Stacking dimes Vs Stringers, which is stronger? (part 2)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- In this episode we tackle the question of what is stronger, stacking dimes or stringer welds
Previous video is here:
• Is "stacking tacks" or...
0:00:00 Intro and addressing comments
0:12:58 Overview of test plate
0:19:20 Cut, etch, and inspection
0:30:54 Fillet weld testing
0:35:34 Fillet weld break test
0:40:13 Broken plate inspection
0:48:23 Cut and etch test inspection
0:54:30 Conclusion
I know it took a lot of work and planning to lay all this out in vid form for people. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Everyone should always be learning.
It’s no problem. Believe it or not I shot the whole video twice with most of the same testing twice because I lost audio on it. The results of all the same settings with the break tests and dime stacks were identical. Even I learned a lot doing the testing, which is why I brought that up. It pays to always learn and experiment/test. 😀
World needs more Gregs. Sir your lectures have high value. Thank you
Thanks 😀. I just share my thoughts/opinions on stuff and try to help people out. Hopefully inspire some people to pickup tools and build some cool stuff 🛠️
I'm a novice welder. I have been watching videos on TIG welding stick welding and MIG welding for years. And you sir, are the only one that has EVER addressed the idea of thicker metal being easier to manipulate in terms of stacking dimes! Thank you!
It definitely is easier to make dimes when you have a heat sink to solidify the weld pool. That’s also why aluminum is so easy to make dimes with, the puddle freezes instantly.
Having the flat is stronger if you get a job welding it'll be easier on your body being smooth rather than a wiggly guy
Conclusion, save the pretty welds for true Tig welded aluminum bicycle frames. You don't want the A-arm of your truck falling off because someone was doing a Mig like Tig look a like weld. This is the most comprehensive weld video comparing these weld types that I have ever seen. I would like to see you do Tig with 1/4" plate and see how it compares strength wise. Great video!
This video should be in every welding school and showed in every welding job out there, im a combo welder, i have over 35 yrs welding and fabricating with all types of materials and I've turned green in the face explaining the do's and don't and the whys about stacking dimes just because they look cool compared to stringers, a wise man told me when i was being self taught in the eary 80's "if you want to learn how to weld, worry about whats gonna hold before how its gonna look" you must be around my age, we are a dying breed, there's no point of arguing with this new generation welders, i can rest my case now, thanks, great video,
I think the biggest thing that people are confused about is they see aluminum, 6010, and tig dimes and think it’s appropriate for mig as well. Combine that with the fact virtually nobody does cut and etches or break tests on their own work, and you have a recipe for disaster. When researching the video I almost fell out of my chair when I looked up the settings guys were running to get dimes. Universally they were welding at settings appropriate for 14-18ga, but on 1/4 material lol. Yeah it does produce dimes, but at no fusion and weak welds lol.
Thanks for another fantastic "proof-is-in-the-pudding" video! Your testing is excellent!
I am ready to revisit/learn more about dualshield-
Thanks Greg!
Wowwwwwwww Greg no breakdown videos like this on on th internet THANK U we appreciate u …..Penetration is th Key to any weld not so much pretty looks ….on things that are not structural critical we can get away with pretty welds but wen it comes to th safety of people’s lives we gotta make sure that we follow th welding procedures to a T not worrying about looks rather focus on depth of Penetration THANK U an God Bless🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Dude's bringing the receipts!
Thanks for all your hard work Greg
You do all the leg work with the informative videos that you provide
👍👍😁
No problem 😀. I want to provide people with knowledge so they understand what’s going on and make the right decisions. I have no problem if someone wants to make pretty welds, if they are aware of what’s going on, and the finished product will meet the requirements.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg
Very much appreciated 👍
By the way, have you ever tried any of the Everlast machines ?
Well done Greg, you seldom fail to impress!
Another great video. Thanks I learn from you every time. I do mostly stick welding and prefer a pull angle to a push angle.
I learned a lot here. I have flux cored for years with a transformer welder with two heat ranges - way too hot and way way way too hot. I have just started MIG welding and this is an excellent tutorial. Thank you.
The big thing with mig is it has far more variables than stick. You can push, pull, you have both voltage and wire speed to adjust, and you have inductance control too (on some welders). The big thing with mig over stick is you must use settings that are appropriate for the material. Much like using 80amps on a 1/8th 7018 isn’t going to get the job done, using low settings with mig isn’t going to either. The difference is a stick weld run cold looks ugly and probably will be tough to weld with. A mig weld run cold will look far better than an ugly stick weld. So it can be difficult to visually determine what’s going on. Once you get a feel for mig and do a few break tests/cut and etches you will find it actually has exceptional strength. I tend to still stick weld thicker plates but mig has a ton of potential.
I worked at Terex where they built earth moving equipment repairing electrical equipment. Wire feed welders running 485 amps and beam welders running 1/2" wire @ 800 amps. All welds were x ray tested Orman fluxed, no one stacked dimes. The welders all wore leather everything and were soaking wet from sweat by 9AM , no fans welders worked very hard and did picture perfect welds. Stick welding I have done since 12 years old, never had a weld fail ! Or look picture perfect and that is what counts when repairing, not pictures.😊
Yes. Welding is a great skill to have. May some young, listen to some old.
I always tell people that a tiny bit of manipulation is fine while mig welding if you want to keep a rhythm but don’t whip it unless you’re trying to actually “cool” the weld down like when encountering a gap. But some people feel the need to whip it like it’s a 6010.
@@bojengels1 hey I'm in school right now to get my welding cert and I'm doing 3/8 plate with a 3/16 gap I normally manipulate from one side of the gap to the other I was told I needed to to get good penetration on both sides is that what you do or do you run stringers uphill
@@troysasser1517 uphill like that you have to manipulate with hard wire simply to help work against gravity.
@@bojengels1its all about the welders comfort level and what theyre seein we see the finish product they see the puddle and penetration..people pass for license doin dimes its all about consistency nd heat
I started this hobby to fix an outdoor barbecue canopy. The whole thing is made from thin steel tubing. Man I've got a lot to learn..
Thanks for your videos.
So you admit it...
Ya I'm my U-Tube channel should be the bumbling stumbling geezer.
@@tinkering123 😆 too funny. Are you using flux core or mig?
Hey assman. I'm just an old geezer tinkering around in the backyard. I bought a cheap ass amazon special for $50, stick welder. I'm just dinking around remembering my high-school days.
You fellows with the great skills are fun to watch. Kinda like staring at a construction site.
@@tinkering123 Oh no 😅. No skill here. We're in similar boats. I've got a flux core Lincoln Weld-PAK 100 that I got used off Craigslist (135usd), and have boogered some scrap together. I'm getting better, but sneezing on some plate steel would look about as good as my current welds. It's good fun 😊!
I appreciate you doing this video and taking the time to make and support your argument with actual evidence. If people disagree with you, that’s great too, as long as they approach it like a reasonable conversation and provide their arguments and evidence to refute you, and not just repeat what they’ve heard or been told. That’s how we all learn. Your approach in this video is fantastic and I appreciate you having this conversation and making all of us think more clearly and learn something in the process.
Thanks for the kind words. To date I have had a lot of people argue I was wrong, but unfortunately none of them have posted anything to support their opinion lol. No recommended settings, no proof of a cut and etch with proper penetration, or even some form of linked article with supporting evidence. Part of making an argument is sticking to the facts, evidence, and arguing against another persons evidence. Most people against the evidence in the video have stuck to personal attacks or just stating I am wrong, with nothing to support their opinion. I know that the info in the video is extremely accurate because I know a lot about welding, but if someone would provide evidence that my info is wrong, I will gladly try what they say. 😀
I really enjoy your videos. I learn something every time I watch.
