Please read more about this in the website blog entry: ibuildit.ca/blog/my-philosophy-on-joinery/ You can help support the work I do in making these videos: Project plans for sale: ibuildit.ca/plans/ Support this channel on Patreon: www.patreon.com/user?u=865843&ty=h My main channel: ua-cam.com/users/jpheisz My home reno channel: ua-cam.com/users/IBuildItHome My "Scrap bin" channel: ua-cam.com/users/IBuildItScrapBin Website: ibuildit.ca/ Facebook: facebook.com/I-Build-It-258048014240900/ Instagram: instagram.com/i_build_it.ca/
'Fit for purpose' is part of good design. Enjoyment is part of any hobby - and with it, choices where time and money are spent. The recent run of videos from John and Matthias has been great, in my opinion. The upside to the negative chatter that has in part motivated it, is the conversation generated. Thank you both!
One of the best things about John's (and Matthias') videos is that they make you think. You don't necessarily agree with everything but you are entertained and, to some extent, educated. Please keep the videos coming!
John, Words of hard-earned wisdom! It is one thing to over-build your own home or a good chair, but purpose built should be the norm. If a project is multi-purpose then build for the worst case scenario, otherwise building to do the job well is just perfect on so many levels. The big question, that I often forget to ask myself is, ‘...do I want this to last 10, 20, or 200 years?’. Sort of puts perspective on the project. Keep going just as you are!
Aloha John , I came up with a tool that like the pantograph used for cutting out joints 20+ years ago ,was instead of a router doing the cutting of joints , was a angle grinder craving seats for Koa Rockers that we were making . Like a pantograph but so much simpler . It used a balanced arm and two discs . One disc was a mirror of the cutter [chain saw disc] that the angle grinder worked with . Before this 'copier craver' , it took the best guy a day or two to produce one seat for a rocker , and it that , he was all wore out . The copier could produce 5 a day . Some day I might be able to repeat the plans , but the basic machine was a tube of strong cardboard mailer tube ,counter weighted with a gallon jug of water to off set the weight of the grinder and the twin booms of the grinder/holder and the follower , no springs ,just gravity . The table was maybe 6 X 4 feet , and the mailer tube was on its length across the span of the center of the table , basically floating to your inputs . The copier 'feeler' touch down to your pattern of a seat and the craving blank was screwed down next to it . As things cranked up , we needed to make more than 10 of those rockers weekly to meet the demand . So much so that FedEx would treat us at the end of the year as a thank you from their crew .
I would mainly use a box joint for a small shop bin like that so I could make it out of thinner material than I could shoot a nail into reliably. They will hold themselves together without any clamps so you can batch them out almost as easily as nailing butt joints. You don't even have to be fussy about spreading glue everywhere on the joint because you've got surface area to burn.
I believe that is why so many old cigar boxes are made this way. Obviously they were batching things together, and may even have had special equipment to really speed up the cutting. But this was all in the service of making a thinner, lighter, cheaper box. Also, metal was, and still is, a lot more expensive then glue.
Time is money. Quality is forever. Time and quality is a happy customer. Complex joints when not needed is eye candy. All things have a purpose. Practical craftsmanship may include any or all of these depending on the desire of who is paying for the product. It is awesome to me how you constantly reaffirm your practical philosophy and the understandable method of its communication. Stay the course John, as I, if no one else, need you as a companion. Gerry Smith Houston Texas
Totally agree, I "over build" my projects. I need to learn how to build a project for its purpose. For example a simple end table doesn't need to be able to hold a ton of weight. Two thumbs up!
Good lesson John, thanks for sharing. Ist's a good idea to make a brake every now and then, and think about what you are realy doing and why. Rgds from Germany, Robert
Wise words, well spoken and showing the experience and (unfortunately uncommon) common sense from your years in the trade. Yes, pretty joints are nice to look at but are they necessary? Just because you can make dovetails etc doesn’t mean you need to. Your examples are spot on!
Almost all of my shop furniture is plywood held together with 18ga brads and glue. Some of it is 20years old now and most of it has seen some heavy use. Even things like my shop stands and tables are plywood held together like that at 90* angles making longer members like legs. I have a few cases where it was something heavier and might have gotten a full lumber frame and then it got screws and glue. Nothing has fallen apart or had to be repaired/reinforced in any way with one notable exception, the carcass of a shop filtration unit that has one joint pulling apart (I've yet to pull it apart and figure out why right now it has one joint that has about a 1/32" gap in it and I might just squeeze some glue in it and drive a couple of screws in it and leave it. When I build important/nice things I'll usually use better "joinery," like when I built my daughter a doll bed that she insisted was "like real furniture" it got all dowel joints, but it also got stain covered in clear poly, a custom mattress, and sheets... You build to serve the function of what you're building. Occasionally you might overbuild (either in quality or strength), but that would be to test/practice something for a future project. If you build everything to the best quality you can you'll never get to your real projects, unless you're one of those people that just builds shop projects and nothing else.
