What striked me as really f-d up, is that you opened up your phone and shown him a website that looked like the TSA's and he accepted it as authorative without really checking. That's hardcore social engineering there.
There's two possibility I can see here. first he actually could of gone and checked. think about it for a moment as Ollam has mentioned that the idea that those knifes would have enough metal in them to be a problem is pretty silly and he's right. But it is a way the Supervisor could excuse himself from the situation with out implying that he didn't trust the claims Ollam was making. then once out of sight, perhaps as the plastic knifes are running though the machine which he does fully expect to come up negative, he pulls out his own phone goes to the real site and checks it out for himself, finding that it really does say that, he grabs the knifes and brings them back and lets him keep them because he did check and found Ollam was being honest. Doing it this way he can keep up the appearance that he trusted him the whole time, and prevent any further escalation from happening while also going and properly verifying the claim. or the other possibility could be that the supervisor also believes the knifes would be safe and it's really only on a technicality that he has to take them and in a situation like, where he can even see the url up top is set to the correct url then further scrutiny is not needed in this instance but in different situation where he thinks there's the possibility of actual danger to let the item through he'd give it closer scrutiny then.
That's the fun kind of social engineering. Editing HTML tags to change prices and stock counts for price matching was all the rage before smartphones were in everyone's pockets.
Never underestimate the power of humble words and expressions, almost regardless of what you’re actually using them for. I totally agree the supervisor is a diamond in the rough, but 99% of his day is silly power struggles be it passengers, employees, his bosses, etc. and our boy approached him like “it’s your show, I’ll do whatever you want, but..”.
@@JV-pu8kx The glassware is probably more dangerous as well. Shard of glass + tape or string + stick like object for handle = homemade knife-like object.
It's a classic clash of policies. Right after 9/11, you would get a metal spoon and fork with your meal, but a flimsy white plastic knife (think cheap fast food quality). As we have gotten further and further away from 9/11, airline policies have changed such that now you will get all metal cutlery on some flights on some airlines, but the TSA has remained tied to the early post-911 policies. I did a lot of traveling pre-911 and had more than a few frequent flyer upgrades to first class. My memory is a little fuzzy from those days, but I'm pretty sure that even then, the knives had rounded tips and mild serrations
The inconsistent application / knowledge of the rules is the biggest complaint I have with TSA agents. Years ago, my carry on backpack kept getting flagged for supplemental screening. They would check it over and over again at multiple airports, find nothing, and let me proceed. In San Antonio, I finally begged them to keep looking until they found whatever it was that was causing concern. Turned out to be a micro sized screwdriver that was in a pen pocket. It had slipped down inside and was so small you couldn't even see it. The guy admitted it was fully acceptable to travel with, but I ended up removing it once I got home so that I wouldn't get delayed at screening ever again.
Similar thing with me. I am TSA Precheck only very rarely getting flagged for additional screening, then my bag started getting secondary screened everytime I go through TSA. After maybe the 4th or 5th time in a row I ask what's causing the flag, since they never found or said what the issue was. They something like natural fibers between layers of electronics. A few weeks earlier I had got a mobile external monitor for my laptop (think large iPad size) and when packing my bag I always do it the same way, laptop then notebook then monitor. So my next trip I pack laptop then monitor then notebook and I have not been flagged for secondary since about a year ago.
I had something similar once. When I was a computer tech, I carried a very small Gerber multi-tool. I got used to the muscle memory of just throwing it in my pocket for the day. Well I did that on a day that I was going to travel with my in-laws and got stopped at the check in. The guy that stopped me showed me this regulation about "length of the blade". Except the blade was inside the length requirements, he was including the length of the blade plus the body of the multitool. I pointed this out to him and he measured again, grunted angrily then said "I'm not letting you on with this. Do you want me to ship it back to your house? It will cost 30 dollars". This was like a 20 dollar multitool that I got on sale somewhere for 15. Like i said, it was a small EDC thing for when I need to cut a zip tie in a pinch while under a desk, or tighten a screw on a computer case. I had my in-laws stomping angrily in the corner of my vision so I just told him to keep it and walked off. It always seems these situations happen when I'm traveling with my in-laws too. Curse of the universe I guess. Like when I discovered Disneyworld required my fingerprint to get into the park, AT THE GATE.
That same thing, exactly, happened to me on a multi-country trip through Europe. Nobody said anything to me until the Munich airport, where I got the full treatment (swabs, pat downs, etc.) They were nothing but kind during the whole process, and happily let me keep the screwdriver for adjusting my glasses once they knew it wasn’t a weapon. Strange to know this exact situation has happened to other people!
Reminds me of a random tip I heard somewhere (and is pretty much the same idea as what you said) was that the best way to get someone to admit they're wrong is to make sure they don't feel like you'll shame or belittle them if they do. So those people who angrily ask to see the manager and get all up in their face only dig themselves deeper. Whereas giving the person lots of 'outs' can go a long way - something like, "I mean look it's totally understandable", or even "Yea I didn't even know it until recently'. Also the best way I've ever heard someone 'ask to see the manager' is they instead said "could you introduce me to the manager" lol.
Used to be that way, something happened around the time I turned 50, I don’t have enough time left in life to deal with others’ stupidity. Get a brain, buy a clue, I don’t care, just shut up and get out of my way.
If anything this worked far too well on this TSA agent, for all he knows deviant could have used inspect element to edit the page (something that would have taken just a few seconds). Instead the dude just trusted deviant even though it would have taken just a few seconds to verify that the website said what it did.
It is important to have the correct professional bearing. If the agents think you might be an auditor, or someone who has the ability to talk to their supervisor's supervisor, they will double-check themselves. Tell them that you want to follow the rules and that you should let the supervisor make the decision so that they are covered. I ran into this when working at government facilities. If the instructions were not clear and I could face trouble either way, I would call the supervisor myself for clarification. An agent is always safest when they don't need to make a qualitative decision. The supervisor can also contact TSA for clarification of a rule. It is all about CYA and following the rules, rather than common sense.
exactamundo. sadly im more often than i want in hospitals due to health complications, but seemingly every nurse loves me. im nice, friendly, try to follow their orders as good as i can, dont litter, dont be rude or loud. if you treat them well, they treat you well, even if they are overworked and underpaid. they appreciate the little bit of humanity and humility you can give them. (and this goes for everything, not just nurses. be nice and everythings faster and easier).
You always have a better time when you're obsequious and humble to those who wield power over you. The question is, should it matter? or should the law be black and white and evenly applied to everyone? Should the stressed out guy who's simply had a bad day find himself under more stringent controls?
nah you should be polite when you get the chance you need to repay those trash people for their power tripping. Never sell to TSA employees anything, never rent shit to them and so on
Our son had a replica arrow with a blunt plastic tip rejected at the Las Vegas airport TSA checkpoint. Once inside the checkpoint, we found a store selling arrows with real stone arrowheads and a matching bow.
I was about to point out that if you get an in-flight meal, _the airline themselves_ are likely going to serve _everybody in the entire plane_ that exact same type of plastic, serrated knives to eat the food with.. Then it turned out even better when they actually gave you _metal_ ones, no less... Kudos for the TSA agent to actually listen to you, recognize that they might be wrong, and ultimately thank you for correcting them. That shows real class, frankly.
I agree wholeheartedly, with an exception (yes a but) that as I understand it, it was from a TSA document and that shouldn't be new information to a supervisory officer (maybe the agent on the floor, given the probable bureaucratic training bottlenecks and limitations and whatnot). Relatively happyish resolution had by all, thankfully.