Thanks, I am glad the information is useful 😀
I have some welding experience and by no means am I an expert, more like a novice. If found your testing regiment very thorough and greatly appreciate all your efforts. Based on your results couple that with manufacture recommendations that have the capital to test and prove their settings is good enough for me. If someone still insists you and the manufactures are wrong really highlights their own stubbornness & arrogance which you can't fix. Sometimes we have to be able to admit we're wrong.
Thanks for the kind words 😀. Without a doubt more testing could give a more accurate result due to having better “average” data, however I am confident the results in the video hold true. The struggle for me is many people get offended when you point out things like a serious flaw with what they do. My goal is to encourage, motivate, and instill knowledge on how to do things so people can make good decisions for what they are working on. With that said stacking dimes is a poor way to produce strong welds, and at a very minimum it introduces inconsistent fusion which can be a serious detriment. Some people take offense to that fact and turn it into a pissing match. The truth is I don’t care what someone does. I just find it funny how the people that mig like tig never post pics of cut and etches, never do destructive tests, and they change the subject when the fact their welds are weaker than they should be. Even worse is the fact many people simply don’t understand why tig and 6010 rods can produce dimes with fusion, and short arc mig really can’t. My hope is the video helps people realize there is no free lunch and it’s important to test your welds. A simple cut and etch would solve a lot of the mig like tig I think lol.
My philosophy is make it as best you can, strongest as you can. Then for the life of the product the product has reserve strength. (Exception is: if something is going to fail, if you NEED something to fail HERE, not there for safety.) AFA "GOOD ENOUGH." tell that to the family that got run off the road, over the guard rail, over a cliff and is hanging there, suspended by the trailer hitch. 24:35
Hank you for some great teaching!
Excellent video, When i started welding a "stack of dime's" was the change in the pop machine hopper I had to cram in those paper tube's to take to the bank, The weld's I was expected to make were proper consistent and quality weldment's to be made in a timely manner. when your work is running up and down the highways meeting a van full of family(that poor family lost so many years ago in Illinois from a truck mudflap) your work better be your best, some people out there seem to forget that. thank you for your efforts sir. 👍🏻
No problem 😀
Thank you for the putting the work in, this was very informative to me, I’m just starting out as a home hobby and this is great information. Just the other day I was showing off my latest “stack of dimes” to my neighbor not knowing what was actually going on beneath. I’m actually going to head out to the shop and etch that same weld to see the results. 👍👍👍
Thanks for taking the time to respond. The biggest takeaway from the video is I want people to test what they are doing. You have the right mindset, see what’s going on with your work. Welding can be art (visually appealing) but when things need to hold together there is no room for artistic flair at the expense of strength 😀
Appreciate the honesty and knowledge. I was a structural welder when I was younger and had to have a lot of welds X-rayed and be certified on most every new job. Taking pride that your weld is structurally sound is so much more important than if it pretty.
Doing things right so they pass NDT is pretty “boring”. As in there is a very narrow window of what works and what must be done, with very little room for people to use welding “tricks” or “artistic flair”. Using below required heat input/amperage to approve visual look is one thing that’s guaranteed to be an issue lol.
Greg, I am a toolmaker by trade, and a Manufacturing Engineer for the last 24 years in Aerospace and Shipbuilding. I can't weld for toffee as I have never done enough of any type so have no real experience. However, your videos are very well grounded with well thought out tests, using facts and data to back up the narrative. Facts and data beat opinions every time and is exactly how professional industry works (especially regulated ones). Keep doing what you are doing and just ignore the opinion jockeys, very useful reference for newbies like me, thanks. Jon🏴
Thanks for the kind words 😀. I want to make sure people have substance rather than just my opinion. And most importantly everyone needs to test their own welds and see what’s going on. It’s about making the best decisions on what to do based on knowing the results. A BBQ smoker will look great with dimes, or a differential cover. However an axle to frame mount or a frame itself absolutely not. The old saying “it hasn’t failed yet” doesn’t mean what’s being done is smart lol.
Thank you for nailing the heat settings!!!!!! I cut my teeth on rebuilding heavy equipment then got into to pipe industry wow a night and day difference, but I learned quick how to incorporate HOT AND HEAVY on pipe and it kept me on the big jobs. I used to love when other welders would pick up my stinger and watch them try to run that hot it helped with a lot of X-ray work I did! Great video
Thanks for the kind comments 😀. I am hoping the video helps new welders make better decisions on what to do. Strong welds are good welds, and there is no way to make strong welds on 1/4in+ material with settings meant for sheet metal lol. Sounds like you like to run hot, the higher the skill the hotter you can run 😀.
Very interesting, but more importantly, I learned a few things. So, for those of us wise enough to listen up and take note we should be grateful because I doubt many of us were shown this kind of detail on the different types of weld bead types. Because Mig is so fluid, we are always having to buy time when you run it hot or vertical.
I enjoyed this video. I like to see comparative proof, as you demonstrated so well.
I am not a welder, but own an old tombstone that I play with. I retired from the carpenter's union a while back and wanted to learn another skill. I enrolled in a welding lab class at the local community college. I will not ever be a code or certified welder, but I will continue learning until I feel like I have a level of proficiency I can trust.
Thanks again for the intelligent discussion.
The great thing about welding is you don’t need to be certified or have an absolute understanding of what’s going on to build really strong stuff. It mostly comes down to being as consistent as possible, and using enough heat so that fusion between pieces occurs. Once that’s achieved the strength is already significant.
Welding has as many variables as the mineral itself which pressure heat other minerals present and cooling of the earth when it was created. I am grateful to have found this video and I learned more than I'll retain . Thank you
When I tell people I recently took up welding, I can put 50% odds on "can you stack dimes?" being the next thing they say. That's how I know whether the rest of the conversation is going to be about the technical aspects of welding, or just comparing the cosmetics of my work to things that non-welders have seen.
I'm not a welder; I don't know enough to have an opinion about the "controversy". I can see the differences you describe in the welds and the argument that consistency matters most makes sense to me.
I think it is frustrating when folks - in all kinds of arguments - say you're wrong, but have only anecdotal claims about why you are wrong. Give me your data. What did you test? What were your variables? What was your hypothesis before the test, what were the results, and what did you confirm or contradict?
I appreciate the time and effort to demonstrate the methods, and that you reflect on what you learned because it wasn't what you expected. Not always easy putting something like this out and taking the shots when folks decide to make it personal, instead of a discussion.
Good series, thanks!
Unfortunately, tradespeople operate largely on tradition and anecdotes. There are many cases of this "common knowledge" being proven wrong only now with the advent of the Internet and UA-cam. One of my favorite disproven myths (one that I always felt was wrong) is lifting a file to make it only slide in the cutting direction because "dragging the file dulls the teeth." Some guy on UA-cam made a machine to generate data and test different filing methods. Thank God we live in the age of video evidence! The myths and toxic "working dogmas" in the trades can be exhausting!
Great information for a brand new welder. Been practicing stacking dimes and it's tough without knowing the basics. just a home hobbyist here, trying to learn. Thanks for the info!
No problem 😀. The great thing is you have more info to work with now. Stacking dimes can look really good on say a bbq, but on something that needs strength it’s best to avoid it. Welding is a lot of “making the best decision for the situation”. There are a lot of ways to do things, the most important is to understand enough so you make a good decision 😀
Awesome and informative video as always thanks for taking the time to do this.
No problem 😀
I fully agree, I welded for 41 years and the biggest problem I ever had with people with a MIG is you can make a very good-looking weld that doesn't hold the to the application. You can do so, but you do frequently have to have a gap especially when you get to about 10 gauge or more. But you are correct you cannot do a stack of Dimes with a MIG because the metal is too liquid to hold the profile. I have however done a vertical down and I believe it was on quarter inch in a weld test in class that passed a Ben test. And the instructor was totally amazed and I would not tell him how I did it because I did not want anybody trying to replicate that on a piece of structural. I would do that, but I would not tell anybody how to do it. The problems that can be caused by an inadequate weld in that situation can kill people.
