Taylor V Bracing - My Truth
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- Опубліковано 23 лип 2024
- Since publishing this video I have had a customer who has similar views to myself who part exchanged his Taylor 314CE V for a hand made Auden guitar in my store. The difference in tone was quite extraordinary.
As a result of receiving his guitar I published a follow up video comparing his old guitar to various Eastman guitars of the same spruce/mahogany wood combination in order for you to hear the difference yourselves.
Hope it helps!
• Taylor 314CE V Class V...
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OK, so if I wanted to be really pretentious I would say "The Truth" but we all know this is just my opinion and my experiences so please just accept them as such. No more - no less.
As with all research, question everything you see and hear.
It would be lovely to believe that every development that occured in the World was with our interests in mind but they rarely are.
For that reason I have provided you some really useful research material promoting the V brace by Taylor. Watch the videos and also spend some time reading the viewers feedback too.
From my video and doing further research you will get a good sense of whether V bracing has any relevancy to you personally and whether you want to spend £3000 as a living experiment.
Something to think about - If V bracing doesn't catch on - and they drop them.... what do you think this V bracing guitar will be worth in the future?
Taylor V Brace Promo Video From The Designer...
• How does V-Class Guita...
Taylor V Bracing Explained Via Andertons Video...
• Can Taylor Guitars V-B...
Taylor V Bracing vs 2017 Taylor Via Acoustic Letter (Check out how in the first 2 minute the player states the original model sounded better and perfectly intonated to his ear - that would be his first choice guitar!!)
• Taylor V vs X Bracing ...
There will be more you can watch but this gives you at least an insight into the World of Taylor V Bracing and my thoughts on it all are in the video if you can stand to watch it for 30 minutes!
You’re spot on.
The V-bracing intonation narrative is solely driven by marketing, rather than sound engineering or scientific principles. As an engineer and scientist, I find Taylor's claims to be illogical and in violation of fundamental laws of physics. This is not a personal opinion, but rather a rational analysis rooted in widely accepted scientific principles.
I reached exactly the same conclusion as you: “V-bracing does not offer a solution to a problem that does not exist”.
Hey there Richard, I’m looking to get a Taylor 322e 12 Fret V Class. I was comparing it to a Furch Vintage 2 OOM and the Furch sounded a bit more boxy compared to the Taylor. Can i have your thoughts in it? Thank you :)
Very useful video. I personally perceive the Taylor brand exactly as you say. I own a Martin D16GT and it plays very well after 10 years I purchased it. Guess I was lucky.
Now I am looking at buying a smaller shape guitar and I was thinking of Alvarez brand (Masterwork series): any idea about it?
Great channel and great video!
I really like your videos and knowledge, Richard. I too am a fan of Eastman guitars. Sadly I no longer have the two I used to own.
BUT, I did recently purchase the Taylor Grand Pacific 517 Builder's Edition WHB and a friend of mine who has a very good ear, but usually ignores me when I play, immediately spun round and said: "That guitar sounds very good". I certainly agree. That being said, a knowledgeable guitar salesman I know agrees that he finds the Taylor X-braced guitars are preferable... with, perhaps one exception -t he Grand Pacific 517, which, I think, was the first one.
I'll be in your shop next time I get to England, if the virus scare ever goes away... Good luck!
Taylor's explanation of how v-bracing affects intonation is largely correct.
The fundamental frequency of each string might be perfectly in tune to a reference pitch and the guitar might be perfectly adjusted for intonation at the 12th fret, but the instrument might still sound badly intonated due to tuning differences between the fundamental and the harmonics. Most of us have experienced this with old or badly manufactured strings - a single note can sound out of tune *with itself* if the string has inconsistent mass or stiffness along its length. Most players couldn't explain this phenomenon, but they readily recognise that bad or old strings just seem inherently out of tune, regardless of what their tuner says. The fundamental might be bang on at 0 cents, but the harmonics are all over the place.
There is a mutual relationship between the top of an acoustic guitar and the strings - energy from the strings feeds into the top, which is modified and reflected back into the strings. The movement of the bridge alters the sounding length of the string and introduces significant longitudinal vibration. The speed of sound in wood (~4000m/s) is significantly higher than the speed of sound in air (~343m/s) which can lead to some extremely complex doppler and intermodulation effects within the box. A badly braced top can indeed sound poorly intonated.
V-bracing does not "solve" this issue, nor is it a paradigm shift in bracing design, but it does introduce some useful options for the guitar designer. I agree that Taylor guitars do tend to sound somewhat sterile, but I think that's the flip side of their remarkable consistency. I've never heard an exceptionally good Taylor, but I've never heard an absolute stinker either.
I think you are right to be skeptical and I would agree that Taylor have significantly oversold the benefits of v-bracing, but after studying an FEA model of the bracing pattern I had a real "doh, why didn't I think of this?" moment. It's a clever and elegant solution to some very subtle problems with x-bracing. Most of those problems can be overcome with careful hand-tuning of the top and braces, but that simply isn't an option in mass production.
As regards the tone of a v-braced top, we are well into the realms of subjectivity. To my ears, the examples I've heard do sound markedly better than their x-braced predecessors, but that's purely my personal preference. I think that Guitarist magazine have done an excellent job of illustrating the difference on the 914CE:
ua-cam.com/video/WgivbrQ_lyg/v-deo.html
I think we are coming at this from the same direction. They are sterile - but very consistent in build. I mention this in the video - with a Taylor you know what you are getting out the box - which is again, why they are so popular with shops who want as little hassle as possible selling the guitar.
@@nihilistlivesmatter In reply to your last line. Exactly!
@@nihilistlivesmatter If you want to eliminate the tone that players have been listening to for the past 100 years feel free! There is 1 reason to develop the V bracing - something to talk about - which you need to sell guitars. Its not because its needed - its not because its an improvement - its because they can.
Man, your explanation of the physics are spot on. Ive been thinking about this, but couldn't exactly put it into the correct words. Thank you for doing that, and putting my mind at rest
@@RichardsGuitarshop The Taylor 914ce (with armrest) is one of the best sounding guitars I've played and I've played a lot of guitars in the store I'm working at. The Fishman in the old Taylor guitars was to complicated. Problem is that we tend to view things from the perspective of pro users. The first ES was easy to handle, had no feedback issues and did sound well up to the 5th fret. Good enough for most guitarists. With the latest version of the ES2 I had a hard time guessing that the PU is a piezo. I use the ES2 together with an instrument mic, so I have no issue with the ES. Regarding the intuneness of the v-bracing, don't forget the overtones. The v-bracing is producing less disharmonic overtones, making the note seem more true. To me as a soloist the sideeffect of the plus in intuneness is unwanted: the tone of the guitars with v-bracing seems to be thinner, even tough their projection is better. But who cares about projection, when you are playing amplified. With Andy Powers having reworked the guitars, the sound of the Taylor guitars has changed a lot.
Thank you so much for releasing this video. Ive spent the day shopping for a taylor or larrivee and it helps me understand why the memory i have of taylor didnt quite match what ive heard today from the new taylor, of the same model, compared to the past
Please check out Dowina and Furch on my site... I promise you will be glad you did! World Class hand made acoustics from Europe.
Not as big as a standard guitar so more comfortable to play and passable for both chords and picking. There are tons of cheaper better sounding guitars than this Taylor BB but the size is great. Any suggestions for a similar size guitar which is suitable for both chords and picking to replace this Taylor please?
Thank you for sharing. I was confused. This video cleared a lot of things for me. Thank you again!
3 months down the line ,I'm still waiting for my free baby Taylor, now being told early summer. Mmmm? 'Buy a 314ce get a free baby Taylor ' stated the advert, not 'when we have them in stock'
I've seen the video you mention from "Acoustic Letter" and its awesome. It completely validated my feelings as well. I've played both 814ce V-Class and X-Braced and prefer the X-Brace hands down. V-Class Braced sounds thin and lacks the bass and mids the X-Braced has. I'll keep my 2010 814ce thank you very much!
Yep, totally agree, the bass is gone, my 2015 618e first edition blows the 618 and 818 v bracing away.
I've played Taylors in stores but I never owned one I'm thinking of buying the PRSse acoustic, what do you think about the prs acoustic guitars?
