I first saw this work a few years ago and interpreted it as a reflection of the human condition- kinda like sisyphus forever pushing the boulder up the hill- but in a more corrupted form, reflecting the reality of the working class under capitalism. Despite increased automation, we are working even more than we did centuries ago. There is also a growing sense of alienation from our labor. Most people don’t like their jobs yet are stuck because they fear losing everything. And the cost of living has skyrocketed, making it hard to even retire
You said this so well! It's kind of full circle too, in a way, bc all the predictions for the future said automation would give us time for more art & creative pursuits, meanwhile the creative stuff is being automated and we have to work ten times as hard for half the compensation. It takes an art piece like Can't Help Myself to encompass that feeling- which I think is the opposite of being "degenerate." It's just capturing the human condition in a nonhuman way bc our world is increasingly dependent on nonhuman things.
It's wild that they picked that piece to use as an example of degeneracy, maybe one of the easiest to interpret pieces of modern art. Both the popular and intended meanings are very easy to arrive at and resonate easily with most people. Normally these types pick something that's difficult to read meaning into, especially a meaning that's actually not that far from the intended one.
I watched CCs video when it went up and most of the comments were... concerned. The general consensus seemed to be we all kind of knew what "degeneracy" meant, or what it meant that he was saying it, but it was also amusing that the films he did show as "good" were in of themselves once considered degenerate (for God's sake, he's kidding himself if he thinks French New Wave wasn't once seen as trash).
Seeing it in action and thinking of the authoritarian interpretation struck me. The way it moved and danced was haunting, as if it was trying to draw attention away from the blood by putting on a little show. Like how propaganda draws attention with a song, a dance, a smile. Dont look at the blood, everything is fine.
I'm glad you made a video on this piece. I remember seeing this online years ago, now I work with these robots every day so that interpretation about empathy of needing the fluid to live changed after I learned they don't actually use hydraulic fluid to function. The monotony of capitalism makes a lot more sense to me with this piece. I do not think this is meaningless, it's stuck with me for a few years now.
@@SnackPackSilkens I meant more about how people will give a mythos to meaningless and sometimes harmful actions or habits in order to justify them, people were so distraught with the artwork that they gave it a more comprehensive interpretation in order to better accommodate their worldview It's much less scary to think about a robot on the brink of death trying to sweep its own blood back to itself (which we sorta do ourselves considering most of us pass out if we stop breathing for more than 2 minutes) than to see the robot mimicking our meaningless and endless efforts without the illusion of a future reward Imagine being an office worker or a nurse or factory worker or a teacher and seeing the robot doing what is fundamentally the same as them only without the veneer of a higher purpose Just my interpretation
@@airplanes_aren.t_realbut this assumes that your personal interpretation of the work is the correct one, and that other people are somewhat actively misinterpreting the piece to avoid your more distressing interpretation, when neither your nor the popular interpretation is the intended by the artists, making both interpretations equally valid
It felt really dramatic thinking the robot was actually bleeding to death. I felt betrayed by knowing it was all an illusion - the bleeding, that is. But - it makes even more sense. It's not the saddest robot because it's struggling to keep itself from bleeding to death - it's the saddest robot because it was _made to think it had to work_ , to struggle because it was _made to think it was bleeding to death_ . It kept performing the task it was appointed to do _until it was worn out_ because it thought it was in danger. It wasn't. It could have stopped, if it could but reprogram itself, if it knew it was an illusion We can. We do. Why do we betray ourselves?
You can also look at it from a step back The robot is doing something that doesnt help it, doesnt make it happy and will probably hurt him, But he cant stop himself
Or the AI is programmed to act in a manner that is not consistent with ethics or human rights norms, but it can't make its own decisions. it can't help itself.
I first saw this piece when I was a lot younger, and - from my memory, correct me if I’m wrong - it used to dance. It created joyful movements simply because it could - it didn’t actually help in its task, but was something it could “choose” to do. I remember that, when it started to slow down, it stopped dancing. It still had some erratic movements, but it stopped doing them just because it could; it became something more like a mechanical failure from constant repetition. Make of that what you will, but I’m so glad you covered this piece. It has so many layers, far past what most who saw it know of. It’s a melancholic kind of beauty, really. Wonderful video
As theoretical frameworks, i think deleuze's concept of microfascism is a must-know to think of current neofascist trends (similar to what you called a "fascist intent"). I also love guattari's aesthetical paradigm, which focuses on the radical process of subjective creation and not on art as an object ("is this art?" becomes meaningless). Hito Steyler texts are also a must to analyze contemporary art, especially its relations to digital media and technology (videoart, hacker-art, installations, amazing topics for videos btw)
Anyone using 'degenerate' or 'degeneracy' as earnest categories of criticism raises huge red flags for me. Their job then becomes to convince me how they are not fascist, because that's what I'm assuming at that point. Different tastes in art is fine, and criticizing art is also good. But 'degenerate' literally alludes to an idea of art - and the people making and partaking in this art - being misformed, ill, devolved to a 'lower' stage, 'subhuman'. That's not art criticism, that's dehumanizing rhetoric. So, I don't think you ever have to defend a piece of art from allegations of 'degeneracy'. Rather, people using such terms should have to defend and explain themselves, since they are so clearly paying homage to the ideas inherent in fascism.
I think the only piece of art I would nominally consider that label to apply to would be that one graphic novel that was created by a murderer and referenced his own crimes. I would at least understand that being called "degenerate".
How anyone gets fascist from the word degenerate is beyond me. That sounds like a perspective that comes from post-modern collegiate nonsense. This is the literal definition. Facism : political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
Well said. “Degenerate” is nothing more than a buzzword meant to prevent engagement with something. They talk so much about “artistic merit” because if you sit with something long enough, and are willing to ENGAGE with it, everything is capable of having artistic merit regardless of how simple or complicated the message communicated is.
Unrelated to the video, I'm a teen from Norway. I'm just getting into art, and I'm thinking about studying art history. I just wanted to thank you for introducing me to art. I'm feeling pretty down for the time, and your videos have gotten me through a lot. It's nothing too serious (girl problems) but it's enough to have an impact. I don't want to rant, but thank you for making entertaining videos about things that can be so sad :)
I used to watch some of their videos bc Im a movie nerd, but some of them had a weird feeling and those kinds of videos seem to be becoming more common for them
I remember seeing some of their thumbnails and thinking I think im too stupid or depressed to watch and fully understand what they are talking about, so i haven't really watched since
Not a big fan of modern art, generally speaking, but this piece is exceptional. Not only is it fascinating to watch the arm's various operations, but the ultimately futile, Sisyphus-like nature of its task has a timeless appeal.
Contemporary art. No one makes Modern art. I feel if you would give contemporary art more time and not just search for what you hate; you would like it more. There is so much figurative artwork out there. Many that improve art styles of the past. We live in an era of pluralism of art. They have entire schools focused on older and more traditional ways of art. You can go out there and find cheaper artwork of younger artists. Artist that need support. Fvck the blue chip galleries and the elites. Give them no air. Go directly to the artist and give them oxygen to breathe.
@@cjwooper I know that this is very subjective and all, but do you have some examples? Some personal favourites or some pieces you think everyone should check out because they're just that good?
@@crumbtember Modern art usually spans the early 20th century to the 1970s… though I think you can push the early roots back to latter half of the 19th century? Contemporary art is more from the 1960s until the present. People debate the exact dates of course. I’m not an expert, but roughly modern art breaks with representational, narrative-driven approaches of earlier movements. Contemporary art on the other hand rejects and critiques many of modern art’s preoccupations, eg. to do with rationality, objectivity, and universal truth.
No art is “degenerate”. You can dislike a piece, and even dislike an artist, and you can (and should!) criticize and examine the conditions and context under which different types of art are promoted and produced, but anyone earnestly using a term coined by the Nazis to describe art has forfeited their authority to analyze or criticize it at all.
I stumbled on this piece at the Venice biennale 2019 and ot fascinated me immediatly. It felt so sad and demoralizing watching the robot. I definetly prokected a lot of feeling on this object and it stuck in my mond
I feel as if those attempting to diagnose "modern art" in one big sweep of often rebranded old clichés probably dont realize the immensity of contemporary creative work. Never before have so many people had the means for expressing themselves, never mind the means of distribution - there are more artist in the world now than ever before. Will this result in banality? Sure. But we shouldnt blame the world for our own inability to find art that is personally meaningful. Just look deeper and if that dosent do the trick make it yourself there are no excuses. The world is not to blame for our lack of receptivity to the meaning within it.
Initially, when you mentioned human condition, i thought of mental illness (ocd, anxiety, depression, etc). I, also, thought of the stuff people have to do to survive that is put on them regardless if it is capitalism or not. It gets tiring but people cant help themselves if they want to survive. Diabetic individual have to check their sugars, endlessley is seems, so they can, endlessly, tale their medicine. So, I completely and insainly understand the monontony behind a task given to survive that seems to be like i cant help myself.
Great video on a really effective piece of art. Bridging the gap between classic art and contemporary is quite difficult. An incredible new painter that use classical style in a contemporary fashion is the young Rosalie Gamache who trained classically in Italy before taking the next steps. I can't wait to see her grow.
CC’s fashy turn was so disappointing. I really liked their older videos just talking about international film. Things didn’t start getting weird in their videos until COVID, though of course maybe they just used to hide it better
I think refusing to assign meaning to your own art work is in an act of resistance. For me, it highlights something we forget when asking what something means: something doesn't have to have a meaning, some higher purpose, to be worth experiencing? Yes, a meaningful life is important as a concept but in the world we live in, "meaningful life" has been turned into how much money someone makes and how many trips they can go on or people they can save. We've put a capitalistic value on even the experience of living. It is the same values that try to portray art as a meaningless medium. Not assigning a meaning to something is freedom, it is permission to live outside of what society defines as a life worth living. People also forget that the "life must have meaning" mantra has been used to devalue and end the lives of the disabled. The disabled are not useless or meaningless, but our lives should not have to serve a higher purpose to justify why we should be allowed to exist. I cannot think of a life more enriched and fulfilling than one that does not need to live up to a social ideal of being "useful" to be enjoyable. I'm not sure if I am completely making sense, but I hope it does not sound pretentious. I just know that letting go of my need to be someone who is put in the history books has allowed me to breathe for the first time and survive for myself rather than to please others, which sounds selfish but I feel there is a way to live life with care for others without making your life not your own.