As for motorsports, uniquely, the roll bars were originally designed in a metal that is intended to be welded with a torch and I have welded them with a torch. It's actually a naval standard so that they could weld on board the ship. It will be more than adequately strong for the task. When you start putting mounting plates and the light on, you do need to do some special procedures if you're going to be using a MIG and part of it is learning how to weld at an extremely hot with a wire speed that allows you to lay it in there the way it needs to go. It will work, but you cannot be interested in making a pretty weld, but a good weld doesn't actually look too bad. And sometimes like I have done actually appears to be a stack of Dimes on a one specialty job I did that the welds had to be very I appealing but they also had to hold and it was on a piece of 12 gauge brush stainless with 10 Gage supports on it and the stitches on the welds had to be in very specific play places and only a specific length, but they had to be adhered to the stainless steel stainless quite well. So I used 309 high school and I used a very hot setting with a slow wire where it would actually drip metal, one drop after the other inside the plasma cone, and I could constantly count the drips where that way I would have the requisite length of weld. They actually look like they had been machined onto the metal.
I've been welding 20 plus years and rig welding for 15 of them and this video really made me think about a few things. Great video man.. took a little time to make I'm sure.
It’s all about knowing what happens when you do certain things, so you can make the best decision on how to approach a welding job. More knowledge equals better decisions, and better results 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg absolutely
This all makes sense to me. Thanks for the video!
A really good tutorial. I have learnt a whole bunch. Thank you.
Glad to hear that 😀. As an fyi I have a video coming out by the end of the week dealing with push vs pull with mig, that will have a ton of useful and practical info. Definitely check it out when it releases.
My take away from this (haven’t went to conclusion at video end yet) is that I need to start getting good at stick, lol. With reason, experience and good communication skills you are re-educating the pretty weld believers. Myself included, thank you
I'm very glad I found this channel I started welding at home a couple of years ago. My goal is to weld pipe. I'm 54 in 2024 I've been in the steamfitters for 30 years in the hvac technician division. Having a welding skill set gives me an advantage here in NYC where I work
Pipe welding can be tough because of the constant angle changes and common rods used (6010). The best advice I can give you with that is smooth, slow, and steady is the best way to run 6010. Master the simplest thing, such as stacking beads on top of one another on flat plate. By mastering the simple, the difficult becomes easier.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I heard you say that and if it's not raining tomorrow morning I'm going stack beads tomorrow. Practice start/stops and straight beads
There may be more than one way to do something, but generally there's always a right and wrong way to do it. Keep up the great work!
Some of these dime stackers would spot weld bridges and ships given half the chance.
I suspect the reason some welders like to MIG like TIG is that MIG is relatively easy to use whilst TIG is bloody tricky with a steep learning curve to it. Especially stacking dimes.
When I started Weld school I started with Stick Welding. I remember getting so stressed out of how tricky it was to learn whilst some of the guys where very happy go lucky, smiling every second and laughing all the way through the course.
Well they where studying MIG. When they finished and came to studying Stick, they decided being an accountant paid better...
I did Stick and TIG first and found MIG laughably easy, passing in one and a half days whereas Stick and TIG took me the entire 8 weeks. All at Level 1 so I'm not here boasting.
But I think that is why some like to MIG like TIG rather than simply TIG...
Great video Greg your work is exactly what seems to be missing from Weldtube brother!
I’m not impressed with the beauty of a weld. I do TIG and MiG, very little stick. I actually don’t like the stack of dimes look I get with TIG. It looks too much like 19th century ornamental work. It doesn’t really fit with modern machinery.
Might makes for rushed welds if you “cookbook” (use the chart on the welder). Mine look like “bat guano” then.
Tig works better for thin tubing *in my case.*
thanks Greg. very helpful info.
Thank you for this. When I was in trade school we did these same types of tests to show that the old school stacking dimes style of welding was weak, and why we shouldn't do it. That was 40 years ago, what absolutely blows me away is that this is, somehow, still controversial in people's minds. The jury was in on this many years ago but it still gets taught. I guess it goes to show that people will persist with a bad idea, long after it was proven false, just to confirm their own false bias. Thanks again, great video, and keep up the good work!
Thanks for the kind words and your thoughts. Super cold dime stacking is more prevalent today than ever before. In the motorsports industry it’s literally almost a requirement. I get wanting to make good looking welds, but people are doing it on things that really need strength. I bet it has even proven to be an issue for young welders going into the workforce, if they show up to a weld test ( that gets destructive tested) and stack dimes it’s over lol.
That is a great video, really well explained.
I was never able to stack dimes now I know why..
Knock the settings down to what your machine says is for sheet metal and you will stack dimes all day lol. You can also go a whipping movement to produce dimes, this doesn’t look like the welds in the video but more of a tapered V shape with a pretty flat peak/valley difference. The thicker the metal and the colder the settings the more you get dimes. If only it performed as well as proper settings lol.
Yes, I have a miller multimatic that auto sets the welder settings. I, too, could never get the dime stack look. I didn't realize before this great video that I shouldn't! But I will stop weaving and waving my magic metal wand around now. Thanks for the scientific discussion backed up with the experiments.
That was very impressive. I started wirewelding with selfshielding flux and kept the bad habit of dragging in many situations with MIG. maybe it is how I position myself instinctively that it feels more "natural" to drag.
You said that you dont tell anybody how He has to do his stuff. Let me add "but if he is smart, he listens to you, because you did everything to prove you're right.
This was the first video I felt you were a little annoyed by some comenters. Greg, you've tought us all well. Don't let any comment borther you! Thanks for all!
Don’t worry, I am not annoyed 😀. I had some laughs over some of the stuff. A lot of people get shown bad habits and it permeates everything to the point the bad habit becomes the norm. I am not here to set things right or force people to do anything, just inform people on what they are losing attempting to replicate a look without understanding what’s going on. If someone chooses to continue stacking dimes and running cold to make things look good, their parts will be far weaker. Understanding that will at a minimum allow a person to make better decisions 😀
You're absolutely right. I know from my own expereice the difficulties to overcome bad habits. It is like that weldersglove with the worn Spot on the pinkie partially stickig out and you know that you should replace them. And you keep them because you like them and there is still a lot of life in the other nine fingers. I burned my pinkie badly when I failed to grab my New tig rod and touched a fresh weld. Still have the cloves... 😂
Hey , Good theory and weld testing . I worked in a materials testing research lab, we performed destructive and non destructive testing on ferrous metal welds. For MIG, skill level and technique plays a big part. what you are saying is the reality!
Good job keep it up.
Thanks 😀. Mig is definitely one of those things where the person doing it and technique used can change results significantly. Stick welding only works properly (on say a flat fillet weld) with a tight arc gap, a drag angle, and with 7018 it runs best straight in (without movement). Because of the limited list of things that work the outcome is predictable and reliable. Wire processes have so many more variables (push, pull, contact tip to weld distance, inductance, gas mixtures, mode of transfer/short circuit/globular/spray, voltage/wire speed, etc) that can affect the weld it’s very easy to make some bad choices and get very poor results. That’s why I focus on making sure newer and inexperienced welders focus on running proper settings and testing their own welds to make sure things are where they should be. Using settings suitable for sheet metal to weld 1/4in plate is not the way to go, that’s for sure.
I think you do an excellent job getting to the heart of the issue which is stacked dimes require colder settings in order to for the puddle to freeze quick enough to mimic the stacked dimes look.
I also want to thank you for bringing up what happens when you aren’t having the wire feed into the edge of the weld pool during your root pass.