Hi. The PRS SE models are no more than very very average mass produced guitars - one of which featured in a video I did - we couldn't take it in as a part X as the geometry was so poor. There are SO many better guitars for the money - such as a the Eastman AC models - or Faith. Trust me! Give me a model you are considering and I will give you alternatives and explain the pros and cons against the one you are looking at.
@@RichardsGuitarshop This video was very timely as I am also searching for a new acoustic, but the local shops don't have the selections I'd really like to try, such as Seagull and Faith. Most carry Taylor, Martin, Breedlove, and a few lesser brands. I've played the Taylor 814ce DLX 2017 model (X bracing) and did like it. I have to say I do love the feel of Taylors necks. When I tried the newer V bracing I have to say I was underwhelmed. I prefer the X bracing. My dilema is while I do like the older 814cd dlx, I don't like it $4K worth! I have seen some glowing reviews regarding Faith guitars, and wish someone in my area (West Virginia, USA) actually had them in stock, but they don't. Faith's FG1NCE - PJE Legacy Neptune Cut/Electro really has caught my eye. I play in my church praise band, so plugged in sound is important, but I also play alone unplugged. One key thing for me is that it plays well - much like most of the Taylors I've tried (I have arthritis so I use Elixir 10's to lighten the string tension). I'd prefer a 1.75" nut width, grand auditorium style/size, and a cutaway. I'd like to keep the cost under $1500 if possible. What would be your recommendations?
Very interesting video. I've only recently started watching your videos and I'm enjoying them all. Plus, I watch them all the way through! I like your frankness and honesty and I like your slightly haphazard, unedited style. It's refreshing! I've been thinking a long time about getting a Martin and several times I've added one to the basket of a competitor website, only to remove it at the last moment. My own take on V-bracing has always been that it was just a USP gimmick that Taylor could put up against Martin's X-bracing - which itself may be just a gimmick too, I wouldn't like to say. But, having watched your various videos, I'm now thinking about several other brands, and aiming to buy from you. Thanks. More videos please!
Hi Richard, I absolutely agree with you. I was in the market for a new guitar and I was comparing between several guitars from martin, lakewood, eastman, takamine and taylors. Honestly, among the guitars tested I hated the taylors the most. Every taylors I played sounded thin and had this annoying chime in the mids which overpowers the bass and trebles. I don't know how these V-braced guitars will sound 10 years down the road, but for me they are really unbalanced with the mids being too loud and bass that is non-exsistent.
The one thing I do like about these new taylors is that the trebles sound better in terms of pitch on the higher frets, with excellent intonation (at least to me), but I suspect that it is because the V-brace is so stiff they remove the 'overtones' and other frequencies, only leaving the main 'note' and this makes it more in tune, like what you pointed out, by stripping the sound down. This point actually got me thinking "Is being in tune really so important?" Consider for example the ultimate instrument in terms of richness of sound, the grand piano. Every piano key actually consists of 2 to 3 different strings that are tuned slightly differently in pitch (ie they are slightly 'out of tune.'). If I remember correctly one string is tuned slightly sharper while another string is tuned slighter flatter within the same key. Or just ask any professional piano tuners, they don't tune pianos to perfect pitch across every string and every key so to speak. And it results in notes that sounds very rich and in-depth. Maybe musical notes are not meant to be perfectly in pitch. In my opinion, notes sounds the best when it is rich with overtones and 'wider' spectra of frequencies that these V brace really destroys.
The other thing that really bugs me is that there is a lack of empirical data that supports the supposed benefits brought about by these V-bracing. While musical preference is subjective, the stuff that Taylor claims, the 'improved' volume, sustain, delay.etc, all these are quantitative and can be objectively measured. I am not comfortable with how taylor claims it is louder and has better sustain but fails to provide the data to back up their claims.
I have had numerous guitars over the years. Martin, Taylor, Alvarez, Seagull, Epiphone.......To me purchasing a guitar is an emotional experience. The guitars I purchase speak to me when I play them. That doesn't mean that one is necessiarily better than another. For me, Taylor guitars speak to me and I have been playing them over 30 years and have several different models. I have never noted intonation problems with any of my taylors
I couldnt agree more :)
Interesting stuff Richard,I had a v brace builders edition on order with Andertons and paid for it before they told me it was out of stock so I pulled out of the deal and got a Martin D41 which I absolutely love.Out of interest as I’ve never seen one in the few times I’ve been in your shop,do you take second hand Taylor’s in on part ex given your views on mass produced guitars? Genuine question,I have a 618e which I’ve never got on with if truth be told.Keep up the good work.
Hi Stephen. I do indeed yes. My service is naturally based around personal recommendations but also second hand guitars set up beautifully. Regardless of my own views there is always a big demand for Taylor, Martin, Gibson etc used and am happy to supply people a second hand one. Its always entertaining when they do come in however as they rarely sell in store! Too many options that dont cost any more new!!
@@RichardsGuitarshop Excellent thanks Richard thinking of an OM body size this time so perhaps a trip to Stratford is on the menu again
Richard, with having so much combined experience with so many excellent acoustic guitar makers, how would you rate the Epiphone Inspired by Gibson range of acoustics in comparison to Eastman, Furch etc.
I really do not want to sound cynical but I will try and give you an honest answer as best I can ..... oh god hear goes..... "Inspired by Gibson". Well.... Gibson has one of the worst quality control reputations I could mention. They are a greedy horrible company whose own employees often hate the people they work for. A culture of greed and detachment creates resentment by the employees and doesnt lend itself to consistent high quality and proudly presented instruments. If I were to have a new range - the last thing I would want to have it inspired by is Gibson.
However - Having the word Gibson on the headstock - or a closer link to the name - will sell more guitars. I think really thats all you need to know. It ticks a box. An important box.
Sorry.... I didnt avoid sounding cynical :(
As a Taylor owner, I found myself agreeing with most of what you say. Had 5 T5's, the fact that they come and go says it all. I also agree with the V Class bracing, is it REALLY better? a lot of the demo's don't say that to me. Certainly your comments are food for thought.
There’s a pretty well known UA-cam guitar teacher who one day announced he finally bought his dream guitar - a very high end Taylor, I think it is a delux 900 series. It cost him thousands (many) and I couldn’t believe how bad it sounded. He also owns an Orangewood or two, and that brand sounded better. (Very inexpensive certainly compared to Taylor.) But that high end Taylor made him deliriously happy. I guess that’s what matters. Thanks for the review. I used to drool over Taylors, now I have my heart set on an Eastman.
Thanks Richard I like your videos and I appreciate your candor. I think I see people making the mistake of stating this is my truth which would conclude that there are many truths. I don't think that is the case I think people should just state that what they are saying is their opinion and leave it at that. I value your opinion because it is based on a lot of personal experience.
I know there a lot of guitars out there that are not mass produced which are awesome but the problem is they are not readily available to play for all of us. So we as players tend to form our opinions on guitars that we are able to get our hands on and that we can try personally. That being said if we had a chance to try as many guitars as you have been able to we would certainly come away with probably different and unbiased opinions. Thanks again for your work and effort I would certainly go to visit you if I could, thank you.
Great to hear you take on it. I have not tried one yet, but I rarely shop by brand, has to sound and feel good. Doesn’t matter who makes it. But I definitely could never spend a few thousands on one acoustic, as there is so much quality gear for under a thousand.
I agree with you 100%! I really enjoyed your honesty and your video I watched it all the way through. The world needs more people like you! luthiers have been using the x brace design for damn nearly 100 years and for good reason. It works ! And you mean to tell me that Andi Powers has so thoughtfully just created this world class v bracing system that’s going to revolutionize acoustic guitar building? Pffffft! I don’t buy into it either. By the way I do like your selection and acoustic guitars as far as the Eastman, Stonebridge, Lowden etc... I’ve been watching some of Dana bourgeoise videos and my mind has been blown on how he actually voices his guitars. Great video!
Thanks for your opinion. I'll definitely do the research and tests.
I have several Taylor guitars. Thank you for your insights. This will help me be a better listener as a guitar enthusiast.