@@Don.Challenger Oh totally. What he did was very reasonable. And even her position isn't *that* crazy, There's a document that says "no knifes" Something totally reasonable on a plane right? I expect others have seen it a bunch: Where you're dealing with some staff member who's acting out of policy, and a supervisor arrives only to blindly take their side. It almost feels like being gaslit. There's no reasoning just demands from authority. I've seen it a bunch in person. I've seen it in BWC videos of police interactions. People just shut down and go defensive. The TSA guy was totally the opposite, I'm actually wondering if running the knifes though the x-ray was more for the benefit of the other staff. (To deescalate and meet everyone halfway) It didn't even look like he necessarily picked a side here, he was just taking in and working on new information, I see it so rarely that it honestly looks odd. Glad people like this are out there.
Is there still a mandate for TSA workers to wear mask? If not: Why not get rid of that effin' thing entirely, rather than wearing it under the nose/chin?
lol the irony... maybe the supervisor maybe voted for a conservative and wants good policy changes and is flexible to learning about existing policies. while the masked TSA agent maybe votes for leftist idiots, wants more stupid restrictive rules, and is not so open to learning about existing policies.
A friend had a similar problem. I gather it went something like "you can't take these nail clippers on the plane". "What could I possibly do with them?" "You might force your way onto the flight deck..." "BUT I'M THE PILOT!".
"This will cost me virtually nothing... _But i have principles."_ Something something it's about the message. ;) Whether it's spite, honor or whatever name you want to put on it, bless you for it.
Your calm attitude and the desire to social engineer a solution, reminds me of the classic book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.
My guess is that the TSA must train their staff, and send them out into the wild to do their job. They then most likely expect the staff to keep checking for updated information using some agent info portal on their website/server. If the TSA tweak the rules, and no one explicitly tells the staff, eventually you'll end up with all the staff working from different revisions of the rule book. It's only when someone pulls them up on something that they find out that the higher ups have gone shuffled the goalposts around slightly.
Training is not exactly stellar, as generally every test done on them, even ones where the staff at the TSA were announced as to the exact date, time and airport section they would be testing, the result was almost inevitably a failure to correctly identify the threat, and identify the people doing the test, and the threat that they were faking there.
Except that isn't a new rule - TSA webpage is very well preserved and here's a snapshot from 2003, two years after TSA creation, with exactly the same rule (knives allowed as long as they are rounded *or* plastic), so it isn't outdated training, just shitty/no training. web.archive.org/web/20031118070322/www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_and_Prohibited_Items.pdf
Before it changed names, you could get an 8.5” solid stainless steel knife after security at Wolfgang Puck’s at O’Hare terminal 3. They did this for at least 6 years and I have many photos of them with tape measure besides them. Macaroni Grill around the corner always had plastic knives.
Actually I thought that was a pretty good interaction. TSA was respectful and it was a situation they had not faced before. But how funny is it they gave you a metal knife for the food they served.
I was in TSA for awhile. Every time contrary stuff like this would pop up in our class training, someone else or I would say the obvious. To which the instructors would either say, "IKR" or "We have brought it up and we are told that is not part of our job. Some other group handles that."
For a while the TSA was randomly changing their rulings and instructing agents to be arbitrary in their decisions, and actually claiming that their “unpredictability” was a security feature not a bug, as it made it harder for terrorists to game the rules and find loopholes.
I once went through with a 1.5l juice box in my hand while chatting about how airport security consistently fails at pen testing where state actors bring bombs and weapons trough - using those words none the less
I don't know if these changes started with 9/11 or if it was the final nail in the coffin but suffice it to say this is been happening for a long time in the US.
@@the_undead A lot of it started with 9/11. Certainly all the stuff with airports did. Though there was a sudden rapid acceleration of existing trends towards authoritarianism when people realized they could justify anything at all by saying it fought terrorism.
Part of the issue is inconsistency in training and to a degree the latitude screeners have - in a way the latter is good but in a way it opens the door to potentially arbitrary decisions that elevate an already difficult situation
They gave you both a steel knife, and also the required equipment to sharpen that into a very lethal weapon, in that you both had ceramic crockery, which makes a pretty good sharpening stone, and a glass that can be broken to make a lethally sharp edge as well.
The interesting point is that there are regulations (no matter how harebrained they are), but the gate TSA agents are not trained on the regulations themselves, but apparently on hearsay from somewhere up above, in a sad game of Chinese whispers.
The punchline at the end is widely known within the airline industry. I’ve known many flight attendant friends who’ve faced serious pushback for bringing the utensils used for service on the plane through a checkpoint.
I took a CRT in a carry on bag from Cali to Michigan. We had a really pleasant talk about it, he was marveling at the x-ray "Oh wow! He's right! Look there's the tube right there!" (Admittedly it was nice to look at the x-ray with him.) But after I just opened the bag and showed him, we were on our way.
I had a portable plastic Krone tool (punch down tool) taken away from me at the Cairns (Australia) airport about 12 years ago, all because it had a "metal blade" about 3mm (1/8") square embedded in the plastic.
Props to the TSA manager who handled this like a human with new information. Too many TSA people abuse the "following this guideline is up to the TSA agents discretion"
even worse imagine them standing in front of a mirror and realising a 20 year old career has given nothing meaningful to the world but has pissed a lot of people off.
Sadly, its more like, "I hope I can afford to pay for my kid's prescription mood-altering drugs, our rent, and buy groceries this week. Also I hope nobody tries to smuggle serrated plastic knives today."
I’ve had that serrated blades airport problem before 9/11. Screening wouldn’t let me through with a S&W serrated rescue knife thick enough the manual says please use it as a pry bar. So I checked it, then bought a Leatherman Charge TTi so I could have a serrated blade and gut hook/seatbelt cutter when flying. Never had a problem with getting it through security until 9/11.
They were going to allow pocket knives again a few years ago (the locked cockpit door pretty much solves the knife problem anyway) but the flight attendant union put a stop to it. After the problems we’ve had with rowdy fliers post-2020 I can’t say I blame them though.
It's good they let you take the knives so you didn't have to go straight to the nearest food vendor and bring them another handful of them. I haven't had a steak in an airport, but I bet they give you a metal serrated knife that's noticeably more menacing than the one on the flight. That supervisor was surprisingly great. Usually they act like MLB umpires and double down when they are wrong. Bravo to him for caring about getting it right.
So, my favorite TSA story, which involves International differences. My wife sewed, knitted and crocheted for a hobby and relaxation, including when traveling. After the 9-11 crackdowns she purchased a small pair of TSA approved scissors since her old ones were banned. She also saved the packaging that said they were TSA approved. When we went to Sint Maarten on vacation the TSA people pulled them out, but concluded they were ok and passed her through. On the return flight, the security screeners in Sint Maarten pulled them out and said they would have to confiscate them. When my wife protested they were specifically TSA approved she was reminded by the screener that she was not in the US and they didn't care about TSA approval. Goodbye scissors. The part that I find both amusing and perhaps even amazing is that neither the Dutch or TSA had any issues with her knitting needles. Steel needles big enough, pointy enough and long enough to harpoon a whale, yet nobody batted an eye.
It would be really cool if someone bought/rented a scanning machine and ran an actual blue team - red team exercise on what is actually dangerous and what kind of rules actually would catch most of the bad stuff. Would make a cool Mythbusters style video.. Or a con talk.
As a disabled traveler, I get delayed for a simple wheelchair adjustment kit (a small of pliers and 1 allen wrench. I have to regularly remind them that I have the right to carry them to safely maintain my mobility device ... 🙂
I carry a few hand tools for work. I always put them in the open, water bottle pockets on the outside of my back pack. That way it doesn’t look like I am trying to hide them & they can take them out & twiddle & measure them without bothering me.
