I like it a lot actually because, quite honestly, I’ll forget their names. Also it would be cool to have their games or most popular game under their name
I could listen to Xalavier for hours; great perspective and insight. Y’all had great synergy throughout, and the questions were very insightful. Fantastic interview Thomas!
Thomas, you are taking in peoples feedback on your interviewing skills. Good on you man. I know it's so hard to just listen when you are passionate about a topic. Good job!
Maaaan I got emotional at the end when Xalavier asked you to expand on making games for self expression. I've never made a game but as a creative who makes websites, logos, and now my first ever app I make things to be noticed or heard. I feel like maybe most of us that are creative are this way. Family gatherings are always exhausting to me because in my family I'm probably the most misunderstood/different person. I feel like the black sheep. But through the things I create and the people I've chosen to be in my life I don't feel like a black sheep. Also from one Christian to another, I respect your humility and honesty. I've been watching your videos close to a year now. Keep it up Thomas.
Another brilliant episode! Thomas please, if you have it in you (and only if you have it in you), keep these podcast interviews coming! Some of the most insightful, helpful and interesting Indie dev content going right now. Thanks again, sir!
What you said hits the nail on the head. After 3 years of trying and failing I made a game on a whim in about a month and it sold 5k+ copies which made more money than my job in 3 months. WORK WITHIN YOUR MEANS guys!
I'm only 17 minutes in, so I should probably watch the rest of the video before commenting, but Xalavier is pointing out the seeming lunacy of publishers adding risk to their game and now as Thomas is starting to talk about the games industry relative to restaurants, I just felt the need to chime in. I am coming from the tech startup world, and I am having an aha moment recognizing the same business model. VC funds don't exist to make small returns like restaurants, they want their startups to aim for billion dollar exits or die fast trying. They are modeled after what is referred to as portfolio theory and J curve investing. They only need one startup per fund to go big, and the rest frankly are best dead so they don't need to be actively managed. So when Xalavier pointed out the half life zombie studio no longer investing just collecting checks, that's not a failure, that's the business model.
I used to think I am naive and to idealistic but state of industry proves me right. "portfolio theory and J curve investing" stuff like this shouldnt exist in an artform industry like videogames(or movies or music). It shouldnt even be called an industry. Artists, game devs use to come first when deciding what project is next and there was no market research in the 90s and 2000s. So once these studios got big they started to bring in corporate business types to run their companies... How's that working out? These types are talent less and frankly soulless. They have no clue what's it all about. What that started to happen is talent started to leave these companies because they arent going to work under these corporate types and hence you have massive stagnation of videogames in past decade. Its not about how much development money increased, Final Fantasy was crazy expensive for its time. Its about no talent people running things, there are no visionaries to push their vision out. Rockstar is what they are solely because they still had two brothers who started it all still directing the ship. Thomas, no offense, but you are the example of this. In your last interview you were trying to figure out how other Thomas can just dive in a build what he wants and still succeed. You described it as dreamy. That's how art works. There is no theory, methods, business models. Its creative madness. And now since there is nobody in most of these big companies to run the ship, they are trying to use these marketing and business methods to come to a product because they are like in dark room prodding everywhere to get some foothold on where they are supposed to go. It doesnt work. You gotta have a flashlight(a vision) and that comes only from people who have it in their soul. And btw I like indies but there isnt enough medium scale companies who used to make majority of the market and who used to make those AA games that were more than often better than AAA. Its basically like death of the middle class in society. You got bottom feeders and upper ultra rich.
I remember in the Startup podcast from Gimlet the VC was sort of pooh-poohing the idea of a "lifestyle business" ... a cute little business that makes a steady amount of money... he had no interest in that lol
That makes a lot of sense. Because I watched the whole video and whole his push for a "safer" business model makes sense for most people, I don't myself feeling more like the VC world in that: I'm making a game that will theoretically buy my freedom, there's a high dollar amount associated with that. Making a smaller game with a smaller return doesn't "feel" worth it. That being said, a big game with that financial potential in my mind is 2 years of development. It's about knowing your goals what having a clear path to them.
Dude I discovered your podcast just yesterday and am already on my third episode. You're a great interviewer. Xalavier is inspiring and I love his practical approach! Ok back to listening, can't wait to hear the rest of this
I have spent 18 months making my first steam game. I started over after 6 months as I saw that I needed to redo level design for performance issues. Game was a 3 month plan to start. Game is fun and I built it to be commercially successful. Started to get publishers contacting me and I have never contacted them first. But I cant do 80 hours a week for over a year again making a game solo. I have plans for games I can make in 6 months in the future as making this game has broken me.