I tried both the 814ce DLX x brace and v brace. I walked away with the discontinued x brace. Both played like butta...but the x brace sounded much more fuller unplugged than the v brace. A few years from now, I have a feeling the x braces will be sought after. They should offer both. I'm a mech engineer and I cringe how they came up with the idea to go with the v brace....watching water flow by a peer or something like that....whoosh. Regardless, I was extremely impressed with the quality, sound and play-ability of both versions.
100 or so years of x bracing versus 1 or 2 are they trying to reinvent the wheel
Hi Richard, I agree with your point of view. I don’t play acoustic guitars, I spend more time playing classical guitars, but I hear so many recommendations and references for mass produced classical guitars. I have 2 handmade classical guitars and the store bought guitars don’t hold a candle to them. I own an Álvarez CY116 classical and many people swear it’s one of the greatest classical guitars. When played next to my handmade classicals, the tone sounds muddy and the basses sound dead. When that Álvarez is used as a reference point against other guitars in the shop, people say it is amazing. When I play it against my handmade instruments by independent luthiers, there’s a clear cut difference. I understand why you recommend Furch. This is the second UA-camr who recommends furch and I think that’s what I will buy when it comes time to invest in an acoustic
I own a Taylor 110e and have gigged it for years. X braced of course. Bought a new taylor 324ce v class a month ago and it's an amazing guitar. Is it better than an x braced guitar? Idk but I did play a $5000 Martin recently that my new taylor 324ce blows it away.
I think that is largely the problem. Taylor guitars ARE very well made guitars even if I do personally feel they lack soul. Martin are ridiculously overpriced and incredibly variable in their quality and tone. I’m not at all surprised in that situation it would confirm you made the right choice.
@@RichardsGuitarshop yes indeed
It's been 5 years and X bracing is still alive and well!
Given your feelings and admiration for Lowden guitars Richard, would you say that the unique tone of a Lowden has something to do with the "A" frame bracing and the so-called Dolphin cross-braces George Lowden chose to use?
To be totally honest I didn't mention this in my video because the very very last thing I want ANYONE to do is associate a Taylor tone with that of a Lowden! I believe the unique tone of a Lowden comes from the fact that they are made with love and care by people who really want to achieve perfection with incredibly limited numbers made. Lowden have done the 100% opposite to Taylor which is to maintain the original ethos of the very first guitar made, produced by hand. Lowden could have gone down the exact same path as Taylor but the man at the top clearly wanted to keep his product real and true to his personal standards. YET you pay as much for a mass produced Taylor as you do a Lowden! Bizarre
@@RichardsGuitarshop Interesting topic Richard; I've just been listening to George Lowden's explanation of design features, wood combinations and guitar bracing. Clearly he believes his A-frame bracing and attention to thinner, smoother and scalloped cross-braces have a significantly positive affect on the unique sound of his guitars. I wonder if anyone thought his new design concept was "Bullsh**" and marketing hype at the time. Like you, I hate bull and marketing hype, and I certainly agree that much of Taylor's sales pitch is OTT, but I also appreciate good design and positive innovation and their V braced versions do sound significantly different.
@@Lowdenjim I create these videos in the moment. I do so when I am angry and frustrated as I was in this case. Read the mags the hype etc. Even the designer when you see him interviewed looks like he has walked out of a marketing for beginners course. I would not have said BS and wish I hadn't. The entire system that Taylor are in is BS which is how do you pretend a mass produced guitar is also boutique and worthy of its boutique price tag. Comparing lowden and Taylor is an insult to Lowdens inyegrity. They have kept their low level production and kept true to the immense quality of the originals. Taylor are a total sell out. There is nothing about a Taylor I personally enjoy and have literally never found anyone in all my years who would take a Taylor over my recommendations when played side by side so it's hard for me to take them too seriously
I was wanting some clarity on Martin guitars, so thanks. (also liked all rest of what you were talking about, not a fan of Taylors, as it happens, ) thnks. :)
Learned a lot here 👍
This has been an interesting video and discussion. I too was somewhat intrigued about the so called intonation problem and don't like the idea of reducing the overtones in an acoustic guitar to help solve this as Taylor appear to be doing with V class bracing. However, like you Richard, I've yet to play one. I do agree with you that Taylors can sound a little sterile but not all..
I have owned many acoustics over 40 odd years playing including Martins, Taylors, Faith, Sigma, hand built Brook, Recording King. Also Furch. A year ago I decided to spend money and trade instruments in on a more high end guitar.
What did I end up buying? A Taylor.. Why?
One main reason was by now I was fed up buying guitars which didn't have the stability or build quality of today's Taylor guitars. Their excellent neck joint means that if the neck angle is ever a problem, there is never going to be the huge hassle and expense of resetting a dovetail jointed neck as in some other makes.
I am also of the opinion that yes, there are cheaper guitars out there which sound great out the box but at the expense of stability. Built too lightly or not sufficiently braced, the top starts to belly up.
My Furch was the worst! Within a year, the top was starting to pull up raising the action too high and calling for a neck reset. Perhaps an isolated incident? Am not so sure. A friend has a road series Martin dreadnaught. About 2 yrs old now. One of the best sounding Martins I've heard incidentally, the top is now starting to pull up making the action too high. I've seen a Faith Venus recently with the same issue. I've seen it happen with a 00015M and a Martin D-1 I owned.
So I've ended up with a Taylor 424ce-K Koa after trading in a nice Martin and another Taylor. This was after trying out many guitars from all the usual big names. Tone? This was the first koa guitar I'd ever played.
This particular guitar (I tried two the same) has a wonderful deep warm bass approaching dreadnaught territory. Even deeper bass than an 816 I tried, usual taylor nice sparkle at the top end and great neck with immaculate fret work and really just impeccable build quality. A friend with me said the sound appeared to just jump out of it!
A year in with a lot of playing under it's belt, it's still absolutely stable, although I've learned the importance of tying to keep it at a decent humidity level and still plays and sounds very good. There are better sounding guitars out there or should I say different sounding guitars, but these I think are good reasons why Taylor guitars are right up there and why I would be happy to buy another.. I should really try one of these V Class instruments.. If only I had the dosh..
Hi. As the largest Furch dealer in the UK - when I say large - I mean in terms of experience since they have ever been available in the UK (I was the first shop to sell them) and volume (I have sold more than any other dealer by far due to my passion for them). Are you in isolation RE top lifting? No. Was it a fault? No. Can it be avoided? Yes. So the concept of a top being TOO lightly braced is very much personal. One person may be happy to keep their guitar in a reasonable environment IE not too dry / not too wet and reasonable temperature and not expose the guitar to drastic changes. Another person may not be able to do so or care not to do so - they will have problems. I have NEVER experienced a Furch with a lifting top that hasn't settled immediately once left in an environment with correct humidity. Taylor guitars however HAVE to be produced like an iron horse because they are made for the mass market, mass volume and need to be as strong as possible to deal with every environment - also they need to take into account the lack of knowledge many end users have in terms of maintaining their guitar. Taylor themselves understand tone and strength are fighting against each other - The more fragile - the better the tone. Anyone who cares for tone understands this and is more than happy to accommodate the sensitivities of the specialist product they own. I equate it to someone waiting for the guitar when they have bought it from me. One person will moan because they wait 2 weeks. Appauling service - won't come back. The other is overjoyed that we care enough to spend over an hour in our workshop making the guitar play to the best of its abilities. They appreciate a good workshop is busy - and it takes time to get through the system. The first person doesn't appreciate the work we do - the second does. This is exactly the same with the Furch body bracing. One appreciates the sensitivities of getting the best tone - the other doesn't. It is not in Taylors interests for you to appreciate this fact so they will talk about "structural integrity compromises" - Its their way of scaring players into buying a robust, solid framework with less tone - As it suits their volume approach.
@@RichardsGuitarshop I understand what you are getting at Richard. Responsiveness and structural integrity is a bit of a trade off with mass produced guitars. And yes, Taylors are perhaps built more solidly to withstand the effects of temp and humidity changes. Perhaps living in SW Scotland is worse for guitars than other parts of the UK! All I know is that I could never get the top on my, I'd said Furch, it was actually a mahogany/cedar Stonebridge (same guitar I guess) to come back down to a decent level.
