Tbh, not only music students have problems with mental health, if you're pushing yourself way too hard it's likely what's gonna happen, same with their physical statement
This is why I am very mindful of it and why I am extremely careful as a lifelong pianist. The reason why I wanted to go to conservatory was to be classically trained and so I could feel more in control of my piano playing and so I could feel like I can play anything and be the best I can be. I'm not a super perfectionist but sometimes I am. Being in a conservatory is not for everyone. I am currently mentally preparing myself for it also, having to practice 6-8 hours a day. If I get injured, so be it. Music is the one thing that keeps me alive mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. I'm not giving up music even if it kills me.
I have been extremely severely injured after overusing my body from piano practicing heavily, teaching piano, working on the computer, driving and travelling. I overloaded myself with so many things at the same time thinking I was invincible. After participating in a music festival, unbearable muscle contractions started in my neck and arms. As the years passed, my back started to hurt and then paraesthesia in my feet. My recovery was extremely slow and painful. I couldn't believe I could play the piano again. If I wasn't a classical ballet dancer in my youth as a hobby, I don’t think I could have known how to heal myself. Nobody helped me. I was left all alone to deal with tremendous amounts of pain. It was so awful. I visited so many doctors, took all kinds of medication (muscerol, coltramyl, arcoxia, magnesium, arnica, arthriflex..), had a vitamin D deficiency. Till now, I still haven't fully healed myself but believe firmly that I will soon. From August 2010 till now December 2021, 11 years have passed while my life was on hold. It was a nightmare....
if you are having all those problems I think you arent practicing slowly enough. get a metronome and play slow enough you can count each measure in your head
@@Strafola Thank you for the advice. It surely is very beneficial to play slowly with metronome. The lesson from all what I have gone through is mainly to listen to my body while practicing, to take multiple rests every 20 minutes or when I start to feel tightness, to drink water and learn to say no. Above all the programme I was preparing at the time, I had to memorize one movement of a piano concerto to play with orchestra in a music festival. One month before my trip, they have completely changed the concerto and I had to work on a new movement. It was exhausting. I should have said no because my body needed rest and I couldn't go on anymore. But I didn’t. Too much stress is not good at all. I’ve learned that the hard way...
@@leexu8806 Playing the piano is magical. Just be careful not to injure yourself from overpracticing or from practicing wrong. Be patient, humble, don't compare yourself to others and go at your own pace. Good luck to all of us!
@@stella_studio I practice until I sorta lose consciousness of what am actually doing. My finger moves on its own while I sorta dose off at that point it’s just my parents always COMPARES me with other highly skilled pianist and it’s starting to effect my mental health
The French harpsichords had 6 1/4 inch octave spans. Some German Mietke, (JS Bach purchased one for the Coethen Court) Fleischer, and Zell in Hamburg used this span others used 6 5/8 Hass in Hamburg and the Ruckers earlier. French Pianos had narrower spans, in Chopin etudes those wide stretches not as wide as modern 6 1/2 spans which one UA-cam piano tutor says are possible on the piano at tempo “hard but not impossible” but I do not have time to measure if he’s really playing in single beat hypothesis.
@@rogerjamesmusic There's a combination Clavichord and writing desk (has lower drawer and to left of keyboard this a hole to accomadate an ink bottle) attributed to "the school of Johann Heinrich Graebner" which if the Metropolitian museum of art website measurements are correct has a 4.85 in compass to the octave! The keyboard is C to e''' (4 octaves +) must be a composers traveling clavichord...lengtth is 36-7/8 in. The Cristofori Fortepiano 1720's span is 6 1/2 inches. The elaborate Michele Todini Italian Harpsichord span is 6. 41 inches. For those who are metric oriented, I have to get to an appointment: Harpsichord Pisaurensis (1533) = 169mm Ruckers = 167mm (Hass Harpsichords are the same according to Neupert) Pratensis (1612) = 166mm J. Mayer (1619) = 168mm Giusti (1676) = 174mm Italian (1695) = 163mm Berllot (1742)= 157.33 mm France Jean Goermans (1754) = 159.3 mm France Kirkman (1767) = 162mm Graebner (1774) = 156mm Clavichord, Schmahl (1794) = 158mm Pianos: Cristofori (1726) = 164mm Pohlman (square, 1770) = 178mm Stein (1780s) = 156, 158, 160mm Schiedmeyer (1780) = 156mm Schiedmeyer (1785) = 180mm (Schiedmeyer made a Clavichord from a Square Piano profile 1796 and an earlier conventional one 1789, octave span 6 1/8 inch according to Hubbad) Longman & Broderip (square, 1790) = 169mm Schantz (1790, 1805) = 160mm Schmid (1794) = 158mm Clementi (1805) = 163mm Erard (Beethoven's piano, 1803) = 162mm Walter (1795) = 159mm Walter (1803) = 153mm Walter (1815) = 160mm Streicher (1816) = 158mm Kirckman (1820) = 162mm Broadwood (Beethoven's piano, 1817) = 166mm Broadwood (1819) = 164mm Boehm (6 oct) = 158mm Fritz (c1825 in workshop of Paul Poletti) = 167mm Graf (1826, similar to Beethoven's Graf) = 161mm J.B. Streicher (1841) = 158mm Pleyel (1852) ) = 164mm, However, one pianists claims that Chopin's 1839 Pleyel's octave compass was the same as the stretch of a Seventh on the modern piano... Steinway (Hamburg, 1937, modern range) = 165mm Bluethner (modern range) = 165mm
@@Renshen1957 The reason for the narrower keys on the French instruments I was told was due to the ravelment. The instruments kept the same dimensions and fancy casework, but additional notes were squeezed in which caused the keyboards to become narrower. I also read somewhere that some Italian instruments had quite wide keys, either as wide as a modern key or a bit wider.
@@Renshen1957 I played the Schiedmeyer (1785). The keyboard felt "normal" and the same as my own clavichord. The instrument sounded quite nice too and I wanted to take it home, but I couldn't because it's housed at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. 🙂
Corporate mentality is what leads to such problems. It is sad, but true. Not only the tempi - those are rather a consequence. And what has it to do with soul and heart, like it should be? The answer is... You know.
So students at the conservatory/university are 18 year old. But they are playing the piano for 10 years non-stop. No wonder they have physical injuries. Same for kids who play football in a club starting at age 8, or gymnasts. Some percentage of them have bad knees and other joints before they are 25.
Wim, to be honest, I'm not sure all these problems Nahre Sol describes are related to fast tempo... I mean... isn't it mainly the sad truth of our times? Young people outside the conservatories are increasingly depressive as well. It also has to do with young people feeling pressure of social media, of the idea that you 'make' your own success and need to be on top of your game all the time. I don't really see the link to tempo, playing fast, or composers intentions... In other words, I don;t think these problems will disappear when everybody would play at whole beat... just my 2 cents!
Of course reduction in tempo won't solve all health and mental health related problems. It is one aspect of many, to be critical about. However, as empirical data shows blantantly, pianists - musicians in general - are disproportionately affected by risk of injuries and other medical and psychological issues connected to their musical activities. Imo it's necessary to question and analyse these problems specifically (!) in the context of the subject of playing music, instead of relativising and reducing it by saying "but everybody is depressive nowadays and it's just general perfomance pressure in our society". Even if it is true and surely a factor to consider; that alone takes away the focus, to productively discuss and effectively solve these grievances
@@tylerdurden2577 Certainly true, and playing Chopin competition level fast is certainly something that can cause great problems mentally and physically for someone who is aiming for that and isn't fit to do so. Especially with bad or abusive teachers. A great musician doesn't necessarily make a great teacher, I have experienced that as well! I was more responding to Wim who seems to imply that it all stems from reading the metronome differently, which he of course believed has happened in the ratio 1 to 2 - 1 tick instead of 2. But I'm not sure if I see that connection...! But you are right, this is a very multi leveled problem that needs to be looked at in classical music and piano practice, but it also goes far beyond classical music I think.
Nothing is new that students at Julliard or others music conservatories in the world get injuries and mental problems. I have heard from one of my teachers who studied with Adele Marcus that people got physical and mental problems due to pressure that they had to learn pieces in one week. Louder, Faster and no wrong notes!!!!! 😬😬😬 It was a very long time ago and it still happens today and will be happened in the future. Sometimes I felt that time when I studied at one of the universities of music that it was not music-making anymore. It was some kind of sport and comparing with each other what kind of difficult pieces they were playing and that's all. At that time I began to hate to go to the lessons because it was not the music that I dreamt of before getting into the class.
trigger finger - A condition in which a finger gets stuck in a bent position and then snaps straight. Trigger finger occurs when the tendon in the affected finger becomes inflamed. Those most at risk include women, people with diabetes or arthritis, and people whose regular activities strain their hands. Symptoms include stiffness, a popping or clicking sensation, and tenderness in the affected finger. Triggering is usually worse in the morning. Treatment includes splinting, medications, and surgery.
