I can only comment on the 823,of which I have a and a . One day when cleaning the 823,as I was expelling the water the plunger refused to go all the way down. On closer inpection there was a small piece of plastic that(I think) was sucked up into the ink chamber from the feed. I don't do pen-repair. Sent the pen into Pilot USA where it was promptly repaired and returned to me,no charge. I did suffer pen-separation anxiety for a while. Upon further investigation with pen-repair people,I was told that in the older Pilot 823 the above problem was more common than more newly made 823;they have since rectified the problem. I would trade both my 823 pens for Pilot 743 models(I love the verdigris color 743 that Goulet has in stock!). The vacuum-filling system is just harder to maintain. When the plunger needs lubricated I will have to send it in to Pilot USA. Not good imho. I'm not taking apart the 823. Not likely I will ever own a MB 146;but,that is the model I think I would choose. Would love to try one out someday. I'd sooner have the 80's vintage with ebonite feed than a new one. This is not based on any first-hand knowledge on my part. For an everyday,workhorse pen,I'll choose the Lamy 2000 all day long. I can remove the nib/feed for cleaning and lube the piston for cleaning/maintenance without going against blatant warnings from the manufacturer/voiding a warranty,potentially causing damage etc. I think it's still a bargain at current prices. Thank you for the rodeo,Waski! Hope your bread turned out well.
I have an 80s 149 that I have been using since the late 80s. They say the “bird splatter” represents the top of the mountain for which the company was named.
Two great pens and I would take either one. In all honesty I was favouring the Montblanc when watching your writing test. Then I saw the feathering. The Pilot performed much better in that respect. Same paper, same ink, yet the Pilot had very little feathering. However, I would personally choose the 146 and use a different paper. This may seem like an odd comment but, to me, the ink looked more like a Smoky Quartz when delivered by the Montblanc. As they say in horse racing, this one was a "photo finish" and the 146 won it by a nose!
To be fair to the Pilot, it has been inked up with the Smoky Quartz for several weeks. The Montblanc was just filled this week for purposes of this video. So some of the darkness may be due to that. I like the Pilot better, but I'll also be using the Montblanc until I write it dry. Maybe it will grow on me?
Again, I have both the pens on this rodeo. I have rated and praised the PC 823 quite highly often enough. I need hardly rehash all that over again. I have the modern MB 146. I’m very fond of both these pens. Really classy, reliable and pleasurable writers. But, pressed to choose a winner, I certainly pick the MB 146. I prefer its overall aesthetics a little better. It feels even better in the hand than the 823. I like the piston filler more than the Vac-filler. Both pens are very tricky to repair, though. The M nib on my 146 both looks and writes much nicer than the M nib on my presently broken 823. I’ve always used my Montblanc pen much more than I did the Pilot. For the record, I like the MB 146 much more than the 149. And there are Pilot pens that I like much more than I do the 823 (e.g. Pilot Custom 845, Justus 95, Pilot Custom Urushi). Lastly, the price difference between the 146 and 823 is quite significant. So many pens are, arguably, very over-priced. On that count, I have to say the 146 is clearly more over priced than the 823 is. Still, if I could only have one, it is the MB 146. I’d say the rodeo I’d like to see is Aurora 88 vs MB 146. Both piston fillers and very comparably priced. And rodeo or not, I’m very curious to know your call on the PC 823 vs Justus 95.
It was close, but I had to give the edge to the 823 in this matchup. I think you're right about tricky repair. I believe the Montblanc requires special tools for access to its piston. The 88 vs 146 rodeo would be fun. Do you think my broad 88 or my flex 88 would be a better comparison? I enjoy the Justus 95. But it has just never struck me as a daily writer. If I'm doing a long session, I prefer the 823. I see the 95 more as a fun nib. It was on the 95 that I learned that I prefer the "hard" setting for mathematical or scientific notation. But I've also done some fun things with that nib. I guess when a nib gets too "fun" it starts to fail as a workhorse type pen.
@@WaskiSquirrel…I’m happy with either comparison, but maybe the (Flex-Fine ?) nib of the orange Aurora 88 would be a nicer face-off against the MB 146’s M nib. I get what you’re saying about the 823 v Justus 95 thing. I just prefer the Justus 95, mainly for the unique and fun nib, but also for the build, C/C filler against the Vac filler etc…I use both the hard and soft settings nearly equally. In any case, pen rodeo options abound. Some of your vintage pens could easily be entered into these contests. Yesterday, I was imagining my own rodeo match between the vintage Aurora 88 v Lamy 2000. I have yet to decide. 🙂
Great Rodeo, Waski! Here’s where I’m at….I own both pens. Interestingly enough, my 146 is exactly the same generation as yours with the same Med nib. My main collection interests are vintage flexible stub nibs, but I also like some modern pens. I’m a big fan of Pilot Fine nibs. I don’t prefer Pilots wider nib options because I feel they’re too smooth and I like pleasant feedback. Anyway, I digress….I purchased my 146 quite frankly, just for the experience of owning and using a modern-ish MB. I’m not a very big fan of their current offerings. I honestly planned to use it and then sell it…..that was several years ago haha. I absolutely LOVE the pen and nib! Mine is juicy and is a great writer, just as yours is. Here’s my thing with 823’s. I like them….a lot. I do not like that they’re so fragile. The 2 I own are both cracked and were like that when I purchased them(for quite the discount of course). I’ve babied them to keep using them but will eventually purchase a nib unit from flexible nib factory to put the #15 Pilot fines on other pens. I refuse to pay Pilots asking price to replace the barrel. Therein lies the main issue, to me anyway, with 823’s. As you say in the video, the tolerances are closer and as I mention above, they’re made from fragile material. A user should be able to reasonably take the pen apart to clean it. Especially since it’s a hard to clean vac filler. There’s an old proverb that states, “man who takes apart 823 has a broken fountain pen” lol So, to sum it up, the MB is the clear choice imho. The Pilot is a great pen to put one ink in forever. However, if you plan to ever take it apart, you’re asking for trouble and WILL eventually crack it. Just my $.02 Thanks for the great vids my friend🙏
You cited a major weakness of the 823: it really is easy to break, and this makes it difficult for the user to repair. Hopefully you have better luck with the nib on another pen: I'm assuming the 743?