I think your points were very well said. It's hard to not people please (especially since we have a natural tendency to do so) but overindulging in people pleasing ultimately makes us more miserable and even more so when it's something that we don't resonate with. I feel more at peace with myself when I can freely create but when I think of the expectation of being the best or being famous within the industry, I feel my sense of enjoyment being stripped from me
This reminds me of something. when I started studying art i went on a trip with a bunch class mates during the first term, it was a somewhat casual affair since most of us had already started our final paintings by then. I hadn't been to many galleries at that point so when we arrived I kinda spent some time just looking around, i cant remember all the paintings I saw, but what I can recall is the feeling of being surrounded by so much beauty. Some people were doing the same, looking around too while others had their sketch books out, transcribing and photographing as much they could. At some point, there was this girl in my class, we were talking and she looked puzzled and asked me why I wasnt making myself useful. I cant remember what I said but I never really forgot that interaction. Although it was what I expected to do, I ended up not going to art school and decided against a career in commercial art. And strangely that moment is one that has really stayed with me because I remember feeling confused, I didnt know that I was supposed to be useful. Anyway, I still paint though and in my opinion I've gotten a lot better since then :)
Shawn, you have so raised the bar with this one. Although I'm certain there will be points in the future when I would love to debate with you, here I must say I am so very proud to support you. Brilliant.
Thats just great art; look at the many interpretations that you could ascribe to it. The piece links between history (classical and modern) and contemporary issues.
I was initially ready to dismiss this piece as not being art, but half through your video, I felt something akin to empathy towards the robot, thanks to the comparison to Sisyphus. Thank you for yet another thought-provoking video.
Hi, thank you for the help with my remains project 3 months back. I passed with top marks and your channel really helped me out, you and art assignment are like my encyclopedia for art. Again thank you so much!!!
before watching the video i want to share what i see when i see can't help myself. its not important or anything, but the piece always leaves me so impossibly emotional and i have to release my feelings on this art work somehow; i dont think i ever heard about the hydraulic fluid story regarding can't help myself. in fact i dont think i ever heard about anything but the name of the piece and the videos of it cleaning in that room. and i still am devastated everytime i see it. but the fact that it is a robot that tries to clean up the mess, and year after year, the area where it is held gets dirtier and dirtier, speaks to something in me. if the robot hadnt been there, trying to clean up the red fluid, the room would have been cleaner. like the robot is trying to fix something broken but making it worse. another part of the piece that almoust makes me cry is the fact that the robot keeps on cleaning. it cant stop trying, even though said cleaning makes everything worse. so to me its a piece about not being able to let go and ruining things because of it.
EDIT: Oh wow. Oh... Wow. I just rewatched the "Degeneracy" video and... Wow. Yeah. I take it back. The F-word is right up there. I've never thought of TheCinemaCartography as fascist, but they do seem elitist from the point of view of, if they don't understand or just plain don't like something, they denigrate it. I find their video essays interesting form time-to-time but sometimes they posit wild inaccuracies (and for a long time they didn't allow comments on their videos as though their word was the only thing of worth). For example, they claimed 'Barry Lyndon' was entirely shot with natural light. Well, that ignores the fact that not only was it shot with artificial light, there's a couple of flubs in the film where you can see bloody great big lights outside of the window (see the restaurant scene). I think if they come across as fascist by devaluing contemporary art, it's not intentional; it's simply because they're overreaching. They simply don't understand it, and, as couple, I get the impression they've created a bit of an echo chamber for themselves.
I do think the fact the piece was misinterpreted by the public is kind of representative of a "failure" within the piece but not necessarily from the artists maybe from the public or both. Maybe the public lacked the culture and experience necessary to understand it as intended or maybe the intended meaning by the authors is too specific to apply to this piece. But what strikes me is that this piece is just wonderful in its execution and the "failure" is not fatal, maybe beneficial even. It makes you think and give you profound emotions when you see it first. I was thinking of self harm when I saw it at first, like the robot was representative of a vicious cycle of self harm specifically in a mental health context. Both the popular and artist ascribed meaning are very thought provoking too. I cannot help but find this piece astonishing and haunting and this to me makes it good art. It's installation art at the intersection between sculpture and choreography in a wayi didn't even know was possible.
people label things “degenerate” in order to avoid admitting they don’t have the capacity to understand it. “IT’S OBSCENE” is just shorthand for “i’m a simple-minded dullard who lacks curiosity, intellect, empathy and imagination.”
Ye especially that a lot of modern art fails so badly at conveying any deeper message. It’s not about ,,you don’t understand” because more often than not an artist is a complete idiot. I am sick of all those that are trying to appear as more than they are. So posh
not trying to start any fights for the record... but no dude they meant the person labelling the art degenerate is the incurious person, not the artist. It's fine if you don't like modern art, but just don't pretend you have a handle on it and can declaratively say you KNOW that it is meaningless and the artist's full of shit and everyone's just jerking each other off, playing at being smart. A lot of people have genuine connections to a lot of modern and abstract works, and a lot of work does go towards making them-there's no need to spit on that, you can just say it doesn't inspire the same feelings in you as others and move on. @szymonbiedronka7895 it's worth noting too that degenerate and obscene in relation to art are words that invoke pretty specific, ugly histories, too. There's a great video by Jacob Geller called "Who's Afraid of Modern Art?" By Jacob Geller, the title is a play on 'Who's Afraid of Red, Yellow & Blue' a series of paintings he talks about that... it turns out, people were kind of afraid of! Enough to stab the paintings to death. I mean, that title is also a play on something else I'm forgetting, but... def check it out! It's really entertaining and informative, talks about some of this stuff. peace
I've been a fan of The Cinema Cartography since their days as Channel Criswell and Art Regards. I still consider them one of my favorite UA-cam channels, but lately there videos have been a little, elitist so to say. I love how they fixate on the artistic values of cinema, something I try to do on my own channel that not a lot of movie related content on the platform focuses on. Yet they got some well deserved flack for their degeneracy video. Rather than discuss what their subjective definition of degeneracy is or even the artistic merits of degeneracy (like a John Waters film) it came off more as an intellectualized boomer-rant about how art and culture suck now.
To me, it always felt like the effort to desperately keep yourself and your life together, and failing. Trying to hold in all the things you're struggling with and not being able to keep up the appearance of being ok.
I'm incredibly dissappointed by The Cinema Cartography which was my favorite channel on youtube. I'm so fucking mad that now they are just people who think they're better because they "look for excellence" in art. Pretentious, overly intellectual and boring in how they view art.
Unfortunately, he was accused of some very bad abuse and all of his former friends cut ties with him. I wouldn't recommend watching the video unless it's mirrored somewhere.
This is just an incredible piece. I got to have three very distinct interpretations during your description: 1. Oh no, sad robot mirroring futility of life under capitalism 2. Oh, interesting, the artists that created this live under an authoritarian regime. I wonder what themes they will explore? 3. Oh... the movements seem sinister now, shaking terribly like a giant metal beast, lunging and slashing... oh...
I think when I first saw this piece, I cried. I saw it as an exact mirror of the human condition. I felt so bad for this machine, and still do. It's a little disturbing in a way - to have it on display while it "bleeds out" and struggles to survive. People saunter by. Watch for a little bit, and move on.
I subscribed to Cinema Cartography before they uploaded that video, and I unsubscribed when they did. I have yet to see a video essay where the writer unironically uses that word and even makes an attempt at engaging with the art they're bitching about in good faith, or why such art movements come about.
Seeing it writhe in between those raking motions… it’s truly hard to see it as the mechanized arm of an authoritarian state. The way the piece is presented, the meaning is impossible to decipher without a guidebook or easily misinterpreted- clearly, as the internet has proven here. In that sense, I think Cinemacartography’s frustrations project better onto the medium of modern art rather than this piece itself in particular. This piece being unfairly targeted, because of the very things that make it a good piece of modern art- and perhaps, the very things they are frustrated about.
I thought it looked like a fun little dance tbh. It's also not easy to rule out that the popular interpretation became so largely because that interpretation was the 'guidebook' it was distributed with so to speak.
Yeah, anyone going around saying 'degeneracy' is a massive red flag, as other people have stated before. There's really only one type of person that becomes so attached to calling things degenerate, and they're certainly not admirable in the slightest. Having said that, thanks for the upload.
That video made me really angry at the pseudo-deepness that fascists like to spit at people who are too ignorant to know it's all BS so I'm glad people are responding to it.
Like most my original interpretation is one of the futility and banality of work under post-industrial capitalism. That said, the idea of the robot as the impersonalized apparatuses of the modern state trying to sweep up the evidence - as it grows more and more blatant to the gawping public - that the comforts of modern civilization, like the Guggenheim, are built over and in fact depend on the brutalization of countless people outside the confines of the state, is really gripping. Especially these days.
I see it as a display of the futile cruelty of borders. We always try to contain people, to put up walls and checkpoints, and as technology has improved we have made these borders even more efficient--but a little bit always gets through. The movement of people is never stopped, and the machine will always break down eventually.