It's very rare to find a pianist who actually knows how to play piano. By this I mean, if you asked them this they would be incapable of a coherent explanation. I'm talking graduate level pianists. This is why students play with finger only technique and don't comprehend that even Bach had forearm up and down movement. Because nobody analyzes their muscle movements and go "oh I do all these things and not just this one thing." i know a pianist who was injured. I also know a student who was forced to take football and he broke his finger. Absolutely nutty institution. This is one of Wims best criticisms of the university and conservatory.
If either of my late parents were still alive, they would confirm that in the summer vacation time period I would practice or play 8 hours a day, they became surprised that I had a girlfriend, (let alone notice the opposite sex) and about 4 hours per day during school. I did break for lunch (my father came home for his lunch hour) and dinner, sometimes I would play after dinner for longer unless something was on the TV the family wanted to watch (or a TOS Star Trek re-run). However, I would not use the flat finger technique that is taught by many piano teachers. I used Christian Griepenkerl's description of what W F Bach had taught J. N. Forkel (the J S Bach clavichord method). The hand is designed to grasp, the fingers aren't levels. I never experienced any pain, however, I never went to the bottom of the key-dip, I depressed the key only until the sound issued, and held my hand above keys, with only the weight of the hand supported by the finger which depressed the key. That being said, among pianists: focal dystonia is a neurological disorder and is a neurological disorder common among concert pianists. Some forms of paralysis have been treated by Botox injections. String players also receive playing related injuries. Among other diseases (besides those I private message Wim about musculoskeletal complaints and disorders (MCD) and “playing-related musculoskeletal disorders” (PRMD)) include Alien Hand Syndrome "in an unusual case of posterior AHS of the dominant hand in a professional pianist with corticobasal syndrome (CBS). The patient showed uncontrolled levitation with the right arm while playing the piano and perceived as if her hand had a “mind of its own” which prevented her from playing. MRI-scans show asymmetric brain atrophy, mainly involving left post-central regions and SPECT-Tc99m-ECD patterns of hypometabolism over the left parietal-occipital cortices. DT-MRI revealed extensive damage which comprised left fronto-temporal cortex and extends into the ipsilateral parietal cortex causing a disruption of corpus callosum (CC) projections from the rostrum to the splenium. Our case illustrates that posterior AHS may occur in the dominant hemisphere due to widespread damage, which exceed parietal cortex. The parietal lobe has been recognized as a multimodal association region that gets input from several networks and organizes motor output. We suggest that the disturbance to this pathway could result in disruption of motor output and associate an abnormal motor control and anomalous self-body perception." "Trigger finger," a condition in which one of your fingers gets stuck in a bent position. Your finger may bend or straighten with a snap - like a trigger being pulled and released, or sometimes lock in the position. People whose work require repetitive gripping actions are at higher risk of developing trigger finger. The condition is also more common in women and in anyone with diabetes. Also known as stenosing tenosynovitis occurs when inflammation narrows the space within the sheath that surrounds the tendon in the affected finger. If trigger finger is severe, your finger may become locked in a bent position. People whose work or hobbies require repetitive gripping actions are at higher risk of developing trigger finger. The condition is also more common in women and in anyone with diabetes. Another disease Carpal tunnel syndrome is caused by pressure on the median nerve. The carpal tunnel is a narrow passageway surrounded by bones and ligaments on the palm side of your hand. The symptoms can include numbness, tingling and weakness in the hand and arm. Repetitive motion can cause the inflammation which if continues can lead to nerve damage and worsening symptoms. To prevent permanent damage, surgery will take pressure off the median nerve, and may be recommended for some patients. But these conditions are a symptom of a more insidious disease, the misdirection and extreme pressure piled onto up and coming musicians aspiring to become professionals. (If you didn't play the piano from age 3-4, become a prodigy, passed grade levels with rapidity, entered competitions and won, etc. forget having a career as a musician). Solo professional musicians are commodity, to be sold similar to a stock or merchandise, and their only inventory are the concert performances they appear in, and for those who made it a recording contract. Keyboard players have it harder in this aspect, very few Symphony Orchestras have full time pianists, the day of the continuo harpsichordist has passed; even today, I see more Lute Players or Baroque Guitar players and "continuo organs' (Positive Organs) in Hip Chamber Ensembles, ironically there's a 5th Brandenburg Concerto on UA-cam with a guitarist strumming away, but there wasn't a Lutenist/Guitarist on the payroll at the Coethen Court. Two Viola da Gamba Players, one the father of a Viola Gamba player who would team up and start concerts in London with J C Bach. Some name pianists attempted to hide multiple sclerosis, the onset of Parkinson's disease, and other health concerns. Glenn Gould was open about his eccentricities (he listed quotes on the back of his Beethoven/Liszt Piano transcription recording of the 5th Symphony; he kept odd hours, told people to cover their mouths when coughing or sneezing when riding on a public transport (I no longer have the album), wearing a full winter coat in Spring, Summer, and Fall in warm weather, but most unusually, giving up public concert performances, although he made many a radio and TV broadcast) that might lead one to presume he had some form of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). The most commonly investigated disorder studied among musician's is "stage fright" (which one UA-cam video of Martha Argerich with her daughter backstage in a dressing room vividly demonstrated). Emmanuel Ax referenced it in another video on UA-cam. And a few pianists gave up concert careers for teaching because of it. These individuals with talent to burn are human, too. (Yes, I had stage fright, too, until I performed enough to get callouses on my nerves, my trick was to convince myself I didn't care about my performance." My major concern was how to get from my day job on Sunday after shooing people out of a store to drive to the church on time to play a 5:30 Mass. In the Broken Musician, The Taboo of Injury and Disability in Music, Heather O'Donnell writes, "Performing musicians and the communities (my comment and addition, read "culture", end comment) that surround them (e.g. educational institutions, managers, and audiences) tend to reject the latter interpretation of disability (disability can be affirmatively accepted), even embraced, as an indispensable part of personal identity., instead vacillating between the pre-enlightenment concept of affliction (albeit without ascribing divine involvement (context God's punishment) and the 19th century model of normalcy, you were committed, even suffering for your art.. In this hybrid view, (embracing the disability) musicians’ disabilities are often viewed as a sign of weakness or a lack of commitment to their art. Musicians cycle through a large number of medical, psychological, and alternative (even esoteric) solutions for removing the impediment of the disability. The idea of embracing a disability as a source of personal (and hence musical) identity would be laughable to many musicians (if the disability has no affect on the musical ability, such as Itzhak Perlman, who although accepted for overcoming childhood polio, sometimes is still treated as a second class citizen, my addition as an exception), as this would involve violating a set of musical standards which are increasingly codified and competitive in the modern world, in which a great emphasis is placed on an individual’s market value.
As one person with Parkinson's, I am in constant pain and deal with secondary dystonia that causes my hands to tighten up so much I have cut and bruised the palms of my hands due to my fingernails and fingers digging in deeply and tightly. My feet turn in with my small toes turning inward while the big toes stand upward. There is no escape until the Dopamine replacement kicks in and then everything settles down. The PD also has slowed me down in other ways which frustrates me to no end on bad days, meaning I have some days when I can play as I used to and others that truly suck. I have learned to walk away rather than frustrate myself, otherwise, I would be in the bat house now! My initial diagnosis was focal dystonia because This was during our first 10 minutes together where he ran some quick tests, moved my limbs, etc. When asked about activities I told the neurologist I played the piano for 1 hour per day and maybe 4 hours on the weekend, and he said that did it. WHAT? 1 hour per day, if I was lucky on some days, did that? He then said the only treatment is Botox. Our conversation continued, as my throat tightened up from holding back my tears as he smirked at me and said, "Come to my Botox clinic, and we can start treatments". His lack of empathy and smug answer led me to ask him for more tests. He reluctantly did, which showed other pyramidal as well as extra-pyramidal anomalies, but he insisted it was focal dystonia, and being one to see something amiss, I pushed back. I pushed and he put me on the Carbidopa/Levodopa (Sinemet) and it worked 100% the first time. There was something else going on here. A coworker had noticed changes in my gait, lack of arm swing, and more rigidity in my movements, and there were improvements there as well. My coworker's father had PD at the time, so she was aware of the symptoms. After the C/L, I was able to play the piano again and I have done so ever since. But even still, he insisted it was focal dystonia, however, and after a messed-up report to my primary care doctor, I sought a second opinion, which proved everything to be something else. The first doctor's reasoning for not diagnosing PD is I wasn't old enough! I recently heard he's no longer practicing medicine, and I wonder how many other lives he ruined. That misdiagnosis of Focal Dystonia sent me into a deep depression. I was nearly suicidal from it, gave up everything, and was ready to jump of the nearby bridge. I'm not kidding, I was seriously down deep in that black abyss. I'm glad I was smart enough to realize this guy was a schmuck and my PCP sent me to a different neurologist whom I've seen since then. If I were a professional pianist, I would have been out of business today. It's a good thing I didn't follow my passion fully, although I did attempt when I was 48 years old. Due to the PD, I am now "retired" and enjoying my music at my time and with my energy levels, but to do this at the level expected today for a professional would have been impossible. The thing is, my teachers, except for one, never pushed me beyond my means. They were all about the music and not just the notes and fastest tempi. My allegros were always quick, prestos fast, and slower tempos slow. My technique is and was always accurate and I played to the bottom of the keys, but with a firm curved technique that varies not only by the music, but also by the style with a more open hand for later music, and a more curved one for early music. My lessons always included technique, ala scales, Hanon, Schmitt, Czerny, but not a lot of it. I would put in no more than 20 minutes per day at any of it and vary what I worked on so not to develop bad habits. Initially my hands were stiff, thanks to my early teacher's training, but later on I developed a relaxed hand but kept the curved fingers and solid technique. With that technique, I can play crisp and clear both loudly and softly as well as lightly without reaching for the una corda pedal as a crutch.
