For the argument with the goats is it possible that the goats are a sacrifice to gods of the afterlife or the dead themselves to help their children get safely to the other side or feed them in the next world or the remains of funerary meals.
I'm amazed by the words you translated. I speak both Arabic and modern Hebrew, and all words you translated have the exact or derivative meaning in both current Arabic and Hebrew languages.
Could you do episode on thst new unearthed in 2022 Atapuerca jaw and zygomatic bone discovery dated to (1,400 mln ya.) Doesn't it revive Maria-Martinon Torres Theory)?
I would say that the situation would be the same, but with Rome razed to the ground and a large part of Europe conquered, if Scipio Africanus did not put an end to decades of defeat... The Barcas not only hated Rome, but also had as much ambition than their enemies, especially Hannibal.
30,000 Romans got physically manhandled and drowned in a lake by a smaller Carthaginian army. Nearly 90,000 Romans were massacred in the single greatest massacre in history to date to the point many Romans were found with their heads buried in the dirt in the after-math as if to save themselves from the horror. For 16 years Hannibal's army freely roamed Italy doing god knows what while multiple Roman armies outnumbering his kept their distance for fear of the Carthaginian bull. All this was repaid with what? Carthage burned itself to ground before Rome can get revenge and so Rome copes by spreading some salt on some ash covered ruins? Carthage beat and humiliated Rome and it was only thanks to Rome's soviet style infinite human wave attacks that it didn't succumb and it missed its chance for retribution so now all of its fanboys carry on the legacy of spreading salt on a dead civilization out of their reach.
You can achieve a lot more and be free of anxiety, worry and depression when you realize people, civilizations, have gone before you and they screwed things up too. Enjoy life today friends.
@@PeachysMom Are you seeing a therapist or taking meds? If you don't wanna say that's fair, and neither of those things are magic panaceas when you're not well.
This is why, if I could go back in time, to a parallel dimension where everything is the same, I would be grabbing books out of Carthage and Alexandria like my life depended on it
You'd have to go back pretty far to find much of very special value in Alexandria. Strabo, who was born in the 60s BC, already wrote about the Library of Alexandria as though it were something that had _once been claimed to have had_ a great collection (and it's worth noting that we have no contemporary sources making any such claim, just scholars claiming that it'd been super impressive some time in the past). If you try following the chain of sources for claims about things such as a "research institute" and so on, you will quickly find dead ends, usually in the Modern period. Luckily, libraries were dotted all around the Hellenistic world, so there should be plenty of material when you go time traveling!
I really love the illustrasions in your videos, the striped shadows making for a more text book feeling when watching. Ettore Mazza is truely a great artist.
So nice to see my name scroll by the tragically decapitated head of this video's protagonist, truly and unironically I tell you this is what I paid for.
God I hate automatic spell correction. It is the dumbest artificial intelligence there is and I am not sure how to stop it on kindle tablets. Obviously, I typed Hanno,, not banjo!
Greetings from Malta! I watched an online presentation about that particular site which was very fascinating. The site itself is so deep that the poor marine archeologists end up working 15-20 minutes per day at the most! Although they do it in 2 successive waves. Also, the place Milo talks about is called Xlendi, and it's pronounced Shh-Lendi, just as a minor comment.
Life was hard, in the Iron Age. Life was hard, pretty much everywhere, until the 1880s or so saw improvements in quality of life throughout the Western world, anyway. (The germ theory of disease, as well as the founding of modern dentistry, improved human lives in ways unimaginable to those who never experienced them.) It remained harder for women, children and people of color than for white men, through most of the 1970s. That started to change late in the decade, and by the early 1990s industrialization had started to take hold in places other than Western World, China and Japan.
Love it so much I'm watching it a second time already. I majored in Latin and Roman History in college and still learned a lot, and was entertained throughout. You make good videos man. Keep up the good work
To give some context to the sacrifice of children ,the greeks were surprised to find Egyptians raised all their children .Greeks and Roman's would leave unwanted children in the street to be taken for slavery or die .
I live near Málaga in S Spain. Founded, like Carthage, by the Phonecians as Malka. In the basement of the Picasso museum near the Cathedral are the foundations of Phonecian walls and later Roman ones together with tanks for making Garum.
there was a book about agriculture by Mago which was translated to greek and later to latin extracts of that survived in various latin texts by Roman writers on agriculture
That little speech from Plautus is famous for being the cornerstone of the theory that the Celtic languages were based on Phoenician, borrowed bit by bit over many centuries of the ancient tin trade. Sherlock Holmes was investigating this theory in The Adventure Of The Devil's Foot, so there just be something to it. There's a recent effort to reboot the theory in the book Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica by Theo Vennemann.
I wish that you had more videos. I find myself watching each one twice. The videos about stone tool making cultures and deep history and ancient cultures like this (and the ending of this one) are one thing, but the one about Stojan really nailed me.
We already know that without abortions and birth control there were many unwanted births and abandoned children at this point in history. Let alone still births and disabled or sickly babies etc. The hard reality of the time is that the mortality rate for newly born children was seriously high. I feel like Carthage just found a somewhat "practical" (I hate to use that word) solution for the already large numbers of children that died in any ancient society. A way to make their deaths a little more meaningful perhaps? From their perspective at least. Turning an unavoidable negative reality into a socially positive incentive? I don't see them sacrificing healthy strong desired children for personal gain, although I suspect some people might do that. There are plenty of humans today who will easily sacrifice the lives of others for their own.
