Thank You Peter, I’m in 12th grade this year 2021, and will be graduating this July. I’m thankful for my religion teacher for introduce you to me. Your sermon is wholeheartedly wonderful. She sent me this link as I told her that I’m suffering in depression because of all the trials that I went through and starting to disbelief in God just because of all the pain I’ve experienced. Thank you for sharing your beautiful understanding of his words. 💛 God bless you
Hello!! I'm glad to see younger folks considering these important questions. I think it would really productive to have a discussion on this topic where other sides can explain their viewpoints, alongside that of religious folks. I'd be happy to have this discussion with you. Either way, it's wonderful that you're doing better and I hope things keep getting better and better for ya! Take care :)
Thank you Peter - In every video you post, I come a little bit closer to understanding Truth, Honesty, Good, Evil, Suffering - and how they are applied to the tenderest questions in life. Thank you for your humble and sincere discussions.
Thank you Dr. Kreeft for what you do. You change lives in the process. I love seeing the dissenting comments because, regardless of their obvious vitriol, (i.e. Vector Shift below) they are HERE and LISTENING. Even the dullest axe will eventually bring down the oak. Thanks for chopping!
I'm sending your lectures to my LGBT daughter, still hoping she'll understand. Please pray for her and other young people who are so much confused by marksizm.
@@br6074 I want to hear about the times you unambiguously got what you prayed for. We can compare that to the instances you didn't get what you prayed for. We can then examine if there is some statistical significance regarding your "answered" prayers.
Thank you for all that you do! I feel clarity watching these videos. I struggle with understanding The Lord's decisions because he sometimes allows schools full of children to burn and consume the little humans inside alive. But I know that he is still good and merciful.
@@richardkasper5822 and apparently, there is a God who sits back and lets the devil torture innocent babies. Why on earth would anyone worship such a God? If this God does exist, he does not deserve worship
The answer to this question is only one word!! Freedom of choice!! You do not allow a choice of A or B then prevent or alter the choice made?? Doing so would make the gift a farce?? The gift of free will implies that God would honor our choices??
Not if he's all powerful. An all powerful being could develop a way to provide both free will AND eliminate cancer in babies. If God can't find a way to do this, he isn't all powerful. If he is able to do it, then why doesn't he do it?
God does not allow us to suffer because he loves us at least not as a primary reason!! This is the progression: There is no good apart from God- God loves- God wants true conscious agents - God makes true conscious agents with necessary freedom of choice - God honors our choices as implied in the gift itself - we choose other than God which is sin - sin is evil - evil leads to suffering and more evil.
Sin is born of ignorance of the good. So God provides for _eternal_ punishment for ignorance? Eternal, as in never-ending excruciating physical and emotional torture. This offends every moral sensibility, and renders God a monster. No wonder there is so much unbelief.
That is a major reason many people doubt the existence of a creator. I can assure you that is a fabrication invented by organized religion to scare the hell out of humans. Religions are money making Enterprises. Hell and eternal torture, are invented to terrify believers into submission ,don’t believe it. God did create the complexity that we see around us he left us to our own devices he doesn’t make us sick. He doesn’t heal us. He doesn’t do anything to us to help or the hinder. He gave us fantastic bodies and physiology to allow us to live at least for a while. He doesn’t torture you and he doesn’t heal you, but if you prayed to him for strength to endure, and you believe he hears you, you’ll have that strength. All the money in the world won’t buy you his allegiance contrary to what churches would have you believe?
Sin is choosing evil over good. God is all good. We are free. We freely choose evil God will not take our freedom away from us. We can freely choose hell
Read Voltaire's Candide. Would not a benevolent all-powerful God create the best of all possible worlds? If Jesus saves, what about the people who died before he was born? Moreover, if Adam and Eve took forbidden fruit, no one else ever did. The animals, the plants -- none of them took forbidden fruits. Why should everything die because of what two people did. Even moreover, how do we know they or God even exists? It's all faith and no logic.
God allows us to sin because he wants us to exist as true consciousness’s the only other alternate is having computing machines or robots!! I know you know it but you skirt around the answer!!
i am not the Godfather, i am not making you an offer you can´t refuse. That´s a good one. God is not like the Force in Star Wars, he has no dark side he hasn´t yet shown you that could make you mistrustful. A good one too, but less hilarious.
+Wally Kaspars nature. evolution. all that. >but God what if life itself is the disease growing on God's creation? Lifeless planets everywhere? And we don't know it? Have you even realized we might not be like, the only form of existence in God's creation?