@@Clavichordist My father had an opposite experience, he had experienced what was thought to be a stroke which resolved itself somewhat (but not completely until after 24 hours), which affected his balance. Mom went to the best Neurologist in Tucson, AZ for an examination. The Doctor's test for Parkinson's Disease was to push over backwards to the floor of the examination room (my father, a WW II and Korean War Veteran, came up swinging!). My mom called me as to the diagnosis of PD, to which I asked, did he examine my father's shoes, run a battery of (I'll spare the list) neurological tests, etc. Mom said, no, after shoving, he put him on Sinemet. I said (according to the Physician's Desk Reference), Merk Prescriber, and other medical infomration Carbidopa isn't initially recommended for PD, and I really recommended she and Dad get a 2nd opinion, but don't mention the first Physicians name. At the second opinion doctor, when asked if Dad had seen another doctor, Mom name dropped the first doctor. The 2nd MD said he had been his teacher in Neurology. I found out when mom called back, but he performed a thorough examination, and didn't order further tests, etc., and immediately told both them, stop the the medication, "Your husband doesn't have PD, this was from a Transiant ischemic Attack (TIA, my father had one previously in the UK, 1993, for the one year early 50th anniversary celebration of the D-Day landings (as the thought was too many veterans might not live another year for the big official 50th). The first doctor was very lucky my mom intervened, as my father still could destroy gym machines with his strength (breaking restraining straps on his death bed two years later, to keep him from pulling out IV's in his sleep) and if the punch had connected, as my late former brother in law described his first impression of his future father in law as, "There's a man who could kill you with one blow." Thank you for sharing your teachers. My first teacher, from beginner to when I became accomplished in technique, after scales, teaching the "1 and 2 and..." method of counting plus an introduction to Hanon (still have the book, all I practiced was the drills for fingers 4 and 5), believed in two things never restrict a student from playing any piece, exposed me to a variety of music (she really wanted me to learn Czerny's "Butterfly Etude," I wasn't in to Czerny), she also believed one learned more actual music than excercises, and from hearing Wendy (nee Walter) Carlos, my introduction to the Inventions and WTC pt 1 and Scarlatti Sonontas, she firmly believed she had accomplished her goal as a teacher or any teacher, which is this, give the student the critical thinking skills and problem solving skills to find the answers for themselves. I may have had teachers in later in college (for the organ), but Mrs. Millicent Reese was my first and only teacher (unless you count all the subsequent authors I read on orchestrations (Cecile Forsythe and Rimsky-Korsakov are sufficient, Piston's book isn't worth the paper it's printed on for string technique (Forsythe is the best) or how to use strings (RK), Prout and McHose on contrapuntal technicque (Fugues, Double Counterpoint based primarily on J S Bach) Harmony (McHose superior from adapting J S Bach to Rameau, and Rameau who wrote about his music, Harmonie Lehrer by Arnold Schoenberg is superior Rameau, with no references at all to Serien composition). I wasn't interested in just playing the notes, I wanted to know what made the masters "tick", why they wrote they way the did, or as Beethoven said of Bach, "One doesn't just play Bach one studies Bach. And since my love of the music of the 17th to 18th century, that went into historical informed performance, which is one reason, I became interested in AuthenticSound. I respect and understand many of Wim's choices, although I may have a different take (I don't want to say disagree, more like I hold a different opinion-such as J S Bach had Werckmeister's earlier book in his list book, than the 1707 postumous publication, the book which mentions "Well Tempered" and the description of C P E Bach on tuning...
@@jimclark7249 UA-cam has a number of videos by piano Technician (s) who have the works of Chopin in different temperaments vs. true equal temperament for comparison. They maintain that “true” ET didn’t exist until the 20th century and what was called ET was a circulating approximation in essence a variant of well tempered tunings. My ears and “heart” are inclined to agree with this and my mind likewise. Leo Galileo, lutenist and father of the much more famous inventor of the first practical telescope, had devised something equivalent to ET, although the Chinese had developed the concept many hundreds of years before. The argument put forth by the Videos was there wasn’t a way to actually measure the beats in ET accurately until the first decade of the 20th Century, and that the human ear/brain cannot distinguish between what a test instrument can verify as ET and being off but still sounds beat less. That being said there’s no evidence that 19fh c. Tuners or musicians had a monochord or used said. There’s evidence in literature that mean tone tuning existed in churches in smaller villages and rural areas into the middle of the 19th c. I have had some disagreements on UA-cam and Quara on Vallotti and Young tunings with a harpsichordist or two and playing J S Bach. I pointed out that Tartini never fully described this tuning outside of praising it Vallotti being a religious didn’t travel, and Vallotti’s 2nd through 4th books weren’t published from his manuscript until the 1950. Vallotti 1st book wasn’t published until 1779. And then there’s the simple fact that what’s called Vallotti and isn’t what the author described originally put forth in 1779. Young’s Temperament doesn’t see the light of day until 1800 England which although Harpsichords were still being built the last 1808 and spinets lasted longer in Ireland the Harpsichord was essentially old fashioned and the pianoforte was on the ascendancy. I do agree with Wim on wholebeat as demonstrated, although I see evidence of single beat interpretation in the 1880’s editions of Bischoff’s Bach complete edition. Unfortunately, I cannot find copies of Bischoff’s Chopin and other editions to compare with the MM of Chopin et Al.
@@jimclark7249 For later composers, Vallotti is wonderful, Italy and Vienna weren't in a vacuum, and no reason for earlier composers even the WTC (or Young in England for pianoforte for WTC and Scarlatti). My reasoning on the harpsichord discussion (for that matter there's plans for a harpsichord built in Berlin 1797, and I do not know what tuning method was used on the Mount Vernon Harpsichord of 1793 with the original having leather (probably Peau 'd Buff) plectra (by a maker unknown as it's the publishers Longman & Broderip listed as the Brand, who similar to modern practice of having OEM piano produced the instruments sold under their name by Chinese or Japanese manufacturers under associated with other brand name companies, sold instruments under their name built by a variety of instrument makers), many individuals who claim HIP in their programs, do not completely, for reasons of expediency, used HIP associated tunings. Playing Rameau's version of ET (actually WT) and turning around in the same program and playing F. Couperin who preferred Mean Tone for his compositions. Yes, some of the followers, students of Rameau most likely played on the WT of Rameau, but in a concert, with a tech, or two harpsichords, having a comparison of the two composers as they intended in the tunigs just may be the first impression and hearing of the music of which the public form their opinions.
Not to throw shade but I don't particularly like Lisitsa's playing. it's technically perfect but lacks poetry. It's not beside the point to mention that increased technical proficiency is only part of musical accomplishment, and not necessarily the biggest part. It would be one thing if you this insane commitment to technical proficiency were guaranteed to yield perfect results, but they're just not.
I saw her in a recital about 10 years ago and attended the master's class with her. She is definitely not the same as she was back then. Her Liszt Rhapsodies were not only played sanely, but they were also musical. Her playing today is cold and calculated almost as if she's mocking the music rather than impassioned by it.
i remember the horror i felt when i read Lang Lang's story years ago, and how he and his father went to the edge of madness - ugh - all for something that is supposed to be wonderful, inspirational and sublime ? the world of classical music needs to wake the hades up
@@petertyrrell3391 what direction do you think they should follow? Students these days are not only studying to play "fast", they're studying to play music. "Fast" playing - isn't something that will hurt you, wrong way of practicing will
Btw, just a slight correction: The video mentioned at the beginning (about the Chopin 10-3 etude) was not published by Nahre Sol, but by the YT channel "Heart of the Keys". The video is interesting though, just wanted to point this out for the sake of clarity.