As always another excellent video. When companies make tools, they do so for the masses and therefore are not perfect for everyone. In understanding this, I can see why you have made it even better. The fact that the company took exception is their loss. Maybe they could have learned from what you did and incorporated it in later production models so that their customers would benefit. Enough for my rant, as always John, your common sense approach is something that we can all learn from, I know that I tend to overbuild and you video has given me some food for thought.
I was once a traditional joinery purist, and when appropriate will still use traditional joinery, but to use an example, sometimes nothing beats a threaded rod - and realistically, if they had had threaded rod 150 years ago, they would have used it.
I agree John. I believe some build a certain way cause they may feel like a hack if they don’t vs something that is appropriate for the task that’s needed. I myself and probably like most only have so much time and many things to get done.
Shop projects are about getting shit done. Thank you for your time you invest in this. I really like your balance of fine and creative woodworking and just getting shit done. I don't have time for planning and dovetails except I maybe build something for my mom for a present. 95% I built stuff for my house on the weekends and the evenings. Little boxes and shelves. I did study mechanical engineering and like overengineered furniture or jigs like Matthias has very much, but those almost never pay for the time I invest in them. I need stuff done and very often your way is the way to go. Keep up the good work! Love your channel. I like Matthias' pushsticks better, though. :-P (might be a german thing)
Man I been putting off replacing my kitchen drawers because I am afraid of the joints. glueing together butt joints I can do. I must try it. thanks for the video. you would laugh if you saw my kitchen drawers they are in such need of repair.
What you said at the very end of the video is the key, are you a production carpenter or a hobbist, when I am at work I am a production carpenter, but when I get home in my shop I like to have fun with the journey leave all the hurry hurry back at the jobsite, I enjoy taking the long way round on my home projects. and besides you do have the better boxjoint fixture use it as much as possible to sell your plans.
Function....all about function. These days my machined dovetails are very few..Hand cut dovetails on drawers rarely have more than two joints because that's all is needed. In the end when the function is meet I feel it's good to go..My creation,my satisfaction..
You talk about the addition of a cleat for added strength. Unless I'm mistaken, that cleat would be solid wood, and subject to expansion/contraction would it not?
Does the tracing pin need to be lined up with the router bit? Because you are tracing, I don't think it matters. Offsets don't affect the pattern produced by the router bit. So it seems to me that the only critical alignment is the router bit with the work piece.
True, John. I was thinking that one could position the pin on the template and then just position the cutter with the workpiece accordingly. Am I missing something?
It occurred to me that this setup could be viewed as a reconfiguration of a pin router. Now I am wondering what other reconfigurations might be useful, like an offset version for a router fixed in a table. The pin does not have to be centered over the router bit and so the pin arm does not need to be so long. I suppose setup would not be as simple (once the pin is properly centered) in general, but maybe there are cases where it's worth it?
My trade is software development. I follow the mantra 'Simplest thing that works, but no simpler' for the same reason. Over engineering is a deadly curse in software development. As is oversimplification.
I'd be the first one to use glue and brad nails wherever possible, but not for Cremona's High Boy where form and appearance are more important than function
@@amiddled I wonder that. His stuff seems to go together pretty quick. I wouldn't doubt if he has a workshop of elves doing it all while he takes frequent cat naps and soaks after tossing around 12ft wide oak logs one handed.
Well here is my 2 cents, first let me say that i have been watching you, jay, and matthias for a long time now. There is always a easy and short way to make something, u just happen to take that route u make a lot of shop stuff, and of course u dont need fancy joinery to toss some screws in. But i dont think most people put them into most projects for strength, more so for looks. And well u use construction plywood for most everything. Jay likes to build a lot of furniture/ things made out of more expensive wood, and why not put fancy joints in those projects. Matthias one of my favs, loves the technical aspect of things and gets his joy out of that. At the end of the day build things that are fun to u and the way that best suits that. It is nice having different people to watch and there different approaches to everything, and that is what helps in creativity and for u guys i guess in some sense a bit of competitiveness which is always good. I know opinions are like assholes, but if u like what u are doing just do it.
Full Ack. Good engineering always means optimise/minimise time&materials to get something done, and find (new) ways around obstacles. If you have unlimited resources, you don't need engineering.
