His reluctance to go to war, preferring negotiation, and his strategy to appear meeker than he actually was seems more in line with Sun Tzu than Machiavelli.
going to war was simply not an option for him, which is what the video misses as well. Marlo was heavily hinted at having more muscle than all of east side together, and Avon even right before his fall had arguably more muscle than Marlo. Prop Joe played the cards he had to near perfection, however his situation from the very beginning was a hard one to navigate.
He really couldn't afford war...directly. He had the product but not the muscle, so he used his brains and product to make moves in his favor. Either way Prop Joe still had the ambitions like any other kingpin so he was ultimately his own downfall
Great breakdown of the Sly Fox Prop Joe. His main downfall was his inaction of his nephew Cheese. He should have killed Cheese a few times, or at minimum pull a Tony Soprano and set him up to go to jail 🤷🏾♂️
I wouldn’t blame Cheese for his own incompetence. Thats a cop out. He simply ran out of time. After he snaked damn near everybody he encountered, karma came to collect.
@@BigA678 Cheese wasn't even incompetent when it came to moving on Prop Joe. He did exactly what he was supposed to. Also, your last point ignores the fact that Prop J was taken out by someone who he never screwed over. Prop Joe was the one who was incompetent one too many times.
This was a brilliant breakdown. I've watched a few of your videos, but this is the one where you were not only spot on in describing the Machiavellian principles in relation to a character, but you were spot on in describing the character themselves. This video earned my first comment and subscription.
Joe was an old school business man in a world that no longer respected that model. He was not unlike a lotta the old LCN guys who were basically just capitalists outside the law but who preferred a well oiled and peaceful machine to war where nothing was accomplished but lost revenue and talent. There were a few bosses taken out back in the day but it was usually for a reason, that era officially ended when Gotti and co took out Castellano, especially when Sammy The Bull flipped. 2 big precedents were set, the old ways were done, anyone was a target for any reason and Omerta was no longer the ultimate law. That's basically the dynamic we saw play out with Joe. The time when nobody woulda touched Joe was gone and the unorganized, strength-wins-all way was official.
Marlo was hungrier than any of them and had more vicious hitters than they did. The only way was using outside help who they would owe a lot, which could hurt profits. The cheaper thing was to try and make peace than pay over the limit to get rid of him. The worst part was Marlo was rising and he could beat away as much of the force they sent as possible. Making Marlo properly angry and merciless was not a risk they were willing to take. They chose containment and assimilation, hoping they could co-opt him into their ranks slowly. That was a wrong move.
Hence, why Prop Joe fared better manipulating Stringer. Stringer wanted to be Prop Joe. On the other hand, Avon fared even more better manipulating Marlo with the connect issue, using their West Baltimore connection.
I think Joe's fatal flaw was assuming Marlo was a young buck he could manipulate. Remember no one k ew about the bodies in the boarded up houses until the final season. So if Joe had realized Marlo was a straight up serial killer I think he would have adjusted his plan. Also as far as Cheese... Joe had no children but his final monolog was about his grandparents buying the first house on the block. So although Joe may have viewed Cheese as too big for his britches... like Avon family was the only reason they did what they did so if he put a hit on Cheese it would have been completely out of character
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION: Postponing war does not work in this setting, like Stringer said: bodies = police… and in this game, police are the ultimate "GAME OVER." (other than Chris/Snoop lol) You have to avoid war in this setting as much as possible, b/c just the act of warring REGARDLESS OF YOU WINNING OR LOSING, you attracts the game-ending attention just for DOING IT AT ALL.
He didn’t have to start a war, just assasinate Marlo. Chris and Snoop having no one to take orders from anymore would’ve become good soldiers for Prop Joe.
Yeah agreed, while I enjoy these videos that’s the major flaw with analyzing characters in The Wire from the standpoint of The Prince. Being in ‘The Game’ isn’t the same as being a sovereign of a state, it’s a state within a state. The dealers and street players of The Wire have to contend with the fact that these a higher power (government and law enforcement) that is always actively keeping an eye on them and working to take them out. It’s as if Machiavelli lived in a world where the greek gods were real, and actively punishing human rulers when they were caught going to war. His advice would’ve looked a lot different in that world..
@@doublem1975x The idea of that happening is HIGHLY unlikely. Chris in particular seemed to have a very strong sense of loyalty to Marlo, he would’ve absolutely went to war in retaliation.