Wim, it's regarded as normal. It's completely normalized. It's no pain no gain, and it's horrendous. Piano competitions are judged on speed and accuracy, and nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise. This means students from day one in the conservatoire are being forced to play at speeds that they physically can't manage and the build up of tension in the hands and wrists is awful. Added to that is the fact that most pianos in conservatoires and universities are not properly maintained and playing them is like a blunt force trauma onto the hands, which compounds problems. The reason people study into their 40s is because of the stupid graduate school system. Undergraduate should give you the tools you need to research, but no, we all need to be Dr. such and such in order to get a job, because the education system has to perpetuate itself and make more and more money, and once you're in on that first degree, it's a trap. I've heard professors say they won't let their students play Mozart unless the allegro is 140bpm for the quarter note.... Chopin Etudes need to be faster than the Cliburn competitors. People quite literally and seriously say if you don't play Liszt concerto like Yuja Wang then there's no point in playing it. I have a lot of respect for Yuja of course, but to idolize only one player's interpretation at the expense of all others is not helpful. Talking of Liszt concerto, here's a student of Liszt, Emil Von Sauer, performing it in 1938. This is very interesting, the tempo is not WBMP but it is way slower than anyone today plays it: ua-cam.com/video/ebFKl6WQZkk/v-deo.html
This is a serious and complex issue, but I don't think speed is the problem. For the simple reason that pianoplaying isn't faster today than 80, 90 years ago. And practicing lots of hours every day is certainly nothing new. Liszt for example, writes in a letter that he plays four to five hours - ONLY technical exercises. I don't want to be unfair to Mr W. and I think he genuinly believes that all problems would go away if everybody played in double beat. But as a 'non believer' in his theory, I still feel a bit uncomfortable watching this video, since he tries to make everything an argument in favour of his ideas. Including injuries and mental health issues.
@@jimclark7249 Exactly! And that is my "problem" with Wims video, since he is linking it with tempo and playing fast. But I have always noticed that those performers who play dazzlingly fast can do so because they have learned to relax while doing so! While it is very difficult, the virtuosos make it seem easy exactly because of that. I also noticed that, indeed you have to practice but sometimes playing fast is not even the hard part. And I have also worked with pupils who had a few lessons (or worse, taught themselves with online courses) and, while they could not play fast at all, they have injured themselves just as much by their bad and tense techniques.
Thank you for the video Wim, you defenetly made some good points! But i think you should separate the discussion of dobble beat theory from the discussion of the injuries in the conservatorys nowadays. Because it should be possible for play and teach students music in single beat without getting injuries. I think the real problem may be the emount of practice and how much students are forced into practicing, and you defenetly also talked about that. Hope to see more, from you in the future! Greetings From a fellow clavichord-player
My father was a violinist with one of the major symphonies from right after World War two, until the late 1970s, He was also a pianist who subbed at times for the orchestra pianist. He didn't have any injuries that I know of, even though the orchestra would sometimes have two rehearsals during the day, and a concert at night. Or have recording sessions that lasted for hours. Maybe times have really changed.
@@94albertoCT Sorry to sound like a know it all, if that's how I came across. It just surprised me that people are getting injured playing an instrument.
@@awfulgoodmovies No, not unless it was for another playing engagement involving solo, or chamber music work. He also played the piano, and subbed for the orchestra pianist. He had to practice those parts.
Not agreed at all! I even can't listen anymore to most young guitarplayers because of their tempi. There is one, Carles Trepat, he mostly takes the time to express real musicality, there are old recordings (take for example the originals of Sons de carrilhoes) who withness this. Nowadays this piece is played in a Mickey Mouse way, at least at double speed. You can't even recongize a Bach played by young guitarplayers as being Bach anymore. Listen to Sor and others: I can't imagine that their audience could even follow the speed these days young players perform at. Remember, 50km/h was seen as a devilish and harming speed in the beginning of the 19th century. And ... lots of injuries occur too, especially in the shoulders and the back. One remedy is to use a knee-rest to hold the guitar. That is certainly an improvement, but (apart from Aguado) players didn't need those things at all. Even footstools were used seldomly in the old days. Also look at the lute repertoire: this is also evoluating to more speed; the faster the better, ommitting all nuance. My old guitar teacher in the sixties told me: half of your working hours should be studying your instrument and the other half of it is remeniscing about music, talking walks in nature. He recommended about 5 hours of practice a day in this way.
Not true. If you care to tap out the speed of every guitarist on UA-cam playing Villa-Lobos etude no. 1 (inspired by Chopin op. 10 no.1), the vast majority is way over 120, irregular and not playing the appoyando accents clearly, because you simply can't at that speed. Only Julian Bream played it at 120 rock steady beat and with the correct accents. But that's Julian Bream and most guitarists don't get anywhere near that level of musicianship.
The voice of common sense. That is the main issue of this upload, alongside all the many many uploads in which you were dealing with so many issues. I've read some of the comments here below, and came to the conclusion that from now on, you need (in an opening declarative verbal sentence), to start by saying: "This is the X no. of my uploads, dealing mainly, but not only, with the aspect of Y..." (Do not settle for the info. written section. Most people do not read it). This would be an appropriate answer to those who seek faults in a single upload they came across by chance, and do not see the connection between the SB practice, and the physical/mental problems caused by it, as well as the neglect of all the main important music's components, in favor of the virtuosity component only. Thanks a lot Wim for your continuing blessed efforts, and I will continue sharing it in my own country, through Facebook, in public.
I hate to say this, but what even is the point of attending Juilliard in 2021? By the time I got out of conservatory in the early ‘90s, the overall culture was turning to trash, with arts organizations appealing to the lowest common denominator. What orchestral concerts are there, besides “classical’s greatest hits” and orchestras humiliating themselves by playing music from video games, or acting as a live soundtrack to a movie on a screen? There is NO general respect for educated musicians and for good music. It is done.
This. It almost sounds like some of that piano music wasn't even composed for the piano. Phrases sound awkward, with long pauses etc. Hard to believe that the composers wanted it to sound that way.
Your use of others’ names in titles feels usurious and dishonest. Please don’t make others speak words they never themselves said, especially someone with her own great channel like Nahre Sol.
Could you explain what exactly is dishonest in this video or title? Wim gives a long excerpt of Nahre Sol's video and comment on it. The title is an indirect quote of what she said. Nothing wrong with that.
@@JérémyPresle for starters, she had no involvement in the making of this video. The title is clickbait, drawing on her popularity, not Wim’s. And to take another person’s observations about health issues in conservatory and then launch into your own proposals for fixing them? It’s hard to think of a reason to do this that’s not usurious.
@@hjelmstad2 So what if she isn't involved in the making of this video? Nahre Sol is a public person. She made a public video. As for everyone else it is perfectly normal to comment on that. As for the title being clickbaity, that's unfortunately how UA-cam works, but nothing dishonest as I have already said, since Wim is just paraphrasing what she said. Glad to see you had no argument to prove Wim's 'dishonesty' 😉
@@JérémyPresle Its pretty obvious that he's been using this popular, and influential music UA-camr in an attempt to press his own agenda to a wider audience. For one, Wim didn't even take the time to research the actual causes of the problems Nahre talks about in her video or give any real insight on how to solve them, instead he just decides to link it all to playing too fast and calls it a day. He lacks nuance and is implying a causation that might or might not be correct, because its convenient to him and his cause.
@@JérémyPresle the good news is, we can all have our own standards of what constitutes dishonesty. Apparently 7 people and counting agree with me, and perhaps others agree with you. I stand by my original statement.
Suonare qualsiasi strumento bisogna tenere presente che si arriva ad eseguire pian piano ,maggiormente per il pianoforte si deve tenere presente la fisiologia della mano .La mia insegnante pretendeva di eseguire lentamente anche gli esserci,ho studiato e affrontato i famosi 2 volumi di Brahms,poi ci spiegava come il famoso Scaramuzza ed altri pedagoghi si comportavano in situazioni particolari . Complimenti Lei Wim che affronta questi particolari.
Tbh, not only music students have problems with mental health, if you're pushing yourself way too hard it's likely what's gonna happen, same with their physical statement
This is why I am very mindful of it and why I am extremely careful as a lifelong pianist. The reason why I wanted to go to conservatory was to be classically trained and so I could feel more in control of my piano playing and so I could feel like I can play anything and be the best I can be. I'm not a super perfectionist but sometimes I am. Being in a conservatory is not for everyone. I am currently mentally preparing myself for it also, having to practice 6-8 hours a day. If I get injured, so be it. Music is the one thing that keeps me alive mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. I'm not giving up music even if it kills me.
I have been extremely severely injured after overusing my body from piano practicing heavily, teaching piano, working on the computer, driving and travelling. I overloaded myself with so many things at the same time thinking I was invincible. After participating in a music festival, unbearable muscle contractions started in my neck and arms. As the years passed, my back started to hurt and then paraesthesia in my feet. My recovery was extremely slow and painful. I couldn't believe I could play the piano again. If I wasn't a classical ballet dancer in my youth as a hobby, I don’t think I could have known how to heal myself. Nobody helped me. I was left all alone to deal with tremendous amounts of pain. It was so awful. I visited so many doctors, took all kinds of medication (muscerol, coltramyl, arcoxia, magnesium, arnica, arthriflex..), had a vitamin D deficiency. Till now, I still haven't fully healed myself but believe firmly that I will soon. From August 2010 till now December 2021, 11 years have passed while my life was on hold. It was a nightmare....