I have a story for you - at one time around 9 years back, I was flying to LAX via Denver and a couple other airports. Stayed about a week in Denver then in LA for another week. On the return flight back home my friend asked me to borrow my knife to cut a bag open. I grabbed it from my hip as it was clipped on my pocket in plain view - as it is every single day, hence the term EDC. He handed it back to me then did a double take. “Have you had that on you the whole time?” And it dawned on me. I’d had it clipped on my pocket for every single flight and never thought twice. Went through the whole body scanners and got patted down. Nothing. Now - as a Cuban-American of mixed descent - I get mistaken for being every single ethnicity you can imagine. I’m literally the one who gets “randomly selected” for enhanced checks every time. Since 2001 especially. But I’m so used to it that A: I didn’t even realize I had it on me. It’s second nature. And B: apparently by the way I carried myself, I raised zero questions. I’m glad they didn’t take it though because even though I have fancier OTF and OTS autos, this particular spring assisted model was among my favorites. That whole series of events is still a wild thought to me.
I'm glad that that supervisor was willing to change his mind, it always seems like TSA is just wrong, and stubborn about it that they're correct. Glad everyone made it to their destination safely with plastic knife or without.
I was provided with a full-size metal cutlery knife on a flight on Saturday, and this is not a problem because the risk to the aircraft from providing a passenger with cutlery is very low. The TSA rules, AFAICT, are not risk informed, or if they are, they are incredibly conservative and are trying to drive to zero-risk, rather than a tolerable or ALARP risk level.
I worked for TSA and this bag check was 100% caused by the inexperience of the xray operator. I was in situations like this plenty of times where I was thinking why am I checking this bag? Then I looked at the the xray operator and I then knew. They maybe saw a corkscrew and looked for other things but it was unclear in the bag. Only way to reduce bag checks is to pack bags in a less cluttered way. They are not going to pull a bag for plastic knives. For example do not put lots of metal objects in the same part of the bag because it's harder to see if the bag contains sharp prohibited items like metal knives. Some airports have 3d xray machines now that reduce this from happening but those are very expensive.
I love these TSA videos. Going forward, could you drop links to your sources shown? Also, I live in Orlando.... Just because someone is called uneducated doesn't mean it's got anything to do with racism, Dev. As soon as you educated them, using TSA's own website, you not only made it easier for people like myself to fly but you probably also save us Tax $ that would otherwise be wasted on TSA safety training seminars that would most likely only discuss inclusivity, diversity, and equity in the workplace.
I had the exact same experience in MCO going through security after an international arrival, except with a wine opener that had a mildly serrated, dull foil remover. The TSA employee tried to cut through her glove with it and failed, but confiscated it anyway. Probably the same lady 🙄
I got stuck in Texas last weekend and had 2 incredible men help my family get sorted out. Its nice to see there are still kind people out there in the wild.
The superviser was super cool and he was clearly listening for your arguments for real instead of pretending to being listening and then doing random decisions. The problem is bad rules, not the employees trying to follow the rules.
I think with the supervisor, he didn't know what to think or do once you showed him TSA's website. Having the knives being scanned allowed him to save face, I think. It allowed him to go back and think about the situation.
Coming back from the Portland Retro Gaming Expo, TSA in PDX subjected me to supplemental screening because I had a bunch of game cartridges and a Sega Genesis. I could not demonstrate it power on, because it requires an outlet and a TV, and they did not understand that. They were older than me, so absolutely should know what game cartridges are. I did as you did, and the supervisor ended up wanting to scrub it down for bomb residue (lol) and send it through on its own... and since he couldn't cite a specific reason it would be banned, decided to let me go with my stuff. Big WTF from me, but it still doesn't beat my experience at LHR several years prior. LHR security is odd compared to my experience with TSA. Because I was one of the last to board (I about missed my flight), they subjected me to additional screening at the gate. At the time, I had a Nokia Lumia 920, which was the first modern phone with an always on display. They called for backup because my phone looked like a fake phone to them - they had never heard of Windows Phone despite the fact that Europe was the market where Microsoft had the #2 ranked market share, they couldn't get the phone to come on by tapping the screen, and they didn't want to listen to me tell them how to make it come on and show the PIN entry screen because they thought it was an explosive. They called the bomb sniffing dogs over, held the plane for 20 minutes, and eventually when they were satisfied, they said "show me it turns on". I pressed the button on the side and slid up my background photo to open the PIN entry dialog (if you use Windows, you know exactly this animation). They could have observed that the clock was updating, or used a tenth of a brain cell. Instead, they made the plane late and reassigned my seat, so I got the awesome seat on the last row in a plane that was last updated in the 90s instead of the exit row I was assigned for my long ass flight. As many times as I've had TSA be a pain in my ass, I've never had them think a cell phone was a bomb.
So I was on a plane flying back from Ethiopia and there was a whole gaggle of children all running around the plane with plastic cutlery having knife fights… I had one of those moments where I could not wrap my head around the absurdity of what was going on. Like no one was really trying to hurt each other… but it seemed like absolute chaos and probably a bad idea.
I for one am genuinely glad people like you are out there making sure things that are legal are still allowed, and not just rejected because they're atypical.
Also running it through the xray makes a record for review and training purposes internally. The standard training and documentation that TSA line officers must adhere to is rarely fully comprehensive. When I was a TSA officer, our briefings sometimes included updates, interpretations, and learned exceptions; an incident such as this could have become a briefing item in this video, the officer and the supervisor both performed their roles correctly, unless either had already received additional instruction or experience regarding the plastic cutlery. By the time I received my badge, I knew the plastic knives in the video were permitted, but I don't think my required and standard training established it; I think it came up as a question in the classroom. "Can I bring..." was developed after my initial training.
I just had an interesting thought, given a metal & a plastic round tipped knife, with a 4+ hour flight, could you using only what you have with you turn either of them into something lethal? I think we both know the answer to that, yes but the plastic would be quicker. BTW on an international flight recently I had a tray table / TV that would not stay put because its screws were all loose. Of course I had no tools with me because TSA. What I did was order a vodka & coke, for which I was given a dinky 7.5 fl oz can. Once consumes I took the can to the washroom & with just my hands I converted the can into a couple of screwdrivers that I then used to fix the tray table.
Still remember there was a popular knife sold primary to defense attorney back in '80s and '90s call frequent fliers. It's a plastic knife that's actually good for self defense and will pass all metal detectors. This is because defense lawyers are afraid of their own clients.
This reminds me of when butterfly knives became illegal in Germany, there was no mention of a size in the law. So even a small keychain butterfly where the blade was like 1 inch suddenly was classified an illegal weapon.
Thanks Deev, been there with the butter knife and TSA. It caught me off guard because my backpack usually gets pulled because of my tape measure or plumb bob of all things. I've since switched to plastic butter knives as they are cheaper to replace, as long as TSA doesn't go after my fork! Lol
Good Day Sir. I was your PM on the show in Orlando. Same thing happened to me on my way out as well. Of course, I had a metal cutlerly kit and they wouldn't let me go with it. I did all the same things of course, spoke politely, asked for a supervisor to review. I have been traveling with that set for over months, at least a flight a week. Had a couple of questions at a couple air[ports, but they always determined it was fine. Even at MCO i've gotten through before. But not this time.
I may be preaching to the choir, but this interaction makes me think of @AuditTheAudit and the many examples of how to stand your ground when you believe you are in the right.
you love to see it. Would be even better to check the website later and see that it was changed to clarify AND hear that their training was updated to further clarify the definitions
I have the utmost respect as an airline pilot for the people at TSA dealing with thousands of the public everyday. That being said: if you ever tell them about the crash axe we’re legally required to carry in the cockpit, a piece of emergency equipment that is an absolute nogo item if we lose it, they have a history of losing their fucking minds.