I was watching some of your safety videos and yes it looks super sketch from the view of the camera but when you're actually at the table saw or grinder you know where your fingers are and you have more view angles. + he has _experience_
YT is full of all sorts of DIY/Maker/woodworkers with different perspectives, I don't understand why commenters have trouble reconciling that different project have different measures of success. I've always thought that you provided a great perspective on how to setup a shop for home projects with an eye for finding ways to maximize quality while respecting the value of your own time (i.e. exactly what I'd hope to accomplish by choosing to DIY something around my own house). It's a completely different perspective, or reason for being in the shop, than say Wood by Wright, whose purpose is to teach traditional hand tool woodworking as its own end. I wouldn't comment on his channel "you should have just used a [powertool]" the same way I wouldn't comment "dovetail drawers are stronger" on your channel. Both completely ignore the perspective of the channel.
John, you just said that the manufacturer of the metal pantorouter gave you flak for making modifications to your personal machine. That offends me, irritates me and quite frankly pisses me off! As you know, and probably most of your subscribers know, the pantorouter was conceived, invented and built by Matthias Wandell. Kuldeep Singh was impressed enough with Matthias's creation that he took Mathias's design and created a metal version of it to sell for profit. He modified Mathias's design and now has the audacity to give you flak for modifying his design changes to Matthias's work. Isn't that exactly what he did to Matthias's original design? I have supported Matthias by purchasing plans from him and I will continue to do so but I will not support anyone who tries to strong arm someone for making modifications to their personal property. What makes UA-cam so great is the sharing of ideas and the continued development of, and improvement to, those shared ideas. Because Kuldeep Singh took an idea from UA-cam and turned that idea into a commercial venture he now wants to stifle any further development by creative UA-camrs. I find that to be OFFENSIVE! I have been considering purchasing the metal version until just this moment. I will no longer consider doing business with Kuldeep Singh or anyone who represents the product he sells. Anyone can purchase the plans from Matthias Wandel and make either a wood version or a metal version for far less money than it would cost to purchase the metal version today. You can buy the plans here from Matthias Wandell, the original inventor: woodgears.ca/pantorouter/plans You can see all of Matthias's UA-cam videos here: ua-cam.com/users/Matthiaswandel
It wasn't Kuldeep that said anything, it was Woodcraft. Maybe I misspoke when I said "manufacturer", since I just assumed that Woodcraft was making them now. Maybe they are just marketing them.
John, thanks for the clarification but it doesn't change my opinion. If Woodcraft is now marketing the pantorouter, I find it offensive that they feel they have the right to stifle anyone from modifying their own personal property and demonstrating those modifications on UA-cam! Woodcraft made a MAJOR mistake by trying to stifle american ingenuity and creativity for its own commercialism. Following Woodcraft's philosophy they shared with you, it would be wrong for anyone to ever try to improve or simply make personal modifications to commercial tools. As an example, there are many jointers and planers that are sold with traditional two knife or three knife cutters but someone decided they could improve those tools by creating Helix cutterheads. The Helix cutterhead is a substantial improvement and I for one am very happy that someone designed, developed and markets this cutterhead. Stifling innovation is never good for anyone! Do you think the creation of the Helix cutterhead has hurt the sales of jointers and planers? I don't think so. In fact, if anything the creation of the Helix cutterhead has improved the sale of jointers and planers because it improves the overall quality of cut. By you creating and demonstrating what you consider a better solution to a perceived problem could very well lead to a design change in the pantorouter that benefits everyone. But, if we followed Woodcraft's philosophy, the world could miss out on possible improvements to existing products. This country was founded on ingenuity and innovation and I hope that Woodcraft gives serious consideration as to how they choose to interact with the woodworking community and the Maker community. The Maker community is burgeoning and is creating many new innovations that has the potential to benefit everyone and I support that concept of growth and development and I absolutely abhor heavy handed tactics. I am an avid consumer of UA-cam ideas and innovation and consider the free expression of ideas to be fundamental to the growth of innovation and ingenuity! The other thing I find so interesting about this is that in one of the videos from Matthias he stated that he gave you the pantorouter that you own and modified. In other videos, Matthias also stated that Kuldeep Singh has sent him metal pantorouters to try out. It appears that the pantorouter you have most likely came from Kuldeep Singh and not from Woodcraft. It would be interesting to know if that is true. Woodcraft just lost a customer, me! I can purchase anything Woodcraft sells from other outlets such as Rockler, Amazon, Peachtree Woodworking, Highland Woodworking, Lee Valley, Sommerfeld Tools, Infinity Tools, Axminster Tools in England, and many, many, other resellers of woodworking tools and materials. I have been a Woodcraft customer and have purchased tools from Woodcraft in the past, including this year, but no more! With the internet capability of today, I have purchased tools from England, Germany, Canada and many online, and brick and mortar retailers in the U.S. Not doing business with Woodcraft won't hurt me at all! In my opinion, whoever reached out to you from Woodcraft and gave you flak should be fired! I stand by and repeat my previous statement that I will no longer consider doing business with Kuldeep Singh or anyone who represents the product he sells. Anyone can purchase the plans from Matthias Wandel and make either a wood version or a metal version for far less money than it would cost to purchase the metal version today. You can buy the plans from Matthias Wandell, the original inventor at: woodgears.ca/pantorouter/plans You can see all of Matthias's UA-cam videos here: ua-cam.com/users/Matthiaswandel
I'm surprised that I have yet to see anyone make drawers the way I do now: I use 1/2" plywood all around, glue and brad nail everything together, then come back and drill holes through the mating surfaces and glue dowels into them and cut the dowels flush. It's faster than biscuits even since there's no marking required, and it's gotta be stronger too. I don't see much value in dovetailed drawers other than bragging rights.