Another banger. This one really stands out. I feel like it really jumbled some paradigms for me. I care a lot about being creatively authentic. It's a process of becoming closer with ourselves spiritually. So to build off of the idea of calling our projects 'babies' probably isn't accurate, but not totally off either. It's a reflection of who we were at that point in time, and who we became on the other side of that journey. I make games because it feels important for me to do. I feel drawn to it as a method of expressing myself and ultimately growing as an individual. What's great is both of you ARE being creatively authentic. You can see it in your works, regardless of how different they are. It's beautiful.
I just love how honest Thomas is! He feels like a very close real friend who talks to you openly and make you feel better! One of my dreams is to release my game and having a chat with him! Thank you for this!
@@RafaMartinelli oh nice! That's cool. I'm curious if you'll post one on your channel one day, but I suppose you do interviews there. Yeah I'm a game developer, for all of this life, it can be a lot of fun to create games.
Lots of thanks to you both, I actually learrned more from this podcast (due to where I am in my journey) than most of the "perceived top" devs. Appreciated
This has to be one of my favorites so far. I really love his philosophy on releasing games. I will have to check out more of his (the teams) games. Amazing conversation!
I really think podcasts are the way to go! At least for me, your podcasts are my favorite type of video by far. Really appreciate all the stufd you put out!
Gold! There is a lot of power in that statement..."you can make a game in 3 days, if you build the type of game you can make in 3 days" - it's all about keeping your expectations and scope in-check! And this can scale out and still make sense whether it's 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years as discussed. "Freedom" yes, but definitely loads of "personal precision". I have a project in the works at present that has taken me 3 months up til this point and the Demo is almost ready. But I've had to use a lot of discipline to keep the scope what it is. I have no intention of it becoming a 3 year project, so I'm careful to keep the project's constraints in-check.
Great conversation! I've always found Xavalier to be really in tune with the process and craft of making games; glad to hear him speak on it more in depth.
Great conversation here, and I love Strange Scaffold's motto. And his words on precision are super spot on. We need to train to release better, faster, cheaper, and healthier.
Thank you Thomas and Xalavier, great chat and some really interesting points. Im just at rhe startinf blocks of game dev and Im now gonna make myself some concrete dates/goals for this coming year.
I think Xalavier brings a fantastic business mindset into game development, and a lot of indie devs lack this ability. For many it's an artists pursuit, with the hopes of being recognized (financially or socially). Two different sides of the same coin.
I have a feeling this is going to be a podcast to listen to multiple times. I wish I had heard of Xalavier earlier, his games look incredibly. Definitely want to really interiorize what this guy has to say.
The 'made in 6 months' type games are definitely becoming more ubiquitous on steam; leveraging a single 'cool thing' and it's essentially a 2 hr long flash game. Imo, too many of these will amount to junk. So if you're in the middle of a big project and you're not naive in your approach, don't panic because no amount of flash games can fill the same value hole that you're filling. There's always different types of value deficits in the world and time, if spent wisely, can meet the requirements of any and be appropriately rewarded. People like Xalavier have just gotten really good at providing the type of value they provide. So it shouldn't be seen as just the number of games, it's about the type of value you're hitting.
Finally, someone who has more to say than Thomas! 😆 Joking aside, it was a great conversation. This guy is awesome-I’d never heard of him before, but I’ll definitely keep an eye on him moving forward.
All I remember about Bastion was its creative director Greg Kasavin used to be a Gamespot reviewer infamous for ripping great games apart and wrongfully giving them terrible scores. I kept saying the guy was such a harsh critic he should go make his own games… then he finally did…
Excellent podcast ❤️✅😁as always I learn alot while listening 🎧.thankyou both for all the words of knowledge and encouragement.as a fairly new developer i can see both points and i think theres so much value in these podcasts!my first game im making i think is fairly large but not out of scope.i feel like some days mabey im doing it wrong then i remember that when you love what you do time isn't as relevant anymore and you just want to have fun making games ❤️keep these videos coming Thomas there excellent 👌🏼✅😁🙌🏼🙂
"Gambling addiction" YES, that makes so much sense when you look at the state of the publishers and the industry as a whole. Nobody wants to make COOL games, everyone wants to make "$$multibagger$$" games.
The problem with most projects past 1.5 years in scope is that they're packed chock full of shallow variety. Indie devs need to boil their ideas to the absolute essence, and then refine it until it stands on its own without promises of unnecessary side systems, set pieces, or even advanced graphics.
