hidden royalty" and immediately thought about Captain Carrot. Who btw is subverted so well he's probably the only character of his type I wholeheartedly love ("hidden royalty" isn't the only trope he embodies that I hate after all).
If you go by real life examples, around 1/10 of the country would ve related by blood to nobility or royalty.
Specially near the brothels.
@@arienrhod1 Not just Captain Carrot. Remember when the aristocracy found that Nobby was somehow distant royalty? "Vimes'd go spare!!"
@@malonemalo Right. According to genealogists, literally everyone in Europe today is associated with former royalty and Charlamagne is a common ancestor. Being a descendant of recent nobility is granted more, e.g. both of my parents come from ex-noble families.
Yes but he also manages to do it in a way that doesn't feel jarring. Also I would remind you that Neil Gaiman played that trope straigt with Stardust and made it work.
Here’s a dislike: the shadowy hooded figure in the corner of the room who never wears their hood again after they take it off.
And who is actually super suspicious when they're supposedly dressed like that to avoid suspicion.
(This is also part of why I have a hard time taking the Assassin's Creed series seriously)
I can't think of many examples of this purely because my mind is still stuck on Strider
Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
@@neddles33 lol
Never read Assassin's Creed. So I can't speak to that. However....
No apologies I love Aragorn/Strider and always will. 😄
person: redemptio-
anyone who ever watched atla: ZUKO
his redemption was so good
On the flip side: *glares at GRRM's supposed plan for Jaime Lannister*
HONOUR
@@charlottetrinckvel2634 *Pelvic thrusts*
HONOR! HONOR!
Tea
My least favorite trope is having the villain say all of the things that audience knows are true but the hero never does anything regarding the points they made after they defeat them, i.e. sympathetic and nuanced villains being treated as irredeemably & cartoonishly evil by the protagonists.
How many villains become the way they are because people like the hero refuse to listen to them and keep them down? Why must it always be readers who end up saying that the villain "had good points or intentions, they just went about it all wrong" and never the actual characters in the story?
Watch Black Panther, the protagonist recognises the antagonist was correct, challenges the status quo and implements a less extreme version of their goals, it is **chef's kiss** the pinnacle of superhero films.
Or as an addendum to that, the villain actually making alot of sense and doing things rather pragmatically and backed by knowledge and wisdom... and then murdering a thousand virgins because god forbid we have any ambiguity over who we should be empathising with kill that monster! Then all his good points are promptly forgotten because they came from someone so eeeeeevil
@@barrylyndon5552 In general, trying to have a single villain be mostly sympathetic and still a total monster to maintain the black-and-white dichotomy tends to fail. I'm sure some author has done it, but all the examples that try tend to fall short of crossing the line between those two. No BBEG can order their underlings to commit genocide or destroy the world and still be sympathetic. It might work if they're someone turning to villainy to spite an even worse villain, but then they're not the villain of the story anymore... just a named minor antagonist.
The moral event horizon is a thing, but to utilize it, the steps leading to that point have to make logical sense.
The old wizard mentor is so reliable that even Terry Goodkind couldn't entirely ruin it.
"I bought you from a whore for ten marks...she wanted 20 but I drive a hard bargain"- old wizard mentor
Humble, reliable, badass when needed. You can't go wrong with those traits.
@@hiredmuscle404 Awesome quote, First Law trilogy for those too lazy to look it up. The First Law books also give a great spin on the "surprise royalty" trope, related to the quote from above.
@@gottesurteil3201 I think a waiting excuse to smoke a pipe and tell people to sod off helps a bit too. Those same traits can make some really bland knights, retainers, butlers, even tradesmen, but something about adding in long hair and loud snoring just ensures a readable character.
Dude, I love Zed
I like Pratchett's take on 'Secret Royalty'; Carrot is clearly the rightful King of Ankh-Morpork based on all the old tropes that would indicate such a thing; he would also probably be a very good King if he ever took up the role, and there are people within the city who know that he probably does have royal ancestry...
But hardly anybody acknowledges the fact of his ancestry, he would clearly rather just be a member of the city watch, and almost everybody just seems to have come to an unspoken, mutual understanding that they are better off without royalty anyway. In some ways Carrot is fulfilling his duty as King to the city by being a fantastic watchman, without tying himself or the city into such a flawed system as a monarchy.
Of course Pratchett is the king of simultaneously subverting, mocking, and paying homage to fantasy tropes so it shouldn't really be surprising that he did it well.
The relationship between Carrot, Vetinari, and Vimes really sells the subversion of the trope for me. "We both see that you're the King, but I'll stay ruling things and you stay a watchman." "On the condition we annoy my 'boss' by giving him more and more titles (that he hates because of his upbringing.)"
GNU Pratchett, also, i especially like how he writes carrot, the trope good guys (don´t) kill could be good if used right, there is this part in men at arms when Vimes remember a lesson about a good and evil man;
"Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.
They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.”
it´s kind of weird, beacuse later vimes refuse to kill, I believe this is because he sees himself as an evil man.