Very good philosophy! All these people out there spending money on plastic bins could be making much stronger pieces for their shops! That they would have for many years. It just seems like it's become such a disposable era. They will find every year that they're going to have to replace those plastic boxes! And every year they put out the money for it. I just don't understand it.
Am I colour blind??? I thought I was on the Scrap bin chn LOL. My philosophy, close enough is good enough, BTW IMHO, you need a Festool Domino... Please don't ban me, I'm only kidding
I wouldn't mind having one and it's something that I'd probably use. Maybe I should make something similar (and yes, before anyone feels the need to point it out, I know that others have built domino machines)
Hundreds of craftspeople have a different opinion based on a our experience with the PantoRouter. If it's faster, easier, more accurate and safer to use the PantoRouter, then it's the right tool for the job. If it takes less time to build with mortise and tenon than other joinery, why not? And, if it's more fun to use a very clever tool that creates no dust, and makes dovetails, box joints and even compound angles easily approachable for the hobbyist or professional, then I'm going to use the PantoRouter every time. No doubt about it, if all you build is shop fixtures and the like, there's no need for anything but butt joints, glue and screws. If you want to improve your craft, and want to make beautiful furniture pieces that will last for generations, the PantoRouter's the tool for you.
Please read more about this in the website blog entry:
ibuildit.ca/blog/my-philosophy-on-joinery/
You can help support the work I do in making these videos:
Project plans for sale: ibuildit.ca/plans/
Support this channel on Patreon:
www.patreon.com/user?u=865843&ty=h
My main channel:
ua-cam.com/users/jpheisz
My home reno channel:
ua-cam.com/users/IBuildItHome
My "Scrap bin" channel:
ua-cam.com/users/IBuildItScrapBin
Website: ibuildit.ca/
Facebook: facebook.com/I-Build-It-258048014240900/
Instagram: instagram.com/i_build_it.ca/
Woodworking Tips and Tricks im now getting recommendations on older videos - maybe the experiment is working...
Man I wish this video was around 3 or 4 years ago when I was constantly getting slammed for using pocket hole screws and brad nails. Well said.
'Fit for purpose' is part of good design. Enjoyment is part of any hobby - and with it, choices where time and money are spent. The recent run of videos from John and Matthias has been great, in my opinion. The upside to the negative chatter that has in part motivated it, is the conversation generated. Thank you both!
One of the best things about John's (and Matthias') videos is that they make you think. You don't necessarily agree with everything but you are entertained and, to some extent, educated. Please keep the videos coming!
John,
Words of hard-earned wisdom!
It is one thing to over-build your own home or a good chair, but purpose built should be the norm. If a project is multi-purpose then build for the worst case scenario, otherwise building to do the job well is just perfect on so many levels.
The big question, that I often forget to ask myself is, ‘...do I want this to last 10, 20, or 200 years?’. Sort of puts perspective on the project.
Keep going just as you are!
I love to tinker with things too, to see how they work. Problem is, the usually don't work after that :(
Being someone just starting my little workshop, this video came along at just the right time.
Agreed John!
We tend to over-engineer / build things and as you said, it takes time and costs unneccessary money!
Your awesome John. Thank you for your honest and practical approach to wood working.
