CIS vs Empire: Who Wins?
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Fans often point out that had the Separatist Droid Army been allowed to operate freely...they would've most likely defeated the Galactic Republic during the Clone Wars. So what would happen if the droid army went up against the Republic's much more militarized successor state?
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Commando Droids would be a nightmare for stormtroopers
I think a B2 would already be a nightmare for them
A Commando Droid would be their sleep paralysis demon
You underestimate the power of a stormtrooper not as good as clones but still better than a b1
@@tanimations5879 .......Okay? They still gotta fight B2's, Commando Droids, Droidekas, Hellfire Droids.....the Empire would be burning.
@@tanimations5879B1 and OOM, yes. B2, all droideka, and commando droids? Not so much
@@tanimations5879B1s are extremely dangerous in very large numbers and they outnumber Stormtroopers.
Just like the Clone Troopers...
Stormtroopers will be overwhelmed...
B1s are easily replaceable than both Clones and Stormtroopers...
Hear me out: ISDs have lackluster AA and carry only 72 different TIE variants. A single lucrehulk carry 1500 droid fighters. This is a 1 to 20 ratio. In the battle of scarrif a single ELETE Y-wing bomber squad (gold squad?) crippeld an ISD in one run. I dont think droid fightes would manage to do mutch damage in the early war, just scattiering their bomb loads over the armord hull of ISDs. Though if the droids start taking notes of where weakpoints are, soon all bomber could be programed with how to hit sutch weakpoints. We see in the clone wars that bombers intetionaly crash into main batteries and briges of Venetors.
I was thinking the same thing. The larger CIS ships are essentially carriers. And they have a MASSIVE fighter superiority. And they can make droids faster then the Empire can train pilots.
@@alexaurelian8024loose the ties and have hyena bombers strafe
And eventually manage to do it from out of range of the ISDs main guns.
If the rebellion used droids from the CIS the empire genuinely would not stand a chance
Like sprinkle some commando droids and droidekas into the rebel forces and any ground battle is practically a guaranteed victory. Even the empire’s KX series droids probably wouldn’t be able to put up much of a fight against a commando or Super Battle droid
And tri fighters would just be the end of any imperial blockade, putting Ties against tri fighters is like putting a mouse against a lion. The Tri fighter singlehandedly got the Arc 170 line cancelled, nothing compares to that
@PK-Radio Adding the the fact Clone pilots were actually very good as they were breed and trained just to be superb pilots, and even they were made to look bad against Tri-fighters. Imperial pilots are fucked.
In the Revenge of the Sith novelization some CIS tech like Tri-Fighters were scary. An unfettered CIS could be very powerful.
The Tri-Fighter is hands-down the best starship in Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga after all
The cis fighters would wholey wreck the tiefighters
Tri Fighters is genuinely all they need.
The empire’s main starfighter is the Tie Fighter, that’s like a coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb. A hydrogen bomb with a droid brain
the issue is the empire didnt really use fighters like the republic, the cis didnt have much if any anti capital ship firepower capable of taking down a battleship, dosnt matte if your fighters are better if you cant harm your enemies main force
@@emiliopavongras9185 fair enough, they would just switch to making bombers over fighters
I think you’re underestimating the CIS navy. While many star fighters were built to eliminate other star fighters, they could switch to have far more bombers. The empire would struggle against this, with little to protect their start destroyers from bombing runs.
Exactly. A Star Destroyers design is not as easy to adapt as a carrier's payloads of fighters/bombers/interceptors etc.
Moreover, a little more credit should go to Sep capital ships. The Munificent and Recusant classes were both built around being longer-ranged artillery pieces, and while they probably couldn’t match an ISD directly, you never see them deployed solo without other ships to back them up.
Also, an ISD, maybe even a few ISD’s, would eat shit tryna take on something like a Lucrehulk, especially if it’s filled to the brim with a full fighter compliment let’s be real.
I find it unfortunate he didn’t bring up hyena bombers and the boarding tactics the CIS used so much in the Clone Wars. The boarding tactic alone gives the CIS the ability to use their ground advantage in space combat.
@@davasaurthereal4678I used to feel the same way, but with the slow large moving target the Lucherhulk is, the ISDs would actually do really well against it considering one is a dedicated battleship designed to take on other battleships. And the other is a well retrofitted super freighter. The only advantage the donut has is definitely in its fighters which other than the tri-fighter, aren't much better than ties. 1v1 maybe, 2v1 probably not. And all of this of course assuming the empire doesn't take advantage of their picket and anti-fighter ships like the raider and lancer. And if they were somehow still in full scale war with the CIS and their large swarms, that seems likely.
They would have a heavy reliance on fighters, which aren't much better than TIEs other than the tri-fighter. The imperial navy would absolutely dominate the CIS navy in terms of ship to ship combat. Even factoring in Artillery from the munificent, that likely won't matter when imperial battleships designed during the end or after the clone wars were built just for that. Part of the reason the rebels were so successful was because the imperial navy was designed to fight something like the CIS.