Tonally is my Taylor inferior to the Stonebrige I had? I'd have to say no. Subjective of course but I find it beautifully balanced and refined with a warm deep bass through to a bell like top end. Though I think this particular one is a bit special.. I can honestly say that for me looking for a comfortable do everything guitar, this is without doubt the best guitar I have ever owned.
If you can be bothered you can hear this particular guitar here:
ua-cam.com/video/lR6tLgYyJ8c/v-deo.html
Best listened to with decent headphones. Only a little reverb has been added to the raw recording with a Zoom H2. Regards, Graham
Richard, so what’s the best acoustic brand in your opinion?
The on you fall in love with.
Richards Guitars I thought you can help more than that. I have to try many guitars to fell in love with one of them. I hoped you can narrow down that number as you sound very experienced in that area.
@@zrkolleyt To be fair - I would suggest you look at my videos? I only do videos on guitars I LOVE so this would surely be a great starting point. If you need specific advice my live chat is on nearly all hours on my site - as it is right now! See you there! PS. There really is genuinely no such thing as "best brand". Its very much down to your needs, price point etc. etc. There is no question though with a few questions answered I can definitely confidently point you to guitars you cannot fail to love too!
Great Video! Would like to see a review on some Lakewood guitars!
Are you going to dump the x brace?
"Get back on track Rich." Fun!
I haven't actually played a Taylor V braced guitar, but every recorded demonstration I have heard sounds excellent - the notes are all even, they are powerful, they sustain well and the sound is very musical, exactly as Taylor are claiming. I think they have made a mistake in choosing to say the V brace system improves intonation. What they are talking about is the way in which the guitar reproduces harmonics with clarity and accuracy. However as I understand it those demos are made with selected guitars from Taylors most expensive range. It remains to be seen if they can make V bracing work consistently across their entire range.
I’m so happy I found your video, it was so informative! I’m looking for my dream acoustic at the moment, would you say Furch guitars are the way to go? I should also mention I’m a solid Mahogany lover as well... oh and most likely 12 fret 000 body size also.
I very recently purchased a 914ce LTD with Bocote back/sides, with V-Bracing (2022). I have mixed feelings about the V-Bracing. I think it achieves largely what it sets out to achieve: more consistent tone color across strings, more consistent volume across strings, better intonation, better projection.. just more accurate overall I'd say. But when I first played the guitar I did not like it that much. The tone seemed distant and sterile, and the sustain was not as really anything to write home about (although I do think the sustain is more consistent up and down the fretboard than other Taylors I have owned, which seem have sustain shortage on some strings/frets, especially the 6th string fretted at the fifth)
Interestingly, when others played the guitar and I listened, I thought it sounded great.
At any rate, I tried other Taylors and had eliminated the 914, largely because of the above "sterility" and the very high price of a Limited (the Bocote is gorgeous by the way). But oddly, as I played the others, that originally I thought sounded better, they didn't sound so great after all. Yes, some had great sustain, and others had a boomier bass, and some chimed better, but what really stood out to me is how inconsistent they were and how they each had little weird things like an overtone on some strings but not the others. In short, the 914 made me become aware of their shortcomings.
I then went back to the 914 and it was an "aaah moment" as I realized how "perfect" the sound was.. consistent in so many ways, no stray sounds or overtones, just evenness every way you could mention it. And after getting the other guitars charms out of my head I ended up thinking this was a great guitar. And I bought it.
Since then I've had moments where I've thought "Why did I buy this??" but then just as many other moments when I think "Wow, this is the one".
I've thought about naming it "Engima" because of this. But I'm also noticing that I'm playing my other guitars less and less.. there is just *something* about Engima that keeps me going back...
I’m trying to figure out what the bracing has to do with intonation.
Dear Richard, what has been your experience with Gibson? :)
lol! Watch my videos on it!!!
Find it hard to believe that in the history of making guitars that every possible variation of bracing has not been tried at some point. It's like saying x bracing was the first and only attempt at bracing.
I agree with your points. People sensory vision, hearing, taste seldom approach the degree of detection that meets what is being sold to them. I once sold speakers and amps systems. When I did a blind test most couldn't hear the different between a modest and expensive costing systems. The specs on the expensive system looked dynamite on paper however did fall on deaf hears. For instant 4K TV is rubbish because the human eye doesn't have the physical ability to detect detail at that level, that right. I am a neurologist and should know. Hearing is the same way, perfect intonation to whatever that means, degree of precision doesn't exist to our nervous system can't match electronic measuring devices. As far as intonation the string is the main energy and intonation center that is intoned directly. However, sound waves propagate at different wavelengths or harmonic multiples off those adjusted strings and move into different parts of the instrument thus giving various intonation centers their influence is vanishingly small when compared to the main influence of the actual string intonation. Yes I have played and listen to the V system and hear a difference as I would between any two guitars. In the end it comes down to what pleases the ear of the beholder. The ear knows nothing about the theory only about that it hears which is more actually correct what the mind thinks it hears which may not be exactly what's going on anywhere else as in the ear or in the instrument if you get or not my drift. Cheers!
Rich, It’s about time we’ve seen a video about bollocks in advertising. Loved your video so much I watched it twice. We’re always hearing about the same shite, different product these days. Standard X bracing is my personal favorite on a Martin or a Taylor. Even my older Martin D-28 has standard X bracing, and I don’t feel the need to buy a forward shifted/prewar dreadnought. Thank you for your point of view and experience. Now we need to hear a similar observation about pedals.
Great content...I did watch the whole thing btw!
I have a Big Baby Taylor which I love but I have other brand guitars which I love as well. I am always open to trying other guitars and let my ears and how it feels be my guide and not the brand.
I recently played a V-class 314 at a local Guitar Center in Nashville and found it completely underwhelming! It sounded thin and sterile to me.
I totally agree with you that the whole V-class bracing thing is more about marketing than anything else!
If someone likes how they sound and that's their preference, I respect that, but for me I feel the X- bracing brings out a more complex range of overtones which sounds considerably richer!
Well yeah it's opinion not truth. Odd that anyone can have reached middle age without knowing the difference. Pontius Pilate struggled too with the idea that there's one truth but lots of things are a matter of opinion - although to be fair to PP he was saying it to a guy who heard voices telling him he was the son of god. Although if you can tell something is or isn't good without hearing it live or playing it you've a set of special skills. I know a fair amount of youtube videos go through the motions of pretending you can hear what it's like before you order it online but it's a mistake to think that works. Bottom line is, the better that mass produced guitars get the less point there is to people selling the others. It's like Plek - if Plek works and if Plek is needed and once you can make Plek so that it doesn't need a tech to hand hold it, the moment a factory like Cort added Plek technology to their production line most of the reason musicians were paying for boutique guitars would disappear (and a lot of guitar shops with them) - you'd probably still sell expensive hand crafted guitar shaped furniture to middle aged people with lots of money who can't and don't play them though but most musicians are skint.
"I'm not a physician, so don't shoot me if I get this wrong, I'm bound to get the wrong". Physicist!
Did I say that? Add it to the list of verbal faux pas!
Appreciate your opinion. We look for differing opinions on here so carry on. 👍
If v-class truly is “brighter and thinner” it may be something to consider if you are looking into owning a Taylor with a hard wood too such as mahogany or Koa but not wanting SO much of the lower/warm sound. Just a thought.
Nice one mate
I played 3 v class braced guitars,...They were very flat sounding, and lacked volume and sustain compared to what I myself seek.
Perhaps their best purpose is an active and crowded loud stage where the signal from the acoustic will be put through as much filtering as a pop stars vocals but.... at that point what is the point?
As a builder and study of acoustic guitar construction I see future developments possibly enhancing what has brought us to this point in history, but I believe that path is quite different to the direction Taylor has gone with the v class system.
I have a Taylor 310 which I got back in 2002. It’s been played within an inch of its life all over in hundred of gigs and thousands of lessons, it has dings, the odd blood stain and it sounds phenomenal. However I have played on of the much higher end “bling” models and that was just...meh. I think I got a special one, but playing them in over time really does do something. (Not sure what the new ones are like though)
Amen brother purchased my 310 Nov 2001 and to hear her today is this side of heaven!
Those woods will only improve over time. A new guitar will never replicate it.
