The comments at the end of this episode ("key scenes" and "capacity for optimism") were gold. I've finished Gravity's Rainbow once. But I wasn't sure how much I'd get out of a re-read. Listening to this made me hungry to go back to it. Really appreciate all the research and effort you put into getting your thoughts online.
Congratulations on the best analysis of GR I have found on the internet so far. I thought I would contribute my own interpretation here because I think there is a message of hope in this novel. I think of the V2 rocket and Slothrop as following the same trajectory and the same dilemma. The engineers address the problem that the rocket can only be guided until it reaches the peak of its arc and after that it just goes where it goes. They never have complete and absolute control over it. "They" have the same problem with Slothrop. The scientists and film makers push and prod him in the direction they want him to go in but he always eludes their grasp at a certain point. Usually this is because he pursues hedonistic pleasures like sex or drugs. Even though he is at the mercy of powers bigger than him, he resist in his small way by pursuing his own interests. "Do your own thing" was a motto of the 960s. The fact that they keep pursuing him is a sign that they do not have absolute control over him and in a way he might have some power over them. They pursue and try to control him but he isn't pursuing them so in that there is a type of power and freedom. Eventually they give up pursuing him and he disappears into the forest. I always thought he turned nto the Greek god Pan being naked, living in nature, and playing mysterious music that no one can find the source of. Maybe his harmonica is a pan pipe? Anyways I think this is the "back to nature" aspect of the 60s counter culture. I think Pynchon is saying that even though we are subject to manipulation by corporations and government, there is a side to humanity that can never be controlled. "They can take your body but they can't take your soul" said Orwell in 1984. It also makes me think of the engineers at the plastic factory (3rd section of the novel). When they invent plastic, the chemist explains that they invented it by eliminating the carbon molecule. Humans and all living creatures are carbon based life forms. The engineers explain that plastic can be molded, used and controlled in any way possible. So in other words that carbon molecule is symbolic of a part of humanity that is impossible to control. It's like Slothrop is the base of the V in the V2 rocket and the two lines emerging out of that point are control and freedom. The two lines go off in different directions but are equal in length. They can never cancel each other out because they diverge into infinity. I am also considering the possibility that all the humor in the book is a means of resisting control. I definitely think there is a message of hope in GR if you know where to look.
By the way, the Kirghiz Light is what inspires Tchitcherine to pursue the V2 rocket. When he is creating the Cyrillic alphabet for the Kirghiz language he listens to the mystic tell about his mystical experience. The mystic actually saw an atomic bomb detonation and it blinded him. He interpreted this a sign that the visible world is not the real world and that truth is something that can not be physically seen. Tchitcherine hears this and it inspires him to go searching for the V2 which is something he never sees by the end of the novel.. Maybe this is Pynchon's version of the fascination with the occult and exotic mysticism that became so popular in the 1960s counter culture. Don't all these characters find something liberating in the act of pursuit? Maybe it doesn't actually matter what they pursue just as long as they are pursuing something like the rocket or otherwise. Maybe that individualistic pursuit is a means of resisting control since "They" are not the ones who are controlling what the individuals pursue. "They" would rather have them be obedient and staying in their place.
Watching both episodes back to back because I just finished reading GR for the first time at the end of 2023 and the timing here is perfect. I have to agree with @raphbiss1 who wanted 15 more episodes. This was a good overview of ideas and themes and vibes, but I wish you could have gone in depth to specific scenes and characters and meaning. But maybe that would be longer than the book! Anyway. Thanks a ton. Will check out more of your stuff.
I read the "I was so high when I wrote this (a stack of papers he had thrown down on the table) that I no longer know what it means" in Jules Siegle's LINELAND. Great discussion, thanks.
Shaggy dog story - not about finding the answer, this allows to focus on systematic issues. Slothrop being made aware of pain and destruction as opposed to Predicting rockets Failure of system in 60s. Only expression is left: Only way to stop their systems of order is to use their systems of chaos. (??) Wagner - ring cycle power is bad itself, not just one person. Control is wanted by the gods too.
Interesting dialogue to paint to, believe it or not! One question from a pleb : I don’t understand why Seth disidenties your interpretative discussion with “quasi-academic readings”specifically the Orphic point ? Surely this isn’t necessary as your whole discussion is fundamentally quasi-academic. Thankfully it’s not a discussion within the impoverished intellectual limits of the university system. What makes the discussion worthwhile is that it’s following thoughts down rabbit holes. I get the low brow stuff as not typically academic but I wdnt imply a reference to mythic figures or historical references means it’s merely quasi academic. The whole thing is interesting to the extent it remains quasi-academic as it’s an obviously intellectual talk not within the academy. ‘Quasi academic’ is everything here… maybe embrace it as you guys drop German words, an extremely close reading of history and paint the chaotic allusions in the book, the 780 page prose poem. Quasi academic means freedom from the hackneyed readings of the Academy, whether it’s literature, philosophy or psychiatry.
Great video ! We need 15 more episodes !
Thank you so much! We wish we could and the book needs it, just to get through all the madness of it.
The comments at the end of this episode ("key scenes" and "capacity for optimism") were gold. I've finished Gravity's Rainbow once. But I wasn't sure how much I'd get out of a re-read. Listening to this made me hungry to go back to it. Really appreciate all the research and effort you put into getting your thoughts online.