I’m starting to have second thoughts of playing piano
if you are having all those problems I think you arent practicing slowly enough. get a metronome and play slow enough you can count each measure in your head
@@Strafola Thank you for the advice. It surely is very beneficial to play slowly with metronome. The lesson from all what I have gone through is mainly to listen to my body while practicing, to take multiple rests every 20 minutes or when I start to feel tightness, to drink water and learn to say no. Above all the programme I was preparing at the time, I had to memorize one movement of a piano concerto to play with orchestra in a music festival. One month before my trip, they have completely changed the concerto and I had to work on a new movement. It was exhausting. I should have said no because my body needed rest and I couldn't go on anymore. But I didn’t. Too much stress is not good at all. I’ve learned that the hard way...
@@leexu8806 Playing the piano is magical. Just be careful not to injure yourself from overpracticing or from practicing wrong. Be patient, humble, don't compare yourself to others and go at your own pace. Good luck to all of us!
@@stella_studio I practice until I sorta lose consciousness of what am actually doing. My finger moves on its own while I sorta dose off at that point it’s just my parents always COMPARES me with other highly skilled pianist and it’s starting to effect my mental health
Not just tempo, hand span is a limiting factor for modern keyboardists as well. One size fits all? Nope.
The French harpsichords had 6 1/4 inch octave spans. Some German Mietke, (JS Bach purchased one for the Coethen Court) Fleischer, and Zell in Hamburg used this span others used 6 5/8 Hass in Hamburg and the Ruckers earlier. French Pianos had narrower spans, in Chopin etudes those wide stretches not as wide as modern 6 1/2 spans which one UA-cam piano tutor says are possible on the piano at tempo “hard but not impossible” but I do not have time to measure if he’s really playing in single beat hypothesis.
@@Renshen1957 6” octave should be standard to fit most players.
@@rogerjamesmusic There's a combination Clavichord and writing desk (has lower drawer and to left of keyboard this a hole to accomadate an ink bottle) attributed to "the school of Johann Heinrich Graebner" which if the Metropolitian museum of art website measurements are correct has a 4.85 in compass to the octave! The keyboard is C to e''' (4 octaves +) must be a composers traveling clavichord...lengtth is 36-7/8 in. The Cristofori Fortepiano 1720's span is 6 1/2 inches. The elaborate Michele Todini Italian Harpsichord span is 6. 41 inches.
For those who are metric oriented, I have to get to an appointment:
Harpsichord
Pisaurensis (1533) = 169mm
Ruckers = 167mm (Hass Harpsichords are the same according to Neupert)
Pratensis (1612) = 166mm
J. Mayer (1619) = 168mm
Giusti (1676) = 174mm
Italian (1695) = 163mm
Berllot (1742)= 157.33 mm France
Jean Goermans (1754) = 159.3 mm France
Kirkman (1767) = 162mm
Graebner (1774) = 156mm
Clavichord,
Schmahl (1794) = 158mm
Pianos:
Cristofori (1726) = 164mm
Pohlman (square, 1770) = 178mm
Stein (1780s) = 156, 158, 160mm
Schiedmeyer (1780) = 156mm
Schiedmeyer (1785) = 180mm (Schiedmeyer made a Clavichord from a Square Piano profile 1796 and an earlier conventional one 1789, octave span 6 1/8 inch according to Hubbad)
Longman & Broderip
(square, 1790) = 169mm
Schantz (1790, 1805) = 160mm
Schmid (1794) = 158mm
Clementi (1805) = 163mm
Erard (Beethoven's
piano, 1803) = 162mm
Walter (1795) = 159mm
Walter (1803) = 153mm
Walter (1815) = 160mm
Streicher (1816) = 158mm
Kirckman (1820) = 162mm
Broadwood (Beethoven's
piano, 1817) = 166mm
Broadwood (1819) = 164mm
Boehm (6 oct) = 158mm
Fritz (c1825 in workshop
of Paul Poletti) = 167mm
Graf (1826, similar to
Beethoven's Graf) = 161mm
J.B. Streicher (1841) = 158mm
Pleyel (1852) ) = 164mm, However, one pianists claims that Chopin's 1839 Pleyel's octave compass was the same as the stretch of a Seventh on the modern piano...
Steinway (Hamburg, 1937,
modern range) = 165mm
Bluethner (modern range) = 165mm
@@Renshen1957 The reason for the narrower keys on the French instruments I was told was due to the ravelment. The instruments kept the same dimensions and fancy casework, but additional notes were squeezed in which caused the keyboards to become narrower. I also read somewhere that some Italian instruments had quite wide keys, either as wide as a modern key or a bit wider.
@@Renshen1957 I played the Schiedmeyer (1785). The keyboard felt "normal" and the same as my own clavichord. The instrument sounded quite nice too and I wanted to take it home, but I couldn't because it's housed at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. 🙂
What happened to Nahre Sol’s comment?…
Corporate mentality is what leads to such problems. It is sad, but true. Not only the tempi - those are rather a consequence. And what has it to do with soul and heart, like it should be? The answer is... You know.
George Balanchine required his dancers to read poetry and visit museums. Such should be also be part of a fully musical education.
Totally agree. I just left a post I think you will like.
Thank you, please continue to presistently bring up this important topic, there are not many talking about it
So students at the conservatory/university are 18 year old. But they are playing the piano for 10 years non-stop. No wonder they have physical injuries. Same for kids who play football in a club starting at age 8, or gymnasts. Some percentage of them have bad knees and other joints before they are 25.
Wim, to be honest, I'm not sure all these problems Nahre Sol describes are related to fast tempo... I mean... isn't it mainly the sad truth of our times? Young people outside the conservatories are increasingly depressive as well. It also has to do with young people feeling pressure of social media, of the idea that you 'make' your own success and need to be on top of your game all the time. I don't really see the link to tempo, playing fast, or composers intentions... In other words, I don;t think these problems will disappear when everybody would play at whole beat... just my 2 cents!
This is interesting. How much longer does it take to go from pratice / learning mode to performance ready?
Of course reduction in tempo won't solve all health and mental health related problems. It is one aspect of many, to be critical about. However, as empirical data shows blantantly, pianists - musicians in general - are disproportionately affected by risk of injuries and other medical and psychological issues connected to their musical activities. Imo it's necessary to question and analyse these problems specifically (!) in the context of the subject of playing music, instead of relativising and reducing it by saying "but everybody is depressive nowadays and it's just general perfomance pressure in our society". Even if it is true and surely a factor to consider; that alone takes away the focus, to productively discuss and effectively solve these grievances
We could compare between Classical and other genres, if the Classical world has more issues, then there is a problem internally.
@@tylerdurden2577 Certainly true, and playing Chopin competition level fast is certainly something that can cause great problems mentally and physically for someone who is aiming for that and isn't fit to do so. Especially with bad or abusive teachers. A great musician doesn't necessarily make a great teacher, I have experienced that as well! I was more responding to Wim who seems to imply that it all stems from reading the metronome differently, which he of course believed has happened in the ratio 1 to 2 - 1 tick instead of 2. But I'm not sure if I see that connection...! But you are right, this is a very multi leveled problem that needs to be looked at in classical music and piano practice, but it also goes far beyond classical music I think.
@@surgeeo1406 Well, we can always check the famous 27 Club to see if there is an overabundance of classical musicians! ;-)
Nothing is new that students at Julliard or others music conservatories in the world get injuries and mental problems. I have heard from one of my teachers who studied with Adele Marcus that people got physical and mental problems due to pressure that they had to learn pieces in one week. Louder, Faster and no wrong notes!!!!! 😬😬😬 It was a very long time ago and it still happens today and will be happened in the future. Sometimes I felt that time when I studied at one of the universities of music that it was not music-making anymore. It was some kind of sport and comparing with each other what kind of difficult pieces they were playing and that's all. At that time I began to hate to go to the lessons because it was not the music that I dreamt of before getting into the class.
Adele Marcus, now there’s a tyrant!
We have to learn to be kind to ourselves.
trigger finger - A condition in which a finger gets stuck in a bent position and then snaps straight.
Trigger finger occurs when the tendon in the affected finger becomes inflamed. Those most at risk include women, people with diabetes or arthritis, and people whose regular activities strain their hands.
Symptoms include stiffness, a popping or clicking sensation, and tenderness in the affected finger. Triggering is usually worse in the morning.
Treatment includes splinting, medications, and surgery.
"Just practice bro"
@@modernmozart813 Why not use your intelligence first?
@@modernmozart813 better English - do you have any?
Playing music should not be painful
Thank you Wim
There's so many dating and proverbs to counter this.
It's very rare to find a pianist who actually knows how to play piano. By this I mean, if you asked them this they would be incapable of a coherent explanation. I'm talking graduate level pianists. This is why students play with finger only technique and don't comprehend that even Bach had forearm up and down movement. Because nobody analyzes their muscle movements and go "oh I do all these things and not just this one thing." i know a pianist who was injured. I also know a student who was forced to take football and he broke his finger. Absolutely nutty institution. This is one of Wims best criticisms of the university and conservatory.