While obvious when you consider the actual molten weld pool is only a few millimeters in size and quickly solidifies when additional heat isn’t continually applied, it’s one of those critical nuances that can’t be emphasized enough: Make sure that you are getting the heat directed where it’s going to be doing useful work.
Thanks for the kind words. Stacking those dimes is about 70% time spent welding on top of solidified weld 20% welding on the top or bottom plate, and about 10% actually on the root lol. Which makes total sense why in video part two the fusion on the break test showed a really weird sawtooth fusion pattern, the root only fused every time the puddle crossed the root and that was it.
What I don’t like about the stacking dimes is a lot of new welders see it, think that’s the right way to do it, and then mimic it. If it produces a lack of root fusion when a competent welder does it, I can only imagine what an inexperienced welders results will be. Even more so with improper prep. Definitely a bad habit to fall into doing on everything.
The problem is that your arc is what causes fusion, and arc force is what determines the depth of that fusion. If your root is buried under a weld puddle, then your arc is in the puddle, and you're just laying hot filler on cold steel, the arc should lead the puddle fusing the joint and your puddle should follow behind the arc filling the joint as you go... It seems like too many welders just think about the puddle like that magically causes everything to fuse together... my college professor said, "A weld only penetrates the base metal by about 1/64th-1/32nd. The definition of welding is fusing 2 or more alloys together. You can penetrate a joint 100 feet if you want to if there's no fusion, then it's not welded. "
All that being said, we can run mig under D1.1 as a spray transfer and out of position with a pulse mode
After listening to your response to veiwer input, I now know that I choose the best guy to learn from as I'm new to welding. Your videos will form a solid foundation to this trade. Thank you!
You’re welcome. I try to help people as much as I can 😀.
Hi Greg, This video got my attention. So many folk say "always push mig, you get better penetration than pulling". I have never believed that so still tend to pull.
I must confess, I don't always cut the blob off the end of the wire between welds and that blob can make cold start worse in some cases. After seeing this, I am going to reconsider my weld practices before I pull that trigger. This got me thinking now about past welds I have done with Mig on 10mm (3/8plate) or thicker. It also makes me think about welds that have broken on equipment I have repaired. Well done for a great video Greg, it must have taken some time. I for one am not too old to learn or too stubborn to proved wrong, even if I might grumble quitely to myself! 😂
We all have bad habits, no doubt lol. Luckily short arc mig is actually far stronger than many people (including me) give it credit for. No doubt many welds you did, (and I have done) have likely had poor root fusion and other unknown defects. If I wouldn’t be testing as many welds as I have done as part of this channel I wouldn’t know half of what I do now. Kind of like I have done a lot of .035 self shielded flux core welds on 1/4 to 3/8th plate without realizing how much internal porosity is in them, since the surface was fine. Come to find out that’s very common and stepping up to .045 flux core helps solve this issue. Without testing it’s impossible to know for sure what’s going on.
Your video's are great! Thanks for doing them i have learned alot!
Glad to hear that. The big take away should be to focus on proper settings and straight in for things that require strength. It’s also important to test your welds to see where things are at. A simple Cut and etch is not only easy, but will give you insight no video will 😀
Every one could benefit from this video 😎👍👍
You have been doing an outstanding job addressing many specific welding topics including testing those welds based on the topic.
I would be very interested in seeing a demonstration of bringing all these separate MIG welding techniques together (within reason), such as Preheating, Beveling, Run-On or Run-Off plates, Push/Pull, Welder Settings, Wire Type and Size etc. to create an Optimum Weld aka “Putting it All Together”.
I have been working towards building a Face Bending angle iron rig like you use in your vise to do my own test. I just finished it with the materials I had on hand, and I am anxious to try it out on a few practice welds I’ve already made along the way. Hopefully it’s beefy enough!
For me, putting it all together based on this and other videos, My plan is to use 1-1/2” wide, very clean 1/4” plate about 6” long in a T-joint configuration; using the best grounding/circuit techniques I can (for my skill level i.e. newbie), I’m going to try to make the best possible weld I can manage using all the things you’ve taught me.
I’m going to take that coupon, and cut it into 1 or 2 inch sections (hopefully that will eliminate cold starts), etch it and bend it to see what I can learn by analyzing my own welds. I’m going to take what I learned from my test results (review your videos as necessary), and make any necessary adjustments, and practice everything (striving to be more consistent), and repeat that until I have the best possible Results I can manage.
In other words, I’m going to put it all together, and test my welds with a critical eye and an Open Mind…
This particular video, has inspired and motivated me to challenge myself, and I hope this may inspire others to do the same.
Thank You Greg for helping and inspiring me to be a better welder on my welding journey!
Update:
I tested two welds today, one using the standard Push, and the other Pulling as Greg suggested.
I don’t have the ability to measure any forces applied, just my “Armstrong Torque Wrench” I was born with!
The Pull penetration cut & etch was about 10% deeper, and the “Bend to Face” felt at least 50% stronger. In fact, I couldn’t fully break the weld because the plate bent just above the break. I will have to cycle the weld to finish breaking it, but wanted to study it more before I did that.
One thing I learned about my two fillet welds was the penetration of the weld favored the vertical plate. So I need to aim more towards the base plate.
I wish I had started testing my welds long ago.
I learned more from analyzing these two welds than I ever thought possible.
Thanks again Greg!
I just started shooting a video on more or less this just today, and I will implement your ideas. There are many things that can be done to solve the typical weld defects that are universal with mig and stick (less fusion at the start, too hot at the end, etc). For me my solution was to tig weld things that required utmost strength. Tigs strength comes from how consistent a skilled welder can make welds. Without tig as a option (be it that it’s impractical or not possible to use) run on and run off tabs (with a ton of other “tricks”) can be used to solve the issues.
I also have a video coming out soon on beveling plates that will be of interest because that can be of less effect than many people realize. It’s very common for people to bevel say the top plate (on 3/8 plate fillet weld), and think they are good to go. When the reality is it has very little effect in comparison to running a gap.
The truth is the ultimate weld strength that can be achieved in the home shop (assuming equal welding skill) comes from tig. Not because of the wires tensile strength, and not because it has that great of penetration. It comes from the consistency of the process. It’s possible to eliminate virtually all common weld defects (under cut, cold toes, inconsistent root fusion, cold starts, blown out ends, inconsistent weld reinforcement, etc, with tig. The major downside being it’s slow and not useable outdoors.
I will also touch on how perfection isn’t really a needed to achieve huge strength. A perfect weld doesn’t really exist, but being 90% of perfect is often more than strong enough.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for the comments, especially about the TIG aspect.
I am working on all 3 processes, with MIG being the first arc welding process I learned (I learned after Oxyacetylene with my dad 50 years ago), it is the most familiar and easiest to learn. I bought a multiprocess welder to learn Stick welding, and thanks to you, I got off on the right foot, and practice routinely with 6010, 6011, 6013, 7014, 7018 and my favorite new electrode 7024 again thanks to you.
TIG is my Ultimate Goal, for the very reasons you stated and more. I have the basics down, but I’m struggling with arc gap and dipping the tungsten and dabbing in the filler rod. I have coordination issues, but again thanks to you, I am getting much better. I noticed as I practiced and improved my Stick Welding, I got better at controlling my arc gap, my TIG welding improved to. I keep practicing the little things about TIG , in short spurts striving for consistency, and it is getting easier and better everyday.
One big problem for me dipping the tungsten, is not seeing the Arc/Puddle very well, is because my old eyes can’t see through the bright arc and the the gap between the puddle and the tungsten isn’t clear. I was wondering if your new Lincoln Viking 3350 ADV, might help with that. Have you noticed an improvement in arc visibility over your previous hood?