Isn't "making games" an attempt to "show love to people" on a big scale? I can't share thoughts on a topic of "feeling lost and trying to find a way out of a deep labyrinth of thoughts" with about 1 million people in a year. Therefore, I try to make a game with the narrative and ship it to Steam within the same time period. I put "answers" for a few routes to escape "the labyrinth"; therefore, I show love to people as much as I can. The analogy with babies seems to be wrong. But, the craft of making games cannot be completely ignored by the Creator when it's literally your attempt to be creative. Much love to you and your family, @Thomas
Question: What percentage of positive ratings are you targeting? Would you ever release a game thinking "Eh, it will probably get a 80% rating in its current state but that's fine and will sell okay."?
Important conversation about scope management here and how valuable constraints are (to any artist). I also think part of the game industry's collapse is what he talks about with fortnite and cod skewing expectations. But when a dev said that baldur's gate 3 was not a reasonable norm for the industry people jumped down his throat lol
@PhantomThiefXI I never looked into details bc the discourse was weird and reactionary didn't know it was the same person. His point is definitely valid.
I'm looking for a publisher or funding for my game, but I want to keep my creative freedom. Can you make a video about what to look out for when choosing a publisher. If you already did, I will probably see it when I watch your older videos.
The example of live service games is bad he takes an extreme to valid a point which he is not subject to. Takes something close to yourself to make a point because all I see is a creator releasing tech demos and making easay money when some are better than others. This is contrary to high quality Indy gaming and while it works for a bit ot only carries for so long. As an artist you want to make quality games unless you're just about the money and then you will become the problem. It start' s of the problem of game made easy and fast without anything else. Indy games should try to be risk of rain or hollow knight not this shit.
I'm not understanding the ecnomics of what he's saying. These games he has made have to be making multi-hundreds of thousands still right? Also he keeps saying "we" but it sounds like hes essentially using contractors mainly right? This model sounds like: Crank out as many quick and dirty games as possible, some will be hits, some will not and hopefully I stay net positive in the end. I wish more people actually shared their P&L so this was more clear. As well as more detail around their decision making process.
The one thing i see that its common on all the gamedevs you have been talking is that they all sold thousands but not from one game but from all games they made, seconds thing its i dont care how fast you are, i want quality, originality and all i see its games that being totally honest 99% of the games i would never buy them, soo i dont really listen to what they say because they are not where i want to be..
I’ve talked to several devs who only did it one game (Gavin with Choo Choo, Jason Smith with Cultic, Jonathan Blow with Braid, Edmund McMillen with Binding of Isaac, etc). Also, if Xalaviers games aren’t original I don’t what games are…
I’m not saying this guy is bad, but didn’t he latest game completely fall apart some guy did a video on it and it was a mess. Some of the people seem to be in denial.
If you actually watched the video Noodle made with intent youd understand that Xalavier and Stange Scaffold were trying to develop the Bass Reeves game while also working on many other projects. Due to industry pressures he had to *correctly* pivot resources to work on the game that would be more likely to be broadly adopted by gamers (El Paso Elsewhere) instead of the Bass Reeves passion project. Pivoting from a project to save a studio isnt the game "completely falling apart". Its the studio doing what it needs to do to survive. The development progress of Bass Reeves that was shown in Noodles video showed off a game made from love of this persons story and mythos, in a collaborative environment where everyones voices were heard and valued. No one on that project wanted to abandon it, but they had to. Id suggest rewatching Noodles video.
@momirslabtech you’re not entirely wrong that I wasn’t completely paying attention to the whole video. It was long, but many of the deves in it seem to be delusionally optimistic about what they could provide in a reasonable time frame and Xander was one of them. He was the project lead no?, so ultimately it was his responsibility and most seemed in denial about what was happening as it was crumbling parent studio or not
@@FrancoSerrao yeah, some of them were green devs of course they have big ideas. That's how green devs are, because they have no real experience in the industry. There are lots of pros and cons to those mindsets that can both benefit and hinder teams/projects as a whole. It's incredibly simple to look back on projects and go "omg what were they thinking theres no way they coild do that in that amount of time" whenever in the moment those concepts and features seem totally reasonable to get done in the given amount of time. This is the nature of all software development. Stuff happens, and not everything can be accounted for. This is coming from someone who has worked in tech as a developer for almost 10 years now.
Yeah, there are a lot of similar games that are failures. I visited his Steam page and reviewed his games, surprisingly to me there were hundreds and thousands of positive reviews for games that to me seem like trash, and in addition the prices of most of his games are high. But it seems like a lot of people are less picky than me, which is a good thing for business.
The games Xalavier makes follow the business strategy of "firing your customer". Many of the customers in gaming are demanding, obnoxious, and expensive to support. Intentionally or not, he's found a structure of game-making that drives them away, but leaves him with the cream - customers that are not that demanding, want the core experience on offer, and are mostly grateful that someone made this thing and it exists. One review I saw for El Paso: Elsewhere called it a "palate-cleanser", and I think that's about right - the expectations can't be super high.