@@WaskiSquirrel thank you! Flexible nib factory sells Jowo and Bock housings deigned to accept Pilot #15 nibs and feeds. I’ll put the nib in one of these housings and put it in a compatible pen. It would be pretty cool to have, say Franklin-Christoph, or a custom-maker pen, with this nib on it! We’ll see how it goes lol.
I have owned the 823 twice but have sold both. The 823 is a solid pen, a definite workhorse for sure. That being said, the maintenance of the pen is troublesome. Cleaning the pen is very time consuming with many fills and refills of water and/or pen flush. Waiting for the water to evaporate from the barrel can take days. But, I love Pilot nibs. In its place I bought a Custom 743. There are so many nib options with the 743 and maintenance is very quick in comparison. I cannot comment on the 146 as I do not own one but have tested one and it has a very nice writing feel. But the price...
I chose the 743 over the 823 for two reasons, to get a nib and a converter instead of vac fill. I believe Pilot is now importing 823's with nibs, so now you can take your choice. Personally I don't tolerate pens with stopper valves.
You're right about the cleaning of the 823. But then I don't mind if I miss a little ink. The 743 is a good option. I have one with an FA nib that is a lot of fun.
A lot of people say the older Montblancs are made from better materials. The nib on the M/Blanc looks more prestigious but I hear the medium on the 823 is really nice to write with.
I have to say the modern Montblanc pens (I own the 145, 146, and 149) are all very well made and the resin, fit and finish feel quality to the touch. I have no complaints. As for the nib, I will say that the gold nibs on modern Montblanc pens are allegedly quite finicky. According to many owners of the pens. For pens priced so high, that is a glaring flaw. And reason to pause before purchasing. Luckily, all three of mine turned out just fine. And the nibs look lovely. Not least owing to that two-tone finish I’ve always liked best. With Pilot, it is a rare occurrence to get a flawed nib out of the box on their premium pens like the 823. The M nib on the 823 is plenty nice. But I’d say that it’s also somewhat bland and lacking ‘character’ and nuance. For example, I really do prefer the feel of the writing of the nib on the Justus 95. That adjustable nib, on either setting, seems to have a distinct character to it, without sacrificing smoothness, reliability or consistency.
The Montblanc barrels are made of the same plastic. It's a "precious resin" that used to be found on a number of German pens. The feed has changed from ebonite to plastic. I haven't used the 823 medium, but I like the fine and the broad.
I hav a vintage 149 from 1985 with the split ebonite feed and "softer" nib (not a flex). It is on my desk all the time, I really love it. The draw back is that it's still expensive. It was on my Grail pen list for sometime, when I saw it come up, I had to get it. I would strongly recommend getting a used 149 because they are less expensive. I have seen them go for around $500. The 146 is smaller than the 149. I also have the 823 and like that one too. I got it for a lot less than the price that it's going for now. It is lovely and a fun pen to use. It is a different writing experience - It is a much stiffer pen but it is a smoother writer. Here is the thing - I don't recommend either of these pens to new fountain pen collectors who are on a budget. There are nice pens in the 100 -- 200 dollar price range that can help you to determine your next level, if you need to go to that next level. If you are on a budget -- and want to get a cool writing experience - I strongly recommend the Wingsung 699 (which is in the style of the 823) and the Jinhao X159 ( which is in the style of the Montblanc 149) . I happen to really like the Jinhao X159 because it allows you to experiment with pens and nibs. I love the #8 size nib because it's smooth and nice to write with. It will give you practice to smooth your own nibs. It is a very inexpensive pen (between 6 to 15 dollars depending on where you buy them) they also give you color choices, that are not remotely available in Montblanc..
It's interesting to see how pens have evolved, even since the 1980s. And you're right that vintage is the way to go with some of these really expensive pens. You are right that neither of these are for beginner collectors. I started out with low cost pens and I learned a lot about my pen preferences that way. The Pilot Custom 823 was one of my first "expensive" pens, and it was a great one. But, by then, I knew what I liked. The Wingsung 699 is a good pen. I did not have a good experience with the x159, but a lot of people did, so my experience may be a fluke.
@WaskiSquirrel The Jinhao X159 first and second run had QC problems with the nibs. I believe some of the resellers are testing the nibs before they go out. I haven't had a bad one. Yes I had to adjust the nib to my liking but they have all wrote. I have all of the colors plus several duplicates.
I have a late 80s MB 146 and it prevents me from getting similar pens like the Pilot 823 because I would rather have something different like a Lamy 2000. Mike Masuyama grinded my medium MB 146 to a 0.6 mm stub so now it writes like a fine with line variation and I like it much better.