You have a valid opinion and I appreciated all the honesty. I have owned 3 Taylors and always thought a Taylor was the best guitar ever made based on quality, price and playability. I sold the first two and got my third one which is a Mini GS mahogany for travelling and every day playing. I thought this guitar was the best ever, better than the previous 2 that I have sold. This Christmas I was thinking of buying the AD22e and I believe this model have the V-bracing. I have compared it to the 000-15M of a Martin at the same price point. I did a lot of researched and thought at one time, why would Taylor changed from X-brace to V-brace. Why would anyone re-invent a wheel? I tried every AD22e I could get my hands on, and they all sounded the same and play the same. I did the same with the 000-15M and like you said, they are not consistent with their tone. However a few days ago when I got a hold of a brand new 000-15SM. The Martin was on another level and I ending up buying it. I came across this youtube video of yours and made me feel so good knowing that I bought the right guitar in my opinion. I agreed with you Taylor use the V-bracing as a way to create a new and improved way of building guitars that will differentiate them in the market. People will always buy a Taylor for their unique tone and others will hate them. I for one, have always wanted a Martin and have now found the guitar of my dream with the 000-15SM. Here is the question for you. the Mini GS by Taylor is their best seller since the day they were released. They have a C bracing which was a concept by Andy Power, how do you explain their tone coming from a small body? I want to hear your opinion on this. Thanks
After really learning about the tradeoffs we make with equal temperament tuning, and really becoming aware of the dissonances in our harmony in western music, I’m particularly grateful Taylor is thinking about the problem with intonation and the guitar resonating in tune with the stringed notes. I personally blown away by how I’m tune my v-brace guitar is compared to any other guitar I’ve played. I don’t say that lightly. Acoustic guitars are not instruments that are known for their intonation. And while the v-bracing doesn’t address equal temperament, it at least makes the tuning as pure to the equal temperament as an acoustic guitar can be, I think. As opposed to the guitar body resonating at destructive frequencies at different locations on the fretboard.
Hi!
My truth: I like Taylor guitars and after trying the V-Class models (all the way up to 814ce):
- V-Class has more sustain but nothing you can't live without;
- V-Class has less "dead spots" around the neck but again, nothing truly "magic";
- V-Class lacks the "bass" very much.
I prefer the X-Bracing due to the fact that V-Class sound to me with "less" personality.
I don't agree with you when you say "Taylor Guitars are sterile". I can understand that, however, if you refer to V Braced guitars.
This is subjective so what works for you, might not work for me in terms of personal taste. But to Richards Guitars point, when I think of "sterile" I think of balanced tone where all the notes ring the correct pitch, sustain about the same but lack any real character beyond that... To acclimated ears who have put hands on a lot of Martin's, Gibson's and boutique builds by Collings, Hus & Dalton, Santa Cruz, Lowden, etc.. Taylor's have "that Taylor sound". Bright, balanced tone, known for being easy guitars to be played with excellent intonation and reasonable quality tone, but not loved much by truly great players (I don't know one who prefers Taylor over other brands, none of my favorite players do) usually go for tone first... FYI I mention Lowden, Bob Taylor was a big fan of Lowden guitars before he designed his Grand Orchestra model, which is heavily inspired by George Lowden's O. Bob Taylor's biggest contributions to the guitar world were perfecting the bolt-on neck joint (or at least convincing the world that perfected it, again to my ears the tone isn't there) and of course automation in manufacturing to improve his margins.
I like the v class very much. It has incredible intonation. Now if you think it lacks bass I went with a 324ce and it has a mohagany top and it really brings out the bass sound. Is v class better than x? It’s not better but it’s certainly not worse and far from bullshit. Especially to those of us that have played them and spent a pretty penny on one. I think many people are just jealous too of Taylor’s success. Great company.
@@R.L.Humpert I have a V-class 324ce as well and I agree with you 100%. I think spruce-top v-class Taylors are generally inferior to their x-braced counterparts but a mahogany or koa topped v-class Taylor sounds amazing.
Thanks Richard,as it's always good to see both sides of the coin. I totally agree with you, that V class is not almighty. So according to your opinion, do you think that there is some model in Taylor lineup that V class really improved? According to the comments , people always state that V class improves sustain and intonation, but degrades the bass expression and Taylor known boomy low ends. So based on that and also what I've heard ceder and mahogany tops models can get some improvement by V class (e.g. 514 ce) but for Spruce top models especially with non Rosewood back an sides V class can be true tragedy. What do you think? Thanks for your feedback :)
I think it’s a matter of preference. Tone is subjective and it is fine to have your opinion. If you like it buy it if not don’t. I like Martins depending on the woods used in construction. I like individual guitars by how they sound to me. I like some of Martin guitars voicing and at the same time I can appreciate the different tone of Taylor. All is good.
Visual Paranormal Investigations a musician would agree with you. Guitar collectors and blind sheep wouldn’t. LOL. 😂 😆
Thanks for that, it's easy to get sucked in by the marketing!
So, I've tried four V bracing Taylors and the only one that was above expectations was the AD27e, I tried 2 324's and a 322 and I was painfully disappointed. I just returned the 322 I wish Eastman made all solid Mahagony guitars consistently and for left handers. I have a E10SS and am waiting on an ac322ce to arrive, but the E10SS is one of the best guitars I've ever played. I posted a V class question on a Taylor forum because I questioned if the V class bracing was the issue. I have a great 314 from 2004 and I had a 2001 114 and it was off the charts. I'm glass I'm not the only one questioning the V bracing.
Excellent video. The problem for most of us is that we don't listen with our ears, we lust after something with our ego... and after years of saving for that special thing, our personal investment in it far outweighs the cost. For many of us - whether it's a guitar, a car, a house - once we own it, any form of critique is taken as a personal attack. At the end of the day a guitar is a musical instrument and logically any choices between guitars should be based around how they sound and how they inspire you to pick them up each day. I've been a guitar snob for many years and it's taken me decades to arrive at the conclusions that you make in this video. The best guitars are invariably not the most expensive, the oldest, the most sought-after or the most hyped; nor are they the cheapest. People really should go into therapy before they consider buying anything that they perceive as valuable.
Just watched the same video with the 2 guys comparing the V and X Taylors. The player did qualify his opinion later in the video, saying that for playing out the V braced guitar might be better, since you can control the bass (or lack thereof) better. The X-braced guitar, he thought, would be better played acoustically, or with other instruments in a group setting. But, at least acoustically he preferred the X-braced Taylor. I own a Taylor 614ce, and I'm selling it. I don't like the neck, but, more importantly, I don't like how it sounds electronically, and I bought it to play out. It's ok when played acoustically. It's a nice contrast to my D28 when I record, but I'm buying a Martin D16 E to play out with, and I can't afford to keep both. I find the Taylor to be well made and beautiful, but a little thin and high-ended. I've had my D28 for almost 50 years, and I prefer the sound of the Martin. And I really prefer the Martin neck. I fully agree with Richard that your average listener, and even musician, isn't going to fret, so to speak, over a slight flaw in intonation.
I agree with everything in this video. Play before you buy! Had a Taylor 214, couldn’t keep the action nor the intonation consistent due to the screw on neck system on all Taylor’s. Most high end Gibson’s I played sounded like a cardboard box. In short, my Martin D-35 2007 is a tone machine. The build quality is excellent that includes a dovetail neck joint and has never needed set-up. Having said that, every Martin is different.
Always interesting... I remember your Taylor days... the only one i liked was the baby Taylor.
Spot on
Hi Richard, I totally agree with you about the Taylor V class guitars which have been hyped so much about better intonation and better sound production. What I can say from my end after listening to so many Taylor guitars in the past one year, is that V class Taylor guitars are unable to produce its typical lovely Taylor signature sound anymore. I already expressed my dislike of Vclass bracing which has spoilt the true signature Taylor sound. I thought I am an erratic person as majority seems still approving Vclass bracing in Taylor but I still have nostalgia as to how non Vclass Taylor guitars sound like before.
This is just another tonewood type argument in solid guitars but in acoustic guitars. I've got a Levin guitar I bought in the seventies. Its been smashed so many times I stopped using professional expensive services and with books and more importantly internet instructions I now do it myself. The old Levin still sounds great bur so does the small body Harley Benton electro I bought for £180.00 with fishman. So what I'm saying is don't get ripped on brands. Richard I've rambled yeah your right.