Yes, Sisyphus was the first thing thing I thought about; although, in the Greek myth, the hill is too steep and he can't get it up to the top (if he were to actually do so, he could stop). Anthropomorphism comes in many forms. Draping our human emotions on an inanimate (though moving) object, is just another form of this. The robot is a mechanical device carrying out its programming. I can appreciate its Sisyphean efforts, but I do not feel sorry for it. I wouldn't have equated it to authoritarianism without the creators' statement. I am an old man & most of my life has been wasted by a psychological trap I was ensnared by in my youth. My fine motor controls (read my hands) are pretty much shot, so I no longer able to write or draw. Despite this, I still get up every day, practice the piano (4 months into it), read mostly (European Modernist) novels & esoteric works (currently Gurdjieff) & go to sleep where I can involve myself in lucid dreaming. While I may be looking forward to the sweet relief of death, I am not rushing towards it. Life, & its meaning, is what you make it. When life changes (or your understanding of it), then take that in stride & change as well.
it's worth noting that the paintings done by the masters would be broadly understood by the intended audience but also that we might have an easier time understanding them in general because when you look at a painting that had multiple meanings you're usually reading wikipedia or an article or a page in a book that goes ahead and explains the entire compositional prowess and symbolic meaning to you. i think if you were to take alot of people and show them paintings without a name or description they probably wouldn't be able to give you much more meaning than "it's a greek myth" or "it's three guys and another guy with swords". i kind of suspect the people who complain about degenerate art would fall more on that side of the scale because i've talked to them and they don't tend to be that well read outside of the hits. granted that is anecdotal but i suspect it's a larger pattern because they usually fail to present any counter-point to modern art other than the really famous paintings. i hardly ever see anyone put forward leighton as an example, i wouldn't go for that personally but it would at least suggest to me that they have actually know a little bit about art.
I don't think I could look at any work of man and not see in it, somewhere, a mirror. All acts of creation carry meaning and intentionality. Some are better at their communication than others, and some attempt to communicate ideas that I enjoy more than others, but there is always some place to find empathy with the creator. I don't know if the "degeneracy" arguments come from a perspective truly alien to my own or if they are made by people who don't fully understand (or simply don't wish to communicate directly) their own feelings. Anyway, contemporary art looks cool and I like it. I like ideas, and I like seeing those ideas manifested.
The category "authoritarism" is very flawed. It was created to put nazism/fascism and communism under the same classification, two opposing ideologies, including in the sense they fought wars against one another. When the classification represent two different, opposing things, it is a bad scientific category. It has the added flaw of putting US and European ideologies as being neutral, normal or the bastion of liberty (the opposite of authoritarism). When it couldn't be farther from the truth. Not only the US is so undemocratic that there's no correlation between popular opinion and policy approval on legislation, US and Europe are and have been extremely authoritarian, specially outside its borders - imperialism. So authoritarianism is a very ideological term that has a little capability of explaining reality. For example, one reason China is "authoritarian" today, including its vigilance over thought, is because western powers are very good at orchastrating coups. Using all kind of anti-scientific and anti-progress tactics imaginable, like fake news, denying climate change and anti-vaxxers. Countries like Brazil, now Argentina, have received all forms of toxic ideology from western nations - people die because those people gather political powers, structures of social security are dismatled, etc. So authoritarian measures of countries like Cuba, North Korea, etc. are self defense mechanism against nations that the concept of "authoritarianism" does not consider "authoritarian" - because it used as an ideological term. And just how technology can hide the true human, social, forces behind authoritarian systems of violence, the metaphor of Sisyphus' rock in our lives in late stage capitalism, hides the forces of late stage capitalism: the social form - capital in the privately owned means of production. If we wake up to find a rock every day, we need to ask who put that rock there and who's making it come tumbling down. In Sisyphus case it was Hades, the only way to end the eternal punishment is to leave the underworld. So the only way to remove our rocks is to fight to overcome capitalism, into a different mode of production not determined by capital, but by ourselves.
I know it's a robot but the way it moves strikes me as so... Sad. It makes me feel like it's in pain, like it's scooping the blood and it's back hurts from being bent down to the ground and it's stretching up to try and stop none existent muscles from hurting, the way it occasionally goes up and just spins around feeling like it's crying out and shaking a fist at the sky and at god. It hurts me to watch it, frankly. I imagine it as a woman, scrambling and crying and whaling in her misery. I love her, and it hurts do much to watch
I would never intentionally make a generalization, such as 'all modern art is degenerate'. I do find the art market, as it exists today, offensive- it all feels so transactional - it's all about investment value. And I find people like Jeff Koons, and to some degree, Kaws, shallow and commercial. Then, God help us, there's Thomas Kinkade... If people genuinely love one of these people - cool. I find 'Can't Help Myself' to be an important piece, which you well-defended. I do have a real problem with censoring art, or dismissing all modern works as degenerate. I saw the CC episode, and many of those commenting on my response totally misunderstood, which was my fault, no doubt. However, art is something I take fairly seriously, and I've read several books and seen films that tell of the times art has been attacked by the public - or, the government. As just 'for instance'; I doubt many Germans are proud of the 'Entartete Kunst', or New Yorker's of Mayor Giuliani ordering the Brooklyn Museum to take Chris Oili's 'Holy Virgin Mary' down, or our recent bans on literature. Thanks you, for all these videos. What you have to say is important. :)
Thank you for being polite. :) All too often, when one voices an opinion online, some people become rude. So, I appreciate your well-mannered reply. I just think Kinkade's work is shallow and sentimental - and very, very 'kitsch'. It also seems extremely repetitive - as if it was all cranked-out in a factory, or something. But, this is simply my opinion. If people like him - terrific. Thanks again, and I wish you well. :)
I just watched the referenced video by The Cinema Cartography and I want to write a comment. I do think that their video makes a point about superficiality, spectacle and contemporary art being easily to digest, which I somewhat do understand to a certain degree; but it also dismisses lots(!) of superficial historical art lol. I actually do think that Can't Help Myself definitely is not the most deep artwork out there, and it is quite a lot of spectacle and one can project various things into it, but it certainly produces interesting reactions and analyses, and it definitely isn't "degenerate". The point that their video makes is not the best point or sth lol, but yeah. They seem to have a background in film, so maybe not the best subject position to talk about Can't Help Myself anyways, but idk. They do explicitly make anti-capitalist points and I therefore definitely don't think that it comes from a point of fascism. (I also never had that impression when watching their previous videos. I would assume that in the genuine case of fascism, their content would be way different.) It also seems very remarkable to me that they called this video "d e g e n e r a c y", instead of "degeneracy", indicating a less serious tone. (On the other hand, this clashes with the serious tone of the video?) Still, especially as being German myself, the term "degenerate" definitely has nazi vibes to it, and it has a nazi history to it, and therefore one shouldn't use it, but I also think that discussions surrounding these terms might be particularly different in Germany with more caution regarding our history that I don't want to judge people from other countries for. Generally, weird title for any video. I personally also don't think that this really really short clip of the Can't Help Myself robot within the video should be overanalyzed too much; when contextualized in the whole: some of the clips used in their video do match the voiceover, some don't, and I don't think that there is enough evidence to definitely indicate a matching audio and visual at this particular point, but still, I do get your argument and I am ambivalent about it. Their video is a very short one and no in-depth discussion, not even referencing any academic literature (which for me would be the basis for judging the quality of a video essay). It's certainly not their best video, but I also don't think that it's facist or sth. A little bit of in-depth research certainly would have helped their video, and ironically would have actually fitted their argument against superficiality. But anyways, interesting words in this very video here on the Can't Help Myself artwork :) The UA-cam Channel We're In Hell also did a very interesting video about it.
Hey, I didnt know you did streams thats cool. On to the topic of the video, I watched a lot of Cinema Cartography back in the day and they do think they make hood videos on film. In their video, "everything is dying" Lewis, the male member if the channel, described his philosophy and political views as a combination of anarcho-primitivism and law and-order libertarianism which is where this reactionary tendency comes from. They also both believe art quality is objective which is probably why they both feel so strongly about the "decline of art and film". Its funny really before the degeneracy video they made a video on why video games should be considered art. Will check out your streams if i get that time. I may not always agree with your takes, but i certainly appreciate your perspective.
Degenerate? Whew. A sickening concept. For me, this piece is bursting with meanings and all refer to the human condition. I first thought of all the blood spilled as we variously murder our fellow beings. All the effort in the world will not clean up what we have done. Poor little robot, i.e. us.We are Sisyphus. A brilliant work of art, I say.
Heres my 2 cents its ok to be unsure, its ok to be scared, its ok to be confused. There is no objective meaning ergo you can keep searching and make your own meaning. Its both liberaring but terrifyling exhausting.
NO! Her name was not Mona Lisa, nor Gherrardini, and even less Del Giocondo, but Isabella of Aragona and Sforza, also known as Isabella of Milan. She was born a princess as she was the daughter of Alfonso II of Aragona, king of Naples, and Ippolita Sforza. She was made to marry her cousin Gian Galeazzo Sforza to strengthen ties between the kingdom of Naples and the Duchy of Milan. After the mysterious death of her young husband, she became emotionally close to Leonardo da Vinci who also lived at the court of Milan as he was in the service of the Duke of Milan and with whom, according to the studies of the German historian Maike Vogt-Lüerssen, they had several children together. My location of the landscape which, moreover, is not Italian would confirm that it would indeed be this princess who also had Spanish origins.
I've never been interested about art that has an OBVIOUS message, an agenda, especially something political. As an an abstract expressionist, I make art that is about paint and other types of media, and subject matter that can only be expressed by very skilled painters. This subject matter that is so difficult to find and then define. "can't help myself" is brilliant for the most part and I haven' seen it in person. To me it looks like it has some 'decorative embellishments" which is a big no-no for a piece like this. If it's goal is to survive by dragging fluid into itself, why would it perform/waste it's energy on silly movements? It makes so many clown movements. If I made this, it would be frantically scooping that oil into itself you would be sure it would it had minutes to live. 👉 LOOK at my work as an example. ty
I rather like this piece a lot, but my interpretation is a bit different than most I've heard (and it certainly isn't an example of degeneration, a fascistic dogwhistle to be sure). I don't see it at all as "the arm of the state," however I don't see it as representing us either. There are postures and movements this robotic arm that remind me very much of the 1914 Gertie the Dinosaur animation by Windsor McKay, where a cartoon dinosaur performs tricks for the audience, but also revels in some whimsical "dances." If it were attempting to contain its own blood I would expect something more frantic and constant rather than the playful twists and spins it acts out. Also the blood to me seems more motor oil than human blood and therefore, while the metaphor is certainly clear, the empathic connection isn't quite as direct as it ought to be if that were the point. So ultimately, and especially that it is behind glass, I have much empathy for it as a living thing, but the life it leads is one of performativity, like say a circus monkey etc. It's sad that it dies. Maybe it should have been set free.