Thanks for an excellent comparison, Jason. FWIW I suspect the Pilot would be easier to repair, because MBs require many specialized tools to service them. On the other hand the 146 has a lovely juicy nib Cheers from the Terror Australis.
That's not really true. The nib units screw out, and a piston removal wrench can be had for like $30. So it's not "many specialized tools." It's just one relatively cheap tool. That said, I'm not a Montblanc fan. They make good pens but are way overpriced with no justification other than the bird splat.
You are right about the need for specialized tools on the MB, but they really aren't that expensive. The Pilot is built in such a way that it tends to crack when repaired, and I do have a problem with that. ETA: I see @Inazarab commented with the same thing!
A fun rodeo -- hitting hard on the value equation. I have both (got a pretty good deal on new/old stock on the 146) and find them both quite nice pens --- but the MB is not, in my book, worth more than 3X the cost of the 823; even my good deal was ~ 2x the 823 price.
I have both pens and I do tend to choose the Pilot for long writing sessions. Last year I felt the plunger in the Pilot was very hard to push in, so I sent it to Pilot. I received it back a few weeks later and I wasn't charged anything for the maintenance.
Thanks for an excellent video. You've made some good points. I own both of these, and a modern 146 as well. I prefer the piston on the 146 - easier to clean. The fit and finish is much better than on the Pilot, and I prefer the design of the modern Mb nib. Overall, if I had to choose one I would pick the modern 146, even though it is more expensive to buy new. There are plenty of decent second hand 146 pens around, though, so you can probably buy one for much the same price as a new 823.
The 823 isn't a vacuum filler, but a plunger filler. The end of the rod holds a plunger that when pushed down pushes ink from the bottle into the barrel as the plunger goes down. Big difference! The vacuum filler uses suction to draw up ink into the barrel using a diaphragm and a push button.
The consensus among retailers and manufacturers is to call the 823 a vacuum filler. The other method was mostly in Parker pens and is usually called vacumatic.
@WaskiSquirrel I would not call it a vacuum filler just because those selling it call it that. There is a notable difference-- the vacuum filler literally sucked up the ink; the plunger filler uses a plunger( not a diaphragm)to push the ink into the barrel.......it doesn't suck up ink; it literally PUSHES the ink behind the flexible disc to fill the barrel. Just because the majority selling the model calls it that doesn't make it so.
Ha,ha,now that yesterday I received a “hard copy” on Tomoe, writing samples from both these pens with E Smokey Quartz I decided I needed to comment on this Rodeo. Great comparison thanks for the work you put into it. While both these pens feature the 2 top filling systems for me, vac fil, #1, and piston (preferably by Pelikan) # 2, I wouldn’t rush out and purchase either. For me Both are rather non descriptive traditional looking pens. I am one of those who does not do demonstrators, so if forced to decide I would pick the MB 146. Looking carefully at the writing samples in my hand, I cannot see much of a difference. If any thing the MB, M seemed a tiny bit wider an wetter than the Pilot B, The MB, M more like a Japanese B, and the Pilot B more like a Euro M. What is it about modern vac fillers with the threaded rods? I have a 1930s Eversharp, a 30s Sheaffer and 40s Sheaffer; all in regular rotation no threaded and unthreading other Than to fill or empty. They have never blobbed or dumped ink into the cap, nor interrupted my writing session to unthread the rod. Reminder: I still have 2 bottles of my not fav brown, heh,heh,say the word and one or both will be on the way to you.
They are definitely very traditional! Of course, I leaned toward the Pilot, but these are both nice writers. And it was close. I don't need any more brown ink, but thank you for thinking of me!
I even ask the question, is the 823 worth 2x the price of the Custom 74? I have a 74 and like it a lot (best nib I own). But twice as nice of a writing experience with the 823? Hard to imagine. Yes, it's bigger and slightly different, but how it writes per dollar value is the basic equation that drives (and controls) most of my spending.anyway, Ive never held either of these pens 8n this rodeo, so I appreciate the comparison.
Is the fountain pen world ready for an answer to this question? No. And, to be clear, I don't own a 74 anymore, but I do own a 92, which is the same nib. My 74 actually fell apart, but that was when dropped. But the nib is really nice. I actually prefer the feeling of the broad nib on the 74/92. I prefer the feeling of the fine nib on the 823. Hard to say if it's worth the additional cost. After all, like I said in the video, I prefer the Lamy 2000 fine. But it's worth noting that I kept my 823 in fine and traded my 74 with a fine nib. I also switched the fine nib in my 92 with the broad nib in my 74 to keep the broad in the 92. That broad nib is fun! So, probably a more nuanced answer than you wanted. The 823 F is better. I struggle to say if it is worth the additional $, especially when it competes against the Lamy 2000 or the Parker Sonnet. No question that the 92/74 broad is better than the 823 B. You might notice that the 146 never entered this discussion. Fun nib, but the one on the 92/74 is even more fun. And, at the price I paid, the prices were close.
Thank you! Good video! I think they are equally good. I have both and find them great writers. It is really about personal preferences. Do you like value for money? A harder to attain pen? Being so equal in performance you just come down to the emotional state you are in when making the decision, I think. That is why you and so many others (like me) get both :) Rationale says go with the Pilot if you are looking for an excellent writing instrument, and nothing else. See you next time :)
I'm glad you appreciated this. And, you are right about personal preference. So much of this is really personal, and not objective at all. (Thought price is pretty objective). You're right: I'm guilty of coming down on both sides. I have both!