It isn’t a proper sacrifice if you only offer a child who would be burdensome. For sure, it is possible that children who died were offered to the gods also, in much the same way that people today whose children die tend to say that Jesus took them home again (or some variation thereof, as even bereft atheists tend to give a similar rationale). But giving the gods a child who is otherwise healthy is actually giving up something, rather than pawning your sickly children off to them.
As a Hebrew speaker, I always find joy in hearing a languages similar to mine (since I think my neighbours' language is far more advanced, and hard for me to understand). A lot of the words in Phoenician sound a lot like Hebrew, if not identical: tophet literally means in Hebrew "inferno" (Dant's inferno? "Ha'Tophet" התופת); Mehashbim? sounds like an older version of accountant, "hashav" (מחשבים; חשב). Milkiuru is unclear to me, maybe a Phoenecian version of "malki-or" (מלכיאור) a very archaic name in Hebrew?
"Tophet" is the modern name given by archaeologists (in reference to the Bible where תֹּפֶת is sometimes used as a name for a non-Israelite sacrificial place), so it _is_ Hebrew. We don't know the Carthaginian name for these places.
@@mza3764 But Hebrew and Punic are closer to each other than to any other language, period. Closer even than to Aramaic and _much_ closer than Arabic. Punic would have been largely mutually intelligible with Classical Hebrew.
Dude this is one of the best videos you've ever made. How does it feel to know all of the surviving writings from hundreds of years of carthaginian society, amounts to only a tiny fraction of your own personal work?
If I can recommend a reading on the subject of the tophet, you can easily find on the internet the work of Bruno D'Andrea (in Italian) entitled "Bambini nel " limbo " : dati e proposte interpretative sui tofet fenici e punic".
possibly the grandest known example of a rare hand crafted traditional artisan Milo spoon mike ever to be recorded... loved it! - Must be seen to be believed! 🏆
Stefan added a unique perspective on Atuns video about youtubers. It's great to see collaborations come together with other youtubers that make history fun and enjoyable to digest.
it’s also possible that animals were sacrificed as part of funerary rites or remembrance after burial of a child and also buried alongside (or “for”) the children, but it’s unlikely we’ll ever know unless more literary or perhaps forensic archaeology emerges
The moment I see what was to be the subject of this video I thought that I was going to enjoy it. But the moment I've seen this guy remembering us how insignificant our existence are I give my thumbs up. I didn't knew who Atun Shei was, definitely I'm going to know now xD
The Punic text in Poenulus is so heavily corrupted, most of it undecipherable. The language was close enough to Phoenician/Hebrew and other Semitic languages to have been read with ease.
Great video and very entertaining! I do want to add something to the infanticide, which you glossed over quite quickly for such a controversial topic. I agree with oy oy Emine’s answer, further down. The debate about infanticide in ancient Carthage is still going on and there are scholars taking sides. The ones who think it did happen, refer to the Tophet and Greek and Roman sources (Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch, Tertullian, Orosius and Philo), but only the ones that criticize the infanticide and are also all enemies of the Carthaginians or the Phoenicians. I’ve read that some people here have also referred to the bible, but they always fail to mention that the passage they are referring to is where the Hebrews criticize the other locals because they have not converted to Judaism and still worship multiple gods, that’s also when they mention the infanticide. Every mentioned source about the infanticide is preceded by negative commentaries on the Carthaginians or Phoenicians, never even a neutral one. (for the people interested I will add a part with the sources that mention it and also a few scholars who are pro-Carthage infanticide. I add this because I think it’s important but I know some people would rather get to the point. Also, the chance this message is read is quite small, so for the ones who do want to read the comment it might bore them a bit?) They also ignore the sources of Virgil in the Aeneid, he describes a special department in the underworld in Carthaginian religion that is destined for babies. The most important part about this is that he does not refer to any human action as the cause of their death, he even describes it as the babies being torn away from the bosoms (Aeneid, 6th Book, 426-429, T.C. Williams translation). The inscriptions on the Tophet try to place the souls of the departed children in the care of the goddess Tanit and her husband Ba’al Hammon. Tanit is the mother goddess, so it seems logical for parents that have lost their child to give it to a divine mother that will take care of it. The Carthaginians also had a concept of the soul, so they are offering the soul (that isn’t dead) to the goddess to take care off. Research has been done on the remains found in the Tophet by the Department of Phoenician-Punic Archaeology at Universita' di Sassari by Pierro Bartolini. Most remains are of stillborn children. There are a few children that have a higher age (5), although few in number. They think these children passed away before doing the initiation ritual (like a baptism), which is logical since there was a lot of child mortality in ancient times. There probably was a ritual like this, the stories around Hannibal tell of him swearing an oath to hate Rome in a Carhtaginian temple. Although not an actual initiation ritual it might as well have been a follow up ritual, that has been misinterpreted by the Romans, like a communion or bar mitzvah. The most likely explanation is: “an open-air site, accessible to all who cared to visit the place, was a sacred sanctuary presided over by Ba'al Hammon and his consort Tanit. The human remains found in the urns buried in the Tophet were of children recalled to the presence of the gods; that is why they were buried in the sanctuary. To this sanctuary came grieving parents, who gave their children back to Ba'al Hammon and Tanit. Sometimes the parents would offer animal sacrifices to the gods to solicit their favor. Then they had funeral stelae carved and inscribed with vows, along