Although the Clone Wars were over, some people never seemed to get the message. The worst case of denial was Gizor Dellso, a Geonosian Separatist who'd somehow escaped Lord Vader's efforts to wipe out the remnants of the CIS. Lord Vader tracked him to Mustafar, and brought us in to finish the job. It seemed like a simple enough mission, but when we saw the fleet of droid ships, hovering over the planet, we suddenly realized that Dellso's denial mechanisms were a little more dangerous than we'd imagined.
Without them being held back like Dooku and Sidious were doing abso-fucking-lutely. They had SO MANY droids in reserves not even used.
Plus models that they were developing and had that Palpatine and Dooku kept them from using
If so why wouldn't Sidious use the separatist to straight up conquer the Republic instead of a complex plan with lots of moving parts? My view is that he didn't really believe they ever had a strong hand, but could be useful in wearing down the republic and create a vulnereable condition to take over.
@@leonardobroza6298 As others have already told you, the Galactic Republic was still the largest governing body around, plus taking it from the Jedi was literally the "Revenge of the Sith."
@@leonardobroza6298 palpatine was playing both sides so that he would have no competition, he even had his own secret clone army he didn't tell Duku about.
@@DonaldWWitt Yeah, but a power without army is no real power. If the endgoal was to take controle of the galaxy the was no need to plan a inside job, he could have just done it externaly. For the plot to make sense we must assume that hijacking the CIS cause wasn't a viable option. Also, according to the argument that the CIS would have been the better army then it wouldn't make sense for palpatine to even bother in seeking the creation of a clone army.
In my opinion the separatist could. In canon and I believe legends Palpetine purposely helped too relay separatist factories and bases too the republic due too the fact they outmatched the grand army of the republic. I believe in canon or legends a contingent of clone commandos were also perplexed at why the droids were not beating them.
The Republic Commandos novels. The third book I think or the second while they were looking at ALL the intelligence the GAR had.
@@chandansimms9167 The answer is easy: logistics. The Separatists needed ships to deploy their numbers, and the Republic had cloaked ships.
I don't think so, because if so why didn't he straight up conspire with the separatist senators to overthrow the republic using a droid army if it were really all benefits? Actually he wouldn't even need complex plan like the one we saw, he would only need to use the separatist movement to take oved the Republic by conquest.
Why wouldn't Sidious use the separatist to straight up conquer the Republic instead of a complex plan with lots of moving parts? My view is that he didn't really believe they ever had a strong hand, but could be useful in wearing down the republic and create a vulnereable condition to take over.
@@leonardobroza6298 before the clone army was created there was no official army of the republic but mere planetary defence forces. Sidious wanted his empire with the galaxy thinking he was the saviour who defeated the separatists
ok i got to ask WTF is the empire navy going to do against hundreds if not thousands of droid starfighters when they are constantly getting their shit wrecked by dozens of them during the civil war?
the droid army would steamroll over the imperial navy well before industry could catch up to match the starfighter numbers as a droid army not being forced to hold back takes the ship yards as their first strike crippling the empires ability to wage war and then its just a matter of time.
I disagree. For starters, you're underestimating the CIS navy too much. It's true that some droid starfighters were somewhat predictable, but that doesn't matter much when you consider their advantages. They are smaller, nimbler, faster, literally programmed to work together, and outnumber the TIE fighters like 15 to 1. During a naval battle, the droid fighters can easily clear a path for droid bombers to take advantage of an ISD's weak AA capabilities. The CIS also has those ships that hunt droid pods (I forget the name) that can also dig into the hulls of ISD's and deploy droids once the TIE's are dealt with for the most part. Not to mention, sneaking assasin droids onto Imperial ships via cargo wouldn't be too far fetched and would be devastating, especially considering the Imperal haven't really faced a threat like that before. In general, non-nerfed swarms of droid starfighters will be such an issue for the Empire it's not even funny. Also considering that Palatine nerfed the CIS numbers, the CIS could have a lot more capital ships to chip away at ISD fleets like a war of attrition. I mean, the Empire was fairly stretched thin with ISD's as it was. You also aren't taking into account the leadership of the two sides. A lot of Imperial officers were incompetent. Tactical droids on the other hand, while they weren't the best, were pretty good and actually learned quickly from every battle. This isn't even taking into consideration that the CIS could implement more super tactical droids that were even more effective. A lot of the ground attack mistakes like marching in formation made by the CIS can be easily fixed. This CIS could also implement more commando droids. Smaller, more cohesive units of elite droids like these would pose such an issue for Imperial outposts, smaller bases, or just places as a whole where the Empire was stretched thin or didn't have as many resources. A good example would be the episode of the Clone Wars where commando droids took over a clone outpost. My point is, there are a ton of factors to consider. The CIS has a lot of specialized droids and platforms that can be produced cheap, effective, and fast. Also overall, the CIS is just much more suited for a war of attrition and scale.
The cis if fully unleashed at clone wars strengths would overhwlem in general
Plus they are really good at engineering. They could update their ship designs and software faster than the ISD fleet could keep up with. Without the Sith hobbling them they would simply overwhelm the Imps. And given enough time the could find counters for Sith Force powers. The Force may be OP but the Sith are still organics. In any event enough blasters explosives, missiles etc. will silence even Vader or the Emperor. Commando droids with Mandolorian style jump packs and a similar loadout would be even more effective against Sith. Especially in large numbers.