I am a skeptic about many things in life. Religion is one of them. I am not skeptical about the origin of the universe, the design of the universe, the creator of the universe ,Im mostly skeptical of man’s interpretation. When I read the purpose of the lecture, I thought, how is he going to show, anything good about pain and suffering that we go through in life. What possible argument can have for our Creators participation in the vicissitudes of life, and how he’ll show that God intervenes to institute or fix any of these awful experiences, we all have to live through. I mentioned that I was extremely skeptical, but I really doubt that he’d have an argument and then if he did, it would be a nonsensical one, and I wasn’t disappointed.
@@tomgreene1843God,the creator of the universe,the most logical being,or whatever he is,can’t do anything that’s ridiculous and contradicts logic,only man can perform that feat of ignorance. I don’t believe God intervenes to hurt us or to help us. I believe he created the Earth. He created this complexity of life, the complexity of human beings, and gave us the ability to live in that system. He’s given us a brain that’s logical enough to be able to figure out a lot,but not everything, but enough to survive. I don’t think he causes pain and suffering and I don’t think he alleviates it. I think we’re here because of his design and we’re left to make our own decisions and to live our lives,no matter how they end up ,good or bad. He probably answers prayer but not in the way we think. If we ask,he’ll help us cope but he won’t directly interfere. But to imagine that all we need is contributions to churches and prayers, and all our problems will be solved is a fabrication.
@@lv4077 I would mostly agree ...and particularly with your last sentence. At 76 years I'm still growing up and think the effort is still worthwhile. Thanks for your considered reply. TG
Would a loving god allow evil and suffering? No. All the argument in the world won't make it yes. That's why the argument continues, trying to convince themselves, others. But the diversions, the rationalizations, even threats, continue. But since the only answer is no the arguments can't stop. They must and will , like this one, go on.
+Vector Shift . And since when will all the argument in the world make it NO? I.e Could Vector Shift please provide some logical reasoning or proof as to why a loving god would NOT allow evil and suffering? Until then I see absolutley no reason why we should command a loving god to wrap us up in cotton wool and deny us experiencing the natural and logical consequences that arise from us using our free will (given to us by God himself) in the 1st place. Jesus and the martyrs are a prime example to everyone of us of how we can get closer to God by accepting suffering.
+Vector Shift A flame on the finger causes pain and suffering. If it didn't, the finger would be destroyed entirely. The consequence of not having pan is worse than having it. Your argument is defeated.
Chad Thompson Hardly. God is all powerful, he ought to be able to figure out a way. A loving weak god might make sense but the usual conception is rather different. There is tons of suffering that a powerful god could avoid but it's still here.
Chad Thompson I wonder why god permits all the suffering from natural disasters, disease, famine,not to mention letting humans run amok against each other. In fact it looks suspiciously like this is all just the result of natural laws that don't care at all about us.
Best con job organized religion ever invented.Massive return on investment over the years and an absolute lie,foisted on the gullible to support a massive theocracy directly contradicting the creators design and purpose
The worst way to adress the answer, to the question of evil, to an atheist would be to start from the assertion that humans have a soul, sin, libertarian free will, devil's temptations, .. So basicly this an answer to those who already accept the outcome. The 'free will' part: - We are not moraliy free to do all evil, because our actions are limited. So god did create a universe that limits our free will. I also would argue that threats of hell-promises of heaven are, in a sense, forcing people to love. (At least those who think Pascal s Wager works). - I wouldn't accept this asserted version of free will, esp when it states we 'choose' moral evil out of desire. Physical evil: - Again the sin thing... - I can follow the analogy for the link between sin, physical, nature (which offcourse only works if you believe christianity). Still: this linking is still part of the designed system so the physical evil is still designed by god. Why: -He allows our free will.. except to make up our own minds on moral issues. -Though love.. like with your kids.. that you let grow up to be uneducated, alcoholics .. that you torture afterwards for their mistakes? out of love Suffering: - out of love.. how.. we don't know.. but that proofs its true! WTF? That is not an answer to how by any standard. As you say, you can not take god to court ... which limits our freedom in morality.
P.G. Burgess "Free will part" You have confused free will with omnipotence. "Physical evil" There are two types of evil - moral and natural. Moral is the consequence of free will. The second can be shown to be in part, necessary for a greater good. For example, placing your finger in flame hurts which incentivizes you from destroying your finger.Therefore, not all suffering is bad. The suffering that no greater good is apparent, and there are examples, is a mystery. We simply do not understand what possible good can come from some events. But to argue that the world is not essentially just therefore there cannot be a just God presumes justice is real and objective - which is exactly what you would not expect if atheism were true. If atheism were true, you would see all forms of injustice the same way as you see the blue sky, with no prejudice for or against. But you dont, and that should be a red flag as to why. "Why" and "Suffering" You have hell and the point of suffering confused. To decide for yourself what is moral is termed moral relativism. And you are free to decide, but doing so means you deny the will of God and the existence He created us for, thus separating yourself from Him. This is what hell is. And the torture those in hell endure is not getting pocked with a stick by God, it is Him allowing you to "have it your way." You can decide that murder, rape, betrayal, etc.. is good, and exist in that state with like minded individuals all you want. But causing us to suffer morally from this now while you can change is an incredible good to the soul as is pain to the body if it prevents you from doing something worse (e.g. destroying your finger). That was his point, that moral suffering can be a very good thing if it prevents you from eternal separation from God, who designed us (authors rights on happiness) and can elevate our nature to achieve greater happiness than possible without.