@@robaustin_ First define lots of copies please. Because well 2k is not by games standards a lot of copies. 2. my priorities? nah my priorities are good games well developed these are not, these are prototypes sold as full fleshed games, you like them well good for you. High reviews alright , what is your source Steam? okay so let's go for it el paso elsewhere has 1151 reviews since release, meaning this game resonating with only the fan hardcore base, that is not very high. The scores are very positive, so as I said he makes cheap games for plenty to buy in a niche market. 1512 reviews is not a good indicator of quality games it's actually easier to get good reviews. About my priorities, sure my last game has way more reviews 6K at this stage and release at a much later date. I played the games and they are okay but cheap and feel cheap they are poorly designed and they are just chat cheap. Good reviews in small audience or small number of sales are not a good indicator of good game, just go compare to Cultic . But it's easy to talk for someone who never wrote a line of code in his life. But it fits well on this channel of carpet sellers. Nod doubt.
@@natecoet3291 Who never wrote a line of code in their life? I own a business software company and make games. His games have sold 500,000 copies and have earned millions of dollars with 94%+ steam review scores. You can see on vginsights that el paso elsewhere likely earned over $500k, and he has another game that made over $1M. Please share your studio name so that we can compare.
@@natecoet3291 Who never wrote a line of code in their life? I own a business software company and make games. His games have sold 500,000 copies and have earned millions of dollars with 94%+ steam review scores. You can see on vginsights that el paso elsewhere likely earned over $500k, and he has another game that made over $1M. Please share your studio name so that we can compare.
Who never wrote a line of code in their life? I own a business software company and make games. His games have sold 500,000 copies and have earned millions of dollars with 94%+ steam review scores. You can see on vginsights that el paso elsewhere likely earned over $500k, and he has another game that made over $1M. Please share your studio name so that we can compare.
► Strange Scaffold Games: www.strangescaffold.com/
► Get 50% off Full Time Game Dev for New Year's: fulltimegamedev.mykajabi.com/ftgd
Btw I apologize for the different “look” of the split screen. The camera was lower res and I had to make it look prettier
It looks fine man. Thanks for the vid🎉
I like it, it works. It's also nice that his name is always there, it makes it easier to remember it.
I like it a lot actually because, quite honestly, I’ll forget their names. Also it would be cool to have their games or most popular game under their name
I thought it was great.
didnt even notice til after i looked at the comments
I’ve watched dozens of your videos and you are noticeably getting better. Great job and keep it up, it’s really inspiring for us indie devs!
I could listen to Xalavier for hours; great perspective and insight. Y’all had great synergy throughout, and the questions were very insightful. Fantastic interview Thomas!
I agree!
Thomas, you are taking in peoples feedback on your interviewing skills. Good on you man. I know it's so hard to just listen when you are passionate about a topic. Good job!
Maaaan I got emotional at the end when Xalavier asked you to expand on making games for self expression. I've never made a game but as a creative who makes websites, logos, and now my first ever app I make things to be noticed or heard. I feel like maybe most of us that are creative are this way. Family gatherings are always exhausting to me because in my family I'm probably the most misunderstood/different person. I feel like the black sheep. But through the things I create and the people I've chosen to be in my life I don't feel like a black sheep.
Also from one Christian to another, I respect your humility and honesty. I've been watching your videos close to a year now. Keep it up Thomas.
U are me ...OR... I'm you ...we r same ...Well I'm a game developer, trying for fundings for my game
Another brilliant episode! Thomas please, if you have it in you (and only if you have it in you), keep these podcast interviews coming! Some of the most insightful, helpful and interesting Indie dev content going right now. Thanks again, sir!
What you said hits the nail on the head. After 3 years of trying and failing I made a game on a whim in about a month and it sold 5k+ copies which made more money than my job in 3 months. WORK WITHIN YOUR MEANS guys!
I'm only 17 minutes in, so I should probably watch the rest of the video before commenting, but Xalavier is pointing out the seeming lunacy of publishers adding risk to their game and now as Thomas is starting to talk about the games industry relative to restaurants, I just felt the need to chime in. I am coming from the tech startup world, and I am having an aha moment recognizing the same business model. VC funds don't exist to make small returns like restaurants, they want their startups to aim for billion dollar exits or die fast trying. They are modeled after what is referred to as portfolio theory and J curve investing. They only need one startup per fund to go big, and the rest frankly are best dead so they don't need to be actively managed. So when Xalavier pointed out the half life zombie studio no longer investing just collecting checks, that's not a failure, that's the business model.