Ignoring the fact that you are heavily underestimating the imperial fleet in a full on war setting. The existence of the many imperial star dreadnoughts, super-weapons, and even just the inclusion of interdictor cruisers and star destroyers would wipe the floor with the CIS. Also while they were definitely not at their full strength after order 66, the first tasks of the early empire of wiping out the CIS remnants. So they actually did fight the empire and were not very effective in doing so.
@@endosaurus1404 We're taking each side at their peak btw. Keep in mind, these super star destroyers and super weapons took lots of time and resources to make. When these powerful weapons are overrun, it cripples the Empire.
@@natelovestea And CIS would certainly not be able to overrun those weapons considering they couldn't do that to the few Super ships of the clone wars.
Also both sides peak? The empire automatically wins because of the death star as the CIS would have no counter to that overwhelming force unless you somehow think the droids would be enough to 'invade' the station. BX commandos are not that effective either. Also lets not even get into the possibility of the Dark empire's capabilities.
Empire would look great early on with the ISD's. Then the issues of maintianing the IDS's may start forcing the empire onto the defensive.
The thing is, you really cannot set aside the fact that the whole clone wars conflict was a subterfuge between two sith to destroy all powers that be, meaning not only the separatists but the republic and the Jedi combined. The parity between the republic and the separatists didn't have to do with politics - it was to get the galaxy to both discover and ruin most of their resources and governments. It's like Ezra and Zeb said in Rebels in "The Last Battle" - the Empire won, because people were distracted by two organizations equally corrupt. Take the sith out of the equation, and there would have been no clone army. There would have been no need for the separatists to seperate, because the corruption would have been to a reasonable scale. Adding sith is like dropping a nuke into the Napoleonic War - chaos on a scale of more than an order of magnitude greater. This is a fun thing to debate, but it's not realistic.... and here I am saying this about a Fictional Universe.. ha. ha. ha.
Cloneboys: "They are the best trained soldiers in the galaxy"
>Clones literally only fought an enemy designed to lose and still took heavy casualties lmao
If they ever could make landfall and make any significant foothold, it would be extremely difficult to halt or reverse momentum against the Separatists planetside.
The problem for the CIS would be MAKING it planetside. The CIS Navy was already being clobbered by Republic Venator- and Victory-classes, and the Imperator/Imperial was purpose-built for straight-up Clone Wars style brawls while its TIE swarms were an evolution of the V-Wing paradigm shift that completely negated Confederacy starfighter advantages.
The CIS would need to adapt their tactics and strategy just to have a chance, because sticking to their original MO against the Empire would see them outright massacred in fleet battles.
I thought the CIS also had a massive number of ships being held back alongside their Droid reserves?
You sure about that? For capital ships, probably, but TIEs do the same thing as Vultures or Tri-fighters but worse.
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystemthe tri fighters were actually good fighters. They were the commando droids of starfighters.
The CIS, would overwhelm the empire. You don’t really need advanced tactics when you can crush the enemy by shear numbers alone.
@HandoOhnaka Yes. I was saying that the TIEs wouldn't be good in this fight. They try to be the droid fighters but aren't able to be better or equal in the ways that the CIS droid fighters are good. The tri-fighter is undeniably better per unit, but they're also cheaper than a TIE. A TIE is 60,000 per unit, while a tri fighter is 40,000. Also, being droids, you don't have to also invest time and money in a pilot, as you do with the TIE.
What you could include is both the Imperial Forces & the CIS is when they do include unique forces outside of their parameters (Mercenaries, Bounty Hunters etc)
This is when things could get interesting along with militaries loyal to either side.
If the seps were going to build up and rise up against the empire rather than the Republic... they probably would have made some improvements to their navy. Armed merchant ships would have been enough for the pre clone Republic given their lack of a standing force.
probably more subjugators mainly
I think the Separatist navy could hold up better than you give them credit for. Their swarms of small and nimble starfighters could outmaneuver TIE fighter and turbolaser alike, and as demonstrated in the Clone Wars, the vulture droid could take down a capital ship, even if it happened to be with a kamikaze maneuver.
The other factor you don’t account for is the adaptability of each of the militaries. As soon as the Separatists designed a new toy, they could pump out legions from one of their massive factories. The Empire has similar productive capabilities, but is more dogmatic in its military doctrine, and so it may take longer for the Empire to adapt to the Separatist forces.
Capital ships, the ISD holds a sound advantage over pretty much everything except the Malevolence. But if the CIS leans into their starfighter corps, they could give the Empire a massive headache.
Give there hyena bombers ion bombs and that battle is over
If against a squad of Commando droids and Droidekas? That’s a deadly combination against those bucketheads
thats literally what i was thinking. droidekas use their shields to cover the commandos, literally creating a wall of fire
@@lordcardinals the Commando droids already proven to be deadly especially having a personal shield generator
I also wonder if B1's are just programmed to miss a lot to make things easier on the clones, and if they're only one update away from nightmarish effectiveness.