I don't have any and wonder if Sailor Realo could fit in this rodeo but it's ok if you probably had or don't like the Realo. I'm kind of Pilot's nibs fan so maybe one day I buy an 823. Thank you 🐿️
The Sailor Realo is priced between these pens. I bought one many years ago. It has been many years since I've used it. It wasn't a bad pen. It just wasn't anything special.
kThe Pilot can be disassembled, but Pilot says don't, and removing section or back vac stuff can and sometimes does cause cracking (I think there is some glue used in assembly). Nevertheless, some plea-lie are comfortable doing this. I'm not. OTOH, I had a very bad experience with Montblanc customer server about 20 years ago. Again OTOH, I have both the 146 and 823 and I like both. I really like the Pilot 743, which is a cartridge/converter twin of of 823, especially since it is available in my favorite Pilot nib, the WA Waverly nib. But the 823 is a pen I would bring on a plane, since it has a cutoff valve.
The cracking is my concern with disassembling the Pilot. I have pulled the nib once or twice, but that's it. The 743 is a good pen too! I have one with an FA nib. It's a lot of fun, but not so good for daily use.
I own the Pilot 823 B and MB 146 M and MB 146 B Both great pens. For me the nib on the 823 is almost too smooth, lacking character. I prefer the feel of the MB nib. Furthermore, there is a a feeling to using the MB that I prefer that I really cannot truly explain. I think Hemingway Jones said the same thing in his comparison of the MB 149 to the Pilot 823. MB seems to have struck a sensual chord that appeals to fountain pen people to the extent that it enables them to charge what they do. Their pens just feel luxurious, just feel better.. Isn't that a large part of what it's about when you buy an expensive pen? Finally I hate to criticize you but the fact that you call their logo a "bird splat" is indicates you have a prejudice against Montblanc. Their logo represents the snow top of Montblanc and you call their logo excrement. Other than that you are usually spot on in your reviews
I had a hard time picking a best in this video, and I hated to end it on a "I don't know, whatever you like." I see the 823 like my Toyota Camry: boring, but very reliable, with great engineering. But it's stuck with an exotic sports car filling mechanism. The 146 is more a sports car in writing with a more pedestrian filling mechanism. When I drive in my regular life, I just want reliable transportation. When I drive somewhere fun, maybe a more exotic car would be more fun. That's why I'll pick the 823 for a long term writing session. The 146 is better for a page in a pen pal letter. I do typically call the logo a "bird splat" and I do know what it represents. I actually don't find their logo attractive. On older pens where it was just an outline rather than the white, I think it looks a lot better. And I am a big fan of vintage Montblanc pens: I own quite a few. The modern ones just leave me cold. The 149 is too thick, and I scratched my itch for a 146 with this beauty from the 1980s. Some of their writer's editions are interesting, but not enough interesting for me to buy one. If I buy a pen at the price of most Montblanc pens, I'm more likely to go for a Nakaya or a Platinum Izumo. Just my personal preference.
I am going to have to disagree with you. For those who care about prestige, the Mont Blanc (with the bird splat) is superior. People see that "bird splat" in your pocket and they have a definite impression. Now, I am with you, the price difference is pure prestige, pure name recognition and for me, never worth the price difference. I once asked about the difference between a Mont Blanc and my Watermans and I was told they were both good pens, but Waterman is good value. I do not like Piston fillers, preferring cartridge converters. I am very happy with my Pilot Prera and have thought about the Pilot 743. I am not fond of the Pilot Metropolitan though. Enjoy your Summer, enjoy writing with your Pilot and leave the Mont Blanc for days when you want prestige.
Honestly, where I live, the "bird splat" wouldn't mean anything. I know what it means, but it's not an area where Montblanc is a known brand for pens, fashion, or whatever else they make. The nice thing about a cartridge/converter is that they are so easy to clean out. Both of these pens are more difficult to clean.
@@WaskiSquirrel But I am going to suggest in Minot or Bismark or Fargo, it would be known and the person with one would be seen differently. Please feel free to prove me wrong. And I completely agree with you about the cartridge converter, easier to clean and easier to refill. Enjoy your classes.
But we should consider the price also; 823 is almost half the price of 146 and yet it competes very well with 146/149. The pilot Urushi is the right comparison of 149 as far as price is concerned. But urushi is very meticulously hand painted n Montblanc is "precious resin" called plastic. 😂 I don't know why Montblanc is so overpriced.
You're probably right about price. If you see a Montblanc on my channel, it's used, so I paid about the same price for this one as for the 823. I agree that urushi and plastic do not compare at all!
I can only comment on the 823,of which I have a and a . One day when cleaning the 823,as I was expelling the water the plunger refused to go all the way down. On closer inpection there was a small piece of plastic that(I think) was sucked up into the ink chamber from the feed. I don't do pen-repair. Sent the pen into Pilot USA where it was promptly repaired and returned to me,no charge. I did suffer pen-separation anxiety for a while.
Upon further investigation with pen-repair people,I was told that in the older Pilot 823 the above problem was more common than more newly made 823;they have since rectified the problem. I would trade both my 823 pens for Pilot 743 models(I love the verdigris color 743 that Goulet has in stock!). The vacuum-filling system is just harder to maintain. When the plunger needs lubricated I will have to send it in to Pilot USA. Not good imho. I'm not taking apart the 823.