Brilliantly put..
I used to think I am naive and to idealistic but state of industry proves me right. "portfolio theory and J curve investing" stuff like this shouldnt exist in an artform industry like videogames(or movies or music). It shouldnt even be called an industry. Artists, game devs use to come first when deciding what project is next and there was no market research in the 90s and 2000s. So once these studios got big they started to bring in corporate business types to run their companies... How's that working out? These types are talent less and frankly soulless. They have no clue what's it all about. What that started to happen is talent started to leave these companies because they arent going to work under these corporate types and hence you have massive stagnation of videogames in past decade. Its not about how much development money increased, Final Fantasy was crazy expensive for its time. Its about no talent people running things, there are no visionaries to push their vision out. Rockstar is what they are solely because they still had two brothers who started it all still directing the ship. Thomas, no offense, but you are the example of this. In your last interview you were trying to figure out how other Thomas can just dive in a build what he wants and still succeed. You described it as dreamy. That's how art works. There is no theory, methods, business models. Its creative madness. And now since there is nobody in most of these big companies to run the ship, they are trying to use these marketing and business methods to come to a product because they are like in dark room prodding everywhere to get some foothold on where they are supposed to go. It doesnt work. You gotta have a flashlight(a vision) and that comes only from people who have it in their soul. And btw I like indies but there isnt enough medium scale companies who used to make majority of the market and who used to make those AA games that were more than often better than AAA. Its basically like death of the middle class in society. You got bottom feeders and upper ultra rich.
I remember in the Startup podcast from Gimlet the VC was sort of pooh-poohing the idea of a "lifestyle business" ... a cute little business that makes a steady amount of money... he had no interest in that lol
That makes a lot of sense. Because I watched the whole video and whole his push for a "safer" business model makes sense for most people, I don't myself feeling more like the VC world in that: I'm making a game that will theoretically buy my freedom, there's a high dollar amount associated with that. Making a smaller game with a smaller return doesn't "feel" worth it. That being said, a big game with that financial potential in my mind is 2 years of development. It's about knowing your goals what having a clear path to them.
Dude I discovered your podcast just yesterday and am already on my third episode. You're a great interviewer. Xalavier is inspiring and I love his practical approach! Ok back to listening, can't wait to hear the rest of this
You're the man Thomas, I watch your podcasts while I develop and I find it super comforting
I have spent 18 months making my first steam game. I started over after 6 months as I saw that I needed to redo level design for performance issues. Game was a 3 month plan to start.
Game is fun and I built it to be commercially successful. Started to get publishers contacting me and I have never contacted them first. But I cant do 80 hours a week for over a year again making a game solo.
I have plans for games I can make in 6 months in the future as making this game has broken me.
Another banger. This one really stands out. I feel like it really jumbled some paradigms for me.
I care a lot about being creatively authentic. It's a process of becoming closer with ourselves spiritually. So to build off of the idea of calling our projects 'babies' probably isn't accurate, but not totally off either. It's a reflection of who we were at that point in time, and who we became on the other side of that journey. I make games because it feels important for me to do. I feel drawn to it as a method of expressing myself and ultimately growing as an individual.
What's great is both of you ARE being creatively authentic. You can see it in your works, regardless of how different they are. It's beautiful.
I just love how honest Thomas is! He feels like a very close real friend who talks to you openly and make you feel better! One of my dreams is to release my game and having a chat with him! Thank you for this!
Hey I'm a game dev too ... Should we team up?
@@tgamesfiverr Thank you for your interest but I am almost finished it :)
I hope this podcast continues to grow! Its the best one there is! So much value!
I love the moments of sincerity you allow yourself in these chats Thomas. Also the conversations have been great lately, really valuable for me
Yeah I like that about him too.
Are you a game developer as well? I remember seeing your video with Jim McCarty!
@ lol fancy meeting a mystic timer here! Yes I am a game developer, are you one too?
@@RafaMartinelli oh nice! That's cool. I'm curious if you'll post one on your channel one day, but I suppose you do interviews there. Yeah I'm a game developer, for all of this life, it can be a lot of fun to create games.
Lots of thanks to you both, I actually learrned more from this podcast (due to where I am in my journey) than most of the "perceived top" devs. Appreciated
Best podcast yet, couldve listened to these two for another hour lol such an interesting conversation.
One of the best podcasts so far, thank you Thomas and Xalavier. Makes me feel less alone and more inspired in this difficult profession we chose.
This has to be one of my favorites so far. I really love his philosophy on releasing games. I will have to check out more of his (the teams) games.
Amazing conversation!