Lucky for the Empire the CIS is run by penny pinching corpos, so its just fighting a bunch of B-1s.
There are three things you forgot in favor of the Separatists, in my opinion:
a) The ability to adapt. The Empire is notoriously inflexible and filled with incompetence in leading roles due to its design - Palpatine's design. However, if you remove the nerfs Palpatine placed on the Confederacy and take into account how many specialized droids the Separatists had to counter whatever the Republic came up with, then that picture changes. How about, just as an example, they come up with "buzz droids" designed to specifically rip apart capital ships? How would Star Destroyers deal with them, if their screen of TIE fighters is busy surviving in 20-to-1engagements against fighter droids? The corruption within the Empire will prevent it from being flexible enough to counter that threat, IMO. Yes, you may consider it ironic that a programmed army could be more flexible - until you then consider that that ST-series strategic analytics droid sure as hell isn't in charge due to nepotism.
b) Reserves - Manpower. In an all out war that isn't just about "getting rid of a corrupt Republic", but rather "survive the attempt of an actively evil Empire to conquer us", the Separatists still have an entirely untapped reserve - flesh-and-blood troopers, reserves, militia etc. etc. The kinda guys who join the Rebellion otherwise.
c) The Empire may have massive resources... but think about all those resources they not only WON'T get from the resource-rich Outer Rim worlds that band together under the Confederacy, but also would actively fight the Empire, draining those reserves even further.
An Empire / Confederacy war would be one of the largest battles of atrocity seen in galactic history... but I do not see an obvious winner here.
I'd give it to the Seppies, the Empire would still be drawing on Organic Manpower to fuel its war machine while the CIS can leave there entire civilian population untouched.
Without a Sith Puppet Master of BOTH sides needlessly prolonging the conflict, the population of the Empire will quickly loose motivation to fight for Palpatine.
there were already some pretty nasty militias that were with the separatists, like the umbarans
@@lordcardinals Fair point.
@@DonaldWWitt Yes, but I would deduct some points for, for example, the "Dark Trooper" project.
@@DGARedRaven Yeah, but current canon “Dark Trooper” droids aren’t much of an upgrade over B2s performance wise…
Not really, I guess it's possible, but the Empire was built for the last war (as many governments do) so an Empire with the firepower and huge numbers that they didn't have as the Republic would ultimately win against the Separatists, though i'd imagine such a conflict would make the Clone Wars look like a fun table-top wargame. I'd imagine the war with the Seps would last at leas a generation with no-one to pull the other strings.
The real matchup was the friends we made along the way
The more I learn about the droid army the more inclined I am to say that the republic could benefit from the surplus droids out there as muscle or labor force. But I’m sure there’s too much stigma after the clone wars to allow droids to be a military force again.
The Sepertist Navy was a major headache for the Republic Navy. It'd be an uphill battle for the entire conflict but I could see the Empire coming out on top.
Thank you for all non-Disney era content!!!
I would still join the CIS and gladly die GLORIOUSLY in battle.
I’d say in a naval conflict a star destroyer would be outmatched by even a munificent cruiser. CIS vulture droid and hyena bombers, plus whatever else they carried could overwhelm TIE fighters, and as long as the cruiser maintained distance, the cloud of droids could decimate an ISD with minimal issue
12:51 *GONK* 🤖 did he just drop the C-word with a hard 'r'? It's one thing when it's your grandpa telling you about what it was like growing up during the Clone Wars, but that's just the generation they grew up in, y'know?
So at the very least, it will just led to the stand-off with the Imperial Navy blockaded a planet but unable to do anything on the grounds below as long as the Separatist Droids Army have numerical advantage and weapons that can take down their vessels and gunships such as the proton cannons and the droids like the Octuptarra Droids and Tri-Droid Fighters. And if prolonged enough, the Empire might be forced into some truces with the Separatists.
The Separatists would have a hard fight, but it would be a very, VERY winnable fight. The fact that much(but of course not all) of the Imperial Army and Stormtrooper corps were inferior to the quality of Clone Troopers makes that more difficult. Instead of troopers having to be enlisted and trained, the Droid Army can afford to build its troopers with any combat intel pre-programmed.
The only equalizer the Empire would have is the Death Star, but that feels like a copout.
Death Star wouldn't matter though, all the separatists have to do is take a Munificent and hyperspace through the death star and you take the death star out of action
@@krovianclass8772 This is why I hate The Last Jedi 😂 True, true.
Spaghetti and meatballs for meat bags vs WD-40 for clankers .
Damn, a Cheesecake Factory? Sign me up! 😂
With enough numbers and weapons.
The droid army canonically numbered in the Quadrillions. (Star Wars allies and adversaries) and was one of the most powerful star wars factions. But the galactic empire could match these numbers by just conscripting their own population. The empire had 100 Quadrillion citizens and just conscripting 5% of their population could probably match the cis's number. Another way to match the CIS numbers could be mass producing their own KX and Dt security droids, these droids are a step above from their CIS counterparts and probably number in the billions, given how common they were, being commonly seen doing normal police work and guarding automated trade ships. Its just a question of if the empire could hold out long enough to bring these massive numbers to bear
I disagree - a single Malevolence class of ship could easly wipe out entire Imperial fleet. On top of that sepies preffered to use mass fighters - which is something empire cant compete with - it doesnt matter if you got better pilots when you are outnumbered 10:1 and that 10 has missles and you don't xD
The republic did it with an even greater disadvantage. Don't see why they couldn't tank it enough and eventually take it down in a way or another.