Aloha John ,
I came up with a tool that like the pantograph used for cutting out joints 20+ years ago ,was instead of a router doing the cutting of joints , was a angle grinder craving seats for Koa Rockers that we were making . Like a pantograph but so much simpler . It used a balanced arm and two discs . One disc was a mirror of the cutter [chain saw disc] that the angle grinder worked with . Before this 'copier craver' , it took the best guy a day or two to produce one seat for a rocker , and it that , he was all wore out . The copier could produce 5 a day . Some day I might be able to repeat the plans , but the basic machine was a tube of strong cardboard mailer tube ,counter weighted with a gallon jug of water to off set the weight of the grinder and the twin booms of the grinder/holder and the follower , no springs ,just gravity . The table was maybe 6 X 4 feet , and the mailer tube was on its length across the span of the center of the table , basically floating to your inputs . The copier 'feeler' touch down to your pattern of a seat and the craving blank was screwed down next to it . As things cranked up , we needed to make more than 10 of those rockers weekly to meet the demand . So much so that FedEx would treat us at the end of the year as a thank you from their crew .
I would mainly use a box joint for a small shop bin like that so I could make it out of thinner material than I could shoot a nail into reliably. They will hold themselves together without any clamps so you can batch them out almost as easily as nailing butt joints. You don't even have to be fussy about spreading glue everywhere on the joint because you've got surface area to burn.
Makes sense if you are doing enough of them. I've nailed together 1/4" thick plywood before without any problems, though.
I believe that is why so many old cigar boxes are made this way. Obviously they were batching things together, and may even have had special equipment to really speed up the cutting. But this was all in the service of making a thinner, lighter, cheaper box. Also, metal was, and still is, a lot more expensive then glue.
Time is money. Quality is forever. Time and quality is a happy customer. Complex joints when not needed is eye candy. All things have a purpose. Practical craftsmanship may include any or all of these depending on the desire of who is paying for the product. It is awesome to me how you constantly reaffirm your practical philosophy and the understandable method of its communication. Stay the course John, as I, if no one else, need you as a companion.
Gerry Smith
Houston Texas
Thanks for taking the time to answer the pin alignment question!
Totally agree, I "over build" my projects. I need to learn how to build a project for its purpose. For example a simple end table doesn't need to be able to hold a ton of weight. Two thumbs up!
Good lesson John, thanks for sharing. Ist's a good idea to make a brake every now and then, and think about what you are realy doing and why. Rgds from Germany, Robert
The lack of pocket-hole joints in this video is as depressing as the lack of audible or mattresses promotions.
lmfao, now THAT is funny!
I love your logic here. I'm very much in agreement. Sometimes you have to keep it simple and it works just as well.
Wise words, well spoken and showing the experience and (unfortunately uncommon) common sense from your years in the trade. Yes, pretty joints are nice to look at but are they necessary? Just because you can make dovetails etc doesn’t mean you need to. Your examples are spot on!
Well said. I do this all the time to fit the need at hand. I think a lot of joinery is more for looks.
Almost all of my shop furniture is plywood held together with 18ga brads and glue. Some of it is 20years old now and most of it has seen some heavy use. Even things like my shop stands and tables are plywood held together like that at 90* angles making longer members like legs. I have a few cases where it was something heavier and might have gotten a full lumber frame and then it got screws and glue. Nothing has fallen apart or had to be repaired/reinforced in any way with one notable exception, the carcass of a shop filtration unit that has one joint pulling apart (I've yet to pull it apart and figure out why right now it has one joint that has about a 1/32" gap in it and I might just squeeze some glue in it and drive a couple of screws in it and leave it.
When I build important/nice things I'll usually use better "joinery," like when I built my daughter a doll bed that she insisted was "like real furniture" it got all dowel joints, but it also got stain covered in clear poly, a custom mattress, and sheets...
You build to serve the function of what you're building. Occasionally you might overbuild (either in quality or strength), but that would be to test/practice something for a future project. If you build everything to the best quality you can you'll never get to your real projects, unless you're one of those people that just builds shop projects and nothing else.
As always another excellent video. When companies make tools, they do so for the masses and therefore are not perfect for everyone. In understanding this, I can see why you have made it even better. The fact that the company took exception is their loss. Maybe they could have learned from what you did and incorporated it in later production models so that their customers would benefit. Enough for my rant, as always John, your common sense approach is something that we can all learn from, I know that I tend to overbuild and you video has given me some food for thought.
Agree 100% my dad built things 4-5 decades ago that are used daily , & where simple joints with glue n fine nails.
Still holding up.
I was once a traditional joinery purist, and when appropriate will still use traditional joinery, but to use an example, sometimes nothing beats a threaded rod - and realistically, if they had had threaded rod 150 years ago, they would have used it.