Love your videos and your cynicism too, Richard
One of the problems of being left handed is that most guitar shops (Richards guitars being the exception to this rule) dont stock that many lh guitars so that means lh players are more dependant on guitar reviews than rh players. Yes you still get the chance to hunt down the final consensus to ensure it works for you but you can’t as a lh player review some of the “also rans” unless you have a lot of time on your hands and are prepared to travel. So many marketing ploys around for most things you buy that reviews are an essential part of purchasing items in this day and age but guitars are a very personal thing and tone for me also needs to match up with playability as too many acoustic guitars are not play friendly.
I watched a review of new range of acoustics recently ...And i was astonished see that a shop was selling LH models more than RH Models .
The Tooling is the same used to make any guitar and yet why in the chuff are we LH folk blatently charged more .
And the irony is we live in a era where companies can't discriminate against folk for all sorts reasons .. but it's fine n dandy for shops to charge more because the person is Left handed .
Good point, charging more for lh items should be made illegal.
totally agree with what you are saying, I have a taylor gs mini which l love and have a Gibson j36, different sizes and sound and not over expensive , and you can spend thousands on an acoustic and electric guitars. Then you get sellers like harley Benton coming along that sell guitars at no money at all, which are not bad sounding. my point is, you may be a play at home guitarist, like myself, who does not need to spend a fortune on a guitar. however, I still love guitars that are well made, who ever the maker is, and l think most guitarist are like me. l'm 70 now and have been playing a while and when guitar intonation became the new big idea, I did not know what they were talking about! not all new guitar concepts are bad and we do live in a capitalist world which has given most of us a good life, so if guitarist want to buy v bracing guitars and have the money, so expensive, so be it, but its not going to make them a better guitarist. just found your site and really enjoy the chat. thank you.
I think it depends on the guitar and yes it’s all subjective but strange I have Martin d28 Marquis beautiful guitar but I love the mass produced Taylor 224 too even more so than the 814. And now I’m in love with Cort earth mini Adirondack topped ebony fboard. This is amazing guitar that’s 225 bucks hand crafted in China. I get more compliments on that than all. The sound is warm yet articulate. My only gripe is the frets edges need sanded but otherwise 👍
I commented before about 8 months ago and since then, in my search for a dream guitar, I ultimately purchased a Furch Yellow Master's Choice Gc-CR.
Anyone who suggests, as I've seen in some comments, that people are jealous of Taylor are making a statement based on bias and emotion.
I am not a Taylor hater, I actually own a Big Baby Taylor and love it. It's a great guitar for the price and I'll never part with it! Because of that, purchasing a higher end Taylor was my initial goal!
But the Furch, which happens to have X- bracing, simply blew away any V- braced Taylor that I've ever heard!
Why? Because there are a variety of factors that contribute to the sound of a guitar. The bracing is one very important factor, but also the way Furch voices their guitars, their overall attention to detail in every aspect of the build, from the tone woods, to the system used to join the neck (CNR), to the type of finish used etc. It's the combined synergy of all those elements!
V- bracing to me seems unfortunately like a gimmick. I was so excited when I first heard about the V-brace and when I finally played one I felt disappoinment both in the sound and in Andy Powers and the way he hyped it!
He sounds very passionate in countless videos about the whole development, how he was at the beach to go surfing and was inspired by what he noticed occuring in the ocean which was a revelatory moment etc...
But I had to let my ears make the decision not the hype and at least for me the sound was really thin and unidimensional.
The Furch on the other hand sounded three dimensional, resonant and rich, and that's why, when I was choosing my dream guitar the Furch was hands down, no contest, a superior instrument.
If there are folks who love their V- braced Taylor, I respect that is what speaks to you. Even in the realm of Furch, Cedar speaks to me more than Spruce, and beyond that, Cedar- Rosewood was more appealing than the Furch with Cedar-Mahogany. But still, every all-solid Furch I've played or heard has that three dimensional, resonant quality.
So ultimately it's personal choice.
But the notion that V- bracing is intrinsically some magical thing... That feels like a snake-oil sales pitch!
The grand pacific is absolutely incredible
Agree with you about Taylor’s expression system Richard. I have a Taylor 414 Ltd edition rosewood which had that system. Didn’t plug it in much as I didn’t like the sound. Needed to plug it in for a gig one night and whoomph, nothing. I’d been told by other owners that this was quite a common occurrence. Taylor couldn’t fix it as they no longer carried spares. They did however take the guitar and replace the whole system with their current ES2 and levelled the frets and some other stuff for about £300. The ES2 is a much better system and I now love that guitar. Taylor make excellent guitars and I have 3 of them but I’m now looking at Furch and Dowina.
I personally think the new grand Pacifics add a new tone and a new edge to the acoustic world. All the guitars I've owned and played these new gps for my ears and feel and connection are above and beyond and are very amazing. I still own a few x brace guitars and they work and will never die out. The new Taylor's v bracing on the gps to me sound like older guitars rearshifted x brace but more on point and focused.
Nothing to fear I'd say.. let them do what they do as it's working. Variation in the acoustic world is more than welcome.
I agree with you for the most part, except for the pickup portion.
Idk about the origin Expression System pickup, but the ES-2 and ES-b are clearer than most Fishman Piezo picks that are widely available.
The sonitone, sonicore, Matrix and presys systems sounds rubbery and muddied.
I just saw one of Anderton's videos on the Taylor V-bracing and it was the first video of someone demonstrating a Taylor who could actually play! Most of the demos on American guitar shop websites feature people who can't hold down a bass note to save their lives. Whether they're playing a Taylor, a Lowden, a Furch or anything else, their bass notes sound like dull thuds. I played a 314, I think, at Anderton's and was impressed by the sound quality; it was definitely *high* and bright but I don't think it was soulless or sterile. But most of their high-end guitars were dead because the strings hadn't been changed forever. I was seriously thinking of getting one of the 00-28s that were on special offer but it was underwhelming.
Sold Taylors Martins Gibsons Guilds in the 90s and many Taylors would come back cracked on the front seam and Taylor scolded the buyer for not keeping them humidified. Was a dry climate. As far as I know, most daily players keep their guitars out. If you can not build a guitar that won't crack... Plus yes, they were consistent, but just really weak sounding. They were gorgeous though, that is for sure. Everything else needed set ups and stuff, but they were built better and had the sound (some better than others) that was expected from each brand. I recently tried to talk a friend out of buying a Taylor 800 but he did. He bought an 80s Martin a few months later, trying to sell the Taylor now.... I played his Taylor when he got it and I liked it I guess. Played his Martin and I could not stop playing, it was amazing and inspiring, as almost always. I mySELF then went out and bought a Martin, it had been a few years, I had forgotten! It's killer. Yes, we sold a bunch of Taylors too, they were really popular and kind of the new kid on the block and great marketing, Leo Kottke, etc......
One thing FOR Taylor is some people say they like them better for singing because it does not get in the way, and I have heard some recording people say they are evenly balanced and easy to record in that aspect, some acoustics are boomy and hard to control, so there is that. I had no issue selling them until the crack thing stared happening. If someone falls in love with a Taylor what can you do, and their heroes play them, you know, its cool... Easy to record, good for singing, was a selling point then, or we made it up, can't remember!
Coming to this video late. Do own an 812CE but it’s nearly 30 years old and I think the age helps. Not going to say you’re wrong though. I’m sure there are much better guitars out there. You’re right about over-tones. The mixture of harmonics makes the waveform (character, tone) of an instrument. Without them all instruments would only create sine waves and you wouldn’t be able to distinguish a guitar from a cowbell. There may be some reasons to try to dampen certain frequencies to avoid feedback (see notching on some pre-amps) but trying to ‘fix’ intonation ... marketing mumbo-jumbo.