with the poignant request that the divine couple grant them further offspring.” (Quoted from professor M'hamed Hassine Fantar). Similar sites have been found among the Greeks according to archeologist Sabatino Moscati. Other academics who share this view are: Michel Gras, Pierre Rouillard, Javier Teixidor. They wrote a very interesting work on Phoenician culture called: L'univers phénicien. It’s a bit dated, it’s from 1989, but the excavations seem to agree with their work. One of the sources often referred to is Diodorus’ Library of History 20.6- 7, where he describes a scene which resembles the story of the bronze bull built for the Sicilian tyrant Phalaris. Diodorus was from Sicily itself and it’s very likely he confused these two. Diodorus is most of the time seen as someone who wrote down gossip, more than facts. He would be the equivalent of a modern gossip magazine about celebrities. More reliable sources like Polybius or Livy do not mention child sacrifice in Carthage, even though both wrote about Carthage. Polybius would’ve been an amazing source since he fought against Carthage and actually “visited” (in term of war) the city, alongside Scipio in 146 B.C. He probably wasn’t too fond of the Carthaginians, but still does not slander them with accusations like this. One could say that “it was too well known at that time that the Carthaginians sacrificed their children to mention, since Polybius expected people to know that”. That’s a possibility, but I doubt it since this argument did not stop gossip later. It was probably the same story as the Christian monks in the middle-ages discrediting the Vikings as monstrous savages. Livy lived during the same time period as Diodorus and was well informed about Carthage, but did not have any love for the city. He didn’t mention such practices either. Now, the other sources speak from a hate or enemy perspective: Tertulian was a Christian author in Carthage that just like the Hebrews towards the Phoenicians loathed them for not worshipping one god. Tertulian is also very known for his anti-Jewish De Adversus Iudaeos and believing that women are a gateway for the devil. The Carthaginian religion and traditions being of Phoenician descent (and a reference also to the fall of Samaria where similar gods were worshipped) and having a major mother goddess as well as a female founder, probably made up his mind about the ancient Carthaginians. Orosius is also a Christian and who lived long after the fall of Carthage. Philo was a Jewish writer from Alexandria. These two were both raised, as was Tertulian, in areas the Romans had taken over and completely assimilated into Roman culture and thought. It’s very likely they just copied the gossip from Plutarch or Diodorus. Plutarch wrote about the infanticide in his Moralia, where he mentoins that even the childless Carthaginians sacrifice children by buying them and slicing their necks. Which begs the question why they just wouldn't buy children for every sacrifice, because apparently it was an option. Plutarch being of Greek origin and later a Roman citizen who never met or came into contact with anything remotely Carthaginian or Phoenician, seems to also have just written down gossip or things he heard in the street. Plutarch also wrote the biography of Cato, you might remember him as the guy that said that Carthage has to be destroyed. Off all the sources the pro-Carthaginian infaticide scholars use, I would say Plutarch is the most credible one, although Carthage does not seem to be one of his main interests or fields of expertise. (nothing against Plutarch by the way, I kind of like him, he was vegetarian and had certain references to reincarnation, which I think is very unique). The pro-scholars for the ones interested: Lawrence E. Stager, Joseph A. Greene and Josephine Quinn. P.s. This is not my native language so please excuse the spelling mistakes.
There's also some additional dialogue in Punic after those lines in Poenulus. It's worth noting that Punic's closest living relative is.. well, Hebrew.
I bet in the future there will be internet archaeologists who dig through archived webpages and comment sections to try and get a more clear picture of society today. Hopefully they will be able to see through all the cynical comments, trolls, and conspiracy theories. And if the internet continues for 2000 years then people in the future will have a much better idea of what the present day is like than what we currently know about 2000 years ago.
Sparta literally sacrificed their own children and we accept that, perhaps not sacrifice in the sense of offering for a god, but if they found deformities, it is said they simply chucked them off a cliff. Infanticide was definitely a thing in Sparta. Also, Romans in general have been recorded as abandoning their babies on the sides of roads if they didn't want it. And people have trouble believing Carthaginians did similar things to their children?
The Sparta thing may have been a myth. Kaiadas, the cliff the babies were supposedly thrown off, has not been found. Neither has a cliff with baby skelletons been found. Source: I am Greek.
Hello, I am a huge fan of your channel!!! Definitely the best channel for amateur archaeology on UA-cam. I am actually a girl lol this isn't my name. I want to say, irs def possible that they were sacrificing children. It's worth mentioning that in the Greek baby wells, there were also dogs. Maybe something to that. OR Bear in mind that we do not know anything about Carthage from its actual people. Only from their enemies or rivals. That should be wholly considered. And Christians are even less reliable, especially where Baal is concerned. Its possible that they were offering the soul of their dead child when they died. The translation could also be off. We just dont know enough about it. I'd say if the bones were looked at and any average COD can be understood, then we may have a better answer. Human sacrifice was so rare in the ancient world . And even if it wasn't, who are we to say it was wrong? Morality is subjective.
Was Punic a Semitic language? Because I am Hebrew speaker and some of the parallels are quite remarkable. Like, "rab mahanet" kinda sounds like Hebrew words "rav" and "mahanot", which could be translated as "the head of the camps". Or "ham" literary meaning "the people", "ha am" in Hebrew as well. Or "mehashbim" being somewhat close to the Hebrew word for counting, "mehashev". Fascinating stuff.