People should obey the law because it’s the law, not because Captain Carrot is good at being obeyed. 😁
i agree that Carrot is a great subversion but i think that there is another layer. Carrot would be by our standards awesome king but in the Ankh-Morpork he would be disaster bcs u need someone like Vetinari to keep everything balanced.
What I think is great about it, is it acknowledges both the mythic power and grace of Kingship, and the inherent flaw. Having a hero champion who can stand as a living symbol of the land, the law, and the realm, can unite people and inspire them to greatness if they are good. Of course after they die, if we just y'know follow the next one because you gotta have a king now, things can get real bad real fast. Carrot just decided to be one thing without having to worry about a legacy, good or bad.
I like the overpowered youtuber trope
I've always had an issue with how popular the "morally gray" character trope is. You look everywhere and, politically and societally, people are preaching about doing good and being good and all that. But most of the world loves to read about bad people who may or may not do good things??? I don't get it. Now, don't get me wrong.... I do NOT like a perfect and infallible hero! I want my hero to be relatable. We are all flawed. BUT... what is relatable to me is a person who undoubtedly WANTS to do good things. A morally GOOD (not GRAY) character, but one who makes mistakes! One who is wrong and struggles with their decisions. What I'm seeing in much of modern fantasy are just characters who are JERKS, and not good people, but might end up doing good things. And I don't find that relatable nor true to the kind of people who are typically admired by society. I just think that we often confuse MORALS with ACTIONS.... I like a protagonist who is MORALLY good, but may do ACTIONS that are gray/ambiguous. Just my 2 cents....
100% THIS!!!
In my experience nobody has a moral high ground, everybody lives for themselves. Sure not everybody is a Glokta but very rarely you'll find someone willing to sacrifice their comforts for others.
So I guess moral grayness should refer to being selfish rather than outright jerk.
The trope speaks to the hearts of many readers/viewers. I agree in so much as I also enjoy a good boi (looking at you, Aang). However I cannot say that these morally white characters are anything when compared to the complexity of the greys. Just look at George RR Martins Jamie or Hound, or Miura’s Guts from Berserk. These characters tap into the primal darkness that lies within most people, and some people like me empathise with these characters more than the paragons of morality (I still love you tho Aang)
No character (who's not an archetipe of Absolute Evil) EVER believes it's doing evil things. Every evil done by a humanly evil is to achieve a "greater good" in that person's perspective, even when that greater good is a personal (egost) or sect (alignment) good. Morally gray characters in general not only have a kind of blured allignment but they also have a less orthodox praxis on their alignment: Either it's someone who perform "good deeds" outside of the evil-perspective good, or someone with no clear alignment that do both "good" and "evil" deeds towards characters.
Even "good-aligned" characters' personality flaws, prejudices and unrepent mistakes can make them be seen as morally grey, which is the point of "why an social-justice-centered generation likes so much a morally gray character": Everyone can relate to a morally gray character because eveyone commits mistakes and misjudges (and is up to accept minor evils deeds for a greater good? -_-'). being universally just and flawless as the "good characters" usually are is impossible standarts and subjectively unrealistic, so unrelatable.
I think what happens is that most people like to read about morally grey characters who GROW AND LEARN and BECOME GOOD. Think Jaime Lannister (in the books), Zuko, Justin Foley on 13 Reasons Why (until the ending). I think people like morally grey characters because they’re usually well-written and complex and have a great arc (towards goodness). It becomes an issue when an author doesn’t redeem their character or ruins their arc in the end (again, Jaime in the show and Justin Foley).
Me: *Nodding attentively*
My Brain: *Socks socks socks socks socks socks socks socks socks socks socks socks ....*
I'm surprised "long-lost (insert family member here)" wasn't in here. I've seen that a fair bit and I always hate it
would you mind explaining why you hate it?
2:35 a yeah! Epic Gandalf sax dance off!
(aka "a wizard did it!" from hellofutureme)
atomo capoeira I misread that as “Epic Gandalf SEX dance off” and I can never un-see that 🙈
@@HeatherReadIt :D
A WIZARD DID IT
The reason I dislike so many tropes is because once I identify them I can guess where the story will go, and the author fails to surprise me. They tend to railroad the story. Surprise royalty? Oh, he's going to replace the corrupt king, help the chosen one on his quest, and be a great ruler, right? Aaand he did. Yep.
If the surprise royal never becomes king, or goes from friend to antagonist, or outright villain, that would be unexpected. Tropes are fine, just don't let them take the wheel. Do your own thing.
Basically, it sounds like people just don't want another Lord of the Rings cut and paste.
Armolass, Grimly and Paragorn are not happy...
Frodo is not a chosen one, seriously... Aragorn is not a real secret royalty, because everybody important knows who he is (including himself of course) and what he wants (at least in the books, because he is somewhat pathetic in the movie).
All I’m gonna say is that Tolkien didn’t resort to the Chosen One trope. He kind of did the opposite of the chosen one - it was more a group of people seeing a problem and choosing to overcome it.