If either of my late parents were still alive, they would confirm that in the summer vacation time period I would practice or play 8 hours a day, they became surprised that I had a girlfriend, (let alone notice the opposite sex) and about 4 hours per day during school. I did break for lunch (my father came home for his lunch hour) and dinner, sometimes I would play after dinner for longer unless something was on the TV the family wanted to watch (or a TOS Star Trek re-run). However, I would not use the flat finger technique that is taught by many piano teachers. I used Christian Griepenkerl's description of what W F Bach had taught J. N. Forkel (the J S Bach clavichord method). The hand is designed to grasp, the fingers aren't levels. I never experienced any pain, however, I never went to the bottom of the key-dip, I depressed the key only until the sound issued, and held my hand above keys, with only the weight of the hand supported by the finger which depressed the key.
That being said, among pianists: focal dystonia is a neurological disorder and is a neurological disorder common among concert pianists. Some forms of paralysis have been treated by Botox injections. String players also receive playing related injuries. Among other diseases (besides those I private message Wim about musculoskeletal complaints and disorders (MCD) and “playing-related musculoskeletal disorders” (PRMD)) include Alien Hand Syndrome "in an unusual case of posterior AHS of the dominant hand in a professional pianist with corticobasal syndrome (CBS). The patient showed uncontrolled levitation with the right arm while playing the piano and perceived as if her hand had a “mind of its own” which prevented her from playing. MRI-scans show asymmetric brain atrophy, mainly involving left post-central regions and SPECT-Tc99m-ECD patterns of hypometabolism over the left parietal-occipital cortices. DT-MRI revealed extensive damage which comprised left fronto-temporal cortex and extends into the ipsilateral parietal cortex causing a disruption of corpus callosum (CC) projections from the rostrum to the splenium. Our case illustrates that posterior AHS may occur in the dominant hemisphere due to widespread damage, which exceed parietal cortex. The parietal lobe has been recognized as a multimodal association region that gets input from several networks and organizes motor output. We suggest that the disturbance to this pathway could result in disruption of motor output and associate an abnormal motor control and anomalous self-body perception." "Trigger finger," a condition in which one of your fingers gets stuck in a bent position. Your finger may bend or straighten with a snap - like a trigger being pulled and released, or sometimes lock in the position. People whose work require repetitive gripping actions are at higher risk of developing trigger finger. The condition is also more common in women and in anyone with diabetes. Also known as stenosing tenosynovitis occurs when inflammation narrows the space within the sheath that surrounds the tendon in the affected finger. If trigger finger is severe, your finger may become locked in a bent position. People whose work or hobbies require repetitive gripping actions are at higher risk of developing trigger finger. The condition is also more common in women and in anyone with diabetes. Another disease Carpal tunnel syndrome is caused by pressure on the median nerve. The carpal tunnel is a narrow passageway surrounded by bones and ligaments on the palm side of your hand. The symptoms can include numbness, tingling and weakness in the hand and arm. Repetitive motion can cause the inflammation which if continues can lead to nerve damage and worsening symptoms. To prevent permanent damage, surgery will take pressure off the median nerve, and may be recommended for some patients.
But these conditions are a symptom of a more insidious disease, the misdirection and extreme pressure piled onto up and coming musicians aspiring to become professionals. (If you didn't play the piano from age 3-4, become a prodigy, passed grade levels with rapidity, entered competitions and won, etc. forget having a career as a musician).
Solo professional musicians are commodity, to be sold similar to a stock or merchandise, and their only inventory are the concert performances they appear in, and for those who made it a recording contract. Keyboard players have it harder in this aspect, very few Symphony Orchestras have full time pianists, the day of the continuo harpsichordist has passed; even today, I see more Lute Players or Baroque Guitar players and "continuo organs' (Positive Organs) in Hip Chamber Ensembles, ironically there's a 5th Brandenburg Concerto on UA-cam with a guitarist strumming away, but there wasn't a Lutenist/Guitarist on the payroll at the Coethen Court. Two Viola da Gamba Players, one the father of a Viola Gamba player who would team up and start concerts in London with J C Bach.
Some name pianists attempted to hide multiple sclerosis, the onset of Parkinson's disease, and other health concerns. Glenn Gould was open about his eccentricities (he listed quotes on the back of his Beethoven/Liszt Piano transcription recording of the 5th Symphony; he kept odd hours, told people to cover their mouths when coughing or sneezing when riding on a public transport (I no longer have the album), wearing a full winter coat in Spring, Summer, and Fall in warm weather, but most unusually, giving up public concert performances, although he made many a radio and TV broadcast) that might lead one to presume he had some form of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).
The most commonly investigated disorder studied among musician's is "stage fright" (which one UA-cam video of Martha Argerich with her daughter backstage in a dressing room vividly demonstrated). Emmanuel Ax referenced it in another video on UA-cam. And a few pianists gave up concert careers for teaching because of it. These individuals with talent to burn are human, too. (Yes, I had stage fright, too, until I performed enough to get callouses on my nerves, my trick was to convince myself I didn't care about my performance." My major concern was how to get from my day job on Sunday after shooing people out of a store to drive to the church on time to play a 5:30 Mass.
In the Broken Musician, The Taboo of Injury and Disability in Music, Heather O'Donnell writes, "Performing musicians and the communities (my comment and addition, read "culture", end comment) that surround them (e.g. educational institutions, managers, and audiences) tend to reject the latter interpretation of disability (disability can be affirmatively accepted), even embraced, as an indispensable part of personal identity., instead vacillating between the pre-enlightenment concept of affliction (albeit without ascribing divine involvement (context God's punishment) and the 19th century model of normalcy, you were committed, even suffering for your art..
In this hybrid view, (embracing the disability) musicians’ disabilities are often viewed as a sign of weakness or a lack of commitment to their art. Musicians cycle through a large number of medical, psychological, and alternative (even esoteric) solutions for removing the impediment of the disability. The idea of embracing a disability as a source of personal (and hence musical) identity would be laughable to many musicians (if the disability has no affect on the musical ability, such as Itzhak Perlman, who although accepted for overcoming childhood polio, sometimes is still treated as a second class citizen, my addition as an exception), as this would involve violating a set of musical standards which are increasingly codified and competitive in the modern world, in which a great emphasis is placed on an individual’s market value.
As one person with Parkinson's, I am in constant pain and deal with secondary dystonia that causes my hands to tighten up so much I have cut and bruised the palms of my hands due to my fingernails and fingers digging in deeply and tightly. My feet turn in with my small toes turning inward while the big toes stand upward. There is no escape until the Dopamine replacement kicks in and then everything settles down. The PD also has slowed me down in other ways which frustrates me to no end on bad days, meaning I have some days when I can play as I used to and others that truly suck. I have learned to walk away rather than frustrate myself, otherwise, I would be in the bat house now!
My initial diagnosis was focal dystonia because This was during our first 10 minutes together where he ran some quick tests, moved my limbs, etc. When asked about activities I told the neurologist I played the piano for 1 hour per day and maybe 4 hours on the weekend, and he said that did it. WHAT? 1 hour per day, if I was lucky on some days, did that? He then said the only treatment is Botox.
Our conversation continued, as my throat tightened up from holding back my tears as he smirked at me and said, "Come to my Botox clinic, and we can start treatments".
His lack of empathy and smug answer led me to ask him for more tests. He reluctantly did, which showed other pyramidal as well as extra-pyramidal anomalies, but he insisted it was focal dystonia, and being one to see something amiss, I pushed back. I pushed and he put me on the Carbidopa/Levodopa (Sinemet) and it worked 100% the first time. There was something else going on here. A coworker had noticed changes in my gait, lack of arm swing, and more rigidity in my movements, and there were improvements there as well. My coworker's father had PD at the time, so she was aware of the symptoms.
After the C/L, I was able to play the piano again and I have done so ever since. But even still, he insisted it was focal dystonia, however, and after a messed-up report to my primary care doctor, I sought a second opinion, which proved everything to be something else. The first doctor's reasoning for not diagnosing PD is I wasn't old enough! I recently heard he's no longer practicing medicine, and I wonder how many other lives he ruined.
That misdiagnosis of Focal Dystonia sent me into a deep depression. I was nearly suicidal from it, gave up everything, and was ready to jump of the nearby bridge. I'm not kidding, I was seriously down deep in that black abyss. I'm glad I was smart enough to realize this guy was a schmuck and my PCP sent me to a different neurologist whom I've seen since then.
If I were a professional pianist, I would have been out of business today. It's a good thing I didn't follow my passion fully, although I did attempt when I was 48 years old. Due to the PD, I am now "retired" and enjoying my music at my time and with my energy levels, but to do this at the level expected today for a professional would have been impossible.
The thing is, my teachers, except for one, never pushed me beyond my means. They were all about the music and not just the notes and fastest tempi. My allegros were always quick, prestos fast, and slower tempos slow. My technique is and was always accurate and I played to the bottom of the keys, but with a firm curved technique that varies not only by the music, but also by the style with a more open hand for later music, and a more curved one for early music.
My lessons always included technique, ala scales, Hanon, Schmitt, Czerny, but not a lot of it. I would put in no more than 20 minutes per day at any of it and vary what I worked on so not to develop bad habits. Initially my hands were stiff, thanks to my early teacher's training, but later on I developed a relaxed hand but kept the curved fingers and solid technique. With that technique, I can play crisp and clear both loudly and softly as well as lightly without reaching for the una corda pedal as a crutch.