Not likely I will ever own a MB 146;but,that is the model I think I would choose. Would love to try one out someday. I'd sooner have the 80's vintage with ebonite feed than a new one. This is not based on any first-hand knowledge on my part.
For an everyday,workhorse pen,I'll choose the Lamy 2000 all day long. I can remove the nib/feed for cleaning and lube the piston for cleaning/maintenance without going against blatant warnings from the manufacturer/voiding a warranty,potentially causing damage etc.
I think it's still a bargain at current prices.
Thank you for the rodeo,Waski! Hope your bread turned out well.
I'm glad to hear that Pilot has such good service. I haven't had to use their service, so I always worry about this side of it.
I have an 80s 149 that I have been using since the late 80s. They say the “bird splatter” represents the top of the mountain for which the company was named.
That is exactly what the "bird splat" represents. I just think the name "bird splat" is funny, so I use it when possible.
Two great pens and I would take either one. In all honesty I was favouring the Montblanc when watching your writing test. Then I saw the feathering. The Pilot performed much better in that respect. Same paper, same ink, yet the Pilot had very little feathering. However, I would personally choose the 146 and use a different paper. This may seem like an odd comment but, to me, the ink looked more like a Smoky Quartz when delivered by the Montblanc. As they say in horse racing, this one was a "photo finish" and the 146 won it by a nose!
To be fair to the Pilot, it has been inked up with the Smoky Quartz for several weeks. The Montblanc was just filled this week for purposes of this video. So some of the darkness may be due to that. I like the Pilot better, but I'll also be using the Montblanc until I write it dry. Maybe it will grow on me?
Again, I have both the pens on this rodeo.
I have rated and praised the PC 823 quite highly often enough.
I need hardly rehash all that over again.
I have the modern MB 146.
I’m very fond of both these pens. Really classy, reliable and pleasurable writers. But, pressed to choose a winner, I certainly pick the MB 146. I prefer its overall aesthetics a little better. It feels even better in the hand than the 823. I like the piston filler more than the Vac-filler. Both pens are very tricky to repair, though. The M nib on my 146 both looks and writes much nicer than the M nib on my presently broken 823. I’ve always used my Montblanc pen much more than I did the Pilot.
For the record, I like the MB 146 much more than the 149. And there are Pilot pens that I like much more than I do the 823 (e.g. Pilot Custom 845, Justus 95, Pilot Custom Urushi).
Lastly, the price difference between the 146 and 823 is quite significant. So many pens are, arguably, very over-priced. On that count, I have to say the 146 is clearly more over priced than the 823 is. Still, if I could only have one, it is the MB 146.
I’d say the rodeo I’d like to see is Aurora 88 vs MB 146. Both piston fillers and very comparably priced.
And rodeo or not, I’m very curious to know your call on the PC 823 vs Justus 95.
It was close, but I had to give the edge to the 823 in this matchup. I think you're right about tricky repair. I believe the Montblanc requires special tools for access to its piston.
The 88 vs 146 rodeo would be fun. Do you think my broad 88 or my flex 88 would be a better comparison?
I enjoy the Justus 95. But it has just never struck me as a daily writer. If I'm doing a long session, I prefer the 823. I see the 95 more as a fun nib. It was on the 95 that I learned that I prefer the "hard" setting for mathematical or scientific notation. But I've also done some fun things with that nib. I guess when a nib gets too "fun" it starts to fail as a workhorse type pen.
@@WaskiSquirrel…I’m happy with either comparison, but maybe the (Flex-Fine ?) nib of the orange Aurora 88 would be a nicer face-off against the MB 146’s M nib.
I get what you’re saying about the 823 v Justus 95 thing. I just prefer the Justus 95, mainly for the unique and fun nib, but also for the build, C/C filler against the Vac filler etc…I use both the hard and soft settings nearly equally.
In any case, pen rodeo options abound. Some of your vintage pens could easily be entered into these contests.
Yesterday, I was imagining my own rodeo match between the vintage Aurora 88 v Lamy 2000. I have yet to decide. 🙂
Great Rodeo, Waski!
Here’s where I’m at….I own both pens. Interestingly enough, my 146 is exactly the same generation as yours with the same Med nib. My main collection interests are vintage flexible stub nibs, but I also like some modern pens. I’m a big fan of Pilot Fine nibs. I don’t prefer Pilots wider nib options because I feel they’re too smooth and I like pleasant feedback. Anyway, I digress….I purchased my 146 quite frankly, just for the experience of owning and using a modern-ish MB. I’m not a very big fan of their current offerings. I honestly planned to use it and then sell it…..that was several years ago haha. I absolutely LOVE the pen and nib! Mine is juicy and is a great writer, just as yours is.
Here’s my thing with 823’s. I like them….a lot. I do not like that they’re so fragile. The 2 I own are both cracked and were like that when I purchased them(for quite the discount of course). I’ve babied them to keep using them but will eventually purchase a nib unit from flexible nib factory to put the #15 Pilot fines on other pens. I refuse to pay Pilots asking price to replace the barrel. Therein lies the main issue, to me anyway, with 823’s. As you say in the video, the tolerances are closer and as I mention above, they’re made from fragile material. A user should be able to reasonably take the pen apart to clean it. Especially since it’s a hard to clean vac filler. There’s an old proverb that states, “man who takes apart 823 has a broken fountain pen” lol
So, to sum it up, the MB is the clear choice imho. The Pilot is a great pen to put one ink in forever. However, if you plan to ever take it apart, you’re asking for trouble and WILL eventually crack it. Just my $.02
Thanks for the great vids my friend🙏
You cited a major weakness of the 823: it really is easy to break, and this makes it difficult for the user to repair. Hopefully you have better luck with the nib on another pen: I'm assuming the 743?