I have had a few interesting things pinged on my recent flights: A plastic knife (just like your one) A folding utility tool (with a knife) that was 5mm too long An RJ45 Crimping tool that was apparently 1mm too long I guess the NZAA and the TSA are cut from the same cloth.
I actually have a non serrated plastic butter knife that came with a butter dish, so they do exist, but it's the only one i've ever seen. It is kind of hilarious, you didn't call it out, that the metal butter knife was even serrated (non-serrated ones do exist, aiui higher-end ones actually tend to be non serrated)
Being a Karen for basic common sense and personal rights is A-OK in my book. Glad you have the presence of mind to be kind and respectful while standing up for rights.
I used to be 2nd in charge of security for a level IV federal facility where we were under instructions to not allow metal nail files, wine openers or any number of 'dangerous objects'. However, people could have a cane made of heavy wood if they claimed it was necessary as an assistive device and the cafeteria had metal utensils, including metal butter and steak knives. There was also a shooting range inside the basement of the building. Oh, and here's the kicker. Although we were issued a handgun, ammunition, baton, OC spray and handcuffs, our scissors had to be medical safety shears and the knife was limited to a folding blade not over 3.5" with a single plain edge and drop point.
I'm not sure everyone would be so calm. I hope *all* the T.S.A. and those in D.C. use this video. Thank you for pushing the knife issue. I agree with you and thank you.
Props to you for pushing it for clarity even for such a small issue. Props to the supervisor for recognizing the mistake when you provided information showing it was allowed. Being reasonable and respectful goes a long way to improving things rather than just complaining
Idk if it's different in USA but frequent flyer lounges located after security screening will still have metal cutlery, it's so ridiculous to attempt to consifscate even metal rounded cutlery and then give you a buffet full of them free to take straight onto a plane with
Most large airports have restaurants WITH PLASTIC CUTLERY including knives on the secure side! I can't believe that senior TSA officer was actually a semingly decent reasonable human being. Sure he was procedural, but that is great IMHO, as he made a seemingly unbiased decision based on procedure and information. Not every one of them is a failed police officer or rejected mall cop!
I was flying to a conference to setup a demo and got flagged for having "bullets" in my carry-on, which turned out to be my little rubber encased security bit set. When they couldn't hassle me with that, they decided that the 3/4" razor blade embedded in the inside handle of my rj-45 crimper was enough of a security risk that i would have to go check my bag to be able to board.
My take on this is that I am glad the tsa agent made a call in the interest of security even if it wasn't the right call. I would make a terrible tsa agent since I generally just want to avoid confrontation. I would always be allowing things that would be considered a gray area in the rules and likely make flights less secure. Anyway, thank you for being respectful to the agents doing a generally thankless job.
very interesting/insightful video, and it reminded me of a tangential experience from a decade ago. a group of friends and I were returning from ghana, and my friend almost had his recently bought cowbell confiscated because it could be considered a weapon…never mind all of the other instruments/sticks/objects or the frickin souvenir MACHETES that we had on us! We were able to convince the agent the cowbell wasn't a weapon, but it was certainly a memorable exchange.
I used to fly around cross country repairing copy machines. I'm a big believer in using super glue and baking soda to repair plastic parts. Imagine the TSA's shock when they found a small unmarked baggie of baking soda in my tool bag which I specifically check in on account of the, you know, dozens of stabbing implements masquerading as screwdrivers. Needless to say I was out of some baking powder. That was on top of them stopping me with my carry on as they supposedly detected gun powder residue on swabbing it. I was not their friend that day. God bless Dallas/Fort Worth.
I remember when there was an airborne medical emergency and a doctor needed to perform an emergency tracheotomy. He was handed a plastic knife before someone located a small Swiss Army Knife that was then used to cut the airway. That was pre-9/11, IIRC.
Great story, thanks for sharing this. But about the plastic/metal knife: I could honestly see someone managing to break a plastic knife to make it into a sharp shiv. Less so with a metal knife. All in all, I'd probably put them on the same level of risk.
Haha, I appreciate the irony of the airline providing you metal *flatware*. Also, cheers to the supervisor working to understand. Customer service can be so taxing.
Omg, lmfao. Just had my own TSA adventure over a knifeless multi tool, but this one is better. Love your explanation after, including the social engineering angle. Worked for me too.
Hope the TSA agents at Michigan's Bishop International Airport see this as I had a nearly identical experience there. Including the metal butter knife on my connecting flight. 😂
Security theater is never about the item being inspected. It's about a person doing a completely meaningless job, and the only way for them to keep their sanity is to exercise what little power they have. I absolutely 100% get it. TSA money spends just fine, even if the actual security provided is illusory.
What striked me as really f-d up, is that you opened up your phone and shown him a website that looked like the TSA's and he accepted it as authorative without really checking. That's hardcore social engineering there.
I like that the web site has a message that says "this is a real government web site" etc etc
@@DeviantOllam I'm glad they don't let random plebs write that on their website.
There's two possibility I can see here. first he actually could of gone and checked. think about it for a moment as Ollam has mentioned that the idea that those knifes would have enough metal in them to be a problem is pretty silly and he's right. But it is a way the Supervisor could excuse himself from the situation with out implying that he didn't trust the claims Ollam was making. then once out of sight, perhaps as the plastic knifes are running though the machine which he does fully expect to come up negative, he pulls out his own phone goes to the real site and checks it out for himself, finding that it really does say that, he grabs the knifes and brings them back and lets him keep them because he did check and found Ollam was being honest. Doing it this way he can keep up the appearance that he trusted him the whole time, and prevent any further escalation from happening while also going and properly verifying the claim.
or the other possibility could be that the supervisor also believes the knifes would be safe and it's really only on a technicality that he has to take them and in a situation like, where he can even see the url up top is set to the correct url then further scrutiny is not needed in this instance but in different situation where he thinks there's the possibility of actual danger to let the item through he'd give it closer scrutiny then.
That's the fun kind of social engineering. Editing HTML tags to change prices and stock counts for price matching was all the rage before smartphones were in everyone's pockets.
Yeah he definitely went and checked on a separate terminal whilst the knives were running.
I honestly can't believe you changed TSA's mind.
Lol it's all fun and games until someone does an inspect element on the TSA website and shows it to the officer.
Hard same, I'm shocked this was a success.
@@robert-rv8lo "Here it says it's fine to bring bombs!"
@@robert-rv8lo honestly I was on my phone recording but I was seriously thinking the same thing in that moment. My laptop was in my bag tho
Never underestimate the power of humble words and expressions, almost regardless of what you’re actually using them for. I totally agree the supervisor is a diamond in the rough, but 99% of his day is silly power struggles be it passengers, employees, his bosses, etc. and our boy approached him like “it’s your show, I’ll do whatever you want, but..”.
That metal knife on the plane, amazing. What an _astonishing_ waste of time.
When the policy said plastic "OR" rounded butter knife, it really seemed like they were explicitly making an exception for metal butter knifes.
The fork is more dangerous.
@@JV-pu8kx The glassware is probably more dangerous as well. Shard of glass + tape or string + stick like object for handle = homemade knife-like object.
It's a classic clash of policies. Right after 9/11, you would get a metal spoon and fork with your meal, but a flimsy white plastic knife (think cheap fast food quality). As we have gotten further and further away from 9/11, airline policies have changed such that now you will get all metal cutlery on some flights on some airlines, but the TSA has remained tied to the early post-911 policies. I did a lot of traveling pre-911 and had more than a few frequent flyer upgrades to first class. My memory is a little fuzzy from those days, but I'm pretty sure that even then, the knives had rounded tips and mild serrations
@@insboswiz i flew singapore LAX-NRT 2-3 montths ago and they served metal knives and forks
The inconsistent application / knowledge of the rules is the biggest complaint I have with TSA agents. Years ago, my carry on backpack kept getting flagged for supplemental screening. They would check it over and over again at multiple airports, find nothing, and let me proceed. In San Antonio, I finally begged them to keep looking until they found whatever it was that was causing concern. Turned out to be a micro sized screwdriver that was in a pen pocket. It had slipped down inside and was so small you couldn't even see it. The guy admitted it was fully acceptable to travel with, but I ended up removing it once I got home so that I wouldn't get delayed at screening ever again.