You are the best, Stefan Milo! Wait a minute. Now I sound like the comments on youtube I hate. Just meaningless "likes" and "likes comment", without wisdom. I love you, Stefan Milo. I love the consept of your films. I am from Norway. Parden my lack of english correct spelling.
All throughout human history human sacrifice has been ubiquitous. We do it today but we don't view it as such -- We call it capital punishment--the death penalty. The way contemporary America views the death penalty is probably similar to how past civilizations viewed what we call "human sacrifice." It was a normal function of their societies. We've been evolving away from it for thousands of years to the point now where we have faint remnants of it. The christian Jesus story is a human sacrifice allegory--Their claim is that Jesus' sacrificial death means we don't have to kill more people for god. It all goes way back to when predator animals would cull weak and slower members of the herds ( including humans). Once the predator finished it's hunt and had eaten, every one was safe--for awhile. The person captured and eaten by the predator was the price we paid for safety. Humans probably realized they could avoid the random terror of predator attacks by sacrificing one of the tribe--putting some one out in the open for an easy kill. All this evolved into all the bullshit religious beliefs we have today.
4:35 Polaris was not the North Star at the time, because of the precession of the Earth's axis. The Phoenician and Carthaginian's typically used the entire constellation of Ursa Minor (Little Dipper) to find North at night. If a single star is referenced in the original material, than it would be probably Pherkad.
Check out History Time's vid here:
ua-cam.com/video/-p8OZz5KJoo/v-deo.html
& The Histocrat's here:
ua-cam.com/video/IcDRHhYVJSo/v-deo.html
Great Video man! What an underrated channel you have
For the argument with the goats is it possible that the goats are a sacrifice to gods of the afterlife or the dead themselves to help their children get safely to the other side or feed them in the next world or the remains of funerary meals.
Yes but what about his kids I want more
I'm amazed by the words you translated. I speak both Arabic and modern Hebrew, and all words you translated have the exact or derivative meaning in both current Arabic and Hebrew languages.
Could you do episode on thst new unearthed in 2022 Atapuerca jaw and zygomatic bone discovery dated to (1,400 mln ya.) Doesn't it revive Maria-Martinon Torres Theory)?
Goddamnit Urumilki. You had one job
I am reading this comment with a dreamy Aussie accent.
Pete Kelly is british
Compared to your normal content this is current events.
What do you mean
@FilthyDank Wasteman the 11th what do you mean by what do you mean responding to my what do you mean asking the guy above what do you mean?
😂😂
Frfr
I love this video and all of his content. This was just the first video of his that I saw that covered history that wasn't 15,000 years ago or older.
Carthage: "We have a rich and long his..."
Rome" *NOOOOOO* "
Lol romes like, carthage? You mean, dismantled stone by stone and the earth covered with salt? You talkin bout salt?
@@Bakarost Delenda est carthago
I would say that the situation would be the same, but with Rome razed to the ground and a large part of Europe conquered, if Scipio Africanus did not put an end to decades of defeat... The Barcas not only hated Rome, but also had as much ambition than their enemies, especially Hannibal.
30,000 Romans got physically manhandled and drowned in a lake by a smaller Carthaginian army. Nearly 90,000 Romans were massacred in the single greatest massacre in history to date to the point many Romans were found with their heads buried in the dirt in the after-math as if to save themselves from the horror. For 16 years Hannibal's army freely roamed Italy doing god knows what while multiple Roman armies outnumbering his kept their distance for fear of the Carthaginian bull. All this was repaid with what? Carthage burned itself to ground before Rome can get revenge and so Rome copes by spreading some salt on some ash covered ruins? Carthage beat and humiliated Rome and it was only thanks to Rome's soviet style infinite human wave attacks that it didn't succumb and it missed its chance for retribution so now all of its fanboys carry on the legacy of spreading salt on a dead civilization out of their reach.
Funny how people here make fun of eraditacion of Carthage today, as if generations later same thing won't be done to us.
You can achieve a lot more and be free of anxiety, worry and depression when you realize people, civilizations, have gone before you and they screwed things up too. Enjoy life today friends.
And as long as there are more of us, it'll keep on keeping on.
Words of wisdom
Tell that to my serotonin receptors
@@PeachysMom Are you seeing a therapist or taking meds? If you don't wanna say that's fair, and neither of those things are magic panaceas when you're not well.
I don't mind making a mess. The problem is having to live with the results.
Well I was going to be happy about this collab finally coming to fruition but after Atun Shei's cameo I'd rather go stare at a wall.
Did not expect to see Atun-Shei Films make a cameo haha. His bizarre-dead pan humor always gets me and he has great history on his channel
Historian UA-camrs are like famous comedians: they’re all in cahoots with each other
This is why, if I could go back in time, to a parallel dimension where everything is the same, I would be grabbing books out of Carthage and Alexandria like my life depended on it
Also very few Etruscan texts survived.
@@EnginAtik yeah some of them, and if had all the time in the world I’d probably go learn Gaulish and record their beliefs and culture as well
Unfortunately in that dimension every single line in every single book translates to "F is for friends who do stuff together, u is for you and me..."