@@WaskiSquirrel thank you! Flexible nib factory sells Jowo and Bock housings deigned to accept Pilot #15 nibs and feeds. I’ll put the nib in one of these housings and put it in a compatible pen. It would be pretty cool to have, say Franklin-Christoph, or a custom-maker pen, with this nib on it! We’ll see how it goes lol.
I have owned the 823 twice but have sold both. The 823 is a solid pen, a definite workhorse for sure. That being said, the maintenance of the pen is troublesome. Cleaning the pen is very time consuming with many fills and refills of water and/or pen flush. Waiting for the water to evaporate from the barrel can take days. But, I love Pilot nibs. In its place I bought a Custom 743. There are so many nib options with the 743 and maintenance is very quick in comparison.
I cannot comment on the 146 as I do not own one but have tested one and it has a very nice writing feel. But the price...
I chose the 743 over the 823 for two reasons, to get a nib and a converter instead of vac fill. I believe Pilot is now importing 823's with nibs, so now you can take your choice. Personally I don't tolerate pens with stopper valves.
@@ichirofakename my 743 has a SF nib.
You're right about the cleaning of the 823. But then I don't mind if I miss a little ink. The 743 is a good option. I have one with an FA nib that is a lot of fun.
Great to see you back and looking well. 👍🏼
Feeling great today!
A lot of people say the older Montblancs are made from better materials. The nib on the M/Blanc looks more prestigious but I hear the medium on the 823 is really nice to write with.
I have to say the modern Montblanc pens (I own the 145, 146, and 149) are all very well made and the resin, fit and finish feel quality to the touch. I have no complaints.
As for the nib, I will say that the gold nibs on modern Montblanc pens are allegedly quite finicky. According to many owners of the pens. For pens priced so high, that is a glaring flaw. And reason to pause before purchasing. Luckily, all three of mine turned out just fine. And the nibs look lovely. Not least owing to that two-tone finish I’ve always liked best.
With Pilot, it is a rare occurrence to get a flawed nib out of the box on their premium pens like the 823.
The M nib on the 823 is plenty nice. But I’d say that it’s also somewhat bland and lacking ‘character’ and nuance. For example, I really do prefer the feel of the writing of the nib on the Justus 95. That adjustable nib, on either setting, seems to have a distinct character to it, without sacrificing smoothness, reliability or consistency.
The Montblanc barrels are made of the same plastic. It's a "precious resin" that used to be found on a number of German pens. The feed has changed from ebonite to plastic.
I haven't used the 823 medium, but I like the fine and the broad.
I hav a vintage 149 from 1985 with the split ebonite feed and "softer" nib (not a flex). It is on my desk all the time, I really love it. The draw back is that it's still expensive. It was on my Grail pen list for sometime, when I saw it come up, I had to get it. I would strongly recommend getting a used 149 because they are less expensive. I have seen them go for around $500. The 146 is smaller than the 149.
I also have the 823 and like that one too. I got it for a lot less than the price that it's going for now. It is lovely and a fun pen to use. It is a different writing experience - It is a much stiffer pen but it is a smoother writer.
Here is the thing - I don't recommend either of these pens to new fountain pen collectors who are on a budget. There are nice pens in the 100 -- 200 dollar price range that can help you to determine your next level, if you need to go to that next level.
If you are on a budget -- and want to get a cool writing experience - I strongly recommend the Wingsung 699 (which is in the style of the 823) and the Jinhao X159 ( which is in the style of the Montblanc 149) . I happen to really like the Jinhao X159 because it allows you to experiment with pens and nibs. I love the #8 size nib because it's smooth and nice to write with. It will give you practice to smooth your own nibs. It is a very inexpensive pen (between 6 to 15 dollars depending on where you buy them) they also give you color choices, that are not remotely available in Montblanc..
It's interesting to see how pens have evolved, even since the 1980s. And you're right that vintage is the way to go with some of these really expensive pens.
You are right that neither of these are for beginner collectors. I started out with low cost pens and I learned a lot about my pen preferences that way. The Pilot Custom 823 was one of my first "expensive" pens, and it was a great one. But, by then, I knew what I liked.
The Wingsung 699 is a good pen. I did not have a good experience with the x159, but a lot of people did, so my experience may be a fluke.
@WaskiSquirrel The Jinhao X159 first and second run had QC problems with the nibs. I believe some of the resellers are testing the nibs before they go out. I haven't had a bad one. Yes I had to adjust the nib to my liking but they have all wrote. I have all of the colors plus several duplicates.
I have a late 80s MB 146 and it prevents me from getting similar pens like the Pilot 823 because I would rather have something different like a Lamy 2000. Mike Masuyama grinded my medium MB 146 to a 0.6 mm stub so now it writes like a fine with line variation and I like it much better.
It sounds like you have created a MB 146 that is perfect for your needs. Hard to compete with that!
Thanks for an excellent comparison, Jason. FWIW I suspect the Pilot would be easier to repair, because MBs require many specialized tools to service them. On the other hand the 146 has a lovely juicy nib Cheers from the Terror Australis.