With regard to this particular video with respect to MIG welding, I don’t care if it looks good or like Stacked Dimes (if you like stacked dimes, then learn to TIG). That makes no sense to me that it needs to look good; strong welds should be the focus of all welders, and are what’s important. Most the stuff I weld is simple practice, and isn’t critical in any way, but as you say consistency is the key to a strong weld. I don’t want to develop bad habits, but I do want to be confident that if I ever have to produce a Critical Weld especially with some degree of Liability, I want it to be the very best, strongest weld I can produce. So for me, that is the basis of putting it all together.
I did build a Face Bending platform, and I have been testing my welds. In one simple change of Pulling rather than Pushing, I realized I need to build a bigger stronger test platform because the increase in weld strength is that noticeable! I almost bent my rig, and tore my vise off my bench because it was such a stronger weld!
Thanks for this video, it’s made a radical change in my thinking, and I predict that beveling is not so beneficial as I once thought, and I need to learn the Running a Gap method, which I think will be another huge improvement. I’m really looking forward to your videos on that, or to any of your videos for that matter 😂
Thank you, great video!
What I have learned since I was 15 and I'm 42 now is that if you don't bevel the plates you need to set a gap or you're not going to have full pin this is for thick plate if you do not grind a bevel and a land thinner plate I absolutely do encourage tight butt joints this was a very informative video for those who don't know the difference is your content is right with real world facts and with thinner plate in a manufacturing setting normally you do not see it being welded with wire it's usually tungsten arc welding with no filler just a fusion joint or you see it being welded with pinch welds IE spot welders
I have a video coming out soon dealing with bevels, and it does definitely help depending on circumstances. A small gap on 3/16th or 1/4 steel is a great way to get some more fusion, thus higher breaking strength. The only real downside is it can be harder to keep things square/straight after welding due to shrinking.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg when I was taking the fitting portion of my welding class 20 some years ago they taught me how to tack with Distortion being a help and to always Square my parts with a square and then they taught me the old nudge Hammer technique with the ball peen hammer which every welding technician should have at least one good hammer and I recommend a 24-oz brass or bronze ball pein hammer I was taught to take it out of square and most of the time your tack is going to pull it back 90 so you said it about 5 to 8 degrees off and it should pull Square but most people working in their home garage shop won't be using shims but that's another important thing to fitting is to hold the gap because you and I know the tack will pull down and back because it shrinks in all directions once it cools you got some cool content on here
@derekbryant6137 that is the way I do it.
Beginner welder here and just wanted to say thank you for confirming what I was taught by an old timer! If you want dimes just buy a tig welder
Nice video.👍👍
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Have a great day.
Thanks and you do as well 😀
I've had so many in the off road racing scene say that exact same thing to me "Well I've done it this way for 30 years!" - the correct response to that one is "You've being doing it wrong for 30 years and you still haven't learnt how to do it right?"
Haha that’s an appropriate response for sure. I am not sure why egos get so involved in welding. It takes a ton of skill to be competent at welding, and being close minded and not evaluating what you’re doing is a sure fire way to be stuck with no progress. It’s been fascinating to me at how many people justify doing things a certain way despite all the evidence pointing that it’s wrong. To me it’s all about trying to be the best you can be, and a lot of that requires testing your work and changing things when you find flaws/problems. Less skilled and open to improvement will hit a higher skill level than stuck in your ways and knows everything lol.
All the welding i ever did can be counted probably on 3 hands, but love the video!
Especially showing the results! Very interesting for a complete novice too!
Remember facts don't care about your feelings (nor opinions)!
Universally people never test what they make, which leaves a huge unknown. I knew it was important to show exactly what happens rather than just telling people don’t do it lol. The truth is under conventional welding there is no way to make big distinct dimes without running absurdly low settings for the thickness of metal. On non critical stuff it’s fine (like bbq grills) but anything requiring strength it’s a real bad idea lol.
thank you for your dedication
No problem, I learned a ton doing it so I benefited a lot by the work too 😀.
Being a non-welder, I was told by one of my relatives when I was messing with a welder. Don’t worry about making it pretty worry about how deep your penetration goes. Argue this with a welder that welded something for me that turned out to be really weak that was really pretty, and he said I didn’t know what I was talking about. Thank you for this video because now I know my relative was right melted the metal together is one unit stronger than pretty. I’m not a welder.
It is so easy to hear a catchy phrase and incorporate it as the exclamation point for a process. In welding ,"stack of dimes", and, " if it leaves slag you must drag", plus many others are repeated to newbies as ," direction and good advice", i have done it myself. Thank you for these eye opening tests and comparisons. Today many want us to believe that truth is from a certain point of view or truth is what you make it. However, the truth is the truth in welding so it is in life !!
Like everything in welding there are very few truths and there are always exceptions. So much of that comes from the simple lack of testing on behalf of everyone who repeats welding wisdoms . Had I not made this video I was under the impression that push vs pull would have been almost the same. Yet with my setup, on 1/4 and 3/8th plate, there is more than enough of a difference that I know what I will be doing. That’s why I stress how important it is to do test welds, it’s the only way to know what’s going on for sure. I have learned a ton simply by doing 100+ tests on the channel, I wouldn’t know half of what I know if never tested things. Obviously perfection is impossible to achieve, but a few small details can make a huge difference in strength, and since many are easy to do, it’s worth doing them 😀
These weld strength videos are extremely useful. I'm just a guy with an 80s bobcat learning stick in his free time and I'm constantly wondering "Is x or y the stronger way of doing this?". I don't have a hydraulic press but the 12k electric winch on my jeep is bending the base material and not the weld so I must be doing something right.
Thanks for this.
According to what you suggested, and to my experience, you are totally right. Adding to presented, I can confirm that use of pulsed MiG in spray arc and stringer focused arc ( “ Arc Force”) achieved trough greater arc dynamic settings that cause greater penetration without stacking is widelly used in Europe.
Spray and pulse makes things that aren’t really possible with short arc, possible. You can have your cake (visual appeal) and eat it too (excellent penetration). The unfortunate problem with that is the average machine a person owns here doesn’t have pulse capability, and a significant number of machines people own aren’t capable of spray due to a lack of voltage. Many people here aren’t even aware of spray, or even what gas it uses. It’s really unfortunate because what it offers is an excellent process.
In europe 82%argon and 18%co2 (M21) is very common for home users . Well capable to spray if the machine is also. Unfortunately then limited in position. In the US 75/25 is more common from what I see?
@@sebastianleicht well, ratio 75/25 in US was established in the past for FCAW wires, and than transferred somehow to solid wire , to achieve the axial arc ( „spray transfer“), however, in Europe is FCAW-G not much in use, and what I found as a reason is - ongoing higher costs and the best spray transfer mixture for solid wire. European welding politics are related to bigger investment on the beginning (man must buy Pulsed welding machine), and than usage of cheap solid welding wire during whole machine life span….In the US is the politics just the opposite. Small initial investment and expensive wire afterwards. Under European research of pulsed and spray transfer of solid wire, The best ratio Ar/CO2 was 82/18 founded. If you change for solid wire this ratio, you will in spray arc have results that are not so good, as with 82/18. sometimes will solid wire pulsed transfer is to be erratically if you change the gas mixture other than 82/18- opposite, when you weld FCAW-G wire with other ratios, as 75/25 is , the difference in performance will be more „ forgettable“ . For example, I was able to weld Dual Shield 7100 Ultra wire, 1,2 mm with pure Argon- without any significant difference. I even used same wire in size 1,6 mm with 90/10 Ar/He mixture for thick material…
Cool, I did not know the reason for the differing "common" mixes in EU and US. That absolutely makes sense. 90Ar/10He sounds HOT 😁!
I tried to post a link (was rejected because of ad?) to "irgor welder" where he tested a EWM Taurus to Show what MIG could look like away from shortarc. I think that's an example for pricy machine with cheap wire. 😂 But impressive what these machine are capable of.