You'd have to go back pretty far to find much of very special value in Alexandria. Strabo, who was born in the 60s BC, already wrote about the Library of Alexandria as though it were something that had _once been claimed to have had_ a great collection (and it's worth noting that we have no contemporary sources making any such claim, just scholars claiming that it'd been super impressive some time in the past). If you try following the chain of sources for claims about things such as a "research institute" and so on, you will quickly find dead ends, usually in the Modern period. Luckily, libraries were dotted all around the Hellenistic world, so there should be plenty of material when you go time traveling!
The spoon mic is OP now
I say he should 3D print a big white spoon.
@@naciremasti this one? www.thingiverse.com/thing:4540530
IKR?!?
He also looks so tired... Wonder if baby is teething 😓
Trading the ladle, ey
I really love the illustrasions in your videos, the striped shadows making for a more text book feeling when watching. Ettore Mazza is truely a great artist.
He is amazing, hope he publishes an art book
I, too, have always enjoyed the artwork. You've gotta good eye.
So nice to see my name scroll by the tragically decapitated head of this video's protagonist, truly and unironically I tell you this is what I paid for.
Your contribution the mizrehim is duly noted and appreciated.
You gotta do a video about Ea-nasir, ancient Akkadian copper merchant who is the subject of the "Oldest Complaint Letter in the World"
Pretty incredible to think that the Phoenicians sometimes sailed as far as the Congo delta
And possibly even to the Americas....
Herodotus says they sailed all the way around Africa from the Red Sea to the Pillars of Hercules!
@@d.c.8828 Zero evidence for that
Felipe - read up on Banjo the Navigator.
God I hate automatic spell correction. It is the dumbest artificial intelligence there is and I am not sure how to stop it on kindle tablets. Obviously, I typed Hanno,, not banjo!
Carthage my hometown in northern Tunis.. the best place to be in the whole country
I can only imagine what it would be like to come from a city with such a long full rich history :-) Sounds amazing, I hope to visit one day
Been there, the most fragrant city I’ve ever lived in…and by far the friendliest!
@@TomDavisMD aww am glad to hear that ❤❤
Just make sure to book your trip there when Italys fleet is in home harbours and their armed forces hasn't stock piled salt. ^^
I see you upgraded your spoon mic, it sounds nice
i'm always so happy when i see you've uploaded. have a good day friendo
@Deniz Metin T. NOT the vibe i was going for lol. Great movie though
"Father! What do you mean, 'If Uncle hadn't returned, you would have sacrificed me!'"
Greetings from Malta!
I watched an online presentation about that particular site which was very fascinating. The site itself is so deep that the poor marine archeologists end up working 15-20 minutes per day at the most! Although they do it in 2 successive waves.
Also, the place Milo talks about is called Xlendi, and it's pronounced Shh-Lendi, just as a minor comment.
Wow. Malta. First time seeing a comment from there. Uh, bongiorno? 😬👍🏻
@@kenanacamporabonġu :)
the way you ended this mans career was cold bruh... damn
Life was hard, in the Iron Age.
Life was hard, pretty much everywhere, until the 1880s or so saw improvements in quality of life throughout the Western world, anyway.
(The germ theory of disease, as well as the founding of modern dentistry, improved human lives in ways unimaginable to those who never experienced them.)
It remained harder for women, children and people of color than for white men, through most of the 1970s.
That started to change late in the decade, and by the early 1990s industrialization had started to take hold in places other than Western World, China and Japan.
@@unclejoe7466 Yeah. Sorry about that. Sometimes that just... slips out.
@@unclejoe7466 one would say its "the march of history"
Love it so much I'm watching it a second time already. I majored in Latin and Roman History in college and still learned a lot, and was entertained throughout. You make good videos man. Keep up the good work
To give some context to the sacrifice of children ,the greeks were surprised to find Egyptians raised all their children .Greeks and Roman's would leave unwanted children in the street to be taken for slavery or die .
I live near Málaga in S Spain. Founded, like Carthage, by the Phonecians as Malka.
In the basement of the Picasso museum near the Cathedral are the foundations of Phonecian walls and later Roman ones together with tanks for making Garum.
Man these videos just get qualityer and qualityer, amazing job!
Carthaginian: Regarding this pandemic... does anybody have spare children to sacrifice?
Also: cheap olives anyone?
Sounds about right
there was a book about agriculture by Mago which was translated to greek and later to latin extracts of that survived in various latin texts by Roman writers on agriculture
As of March 25, 2023, a _Fall of Civilizations_ episode on the Phoenicians is coming soon. :-)
The Atun-Shei Films reference made my day
Can you feature more father cameos? I find his insight comforting.
Ettore Mazza's illustrations are the finest!
I am sustained by the spoon mic.
Loving the spoon mic upgrade. Merry Christmas and happy New Years!
That little speech from Plautus is famous for being the cornerstone of the theory that the Celtic languages were based on Phoenician, borrowed bit by bit over many centuries of the ancient tin trade. Sherlock Holmes was investigating this theory in The Adventure Of The Devil's Foot, so there just be something to it. There's a recent effort to reboot the theory in the book Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica by Theo Vennemann.
Urumilki, best character of the story
Always love a good Atun Shei cameo!
What is life I feel so small
I wish that you had more videos. I find myself watching each one twice. The videos about stone tool making cultures and deep history and ancient cultures like this (and the ending of this one) are one thing, but the one about Stojan really nailed me.
Humorous existential angst...
Freaking hilarious and educational!