Also! I can’t be the only one who hates the “magic school” trope! Sitting me in a fantasy setting and then sending the main character into a school is the surest way to make me put a book down.
ur right,also what i hate about fantasy school trope is all the authors just copy paste JK rowling with hogwart and the 4 houses,they never do something different with the setting or the students,its just found it rlly boring
I think "A deadly education" has an interesting take on magic school and chosen one. In case you want to try this trope again.
@@Moo-if1mzeven hogwarts isn’t really that unique. The 4 houses thing is the norm for like every school in England, even the colours are the same. Shame too, cuz fantasy schools could be really fun and unique.
god damn it daniel, way to make me laugh first thing in the morning
Seriously this is my favorite way to start my day
Personally I love the Belgaraid and its follow up series the Mallorean. Sure some stuffs predictable but...... the prophecies are vague enough where you don't exactly know what it means but hindsight you can totally believe it.... its peppered with philosophical questions which helped shape me as a young reader.... also the CHARACTERS!!!!! God I could go on...... maybe its just because the Belgaraid was my first fantasy series after Harry Potter.... but man, fond memories for sure
Tropes or story beats I hate:
-One and only chosen one
-Demonization of anger
-Defeating common enemy leads to peace
-Surviving fatal injuries or causes or resurrections
Tropes I like:
-Expendable or replaceable chosen ones
-Found family
-Rival protagonists (protagonists on both or all sides of the conflict)
-Giant monsters
Oh my god YES, anger is a normal feeling to have, and I'm sick of writers treating it like it's some sort of crime to have it! It's like they're trying to say that if you're not happy 24/7 and ready to forgive them straight away then there's something wrong with you
Defeating a common enemy leads to peace is a good one to mention! It's super annoying and I like when a book takes a minute or two to explain how the "new order" is going to address long term peace between these groups that only got along for the purposes of getting rid of the 'big bad'.
Good list. I agree with demonization of anger. It's what you do with your emotions that makes a difference. Anger is a powerful driving force.
tropes I hate:
- the good guy can never kill no matter what the motivation or cost of leaving the bad guy alive
- not showing an enemy death so they can come back later
- resurrection
- time travel (see resurrection)
- only the main character can make any difference in the plot
- comic relief is ONLY there for comic relief (an example of this done right, for once, is Sokka from The Last Airbender)
- gaining power through sheer determination (see shounen manga) instead, power should be earned
tropes I love:
- found family
- good prevailing over evil
- intelligent protagonists who use wit over strength to win
- magic
Love the replaceable chosen one trope. I have a writing idea that prophecies and destines are attached, but not intrinsic to a character and certain people can remove them and attach them to someone else, setting up an economy around buying and selling prophecies. Chosen one is a farmers kid? Secretly burn down his farm and then offer to buy his destiny, now you are the chosen one and he can go buy some food.
@@barrylyndon5552 that's such a cool idea. Please update us when you publish it
I'd like to see a fantasy story about the friend of the chosen one, and how their friends position in the world affects them. I'm aware that a lot of books (wheel of time included) include perspectives that are essentially this, but I want one that has a single perspective character. Like a fantasy version of Enders Shadow.
Keyboard smash people and place names and another variation of “elvish” for every series. If all your names are stupid and I can’t begin to pronounce any of them then I just skip over them every time!
Names with apostrophes in them... "K'rill told An'h'shektah about the Om'ergh of F'sah..."
*closes book, never to return*
the glottal stop needs to die
@@Smo1k I hate that so much.
@@Smo1k *hastily covers up the few words I've constructed with apostrophes in*
The Belgariad is a childhood favourite of mine, but yes it's very very tropey.
As an introduction to fantasy for younger readers - it's fantastic.
agreed. it was one of my favorites as i was growing up
@@fremontstaples1752 silk_the_guide was my user name for ages, and I still have a Gmail account containing 'Drasnia' somewhere 😂 ah the memories
Yeah totally, I was too old when I read it, but knew it would be fantastic for younger readers.
I may or may not have based several D&D characters on silk....
@@fremontstaples1752 Brilliant 😂 It has made me so happy to hear from others who connected to those books and Prince Kheldar specifically haha
Imo, all tropes can be done well. It's just we see these formulaic executions of the same thing, so they get really annoying to read.
Fave tropes - mentor/old wizard trope, group of friends, quest story line, the anti hero, classic fantasy races.
Least fave - overpowered characters or the ones who discover that they got some powers and instantly get better than everyone else. marry sue type characters, insta love, pseudo-european medieval world building, racism themes, love triangles.
Could you give an example for pseudo-european medieval world building?
@@saivamshi7740 Song of Ice an Fire (Westeros), Lord of the Rings, The Kingkiller Chronicles, The Witcher etc.
@@Eliina552 I think the problem is that there is too much focus on pseudo-european world-building while there is too little focus on other "worlds". I love stories set in "fantasy europe", especially if they lean into the whole different nations and different cultures vibe. Yet I also really love more sprawling worlds filled with other influences, like Medieval China or Ancient Mesoamerica. I think we need more big worlds, that encompass both "pseudo-european" societies, but also a in-depth "pseudo-china" empire or a well-developed "pseudo-ethiopia".