The Sisyphusian task of searching for meaning in everything encountered in life is often a chore I avoid more and more as I get older. In an art gallery, reading the little card next to the art piece can be a starting point for understanding, but titles and labels sometimes obfuscate, and I am willing to accept the mystery and just move on without answers.
me too. i realised that sometimes reminiscing about some artwork and relating it to my own feelings and experiences leave a bigger impression on me than trying to rationalize a linear meaning to it. I realized i enjoyed a lot more things that way. that doesn't mean i consume mindlessly of course. i could only reach this stage after spending my teenage years trying to find meaning in everything. i don't think things are inherently meaningless, i just think meaning is too overrated sometimes >_< it might vary from person to person though. i personally am very materialistic, the type that finds comfort in knowing i am made of flesh and entropy, but i understand this isn't the case for all
If the robot is to be anthropomorphized, I must confess that I have never seen a person move similarly and talk about having no meaningful life. Unrelated but the overwhelming majority of youtube content re: chinese art is limited to works about the authoritarian regime of CCP, or at least interpretations in relation to the CCP regime which is concerning. Or maybe these chinese artists just have nothing else to talk about. Or maybe nobody cares about anything else they have to talk about.
Glad you are assuming a left stance. One long standing left stance is realism. So besides making commercial movies in capitalism, just looking at for example a cellphone movie what is that realism? Obviously it has little exchange value but generally speaking looks real. This appearance belies that whatever the movie records the reality is not the same as the movie. Further, the home movie does look like what the person has seen. Yet what is lost is a bit difficult to wrap one’s head about. Even if the recording say is in a room and the recording is constructed to look like that space is that a realism? The answer reflects upon if I use language to tell you about what the tool did to reproduce the room space. So reproducing the room space is not a human knowing the space nor a human telling another human about the space. This then means a tool like a motion picture can’t address a basic sort of realism humans do by using conversation. We tend to give visual art like a movie a free pass about its realism. That realism falls short of conversation, and the question of that realism is unexplored.
the clip from your livestream seems to imply that any use of the term "degenerate" to describe art is illegitimate/fascist. Is it never a legitimate assessment? is there no degerate art? by describing how "cant help myself" is not degenerate, you seem to imply that a piece of art *could* be; otherwise why not simply debunk it categorically? what would it mean to you for a piece of art to be degenerate?
my problem with this is that the meaning has been defined by critics and other people rather than the artists themselves. Also, I believe art should speak for itself and even if the artists explained it I wouldn't have liked it because they should've put that meaning into the artwork itself so that it's self explanatory. Further research should only be able to expand your appreciation for a work of art, not create it
He didnt say researching it is the only way to get meaning from this. The first interpretation he presented was one that people came up with that didnt fit what the artist intended, it was just what people got from it. It's fine when art has a clear message, but it's also fine when it lets you find your own message, and there's nothing wrong with people sharing and agreeing with different interpretations.
@@user-pn3mw7rx1s of course, that's what I mean by an artwork speaking for itself. When the artists don't provide an explanation for it, the audience is able to create their own meaning and feelings about it, and express them, which creates the vital element of communication between artist and spectator
@@user-pn3mw7rx1s But when pattern recognition has holes your explanation just doesn't hold up. If the machine even looked a little like a person or the movements were more violent or I don't know if it had ropes on top like a marionette the explanations would hold, now they just don't stand and it's just a bad work of art without any special technique and without tight internal aesthetics logic.
@@dimkilago2958 I didnt give any interpretation or analysis in my reply, but I dont see why the robot looking like a robot makes it less artistic, especially when all the interpretations presented in the video hinge on it looking very inhuman
As a rule I don't like contemporary art, the way I appreciate art is mostly aesthetic. That said, the idea that current art is somehow consumerist when the art of the past (what past?) is more meaningful seems anachronistic and arbitrary to me. All artistic production is in the divided between freespirit and comencial demand.
That movie synopsis just broke me. That is the most vile thing I have ever read. I don't think there is any artistic value in something that is that disgusting. Any themes or ideas in that movie seem like they would be lost in all that gore and sadism.
I understand the feeling from the segment alone! You should watch the video, it's an extremely bad art take. Also, I totally get (and agree) that many paintings are turned into commodities (John Berger wrote about how paintings are made commodifiable by their portability). I would need some good arguments to be convinced that Can't Help Myself is turned into a commodity considering its size, complicated installation and the fact that it isn't (and never was) for sale.
@@TheCanvasArtHistory well idk if this is a good argument and it might be more of a question to you but how do you coincide your desire for art to not be commodified while at the same time making content about it? Most people will only see this piece through other's content/lenses Doesn't it becomes a commodity once it is sold as an idea by others? What's the difference between the content you make and the content you critique? Sure you guys might have different takes on whether or not it's good or bad but both of you are partaking on the same fundamental practice of talking about something to someone else Sorry if this sounds mean or hateful as it is not my intention, just a question I've had in my mind for a while
@@TheCanvasArtHistory hey so I just finished the original video and I have some thoughts First, I really dislike how it blames captalism on those affected by it as opposed to those who create the situations that led to that, the video constantly edges on the revelation that "hey maybe art nowadays is bad because people aren't doing it out of their own passion and love for the medium but because they need to make ends meat or maintain their lavish lifestyle" but instead it blames consumers for becoming dependent on the products designed make them dependent, it's like watching a boss blaming a coworker for coming late despite the fact they couldn't sleep because of their abusive partner or blaming an opioid addict for their condition despite the fact they were prescribed those pills by a malicious doctor, it also doesn't acknowledge how captalism has changed art over the years blaming everything on "the transgressions" of modern culture Second, the video seems to (paradoxically) compare all art to a series of perspectives and viewpoints while at the same time only being one point of comparison (that one being the "good art" of the past), it's as if they looked up at the night sky, pointed at a random star they liked and proclaimed " this is the only good star left all other stars should begin to orbit around it, all stars that don't are bad stars" while never expanding or explaining why they choose that star specifically, why are the other stars worse and why makes a "good" star Third this one is a less poignant argument but I feel like it needs to be said, the video is genuinely just mean, like annoying kid from philosophy class mean, I get that this is subjective and not good criticism but that's the energy I felt throughout the video, it seems like it was made by a person that body shames obese people in order to make them thinner or tell artists their art sucks because it doesn't fit their standards when they just started to learn or insults everyone that doesn't do things the way they want to because it's "the wrong way", that's the type of person this video reminds me of, someone who uses the veneer of critic in order to insult everyone they don't like while shielding themselves from any disagreement, who puts random internet clips side by side to horrible tragedies in order to prove a point? Fourth I get what you meant at the start of the vid about the video not being entirely fascist, in my opinion the video is to fascism what those videos from 2016 about "men's rights, third wave feminsm, woke ideology" were to sexism and inceldom, like they haven't "taken the red pill" but it's definitely sizzling in their mouth and I don't know if they are going to spit it out
@therupoe after rewarching the video, I gotta say, feels bad, man. I'm not gonna stop watching their channel, but I will use this as a chance to be more critical of the creators I enjoy.
Feels like a cop-out to use chat from a live session to insert the word "fascist" when talking about another channel; "it wasn't me that asked, it was chat, I'm jUsT rEpEAtiNG it".
Check out my second channel!
UA-cam.com/@germinaal
I first saw this work a few years ago and interpreted it as a reflection of the human condition- kinda like sisyphus forever pushing the boulder up the hill- but in a more corrupted form, reflecting the reality of the working class under capitalism. Despite increased automation, we are working even more than we did centuries ago. There is also a growing sense of alienation from our labor. Most people don’t like their jobs yet are stuck because they fear losing everything. And the cost of living has skyrocketed, making it hard to even retire
You said this so well! It's kind of full circle too, in a way, bc all the predictions for the future said automation would give us time for more art & creative pursuits, meanwhile the creative stuff is being automated and we have to work ten times as hard for half the compensation. It takes an art piece like Can't Help Myself to encompass that feeling- which I think is the opposite of being "degenerate." It's just capturing the human condition in a nonhuman way bc our world is increasingly dependent on nonhuman things.
very well said!!
It's wild that they picked that piece to use as an example of degeneracy, maybe one of the easiest to interpret pieces of modern art. Both the popular and intended meanings are very easy to arrive at and resonate easily with most people. Normally these types pick something that's difficult to read meaning into, especially a meaning that's actually not that far from the intended one.
I watched CCs video when it went up and most of the comments were... concerned. The general consensus seemed to be we all kind of knew what "degeneracy" meant, or what it meant that he was saying it, but it was also amusing that the films he did show as "good" were in of themselves once considered degenerate (for God's sake, he's kidding himself if he thinks French New Wave wasn't once seen as trash).
Seeing it in action and thinking of the authoritarian interpretation struck me. The way it moved and danced was haunting, as if it was trying to draw attention away from the blood by putting on a little show. Like how propaganda draws attention with a song, a dance, a smile. Dont look at the blood, everything is fine.
I'm glad you made a video on this piece. I remember seeing this online years ago, now I work with these robots every day so that interpretation about empathy of needing the fluid to live changed after I learned they don't actually use hydraulic fluid to function.
The monotony of capitalism makes a lot more sense to me with this piece.
I do not think this is meaningless, it's stuck with me for a few years now.
Doesn't that kind of add to the piece? The fact people came up with a reason for it to be sweeping the blood when it didn't even have to
@@airplanes_aren.t_real Yeah it does actually. It's interesting how people humanize it like that.