Ok say you wipe out one
Probably small imperial fleet with a malevolence class ship
What about the 2 fleets they send next, or an actual sector fleet
Considering the republic destroyed the malevolence with what? Two venators and a single wing of bombers with some fighter escorts? An imperial sector fleet would have no trouble destroying a malevolence class shop.
@@leonardobroza6298The
Malevolence was meant to be destroyed.
in a real war the separatist will try to actually defend the Malevolence this time while mass producing it.
@@mitchell3593y wings. The empire had no real equivalent. The tie bomber was slow and clunky and easy target for hundreds of droid fighters. While another compliment attacks the attacking isd?
And the empire has the Executor class which is almost four times as big. And those CIS fighters tended to be lacking in the anti-ship department.
I think you forgot the fact that even the cis navy focus on the Soviet battle tactics: if your enemy can destroy 100 ships then bring 200. Not only that but late stages of the clone wars they had a lot of ships built for war and I’d say about 5 or 6 providence destroyers could fight a ISD, and since CIS is a fighter focused faction which is the imperial navys biggest nightmare and weakness I believe they have a chance. Not only that but during the clone wars they attacked weakened strongholds using surprise attacks and ambushes several times.
I always felt like the separatist Navy would win a naval combat with the empire, mostly due to the swarms and the hyena bombers also putting the fact that they have very quick boarding party capabilities that could easily overwhelm a ISD.
then they have a disposable ISD to use in a brawl
As if a boarding party of droids could actually overwhelm an ISD. That has like 20k troops on board. They rarely did that to even venators or victories.
@@endosaurus1404 it has happened before in the clone wars when Obi-Wan Kenobi Fleet was ambushed by General grievous where he conducted a heavy boarding party, capturing the ship and destroying the rest of the fleet
@@sovietbear5084 That was an entire CIS fleet against a single venator and some support ships. The venator itself was already being overrun by the Droid fleet shooting at it. It was only boarded after it was heavily disabled. And because it was Kenobi's ship.
@@endosaurus1404 3 venators with support ships and it still was a victory with good tactical ability
Shots like in 00:11 ... clones and droids standing like napoleonic infantry in front of each other always made a mockery of the "superiority" of the clone troopers ... where is your advantage as a meatbag thinly clad in apparantly worthless armor standing just there and trading shots with the droids which you have to shoot to pieces to stop working and which don´t feel any pain. If the clones would at all times use the terrain clever and jump from cover to cover like skirmishers then you could say "yep tactically superior" ... but soooo many times we see this setup and its just ridiculous
Ridiculous is a good way to describe a lot of that show
Wasn't that because the early Jedi commanders knew dick-all about strategy and kept getting their guys killed?
@@MeanBeanComedy Well yes, certainly, though this would be a tactical situation and strategy advice from the inept Jedi generals would be like "assemble at location x and storm that position" and not "storm that position by just walking and firing, don´t bother to take cover", the exact tactic the clones would be using is up to clone commanders like Rex ... I guess, though its debatable ofc.
@thingamabob3902 The problem was that the Jedi Generals were micromanagers and gave specific instructions, and then started chastising the Clones for not deflecting blaster bolts back at the Driods (in order to have a ranged attack) and not using Force leaps to get out of the blast radius of rockets.
@@casbot71 ok, haven´t seen this particular scene.
I believe that the CIS is the most powerful military in starwars. Especially if you remove Dooku and siddious from the equation.
If the separatists made it to the times of the empire, and fought an open war. They too would have likely developed better droids, ships, fighters, and probably have even more droids.
nice video keep up the good work hope to see more like it in the future
The CIS usually came out of nowhere like the Rebels did, but with an entire fleet to my understanding. While the munificent and revenant were fragile everything else was pretty well armored. The lucrehulk was a fortress and the providence was extremely flexible and made for war. Plus, the cruisers weren’t exactly pushovers either.
Would you be able to do a video about OPERATION SKYHOOK. I was asked by my boss about it. Typically I am able to respond with a decent amount of knowledge but, I have been struggling finding good information about it. Love your content and hope all is well in your life. May the Force be with you.
Palpatine nerfed them HARD
The Empire would be like the Covenant just plowing through Humanity glassing every planet in their way unless they needed something from it. Separatist would need a Master Chief level Jedi 😂😂
I loved the droids. Those b1s and b2s had more personality in the few minutes they'd be on screen than Rey did in three films 😂
I love how like every video is somewhere else. Thats neat. Hope youre having fun.
This video has such an air of quality. Great work, Gen Tech
as far a droids being the inferior force .... i have 2 words for you ...
firmware update ...
lol
i think the next faction in star wars in the future,,, to utilize the various droid groups , like the one we saw on Plazir-15 ( you'd have an army of highly adaptable and diverse units that could literally evolve as fast as the next production batch,), would be a ruling faction
im honestly surprised droids weren't utilized more by either side , ESPECIALLY the empire
Would you get censored on Twitter for talking about the CIS?