That's not really true. The nib units screw out, and a piston removal wrench can be had for like $30. So it's not "many specialized tools." It's just one relatively cheap tool. That said, I'm not a Montblanc fan. They make good pens but are way overpriced with no justification other than the bird splat.
You are right about the need for specialized tools on the MB, but they really aren't that expensive. The Pilot is built in such a way that it tends to crack when repaired, and I do have a problem with that.
ETA: I see @Inazarab commented with the same thing!
A fun rodeo -- hitting hard on the value equation. I have both (got a pretty good deal on new/old stock on the 146) and find them both quite nice pens --- but the MB is not, in my book, worth more than 3X the cost of the 823; even my good deal was ~ 2x the 823 price.
I agree: if these pens were the same price, I would struggle a lot more. The MB carries quite a premium for the bird splat.
I have both pens and I do tend to choose the Pilot for long writing sessions. Last year I felt the plunger in the Pilot was very hard to push in, so I sent it to Pilot. I received it back a few weeks later and I wasn't charged anything for the maintenance.
I'm glad to hear that Pilot gives good service. This is one thing that scares me about this model.
Thanks for an excellent video. You've made some good points. I own both of these, and a modern 146 as well. I prefer the piston on the 146 - easier to clean. The fit and finish is much better than on the Pilot, and I prefer the design of the modern Mb nib. Overall, if I had to choose one I would pick the modern 146, even though it is more expensive to buy new. There are plenty of decent second hand 146 pens around, though, so you can probably buy one for much the same price as a new 823.
I think they're both good pens. And you're right: a second hand 146 is much more affordable. That's how I got mine!
The 823 isn't a vacuum filler, but a plunger filler. The end of the rod holds a plunger that when pushed down pushes ink from the bottle into the barrel as the plunger goes down. Big difference! The vacuum filler uses suction to draw up ink into the barrel using a diaphragm and a push button.
The consensus among retailers and manufacturers is to call the 823 a vacuum filler. The other method was mostly in Parker pens and is usually called vacumatic.
@WaskiSquirrel I would not call it a vacuum filler just because those selling it call it that. There is a notable difference-- the vacuum filler literally sucked up the ink; the plunger filler uses a plunger( not a diaphragm)to push the ink into the barrel.......it doesn't suck up ink; it literally PUSHES the ink behind the flexible disc to fill the barrel. Just because the majority selling the model calls it that doesn't make it so.
Both great pens! Thanks for the video.
Indeed! I had to think in order to come up with a winner...
Ha,ha,now that yesterday I received a “hard copy” on Tomoe, writing samples from both these pens with E Smokey Quartz I decided I needed to comment on this Rodeo. Great comparison thanks for the work you put into it. While both these pens feature the 2 top filling systems for me, vac fil, #1, and piston (preferably by Pelikan) # 2, I wouldn’t rush out and purchase either. For me Both are rather non descriptive traditional looking pens. I am one of those who does not do demonstrators, so if forced to decide I would pick the MB 146. Looking carefully at the writing samples in my hand, I cannot see much of a difference. If any thing the MB, M seemed a tiny bit wider an wetter than the Pilot B, The MB, M more like a Japanese B, and the Pilot B more like a Euro M. What is it about modern vac fillers with the threaded rods? I have a 1930s Eversharp, a 30s Sheaffer and 40s Sheaffer; all in regular rotation no threaded and unthreading other Than to fill or empty. They have never blobbed or dumped ink into the cap, nor interrupted my writing session to unthread the rod. Reminder: I still have 2 bottles of my not fav brown, heh,heh,say the word and one or both will be on the way to you.
They are definitely very traditional! Of course, I leaned toward the Pilot, but these are both nice writers. And it was close.
I don't need any more brown ink, but thank you for thinking of me!
I even ask the question, is the 823 worth 2x the price of the Custom 74? I have a 74 and like it a lot (best nib I own). But twice as nice of a writing experience with the 823? Hard to imagine. Yes, it's bigger and slightly different, but how it writes per dollar value is the basic equation that drives (and controls) most of my spending.anyway, Ive never held either of these pens 8n this rodeo, so I appreciate the comparison.
Is the fountain pen world ready for an answer to this question? No.
And, to be clear, I don't own a 74 anymore, but I do own a 92, which is the same nib. My 74 actually fell apart, but that was when dropped. But the nib is really nice. I actually prefer the feeling of the broad nib on the 74/92. I prefer the feeling of the fine nib on the 823. Hard to say if it's worth the additional cost. After all, like I said in the video, I prefer the Lamy 2000 fine. But it's worth noting that I kept my 823 in fine and traded my 74 with a fine nib. I also switched the fine nib in my 92 with the broad nib in my 74 to keep the broad in the 92. That broad nib is fun!
So, probably a more nuanced answer than you wanted. The 823 F is better. I struggle to say if it is worth the additional $, especially when it competes against the Lamy 2000 or the Parker Sonnet. No question that the 92/74 broad is better than the 823 B.
You might notice that the 146 never entered this discussion. Fun nib, but the one on the 92/74 is even more fun. And, at the price I paid, the prices were close.
@@WaskiSquirrel We all benefit from hearing about your pen experiences, Waski!
i love my 823 more than 146. the nib and the material the feels better.
The Pilot is definitely the better pen!