I agree John. I believe some build a certain way cause they may feel like a hack if they don’t vs something that is appropriate for the task that’s needed. I myself and probably like most only have so much time and many things to get done.
John, you are a good teacher, keep this kind of videos. Hope the get enough views.
Shop projects are about getting shit done. Thank you for your time you invest in this. I really like your balance of fine and creative woodworking and just getting shit done. I don't have time for planning and dovetails except I maybe build something for my mom for a present. 95% I built stuff for my house on the weekends and the evenings. Little boxes and shelves. I did study mechanical engineering and like overengineered furniture or jigs like Matthias has very much, but those almost never pay for the time I invest in them. I need stuff done and very often your way is the way to go. Keep up the good work! Love your channel. I like Matthias' pushsticks better, though. :-P (might be a german thing)
Another great video. Thanks John
Telling it like it is my admiration
Man I been putting off replacing my kitchen drawers because I am afraid of the joints. glueing together butt joints I can do. I must try it. thanks for the video. you would laugh if you saw my kitchen drawers they are in such need of repair.
great video and break-down, john! appreciate it. (can't wait for your permanent-temporary table saw vids). :)
I've on occasion been guilty of over thinking things. I'm now a firm believer in Simplicity.
Started explaining the pantorouter to get into the joints. Nice move!
What you said at the very end of the video is the key, are you a production carpenter or a hobbist, when I am at work I am a production carpenter, but when I get home in my shop I like to have fun with the journey leave all the hurry hurry back at the jobsite, I enjoy taking the long way round on my home projects. and besides you do have the better boxjoint fixture use it as much as possible to sell your plans.
Jack B. Nimble, It also allows you to perfect your woodworking skills by trying more advanced woodworking skills on your home projects.
In the software business we like to say "The simplest thing that could possibly work"
Function....all about function. These days my machined dovetails are very few..Hand cut dovetails on drawers rarely have more than two joints because that's all is needed. In the end when the function is meet I feel it's good to go..My creation,my satisfaction..
American architect Louis Sullivan expressed that sentiment best; "form, as ever, follows function".
you could make a drawer to fit inside for all your hardware for it
Perfection is the enemy of good enough.
"Don't let better be the enemy of best"
You talk about the addition of a cleat for added strength. Unless I'm mistaken, that cleat would be solid wood, and subject to expansion/contraction would it not?
Are you looking for an answer, or just trying to make what you think is an astute observation?
Does the tracing pin need to be lined up with the router bit? Because you are tracing, I don't think it matters. Offsets don't affect the pattern produced by the router bit. So it seems to me that the only critical alignment is the router bit with the work piece.
Not much point making accurate reference points on the table and template if the pin and cutter don't line up.
True, John. I was thinking that one could position the pin on the template and then just position the cutter with the workpiece accordingly. Am I missing something?
It occurred to me that this setup could be viewed as a reconfiguration of a pin router. Now I am wondering what other reconfigurations might be useful, like an offset version for a router fixed in a table. The pin does not have to be centered over the router bit and so the pin arm does not need to be so long. I suppose setup would not be as simple (once the pin is properly centered) in general, but maybe there are cases where it's worth it?
greetings to your focus master.
My trade is software development. I follow the mantra 'Simplest thing that works, but no simpler' for the same reason. Over engineering is a deadly curse in software development. As is oversimplification.
Matt Cremona hand cut dovetailed every drawer in his High Boy project...lord knows what he'd have to charge for all that time if it were a sale piece
I'd be the first one to use glue and brad nails wherever possible, but not for Cremona's High Boy where form and appearance are more important than function
Do we really know that for sure? For all we know, he could have a Leigh jig or pantorouter hiding somewhere when the camera stops ;)
@@amiddled I wonder that. His stuff seems to go together pretty quick. I wouldn't doubt if he has a workshop of elves doing it all while he takes frequent cat naps and soaks after tossing around 12ft wide oak logs one handed.
Well here is my 2 cents, first let me say that i have been watching you, jay, and matthias for a long time now. There is always a easy and short way to make something, u just happen to take that route u make a lot of shop stuff, and of course u dont need fancy joinery to toss some screws in. But i dont think most people put them into most projects for strength, more so for looks. And well u use construction plywood for most everything. Jay likes to build a lot of furniture/ things made out of more expensive wood, and why not put fancy joints in those projects. Matthias one of my favs, loves the technical aspect of things and gets his joy out of that. At the end of the day build things that are fun to u and the way that best suits that. It is nice having different people to watch and there different approaches to everything, and that is what helps in creativity and for u guys i guess in some sense a bit of competitiveness which is always good. I know opinions are like assholes, but if u like what u are doing just do it.