That is so frustrating. I'm glad you figured it out but it's a shame that it kept happening to you
Similar thing with me. I am TSA Precheck only very rarely getting flagged for additional screening, then my bag started getting secondary screened everytime I go through TSA. After maybe the 4th or 5th time in a row I ask what's causing the flag, since they never found or said what the issue was. They something like natural fibers between layers of electronics. A few weeks earlier I had got a mobile external monitor for my laptop (think large iPad size) and when packing my bag I always do it the same way, laptop then notebook then monitor. So my next trip I pack laptop then monitor then notebook and I have not been flagged for secondary since about a year ago.
Even though a tool that small is fine and you can easily tell it is on the image. No clue why they'd be yanking it at EVERY checkpoint.
I had something similar once. When I was a computer tech, I carried a very small Gerber multi-tool. I got used to the muscle memory of just throwing it in my pocket for the day.
Well I did that on a day that I was going to travel with my in-laws and got stopped at the check in. The guy that stopped me showed me this regulation about "length of the blade". Except the blade was inside the length requirements, he was including the length of the blade plus the body of the multitool. I pointed this out to him and he measured again, grunted angrily then said "I'm not letting you on with this. Do you want me to ship it back to your house? It will cost 30 dollars".
This was like a 20 dollar multitool that I got on sale somewhere for 15. Like i said, it was a small EDC thing for when I need to cut a zip tie in a pinch while under a desk, or tighten a screw on a computer case. I had my in-laws stomping angrily in the corner of my vision so I just told him to keep it and walked off.
It always seems these situations happen when I'm traveling with my in-laws too. Curse of the universe I guess. Like when I discovered Disneyworld required my fingerprint to get into the park, AT THE GATE.
That same thing, exactly, happened to me on a multi-country trip through Europe. Nobody said anything to me until the Munich airport, where I got the full treatment (swabs, pat downs, etc.) They were nothing but kind during the whole process, and happily let me keep the screwdriver for adjusting my glasses once they knew it wasn’t a weapon. Strange to know this exact situation has happened to other people!
To be frank... i'm much more terrified of the thought of a bad actor with a fork than one with a butterknife...
fear the spork!
Spoon would be worse. Fork and knife would enter you easily..
You get someone stabbing you with a spoon, THAT IS GONNA HURT so much more.
At one point in time they were giving plastic knives and metal forks.....
My barber related a remark someone else told him: If you're mean enough, you can kill someone with a toothpick.
The other 3 letter agencies have tested the TSA every time, and have made it through with dangerous materials numerous times. It's a complete farce.
Reminds me of a random tip I heard somewhere (and is pretty much the same idea as what you said) was that the best way to get someone to admit they're wrong is to make sure they don't feel like you'll shame or belittle them if they do. So those people who angrily ask to see the manager and get all up in their face only dig themselves deeper. Whereas giving the person lots of 'outs' can go a long way - something like, "I mean look it's totally understandable", or even "Yea I didn't even know it until recently'.
Also the best way I've ever heard someone 'ask to see the manager' is they instead said "could you introduce me to the manager" lol.
Used to be that way, something happened around the time I turned 50, I don’t have enough time left in life to deal with others’ stupidity. Get a brain, buy a clue, I don’t care, just shut up and get out of my way.
If anything this worked far too well on this TSA agent, for all he knows deviant could have used inspect element to edit the page (something that would have taken just a few seconds). Instead the dude just trusted deviant even though it would have taken just a few seconds to verify that the website said what it did.
It is important to have the correct professional bearing. If the agents think you might be an auditor, or someone who has the ability to talk to their supervisor's supervisor, they will double-check themselves. Tell them that you want to follow the rules and that you should let the supervisor make the decision so that they are covered. I ran into this when working at government facilities. If the instructions were not clear and I could face trouble either way, I would call the supervisor myself for clarification. An agent is always safest when they don't need to make a qualitative decision. The supervisor can also contact TSA for clarification of a rule. It is all about CYA and following the rules, rather than common sense.
And the thing we should all take from this: when you treat people nicely, it always makes things so much easier for everybody.
exactamundo. sadly im more often than i want in hospitals due to health complications, but seemingly every nurse loves me. im nice, friendly, try to follow their orders as good as i can, dont litter, dont be rude or loud. if you treat them well, they treat you well, even if they are overworked and underpaid. they appreciate the little bit of humanity and humility you can give them.
(and this goes for everything, not just nurses. be nice and everythings faster and easier).
Yes!!! I have found that to be true!! 👍🐈⬛🐾🐈🐾
@@AkiSan0 as a nurse, thanks for being nice to your nurses :)
You always have a better time when you're obsequious and humble to those who wield power over you. The question is, should it matter? or should the law be black and white and evenly applied to everyone? Should the stressed out guy who's simply had a bad day find himself under more stringent controls?
nah you should be polite when you get the chance you need to repay those trash people for their power tripping. Never sell to TSA employees anything, never rent shit to them and so on
Our son had a replica arrow with a blunt plastic tip rejected at the Las Vegas airport TSA checkpoint. Once inside the checkpoint, we found a store selling arrows with real stone arrowheads and a matching bow.
The true power they wield is the power to delay.
100%
I was about to point out that if you get an in-flight meal, _the airline themselves_ are likely going to serve _everybody in the entire plane_ that exact same type of plastic, serrated knives to eat the food with.. Then it turned out even better when they actually gave you _metal_ ones, no less...
Kudos for the TSA agent to actually listen to you, recognize that they might be wrong, and ultimately thank you for correcting them. That shows real class, frankly.
The supervisor was very professional and didn’t let his ego get in the way.
it's not professional to not know one's own job lmao
The supervisor was very humble and open to new information that he wasn’t aware of (even if he should have known it in the first place).
@adrian you're assuming the airline actually spends the time to properly train these people.
The supervisor admitted they did not know and was happy they now know better. I count this as a great result, for all involved.
@@warrensteel9954 airlines don't train them
That supervisor was absurdly chill. I think most people wouldn't have been so open to new information.
Yeah, he was quite cool for a TSA person
I agree wholeheartedly, with an exception (yes a but) that as I understand it, it was from a TSA document and that shouldn't be new information to a supervisory officer (maybe the agent on the floor, given the probable bureaucratic training bottlenecks and limitations and whatnot). Relatively happyish resolution had by all, thankfully.
@@DeviantOllam Which means his job is probably toast
@@Don.Challenger Oh totally. What he did was very reasonable. And even her position isn't *that* crazy, There's a document that says "no knifes" Something totally reasonable on a plane right?
I expect others have seen it a bunch: Where you're dealing with some staff member who's acting out of policy, and a supervisor arrives only to blindly take their side. It almost feels like being gaslit. There's no reasoning just demands from authority.
I've seen it a bunch in person. I've seen it in BWC videos of police interactions. People just shut down and go defensive.
The TSA guy was totally the opposite, I'm actually wondering if running the knifes though the x-ray was more for the benefit of the other staff. (To deescalate and meet everyone halfway)
It didn't even look like he necessarily picked a side here, he was just taking in and working on new information, I see it so rarely that it honestly looks odd.
Glad people like this are out there.
Plus he thanked our hero for actually TRAINING him! On a job he is supposedly good enough at to wear a shirt that reads "Supervisor".
The lady that hassled you initially was wearing a mask below her nose. Perfectly describes the average TSA worker.