Another gem from Milo
We already know that without abortions and birth control there were many unwanted births and abandoned children at this point in history. Let alone still births and disabled or sickly babies etc. The hard reality of the time is that the mortality rate for newly born children was seriously high. I feel like Carthage just found a somewhat "practical" (I hate to use that word) solution for the already large numbers of children that died in any ancient society. A way to make their deaths a little more meaningful perhaps? From their perspective at least. Turning an unavoidable negative reality into a socially positive incentive? I don't see them sacrificing healthy strong desired children for personal gain, although I suspect some people might do that. There are plenty of humans today who will easily sacrifice the lives of others for their own.
Plenty of humans today who will sacrifice the lives of others for their own benefit.
That's true, and doesn't abortion make that point most forcefully
"I feel like"
It isn’t a proper sacrifice if you only offer a child who would be burdensome. For sure, it is possible that children who died were offered to the gods also, in much the same way that people today whose children die tend to say that Jesus took them home again (or some variation thereof, as even bereft atheists tend to give a similar rationale). But giving the gods a child who is otherwise healthy is actually giving up something, rather than pawning your sickly children off to them.
As a Hebrew speaker, I always find joy in hearing a languages similar to mine (since I think my neighbours' language is far more advanced, and hard for me to understand). A lot of the words in Phoenician sound a lot like Hebrew, if not identical: tophet literally means in Hebrew "inferno" (Dant's inferno? "Ha'Tophet" התופת); Mehashbim? sounds like an older version of accountant, "hashav" (מחשבים; חשב). Milkiuru is unclear to me, maybe a Phoenecian version of "malki-or" (מלכיאור) a very archaic name in Hebrew?
"Tophet" is the modern name given by archaeologists (in reference to the Bible where תֹּפֶת is sometimes used as a name for a non-Israelite sacrificial place), so it _is_ Hebrew. We don't know the Carthaginian name for these places.
love to my hebrew neighbors, from Lebanon
Neither you nor your people are Phoenician. DOn't even try it.
of course you could find similarities, hebrew arabic and phoenician are not very far from each other
@@mza3764 But Hebrew and Punic are closer to each other than to any other language, period. Closer even than to Aramaic and _much_ closer than Arabic. Punic would have been largely mutually intelligible with Classical Hebrew.
Dude this is one of the best videos you've ever made.
How does it feel to know all of the surviving writings from hundreds of years of carthaginian society, amounts to only a tiny fraction of your own personal work?
Atun-shei plays a great drunk nihilist
Another great video!! Cant get enough of your content! Love your work man!!
RIP Spoon Mic
Hello, Mic Spoon.
If I can recommend a reading on the subject of the tophet, you can easily find on the internet the work of Bruno D'Andrea (in Italian) entitled "Bambini nel " limbo " : dati e proposte interpretative sui tofet fenici e punic".
1:02 Hollywood must make this a movie with Liam Neeson as Hanno.
I know its understated,( probably because your British), but the humour is perfect man, reminds me of some of my best teachers
What a great collaboration! Really wonderful work all around.
The ending was gold
Killed for his exquisite ladles no doubt.
He quit while he was ahead.
possibly the grandest known example of a rare hand crafted traditional artisan Milo spoon mike ever to be recorded... loved it!
- Must be seen to be believed! 🏆
A masterpiece ! Thank you for your videos Stephen !
Loving the Mic Spoon...as well as the well researched and facilating insight into Cathage.
_Voices of the Past_ crossover *and* _Atun-Shei!_
Glad I stumbled onto this channel and Subscribed.
Great video but I wasn't prepared for Atun-shei's dramatic reading of that damn voice in my head.
Stefan added a unique perspective on Atuns video about youtubers. It's great to see collaborations come together with other youtubers that make history fun and enjoyable to digest.
it’s also possible that animals were sacrificed as part of funerary rites or remembrance after burial of a child and also buried alongside (or “for”) the children, but it’s unlikely we’ll ever know unless more literary or perhaps forensic archaeology emerges
I just found this channel and I have to say that I love the artwork
"I won't sink into depression just yet."
That's the spirit!
That ending was a fine compliment to Anton-Shiei's earlier cameo
The moment I see what was to be the subject of this video I thought that I was going to enjoy it. But the moment I've seen this guy remembering us how insignificant our existence are I give my thumbs up. I didn't knew who Atun Shei was, definitely I'm going to know now xD
He's gotta pretty amazing channel.
Your videos just get better and better
The Punic text in Poenulus is so heavily corrupted, most of it undecipherable. The language was close enough to Phoenician/Hebrew and other Semitic languages to have been read with ease.
Great video and very entertaining! I do want to add something to the infanticide, which you glossed over quite quickly for such a controversial topic. I agree with oy oy Emine’s answer, further down.
The debate about infanticide in ancient Carthage is still going on and there are scholars taking sides. The ones who think it did happen, refer to the Tophet and Greek and Roman sources (Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch, Tertullian, Orosius and Philo), but only the ones that criticize the infanticide and are also all enemies of the Carthaginians or the Phoenicians. I’ve read that some people here have also referred to the bible, but they always fail to mention that the passage they are referring to is where the Hebrews criticize the other locals because they have not converted to Judaism and still worship multiple gods, that’s also when they mention the infanticide. Every mentioned source about the infanticide is preceded by negative commentaries on the Carthaginians or Phoenicians, never even a neutral one. (for the people interested I will add a part with the sources that mention it and also a few scholars who are pro-Carthage infanticide. I add this because I think it’s important but I know some people would rather get to the point. Also, the chance this message is read is quite small, so for the ones who do want to read the comment it might bore them a bit?)