For anyone who hasnt seen the absolute masterpiece video that Noodle made covering Xalaviers studio, you *really* need to see it.
clicked on the vid becuase of Noodles lol
I literally just saw it yesterday before this video was uploaded. lol
Lol me to@@Monte_de_Cristo
What channel is it on
@@vking225 Noodles
Loved this. One of the most insightful dev talks I’ve watched in a while. Nice!
Definitely one of the best convos so far. I'm loving these podcasts and learning a lot of great stuff from them!
I really think podcasts are the way to go! At least for me, your podcasts are my favorite type of video by far. Really appreciate all the stufd you put out!
So glad you chatted with Xalavier !!! Im a big fan of you two! :) Cheers
Gold! There is a lot of power in that statement..."you can make a game in 3 days, if you build the type of game you can make in 3 days" - it's all about keeping your expectations and scope in-check! And this can scale out and still make sense whether it's 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years as discussed. "Freedom" yes, but definitely loads of "personal precision". I have a project in the works at present that has taken me 3 months up til this point and the Demo is almost ready. But I've had to use a lot of discipline to keep the scope what it is. I have no intention of it becoming a 3 year project, so I'm careful to keep the project's constraints in-check.
Love a Xalavier’s approach to making games. It’s great to see.
Great conversation! I've always found Xavalier to be really in tune with the process and craft of making games; glad to hear him speak on it more in depth.
I love the release rate of this podcast. Keep them comin!
What a fantastic conversation! Please please please bring Xalavier on again
What a pleasure to be able to listen to such a great conversation.
This was by far the best one I seen homie really came through with some wisdom
Great conversation here, and I love Strange Scaffold's motto. And his words on precision are super spot on. We need to train to release better, faster, cheaper, and healthier.
One day i'll buy this course... Your videocast's has been so inspiring, thank you for awesome work!
Great podcast! Very eloquent guest! You guys both rule! Keep it up, Thomas!
Thank you Thomas and Xalavier, great chat and some really interesting points. Im just at rhe startinf blocks of game dev and Im now gonna make myself some concrete dates/goals for this coming year.
There is an incredible amount of information in this podcast, thank you
been waiting for an episode with Xalavier!
I think Xalavier brings a fantastic business mindset into game development, and a lot of indie devs lack this ability. For many it's an artists pursuit, with the hopes of being recognized (financially or socially). Two different sides of the same coin.
Awesome guest 🔥
Best guest in the series imo. Very nice interview
I have a feeling this is going to be a podcast to listen to multiple times. I wish I had heard of Xalavier earlier, his games look incredibly. Definitely want to really interiorize what this guy has to say.
The 'made in 6 months' type games are definitely becoming more ubiquitous on steam; leveraging a single 'cool thing' and it's essentially a 2 hr long flash game. Imo, too many of these will amount to junk. So if you're in the middle of a big project and you're not naive in your approach, don't panic because no amount of flash games can fill the same value hole that you're filling. There's always different types of value deficits in the world and time, if spent wisely, can meet the requirements of any and be appropriately rewarded. People like Xalavier have just gotten really good at providing the type of value they provide. So it shouldn't be seen as just the number of games, it's about the type of value you're hitting.
He is one of the most eloquent speakers I've ever heard.
Fantastic interview! Xalavier is awesome.
Thank you so much for this insight Thomas.
Good podcast! I've read a story someone working on the same game for 10 years in RPG maker solo and still not done. That's insanity!
thanks, great interview!
Yesss another podcast!!!
Finally, someone who has more to say than Thomas! 😆 Joking aside, it was a great conversation. This guy is awesome-I’d never heard of him before, but I’ll definitely keep an eye on him moving forward.
Xalavier is such a legend, I wish I had had this info 4 years ago.
46:47 when is the Ken Levine episode coming? He's incredible. I had a short convo with him once and he was incredibly nice
All I remember about Bastion was its creative director Greg Kasavin used to be a Gamespot reviewer infamous for ripping great games apart and wrongfully giving them terrible scores. I kept saying the guy was such a harsh critic he should go make his own games… then he finally did…
what a legend, i really related to this guy a lot. hope i get to work with him someday
Excellent podcast ❤️✅😁as always I learn alot while listening 🎧.thankyou both for all the words of knowledge and encouragement.as a fairly new developer i can see both points and i think theres so much value in these podcasts!my first game im making i think is fairly large but not out of scope.i feel like some days mabey im doing it wrong then i remember that when you love what you do time isn't as relevant anymore and you just want to have fun making games ❤️keep these videos coming Thomas there excellent 👌🏼✅😁🙌🏼🙂
intriguing chat, gentlemen!
30:35 Love the Nosferatu Wrath of Malachi insert
"I'm doing it WRONG. Buy my course!" 😅
No shame in prioritizing money man; Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Subscribed.