I would have to disagree with the separatist navy being at a disadvantage it was overall cheaper and better rounded when compared to most star war factions. At that, the imperal navy has a weakness that the separatist navy would be able to exploit hard, poor point defense, and a lack of more dedicated carriers. A Isd had 72 tie fighters while the providences carrier/destroyer has 120 vultures and 120 tri fighters available (not to mention the 1500+ a lucrehulk would be able to carry or the stupid amount of torpedos a providence can fire).
If the separatists achieve superiority in their snub fighters (which they will), then the main threat of the imperal navy, an imperial star destroyer, would be at its weakest its fighter protection lost to the swarm and if the Hyenas don't rip them to shreds then the torpedos will.
Before watching the video: Yes it can.
The ISD was designed with the lessons learned early on in the Clone Wars. As I recall, in George Lucas Star Wars, a few even saw service in the form of the Imperator-class before it was modified and renamed. (Side note: I wasn't expecting to see any Imperators, but I was disappointed there were no Victory I's in Revenge of the Sith.) The Seppies would've needed a lot more Subjugators to go toe to toe with them. That, or swarms of Hyena bombers. They'd probably go with the latter.
As for ground combat, Base Delta Zero would see much more use than with the Republic. Why waste legions of Stormtroopers taking an Outer Rim foundry world that'd probably wind up in ruins anyway when you can just glass it?
Roger roger
2 more factors that could play into the empires hand. 1 Thrawn, fought and defeated a small separatist fleet consisting of 2 lucrehulk battleships, and a few hardcell ships. Thrawn destroyed the hard cell ships, and then was able to figure out the frequency the droid star fighters used, and used full spectrum jamming. The star fighters from one battleship aimlessly drifted into spaced and self destructed when communications with their ship was lost. Thrawn then preformed full spectrum jamming on the other battleship, and the activated but not laughed star fighters in the second battleship started self destructing inside the battleship. The commanders of this fleet surrendered to Thrawn and were allowed to retreat. Thrawn did this mission with 3 small ships and 1 wing of fighters. So with Thrawn, he’d be able to significantly destroy separatist fleets in a full scale war with Imperial resources. Other advantage the empire would have is, the troopers wouldn’t be as likely to feel remorse about destroying droids. Not as many from the storm trooper corps, but the imperial army and even Navy had some decent amount of desertion. Because the troopers were attacking their friends and own people. And not all imperial really liked that. So being a droid army, they would significantly see less desertion
Pop quiz, Al: if you were going to attempt to kill or incapacitate Darth Vader, how would you go about it and prepare for it?
Nuke him from Orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
With out sidius and duku necaping them absolutely
While converted freighters, hulk in general had shields on par with Mon Cal for sheer strength, and battleship refits even more so along with enough ion and heavy turbo lasers to make a ISD blush. The Providence and its 2 or so variations wasn't particularly huge ship, but it boasted a high number of medium turbo lasers, banks of proton torpedo launchers and ion cannons. The munificent is glass (was during the clone wars even) but with the latched fighters, bombers and HMPs on top of any other ships carrying droid craft. It and the recusant had forward heavy turbo lasers with the Munificent having a super heavy. Both were built with range in mind, The recusant simply had a droid brain only and had a tendency to enjoy Ramming...
And let us not forget the bulwark. Heavily armored even by the days of empire's standards, and run to the gunnels with ion cannons. And all CIS ships had a strong mix of ion and turbo lasers. The empire, like the republic, did not have much in the way of raw shield damaging and ship crippling power beyond sheer force. Also if you really feel like you're up against a wall. Strap droid starfighters you're highly unlikely to have hit with explosives and just do extra long range bombardment that way.
We also tend to forget that it wasn't sheer republic power that broke the outer rim sieges or even pushed them back that far. Some of the most competent CIS leaders were put into positions where they would be killed quite purposefully, and even once navel parity (roughly speaking) was achieved, the Republic had a very hard time keeping up with the fleets. The CIS used holding/blockade tactics when engaged on a planet and have repulsed the initial forces there. Mobile tactics used by the CIS fleets were painful to try and counter due to the long range fire capabilities, the number of fighters/bombers and weapon mixes. Providences and hulks would be a precious resource ultimately, but Munificent and recusants are mass produced. Both are actually warships by design, the Munificent was used as an enforcer ship by the commerce guild. It simply had the space to where you could rack up and store quite a hefty amount of things like droids.
Ultimately the CIS if you were to remove sith interference, would have been commanded by minds greater than any that held any meaningful power in the empire aside from Thrawn. Though pitting Sevrance Tann against Thrawn would be interesting.
Another facet of the Empire naval force domination would be orbital bombardment.
Wherever CIS would manage to land and put up major land force, the Empire would just bombard them into oblivion.
Oh, you pointed out this later.
Absolutely. The Empire wouldn't have Jedi Generals to hold the line after all.
With your knowledge you can rule this world
Just came back from work. Love watching your vids. Keep going!