I'm not sure if prop Joe would be considered machiavellian two faced and manipulative Absolutely he was also an opportunist who was pretty good at turning somebody else's misfortune into an opportunity for himself like the way he got access to the towers after Avon was arrested or how he got marlo to join the co_op after his card game was robbed eventhough that ended up being a mistake and I always found it ironic how he was betrayed in the end by his own nephew cheese the only person he wouldn't have screwed over
He was very manipulative and two faced but was so good at it you can't catch it on the first watch. It's too subtle. Look up the video of him and Andre. Then watch the show over and see how he created the Omar vs Marlo saga. Then see how he manipulated stringer to betray Avon
I don't think just selling to Stringer was ever an option, how long do you think it would take for Stringer to realize "hey wait, I don't need a middle man" and try to cut Joe out. And If not Stringer, certainly Avon.
Stringer wasnt that brave and wasn't for getting dirty himself. Stringer was also trying to get out of the streets. So even if had had not got killed... He would have been arrested by McNulty as they figured out his phone scheme and managed to catch him as a dealer. But even if he didn't get killed, nor imprisoned, he would have wanted out the drug game, not (further) in it
Small minds with huge opportunities. Joe should have seen Marlo's plan from 100 miles away. Marlo was street smart, but not worldly. Time to cash in the chips and move on. Joe could have retired in one of those islands he had his money. Marlo just wanted to be king, he would have gotten that, and Joe would have lived. I suspect Joe was too concerned about that house and the importance of his family owning it.
In the context of black society struggling to own and maintain housing, his worries were valid. But not more valid than his life. He was stupid to not think Cheese would just take over the house on his departure. Cheese would keep the house for his ego and not sell it.
Yes. The Greeks accepted Marlo as the most peaceful option after Joe was "taken care of". They just silently hoped they didn't have to deal with him for long and their wish came true.
I know where your coming from. Watch Marlo vs Avon amw I feel like he does a great break down because from my perspective Marlo so that’s what I’m hoping from Machiavellian mondays a fair analysis
That's what he had Marlo for. Like Murder Inc and Bugsy Siegel was to Luciano/Lansky. But the difference is Marlo was no Bugsy Siegel. Marlo had myriad ambition
How come you've never done a Machiavellian on Tony Soprano? You talk about the Sopranos so much, and literally the main character, the one that everyone knows, you've never done a video on him.
@@italiancapo7 I’d ask you to reconsider, it’s a great watch. It’s not just about the “hood” the wire explores much wider themes. It’s like how sopranos is not just about the mafia life, or how breaking bad is not just about meth cooking. Obviously you’re entitled to what you spend your time watching, but The Wire has some really fantastic writing.
@@italiancapo7 I wasn't either, but it is easily on par with The Sopranos, I think it even objectively surpasses it except I love mafia so much The Sopranos is subjectively my #1, you follow the police as much as you follow the hood and they are all compelling.
This is the moment that the moment became the moment.
Do the tv show power. There’s so many to choose from. Ghost, Tommy, kanan.
@@rosheiljohnson7037 hell yeah thats like a dead ringer
It’s my moment !
Look
If you had one shot, or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted
One moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?
Yo
His reluctance to go to war, preferring negotiation, and his strategy to appear meeker than he actually was seems more in line with Sun Tzu than Machiavelli.
going to war was simply not an option for him, which is what the video misses as well. Marlo was heavily hinted at having more muscle than all of east side together, and Avon even right before his fall had arguably more muscle than Marlo. Prop Joe played the cards he had to near perfection, however his situation from the very beginning was a hard one to navigate.
He really couldn't afford war...directly. He had the product but not the muscle, so he used his brains and product to make moves in his favor. Either way Prop Joe still had the ambitions like any other kingpin so he was ultimately his own downfall
reminds me of Jay Z
@@robelgebre2698 How
I’m really happy I found this channel. Sopranos and the Wire, top tier !
Randy never knew how connected him and prop joe were .. Randy was the nephew Joe should have had
I know cheese is a fictional character, but there are so many feminine ass dudes like that in the real world. It's sad.
Wagstaff
Great video. Pls keep on making Machiavellian Monday episodes. Best content on UA-cam. Thank you
Thanks, will do!
Great breakdown of the Sly Fox Prop Joe. His main downfall was his inaction of his nephew Cheese. He should have killed Cheese a few times, or at minimum pull a Tony Soprano and set him up to go to jail 🤷🏾♂️
He wouldn’t be able to do that and not hear about it come Thanksgiving time.
@@SpektakOne hahaha! Better to have your family mad at you than be betrayed and killed by them 🤣
I wouldn’t blame Cheese for his own incompetence. Thats a cop out. He simply ran out of time. After he snaked damn near everybody he encountered, karma came to collect.