"Gambling addiction" YES, that makes so much sense when you look at the state of the publishers and the industry as a whole. Nobody wants to make COOL games, everyone wants to make "$$multibagger$$" games.
I'm enjoying your interviews so much that I'm thinking about developing a game even though I have no actual ability to do so
these are the lucky few who publishers respond to. not had a publisher response since the 90s.
love your answer at the end thomas
this podcast is amazing
Love Xalaviers advice. I saw him on some videos from a game writing course through EDX (pretty sure it was him), cool guy :)
Great episode!
Awesome talk
Aw "Jealous Dog" looks like my dog that passed last year. I'll have to check that game out
Xalavier is a cool dude!
You are too Thomas! God bless!
This was great advice! Thanks!
The problem with most projects past 1.5 years in scope is that they're packed chock full of shallow variety. Indie devs need to boil their ideas to the absolute essence, and then refine it until it stands on its own without promises of unnecessary side systems, set pieces, or even advanced graphics.
This one is gonna be good
This was great!
Isn't "making games" an attempt to "show love to people" on a big scale?
I can't share thoughts on a topic of "feeling lost and trying to find a way out of a deep labyrinth of thoughts" with about 1 million people in a year. Therefore, I try to make a game with the narrative and ship it to Steam within the same time period. I put "answers" for a few routes to escape "the labyrinth"; therefore, I show love to people as much as I can.
The analogy with babies seems to be wrong. But, the craft of making games cannot be completely ignored by the Creator when it's literally your attempt to be creative.
Much love to you and your family, @Thomas
El Paso Elsewhere is like the matrix and Constantine put together.
BitBlaster dev said he makes games in 3 days and they sold millions of copies.
Question: What percentage of positive ratings are you targeting? Would you ever release a game thinking "Eh, it will probably get a 80% rating in its current state but that's fine and will sell okay."?
Important conversation about scope management here and how valuable constraints are (to any artist).
I also think part of the game industry's collapse is what he talks about with fortnite and cod skewing expectations. But when a dev said that baldur's gate 3 was not a reasonable norm for the industry people jumped down his throat lol
That dev? Him
@PhantomThiefXI I never looked into details bc the discourse was weird and reactionary didn't know it was the same person. His point is definitely valid.
30:00 Thats me too Thomas 😂. I too I'm tempted to make games I can't stand.
Damn. What a good one.
I see a dude called Xalavier, I click.
Dang youve been busy!
Troll 2 mentioned. 😂
This guy gets it
I don't know. I'm trying to make a tiny game myself. But I'm not going the full time. If I was I would probably want to make something grand.
Resume @32:00
that El Paso game dev cost was 5mil????
this mentality is probably why the quality of games keeps going down and we gets 100s of them every day on steam
Babies only take 9 months to make.
Hahaha. they are really fun to make too
@thomasbrush 😂 for sure. Also, failing to make them and try again is just as fun.
I'm looking for a publisher or funding for my game, but I want to keep my creative freedom. Can you make a video about what to look out for when choosing a publisher. If you already did, I will probably see it when I watch your older videos.
30:20 Skill Issue
Great interview, just talking shit.
do tokija mraleee
The example of live service games is bad he takes an extreme to valid a point which he is not subject to. Takes something close to yourself to make a point because all I see is a creator releasing tech demos and making easay money when some are better than others. This is contrary to high quality Indy gaming and while it works for a bit ot only carries for so long. As an artist you want to make quality games unless you're just about the money and then you will become the problem. It start' s of the problem of game made easy and fast without anything else. Indy games should try to be risk of rain or hollow knight not this shit.
I'm not understanding the ecnomics of what he's saying.
These games he has made have to be making multi-hundreds of thousands still right?
Also he keeps saying "we" but it sounds like hes essentially using contractors mainly right?
This model sounds like: Crank out as many quick and dirty games as possible, some will be hits, some will not and hopefully I stay net positive in the end.
I wish more people actually shared their P&L so this was more clear. As well as more detail around their decision making process.
Marvel Avengers was PURE BORING SLOP
The one thing i see that its common on all the gamedevs you have been talking is that they all sold thousands but not from one game but from all games they made, seconds thing its i dont care how fast you are, i want quality, originality and all i see its games that being totally honest 99% of the games i would never buy them, soo i dont really listen to what they say because they are not where i want to be..
I’ve talked to several devs who only did it one game (Gavin with Choo Choo, Jason Smith with Cultic, Jonathan Blow with Braid, Edmund McMillen with Binding of Isaac, etc). Also, if Xalaviers games aren’t original I don’t what games are…
He's not even watched it. He posted this 10m after post lol
@@thomasbrush don't listen to them Thomas! Keep going...