“Why couldn’t you get over the fact that he burned your father’s house down? That’s never been the drive for a story.”
*Laughs in Red Country*
I’m not a fan of the trope that villains either look extremely ugly or have hideous soldiers...
Chosen one and secret royalty can be done really well: GRRM has with Jon Snow.
Haku infinite haha yeah that’s true
@Haku infinite it's less like they intentionally did the secret royalty trope poorly, and more like they did Jon himself poorly. Jon had like, 3 lines in season 7 and 8, and they were "we need allies", "She muh Queen", and "I dun want it". Every time someone would bring up Jon's royalty, he would default to them like he was an NPC with limited dialogue options. And then they kinda just buried it under Mad Queen Dany in the final few episodes, concluded with everybody forgetting Jon was the rightful heir to the throne when it was time to choose a new ruler in favor of the omniscient plank of wood formerly known as Bran Stark.
@@danieldaw1778
That's the show. GRRM has done a fantastic job with the characters in the books.
We'll have to see what he does with it before we can say that. He's GRRM so I fully expect him to throw it under the bus for cheap shock value at earliest convenience.
My least favorite tropes have always been "Elven Sues." Can't stand those knife eared bastards.
Meanwhile, Magnus Chase, the protagonist who actually died lol
On another note, I think The False Prince did the "secret royalty" trope remarkably well.
You need to keep in mind that the Belgariad was written because someone told the author that you can't write a good story that is filled with tropes. That said it is a bit of a chore to read but I did like it overall.
I have always liked the belgariad ... but I prefer his elenium series :D
I am currently reading Belgariad and it is on track to become my second or third favourite series, honestly.
I just could not get into the Belgariad, but the Elenium series absolutely sucked me in. I love grumpy old Sparhawk for some reason
The Elenium is the more interesting series, with more trope subversion. Especially the second half.
Personally I'm a fan of the Chosen One trope, but I like it when the author throws in something to make it more than "oh you just have this bottomless well of power to tap into".
I’m kinda getting tired of morally grey characters it’s getting to the point where we’re over saturated with series that wanna be grey. It’s going to lead to people not liking it if you can’t do them well or your market is over saturated
I think the problem it's in the execution. Sometimes while making characters more relatable they end up justifying or excusing all the Bad things they've done, and it comes across as the author sending mixed signals.
I see this a lot in YA
Reality is morally grey. Few instances in history can it truly be said an issue was black and white, and such stories have the risk of massively simplifying the themes/philosophy they try to portray.
@@aintnoslice3422 Even when it's fairly black and white alot of evil crap is still required. Take WW2 for example not ot many would argue for Germany. Dresden was still a shitty thing to do though.
I recently read The Broken Empire trilogy. This series skips the grey and goes all the way dark. The main protagonist is a very bad man. Yet the reader still finds oneself wanting him to win.
@@LanMandragon1720the more you learn about 30/40s Germany, the more you see their side of the argument
A trope I absolutely adore and I find most people are tired of seeing, is Elves and Dwarves! I can't get enough of them I swear. I can understand why others don't like them or feel they are overused a lot (they are lol), but for me, since I am a classic fantasy guy at heart, love em to pieces. I do like nuance though, I don't like all the Elves to be good and shiny and all Dwarves rough around the edges who are all Blacksmiths and wield battle axes (though I do love battle axes lol).. Diversity in personality and character goes a long way.
I agree. I love elves so much and always play them in video games if given the chance. I always enjoy when other races are added into the mix.
yeah, it's the 'world of hats' trope. Everyone from a people have to be exactly the same with the same interests and personality... except humans. That's what makes us special!!! *rolls eyes*
Don't get why people can't just create their own races, couldn't imagine putting dwarves or elves into anything i ever create why would you not want to make an original world with it's own original things
5:20 it’s pronounced “Bell” (the ringy thing) “Garry” (like the name) “ad” (advertisement)
“Bell-Garry-Ad”
As for a good example of, and twist on, a chosen hero/prophecy trope; I would suggest John Gwynne's first series 'The Faithful And The Fallen'.
Both sides of the fight truly believe themselves to be the good guy and the chosen one. It's superb, and rather realistic in the sense that everyone sees themselves as the hero.
WittyJackson I just finished that series and the way the author handled the Chosen One trope was really interesting! The characters were really good too, especially the supporting ones. My personal favorite being Veradis, he had a brilliant arc! I heard Gwynne’s sequel series is actually better though.
@@janhavi1977 I have just finished the second series and I can confirm it's just as good. Although I think my favourite from the first series, looking back, is still Maquin.