@@BigA678 Cheese wasn't even incompetent when it came to moving on Prop Joe. He did exactly what he was supposed to. Also, your last point ignores the fact that Prop J was taken out by someone who he never screwed over. Prop Joe was the one who was incompetent one too many times.
Slim Charles is one of my favorite The Wire characters.
This was a brilliant breakdown. I've watched a few of your videos, but this is the one where you were not only spot on in describing the Machiavellian principles in relation to a character, but you were spot on in describing the character themselves. This video earned my first comment and subscription.
Great fucking video 🤙🏽
Recently just stumbled across your channel and it’s solid. Love the material.
Keep up the great work big dog 💪🏽
Thanks! I will
@@bullywhispers9544 You got all the makings of a varsity athlete compã 🤌🏽
Joe was an old school business man in a world that no longer respected that model. He was not unlike a lotta the old LCN guys who were basically just capitalists outside the law but who preferred a well oiled and peaceful machine to war where nothing was accomplished but lost revenue and talent.
There were a few bosses taken out back in the day but it was usually for a reason, that era officially ended when Gotti and co took out Castellano, especially when Sammy The Bull flipped. 2 big precedents were set, the old ways were done, anyone was a target for any reason and Omerta was no longer the ultimate law. That's basically the dynamic we saw play out with Joe. The time when nobody woulda touched Joe was gone and the unorganized, strength-wins-all way was official.
Marlo wanted to kill Cheese when Omar robbed the re-up
Great episode!
Love these breakdowns.
Great analysis🔥
Slim Charles told him watch Marlo he up to something
I really need to actually watch the wire, these videos are convincing me
Its a very good show. You should give it a shot
@@bullywhispers9544 yeah I really wanna watch it now too lol. Where can one do that?
@@scotbush4338 Its an HBO show too
Need that "how makavelian was slim Charles" that video is going to be long AF
I don’t understand that the co-op knew Marlo was a problem. Why didn’t pool all their resources together and get rid of Marlo?
Marlo was hungrier than any of them and had more vicious hitters than they did. The only way was using outside help who they would owe a lot, which could hurt profits. The cheaper thing was to try and make peace than pay over the limit to get rid of him. The worst part was Marlo was rising and he could beat away as much of the force they sent as possible. Making Marlo properly angry and merciless was not a risk they were willing to take. They chose containment and assimilation, hoping they could co-opt him into their ranks slowly. That was a wrong move.
@@manniking233 💯💯💯
Prop Joe just thought Marlo wasn't on his level & underestimated Marlo's ability to work behind his back.
RIP Robert Chew
Marlo was too stupid to be reasoned with. He didn't want to be a wealthy business owner, he wanted to be a famous thug.
Hence, why Prop Joe fared better manipulating Stringer. Stringer wanted to be Prop Joe. On the other hand, Avon fared even more better manipulating Marlo with the connect issue, using their West Baltimore connection.
Gotta love the wire ... excellent video
I think Joe's fatal flaw was assuming Marlo was a young buck he could manipulate. Remember no one k ew about the bodies in the boarded up houses until the final season. So if Joe had realized Marlo was a straight up serial killer I think he would have adjusted his plan. Also as far as Cheese... Joe had no children but his final monolog was about his grandparents buying the first house on the block. So although Joe may have viewed Cheese as too big for his britches... like Avon family was the only reason they did what they did so if he put a hit on Cheese it would have been completely out of character
You do a great job.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION: Postponing war does not work in this setting, like Stringer said: bodies = police… and in this game, police are the ultimate "GAME OVER." (other than Chris/Snoop lol) You have to avoid war in this setting as much as possible, b/c just the act of warring REGARDLESS OF YOU WINNING OR LOSING, you attracts the game-ending attention just for DOING IT AT ALL.
He didn’t have to start a war, just assasinate Marlo. Chris and Snoop having no one to take orders from anymore would’ve become good soldiers for Prop Joe.
Yeah agreed, while I enjoy these videos that’s the major flaw with analyzing characters in The Wire from the standpoint of The Prince.
Being in ‘The Game’ isn’t the same as being a sovereign of a state, it’s a state within a state. The dealers and street players of The Wire have to contend with the fact that these a higher power (government and law enforcement) that is always actively keeping an eye on them and working to take them out. It’s as if Machiavelli lived in a world where the greek gods were real, and actively punishing human rulers when they were caught going to war. His advice would’ve looked a lot different in that world..