Well you got my respect and subscribed cause of this common sense approach.
Thanks and welcome 😀. As hard (and time consuming) as it is, I try to provide actual testing/info to back up information/opinions. I want to see people have the knowledge to make good decisions and hopefully avoid failures. Especially because so much of welding knowledge is based off unverified info lol.
Great video, thank you.
No problem 😀
You can stack dimes while running nice and hot, because I've done it for 20 years. It's what you called the "ripple look" and I do it because it helps me maintain consistent weld size, and my welds always pass nde as well as destructive testing.
Sir, I've been studying swordsmanship for the better part of 20 years. If there's one thing you learn, some people care more about how it looks than what it can do. Happy to learn from this.
Thank you so much so much good information in here especially someone learning
Thanks 😀. I put it out there for people so they don’t just pickup bad habits. Keep in mind too, I am at a decent skill level and cleaned the material before welding. If I had less skill and poorer material prep the welds could have been very weak. Focus on making strong welds and worry about making them look pretty on things that strength doesn’t matter 😀
I kept having to find somebody to weld my go kart for me so I got tired of it and I am now learning and picked up a lot of information from your video. I’m also watching other ones to learn more before I start.
If nothing else - "welding through the pool limits penetration" was worth the watch. I've been kind of assuming a good pool would take care that - but now I am realizing I need to get the arc all the way down to the junction to merge plates properly.
That’s why pulling helps with root fusion. I will be coming out with a video on the push vs pull debate shortly. I think I will answer the question of which one to use when 😀
I make grapples for small diggers . I found your videos very interesting and you gave me food for thought. Thank you
No problem, glad it gave you some things to think about 😀. Becoming a great welder takes a combination of knowledge and knowing what to do with that knowledge. The more you know the better decisions you can make. 😀
Great video, i too was bafooned by the internet experts that stacking dimes and weaving was required. Yikes. Also, if someone says they never had a weld fail, that's proof they never tested one either. I appreciate your work. Thank you!
The hardest part is people really get offended when you talk about dimes being bad. They take a ton of skill and consistency, but the end results are poorly penetrated welds that are weak. Virtually nobody ever tests their welds, and they might not realize what they are doing. That’s why I wanted to make a couple videos regarding this so people understood what they are sacrificing doing dimes, so at a minimum they hopefully make better decisions on when to do it. Not to mention they will hopefully test a few of their own welds to see where things are at 😀.
Thank you for your information and time sir
You’re welcome 😃
Awesome video
Thanks 😀.
Great info
Thanks 👍
You know.. it really does make sense thinking about it and seeing the cross sections. I've only been welding for a few years so my knowledge isn't expert but more outsider still... Weaving with a stitch, the wire doesn't have a chance to heat up or push through any particular section of metal but spreading heat around as you weave. That makes perfect sense now! Weaving could actually prove quite useful with this in mind, maybe for thin material where you need it to hold but penetration doesn't matter as much.
Weaving has to be done on vertical up with short circuit because the pool is so liquid you can’t keep it from dripping. The weaving gives it time to cool so you can stack “metal on metal”. Like you said, a small weave can be a valuable tool on thin material like car exhaust. It gives you the ability to control your heat input at the expense of a slightly bigger weld.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Interesting, thank you for the reply!
Thank you for this very informative video. You are on point with the stacking dimes with a mig on thicker metals. The whole design and point to welding should be on making welds that are strong and meet frequently, finite, and stress requirements. And I with 43 years of welding experience am not impressed with pretty welds, that's is a green horn thing.
You’re welcome. I am hoping the video helps people make better decisions. If someone knows they are making weak welds and accepts it that’s one thing. A lot of new/younger welders copy the look of dimes and don’t realize what’s going on. Definitely a bad habit to get into, strength should be the focus 😀
Lots of great info in this video. Now I know that stacking dimes is perfectly okay with 6010 but not elsewhere.
Glad to hear you learned some things 😀. Welding is definitely complex and it can be difficult to understand what’s going on because there are very few “absolute” rules. It’s so situational and welding process dependent that it’s very easy to get confused. The more you know the better off you are 😀
I've been waiting for this part 2 video to drop. Thanks so much for posting this highly interesting, highly educational, and highly valuable study!
I haven't welded anything in my life but I've been acquiring the gear and knowledge to lay my first bead. This video takes the mystery out of the debate. I feel like I have a fighting chance by targeting MIG welding for penetration as opposed to following ubiquitous unproven claims on the Internet like "never pull using MIG."
I'm finally ready to start. Here's what I have acquired:
* Hobart 210 MVP, wire, and consumables
* 125 cu. ft. bottle argon/co2
* Welding helmet, protective clothing, wire brushes, clamps, magnets, and other accessories
* Cheap Harbor Freight $89 welding table (zinc coated)
* 1/4" flat aluminum plate to put on top of the welding table to diffuse heat when welding practice coupons.
* Cheap Harbor Freight welding cart
* Harbor freight grinder, wheels, flap disks, etc.
* Harbor Freight band saw and band saw stand (for inspecting penetration)
* 99% isopropyl alcohol and navel jelly (for prepping metal and inspecting penetration)
* 60 - 2" x 6" x 1/8" welding coupons
* 20 - 3" x 3" x 1/8" welding coupons
* 50 amp 240v outlet wired in garage. Wow, what a load of work to dig the ditch and do all the electrical work for the whole garage!
After much research, I believe the cheapest online welding coupons are at jflf.org (thanks to Jody at Welding Tips and Tricks for the tip).I paid $98 including shipping for 80 coupons. So $1.23 per coupon vs. Amazon at $2.00.
www.jflf.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=METAL
Thanks again for putting this excellent video together and sharing!
The weldment drawing will specify the type of weld. It is usually obvious if the weld is structural, and as such, needs proper fusion and penetration, and will most likely be inspected. There is really no weld symbol indicator for appearance in reference to dime stacking, there are supplemental designators for the surface profile, like convex for a butt joint that will be ground flush, but this is only best attempted as a consistent bead with no dime stacking. For a fillet weld which will be ground to a specific radius, realistically you would want a smooth fillet profile slightly larger than the grind, with all of the other weld requirements met. The point is this, if the weld does not meet final inspection for penetration, fusion, etc. the appearance is irrelevant. Weldments in joining metals is critical in application to achieve the desired weld strength in meeting the structures desired mechanical strength.
Excellent contribution. Following best practice even on non structural welds will lead to the best results. Attempting to focus on looks can lead to really poor results, and for anyone with minimal skill the results will be even worse than poor. That’s what really worries me, is the trend of people that don’t understand what they are doing combined with replicating really poor welding practices. A positive outcome from that will be limited for sure.
I've already had conclusion, thanks.,..
Great video. I am a youtube taught flux and mig hobbiest. Always looking to learn more. Never heard of stringers before. Had to look it up. None of my uneducated welding friends have ever heard of them either. Seems to be a term arc welders(stick welders) use. Could only find one youtube video when i searched up stringers and mig welding. BTW that one video also tested the strength and he determined stringers are also stronger than weaves with mig welding . Oh for the beginners, stringers are just straight welds with no weaving.
Stringers is a term primarily used in stick welding, however it does carry over to other welding processes. Many people only do one pass welds with mig, and if a lot of metal is put down in one pass (by weaving or doing circles) more than likely it will have very poor penetration. That may or may not be an issue, it depends on what you’re welding. Knowing what happens when you do such things is important so you can make the right decision on how you should weld something. It’s all about making the best decisions so failures are avoided 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg thanks
This was perfect. Very factual and honest presentation, an excellent video. Personally I think short circuit MIG should be limited to 1/4 or less, period. Above 1/4, spray is the way for MIG. Just my 2 cents. Also I'm not referencing out of position here. That's a whole different ball of wax and skill.