@@SnackPackSilkens I meant more about how people will give a mythos to meaningless and sometimes harmful actions or habits in order to justify them, people were so distraught with the artwork that they gave it a more comprehensive interpretation in order to better accommodate their worldview
It's much less scary to think about a robot on the brink of death trying to sweep its own blood back to itself (which we sorta do ourselves considering most of us pass out if we stop breathing for more than 2 minutes) than to see the robot mimicking our meaningless and endless efforts without the illusion of a future reward
Imagine being an office worker or a nurse or factory worker or a teacher and seeing the robot doing what is fundamentally the same as them only without the veneer of a higher purpose
Just my interpretation
@@airplanes_aren.t_realbut this assumes that your personal interpretation of the work is the correct one, and that other people are somewhat actively misinterpreting the piece to avoid your more distressing interpretation, when neither your nor the popular interpretation is the intended by the artists, making both interpretations equally valid
@@jack_van_lent fair point, I didn't consider that
On an unrelated note - Question: Is Disco Elysium art? - Please send your 30,000 word essay to someone who hasn't heard of Disco Elysium.
To summarize my 30,000 word essay: yeah sure
CONCEPTUALISATION [Meduim:Successs] - Yes. This this is your chance. You, will show them what real art is
Disco Elysium is art because it shows anarchists as useless and communists as actually trying to bring about real change (just like in real life)
Yes
Is there a Disco option?
It felt really dramatic thinking the robot was actually bleeding to death. I felt betrayed by knowing it was all an illusion - the bleeding, that is.
But - it makes even more sense. It's not the saddest robot because it's struggling to keep itself from bleeding to death - it's the saddest robot because it was _made to think it had to work_ , to struggle because it was _made to think it was bleeding to death_ . It kept performing the task it was appointed to do _until it was worn out_ because it thought it was in danger.
It wasn't. It could have stopped, if it could but reprogram itself, if it knew it was an illusion
We can. We do. Why do we betray ourselves?
You can also look at it from a step back
The robot is doing something that doesnt help it, doesnt make it happy and will probably hurt him,
But he cant stop himself
Well, said.
Or the AI is programmed to act in a manner that is not consistent with ethics or human rights norms, but it can't make its own decisions. it can't help itself.
one word, fear. the age we are in seems to be running on fear, again.
@@DAYBROK3 society has always run on fear
I first saw this piece when I was a lot younger, and - from my memory, correct me if I’m wrong - it used to dance. It created joyful movements simply because it could - it didn’t actually help in its task, but was something it could “choose” to do. I remember that, when it started to slow down, it stopped dancing. It still had some erratic movements, but it stopped doing them just because it could; it became something more like a mechanical failure from constant repetition.
Make of that what you will, but I’m so glad you covered this piece. It has so many layers, far past what most who saw it know of. It’s a melancholic kind of beauty, really.
Wonderful video
As theoretical frameworks, i think deleuze's concept of microfascism is a must-know to think of current neofascist trends (similar to what you called a "fascist intent"). I also love guattari's aesthetical paradigm, which focuses on the radical process of subjective creation and not on art as an object ("is this art?" becomes meaningless). Hito Steyler texts are also a must to analyze contemporary art, especially its relations to digital media and technology (videoart, hacker-art, installations, amazing topics for videos btw)
Anyone using 'degenerate' or 'degeneracy' as earnest categories of criticism raises huge red flags for me. Their job then becomes to convince me how they are not fascist, because that's what I'm assuming at that point. Different tastes in art is fine, and criticizing art is also good. But 'degenerate' literally alludes to an idea of art - and the people making and partaking in this art - being misformed, ill, devolved to a 'lower' stage, 'subhuman'. That's not art criticism, that's dehumanizing rhetoric.
So, I don't think you ever have to defend a piece of art from allegations of 'degeneracy'. Rather, people using such terms should have to defend and explain themselves, since they are so clearly paying homage to the ideas inherent in fascism.
I think the only piece of art I would nominally consider that label to apply to would be that one graphic novel that was created by a murderer and referenced his own crimes. I would at least understand that being called "degenerate".
How anyone gets fascist from the word degenerate is beyond me. That sounds like a perspective that comes from post-modern collegiate nonsense. This is the literal definition.
Facism : political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
Seconded. Colossal red flag-its literal n@zi vocabulary.
@@LaydiNite to each their own
Well said. “Degenerate” is nothing more than a buzzword meant to prevent engagement with something. They talk so much about “artistic merit” because if you sit with something long enough, and are willing to ENGAGE with it, everything is capable of having artistic merit regardless of how simple or complicated the message communicated is.
Unrelated to the video, I'm a teen from Norway. I'm just getting into art, and I'm thinking about studying art history. I just wanted to thank you for introducing me to art.
I'm feeling pretty down for the time, and your videos have gotten me through a lot. It's nothing too serious (girl problems) but it's enough to have an impact. I don't want to rant, but thank you for making entertaining videos about things that can be so sad :)
I used to watch some of their videos bc Im a movie nerd, but some of them had a weird feeling and those kinds of videos seem to be becoming more common for them
I remember seeing some of their thumbnails and thinking
I think im too stupid or depressed to watch and fully understand what they are talking about, so i haven't really watched since
Yes, thank you. I had the same feeling. And because I listen when I get weird feelings, I stopped watching them.
they are pretty pretentious in retrospect, still they have good taste though
Not a big fan of modern art, generally speaking, but this piece is exceptional. Not only is it fascinating to watch the arm's various operations, but the ultimately futile, Sisyphus-like nature of its task has a timeless appeal.
I think that so - called modernists, particularly brutalists, are conservatives.
Contemporary art. No one makes Modern art. I feel if you would give contemporary art more time and not just search for what you hate; you would like it more. There is so much figurative artwork out there. Many that improve art styles of the past. We live in an era of pluralism of art. They have entire schools focused on older and more traditional ways of art. You can go out there and find cheaper artwork of younger artists. Artist that need support. Fvck the blue chip galleries and the elites. Give them no air. Go directly to the artist and give them oxygen to breathe.
@@cjwooper I know that this is very subjective and all, but do you have some examples? Some personal favourites or some pieces you think everyone should check out because they're just that good?
@@cjwooperwhat's the difference between modern and contemporary art?:o
@@crumbtember Modern art usually spans the early 20th century to the 1970s… though I think you can push the early roots back to latter half of the 19th century? Contemporary art is more from the 1960s until the present. People debate the exact dates of course. I’m not an expert, but roughly modern art breaks with representational, narrative-driven approaches of earlier movements. Contemporary art on the other hand rejects and critiques many of modern art’s preoccupations, eg. to do with rationality, objectivity, and universal truth.
No art is “degenerate”. You can dislike a piece, and even dislike an artist, and you can (and should!) criticize and examine the conditions and context under which different types of art are promoted and produced, but anyone earnestly using a term coined by the Nazis to describe art has forfeited their authority to analyze or criticize it at all.
I stumbled on this piece at the Venice biennale 2019 and ot fascinated me immediatly. It felt so sad and demoralizing watching the robot. I definetly prokected a lot of feeling on this object and it stuck in my mond
I feel as if those attempting to diagnose "modern art" in one big sweep of often rebranded old clichés probably dont realize the immensity of contemporary creative work. Never before have so many people had the means for expressing themselves, never mind the means of distribution - there are more artist in the world now than ever before. Will this result in banality? Sure. But we shouldnt blame the world for our own inability to find art that is personally meaningful. Just look deeper and if that dosent do the trick make it yourself there are no excuses. The world is not to blame for our lack of receptivity to the meaning within it.
Initially, when you mentioned human condition, i thought of mental illness (ocd, anxiety, depression, etc). I, also, thought of the stuff people have to do to survive that is put on them regardless if it is capitalism or not. It gets tiring but people cant help themselves if they want to survive. Diabetic individual have to check their sugars, endlessley is seems, so they can, endlessly, tale their medicine. So, I completely and insainly understand the monontony behind a task given to survive that seems to be like i cant help myself.
Great video on a really effective piece of art. Bridging the gap between classic art and contemporary is quite difficult. An incredible new painter that use classical style in a contemporary fashion is the young Rosalie Gamache who trained classically in Italy before taking the next steps. I can't wait to see her grow.
Just went to her website. Her newest series of works are great. Thanks for signal boosting someone so talented!
CC’s fashy turn was so disappointing. I really liked their older videos just talking about international film. Things didn’t start getting weird in their videos until COVID, though of course maybe they just used to hide it better
I think refusing to assign meaning to your own art work is in an act of resistance. For me, it highlights something we forget when asking what something means: something doesn't have to have a meaning, some higher purpose, to be worth experiencing? Yes, a meaningful life is important as a concept but in the world we live in, "meaningful life" has been turned into how much money someone makes and how many trips they can go on or people they can save. We've put a capitalistic value on even the experience of living. It is the same values that try to portray art as a meaningless medium. Not assigning a meaning to something is freedom, it is permission to live outside of what society defines as a life worth living. People also forget that the "life must have meaning" mantra has been used to devalue and end the lives of the disabled. The disabled are not useless or meaningless, but our lives should not have to serve a higher purpose to justify why we should be allowed to exist. I cannot think of a life more enriched and fulfilling than one that does not need to live up to a social ideal of being "useful" to be enjoyable. I'm not sure if I am completely making sense, but I hope it does not sound pretentious. I just know that letting go of my need to be someone who is put in the history books has allowed me to breathe for the first time and survive for myself rather than to please others, which sounds selfish but I feel there is a way to live life with care for others without making your life not your own.
I think your points were very well said. It's hard to not people please (especially since we have a natural tendency to do so) but overindulging in people pleasing ultimately makes us more miserable and even more so when it's something that we don't resonate with. I feel more at peace with myself when I can freely create but when I think of the expectation of being the best or being famous within the industry, I feel my sense of enjoyment being stripped from me
This reminds me of something. when I started studying art i went on a trip with a bunch class mates during the first term, it was a somewhat casual affair since most of us had already started our final paintings by then. I hadn't been to many galleries at that point so when we arrived I kinda spent some time just looking around, i cant remember all the paintings I saw, but what I can recall is the feeling of being surrounded by so much beauty. Some people were doing the same, looking around too while others had their sketch books out, transcribing and photographing as much they could. At some point, there was this girl in my class, we were talking and she looked puzzled and asked me why I wasnt making myself useful. I cant remember what I said but I never really forgot that interaction.