@@doublem1975x The idea of that happening is HIGHLY unlikely. Chris in particular seemed to have a very strong sense of loyalty to Marlo, he would’ve absolutely went to war in retaliation.
Now that you mention it we never see joe kill anyone or order a death.
dude I would love to see you have a conversation with 50 cent
Prop Joe is a cool character.
If Prop joe didn't tell Omar about Marlo's card game he could have prevented a lot of crap but buy for a dollar sell for tew😊
I'm not sure if prop Joe would be considered machiavellian two faced and manipulative Absolutely he was also an opportunist who was pretty good at turning somebody else's misfortune into an opportunity for himself like the way he got access to the towers after Avon was arrested or how he got marlo to join the co_op after his card game was robbed eventhough that ended up being a mistake and I always found it ironic how he was betrayed in the end by his own nephew cheese the only person he wouldn't have screwed over
He was very manipulative and two faced but was so good at it you can't catch it on the first watch. It's too subtle. Look up the video of him and Andre. Then watch the show over and see how he created the Omar vs Marlo saga. Then see how he manipulated stringer to betray Avon
Joe and Avon both had a nephew who ruined them.
I don't think just selling to Stringer was ever an option, how long do you think it would take for Stringer to realize "hey wait, I don't need a middle man" and try to cut Joe out. And If not Stringer, certainly Avon.
Stringer wasnt that brave and wasn't for getting dirty himself. Stringer was also trying to get out of the streets. So even if had had not got killed... He would have been arrested by McNulty as they figured out his phone scheme and managed to catch him as a dealer. But even if he didn't get killed, nor imprisoned, he would have wanted out the drug game, not (further) in it
Small minds with huge opportunities. Joe should have seen Marlo's plan from 100 miles away. Marlo was street smart, but not worldly. Time to cash in the chips and move on. Joe could have retired in one of those islands he had his money. Marlo just wanted to be king, he would have gotten that, and Joe would have lived. I suspect Joe was too concerned about that house and the importance of his family owning it.
In the context of black society struggling to own and maintain housing, his worries were valid. But not more valid than his life. He was stupid to not think Cheese would just take over the house on his departure. Cheese would keep the house for his ego and not sell it.
That’s a great analysis… why don’t you do characters from the law side?
I will be. Thanks for watching!
Prop Joe should've just gotten more muscle.
Marlo was the uberlion, probably the only one both capable and a absolutely convinced of taking out a Prop like Joe
Unpopular opinion. But Stringer and Prop were my favorite characters.
In time for Breakfast
The best character on the show
Avon barksdale do vid on him
Look the part be the part
The Greeks were never good with joe being killed...Marlo lied to all parties
Yes. The Greeks accepted Marlo as the most peaceful option after Joe was "taken care of". They just silently hoped they didn't have to deal with him for long and their wish came true.
Please do Marlo stansfield
I hope he doesn't. He's gonna shit on Marlo the entire video and talk about "the crown" like every other youtuber
I know where your coming from. Watch Marlo vs Avon amw I feel like he does a great break down because from my perspective Marlo so that’s what I’m hoping from Machiavellian mondays a fair analysis
Hesh sopranos
do Slim Charles!
shieeeeet how about do marlo
I agree Prop Joe intelligent as he was he should've had his own crew of killers on his team. In case someone refuses one of his generous offers.
That's what he had Marlo for. Like Murder Inc and Bugsy Siegel was to Luciano/Lansky. But the difference is Marlo was no Bugsy Siegel. Marlo had myriad ambition
Make a video on Pablo Escobar or felex gallarado from narcos
It's important to remember that some believe "The Prince" to be political satire. To be called Machiavellian is rarely a compliment.
Too much talking bro..out!!
How come you've never done a Machiavellian on Tony Soprano? You talk about the Sopranos so much, and literally the main character, the one that everyone knows, you've never done a video on him.
Hes next! Thanks for watching!
Who the heck is prop Joe?
The wire
Get right. Watch the wire.
@@franklaudicina9786 not interested in the hood
@@italiancapo7 I’d ask you to reconsider, it’s a great watch. It’s not just about the “hood” the wire explores much wider themes.
It’s like how sopranos is not just about the mafia life, or how breaking bad is not just about meth cooking.
Obviously you’re entitled to what you spend your time watching, but The Wire has some really fantastic writing.
@@italiancapo7 I wasn't either, but it is easily on par with The Sopranos, I think it even objectively surpasses it except I love mafia so much The Sopranos is subjectively my #1, you follow the police as much as you follow the hood and they are all compelling.