Probably because she is smart enough to know that they don't work the way the government led us to believe.
And the supervisor wore his under his chin. The higher you climb, the lower you can wear your mask.
Is there still a mandate for TSA workers to wear mask? If not: Why not get rid of that effin' thing entirely, rather than wearing it under the nose/chin?
@@anonytube1679 no mandate for TSA workers, it is this persons choice and they chose to illustrate to the world their own ignorance.
lol the irony... maybe the supervisor maybe voted for a conservative and wants good policy changes and is flexible to learning about existing policies.
while the masked TSA agent maybe votes for leftist idiots, wants more stupid restrictive rules, and is not so open to learning about existing policies.
A friend had a similar problem. I gather it went something like "you can't take these nail clippers on the plane". "What could I possibly do with them?" "You might force your way onto the flight deck..." "BUT I'M THE PILOT!".
To be fair to the tsa agents, your name is Deviant, there's no telling what you're hiding in those butter knifes LOL
Imagine how much worse it would be if his name was Mahmoud Mohammad Al-Ibn Bin Salmad, though?
"This will cost me virtually nothing... _But i have principles."_
Something something it's about the message. ;)
Whether it's spite, honor or whatever name you want to put on it, bless you for it.
The hilarity of being handed the metal cutlery at the end made my day...for all the wrong reasons. lol
I loved how you showed that the airline served you knives that were more dangerous than the ones you were carrying.
Your calm attitude and the desire to social engineer a solution, reminds me of the classic book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.
My guess is that the TSA must train their staff, and send them out into the wild to do their job. They then most likely expect the staff to keep checking for updated information using some agent info portal on their website/server. If the TSA tweak the rules, and no one explicitly tells the staff, eventually you'll end up with all the staff working from different revisions of the rule book. It's only when someone pulls them up on something that they find out that the higher ups have gone shuffled the goalposts around slightly.
Training is not exactly stellar, as generally every test done on them, even ones where the staff at the TSA were announced as to the exact date, time and airport section they would be testing, the result was almost inevitably a failure to correctly identify the threat, and identify the people doing the test, and the threat that they were faking there.
Except that isn't a new rule - TSA webpage is very well preserved and here's a snapshot from 2003, two years after TSA creation, with exactly the same rule (knives allowed as long as they are rounded *or* plastic), so it isn't outdated training, just shitty/no training.
web.archive.org/web/20031118070322/www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_and_Prohibited_Items.pdf
4:15
"You were wrong. So we good?"
"LOL NO."
Before it changed names, you could get an 8.5” solid stainless steel knife after security at Wolfgang Puck’s at O’Hare terminal 3.
They did this for at least 6 years and I have many photos of them with tape measure besides them. Macaroni Grill around the corner always had plastic knives.
Actually I thought that was a pretty good interaction. TSA was respectful and it was a situation they had not faced before. But how funny is it they gave you a metal knife for the food they served.
I was in TSA for awhile. Every time contrary stuff like this would pop up in our class training, someone else or I would say the obvious. To which the instructors would either say, "IKR" or "We have brought it up and we are told that is not part of our job. Some other group handles that."
I've followed the exercise your rights regularly to keep it normal forever, even through the issues it's caused!
For a while the TSA was randomly changing their rulings and instructing agents to be arbitrary in their decisions, and actually claiming that their “unpredictability” was a security feature not a bug, as it made it harder for terrorists to game the rules and find loopholes.
I've carried my Swiss army knife through Finnish airport security. Watching you guys deal with TSA seems insane to me.
Flying in the USA is insane. I envy other countries that don't have to deal with crap like this.
The TSA is insane. I'd say it is worthless, but we pay millions of dollars for immense delays and no security, so it has substantial negative worth.
I once went through with a 1.5l juice box in my hand while chatting about how airport security consistently fails at pen testing where state actors bring bombs and weapons trough - using those words none the less
I don't know if these changes started with 9/11 or if it was the final nail in the coffin but suffice it to say this is been happening for a long time in the US.
@@the_undead A lot of it started with 9/11. Certainly all the stuff with airports did. Though there was a sudden rapid acceleration of existing trends towards authoritarianism when people realized they could justify anything at all by saying it fought terrorism.
It's amazing how little training we're trusting all of this security to keep us safe.
TSA job isn't to keep us safe, it is to make us feel safe so we keep flying.
Part of the issue is inconsistency in training and to a degree the latitude screeners have - in a way the latter is good but in a way it opens the door to potentially arbitrary decisions that elevate an already difficult situation
@@stephenmg12 not officially
Never mistake security theatre for actual security.
If they wanted real security they would pay for it. In the industry we call this security theatre.
They gave you both a steel knife, and also the required equipment to sharpen that into a very lethal weapon, in that you both had ceramic crockery, which makes a pretty good sharpening stone, and a glass that can be broken to make a lethally sharp edge as well.
The interesting point is that there are regulations (no matter how harebrained they are), but the gate TSA agents are not trained on the regulations themselves, but apparently on hearsay from somewhere up above, in a sad game of Chinese whispers.
TSA = people... some super smart, some super savvy, some mindless drones following what someone might have told them.
The punchline at the end is widely known within the airline industry. I’ve known many flight attendant friends who’ve faced serious pushback for bringing the utensils used for service on the plane through a checkpoint.
I took a CRT in a carry on bag from Cali to Michigan. We had a really pleasant talk about it, he was marveling at the x-ray "Oh wow! He's right! Look there's the tube right there!" (Admittedly it was nice to look at the x-ray with him.)
But after I just opened the bag and showed him, we were on our way.
I had a portable plastic Krone tool (punch down tool) taken away from me at the Cairns (Australia) airport about 12 years ago, all because it had a "metal blade" about 3mm (1/8") square embedded in the plastic.
Props to the TSA manager who handled this like a human with new information. Too many TSA people abuse the "following this guideline is up to the TSA agents discretion"
I can just imagine the TSA agent hyping themselves up in the bathroom mirror as they get ready for work. "It's Airportin' Time."
even worse imagine them standing in front of a mirror and realising a 20 year old career has given nothing meaningful to the world but has pissed a lot of people off.
"Just two more years at this and then I can graduate to theatre usher, then from there it's only more more step up to mall cop, baby!!"
Sadly, its more like, "I hope I can afford to pay for my kid's prescription mood-altering drugs, our rent, and buy groceries this week. Also I hope nobody tries to smuggle serrated plastic knives today."
I’ve had that serrated blades airport problem before 9/11. Screening wouldn’t let me through with a S&W serrated rescue knife thick enough the manual says please use it as a pry bar. So I checked it, then bought a Leatherman Charge TTi so I could have a serrated blade and gut hook/seatbelt cutter when flying. Never had a problem with getting it through security until 9/11.
They were going to allow pocket knives again a few years ago (the locked cockpit door pretty much solves the knife problem anyway) but the flight attendant union put a stop to it. After the problems we’ve had with rowdy fliers post-2020 I can’t say I blame them though.
It's good they let you take the knives so you didn't have to go straight to the nearest food vendor and bring them another handful of them. I haven't had a steak in an airport, but I bet they give you a metal serrated knife that's noticeably more menacing than the one on the flight.
That supervisor was surprisingly great. Usually they act like MLB umpires and double down when they are wrong. Bravo to him for caring about getting it right.
So, my favorite TSA story, which involves International differences.
My wife sewed, knitted and crocheted for a hobby and relaxation, including when traveling. After the 9-11 crackdowns she purchased a small pair of TSA approved scissors since her old ones were banned. She also saved the packaging that said they were TSA approved.