@@Clavichordist My father had an opposite experience, he had experienced what was thought to be a stroke which resolved itself somewhat (but not completely until after 24 hours), which affected his balance. Mom went to the best Neurologist in Tucson, AZ for an examination. The Doctor's test for Parkinson's Disease was to push over backwards to the floor of the examination room (my father, a WW II and Korean War Veteran, came up swinging!). My mom called me as to the diagnosis of PD, to which I asked, did he examine my father's shoes, run a battery of (I'll spare the list) neurological tests, etc. Mom said, no, after shoving, he put him on Sinemet. I said (according to the Physician's Desk Reference), Merk Prescriber, and other medical infomration Carbidopa isn't initially recommended for PD, and I really recommended she and Dad get a 2nd opinion, but don't mention the first Physicians name. At the second opinion doctor, when asked if Dad had seen another doctor, Mom name dropped the first doctor. The 2nd MD said he had been his teacher in Neurology. I found out when mom called back, but he performed a thorough examination, and didn't order further tests, etc., and immediately told both them, stop the the medication, "Your husband doesn't have PD, this was from a Transiant ischemic Attack (TIA, my father had one previously in the UK, 1993, for the one year early 50th anniversary celebration of the D-Day landings (as the thought was too many veterans might not live another year for the big official 50th). The first doctor was very lucky my mom intervened, as my father still could destroy gym machines with his strength (breaking restraining straps on his death bed two years later, to keep him from pulling out IV's in his sleep) and if the punch had connected, as my late former brother in law described his first impression of his future father in law as, "There's a man who could kill you with one blow." Thank you for sharing your teachers. My first teacher, from beginner to when I became accomplished in technique, after scales, teaching the "1 and 2 and..." method of counting plus an introduction to Hanon (still have the book, all I practiced was the drills for fingers 4 and 5), believed in two things never restrict a student from playing any piece, exposed me to a variety of music (she really wanted me to learn Czerny's "Butterfly Etude," I wasn't in to Czerny), she also believed one learned more actual music than excercises, and from hearing Wendy (nee Walter) Carlos, my introduction to the Inventions and WTC pt 1 and Scarlatti Sonontas, she firmly believed she had accomplished her goal as a teacher or any teacher, which is this, give the student the critical thinking skills and problem solving skills to find the answers for themselves. I may have had teachers in later in college (for the organ), but Mrs. Millicent Reese was my first and only teacher (unless you count all the subsequent authors I read on orchestrations (Cecile Forsythe and Rimsky-Korsakov are sufficient, Piston's book isn't worth the paper it's printed on for string technique (Forsythe is the best) or how to use strings (RK), Prout and McHose on contrapuntal technicque (Fugues, Double Counterpoint based primarily on J S Bach) Harmony (McHose superior from adapting J S Bach to Rameau, and Rameau who wrote about his music, Harmonie Lehrer by Arnold Schoenberg is superior Rameau, with no references at all to Serien composition). I wasn't interested in just playing the notes, I wanted to know what made the masters "tick", why they wrote they way the did, or as Beethoven said of Bach, "One doesn't just play Bach one studies Bach. And since my love of the music of the 17th to 18th century, that went into historical informed performance, which is one reason, I became interested in AuthenticSound. I respect and understand many of Wim's choices, although I may have a different take (I don't want to say disagree, more like I hold a different opinion-such as J S Bach had Werckmeister's earlier book in his list book, than the 1707 postumous publication, the book which mentions "Well Tempered" and the description of C P E Bach on tuning...
@@jimclark7249 UA-cam has a number of videos by piano Technician (s) who have the works of Chopin in different temperaments vs. true equal temperament for comparison. They maintain that “true” ET didn’t exist until the 20th century and what was called ET was a circulating approximation in essence a variant of well tempered tunings. My ears and “heart” are inclined to agree with this and my mind likewise. Leo Galileo, lutenist and father of the much more famous inventor of the first practical telescope, had devised something equivalent to ET, although the Chinese had developed the concept many hundreds of years before. The argument put forth by the Videos was there wasn’t a way to actually measure the beats in ET accurately until the first decade of the 20th Century, and that the human ear/brain cannot distinguish between what a test instrument can verify as ET and being off but still sounds beat less. That being said there’s no evidence that 19fh c. Tuners or musicians had a monochord or used said. There’s evidence in literature that mean tone tuning existed in churches in smaller villages and rural areas into the middle of the 19th c.
I have had some disagreements on UA-cam and Quara on Vallotti and Young tunings with a harpsichordist or two and playing J S Bach. I pointed out that Tartini never fully described this tuning outside of praising it Vallotti being a religious didn’t travel, and Vallotti’s 2nd through 4th books weren’t published from his manuscript until the 1950. Vallotti 1st book wasn’t published until 1779. And then there’s the simple fact that what’s called Vallotti and isn’t what the author described originally put forth in 1779. Young’s Temperament doesn’t see the light of day until 1800 England which although Harpsichords were still being built the last 1808 and spinets lasted longer in Ireland the Harpsichord was essentially old fashioned and the pianoforte was on the ascendancy.
I do agree with Wim on wholebeat as demonstrated, although I see evidence of single beat interpretation in the 1880’s editions of Bischoff’s Bach complete edition. Unfortunately, I cannot find copies of Bischoff’s Chopin and other editions to compare with the MM of Chopin et Al.
@@jimclark7249 For later composers, Vallotti is wonderful, Italy and Vienna weren't in a vacuum, and no reason for earlier composers even the WTC (or Young in England for pianoforte for WTC and Scarlatti). My reasoning on the harpsichord discussion (for that matter there's plans for a harpsichord built in Berlin 1797, and I do not know what tuning method was used on the Mount Vernon Harpsichord of 1793 with the original having leather (probably Peau 'd Buff) plectra (by a maker unknown as it's the publishers Longman & Broderip listed as the Brand, who similar to modern practice of having OEM piano produced the instruments sold under their name by Chinese or Japanese manufacturers under associated with other brand name companies, sold instruments under their name built by a variety of instrument makers), many individuals who claim HIP in their programs, do not completely, for reasons of expediency, used HIP associated tunings. Playing Rameau's version of ET (actually WT) and turning around in the same program and playing F. Couperin who preferred Mean Tone for his compositions. Yes, some of the followers, students of Rameau most likely played on the WT of Rameau, but in a concert, with a tech, or two harpsichords, having a comparison of the two composers as they intended in the tunigs just may be the first impression and hearing of the music of which the public form their opinions.
It’s sick. And I went to Juilliard BM MM
Glad to hear from you. Best wishes in the new year.
serious question though, what is bad about people studying at 40
Not to throw shade but I don't particularly like Lisitsa's playing. it's technically perfect but lacks poetry. It's not beside the point to mention that increased technical proficiency is only part of musical accomplishment, and not necessarily the biggest part. It would be one thing if you this insane commitment to technical proficiency were guaranteed to yield perfect results, but they're just not.
I saw her in a recital about 10 years ago and attended the master's class with her. She is definitely not the same as she was back then. Her Liszt Rhapsodies were not only played sanely, but they were also musical. Her playing today is cold and calculated almost as if she's mocking the music rather than impassioned by it.
i remember the horror i felt when i read Lang Lang's story years ago, and how he and his father went to the edge of madness - ugh - all for something that is supposed to be wonderful, inspirational and sublime ? the world of classical music needs to wake the hades up
If you're not working and trying hard - you can't win. In other professions it's the same
@@rusl4nalentiev well they almost suicided themselves - no profession is worth that
@@rusl4nalentiev If you are working and trying hard, but in the wrong way or in the wrong direction, it is pointless.
@@petertyrrell3391 but they are raised into a worldview where that's their only way to "success"
@@petertyrrell3391 what direction do you think they should follow? Students these days are not only studying to play "fast", they're studying to play music. "Fast" playing - isn't something that will hurt you, wrong way of practicing will
Btw, just a slight correction: The video mentioned at the beginning (about the Chopin 10-3 etude) was not published by Nahre Sol, but by the YT channel "Heart of the Keys".
The video is interesting though, just wanted to point this out for the sake of clarity.
Bravo! Music has stopped being the focus of conservatory life. It has been replaced by Pride.
I studied with Josef Raieff and Ania Dorfmann
Wim, it's regarded as normal. It's completely normalized. It's no pain no gain, and it's horrendous. Piano competitions are judged on speed and accuracy, and nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise. This means students from day one in the conservatoire are being forced to play at speeds that they physically can't manage and the build up of tension in the hands and wrists is awful. Added to that is the fact that most pianos in conservatoires and universities are not properly maintained and playing them is like a blunt force trauma onto the hands, which compounds problems.
The reason people study into their 40s is because of the stupid graduate school system. Undergraduate should give you the tools you need to research, but no, we all need to be Dr. such and such in order to get a job, because the education system has to perpetuate itself and make more and more money, and once you're in on that first degree, it's a trap.