A point to be made here though: the Empire controls MUCH more territory than the Separatists ever did. I got curious after seeing the video title here and looked up some Star Wars maps and the CIS at most controlled a bit shy of a third of the galaxy - somewhere between a quarter and a third. Hutt space was roughly the same size/area. The Empire inherited all of it plus the much-larger Old Republic space, giving it substantially greater resources to draw upon which in turn reduces the relative numerical advantage the CIS forces would have.
Please make a video on 200 FO Stormtroopers vs 200 Clone Troopers
So you've done "Clone army vs. Im perial Army," "Empire vs Yu Zhang Vong" and "Empire vs Droid Army"...now we just need Droid Army vs Vu Vhang Vong. And for Disney to grow a backbone and give us a Yu Zhang Vong Invasion tv series.
The legend's Separatist Holdouts saw battles against the Empire.. like Gizor Dellso on Mustafar
Neither would exist without palatine. The CIS wouldn't create a droid army without the confidence of backing from the sith
maybe if Dooku led a Separatist movement he could still make the droid army, but there would still be no clones
If the CIS was allowed to go all out, they would bury the empire. Literally. Vader and Sidious would be buried under a solid kilometer of dead B-1's.
It probably would just come down to navy, where despite major flaws the imperial one is just better.
The recent uploads seem so frequent, they actually end up filling in the gap left by the infrequency of some other channels I watch recently. You're gonna end up getting a considerable portion of my usual watch time when I sit and look at YT.
Here's the thing, early in the war a lot of Naval engagements were avoided as much as possible. Also, the CIS outnumbered Republic vessels like 6 to 1, and that's not taking into account there's shit like Lucrehulks and Providences in their ranks. Even Recuscants and Munificients were nasty ships to fight
In a straight up pitched battle, i think you've got a great summary on this potential conflict. However, there is one issue I have with what you said at the beginning. Yes, it's a droid army, but that droid army has living beings leading it and leading the government. Entire worlds would still be subject to the Tarkin Doctrine, as well as the government as a whole, especially since, as Seventy Maxims for a Maximally Effective Mercenary put it: if you're not willing to shell your own position, you're not willing to win. You said it later in the video: the Empire had the will to destroy its OWN worlds, it would have no qualms whatsoever about destroying those of its enemies. The stormtrooper corps, as well, was fanatical enough to call down orbital bombardments on their own positions if necessary. The Separatists would never have won either a single conflict nor a general war against the Empire.
Okay you might need to redo the video because you forgot to mention the Separatist Alliance were sharing the blueprint for the BX Series Commando Droid that was literally the B1 Battle Droids replacement if the Clone Wars were to continue on. And several factions within the Separatist Alliance also shared different files on the C-B3 Cortosis Battle Droid. The C-B3 Cortosis Battle Droids metal can block or deflect lightsabers and their dual high-intensity laser cannons could easily take out or disable vehicles. Both of these Droids were replacements for their older previous models that were already in use across the Alliance somewhere.
I feel a issue here is the eras, the reason the Seps focused on the ground was because their adversary was ground based also. You also have years of technology being advanced between the two. If the Seps were in the same era and had access to the same technology as well as was aware of their adversary they would be able to change their navy accordingly and the sheer numbers would tare apart the empire.
The Collicoid would absolutely pose a major threat. Tri-fighters are just as agile as a TIE but with a far more versatile arsenal, the average army trooper/stormtrooper would be nothing but chaff against Droidika and the big, pondorous ISD's with their shit point defense and overall poor system redundancy would be very vulnerable to mass buzz droid missile attack
Question: Why is it called the “Clone Wars,” as in plural? Wasn’t there just one war?
The Clone Wars had the main conflict between the GAR and the Separatist's droid army, but most of the fighting was a ton of civil wars between numerous worlds to determine if they would be loyalists or separatists, often without a droid or clone involved.
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem Thank you for your well-thought response. It might be accurate to say there was one Clone War, but many Separatist Wars, but that’s getting into semantics.
I honestly think that the Tri-Droid and Buzz Droid would be nightmare fuel for any and all Imp Pilots. Be they TIE Pilots or Imp Star Deuce Pilots, those styles of Droid fighters were pains in the ass.
Then again, a Properly set Droideka would be the death of a Stormtrooper Corp Division. One Droid with the right setting with its' kit, yeah it would be well suited to kill off 100's of the Empire's shiny fighters.
i hope you love your job. i appreciate your work.
If you go with stock ships I agree. Then again, if the Separatists had a chance to upgrade their ship designs they'd give the Empire a run for its money at the very least. Its worth remembering that the the CIS ships were decades out of date by the time the standard Imp military came on line. Given the Separatists penchant for purpose built engineering I'm pretty sure they could come up with an answer to the SD fleet. They are good engineers.
I disagree. The Navy of the CIS maintained its force of millions+ of ships over the entire war. even in ships, not just in ground, they outnumbered the empire vastly. take the magnificent for example even though it’s hull was quite weak, it’s shields are strong, and it could output a large amount of damage in a short period of time.
Short version: No.
Long version: No, it can't.