I like pocket screws. Simple, fast and secure.
Its not sloppy, its clever and actual. For commission pieces not necessarily the best, except if its color lacquered
Great point John
Smart and efficient.
John --- like you I build to what I need and no more unless for looks --I am a bad boy :)
dovetail splines?
you are 100% correct!!
Thanks for the video.
Just a quick question:
If UA-cam drop a 120s add before your video, do you get more then if they drop a 6s video?
Full Ack. Good engineering always means optimise/minimise time&materials to get something done, and find (new) ways around obstacles. If you have unlimited resources, you don't need engineering.
Couldn’t agree more with this philosophy
I was watching some of your safety videos and yes it looks super sketch from the view of the camera but when you're actually at the table saw or grinder you know where your fingers are and you have more view angles. + he has _experience_
Spot on as always!
Exactly right sir.
With all the advancements with wood glue joinery isn't as necessary as it once was. my experience the wood always fails before the glue.
Well put dude.
Good talk
Well said sir
I build it v woodgers pantorouter chalange I would pay to see that bring it on gentleman luv yu work cheers.
Well said!
YT is full of all sorts of DIY/Maker/woodworkers with different perspectives, I don't understand why commenters have trouble reconciling that different project have different measures of success. I've always thought that you provided a great perspective on how to setup a shop for home projects with an eye for finding ways to maximize quality while respecting the value of your own time (i.e. exactly what I'd hope to accomplish by choosing to DIY something around my own house). It's a completely different perspective, or reason for being in the shop, than say Wood by Wright, whose purpose is to teach traditional hand tool woodworking as its own end. I wouldn't comment on his channel "you should have just used a [powertool]" the same way I wouldn't comment "dovetail drawers are stronger" on your channel. Both completely ignore the perspective of the channel.
The joy of joinery
100% agree!
John, you just said that the manufacturer of the metal pantorouter gave you flak for making modifications to your personal machine. That offends me, irritates me and quite frankly pisses me off! As you know, and probably most of your subscribers know, the pantorouter was conceived, invented and built by Matthias Wandell.
Kuldeep Singh was impressed enough with Matthias's creation that he took Mathias's design and created a metal version of it to sell for profit. He modified Mathias's design and now has the audacity to give you flak for modifying his design changes to Matthias's work. Isn't that exactly what he did to Matthias's original design?
I have supported Matthias by purchasing plans from him and I will continue to do so but I will not support anyone who tries to strong arm someone for making modifications to their personal property. What makes UA-cam so great is the sharing of ideas and the continued development of, and improvement to, those shared ideas. Because Kuldeep Singh took an idea from UA-cam and turned that idea into a commercial venture he now wants to stifle any further development by creative UA-camrs. I find that to be OFFENSIVE!
I have been considering purchasing the metal version until just this moment. I will no longer consider doing business with Kuldeep Singh or anyone who represents the product he sells. Anyone can purchase the plans from Matthias Wandel and make either a wood version or a metal version for far less money than it would cost to purchase the metal version today.
You can buy the plans here from Matthias Wandell, the original inventor:
woodgears.ca/pantorouter/plans
You can see all of Matthias's UA-cam videos here: ua-cam.com/users/Matthiaswandel
It wasn't Kuldeep that said anything, it was Woodcraft. Maybe I misspoke when I said "manufacturer", since I just assumed that Woodcraft was making them now. Maybe they are just marketing them.
John, thanks for the clarification but it doesn't change my opinion. If Woodcraft is now marketing the pantorouter, I find it offensive that they feel they have the right to stifle anyone from modifying their own personal property and demonstrating those modifications on UA-cam!
Woodcraft made a MAJOR mistake by trying to stifle american ingenuity and creativity for its own commercialism.
Following Woodcraft's philosophy they shared with you, it would be wrong for anyone to ever try to improve or simply make personal modifications to commercial tools. As an example, there are many jointers and planers that are sold with traditional two knife or three knife cutters but someone decided they could improve those tools by creating Helix cutterheads. The Helix cutterhead is a substantial improvement and I for one am very happy that someone designed, developed and markets this cutterhead. Stifling innovation is never good for anyone! Do you think the creation of the Helix cutterhead has hurt the sales of jointers and planers? I don't think so. In fact, if anything the creation of the Helix cutterhead has improved the sale of jointers and planers because it improves the overall quality of cut.
By you creating and demonstrating what you consider a better solution to a perceived problem could very well lead to a design change in the pantorouter that benefits everyone. But, if we followed Woodcraft's philosophy, the world could miss out on possible improvements to existing products.