WittyJackson Oooh yes! Maquin and Fidele are so amazing! I’d say these characters are my top 3!
ohhh yes, this was done so well. idk if I was just entirely oblivious but it did take me some time to figure out who is the "good" chosen one
Fun video! One trope that makes a story less compelling for me is the hero/chosen one miraculously not being dead at the end after dying. It takes away much of the meaning of a sacrifice and ignores the fact that a great ending involves loss as well as triumph. It might be an audience pleaser, though.
0:00 Reminds me of the dude who sells you weapons in RE4
“What’re ya buyin’?”
With old wise person its also IROH! Man do I love that man!
I love chosen ones. I think it gives the main character a lot of weight over his shoulders. Look at Rand from the WoT. It's very well handled there.
I think his worked well because he was an almost unwanted chosen one. Like, he might save us, buuuut, we also might die. Also, he might go crazy and kill us.
@@vixision Yes, and that proves that you can take a tired trope and make it interesting. I remember Sanderson talked about that in one of his classes.
We love magic schools, but we don’t want any more “coming of age” or “teen drama”. Give us magical colleges like The Magicians.
Yeah, the biggest WOT youtuber's audience is totallyyyy biased aginst all classic fantasy lol that makes sense
We just appreciate them while also acknowledging the flaws and what we'd like to see done differently now
I really want a predictable story. Please dear god give me a predictable story. Life has been way too chaotic to feel like I'm going to read something ELSE that will possibly upset me.
Man, I love the secret royalty trope. BUT it has to be done in such a way where the character really struggles with the role. It's boring if they're naturally a born leader. But have them thrust into a position where they're a fish out of water, with few allies, political intrigue, and a steep learning curve? I eat that shit UP.
Apparently your audience doesn’t like damn near anything lol sound like a bunch of nit pickers. I feel like every single trope you named can be written in a dope way if the author takes the time to construct it and do it right. IMO, tropes become tropes for a reason.
Because they’re cool. Lol.
Assassin fantasy, sure, maybe not. Assassins *in* fantasy... well, I like me my Raylas.
I got to say i actully dont really like morally gray character. Sure they are maybe more complax, but to me they are also kinda boring. And just because reality is morally gray, dosent mean that fiction has to be. Im not saying that every hero should be the symbol of goddness and every villain need to be a literal hitler, but I just want to have a hero I can root for to win and a villain I can hate (or atleast love to hate).
Mostly I also view these tropes like the rest of your audience. For the Chosen One and the Secret Royalty I actually would not mind seeing them if they are done for like, side characters or secondary characters. For the most part I guess I would say if a main character's whole journey revolves around being the Chosen One or the Secret Royal then that's boring but it would be fun if it's for a character you are not constantly glued to :D. Or I can think of one specific instance of Secret Royalty (Pratchett*cough) that was done well in the sense of, yes it's there but it doesn't actually go anywhere :D
To Quote Tim, "A Wizard did it"
@Hello Future Me
Sucks that I can't tag him
Wow, I disagreed on nearly every point.
I actually don't love a band (fellowship) of characters being gathered together (recruited) and set out on a specific mission (quest).
I like sociological stories better, where we see multiple characters - multiple parts of a society - as something happens that toutches the entirety of the world. We get to see this event have effect on all parts and everyon in this world from different perspectives. Throughout such stories it's fun when fully established characters meet, form a band later, and tries to solve the societal ache.
The Song of Ice and Fire does this really well. The Way of Kings also does something like this.
Tolkien did the quest thing especially well by splitting up the fellowship and showing what happened in different parts of the world through different established band members.
I love the moment in books sometimes when main characters finally meet up. I like seeing their impressions of each other especially.
Good Answer.
True
Me, an aspiring writer: So I have this character who is 30 and knows magic... he's trained since he was ten... No, he actually knows what he's doing and he understands the magic system.
Readers: We prefer slow power creep.
Me: Did I mention he's a war hero? >.>
You can do it that way as long as his arc isn't about the magic system and that you slowly introduce the magic system to the reader so they aren't overwhelmed with the amount of information they have to remember.
@@Dekunutcase That's actually what I was planning for. I wanted to do a hard magic system that literally every character had access to which would give me the space to just seasons situations with explanation rather than info dump. His story is supposed to be a revenge arc not some chosen one story.
@@jonathandelange259 Sounds good to me. Hope you get it finished, edited and published :)
@@jonathandelange259 If you have a truly HARD magic system and don't break your own rules within it too often, then don't worry about power creep. Leverage the system against the spectacle of powerful character that reveals their deficits and flaws. This way, the system feels more complex, and your character much more vulnerable.
I enjoyed the Belgariad as a kid.
Eddings is a great starter/primer to fantasy, but trying to read it once you're an experienced reader is not going to end well.
@@bruceh9780 It was one of the first if not the first one I read so I would probably agree, haven't read it in like 20 years so.
@@KerstinMamma I still have my complete Eddings collection in a box waiting for my kids to get old enough to read it.
Jag med men även då var den full med tropes och plot armor.
@@turtleanton6539 true but I was like 7 so what did I know.