Although it was what I expected to do, I ended up not going to art school and decided against a career in commercial art. And strangely that moment is one that has really stayed with me because I remember feeling confused, I didnt know that I was supposed to be useful. Anyway, I still paint though and in my opinion I've gotten a lot better since then :)
Shawn, you have so raised the bar with this one. Although I'm certain there will be points in the future when I would love to debate with you, here I must say I am so very proud to support you. Brilliant.
Thats just great art; look at the many interpretations that you could ascribe to it. The piece links between history (classical and modern) and contemporary issues.
I was initially ready to dismiss this piece as not being art, but half through your video, I felt something akin to empathy towards the robot, thanks to the comparison to Sisyphus. Thank you for yet another thought-provoking video.
This video might have become my favourite in all youtube, could have said it louder but not clearer. A brilliant analysis, love this channel
Hi, thank you for the help with my remains project 3 months back. I passed with top marks and your channel really helped me out, you and art assignment are like my encyclopedia for art. Again thank you so much!!!
Dude, best video you've made, maybe the most important, idk.❤
Thank you so much!!!
Because I'm the true degenerate, my first I thought was: "Where's the health bar?"
before watching the video i want to share what i see when i see can't help myself. its not important or anything, but the piece always leaves me so impossibly emotional and i have to release my feelings on this art work somehow;
i dont think i ever heard about the hydraulic fluid story regarding can't help myself. in fact i dont think i ever heard about anything but the name of the piece and the videos of it cleaning in that room. and i still am devastated everytime i see it. but the fact that it is a robot that tries to clean up the mess, and year after year, the area where it is held gets dirtier and dirtier, speaks to something in me. if the robot hadnt been there, trying to clean up the red fluid, the room would have been cleaner. like the robot is trying to fix something broken but making it worse. another part of the piece that almoust makes me cry is the fact that the robot keeps on cleaning. it cant stop trying, even though said cleaning makes everything worse. so to me its a piece about not being able to let go and ruining things because of it.
Passive-Agressively teaching others who are wrong about the profundity of contemporary art.
I Love it!
Except contemporary art is not profound and this video does not help the claim either.
EDIT: Oh wow. Oh... Wow. I just rewatched the "Degeneracy" video and... Wow. Yeah. I take it back. The F-word is right up there.
I've never thought of TheCinemaCartography as fascist, but they do seem elitist from the point of view of, if they don't understand or just plain don't like something, they denigrate it. I find their video essays interesting form time-to-time but sometimes they posit wild inaccuracies (and for a long time they didn't allow comments on their videos as though their word was the only thing of worth). For example, they claimed 'Barry Lyndon' was entirely shot with natural light. Well, that ignores the fact that not only was it shot with artificial light, there's a couple of flubs in the film where you can see bloody great big lights outside of the window (see the restaurant scene). I think if they come across as fascist by devaluing contemporary art, it's not intentional; it's simply because they're overreaching. They simply don't understand it, and, as couple, I get the impression they've created a bit of an echo chamber for themselves.
I do think the fact the piece was misinterpreted by the public is kind of representative of a "failure" within the piece but not necessarily from the artists maybe from the public or both. Maybe the public lacked the culture and experience necessary to understand it as intended or maybe the intended meaning by the authors is too specific to apply to this piece. But what strikes me is that this piece is just wonderful in its execution and the "failure" is not fatal, maybe beneficial even. It makes you think and give you profound emotions when you see it first. I was thinking of self harm when I saw it at first, like the robot was representative of a vicious cycle of self harm specifically in a mental health context. Both the popular and artist ascribed meaning are very thought provoking too. I cannot help but find this piece astonishing and haunting and this to me makes it good art. It's installation art at the intersection between sculpture and choreography in a wayi didn't even know was possible.
Its really sad what happened with that channel, an antiquated and elitist View of Art that produces lofty and empty analyses
Great on you for sharing your thoughts, just hope they don't mute their comments again after this
people label things “degenerate” in order to avoid admitting they don’t have the capacity to understand it.
“IT’S OBSCENE” is just shorthand for “i’m a simple-minded dullard who lacks curiosity, intellect, empathy and imagination.”
Ye especially that a lot of modern art fails so badly at conveying any deeper message. It’s not about ,,you don’t understand” because more often than not an artist is a complete idiot. I am sick of all those that are trying to appear as more than they are. So posh
@@gurmidzykon q.e.d.
not trying to start any fights for the record... but no dude they meant the person labelling the art degenerate is the incurious person, not the artist. It's fine if you don't like modern art, but just don't pretend you have a handle on it and can declaratively say you KNOW that it is meaningless and the artist's full of shit and everyone's just jerking each other off, playing at being smart. A lot of people have genuine connections to a lot of modern and abstract works, and a lot of work does go towards making them-there's no need to spit on that, you can just say it doesn't inspire the same feelings in you as others and move on. @szymonbiedronka7895
it's worth noting too that degenerate and obscene in relation to art are words that invoke pretty specific, ugly histories, too. There's a great video by Jacob Geller called "Who's Afraid of Modern Art?" By Jacob Geller, the title is a play on 'Who's Afraid of Red, Yellow & Blue' a series of paintings he talks about that... it turns out, people were kind of afraid of! Enough to stab the paintings to death. I mean, that title is also a play on something else I'm forgetting, but... def check it out! It's really entertaining and informative, talks about some of this stuff.
peace
True, but also what if I decided, as an art piece, to take a shit in front of your house. Would you be a simple minded dullard to call it obscene?
We are all traped in this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death.
I've been a fan of The Cinema Cartography since their days as Channel Criswell and Art Regards. I still consider them one of my favorite UA-cam channels, but lately there videos have been a little, elitist so to say. I love how they fixate on the artistic values of cinema, something I try to do on my own channel that not a lot of movie related content on the platform focuses on. Yet they got some well deserved flack for their degeneracy video.
Rather than discuss what their subjective definition of degeneracy is or even the artistic merits of degeneracy (like a John Waters film) it came off more as an intellectualized boomer-rant about how art and culture suck now.
To me, it always felt like the effort to desperately keep yourself and your life together, and failing. Trying to hold in all the things you're struggling with and not being able to keep up the appearance of being ok.
I'm incredibly dissappointed by The Cinema Cartography which was my favorite channel on youtube. I'm so fucking mad that now they are just people who think they're better because they "look for excellence" in art. Pretentious, overly intellectual and boring in how they view art.
i'm in love with your videos about contemporary art
"We're In Hell" has also spoken about this piece in one of his videos
Unfortunately, he was accused of some very bad abuse and all of his former friends cut ties with him. I wouldn't recommend watching the video unless it's mirrored somewhere.
@@matthewbrunell413 wow havent heard about this. when was this?
This is just an incredible piece. I got to have three very distinct interpretations during your description:
1. Oh no, sad robot mirroring futility of life under capitalism
2. Oh, interesting, the artists that created this live under an authoritarian regime. I wonder what themes they will explore?
3. Oh... the movements seem sinister now, shaking terribly like a giant metal beast, lunging and slashing... oh...
I think when I first saw this piece, I cried. I saw it as an exact mirror of the human condition. I felt so bad for this machine, and still do.
It's a little disturbing in a way - to have it on display while it "bleeds out" and struggles to survive. People saunter by. Watch for a little bit, and move on.
I love this artwork and I'm glad you made a video on it ❤
I subscribed to Cinema Cartography before they uploaded that video, and I unsubscribed when they did. I have yet to see a video essay where the writer unironically uses that word and even makes an attempt at engaging with the art they're bitching about in good faith, or why such art movements come about.
Seeing it writhe in between those raking motions… it’s truly hard to see it as the mechanized arm of an authoritarian state. The way the piece is presented, the meaning is impossible to decipher without a guidebook or easily misinterpreted- clearly, as the internet has proven here. In that sense, I think Cinemacartography’s frustrations project better onto the medium of modern art rather than this piece itself in particular. This piece being unfairly targeted, because of the very things that make it a good piece of modern art- and perhaps, the very things they are frustrated about.
I thought it looked like a fun little dance tbh. It's also not easy to rule out that the popular interpretation became so largely because that interpretation was the 'guidebook' it was distributed with so to speak.
Lord have mercy on anyone who started this video stoned. Ya’ll gonna make me ugly cry watching that robot for damn near 10 minutes struggle for life
Yeah, anyone going around saying 'degeneracy' is a massive red flag, as other people have stated before. There's really only one type of person that becomes so attached to calling things degenerate, and they're certainly not admirable in the slightest. Having said that, thanks for the upload.
was trying to write a report on this instillation so i plan to quote this a few times. thank you!
That video made me really angry at the pseudo-deepness that fascists like to spit at people who are too ignorant to know it's all BS so I'm glad people are responding to it.
The cut to people talking in the gallery is inspired. Most likely to voice their opinions on the meaning they find in the piece.
It literally "sucks the beauty and joy out of life". I've watched this thing much too long already.
Bad call on the carographer's part to choose the single most touching wellknown artwork of the past decade as a background for their thesis...
the work to me seems more to do with our reaction to it than the thing itself. how we react tells more about us than some would like.
Could you make a video reflecting on cutism? I would be very intrigued to see it
Like most my original interpretation is one of the futility and banality of work under post-industrial capitalism. That said, the idea of the robot as the impersonalized apparatuses of the modern state trying to sweep up the evidence - as it grows more and more blatant to the gawping public - that the comforts of modern civilization, like the Guggenheim, are built over and in fact depend on the brutalization of countless people outside the confines of the state, is really gripping. Especially these days.
I see it as a display of the futile cruelty of borders. We always try to contain people, to put up walls and checkpoints, and as technology has improved we have made these borders even more efficient--but a little bit always gets through. The movement of people is never stopped, and the machine will always break down eventually.