Expect a BX commando droid to do anything, it's almost as easy for the droids destroy or hit the target well once they got it by aiming. Usually a Commando droid are agile like ninjas and use many skills, super battle droids has shown that they steamroll through thin defenses, it could take out lots of ballons if it was a target, and more durable.
Best Star Wars Show By Far Allen. Long Time Fan.
In outbound flight thrawn was able to take out something like 3000 vulture droids. It would be cool to see the empire do something like that again.
Ok I’ve got a counter to the Death Star for the cis the melevalance class ships with ion weaponry disable its power then obliterate it with firepower
Seppies win on ground and the empire win in space.
I agree on this take, the CIS wins on ground (thanks Tarkin, greatest rebel contributor ever), slightly in favour to the separatist in starfighter department, but Imperial fleets are just better, I can see the CIS potentially winning if given acess to the Bulwark I and II schematics (maybe even Malevolence but that's being too nice probably) but otherwise they lose for sure.
Which is entirely fair, but I think that in a prolonged war it comes down to development as well.
And I think that the CIS can out-develop the notoriously corrupt Empire to at least a standstill - if not to an outright victory.
I think the war would be twice as long as the CW maybe more. If it went on long enough the Empire might start running out of resources including man-power. If The CIS Could hold on long enough they could win.
a few droids did Talk bsck desert . B1s and tatical droids
Yep. Empire definitely wins
If I could make a suggestion for your next video ,Generation Tech, could you please explain why the republic didn't make a Droid army of their own.
I appreciate the occasional sarcastic comments just to make sure we are listening.
Only some types would like Destroyers or Vultures.. if you can match them against enemies they'd make short work of or be an extreme pain to deal with like Stormtroopers and Standard TIEs. Judging from what we DID see when they DID clash few times though would say for the most part the Empire would mulch them most the time into spare parts an scrap metal since besides intimidation the Empire REALLY loved overwhelming Firepower. In things absurdly hard hitting OR very suppressive when they weren't ALSO playing the numbers game
If you consider how many times the droids could have won battles but simply retreated or "lost" for the benefit of the Sith's plans id say they could definetely crumple the stormtroopers without being handicaped on purpose
This led me to realize that the Galactic Senate had less influence by the time they were dissolved than the Separatist Parliament did!
I think the space battles would go heavily against the empire. Play republic at war against a max level AI, and you'll get it. The fighter and bomber spam would be impossible to deal with. In a 1v1 an ISD would beat pretty much anything except the Subjugator and maybe Luchrehulk battleship variant. But the cheap and expendable nature of tie fighters doesn't go well against cheap droid starfighters. You can't spam crap against something spamming 20x the crap you are. In fighters, the luchrehulk holding 1500 fighters minimum vs an ISDs 72 would mean all air protection from the ISD would be gone within minutes and bombers and torpedos would chew the ISD apart. The droids just have to deploy and lay keep away long enough for the fighters to finish the job. Its essentially the space version on why aircraft carriers beat bsttleships.
Imagine a couple of payloads of buzz droids tearing apart an isd
The only reason the CIS didn’t win the Clone Wars was because Palpatine didn’t want the CIS to win. As for space superiority, the CIS had an awesome fleet, with a lot of options. The only limitation on the size of the fleet would have been be how much money the CIS would have been willing to spend. Like, if they phased out the B1 entirely, and replaced all the B1s with their more elite units they could make quick work of a ground force. Like how many Storm Troopers would it take to take down a single IG unit? Then make an army of 1,000 IG droids and pair each lIG unit with 50 Droid Commandos, and some droid tanks… an army like this would be unstoppable.
One army can't shoot other can't get
Although I agree that the eventual outcome would be an imperial victory, I don’t think they would have air superiority completely. imperial star destroyers had massive bombarding capabilities but they were lacking in anti-fighter turrets,
That is one of the reasons the rebels were so effective against them because they relied more heavily on fighters than capsule ships. Although the droid fighters wouldn’t be able to do too much of a punch having enough of them would probably be able to take them downwith Nat bites.
The only best countermeasure the Empire could have against fighters is the Tie fighter squadron, but they were severely lacking when it was compared to the separate alliance .
lol your right about the imperial navy. But serpatist droids are no match for the over whelming number of tens of trillions of army troopers and tens of billions of storm troopers. Thats also why the rebels ran btw. you had elite units from death troopers and shadow troopers all the way to dark troopers, terror troopers, imperial sentinels and nova troopers and of course force sensitive clones or stormtroopers.
It's a hard yes Palpetine too smart for his own good. I think the Empire in this situation, would be like if every predator on Earth got hit with a shrink ray and placed next to an ant hill . . .
First, great video, Allen as always. Second, your microphone needs a circumcision.
Nope setting aside ground combat CSI would lose in space it's just matter of GDP empire does control the richest and the most populous part of galaxy which is the core. In no time empire would outpace separatist with regards to capital ships. Droid army is actually a bit of downside with how the ground battles go in star wars, mechanized equipment is an afterthought, empire can just give blasters, some basic imperial army body armor and call it a day with regards to metals used, meanwhile CSI would need to make some harsh decision do they use alloys for spaceships or for ground army?