Thanks for the kind comment. I tried to present it in a way that people understood what’s really going on, so they themselves can decide what’s right for them. Some people don’t like the fact that dimes will make weaker welds. I wish that wasn’t the case, if the dimes weld performed equally as well as a straight stringer I would do them all the time. Visually they look good but performance they are poor. I also didn’t want to take the approach on crapping on anyone for it not taking skill, because it definitely requires a very steady hand and knowledge of what you’re doing. At the end of the day the results are what they are, hopefully people can make better decisions for their situations with the info in the video 😀
Since I only have a 200 amp wire feed machine, anything over 3/16 I break out the stick machine . Your videos of the penetration on plate made me test my doings. I noticed deeper penetration on plate using co2 but nothing what i get with the stick.
You get a A+ for testing your own work, this is important to know where you are at 😃. CO2 will produce more penetration, as does dragging the puddle. The issue with the never ending mig vs stick debate, is that stick only really works if you do certain things. You cant push it, you can’t hold a long arc, you cant run excessively low or high amperage, etc. that way visually if it looks good odds are it’s a good weld with some fusion. With mig there are tons more variables, and it can produce a ok looking weld with absolutely no fusion. That’s why I focus on having people limit how many variables they throw into the mix with mig. Proper settings and consistent movement can make excellent mig welds. Playing with settings to make mig look like tig is like trying to stack dimes with 7018. No benefit to strength and higher probability of failure. I think the fact 7018 is so specific in how it runs is why so many people make solid welds with it.
I learned something about pipeline welders. They weld the pipes on pipelines very well. We were working on a pipeline project and our truck needed a weld repair. We got permission from the inspector to allow their pipeline welder to repair the truck. It appeared that all he could do was blow holes. I was working as a truck driver. I asked if I could try before it was so bad that we couldn't even make a temporary repair. I was able to fix the truck although the filled in holes looked OK. I really considered them a temporary repair. Unfortunately for the pipeline welder he kept being teased "can you do this or should we get a truck driver. " I wouldn't even try to match him on a pipeline. They simply never weld metal that thin. I on the other hand almost never weld metal as thick as mentioned here.
Pipe welding takes a lot of skill, but the multi position (or even single position) open root bevel is virtually never done in a home shop. They also use rods that have an excess in penetration, so they can get away with a lot of things (like running downhill) that aren’t smart for anything requiring strength. It’s not too surprising that a specialized welder would not be good at things outside of their specialization. It’s funny how someone can be so good at one form of welding and struggle with another, it really goes to show how important practice and familiarity is.
Well, the biggest surprise to me was the increased root fusion with the pull stringer. I might have to start pulling on thicker metal when using mig!
Me too lol. I will do a whole video on it soon and there will be enough testing to really confirm the results. Based on what I saw and how it welded I have no doubt I will be pulling from now on.
subscribed, good shit greg
Thanks and welcome 😀
Re bevelling: not to mention you are going to warp the s**t out of a 3/8 plate fillet joint if you bevel the base plate 1/2 way through. Just try it...
100% agree on motorsports methods. No one is showing off if they're really concerned about the part breaking and potentially killing someone...
I was asked early this week by a student on why you would want to stack dimes. My reply was "fashion." It's a worse weld but it looks cool. It's an instagram weld. :)
Definitely a case of “looks good” doesn’t mean “it is good” lol.
I’m a beginner but I think you’re awesome!
Thanks 😀. I only provide opinions and information, you can turn that info into awesome things with a bit of practice and some hard work. That’s why I make the videos, to help people become better at things so they too can build cool stuff 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I own a ranch and was tired of trying to find welders but now, you are correct, I have lots of cool things planned!
we spray arc with 98%Ar/2%O2, TIG, or use gas-shielded flux core wire with CO2 for (nearly) everything in our shop. with a strong spray you can see the arc rippling like waves so you know it's fusing deep. we have almost 20 guys welding, and it's very rare to hear a short-arc. we fabricate with mostly stainless and mild steel, anything from 18 gauge to 2" material, but mostly 1/4" plate.
No doubt spray is the way to go. It has become so prevalent to see dimes stacked with cold short arc settings on 1/4in plate, than many people think it’s both good work and how to properly weld. Personally I don’t care how a person welds, but I know welding 1/4in and thicker with 16ga steel settings (while doing circles) is a recipe for disaster. It’s hard to approach the topic without peoples egos getting hurt, but the truth it’s not smart to weld like that, no matter how consistent/good it looks.
thanks for sharing friend ...i have been doing shop (some off road -structural frames etc) for 30 years (with no professional training ,but never a failed weld) and ALL of my welds could have been stronger...i was told by a 'trained' welder that pushing was stronger...i am building a snowblade frame today , i will be modifying my technique from now on, hahaha...Thanks again...Yah bless you and yours...doug (cauckistan)
I will be doing a push vs pull test to really iron out which is better for fusion. The welding books I have specify pull produces deeper penetration, and based on what I have seen I agree. From actually welding it perspective pulling clearly has the wire hitting the thinner leading edge, and pushing is very tough to hit the leading edge. Short arc has very little penetration through a molten puddle, so the thinner the puddle the more fusion you will generally have.
I work in a structural steel fabrication shop. It's crucial with structural steelwork to get it right and the welds to be strong enough or else people will die! Stacking dimes is better for corner to corner joints or corner joints with a gap in it because the root can be guaranteed to be fully penetrated anyway and if you're trying to focus on the root you'll just blow through. Everything else I weld in the root
You bring up a great point, an open corner joint would allow more penetration with dimes. I will have to test that to see what I can achieve.
Greg, do you have any reference information that you like that would benefit Engineers or CAD Designers with callouts?
New to your channel… liked that you talked about the root penetration. I am doing a Jeep built, mostly 1/4” material. What is best way to weld the brackets together. I am looking at the Lincoln pro mig 180/ Lincoln weld pac 180. Thank you for your time.
Welcome 😀. With 1/4in material the 180 amp welder will be able to weld it. However you will want to do a few test welds to make sure the weld is fusing things together. You will be maxed out on that machine, but it will handle it. Use .035 wire and use a drag angle. 1/4in material can take a ton of heat so it’s fairly easy to weld it.
Sir, I love your attitude and your knowledge. I don’t often weld thick metals, but when I do, I normally do a normal root pass, and with the same settings, I run another pass below and above it to look like stack dimes. This is only to give the appearance, that other people are looking for. Haven’t found I needed to really back off the settings to do this, but so many people think the stack dimes are sign of a good weld that I find by covering the root weld with a couple of passes of what appear to be stacked dimes. It keeps everybody happy and I know that I’ve ran a good route pass underneath them. Does that make sense?
All the best, Chuck
Thanks for the kind words😀. Stacking dimes on a cover pass to a solid root probably wouldn’t lose much strength. If you are running hot enough settings there wouldn’t be much issue since the molten puddle thickness is limited on cover passes vs a root. It does bother me how much people focus on how it looks and not how it performs. If someone understands what they are doing, and do a cut and etch to verify where things are at, there really isn’t much of an issue. It’s when people mimic what they see online, have minimal skill/understanding, and weld something with any liability does it bother me. A grill/smoker is one thing, frame and suspension parts is a whole
Different thing.
Excellent video just excellent!!! more often than not weaving is simply about saving time & sacrificing fusion. Which is crazy aint welding all about fusion- penetration .now in the feild someone give you a fit up/gap bigger than 1/4" you going to make it work and you going to have to weave it.when i first started welding Stick i ran nothing but stringers like my teacher taught me like the xray test i took required, but when everyone else is weaving "one and done " and your five or ten minutes behind them and boss is looking at you like wtf you going to learn to weave.i agree fact: if your not running at the edge of your puddle you are risking a lack of fusion, in any process. it takes skill to weave and most mig pros will even say i weave for finish work things that are not structural. but its alot harder to run multiple stringers and have it look just as nice as a "Instagram dime weld". Even pipe why do people weave a cap/cover pass because its easier and faster to weave a cap then run two or there beads/stringers that are flush,no undercut and the same height.