Yes, Sisyphus was the first thing thing I thought about; although, in the Greek myth, the hill is too steep and he can't get it up to the top (if he were to actually do so, he could stop). Anthropomorphism comes in many forms. Draping our human emotions on an inanimate (though moving) object, is just another form of this. The robot is a mechanical device carrying out its programming. I can appreciate its Sisyphean efforts, but I do not feel sorry for it. I wouldn't have equated it to authoritarianism without the creators' statement. I am an old man & most of my life has been wasted by a psychological trap I was ensnared by in my youth. My fine motor controls (read my hands) are pretty much shot, so I no longer able to write or draw. Despite this, I still get up every day, practice the piano (4 months into it), read mostly (European Modernist) novels & esoteric works (currently Gurdjieff) & go to sleep where I can involve myself in lucid dreaming. While I may be looking forward to the sweet relief of death, I am not rushing towards it. Life, & its meaning, is what you make it. When life changes (or your understanding of it), then take that in stride & change as well.
it's worth noting that the paintings done by the masters would be broadly understood by the intended audience but also that we might have an easier time understanding them in general because when you look at a painting that had multiple meanings you're usually reading wikipedia or an article or a page in a book that goes ahead and explains the entire compositional prowess and symbolic meaning to you.
i think if you were to take alot of people and show them paintings without a name or description they probably wouldn't be able to give you much more meaning than "it's a greek myth" or "it's three guys and another guy with swords". i kind of suspect the people who complain about degenerate art would fall more on that side of the scale because i've talked to them and they don't tend to be that well read outside of the hits. granted that is anecdotal but i suspect it's a larger pattern because they usually fail to present any counter-point to modern art other than the really famous paintings. i hardly ever see anyone put forward leighton as an example, i wouldn't go for that personally but it would at least suggest to me that they have actually know a little bit about art.
Ooh beefy drama between my favorite art channels
Brilliant analysis. Thank you.
I don't think I could look at any work of man and not see in it, somewhere, a mirror. All acts of creation carry meaning and intentionality. Some are better at their communication than others, and some attempt to communicate ideas that I enjoy more than others, but there is always some place to find empathy with the creator. I don't know if the "degeneracy" arguments come from a perspective truly alien to my own or if they are made by people who don't fully understand (or simply don't wish to communicate directly) their own feelings.
Anyway, contemporary art looks cool and I like it. I like ideas, and I like seeing those ideas manifested.
The category "authoritarism" is very flawed. It was created to put nazism/fascism and communism under the same classification, two opposing ideologies, including in the sense they fought wars against one another. When the classification represent two different, opposing things, it is a bad scientific category. It has the added flaw of putting US and European ideologies as being neutral, normal or the bastion of liberty (the opposite of authoritarism). When it couldn't be farther from the truth. Not only the US is so undemocratic that there's no correlation between popular opinion and policy approval on legislation, US and Europe are and have been extremely authoritarian, specially outside its borders - imperialism. So authoritarianism is a very ideological term that has a little capability of explaining reality. For example, one reason China is "authoritarian" today, including its vigilance over thought, is because western powers are very good at orchastrating coups. Using all kind of anti-scientific and anti-progress tactics imaginable, like fake news, denying climate change and anti-vaxxers. Countries like Brazil, now Argentina, have received all forms of toxic ideology from western nations - people die because those people gather political powers, structures of social security are dismatled, etc. So authoritarian measures of countries like Cuba, North Korea, etc. are self defense mechanism against nations that the concept of "authoritarianism" does not consider "authoritarian" - because it used as an ideological term.
And just how technology can hide the true human, social, forces behind authoritarian systems of violence, the metaphor of Sisyphus' rock in our lives in late stage capitalism, hides the forces of late stage capitalism: the social form - capital in the privately owned means of production. If we wake up to find a rock every day, we need to ask who put that rock there and who's making it come tumbling down. In Sisyphus case it was Hades, the only way to end the eternal punishment is to leave the underworld. So the only way to remove our rocks is to fight to overcome capitalism, into a different mode of production not determined by capital, but by ourselves.
I know it's a robot but the way it moves strikes me as so... Sad. It makes me feel like it's in pain, like it's scooping the blood and it's back hurts from being bent down to the ground and it's stretching up to try and stop none existent muscles from hurting, the way it occasionally goes up and just spins around feeling like it's crying out and shaking a fist at the sky and at god. It hurts me to watch it, frankly. I imagine it as a woman, scrambling and crying and whaling in her misery. I love her, and it hurts do much to watch
Ironically as we have failed as human species we may transfer finding the meaning of life to AI's a new Sisyphus in creation
other channel that gives me fash vibes is a channel that goes by "Art Chad".
what is your 2nd channel? (this one rocks).
youtube.com/@germinaal! Looking forward to catch you there!
I would never intentionally make a generalization, such as 'all modern art is degenerate'. I do find the art market, as it exists today, offensive- it all feels so transactional - it's all about investment value. And I find people like Jeff Koons, and to some degree, Kaws, shallow and commercial. Then, God help us, there's Thomas Kinkade... If people genuinely love one of these people - cool. I find 'Can't Help Myself' to be an important piece, which you well-defended. I do have a real problem with censoring art, or dismissing all modern works as degenerate. I saw the CC episode, and many of those commenting on my response totally misunderstood, which was my fault, no doubt. However, art is something I take fairly seriously, and I've read several books and seen films that tell of the times art has been attacked by the public - or, the government. As just 'for instance'; I doubt many Germans are proud of the 'Entartete Kunst', or New Yorker's of Mayor Giuliani ordering the Brooklyn Museum to take Chris Oili's 'Holy Virgin Mary' down, or our recent bans on literature. Thanks you, for all these videos. What you have to say is important. :)
Can I know what the problem with Thomas kinkade is?
I'm not disregarding your opinion or anything...
Just curious
Thank you for being polite. :) All too often, when one voices an opinion online, some people become rude. So, I appreciate your well-mannered reply. I just think Kinkade's work is shallow and sentimental - and very, very 'kitsch'. It also seems extremely repetitive - as if it was all cranked-out in a factory, or something. But, this is simply my opinion. If people like him - terrific. Thanks again, and I wish you well. :)
I just watched the referenced video by The Cinema Cartography and I want to write a comment.
I do think that their video makes a point about superficiality, spectacle and contemporary art being easily to digest, which I somewhat do understand to a certain degree; but it also dismisses lots(!) of superficial historical art lol. I actually do think that Can't Help Myself definitely is not the most deep artwork out there, and it is quite a lot of spectacle and one can project various things into it, but it certainly produces interesting reactions and analyses, and it definitely isn't "degenerate".
The point that their video makes is not the best point or sth lol, but yeah. They seem to have a background in film, so maybe not the best subject position to talk about Can't Help Myself anyways, but idk.
They do explicitly make anti-capitalist points and I therefore definitely don't think that it comes from a point of fascism. (I also never had that impression when watching their previous videos. I would assume that in the genuine case of fascism, their content would be way different.) It also seems very remarkable to me that they called this video "d e g e n e r a c y", instead of "degeneracy", indicating a less serious tone. (On the other hand, this clashes with the serious tone of the video?) Still, especially as being German myself, the term "degenerate" definitely has nazi vibes to it, and it has a nazi history to it, and therefore one shouldn't use it, but I also think that discussions surrounding these terms might be particularly different in Germany with more caution regarding our history that I don't want to judge people from other countries for. Generally, weird title for any video.
I personally also don't think that this really really short clip of the Can't Help Myself robot within the video should be overanalyzed too much; when contextualized in the whole: some of the clips used in their video do match the voiceover, some don't, and I don't think that there is enough evidence to definitely indicate a matching audio and visual at this particular point, but still, I do get your argument and I am ambivalent about it.
Their video is a very short one and no in-depth discussion, not even referencing any academic literature (which for me would be the basis for judging the quality of a video essay). It's certainly not their best video, but I also don't think that it's facist or sth. A little bit of in-depth research certainly would have helped their video, and ironically would have actually fitted their argument against superficiality.
But anyways, interesting words in this very video here on the Can't Help Myself artwork :)
The UA-cam Channel We're In Hell also did a very interesting video about it.
Hey, I didnt know you did streams thats cool. On to the topic of the video, I watched a lot of Cinema Cartography back in the day and they do think they make hood videos on film. In their video, "everything is dying" Lewis, the male member if the channel, described his philosophy and political views as a combination of anarcho-primitivism and law and-order libertarianism which is where this reactionary tendency comes from. They also both believe art quality is objective which is probably why they both feel so strongly about the "decline of art and film". Its funny really before the degeneracy video they made a video on why video games should be considered art. Will check out your streams if i get that time. I may not always agree with your takes, but i certainly appreciate your perspective.
Degenerate? Whew. A sickening concept. For me, this piece is bursting with meanings and all refer to the human condition. I first thought of all the blood spilled as we variously murder our fellow beings. All the effort in the world will not clean up what we have done. Poor little robot, i.e. us.We are Sisyphus. A brilliant work of art, I say.
cool video, thank you for making this! :D
The unfortunate thing about Chinese rebels, is that many of them think the alternative is American style fascism
Heres my 2 cents its ok to be unsure, its ok to be scared, its ok to be confused. There is no objective meaning ergo you can keep searching and make your own meaning. Its both liberaring but terrifyling exhausting.
Calling someone a fascist because they point out obvious flaws and lacking's of modern art. How silly. You should be ashamed of yourself.
NO! Her name was not Mona Lisa, nor Gherrardini, and even less Del Giocondo, but Isabella of Aragona and Sforza, also known as Isabella of Milan. She was born a princess as she was the daughter of Alfonso II of Aragona, king of Naples, and Ippolita Sforza. She was made to marry her cousin Gian Galeazzo Sforza to strengthen ties between the kingdom of Naples and the Duchy of Milan. After the mysterious death of her young husband, she became emotionally close to Leonardo da Vinci who also lived at the court of Milan as he was in the service of the Duke of Milan and with whom, according to the studies of the German historian Maike Vogt-Lüerssen, they had several children together. My location of the landscape which, moreover, is not Italian would confirm that it would indeed be this princess who also had Spanish origins.