I've heard professors say they won't let their students play Mozart unless the allegro is 140bpm for the quarter note.... Chopin Etudes need to be faster than the Cliburn competitors. People quite literally and seriously say if you don't play Liszt concerto like Yuja Wang then there's no point in playing it. I have a lot of respect for Yuja of course, but to idolize only one player's interpretation at the expense of all others is not helpful.
Talking of Liszt concerto, here's a student of Liszt, Emil Von Sauer, performing it in 1938. This is very interesting, the tempo is not WBMP but it is way slower than anyone today plays it:
ua-cam.com/video/ebFKl6WQZkk/v-deo.html
I agree 100%
Can you Imagine people of the Baroque era dancing a minuet at a contemporary tempo of 120?! Unless it was the prototype of techno music 😂
This is a serious and complex issue, but I don't think speed is the problem. For the simple reason that pianoplaying isn't faster today than 80, 90 years ago.
And practicing lots of hours every day is certainly nothing new. Liszt for example, writes in a letter that he plays four to five hours - ONLY technical exercises.
I don't want to be unfair to Mr W. and I think he genuinly believes that all problems would go away if everybody played in double beat.
But as a 'non believer' in his theory, I still feel a bit uncomfortable watching this video, since he tries to make everything an argument in favour of his ideas.
Including injuries and mental health issues.
@@jimclark7249 Exactly! And that is my "problem" with Wims video, since he is linking it with tempo and playing fast. But I have always noticed that those performers who play dazzlingly fast can do so because they have learned to relax while doing so! While it is very difficult, the virtuosos make it seem easy exactly because of that. I also noticed that, indeed you have to practice but sometimes playing fast is not even the hard part.
And I have also worked with pupils who had a few lessons (or worse, taught themselves with online courses) and, while they could not play fast at all, they have injured themselves just as much by their bad and tense techniques.
A lot of today's pop musicians have mental health problems and physical health's issues, and they don't practice at all. It's an imperfect world.
Merry Christmas, Wim and Everyone! Thanks for this important message-gift. I laughed out loud with “I should be injured all the time”.
Thank you for the video Wim, you defenetly made some good points! But i think you should separate the discussion of dobble beat theory from the discussion of the injuries in the conservatorys nowadays. Because it should be possible for play and teach students music in single beat without getting injuries. I think the real problem may be the emount of practice and how much students are forced into practicing, and you defenetly also talked about that. Hope to see more, from you in the future!
Greetings
From a fellow clavichord-player
But so many fast pieces are simply not playable in SB, or not playable in any way which makes musical sense.
This is a very rational comment.
After single beat, then dead beat 😉 (as in: completely exhausted)
My father was a violinist with one of the major symphonies from right after World War two, until the late 1970s, He was also a pianist who subbed at times for the orchestra pianist. He didn't have any injuries that I know of, even though the orchestra would sometimes have two rehearsals during the day, and a concert at night. Or have recording sessions that lasted for hours. Maybe times have really changed.
Yes, we have devolved, That explained everything. My research here is done.
@@94albertoCT Sorry to sound like a know it all, if that's how I came across. It just surprised me that people are getting injured playing an instrument.
Did your father practice at home? I dated an orchestral violinist and she often practiced on her own time. Never catch me bringing my work home!
@@awfulgoodmovies No, not unless it was for another playing engagement involving solo, or chamber music work. He also played the piano, and subbed for the orchestra pianist. He had to practice those parts.
Sorry for my coment. Im bad.
the guitar repertory is not concerned by this speed problem imao, fortunately for the professional students, but stress etc is the same surely
Not agreed at all! I even can't listen anymore to most young guitarplayers because of their tempi. There is one, Carles Trepat, he mostly takes the time to express real musicality, there are old recordings (take for example the originals of Sons de carrilhoes) who withness this. Nowadays this piece is played in a Mickey Mouse way, at least at double speed. You can't even recongize a Bach played by young guitarplayers as being Bach anymore. Listen to Sor and others: I can't imagine that their audience could even follow the speed these days young players perform at. Remember, 50km/h was seen as a devilish and harming speed in the beginning of the 19th century. And ... lots of injuries occur too, especially in the shoulders and the back. One remedy is to use a knee-rest to hold the guitar. That is certainly an improvement, but (apart from Aguado) players didn't need those things at all. Even footstools were used seldomly in the old days. Also look at the lute repertoire: this is also evoluating to more speed; the faster the better, ommitting all nuance. My old guitar teacher in the sixties told me: half of your working hours should be studying your instrument and the other half of it is remeniscing about music, talking walks in nature. He recommended about 5 hours of practice a day in this way.
Not true. If you care to tap out the speed of every guitarist on UA-cam playing Villa-Lobos etude no. 1 (inspired by Chopin op. 10 no.1), the vast majority is way over 120, irregular and not playing the appoyando accents clearly, because you simply can't at that speed. Only Julian Bream played it at 120 rock steady beat and with the correct accents. But that's Julian Bream and most guitarists don't get anywhere near that level of musicianship.
The voice of common sense. That is the main issue of this upload, alongside all the many many uploads in which you were dealing with so many issues. I've read some of the comments here below, and came to the conclusion that from now on, you need (in an opening declarative verbal sentence), to start by saying: "This is the X no. of my uploads, dealing mainly, but not only, with the aspect of Y..." (Do not settle for the info. written section. Most people do not read it). This would be an appropriate answer to those who seek faults in a single upload they came across by chance, and do not see the connection between the SB practice, and the physical/mental problems caused by it, as well as the neglect of all the main important music's components, in favor of the virtuosity component only. Thanks a lot Wim for your continuing blessed efforts, and I will continue sharing it in my own country, through Facebook, in public.
Thank you Wim! Merry Christmas 🎄🙏🏼😊❤️⭐️
As another example, Beethoven's father! Probably Mozart's as well. But us mere mortals probably would not survive such abuse.
My teacher told me to play hanon even if my hands were hurting...
I hate to say this, but what even is the point of attending Juilliard in 2021? By the time I got out of conservatory in the early ‘90s, the overall culture was turning to trash, with arts organizations appealing to the lowest common denominator.
What orchestral concerts are there, besides “classical’s greatest hits” and orchestras humiliating themselves by playing music from video games, or acting as a live soundtrack to a movie on a screen?
There is NO general respect for educated musicians and for good music. It is done.
You are right, and the classical music world did it to itself.
I've thought the same thing as well. Today our "classical radio" station is all excerpts and greatest hits rather than full works. Very sad indeed.
I studied at Juilliard BM BM. in the 1970s and I agree totally with you guys
The first thing that i did when a clicked the video was to search an answer from nahre.
Music is meant to crush the body so the soul can express itself Freely.
- some single beater, probably
That is the enemy’s endeavor.
I thought its Nahre Sol YT. Lol
Wim's arguments are solid, but listening to most of the pieces in Whole beat is just unbearable
This. It almost sounds like some of that piano music wasn't even composed for the piano. Phrases sound awkward, with long pauses etc. Hard to believe that the composers wanted it to sound that way.
Your use of others’ names in titles feels usurious and dishonest. Please don’t make others speak words they never themselves said, especially someone with her own great channel like Nahre Sol.
Could you explain what exactly is dishonest in this video or title? Wim gives a long excerpt of Nahre Sol's video and comment on it. The title is an indirect quote of what she said. Nothing wrong with that.
@@JérémyPresle for starters, she had no involvement in the making of this video. The title is clickbait, drawing on her popularity, not Wim’s. And to take another person’s observations about health issues in conservatory and then launch into your own proposals for fixing them? It’s hard to think of a reason to do this that’s not usurious.
@@hjelmstad2 So what if she isn't involved in the making of this video? Nahre Sol is a public person. She made a public video. As for everyone else it is perfectly normal to comment on that. As for the title being clickbaity, that's unfortunately how UA-cam works, but nothing dishonest as I have already said, since Wim is just paraphrasing what she said.
Glad to see you had no argument to prove Wim's 'dishonesty' 😉
@@JérémyPresle Its pretty obvious that he's been using this popular, and influential music UA-camr in an attempt to press his own agenda to a wider audience. For one, Wim didn't even take the time to research the actual causes of the problems Nahre talks about in her video or give any real insight on how to solve them, instead he just decides to link it all to playing too fast and calls it a day. He lacks nuance and is implying a causation that might or might not be correct, because its convenient to him and his cause.
@@JérémyPresle the good news is, we can all have our own standards of what constitutes dishonesty. Apparently 7 people and counting agree with me, and perhaps others agree with you. I stand by my original statement.
And I'm going to cut their performance tempo in half anyway! I'll gladly pay for slower performances.
Suonare qualsiasi strumento bisogna tenere presente che si arriva ad eseguire pian piano ,maggiormente per il pianoforte si deve tenere presente la fisiologia della mano .La mia insegnante pretendeva di eseguire lentamente anche gli esserci,ho studiato e affrontato i famosi 2 volumi di Brahms,poi ci spiegava come il famoso Scaramuzza ed altri pedagoghi si comportavano in situazioni particolari . Complimenti Lei Wim che affronta questi particolari.