In my story I have a character be revealed as royal blood, but he was raised with other royalty so I feel that it isn't as outrageous as a farm boy becoming a king. The other part of that is that this character takes the revelation that his life was a lie really badly, and betrays a lot of people because of it and starts going on a murderous rampage with an army. This, and I was planning on him not being a good administrator so he drives his kingdom into the ground economically and he starts relying on sacking towns and cities to pay and feed his troops. (I cut out a lot of explanation because I don't want to give too much away)
So, basically, a villain.
I like the prophecy trope in the Faithful and the Fallen series by John Gwynne, it had a pretty cool twist that I sort of saw coming but wasn't fully prepared for. But I'm always gushing about the Banish Lands.
Magic school is basically a genre, or perhaps my thinking is too influenced by anime.
Would sacrificial death count as a trope? Because that feels like a characteristic of a lot of fantasy that deserves respect, sort of as a capstone to character development.
Yeah you could probably call it a genre. Anime or not.
Most animes do take place in schools, which I hate, but that's their target audience.
Sacrificial death could definitely be considered a trope. Depending on your sense of ethics/morality, a character sacrificing themselves for someone they love or even just respect could be seen as cringy and overdone (thanks Jesus, ya hispter) or as a sign of ultimate loyalty and the greatest expression of that love (again, thanks Jesus). If the person is brought right back without a set up reason, then i could see it failing. At least in HP the stone is the necessary object for that to work.
Sadly, i see it employed poorly more often than not. If someone sacrifices themselves, then they reeeeally should stay dead in the story. I think a lot of times authors just can't let go of a character.
Paul Schmidt: You make some very good points. I actually wasn’t thinking of the more direct premeditated sort of sacrifice. (Well, I did, but didn’t really distinguish between the two.) I was more thinking along the lines of “you go on ahead, I’ll hold the bridge” style sacrifices, or a character taking a bullet (arrow I suppose, since “fantasy”) for someone else. And I definitely wasn’t considering the whole “characters not staying dead” thing, as I figure it’s sort of a different subject. Such an easy way to ruin impact...
Do you have any thoughts about how the two types of sacrifices differ? I think I might prefer more spontaneous sacrifice due to it seeming more connected to reality, where the other type usually requires some suspension of disbelief to make the sacrifice necessary.
Oh, i see. Hmm.
I personally get turned off by characters that pull the self sacrifice card out of nowhere. If that character thinks they can make a difference long enough to save their friends, but has enough time to say a lengthy goodbye, it defeats the purpose in my eyes. I think the pacing of the scene would dictate a lot of the emotional impact of the sacrifice. If it's a split-second decision (like jumping in front of a projectile) then it feels more real.
As for the premeditated kind, the balance between what the reader is told and what happens with the character can make or break the affect. As long as it is set up well or at least shown that the character knows what they are doing, it can work very well. Gandalf knows exactly what they're getting into down in Moria, which is why he tried to avoid it by going through the mountains. Once Frodo chooses to go that way, he accepts his possible fate. However, neither he (apparently) nor the reader knows that he will be resurrected. (note: i have not read LoTR, just seen the movies too much, so I may be misinformed but oh well. And yes, it is heresy and I should read it NAOW.) Gandalf's sacrifice saves them because he can deal with the Balrog, while the rest of the fellowship can deal with the orc/goblin shenanigans. He's sacrificing himself in a way that he knows will help the best. I don't have a bad example of this, but i'm sure they exist in excess.
I hope any of that made sense lol
tldr: both can work but it depends on the context of the story and the intention of the character. If it requires suspension of disbelief, you should probs go back and rework that plot point.
8:43
You should read The Promised Neverland
Sooo hilariously enough a series I just finished and loved was the Throne of Glass by author Sarah J. Maas, and she is an over powered assassin, and is secretly a thought to be dead princes, chosen child to fulfill a destiny, empowered with god like magical power. Lot's happens. and I would recommend reading it.
I'm on a tightrope with the Throne of Glass! I didn't like "A Court of Thorns and Roses" that much, but I'm curious with the Throne of Glass saga because some people really like it
@@ArthurHLI I haven't been able to find any of A Court of Thorns and Roses books, so can't really compare them. But I thoroughly enjoyed Throne of Glass saga, it's a high fantasy medieval setting that starts of low magic, and starts to add more depth to the world and the magical stuff builds up.
And yet again, pre-Amazon: The Belgariad was written and released in an era when it might be the only fantasy book you could get. You might not even be able to find Lord of the Rings.
A much better (imo, of course) series from Eddings was the Elenium (the one with Sparhawk the Pandion Knight). It had more of that morally grey stuff that seems to be all the rage these days. Still entertaining 30 years after its first printing.
I'm writing two different books that have Chosen Ones as side characters. One is about a girl who gets her brother who is the Chosen One killed by accident because of her ambition so she has to step into his shoes. The other is about the daughter of a Dark Lord who is a really good father but still a genocidal freak and she decides to travel his empire and in the process meets the Chosen One who tries to convince her to help him take down the Dark Lord.
Those are both interesting premises. Good luck.
Sounds very interesting!