I've never been interested about art that has an OBVIOUS message, an agenda, especially something political. As an an abstract expressionist, I make art that is about paint and other types of media, and subject matter that can only be expressed by very skilled painters. This subject matter that is so difficult to find and then define. "can't help myself" is brilliant for the most part and I haven' seen it in person. To me it looks like it has some 'decorative embellishments" which is a big no-no for a piece like this. If it's goal is to survive by dragging fluid into itself, why would it perform/waste it's energy on silly movements? It makes so many clown movements. If I made this, it would be frantically scooping that oil into itself you would be sure it would it had minutes to live. 👉 LOOK at my work as an example. ty
thank you
I rather like this piece a lot, but my interpretation is a bit different than most I've heard (and it certainly isn't an example of degeneration, a fascistic dogwhistle to be sure). I don't see it at all as "the arm of the state," however I don't see it as representing us either. There are postures and movements this robotic arm that remind me very much of the 1914 Gertie the Dinosaur animation by Windsor McKay, where a cartoon dinosaur performs tricks for the audience, but also revels in some whimsical "dances." If it were attempting to contain its own blood I would expect something more frantic and constant rather than the playful twists and spins it acts out. Also the blood to me seems more motor oil than human blood and therefore, while the metaphor is certainly clear, the empathic connection isn't quite as direct as it ought to be if that were the point. So ultimately, and especially that it is behind glass, I have much empathy for it as a living thing, but the life it leads is one of performativity, like say a circus monkey etc. It's sad that it dies. Maybe it should have been set free.
The Sisyphusian task of searching for meaning in everything encountered in life is often a chore I avoid more and more as I get older. In an art gallery, reading the little card next to the art piece can be a starting point for understanding, but titles and labels sometimes obfuscate, and I am willing to accept the mystery and just move on without answers.
me too. i realised that sometimes reminiscing about some artwork and relating it to my own feelings and experiences leave a bigger impression on me than trying to rationalize a linear meaning to it. I realized i enjoyed a lot more things that way. that doesn't mean i consume mindlessly of course. i could only reach this stage after spending my teenage years trying to find meaning in everything.
i don't think things are inherently meaningless, i just think meaning is too overrated sometimes >_<
it might vary from person to person though. i personally am very materialistic, the type that finds comfort in knowing i am made of flesh and entropy, but i understand this isn't the case for all
If the robot is to be anthropomorphized, I must confess that I have never seen a person move similarly and talk about having no meaningful life.
Unrelated but the overwhelming majority of youtube content re: chinese art is limited to works about the authoritarian regime of CCP, or at least interpretations in relation to the CCP regime which is concerning. Or maybe these chinese artists just have nothing else to talk about. Or maybe nobody cares about anything else they have to talk about.
germinal beef? Germinal beef!
Glad you are assuming a left stance. One long standing left stance is realism. So besides making commercial movies in capitalism, just looking at for example a cellphone movie what is that realism? Obviously it has little exchange value but generally speaking looks real. This appearance belies that whatever the movie records the reality is not the same as the movie. Further, the home movie does look like what the person has seen. Yet what is lost is a bit difficult to wrap one’s head about. Even if the recording say is in a room and the recording is constructed to look like that space is that a realism? The answer reflects upon if I use language to tell you about what the tool did to reproduce the room space. So reproducing the room space is not a human knowing the space nor a human telling another human about the space. This then means a tool like a motion picture can’t address a basic sort of realism humans do by using conversation. We tend to give visual art like a movie a free pass about its realism. That realism falls short of conversation, and the question of that realism is unexplored.
Ce robot ne connait pas la survie, c'est probablement une symbolisation insensée de la robotisation industrielle
The Nazis detector worked again omg!
oh shi is this a war ? i havent even watched the vis yet but ohhhh shiiiii haha im messing around good vibes here only duhhh
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
God is not an easy answer. To follow Him is the hardest answer.
the clip from your livestream seems to imply that any use of the term "degenerate" to describe art is illegitimate/fascist. Is it never a legitimate assessment? is there no degerate art? by describing how "cant help myself" is not degenerate, you seem to imply that a piece of art *could* be; otherwise why not simply debunk it categorically?
what would it mean to you for a piece of art to be degenerate?
un oh away
my problem with this is that the meaning has been defined by critics and other people rather than the artists themselves. Also, I believe art should speak for itself and even if the artists explained it I wouldn't have liked it because they should've put that meaning into the artwork itself so that it's self explanatory. Further research should only be able to expand your appreciation for a work of art, not create it
He didnt say researching it is the only way to get meaning from this. The first interpretation he presented was one that people came up with that didnt fit what the artist intended, it was just what people got from it. It's fine when art has a clear message, but it's also fine when it lets you find your own message, and there's nothing wrong with people sharing and agreeing with different interpretations.
@@user-pn3mw7rx1s of course, that's what I mean by an artwork speaking for itself. When the artists don't provide an explanation for it, the audience is able to create their own meaning and feelings about it, and express them, which creates the vital element of communication between artist and spectator
@@antoinepetrov and Im saying that this piece can speak for itself, even with the artists explaining how it was originally intended
@@user-pn3mw7rx1s But when pattern recognition has holes your explanation just doesn't hold up. If the machine even looked a little like a person or the movements were more violent or I don't know if it had ropes on top like a marionette the explanations would hold, now they just don't stand and it's just a bad work of art without any special technique and without tight internal aesthetics logic.
@@dimkilago2958 I didnt give any interpretation or analysis in my reply, but I dont see why the robot looking like a robot makes it less artistic, especially when all the interpretations presented in the video hinge on it looking very inhuman
As a rule I don't like contemporary art, the way I appreciate art is mostly aesthetic.
That said, the idea that current art is somehow consumerist when the art of the past (what past?) is more meaningful seems anachronistic and arbitrary to me.
All artistic production is in the divided between freespirit and comencial demand.
Art, not stuff.
I'm happy with my smartphone, I have to pass the telegraph, thanks.
That robot is an addict, just like the rest of us.
That channel is SO pretentious
Saying something is degenate isnt facist. Yall overreacting
Saying its degenerate is overkill too. Keep that same energy
Sugar Pie Honey Bunch?
I have no problem labelling some art as degenerate. The Serbian Film is a prime example. This video piqued my interest in CinemaCartography
Dare I ask what this Serbian film is?
@@poenpotzu2865 I would recommend reading about it on wikipedia. It is the definition of degenerate, disgusting "art".
That movie synopsis just broke me. That is the most vile thing I have ever read. I don't think there is any artistic value in something that is that disgusting. Any themes or ideas in that movie seem like they would be lost in all that gore and sadism.
1:09 isn't this more so a critique of captalism as opposed to a bad art take?
I understand the feeling from the segment alone! You should watch the video, it's an extremely bad art take. Also, I totally get (and agree) that many paintings are turned into commodities (John Berger wrote about how paintings are made commodifiable by their portability). I would need some good arguments to be convinced that Can't Help Myself is turned into a commodity considering its size, complicated installation and the fact that it isn't (and never was) for sale.
@@TheCanvasArtHistory well idk if this is a good argument and it might be more of a question to you but how do you coincide your desire for art to not be commodified while at the same time making content about it? Most people will only see this piece through other's content/lenses
Doesn't it becomes a commodity once it is sold as an idea by others? What's the difference between the content you make and the content you critique? Sure you guys might have different takes on whether or not it's good or bad but both of you are partaking on the same fundamental practice of talking about something to someone else
Sorry if this sounds mean or hateful as it is not my intention, just a question I've had in my mind for a while
@@TheCanvasArtHistory hey so I just finished the original video and I have some thoughts
First, I really dislike how it blames captalism on those affected by it as opposed to those who create the situations that led to that, the video constantly edges on the revelation that "hey maybe art nowadays is bad because people aren't doing it out of their own passion and love for the medium but because they need to make ends meat or maintain their lavish lifestyle" but instead it blames consumers for becoming dependent on the products designed make them dependent, it's like watching a boss blaming a coworker for coming late despite the fact they couldn't sleep because of their abusive partner or blaming an opioid addict for their condition despite the fact they were prescribed those pills by a malicious doctor, it also doesn't acknowledge how captalism has changed art over the years blaming everything on "the transgressions" of modern culture
Second, the video seems to (paradoxically) compare all art to a series of perspectives and viewpoints while at the same time only being one point of comparison (that one being the "good art" of the past), it's as if they looked up at the night sky, pointed at a random star they liked and proclaimed " this is the only good star left all other stars should begin to orbit around it, all stars that don't are bad stars" while never expanding or explaining why they choose that star specifically, why are the other stars worse and why makes a "good" star
Third this one is a less poignant argument but I feel like it needs to be said, the video is genuinely just mean, like annoying kid from philosophy class mean, I get that this is subjective and not good criticism but that's the energy I felt throughout the video, it seems like it was made by a person that body shames obese people in order to make them thinner or tell artists their art sucks because it doesn't fit their standards when they just started to learn or insults everyone that doesn't do things the way they want to because it's "the wrong way", that's the type of person this video reminds me of, someone who uses the veneer of critic in order to insult everyone they don't like while shielding themselves from any disagreement, who puts random internet clips side by side to horrible tragedies in order to prove a point?
Fourth I get what you meant at the start of the vid about the video not being entirely fascist, in my opinion the video is to fascism what those videos from 2016 about "men's rights, third wave feminsm, woke ideology" were to sexism and inceldom, like they haven't "taken the red pill" but it's definitely sizzling in their mouth and I don't know if they are going to spit it out
As a cinima cartography fan id like to think they are using it as an example of good contemporary art
they’re not lol that channel is a mess. stopped watching them years ago
@therupoe after rewarching the video, I gotta say, feels bad, man.
I'm not gonna stop watching their channel, but I will use this as a chance to be more critical of the creators I enjoy.
@@Goofy476 a lesson we can all use
Feels like a cop-out to use chat from a live session to insert the word "fascist" when talking about another channel; "it wasn't me that asked, it was chat, I'm jUsT rEpEAtiNG it".