When we went to Sint Maarten on vacation the TSA people pulled them out, but concluded they were ok and passed her through. On the return flight, the security screeners in Sint Maarten pulled them out and said they would have to confiscate them. When my wife protested they were specifically TSA approved she was reminded by the screener that she was not in the US and they didn't care about TSA approval. Goodbye scissors.
The part that I find both amusing and perhaps even amazing is that neither the Dutch or TSA had any issues with her knitting needles. Steel needles big enough, pointy enough and long enough to harpoon a whale, yet nobody batted an eye.
"Be nice, smile politely, and never, ever, take so long you miss your flight."
It would be really cool if someone bought/rented a scanning machine and ran an actual blue team - red team exercise on what is actually dangerous and what kind of rules actually would catch most of the bad stuff. Would make a cool Mythbusters style video.. Or a con talk.
the TSA have been pentested before, and they failed spectacularly every time.
As a disabled traveler, I get delayed for a simple wheelchair adjustment kit (a small of pliers and 1 allen wrench. I have to regularly remind them that I have the right to carry them to safely maintain my mobility device ... 🙂
I carry a few hand tools for work. I always put them in the open, water bottle pockets on the outside of my back pack. That way it doesn’t look like I am trying to hide them & they can take them out & twiddle & measure them without bothering me.
I have a story for you - at one time around 9 years back, I was flying to LAX via Denver and a couple other airports. Stayed about a week in Denver then in LA for another week. On the return flight back home my friend asked me to borrow my knife to cut a bag open. I grabbed it from my hip as it was clipped on my pocket in plain view - as it is every single day, hence the term EDC. He handed it back to me then did a double take. “Have you had that on you the whole time?” And it dawned on me. I’d had it clipped on my pocket for every single flight and never thought twice. Went through the whole body scanners and got patted down. Nothing. Now - as a Cuban-American of mixed descent - I get mistaken for being every single ethnicity you can imagine. I’m literally the one who gets “randomly selected” for enhanced checks every time. Since 2001 especially. But I’m so used to it that A: I didn’t even realize I had it on me. It’s second nature. And B: apparently by the way I carried myself, I raised zero questions. I’m glad they didn’t take it though because even though I have fancier OTF and OTS autos, this particular spring assisted model was among my favorites. That whole series of events is still a wild thought to me.
I'm glad that that supervisor was willing to change his mind, it always seems like TSA is just wrong, and stubborn about it that they're correct. Glad everyone made it to their destination safely with plastic knife or without.
I was provided with a full-size metal cutlery knife on a flight on Saturday, and this is not a problem because the risk to the aircraft from providing a passenger with cutlery is very low. The TSA rules, AFAICT, are not risk informed, or if they are, they are incredibly conservative and are trying to drive to zero-risk, rather than a tolerable or ALARP risk level.
The TSA rules are informed more by Hollywood action films than anything else.
I worked for TSA and this bag check was 100% caused by the inexperience of the xray operator. I was in situations like this plenty of times where I was thinking why am I checking this bag? Then I looked at the the xray operator and I then knew. They maybe saw a corkscrew and looked for other things but it was unclear in the bag. Only way to reduce bag checks is to pack bags in a less cluttered way. They are not going to pull a bag for plastic knives. For example do not put lots of metal objects in the same part of the bag because it's harder to see if the bag contains sharp prohibited items like metal knives. Some airports have 3d xray machines now that reduce this from happening but those are very expensive.
Really like the supervisors approach to the situation. Seemed like a genuinely reasonable person.
I love these TSA videos. Going forward, could you drop links to your sources shown?
Also, I live in Orlando.... Just because someone is called uneducated doesn't mean it's got anything to do with racism, Dev. As soon as you educated them, using TSA's own website, you not only made it easier for people like myself to fly but you probably also save us Tax $ that would otherwise be wasted on TSA safety training seminars that would most likely only discuss inclusivity, diversity, and equity in the workplace.
Airport security has gotten way out of hand. Its long overdue to abolish TSA.
Funny thing is the TSA are there to protect Boeing's planes, and now Boeing is sabotaging their own planes without the TSA stopping them.
I had the exact same experience in MCO going through security after an international arrival, except with a wine opener that had a mildly serrated, dull foil remover. The TSA employee tried to cut through her glove with it and failed, but confiscated it anyway. Probably the same lady 🙄
Well said. And you know that as stated the second xray run was to cover the supervisor's ass he seemed very chill and on it
I got stuck in Texas last weekend and had 2 incredible men help my family get sorted out. Its nice to see there are still kind people out there in the wild.
The superviser was super cool and he was clearly listening for your arguments for real instead of pretending to being listening and then doing random decisions.
The problem is bad rules, not the employees trying to follow the rules.
I think with the supervisor, he didn't know what to think or do once you showed him TSA's website.
Having the knives being scanned allowed him to save face, I think. It allowed him to go back and think about the situation.
Coming back from the Portland Retro Gaming Expo, TSA in PDX subjected me to supplemental screening because I had a bunch of game cartridges and a Sega Genesis. I could not demonstrate it power on, because it requires an outlet and a TV, and they did not understand that. They were older than me, so absolutely should know what game cartridges are. I did as you did, and the supervisor ended up wanting to scrub it down for bomb residue (lol) and send it through on its own... and since he couldn't cite a specific reason it would be banned, decided to let me go with my stuff. Big WTF from me, but it still doesn't beat my experience at LHR several years prior. LHR security is odd compared to my experience with TSA. Because I was one of the last to board (I about missed my flight), they subjected me to additional screening at the gate. At the time, I had a Nokia Lumia 920, which was the first modern phone with an always on display. They called for backup because my phone looked like a fake phone to them - they had never heard of Windows Phone despite the fact that Europe was the market where Microsoft had the #2 ranked market share, they couldn't get the phone to come on by tapping the screen, and they didn't want to listen to me tell them how to make it come on and show the PIN entry screen because they thought it was an explosive. They called the bomb sniffing dogs over, held the plane for 20 minutes, and eventually when they were satisfied, they said "show me it turns on". I pressed the button on the side and slid up my background photo to open the PIN entry dialog (if you use Windows, you know exactly this animation). They could have observed that the clock was updating, or used a tenth of a brain cell. Instead, they made the plane late and reassigned my seat, so I got the awesome seat on the last row in a plane that was last updated in the 90s instead of the exit row I was assigned for my long ass flight. As many times as I've had TSA be a pain in my ass, I've never had them think a cell phone was a bomb.
So I was on a plane flying back from Ethiopia and there was a whole gaggle of children all running around the plane with plastic cutlery having knife fights… I had one of those moments where I could not wrap my head around the absurdity of what was going on. Like no one was really trying to hurt each other… but it seemed like absolute chaos and probably a bad idea.
I for one am genuinely glad people like you are out there making sure things that are legal are still allowed, and not just rejected because they're atypical.
Also running it through the xray makes a record for review and training purposes internally. The standard training and documentation that TSA line officers must adhere to is rarely fully comprehensive. When I was a TSA officer, our briefings sometimes included updates, interpretations, and learned exceptions; an incident such as this could have become a briefing item in this video, the officer and the supervisor both performed their roles correctly, unless either had already received additional instruction or experience regarding the plastic cutlery. By the time I received my badge, I knew the plastic knives in the video were permitted, but I don't think my required and standard training established it; I think it came up as a question in the classroom. "Can I bring..." was developed after my initial training.
I'm just glad I don't have to fly as often as you do.
I just had an interesting thought, given a metal & a plastic round tipped knife, with a 4+ hour flight, could you using only what you have with you turn either of them into something lethal?
I think we both know the answer to that, yes but the plastic would be quicker.
BTW on an international flight recently I had a tray table / TV that would not stay put because its screws were all loose. Of course I had no tools with me because TSA. What I did was order a vodka & coke, for which I was given a dinky 7.5 fl oz can. Once consumes I took the can to the washroom & with just my hands I converted the can into a couple of screwdrivers that I then used to fix the tray table.