Richard:
I appreciated your viewpoint regarding Taylor's V-Class Bracing offering. I currently own 2 Taylor Acoustic Guitars, a 615CE (15 years old), and a custom build Jumbo (9 years old). Both guitars are absolutely lovey, play very very well and produce rich tones which please my ears. That said, I have other acoustic guitars that have unique voices, that too, sound amazing. In my lifetime of playing, and I'm 59 years old having began playing when I was 8 years old, I've learned that if the guitar fits me, if it feels good in my hands and plays easily, I'm going to want to play it. With respect to the hearing issue to which you commented, that's me; I'm that older guy. The frequencies Taylor is claiming to isolate are no longer available to my ears. If another player's hearing is capable of receiving those finest of frequencies he/she might appreciate the V-Bracing system. Thank goodness there are so many guitars from which to choose. BTW, I really do love my Taylor Guitars.
Chris
Indianapolis, IN USA
Hi! Thanks for your really interesting comments. Really appreciated and thanks for watching.
I compared a v brace with an previous version when I bought my 714ce. I made the correct choice between the two, but now wish I hadn't bought it.
First thing first Guitars have never bin Intonally Perfect when playing different Chords. They have just bin close enough for all to tolerate that's why some chords always sounded tighter than others that being said Taylor decided to fine tune the intonational Parts of A Guitar Discovering that the V-Class Bracing Allowed them to do Just that. On the Beautiful X Bracing Guitar what you are hearing is the wonderful Vibrato imperfections which gives you that Vibrational Tonal differences that we All Love. The V-Class Bracing Strips All those Vibrato Imperfections that Most of us Love to here From A Guitar the problem when doing this Now you end up with A Guitar that ends up sounding to Perfect crisp & to Clean Sounding like A Robot Sounding instrament Losing the Emotional Parts of the Guitar what Talor needs to do now is Bring back some of that imperfections Vibrato Sound to re-introduce Emotions back into there Guitars & while doing so they will beable to control what Vibrational tones they would like for each Series of Guitars Making the Taylor once Again A Top Dog in the Line up of Guitar Companys. ofcourse these are Just My experiences & opinions so what's everyone's Take on this how do you think The V-class Bracing will effect the industry. Do you think there will be other companies jumping on the band wagon creating there own Percise Acoustical Instrament. Or will they stick with tradition.
I have compared a 314 x braced with a 314 v braced, and I liked the x braced better. However, it was the complete opposite with the 814. The 814 v class sounded better to my ear.
The intonation issue is not as you described. It is not the strings or even the position of the chords/notes that you play. So the idea is that if you play a G or C across multiple positions up the fretboard, the V-brace stabilizes the notes in a way that allows them to have a good balance of sustain and volume and maintain a solid tone for each note. I liken it to a standard light bulb that has a broad range of frequencies and a laser that has coherent light. The coherent light has more power and focus. This is what I got from all of this jargon. I have had X braced 814 BCE's and am going to try the 814ce. We will see. I do appreciate your views and experience. Thank you for them.
Very interesting video. I have a Big Baby Taylor and have to say it has a great neck for playability but the sound is too bright and even harsh at times. I bought it for the body size as it is dreadnought but ca
I was at the unveiling of the new Taylor V brace guitars and had the chance to make direct like for like comparisons, it was quite interesting ( I have a taylor gs mini koa, a Furch and an Andy Manson). I wasnt convinced by them the intonation stuff was nonesence. However I did notice that they seemed to project in a way that appeard to be less directional or at least to my ears on the day not really a selling point for me. I am of the opinion that the Mexican made Taylors sound at least as good as the U.S made Taylors if not better.
Excellent video Richard! I've long considered Taylor guitars to be the Emperor's new clothes. Regarding their suggestion that V bracing improves intonation: this is a classic marketing tactic, where the seller puts doubt or fear about the status quo into the buyer's mind (remember Radion washing powder? Their pitch was that 'with your current powder, your clothes may be clean... but do they smell fresh?').
Also, the Taylor business model has similarities with the vacuum cleaner company Dyson, in that they both introduce new products or design variations to solve problems, but once the problems have been solved, where do they go? The next step is, they come up with new problems to solve; problems that we didn't know existed, but which allow them to keep on reinventing themselves.
A telling point for me in the Taylor V-brace is the cross brace on the guitar's back, visible through the soundhole: it's deliberately angled, supposedly for some tone-enhancing reason, but a blind man could see that its purpose is to let everyone know 'this is a V-braced guitar'.
Over the last few months I've played both standard Taylors and V-braced models, and agree with Richard's comments about them being sterile. It's a great description. By comparison, I've bought a couple of Crafters, which are definitely not sterile. My maple-bodied GAE-9 is very loud, with overtones in abundance, while my mahogany bodied GAE-8 is a little quieter and more subtle, but has more dynamic range. I also have a Crafter TCO-35 and an all-solid Tanglewood dreadnought, and would pick any of these guitars ahead of the Taylor models. I've played one Eastman, and it too was excellent, although I didn't get on with the 45mm wide nut.
To anyone contemplating buying a guitar, whether it's a Taylor or not, I'd recommend playing several to see which you like the best, before making a decision.
I have a Crafter cts155 nylon string guitar with l.L.R Baggs preamp which sounds amazing for £600. Tried numerous Taylors.,Takamine,Yamaha etc . None of them sounded as good plugged in as the Crafter. The v. Bracing system does sound like marketing bs. If it so revolutionary why is it only on their high end models. The acoustic letter video validates what you mentioned Richard about the sound being stripped away.
Well I was going to lambast you for criticizing without even trying one .............. then I watched the Acoustic letter video you mentioned and all became clear.
You just have to laugh right?
please more lefty guitars
I own a Taylor guitar and I have zero problem with your opinions and view Richard, I just find you informative and completely not influenced by marketing. I love my guitar, and you've never once made me feel like I shouldn't. Just wanted you to hear some positive feedback and know we aren't all insane defensive people.
Hey!!!! Bless you Graham. What an incredibly kind and considered response. Honestly - fantastic. Today I received a whatsapp from Erika. She is the daughter of Stan. They are the father and daughter team behind Dowina guitars in slovakia. The messages received were sent from Stan to Erika - to me! The pictures? Photographs of figured ebony that Stan had personally selected in Valencia. Tapping every top to find the best resonance. In his excitement he sends them to Erika who wants me to see them for some custom works of art they are producing for me. These guitars will retail at £1999. Its a world I LOVE. Every day is so exciting. Stan speaks very highly of Bob Taylor. He has been working on some eco projects to ensure sustainability of the woods used in guitar production. I am a little cynical and wonder whether he is looking to be the godfather of rare woods!!! lol... See? Such a bloody cynic! However there is a genuine positive outlook which Bob Taylor is at the heart of - so hats off to him for that. I always say there is a world of difference between me who has to sell products I fall in love with - and an end user (player) who finds a guitar in a shop - connects with it and falls in love. To suggest that cannot happen with a Taylor would be beyond belief and I have never questioned or judged anyone who owns a Taylor - they should rightly be proud of their guitar! On a personal level - as you have already mentioned all I can do is give my view and and share my experiences to help provide a balanced overview of the options. Anyway.... thanks again for the feedback. Really appreciate it.
Richards Guitars your love and enthusiasm for the instrument is genuine and infectious. I find the influx of negativity in the world disappointing and getting upset because someone is speaking their truth seems a waste of energy to me. I’m a fan of your videos and your love of guitars, I’ll certainly continue watching. Have a great day!
I own a 1937 Martin 0-17 photo in my avatar. And a Taylor ad22e both are excellent looking and sounding I totally love the v bracing and my new Taylor ad22e
i agree with you.
I've just come out of your future in 2021 where everything is different. First I'll hope you are still in business and haven't been pushed out by the pandemic. Second I watched all the way though and thought this was a hoot. This is exactly why if you are going to be dropping down a shovel full of money you really should play the damned guitar yourself live and in person but now there are fewer shops and what are left have a fraction of the inventory. In the high end room the wall however is full of Taylors with a couple of high end Martin's and one Gibson. Even the on line big box stores have wait lists and deposits for Martins that may (or not) be delivered 6 months from now. You can scratch off the 10 D-28s you should have been able to pick from. You will be lucky to get one and a big hassle sending it back if you don't like that particular one. Intonation is pretty much just an issue if you like being hypnotized by watching an electronic tuner more than playing music.