They also ignore the sources of Virgil in the Aeneid, he describes a special department in the underworld in Carthaginian religion that is destined for babies. The most important part about this is that he does not refer to any human action as the cause of their death, he even describes it as the babies being torn away from the bosoms (Aeneid, 6th Book, 426-429, T.C. Williams translation). The inscriptions on the Tophet try to place the souls of the departed children in the care of the goddess Tanit and her husband Ba’al Hammon. Tanit is the mother goddess, so it seems logical for parents that have lost their child to give it to a divine mother that will take care of it. The Carthaginians also had a concept of the soul, so they are offering the soul (that isn’t dead) to the goddess to take care off. Research has been done on the remains found in the Tophet by the Department of Phoenician-Punic Archaeology at Universita' di Sassari by Pierro Bartolini. Most remains are of stillborn children. There are a few children that have a higher age (5), although few in number. They think these children passed away before doing the initiation ritual (like a baptism), which is logical since there was a lot of child mortality in ancient times. There probably was a ritual like this, the stories around Hannibal tell of him swearing an oath to hate Rome in a Carhtaginian temple. Although not an actual initiation ritual it might as well have been a follow up ritual, that has been misinterpreted by the Romans, like a communion or bar mitzvah. The most likely explanation is: “an open-air site, accessible to all who cared to visit the place, was a sacred sanctuary presided over by Ba'al Hammon and his consort Tanit. The human remains found in the urns buried in the Tophet were of children recalled to the presence of the gods; that is why they were buried in the sanctuary. To this sanctuary came grieving parents, who gave their children back to Ba'al Hammon and Tanit. Sometimes the parents would offer animal sacrifices to the gods to solicit their favor. Then they had funeral stelae carved and inscribed with vows, along with the poignant request that the divine couple grant them further offspring.” (Quoted from professor M'hamed Hassine Fantar). Similar sites have been found among the Greeks according to archeologist Sabatino Moscati. Other academics who share this view are: Michel Gras, Pierre Rouillard, Javier Teixidor. They wrote a very interesting work on Phoenician culture called: L'univers phénicien. It’s a bit dated, it’s from 1989, but the excavations seem to agree with their work.
One of the sources often referred to is Diodorus’ Library of History 20.6- 7, where he describes a scene which resembles the story of the bronze bull built for the Sicilian tyrant Phalaris. Diodorus was from Sicily itself and it’s very likely he confused these two. Diodorus is most of the time seen as someone who wrote down gossip, more than facts. He would be the equivalent of a modern gossip magazine about celebrities. More reliable sources like Polybius or Livy do not mention child sacrifice in Carthage, even though both wrote about Carthage. Polybius would’ve been an amazing source since he fought against Carthage and actually “visited” (in term of war) the city, alongside Scipio in 146 B.C. He probably wasn’t too fond of the Carthaginians, but still does not slander them with accusations like this. One could say that “it was too well known at that time that the Carthaginians sacrificed their children to mention, since Polybius expected people to know that”. That’s a possibility, but I doubt it since this argument did not stop gossip later. It was probably the same story as the Christian monks in the middle-ages discrediting the Vikings as monstrous savages. Livy lived during the same time period as Diodorus and was well informed about Carthage, but did not have any love for the city. He didn’t mention such practices either. Now, the other sources speak from a hate or enemy perspective: Tertulian was a Christian author in Carthage that just like the Hebrews towards the Phoenicians loathed them for not worshipping one god. Tertulian is also very known for his anti-Jewish De Adversus Iudaeos and believing that women are a gateway for the devil. The Carthaginian religion and traditions being of Phoenician descent (and a reference also to the fall of Samaria where similar gods were worshipped) and having a major mother goddess as well as a female founder, probably made up his mind about the ancient Carthaginians. Orosius is also a Christian and who lived long after the fall of Carthage. Philo was a Jewish writer from Alexandria. These two were both raised, as was Tertulian, in areas the Romans had taken over and completely assimilated into Roman culture and thought. It’s very likely they just copied the gossip from Plutarch or Diodorus. Plutarch wrote about the infanticide in his Moralia, where he mentoins that even the childless Carthaginians sacrifice children by buying them and slicing their necks. Which begs the question why they just wouldn't buy children for every sacrifice, because apparently it was an option. Plutarch being of Greek origin and later a Roman citizen who never met or came into contact with anything remotely Carthaginian or Phoenician, seems to also have just written down gossip or things he heard in the street. Plutarch also wrote the biography of Cato, you might remember him as the guy that said that Carthage has to be destroyed. Off all the sources the pro-Carthaginian infaticide scholars use, I would say Plutarch is the most credible one, although Carthage does not seem to be one of his main interests or fields of expertise. (nothing against Plutarch by the way, I kind of like him, he was vegetarian and had certain references to reincarnation, which I think is very unique). The pro-scholars for the ones interested: Lawrence E. Stager, Joseph A. Greene and Josephine Quinn.
P.s. This is not my native language so please excuse the spelling mistakes.
Great video... In Latin. And a great cameo from Atun Shei, really channeling disappointed father energy... In Latin.