Oh my stars and little fishies, that was adorable. I'm glad you were able to find humor in the situation.
I really agree with that last point about individual agents: Don’t blame the actors for the security theater.
I was blown away by the fact that they brought you a metal knife after needing an act of Congress to get your plastic ones through TSA. Unbelievable!
Still remember there was a popular knife sold primary to defense attorney back in '80s and '90s call frequent fliers. It's a plastic knife that's actually good for self defense and will pass all metal detectors. This is because defense lawyers are afraid of their own clients.
This reminds me of when butterfly knives became illegal in Germany, there was no mention of a size in the law. So even a small keychain butterfly where the blade was like 1 inch suddenly was classified an illegal weapon.
Thanks Deev, been there with the butter knife and TSA. It caught me off guard because my backpack usually gets pulled because of my tape measure or plumb bob of all things. I've since switched to plastic butter knives as they are cheaper to replace, as long as TSA doesn't go after my fork! Lol
Good Day Sir. I was your PM on the show in Orlando. Same thing happened to me on my way out as well. Of course, I had a metal cutlerly kit and they wouldn't let me go with it. I did all the same things of course, spoke politely, asked for a supervisor to review. I have been traveling with that set for over months, at least a flight a week. Had a couple of questions at a couple air[ports, but they always determined it was fine. Even at MCO i've gotten through before. But not this time.
Damn, so sorry that you had issues at MCO on this hop. But thanks for being a part of everything with me at the event! 👍
I remember eating with metal cutlery as a kid on planes in the 90s. Decent meals too.
OMG! that pointy metal wine opener would be more deadly than a plastic butter knife!!
I may be preaching to the choir, but this interaction makes me think of @AuditTheAudit and the many examples of how to stand your ground when you believe you are in the right.
you love to see it. Would be even better to check the website later and see that it was changed to clarify AND hear that their training was updated to further clarify the definitions
"You've gotta fight..For your right..To have cutlery"😂😂
I have the utmost respect as an airline pilot for the people at TSA dealing with thousands of the public everyday. That being said: if you ever tell them about the crash axe we’re legally required to carry in the cockpit, a piece of emergency equipment that is an absolute nogo item if we lose it, they have a history of losing their fucking minds.
I have had a few interesting things pinged on my recent flights:
A plastic knife (just like your one)
A folding utility tool (with a knife) that was 5mm too long
An RJ45 Crimping tool that was apparently 1mm too long
I guess the NZAA and the TSA are cut from the same cloth.
I actually have a non serrated plastic butter knife that came with a butter dish, so they do exist, but it's the only one i've ever seen.
It is kind of hilarious, you didn't call it out, that the metal butter knife was even serrated (non-serrated ones do exist, aiui higher-end ones actually tend to be non serrated)
"What if there's cake inside that knife?" - Priceless!!
Being a Karen for basic common sense and personal rights is A-OK in my book. Glad you have the presence of mind to be kind and respectful while standing up for rights.
ua-cam.com/video/lZDvvCKpf0k/v-deo.html
That's what makes him not a Karen, or Ken, or whatever.
I used to be 2nd in charge of security for a level IV federal facility where we were under instructions to not allow metal nail files, wine openers or any number of 'dangerous objects'. However, people could have a cane made of heavy wood if they claimed it was necessary as an assistive device and the cafeteria had metal utensils, including metal butter and steak knives. There was also a shooting range inside the basement of the building. Oh, and here's the kicker. Although we were issued a handgun, ammunition, baton, OC spray and handcuffs, our scissors had to be medical safety shears and the knife was limited to a folding blade not over 3.5" with a single plain edge and drop point.
I'm not sure everyone would be so calm.
I hope *all* the T.S.A. and those in D.C. use this video.
Thank you for pushing the knife issue. I agree with you and thank you.
Props to you for pushing it for clarity even for such a small issue. Props to the supervisor for recognizing the mistake when you provided information showing it was allowed. Being reasonable and respectful goes a long way to improving things rather than just complaining
Idk if it's different in USA but frequent flyer lounges located after security screening will still have metal cutlery, it's so ridiculous to attempt to consifscate even metal rounded cutlery and then give you a buffet full of them free to take straight onto a plane with
Most large airports have restaurants WITH PLASTIC CUTLERY including knives on the secure side!
I can't believe that senior TSA officer was actually a semingly decent reasonable human being. Sure he was procedural, but that is great IMHO, as he made a seemingly unbiased decision based on procedure and information.
Not every one of them is a failed police officer or rejected mall cop!
I was flying to a conference to setup a demo and got flagged for having "bullets" in my carry-on, which turned out to be my little rubber encased security bit set. When they couldn't hassle me with that, they decided that the 3/4" razor blade embedded in the inside handle of my rj-45 crimper was enough of a security risk that i would have to go check my bag to be able to board.
My take on this is that I am glad the tsa agent made a call in the interest of security even if it wasn't the right call. I would make a terrible tsa agent since I generally just want to avoid confrontation. I would always be allowing things that would be considered a gray area in the rules and likely make flights less secure. Anyway, thank you for being respectful to the agents doing a generally thankless job.
very interesting/insightful video, and it reminded me of a tangential experience from a decade ago. a group of friends and I were returning from ghana, and my friend almost had his recently bought cowbell confiscated because it could be considered a weapon…never mind all of the other instruments/sticks/objects or the frickin souvenir MACHETES that we had on us! We were able to convince the agent the cowbell wasn't a weapon, but it was certainly a memorable exchange.
Deviant: Don't be racist.
Also deviant: im privileged because im white.
I used to fly around cross country repairing copy machines. I'm a big believer in using super glue and baking soda to repair plastic parts. Imagine the TSA's shock when they found a small unmarked baggie of baking soda in my tool bag which I specifically check in on account of the, you know, dozens of stabbing implements masquerading as screwdrivers. Needless to say I was out of some baking powder. That was on top of them stopping me with my carry on as they supposedly detected gun powder residue on swabbing it. I was not their friend that day. God bless Dallas/Fort Worth.
I remember when there was an airborne medical emergency and a doctor needed to perform an emergency tracheotomy. He was handed a plastic knife before someone located a small Swiss Army Knife that was then used to cut the airway. That was pre-9/11, IIRC.
Kudos to the TSA agent for not letting his ego get in the way from common sense.
Great story, thanks for sharing this.
But about the plastic/metal knife: I could honestly see someone managing to break a plastic knife to make it into a sharp shiv. Less so with a metal knife.
All in all, I'd probably put them on the same level of risk.
Any plastic object could be a knife by that logic.
@@nexusxe yup
"Thank you for participating in our security theater, citizen!"
Haha, I appreciate the irony of the airline providing you metal *flatware*.
Also, cheers to the supervisor working to understand. Customer service can be so taxing.
Omg, lmfao. Just had my own TSA adventure over a knifeless multi tool, but this one is better. Love your explanation after, including the social engineering angle. Worked for me too.
Hope the TSA agents at Michigan's Bishop International Airport see this as I had a nearly identical experience there. Including the metal butter knife on my connecting flight. 😂
Security theater is never about the item being inspected.
It's about a person doing a completely meaningless job, and the only way for them to keep their sanity is to exercise what little power they have. I absolutely 100% get it. TSA money spends just fine, even if the actual security provided is illusory.
That guy did a good job of checking the information, hell yeah
This level of stubborn pettiness for the sake of principals is what I strive for lol
Literally every restaurant in that airport would also happily give you a fistful of knives that are just as dangerous.
Dev you ALWAYS have the best airport stories! good stuff!
Mate you were so calm and un-flustered you could of talked youself on that plane with an uzi !!