I would love to read your story, sounds really good !
this sounds really good! two strong female leads that don’t need to be chosen ones to be powerful, and the fact that they have the agency to decide to stop this dark lord is a really good motivator. my least favorite trope is when characters (especially main female characters since it’s more common for them) have no agency or desire to move the plot forward themselves and need someone else to do that for them. I hope writing goes well and I think your story sounds really cool!
the second story sounds so intriguing
I think I fall into classic category. Prophecy, chosen ones, darks lords, secret royalty, wise wizards, calls to adventures.
Oooh! I love morally grey characters and when there’s some philosophical discussion, with many different perspectives, and all the characters have reasonable arguments! But then I also love Chosen Ones (with a twist, like Rand being chosen to go insane or Harry being chosen by the villain himself, rather than destiny). I also love inns in stories. They’re so cozy and you get so much character development during those scenes!
If the characters and the story are great, I don't care whether they're tropey or not tropey. My favorite fantasy/syfy cases in point:
LOTR - Frodo (Chosen One and arguable "farmboy"), Aragorn (Chosen One/Hidden Royalty - to most other characters, he and a few others know who he is)
ASOIAF - Any prophecy or possible "chosen one" has 2 to 3 to 4 possible character options. Azhor Ahai for example could be Jon Snow, Danaerys Targaryen or, according to some few fans, even Jaime Lannister(??!!). Whose side is Bran Stark on, the humans or The Others? Is he good or evil? Both? Does it matter?
Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels - No chosen except for candidates at hatchings who get "chosen" by the baby dragons. More than one "villain". But again it's a matter of perspective. Some major conflicts arise out of differing opinions about how their society should change/evolve in response to nature and new technology . A lot like today.
Star Wars - depending on the trilogy, three different chosen and one turned into a Big Bad.
Dune - Paul Atreides
A few more I love: Milla Vane's A Gathering of Dragons, Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea Series, Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series, K.S. Villoso's Chronicles of the Bitch Queen, R.F. Kuang's Poppy War Trilogy, N.K. Jemisin's Inheritance Trilogy, Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.
"Let's begin with the biggest controversy of all--"
Me: What you're wearing?
I don't like it when the villain goes with the standard "You'll never defeat me because I have (insert name of powerful object or insert name of powerful person who the hero is close with)" and then while the villain is basking in their triumph, the hero's strength returns, they fight the villain and the villain is either defeated or something along those lines.
A ‘ragamaband’ group of oddballs in a dark fantasy series that all hate each other at the beginning and then they have to save the world and THEN realise they are the most important factor in each other’s lives is *chef’s kiss* perfection I die for a group of people who would die for each other
In Guards! Guards! The fantasy novel by Terry Pratchett, he makes hilarious fun of the chosen one/ secret royalty trope. It’s great. In fact he made fun of most tropes.
Everybody wants their own old wizard mentor! I know I do. Also, that's a strong aesthetic with the blazer and socks combo, props to you.
As far as the mortal vs god thing. It worked in The Illiad, Diomedes sticking it to Aphrodites AND Ares. Achilles fighting an entire river. But they were part of a story "written" before writing was invented. Legends can do that.
A legend written today would probably not be considered particularly legendary.
David Eddings books hold a special place in my heart but yes every trope is in them: chosen one, wise wizard, secret royalty, prophecy. All there. The Mallorean I think was better than The Belgariad, though (even though it is almost a retelling in some aspects).
As a writer myself, I'm totally against parma-killing characters. I know you might think it's petty and stupid, but the reason I'm against perma-death is because everyone expects me to do it. If someone tells me I have to write this or not write that, I'm going to do the exact opposite because I don't want others to dictate to me how I write.
But at the end of the day, I don't believe tropes themselves are good or bad, it's all in how you use them.
That's just as reactionary though?
"Or the evil guy start monologuing"
The final chapter of the Gunslinger in a nutshell.
My two favorite tropes are “Old man mentor” and “Grey characters” which makes all too much sense because my favorite character ever is Father Chains from the gentlemen bastards. A grey old mentor.
No prophecy of the Chosen one who end up becoming the dark lord?
Not sure if this technically a trope or maybe just a plot device, but I really hate time travel as the final "trick." As soon as you open that can of worms, any ending (happy or sad) doesn't feel real because it can always be changed later. It makes any existing stakes feel irrelevant.
You should keep reading the Belgariad!! It starts off feeling very traditional but becomes very self aware and mocking towards a lot of the traditional tropes
To be fair... I think Harry handled the chose one pretty well. Yes, he was the "star" but who doesn't consider Hermione far better? Or how Snape was one of the reasons Harry survived many times?? Even Neville killing the snake at the end. They left a lot of good things for other characters
Remember when Tolkien and even Eddings were writing these were not tropes at that time.
No ones pointing fingers at Tolkien for influencing modern fantasy.