There's also some additional dialogue in Punic after those lines in Poenulus.
It's worth noting that Punic's closest living relative is.. well, Hebrew.
What a beautiful flower inscribed in that lamp.
I bet in the future there will be internet archaeologists who dig through archived webpages and comment sections to try and get a more clear picture of society today. Hopefully they will be able to see through all the cynical comments, trolls, and conspiracy theories. And if the internet continues for 2000 years then people in the future will have a much better idea of what the present day is like than what we currently know about 2000 years ago.
The artwork is fantastic!
Loved the voice in your head!
This is the best and most entertaining history class I have had the pleasure of experiencing.
great video as always
I love how saucy you are getting in your videos
The mic still attached to the spoon really made me laugh.
What a classic ending!
Great video!
Thank you!
The spoon is greatly appreciated!
Sparta literally sacrificed their own children and we accept that, perhaps not sacrifice in the sense of offering for a god, but if they found deformities, it is said they simply chucked them off a cliff. Infanticide was definitely a thing in Sparta. Also, Romans in general have been recorded as abandoning their babies on the sides of roads if they didn't want it. And people have trouble believing Carthaginians did similar things to their children?
The Sparta thing may have been a myth. Kaiadas, the cliff the babies were supposedly thrown off, has not been found. Neither has a cliff with baby skelletons been found. Source: I am Greek.
Hello,
I am a huge fan of your channel!!! Definitely the best channel for amateur archaeology on UA-cam.
I am actually a girl lol this isn't my name.
I want to say, irs def possible that they were sacrificing children.
It's worth mentioning that in the Greek baby wells, there were also dogs. Maybe something to that.
OR
Bear in mind that we do not know anything about Carthage from its actual people.
Only from their enemies or rivals. That should be wholly considered. And Christians are even less reliable, especially where Baal is concerned.
Its possible that they were offering the soul of their dead child when they died.
The translation could also be off.
We just dont know enough about it. I'd say if the bones were looked at and any average COD can be understood, then we may have a better answer.
Human sacrifice was so rare in the ancient world .
And even if it wasn't, who are we to say it was wrong? Morality is subjective.
Great video!! Lol that spoon though 🤣
Great video, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for posting.
ALL MY FAVORITE CHANNELS IN ONE PLACE!
Haha...I watch Atun-Shei too! Interesting ending...I learn and crack up at the same time...lol!
This is an outstanding post. Educational and entertaining. Thank you and please keep up the good work. 👍👍👍👍👍
Me, drinking a beer on a Monday evening, hearing Atun Shei's cameo: cheers, I'll drink to that!
Great video, as always!
Deep dives into remnants of ancient civilizations AND existential daddy issues in one vid! I'm in.
Was Punic a Semitic language? Because I am Hebrew speaker and some of the parallels are quite remarkable. Like, "rab mahanet" kinda sounds like Hebrew words "rav" and "mahanot", which could be translated as "the head of the camps". Or "ham" literary meaning "the people", "ha am" in Hebrew as well. Or "mehashbim" being somewhat close to the Hebrew word for counting, "mehashev". Fascinating stuff.
It's always great to hear a story with a happy ending. (What harmony.)
😵
Damn your videos are only getting better and better. Also I love that you kept the spoon even with the new mic 😂
You are the best, Stefan Milo! Wait a minute. Now I sound like the comments on youtube I hate. Just meaningless "likes" and "likes comment", without wisdom. I love you, Stefan Milo. I love the consept of your films. I am from Norway. Parden my lack of english correct spelling.
This video is a gateway drug to your channel and I am an addict
TIL I needed this collab.
The Stonecutter's song from The Simpsons started playing in my head when he described the mizrehims.
A legendary ending. Good choice on the music. Thanks, Hanno!
Great video, superb ending. Thanks
All throughout human history human sacrifice has been ubiquitous. We do it today but we don't view it as such -- We call it capital punishment--the death penalty. The way contemporary America views the death penalty is probably similar to how past civilizations viewed what we call "human sacrifice." It was a normal function of their societies. We've been evolving away from it for thousands of years to the point now where we have faint remnants of it. The christian Jesus story is a human sacrifice allegory--Their claim is that Jesus' sacrificial death means we don't have to kill more people for god. It all goes way back to when predator animals would cull weak and slower members of the herds ( including humans). Once the predator finished it's hunt and had eaten, every one was safe--for awhile. The person captured and eaten by the predator was the price we paid for safety. Humans probably realized they could avoid the random terror of predator attacks by sacrificing one of the tribe--putting some one out in the open for an easy kill. All this evolved into all the bullshit religious beliefs we have today.
Really, it is quite the stretch to compare capital punishment for serial murders/rapists etc. with sacrificing ones kid for some imagined deity.
When you're dad is so harsh on you he changes countries of origin
Poor Hanno. He really deserved better
Bedtime stories with Stephan. I give it a 10/10.
Someone get this guy a proper spoon mic.
Lovely video. Greetings from Serbia.
Thanks for another great video.
4:35 Polaris was not the North Star at the time, because of the precession of the Earth's axis. The Phoenician and Carthaginian's typically used the entire constellation of Ursa Minor (Little Dipper) to find North at night. If a single star is referenced in the original material, than it would be probably Pherkad.
I love the end music with the roman holding his head
I adore abusive father Atun-shei and want more of it