Thank you! Good video! I think they are equally good. I have both and find them great writers. It is really about personal preferences. Do you like value for money? A harder to attain pen? Being so equal in performance you just come down to the emotional state you are in when making the decision, I think. That is why you and so many others (like me) get both :) Rationale says go with the Pilot if you are looking for an excellent writing instrument, and nothing else.
See you next time :)
I'm glad you appreciated this. And, you are right about personal preference. So much of this is really personal, and not objective at all. (Thought price is pretty objective).
You're right: I'm guilty of coming down on both sides. I have both!
I don't have any and wonder if Sailor Realo could fit in this rodeo but it's ok if you probably had or don't like the Realo. I'm kind of Pilot's nibs fan so maybe one day I buy an 823. Thank you 🐿️
The Sailor Realo is priced between these pens. I bought one many years ago. It has been many years since I've used it. It wasn't a bad pen. It just wasn't anything special.
kThe Pilot can be disassembled, but Pilot says don't, and removing section or back vac stuff can and sometimes does cause cracking (I think there is some glue used in assembly). Nevertheless, some plea-lie are comfortable doing this. I'm not. OTOH, I had a very bad experience with Montblanc customer server about 20 years ago. Again OTOH, I have both the 146 and 823 and I like both. I really like the Pilot 743, which is a cartridge/converter twin of of 823, especially since it is available in my favorite Pilot nib, the WA Waverly nib. But the 823 is a pen I would bring on a plane, since it has a cutoff valve.
The cracking is my concern with disassembling the Pilot. I have pulled the nib once or twice, but that's it.
The 743 is a good pen too! I have one with an FA nib. It's a lot of fun, but not so good for daily use.
If you own a Pilot 823 and a Lamy 2000, do you really need any other pens?
Honestly, one pen is enough. But I do enjoy my variety of vintage pens and nibs.
I own the Pilot 823 B and MB 146 M and MB 146 B Both great pens. For me the nib on the 823 is almost too smooth, lacking character. I prefer the feel of the MB nib. Furthermore, there is a a feeling to using the MB that I prefer that I really cannot truly explain. I think Hemingway Jones said the same thing in his comparison of the MB 149 to the Pilot 823. MB seems to have struck a sensual chord that appeals to fountain pen people to the extent that it enables them to charge what they do. Their pens just feel luxurious, just feel better.. Isn't that a large part of what it's about when you buy an expensive pen?
Finally I hate to criticize you but the fact that you call their logo a "bird splat" is indicates you have a prejudice against Montblanc. Their logo represents the snow top of Montblanc and you call their logo excrement. Other than that you are usually spot on in your reviews
I had a hard time picking a best in this video, and I hated to end it on a "I don't know, whatever you like." I see the 823 like my Toyota Camry: boring, but very reliable, with great engineering. But it's stuck with an exotic sports car filling mechanism. The 146 is more a sports car in writing with a more pedestrian filling mechanism. When I drive in my regular life, I just want reliable transportation. When I drive somewhere fun, maybe a more exotic car would be more fun. That's why I'll pick the 823 for a long term writing session. The 146 is better for a page in a pen pal letter.
I do typically call the logo a "bird splat" and I do know what it represents. I actually don't find their logo attractive. On older pens where it was just an outline rather than the white, I think it looks a lot better. And I am a big fan of vintage Montblanc pens: I own quite a few. The modern ones just leave me cold. The 149 is too thick, and I scratched my itch for a 146 with this beauty from the 1980s. Some of their writer's editions are interesting, but not enough interesting for me to buy one. If I buy a pen at the price of most Montblanc pens, I'm more likely to go for a Nakaya or a Platinum Izumo. Just my personal preference.
I am going to have to disagree with you. For those who care about prestige, the Mont Blanc (with the bird splat) is superior. People see that "bird splat" in your pocket and they have a definite impression. Now, I am with you, the price difference is pure prestige, pure name recognition and for me, never worth the price difference. I once asked about the difference between a Mont Blanc and my Watermans and I was told they were both good pens, but Waterman is good value. I do not like Piston fillers, preferring cartridge converters. I am very happy with my Pilot Prera and have thought about the Pilot 743. I am not fond of the Pilot Metropolitan though. Enjoy your Summer, enjoy writing with your Pilot and leave the Mont Blanc for days when you want prestige.
If you like Pilot nibs, I can highly recommend the 743. I have the nib.
Honestly, where I live, the "bird splat" wouldn't mean anything. I know what it means, but it's not an area where Montblanc is a known brand for pens, fashion, or whatever else they make.
The nice thing about a cartridge/converter is that they are so easy to clean out. Both of these pens are more difficult to clean.
@@WaskiSquirrel I also prefer converters because they are trivial and cheap to replace if they break, the opposite of most piston fillers.
@@WaskiSquirrel But I am going to suggest in Minot or Bismark or Fargo, it would be known and the person with one would be seen differently. Please feel free to prove me wrong. And I completely agree with you about the cartridge converter, easier to clean and easier to refill. Enjoy your classes.
@@ichirofakename While piston fillers are fun, this is definitely their Achilles heel!
But we should consider the price also; 823 is almost half the price of 146 and yet it competes very well with 146/149.
The pilot Urushi is the right comparison of 149 as far as price is concerned. But urushi is very meticulously hand painted n Montblanc is "precious resin" called plastic. 😂
I don't know why Montblanc is so overpriced.
You're probably right about price. If you see a Montblanc on my channel, it's used, so I paid about the same price for this one as for the 823. I agree that urushi and plastic do not compare at all!