Many thanks for listening! Enjoy the many reads of GR to come.
Congratulations on the best analysis of GR I have found on the internet so far. I thought I would contribute my own interpretation here because I think there is a message of hope in this novel. I think of the V2 rocket and Slothrop as following the same trajectory and the same dilemma. The engineers address the problem that the rocket can only be guided until it reaches the peak of its arc and after that it just goes where it goes. They never have complete and absolute control over it. "They" have the same problem with Slothrop. The scientists and film makers push and prod him in the direction they want him to go in but he always eludes their grasp at a certain point. Usually this is because he pursues hedonistic pleasures like sex or drugs. Even though he is at the mercy of powers bigger than him, he resist in his small way by pursuing his own interests. "Do your own thing" was a motto of the 960s. The fact that they keep pursuing him is a sign that they do not have absolute control over him and in a way he might have some power over them. They pursue and try to control him but he isn't pursuing them so in that there is a type of power and freedom. Eventually they give up pursuing him and he disappears into the forest. I always thought he turned nto the Greek god Pan being naked, living in nature, and playing mysterious music that no one can find the source of. Maybe his harmonica is a pan pipe? Anyways I think this is the "back to nature" aspect of the 60s counter culture. I think Pynchon is saying that even though we are subject to manipulation by corporations and government, there is a side to humanity that can never be controlled. "They can take your body but they can't take your soul" said Orwell in 1984.
It also makes me think of the engineers at the plastic factory (3rd section of the novel). When they invent plastic, the chemist explains that they invented it by eliminating the carbon molecule. Humans and all living creatures are carbon based life forms. The engineers explain that plastic can be molded, used and controlled in any way possible. So in other words that carbon molecule is symbolic of a part of humanity that is impossible to control. It's like Slothrop is the base of the V in the V2 rocket and the two lines emerging out of that point are control and freedom. The two lines go off in different directions but are equal in length. They can never cancel each other out because they diverge into infinity. I am also considering the possibility that all the humor in the book is a means of resisting control. I definitely think there is a message of hope in GR if you know where to look.
By the way, the Kirghiz Light is what inspires Tchitcherine to pursue the V2 rocket. When he is creating the Cyrillic alphabet for the Kirghiz language he listens to the mystic tell about his mystical experience. The mystic actually saw an atomic bomb detonation and it blinded him. He interpreted this a sign that the visible world is not the real world and that truth is something that can not be physically seen. Tchitcherine hears this and it inspires him to go searching for the V2 which is something he never sees by the end of the novel.. Maybe this is Pynchon's version of the fascination with the occult and exotic mysticism that became so popular in the 1960s counter culture. Don't all these characters find something liberating in the act of pursuit? Maybe it doesn't actually matter what they pursue just as long as they are pursuing something like the rocket or otherwise. Maybe that individualistic pursuit is a means of resisting control since "They" are not the ones who are controlling what the individuals pursue. "They" would rather have them be obedient and staying in their place.
Cool stuff. Many thanks!
Watching both episodes back to back because I just finished reading GR for the first time at the end of 2023 and the timing here is perfect. I have to agree with @raphbiss1 who wanted 15 more episodes. This was a good overview of ideas and themes and vibes, but I wish you could have gone in depth to specific scenes and characters and meaning. But maybe that would be longer than the book! Anyway. Thanks a ton. Will check out more of your stuff.
2nd part almost topped the first - brilliant stuff! Giving Pynchon the respect he deserves.
Wonderful discussion. Thank you!
Wonderful comment. Thanks for listening.
I read the "I was so high when I wrote this (a stack of papers he had thrown down on the table) that I no longer know what it means" in Jules Siegle's LINELAND.
Great discussion, thanks.
The line is originally from Siegel’s Playboy article
Great context, thank you, I appreciate the thoughtful content.
Glad it was helpful!
Shaggy dog story - not about finding the answer, this allows to focus on systematic issues.
Slothrop being made aware of pain and destruction as opposed to Predicting rockets
Failure of system in 60s. Only expression is left: Only way to stop their systems of order is to use their systems of chaos. (??)
Wagner - ring cycle power is bad itself, not just one person. Control is wanted by the gods too.
Im late, but that photo you put in of Chris from Leaf By Leaf 😂of all the ones
Seth made reference to one of his excellent points. With all love for @LeafbyLeaf. One of our favorites on UA-cam.
Interesting dialogue to paint to, believe it or not! One question from a pleb : I don’t understand why Seth disidenties your interpretative discussion with “quasi-academic readings”specifically the Orphic point ? Surely this isn’t necessary as your whole discussion is fundamentally quasi-academic. Thankfully it’s not a discussion within the impoverished intellectual limits of the university system. What makes the discussion worthwhile is that it’s following thoughts down rabbit holes. I get the low brow stuff as not typically academic but I wdnt imply a reference to mythic figures or historical references means it’s merely quasi academic. The whole thing is interesting to the extent it remains quasi-academic as it’s an obviously intellectual talk not within the academy. ‘Quasi academic’ is everything here… maybe embrace it as you guys drop German words, an extremely close reading of history and paint the chaotic allusions in the book, the 780 page prose poem. Quasi academic means freedom from the hackneyed readings of the Academy, whether it’s literature, philosophy or psychiatry.