Interesting opinion Richard, however, it is worth bearing in mind that every individual [guitar players and audiences] hears the tonal qualities of a guitar based on their interpretation of sound. Of course, this is ultimately based on each individual's inherent "likes and dislikes" in relation to sound. The best advice I was given, and have passed on to many a friend alike, is to play as many guitars as you can before making your final decision to buy. However, and this is the really important part, once you have bought your guitar, and played it for some time, your knowledge and appreciation of "sound quality" derived from hearing and playing your guitar will develop. And it is this development that will influence your next buying decision. So, in reality, once you start looking for your NEW guitar, you will also be looking for a NEW "sound quality".
Perhaps this is what Andy Powers was trying to achieve with his V-Bracing? Through his own experiences of hearing and playing guitars over many years, perhaps Andy was looking for a subtle change in tonal quality - "sound quality" and as such, his X-Bracing achieved that for him? Now for those who can hear and appreciate the subtle difference in "sound quality" - job done. For those who cannot hear the difference, then this leaves a question mark over the whole hype of this new X-Bracing and the impact this may - or may not - have on the intonation [maintaining the tuning of the guitar as you move up through the fretboard] of the guitar.
I own a Tanglewood Parlour TW73 BNA [no longer in production] and love it to bits! This guitar suits me to the ground and revived my interest and playing at a point when I was going through a genuine slump!! A few years back I finally invested in an Avalon Guitar, which just blew me away in terms of sound quality, build quality and playability. Interestingly, I was reviewing Lowden and Avalon Guitars [once the same bunch of luthiers - as you know] simultaneously in Belfast, and following some serious consideration, I finally invested in the Avalon at the same price point. And, last christmas I invested in a Taylor 312ce 12 Fret Limited Edition NAMM 2018 guitar. This guitar is simply awesome! This particular guitar provided a different sound quality from either of the other two guitars. With a lovely combination of a Lutz Spruce Top and Blackwood Back & Sides, this particular guitar provides me with the best qualities of the other two guitars in one package. And believe me, that was a really hard task to achieve!
Like I said earlier, once you start to develop your knowledge appreciation of "sound quality" [in relation to guitars of course], you then begin your real journey of discovery in the world of the GUITAR...
I agree 100%
Qnly 8 Mins on average? At least i´ve watched it to the End :)
I agree with much of what Richard states. I don't think V-Class bracing is BS though. I think Andy Powers may well have achieved what he set out to do. The problem for me is that he and Taylor aimed at the wrong goal and then tried to sell the endeavor like wide eyed mystics looking to recruit cult members. Firstly the premise of 'intonation is everything' is based on a false dichotomy which is; you can either have (a) a rich, expansive, characterful sounding acoustic that is a nightmare to record or play live with, or (b) a perfectly intonated acoustic that is idiot-proof for recording or playing live but is dry and characterless acoustically. This is surely a falsehood. Otherwise why would Andy Mckee play a Greenfield guitar (acoustically rich and warm with plenty of overtones), or Dylan Ryche and Ewan Dobson play Furch, or Criag Deandrea and Callum Graham play Lowdens? All richly voiced acoustic guitars that don't appear to be excessively difficult to record or play live with. Taylor would have us believe that all these overtones and character equate to acoustic chaos that must be suppressed in order to achieve perfect intonation. Perfect intonation at the expense of a characterful voice is for me a poor return on investment.
I really applaud Andy Powers for his constant striving for innovative improvement of the acoustic guitar. But please Andy focus on giving the guitarist an inspiring and richly voiced acoustic guitar rather than trying to place a smile on the sound engineers face.
I agree with everything you said and on reflection, if I were a professional editor I would not use the word I used. Everything I say is how I see it at the time and sincere. The BS comment was more a burst of frustration as I have seen all this re-branding and marketing so many times before. I could not agree more with your views and you put it far more eloquently than I ever could.
This has been worth watching--thanks--but also like a masterclass in death by waffle without your actually going off topic.
Anyhow I've ended up here because I've been looking at Gibsons (as usual) with bright-tonewood backs and sides, and found none that quite fit the bill. I don't like playing long-scale guitars but, as far as short-scale Gibson options go, maple J-45s don't especially to me. I don't like the aggression of a J-185 or the imposing clarity of a J-35 either, plus the Gibson walnut options are now gone or inferior. Anyway I often prefer 12-fret guitars and most of the Gibson options are 14 fret. The thing is, I kind of like the sound of some Taylor 612s online and seemingly don't have a problem with V-bracing there. The effect doesn't put me off as a Taylor lover, because I'm not a Taylor lover. V-bracing possibly makes for more clarity--and less complexity, yes--and sometimes does seem to scoop the mids but leave punchy highs and lows, all of which may work well for someone who wants a guitar that will, say, maintain focus but can be made to sit back in a mix and not yell or drone on in the mids. I can imagine getting something at least vaguely resembling a direct, aggressive or semi-aggressive Townshend or possibly Cat Stevens/Yusuf Gibson tone from a 612, probably more so with the V-bracing. But the 612 is not necessarily going to extort attention and swing its dick around the way a big Gibson might. These Taylors can be lyrical or harmonious guitars, if you know what I mean, but they're not all necessarily sprinkling upper-harmonic pixie dust all over the place, as if every song has to be about a wistful unicorn, and to me as a Gibson lover, that's fine or even good, even if it's because the sound I'm hearing is not what I would typically expect, and often shy away from, in a Taylor.
My point, I suppose, is that there is probably no good or bad here. There are only preferences, context, etc.--as we probably do all realise, actually. I'm not inclined to think that a new bracing pattern that allegedly dampens upper harmonics more than other patterns is necessarily worse (or better) than any of those. It depends what role and what kinds of music I want to play on the guitar, and anyway there is probably a whole lot of room to--no intonation-related pun intended--fine-tune the outcomes here through string choice in particular.
So now I've matched you for death by waffle! All the best.
P.S. I'm not sure whether there's a conflict between your waxing lyrical about harmonic complexity but also saying that as a species we have insensitive heating and that intonation is therefore not generally a problem. Oh, and--physicians aren't the ones who do physics. Physicians are the ones who look after guitarists when they party too hard 😊.
Thank you for highlighting any inaccuracies in my use of the English language. It will please you to know I am aware that a physicist is someone who is engaged in the world of physics and wont sit through the entire video to find where I said it - I will take your word for it and thank you!
With regard to the conflict of interest in comments - No? Everything is relative and my comments were honest and true to my experiences. Each fact being "true" but it doesnt mean we cannot enjoy the sound of a nicely layered acoustic "voice"? The Taylors new system is literally designed to reduce the overtones you hear. For me thats as much as I need to know - and to this day (years after this video) I havent heard a Taylor that has impressed me personally.
Taylors Vbracing has been the best selling feature for Martin guitars. IMHO v braced is sterile. Long may Xbrace sing.
How the hell does bracing affect intonation???
The video was a bit extra lengthy, could have been condensed just to state what pertains to V bracing Vs X bracing, tone-wise, volume-wise and intonation-wise.
A physician is different from a physicist 🤦♂️😂
Also as a luthier (I have a regular X braced guitar), I've felt that the V bracing solves one problem better than others, the warping of the top over time, it's somewhat similar to a violin's bass bar (guitar strings don't just push the bridge inwards near the sound hole but also push the bridge facing the endpin side outwards), also this bracing is only pertaining to the guitar's top plate, you can still make the guitar have harmonics, a non "sterile" sound with warmth and depth, it all depends on how well the braces are tuned and how well the top will distribute the string vibrations and tension and which regions of the top will move.
I'm not in anyway endorsing Taylor guitars, it's a different taste and one can have it sounding great even with this new bracing, and as mentioned earlier, the only way to determine it factually is to hear it using blind tests in homogeneous conditions.
That was the first thing that crossed my mind when Taylor announced their "New V-Class" guitars. Marketing can be a very powerful thing and many people will be absolutely convinced by it. Personally I think it would have been far more interesting if Taylor had demonstrated a 2017 non V braced guitar along with the new one..but of course they would not do that would they ;) I have nothing against Taylor guitars by the way and I have owned several myself but, there are much better guitars on the market and for less money...in my personal opinion of course. ;)
agree with this to the fullest extent