This country was founded on ingenuity and innovation and I hope that Woodcraft gives serious consideration as to how they choose to interact with the woodworking community and the Maker community. The Maker community is burgeoning and is creating many new innovations that has the potential to benefit everyone and I support that concept of growth and development and I absolutely abhor heavy handed tactics.
I am an avid consumer of UA-cam ideas and innovation and consider the free expression of ideas to be fundamental to the growth of innovation and ingenuity!
The other thing I find so interesting about this is that in one of the videos from Matthias he stated that he gave you the pantorouter that you own and modified. In other videos, Matthias also stated that Kuldeep Singh has sent him metal pantorouters to try out. It appears that the pantorouter you have most likely came from Kuldeep Singh and not from Woodcraft. It would be interesting to know if that is true.
Woodcraft just lost a customer, me! I can purchase anything Woodcraft sells from other outlets such as Rockler, Amazon, Peachtree Woodworking, Highland Woodworking, Lee Valley, Sommerfeld Tools, Infinity Tools, Axminster Tools in England, and many, many, other resellers of woodworking tools and materials.
I have been a Woodcraft customer and have purchased tools from Woodcraft in the past, including this year, but no more! With the internet capability of today, I have purchased tools from England, Germany, Canada and many online, and brick and mortar retailers in the U.S. Not doing business with Woodcraft won't hurt me at all!
In my opinion, whoever reached out to you from Woodcraft and gave you flak should be fired!
I stand by and repeat my previous statement that I will no longer consider doing business with Kuldeep Singh or anyone who represents the product he sells. Anyone can purchase the plans from Matthias Wandel and make either a wood version or a metal version for far less money than it would cost to purchase the metal version today.
You can buy the plans from Matthias Wandell, the original inventor at:
woodgears.ca/pantorouter/plans
You can see all of Matthias's UA-cam videos here:
ua-cam.com/users/Matthiaswandel
I'm surprised that I have yet to see anyone make drawers the way I do now: I use 1/2" plywood all around, glue and brad nail everything together, then come back and drill holes through the mating surfaces and glue dowels into them and cut the dowels flush. It's faster than biscuits even since there's no marking required, and it's gotta be stronger too. I don't see much value in dovetailed drawers other than bragging rights.
Using dowels like that is very common.
I Build It Are there reasons not to build drawers with dowels? I hope not, but I'd like to know.
I just use pocket holes. *grabs popcorn*
You don't have to be the best, you don't have to be good, you just have to be first.
You don't need a point to be obtuse
Good, Fast, Cheep pick any two.
Very good philosophy! All these people out there spending money on plastic bins could be making much stronger pieces for their shops! That they would have for many years. It just seems like it's become such a disposable era. They will find every year that they're going to have to replace those plastic boxes! And every year they put out the money for it. I just don't understand it.
You said my name, everybody drink :)
Wait! What? You can't modify a pantorouter! Oh, never mind, wrong channel.... continue please.
Good for you John, those P guys are AH anyway
damn right
They should ask you for your patent
Am I colour blind??? I thought I was on the Scrap bin chn LOL. My philosophy, close enough is good enough, BTW IMHO, you need a Festool Domino... Please don't ban me, I'm only kidding
I wouldn't mind having one and it's something that I'd probably use. Maybe I should make something similar (and yes, before anyone feels the need to point it out, I know that others have built domino machines)
Good S***. Thanks.
Who you talking to John? %99 of us feel the same way. Ignore the elite.
👍👊
Who ever invented the panto router should have came up with this when they made it. take them to school John!
In case you are unaware, Wandel made it, actually several versions now.
No, wandel had his reasons why he designed it the way he did. This is just John taking a stab at Matthias because that's just what they do for fun.
"panto" router? Look out he's making a tenon behind you! Oh no he isn't! Oh yes he is!
Hundreds of craftspeople have a different opinion based on a our experience with the PantoRouter. If it's faster, easier, more accurate and safer to use the PantoRouter, then it's the right tool for the job. If it takes less time to build with mortise and tenon than other joinery, why not? And, if it's more fun to use a very clever tool that creates no dust, and makes dovetails, box joints and even compound angles easily approachable for the hobbyist or professional, then I'm going to use the PantoRouter every time.
No doubt about it, if all you build is shop fixtures and the like, there's no need for anything but butt joints, glue and screws. If you want to improve your craft, and want to make beautiful furniture pieces that will last for generations, the PantoRouter's the tool for you.
🤙🏼
Nonsense. If its worth doing its worth overdoing. If its not over engineered and overbuilt it's CRAP! LOL