There is no doubt stringers are stronger, but sometimes the job requires a weave. Be it for time savings or just to fill in something. That’s welding for you, it’s an imperfect science trying to solve impossible problems lol. To me the most important thing is to know what is sacrificed when you do things differently (ie weave, dimes, etc). If you understand what you give up, you can make correct decisions when tackling projects. Welding a lifting lug for a crane should probably not have a bunch of big weaves or dimes on it. A trailer repair on some scabby material it probably wouldn’t be an issue. It’s about making the best decision to produce a good outcome.
My job had out sourced a fixture, 1/4 square tube, it's job was to hold a heavy die head for plastic blow molding. Stacks of dimes everywhere. I wasn't even involved with it ,didnt care , but to me it's show welds . Especially mig. I
Have 4g aws cert ,and that shit don't fly. People want an artistic look until it gives way and fails . Great video, I learned some stuff . 👍
Glad to hear you learned some stuff 😀. It’s a hard topic to cover because people get angry over it for some reason lol. It takes skill and consistency to make good looking dimes, 100%. However when you need to make strong welds on something there isn’t room for artistic “flair”. Dimes come down to an issue of “it looks good but is weak”, and many don’t want to admit the flaws of it. Which is fine, everyone can choose to do what they want 😀.
This is great content. I would love to see a side by side like this using a straight constant velocity path, a zig zag path, and a small curlicue path, all of them using the proper settings.
I have a hard time getting the sides to flow out without some zigzagging. I generally use the autoset on the Miller 211, just dialing in the thickness.
A small circle or movement side to side on a fillet weld should be ok, provided the weld pool is staying hot. If your bead tends to be a bit rounded or convex, try upping the voltage a bit to get it to flatten out. On vertical up you must move side to side with mig to be able to progress, but vertical up has no issue with root fusion, so it’s not really an issue.
My welds visually look like the "stacking dimes" look, but I don't weave up and down, make circles, etc. I run my settings hot on everything I weld, but I move forward slightly about 1/4 inch, and I pause and maybe even back up just slightly, let the puddle fill up, then move forward again and repeat all the way down the weld. My forwards movement digs into the root deep, and my pause fills up the toe and brings the weld up to size. I guarantee you my welds are just as good as running stringers... What I'm saying is, the results are the only thing that matters. Does the weld hold? If yes, then that's what matters. I "stack dimes" per se simply because it helps me maintain constant weld size and consistency. The real truth is the results are what matter, a d however you get the results is irrelevant. This dudes stringers were no better than the dimes when he etched them, and then he tried to play it off like it wasn't. He simply doesn't know how to stack dimes while maintaining hot settings, and then wants to say everyone that stacks dimes must be running their settings cold to achieve the same cosmetic results. That's simply not true. I run my settings really hot, stack dimes, and have excellent root fusion, and never have I had a weld fail. I only run stringers on small welds like hand rails.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video! I have a passion for welding, and am constantly looking for room to improve. I shared this video with all my coworkers to help our team grow stronger. My question is. What was your pull angle roughly? I’ve always followed either a straight in 90 or up to a 15 degree push angle. But I wanna try drag angles but am curious about what the maximum angle I should stay within should be. ❤❤❤
So the drag angle is mostly limited by nozzle size and stickout distance. Bigger nozzles limit drag angle. Keep the stickout distance around 3/8th (10mm) of an inch contact tip to molten pool. The flatter the angle (in relation to the plate) the more the weld will tend to rope up. For a starting point try 30 to 40 degrees. Also, I am glad to hear you’re investing into your knowledge 😀. The more practice you do, the more information you seek, and the better understanding you have will only be a benefit 😀
I really like the acid tests. It seems spray arc mig is better than short arc. Is there a situation where short arc would be used instead of spray when the machine has the option?
Sprayarc is very limited in position.
my very first welding job I wanted to drag the weld but they wanted oscillation/stacking dimes. Every month we had a weld test on a 1’ long 3/8” T plate that they would cut, etched, and bend to show the customers proper penetration. Honestly I don’t know the exact settings because it was a very old machine and my lead welder at the time helped me with my settings but majority of the time we were always in between 21-23v and it was always pull never push. It took me a few tries with the weld tests at first because I was doing circles. They got mad and told me to whip and pause 😂.
I bet whipping and pausing could still work solid with a drag angle and voltage at 21+. Running 18v with low wire feed with dimes there isn’t a chance of any kind of fusion lol. I bet when you did circles they saw poor fusion lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg it had decent penetration on the sides but not the root and it didn’t look consistent at all. My lead told me to whip it because it made it look more robotic which is what they were trying to show the customer and it actually had root penetration
I read some comments "that mig is lazy", "weaving with MIG is bad", "6010 root with 7018 cover pass is always superior" but I dont think that this is what Greg thought today (and on many more). He showed previously that when bending away from the face shortarc MIG is stronger than 6010 when bending away from the face. He also showed that a 7018 cover can not fully anneal the brittleness of a 6010 weld. Also is mig in the right enviroment fast but definitely not lazy. I think we have to sort out what we are talking about here. It is welding MIG with restricted power (by the machine or the mains) and here stickwelding is clearly superior on thicker steel because you can weld slower and put more heat in one point and penetrate better than with MIG (the thinwire can't withstand the Power and melts before penetrating deeply (which is it's functionprinciple) but if it comes to higher amperage and voltage and even bigger wire (sprayarc) there is a sgnificant amount of penetration. Or a process we call "hochleistungs kurzlichbogen" which may translate to "highenergy shortarc" which has riddiculous deep and narrow penetration and is also a mig-process (lower voltage than spray but a ton of wirefeed). When running your machine on the "hot side" a little weavepattern will avoid undercut on fillet welds without sacrificing all root-fusion. There are also wires for MIG that are the tensile strength of 7018 or above.
There should be no Mig-bashing - every process has it's place. With the limitations in Power the average homeuser has to deal with, an straight beam with MIG or even Stick is the way to go. I think that is what Greg told us over the entire series.
Thanks for writing that and I 100% agree. Wire welding in general is an extremely capable process. On clean metal with appropriate settings the performance you can get with mig on 1/4 to 3/8th steel can rival and surpass stick. The problem with mig has more to do with the person than the process. With stick, the only way to “make it work” is to run enough amperage so it actually welds, use a drag angle so you don’t get slag inclusions, and if the amperage (or anything else) is off you will produce a terrible looking weld. With mig you have so many more variables (push, pull, voltage, wire feed, wire size, inductance, run in speed, different gas blends, etc) which when combined with human error (poor technique or settings) can lead to very poor results. The difference is a stick weld shows poor techniques clear as day. A mig weld can look far better than it actually is. If I could argue one flaw that mig has that is significant is its ability to pass a simple “visual inspection” but perform poorly. Now my mig welds shown in videos have performed as good or better than stick welds. However I have welded on properly prepped plates in ideal situations. On poorly prepped thick plates full of rust and milscale mig will likely be more affected. However simply going to spray arc or bigger dual shield wire solves this.
Realistically with a solid mig welder (220 to 250a machine) that can run spray you have a solid machine that will outperform 7018 for making stuff. 7018 still has a place, it’s portable and works outside. It’s all about using the best process for a job, and understanding how to use that process.
One further advantage of stickwelding is that the weldpool is protected and especially out of position some how suppurted by the slag while solidifying and cooling down - an effect you need a "dualshield" wire for MIG. So yes, every process has it's place.