I’m not saying this guy is bad, but didn’t he latest game completely fall apart some guy did a video on it and it was a mess. Some of the people seem to be in denial.
If you actually watched the video Noodle made with intent youd understand that Xalavier and Stange Scaffold were trying to develop the Bass Reeves game while also working on many other projects. Due to industry pressures he had to *correctly* pivot resources to work on the game that would be more likely to be broadly adopted by gamers (El Paso Elsewhere) instead of the Bass Reeves passion project. Pivoting from a project to save a studio isnt the game "completely falling apart". Its the studio doing what it needs to do to survive.
The development progress of Bass Reeves that was shown in Noodles video showed off a game made from love of this persons story and mythos, in a collaborative environment where everyones voices were heard and valued. No one on that project wanted to abandon it, but they had to.
Id suggest rewatching Noodles video.
@momirslabtech you’re not entirely wrong that I wasn’t completely paying attention to the whole video. It was long, but many of the deves in it seem to be delusionally optimistic about what they could provide in a reasonable time frame and Xander was one of them. He was the project lead no?, so ultimately it was his responsibility and most seemed in denial about what was happening as it was crumbling parent studio or not
@@FrancoSerrao yeah, some of them were green devs of course they have big ideas. That's how green devs are, because they have no real experience in the industry. There are lots of pros and cons to those mindsets that can both benefit and hinder teams/projects as a whole.
It's incredibly simple to look back on projects and go "omg what were they thinking theres no way they coild do that in that amount of time" whenever in the moment those concepts and features seem totally reasonable to get done in the given amount of time. This is the nature of all software development. Stuff happens, and not everything can be accounted for. This is coming from someone who has worked in tech as a developer for almost 10 years now.
Love the interview but it's a bit uncomfortable having you stare at the camera the entire time, maybe chill out a bit and relax
Honestly i dont get what the hype about that game is. It feels like fake hype.
Yeah, there are a lot of similar games that are failures. I visited his Steam page and reviewed his games, surprisingly to me there were hundreds and thousands of positive reviews for games that to me seem like trash, and in addition the prices of most of his games are high. But it seems like a lot of people are less picky than me, which is a good thing for business.
The games Xalavier makes follow the business strategy of "firing your customer". Many of the customers in gaming are demanding, obnoxious, and expensive to support. Intentionally or not, he's found a structure of game-making that drives them away, but leaves him with the cream - customers that are not that demanding, want the core experience on offer, and are mostly grateful that someone made this thing and it exists. One review I saw for El Paso: Elsewhere called it a "palate-cleanser", and I think that's about right - the expectations can't be super high.
The issues is that xalovier makes games that look and feel cheap. They make money but they are just that, cheap.
They have very high review scores and sell a lot of copies, I think you may need to reevaluate your priorities.
@@robaustin_ First define lots of copies please. Because well 2k is not by games standards a lot of copies. 2. my priorities? nah my priorities are good games well developed these are not, these are prototypes sold as full fleshed games, you like them well good for you. High reviews alright , what is your source Steam? okay so let's go for it el paso elsewhere has 1151 reviews since release, meaning this game resonating with only the fan hardcore base, that is not very high. The scores are very positive, so as I said he makes cheap games for plenty to buy in a niche market. 1512 reviews is not a good indicator of quality games it's actually easier to get good reviews. About my priorities, sure my last game has way more reviews 6K at this stage and release at a much later date. I played the games and they are okay but cheap and feel cheap they are poorly designed and they are just chat cheap. Good reviews in small audience or small number of sales are not a good indicator of good game, just go compare to Cultic . But it's easy to talk for someone who never wrote a line of code in his life. But it fits well on this channel of carpet sellers. Nod doubt.
@@natecoet3291 Who never wrote a line of code in their life? I own a business software company and make games.
His games have sold 500,000 copies and have earned millions of dollars with 94%+ steam review scores. You can see on vginsights that el paso elsewhere likely earned over $500k, and he has another game that made over $1M.
Please share your studio name so that we can compare.
@@natecoet3291 Who never wrote a line of code in their life? I own a business software company and make games.
His games have sold 500,000 copies and have earned millions of dollars with 94%+ steam review scores. You can see on vginsights that el paso elsewhere likely earned over $500k, and he has another game that made over $1M.
Please share your studio name so that we can compare.
Who never wrote a line of code in their life? I own a business software company and make games.
His games have sold 500,000 copies and have earned millions of dollars with 94%+ steam review scores. You can see on vginsights that el paso elsewhere likely earned over $500k, and he has another game that made over $1M.
Please share your studio name so that we can compare.