I actually like the chosen one trope, but I get why people might not like it. If it just follows the old path of this person is the chosen one and they can't go wrong and will always win, it gets really boring and predictable. I like chosen one stories with some sort of twist on the trope, either the EXACT identity of the chosen one is unclear (like in ASOIAF), the chosen one isn't completely guaranteed to win (Avatar), the chosen one is just a person with an immense natural talent with some supernatural power and can definitely go wrong and make bad choices (Star Wars and Avatar), or the story explores the emotional nuances and implications of being the chosen one (Avatar).
if you want to read an actually good assassin book, meaning no overpowered edge lords, check out the Vlad Taltos books by Steven Brust. The worldbuilding is rather simple but very well explored, and the prose is so witty and light. A really fun read!
The Vlad books is Awesome. To be honest though, those aren't really assassin books. They are really just fantasy books that feature a character that has been known to do "work".
I'm not a big reader, I found this randomly. I have a lot of love for fantasy and storytelling.
But from what it sounds like, people want stories similar to those you usually end up with in D&D :D
Morally grey group of weirdos banding together to defeat a seemingly impossible enemy because they chose to do so
Pretty neat
i feel like 'hidden royalty' is actually good when the character has to actually deal with the fact that they have no political training and need help, but i general, yeah it's bad, but it's better when everybody is taken by surprise 80% of the way through, rather than knowing it the whole time
so... Question, do Secret Royalty and *Hidden* Royalty count as the same thing? I can agree with secret royalty where at the end the ol' guy pops up and says "oh by the way!" and hands over a crown. But *Hidden* Royalty opens up so many options. Whether its hiding there identity from main characters or society at large. :)
Just finished binging your channel for the third time this week.
I cannot imagine how much work you put into this videos. We are so incredibly fortunate to have the quantity AND quality. Thank you for these videos.
Resurrection is poop
Introducing your character as alive but never showing them in the flesh and having the person that knows them best never interact with them and get uncomfortable and change the topic whenever they come up and then eventually reveal they are dead
But you meet a character somewhere in the story that is awfully similar to the dead person in a subtle way such as name similarities and other things but they don't show up for more than a few seconds and then plant other clues that show the character that is supposedly alive then supposedly dead IS actually alive
That would be cool.
I have no idea what this would be called, but I can only think of it as "Depressed/traumatized protagonist with a smile". I find a characters rejection to address deeply routed trauma or attempt to put on a masquerade as a defense mechanism interesting methods to offer introspection into some darker and harder subject matters without getting too grim.
Maybe this can be a facade for something a bit more spiteful, like Wilder's Willy Wonka. While I know I've seen it with antagonists - Umbridge is a great example of this kind of disconnect - characters like Kelsier from Mistborn or Vash from Trigun are a few off the top of my head that I absolutely love that show what I mean.
Donut Sandwich Shallan from Stormlight is a great example of that. She has some serious issues, like she makes really lame, corny jokes as a defense mechanism to deal with her tragic past.
@@janhavi1977 yeah, that's a great example! I know that it's been used before, I just wished I knew what the hell to call the damned trope other than some form of "Smiling Depression"
Donut Sandwich haha, how about the protagonist with a mask?
Yes, I love this!!
@@janhavi1977 Sure - and for most conversations I think people will get that. I found something online called a "Stepford Smiler" which is closer to what I mentioned with Umbridge... I'm just worried that it could be reduced to something a lot more cliched, like the double-crossing "I was actually working for the dark lord the whole time" kinda deal, hence why I would enjoy protagonists in that type of role rather than an antagonist
0:29 those socks? I like them.
1:53 -"I- -want- -grinding- -protagonists- -who- -earn- -what- -they're- -coming- -to."-
-PHRASING!-
(Edit: never mind. It's just me, hearing things that weren't said after watching too much _Archer_ while in quarantine. )
Too much Archer does not exist
Aang is a chosen one everyone likes. It's not what you do, but how you do it. You don't even need to subvert things, just add some twists. Imagine if they succeeded on day of black sun. It would be way worse, that's classical fantasy, you take things on face value.
I love the chosen one trope actually, it's not essentially bad, I think just overdone for most people. Which it really is, isn't it? 😅
the false dwagon It’s actually one of my favorites if they do it in a new way
You are a Harry Potter fan in this case.
My problem with this particular trope isn't as much that I've already seen it a million times. It's just that so many authors get especially lazy with it.
"Why is your protagonist involved in the plot?"
"Uh, dunno. He was chosen by some prophecy, I guess."
If that is the extend of their character motivation, that's very, very cheap. I want something more. I want personal stakes. If you take the prophecy out of the story, the character still needs to have a reason to continue the fight. If they don't, I have no reason to care.
@@swagromancer I think that's pretty valid. I've not read as much as probably some others. I just love prophecies, there are many interesting developments with prophecies because often they don't come true exactly like you expect.
I do like the trope itself as it can be subverted in quite a few interesting ways but the execution of this trope we usually get is kinda boring.
I can’t believe magic schools was universally praised. When I watched this video, I was thinking to myself that the trope of teenagers going to a magic school to learn to use their powers has to be the absolutely worst trope of modern fantasy.