+Chad Thompson I think you take too hard a stand on the 'problem of evil'. As with all arguments against relegion (imo) it defends 'not accepting' the theistic claims. Not defending this as proof that there is no god. So if theists propose a "benevolent, loving, allpowerfull god" (IF you do), 'the problem of evil' is not solved by calling 'some bad events' mysterious. you can't just take things that look evil to us, and asume they are 'somehow' good, beyond our knowlegde. But indeed, it says nothing that this god couldn't exist. "If atheism were true, you would see all forms of injustice with no prejudice for or against." I don't see why. We are all "at least" similar physical beings that share experiences and are concious of pain, pleasure; capable of somewhat predicting the outcome of actions and filled up with a biological sense of empathy. I really find this phrasing, which comes up so often, quite offensive. It basicly says that our opinions, our personal experiences of life nor our human nature and emotions .. that they don't matter.. for me they are all that matter. The last part of your 'response' is mere preaching as far as i am concerned. Since i don't believe hell exists i only adress the proposed ideas of others. Yours seems fine to me, if that would mean i spend eternity without this god (i do it now, and it is fine) and i am rejoined with all fellow humanists.
+P.G. Burgess The problem of evil is the only argument that attempts to disprove the existence of God. As I attempted to make clear earlier, its fatal flaw is in the premise that all suffering is evil (which I reject). The irony in your position is that you assume all suffering is evil, despite examples that clearly prove otherwise. Do you have blind faith in atheism? I see examples of how suffering isn't evil, and so im simply neutral and look to other facts. I would agree with you that all other arguments for atheism are not logical proofs concluding that there is no God, but fundamentally skepticism of theistic proofs. The problem I have is that that approach is similar to conspiracists. They hold onto their conspiracy while ignoring anything and everything that disproves it. They are very difficult to reason with (I also see this with many thiests). As far as the comment on injustice goes, my point was not to insult but to demonstrate to its full conclusion of what an atheistic existence would entail. If there was no objective morality, then there can be no unjust act. Injustice presumes there is such a thing as justice, which presumes there is a right and wrong way to behave. Morality would be as confusing to us as the statement that any sky that displays anything other than green with purple poke a dots is a tragedy.
Chad Thompson "The problem of evil is the only argument that attempts to disprove the existence of God." Only in regard to an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god. But, as i said, i agree it doesn't disprove this god. I think it makes a good point nonetheless. But people shouldn't pretend it disproves any god. "The irony in your position is that you assume all suffering is evil." To be clear, i don't assume this, nor do i believe it to be true. As far as i can see, morality is circumstancial and concequesialist. Thus it is the ballancing of suffering and wellbeing. So didn't adress your examples beacause i do agree. I hope this clears up that i'm not a blindly attatched to just disagreeing with everything. Objectivity is indeed important. But i think it works within a framework. Given certain facts about reality,such as: - physical actions have consequences - expressing ideas have an affect on the world - people (and all living things) have a certain level of consciousness - they actually experience emotions, and can differentiate between pain/pleasure, happiness and sadness - people have a biological preference for certain experiences over others - .. Within that framework it's pretty easy to determin what actions are objectivly preferable over others. It's becomes a matter of resarching the preferences of people and how to adress them in an objective manner. I agree it's not absolute and it encompasses our subjective experience... But i frankly don't care about any morality that does not take into account my subjective point of view. It's those experiences that are all that matter to me when i talk about morality.
+P.G. Burgess Well im glad that you are honest enough to admit that as an atheist, morality is subjective. Being subjective, you could never argue against Hitler murdering millions of Jews anymore than you could argue that vanilla is by fact better than chocolate. It really is the fatal error in atheism. You keep guessing at what morality should consist of, but you fail to realize its just your desire. And that desire changes on a daily basis (by your own admission).
a brain tumor kills a two year old ...... you sound ridiculous to the parents ..... and to me ?original sin? ...... curse on the earth? THAT IS NONSENSE as if you dont understand dogma
It takes participantion the the axiom of reality as such being Good. And that it's through the free will of man that they gained full consciousness and also " fell into history" - where we are existening now. It's not as straightforward to understand. The Bible mythology is a highly compressed narrative... It takes the first principle of Faith for the Reason of the Christian tradition to make logical sense and for it to flow from. Its not something one can necessarily explain through propositions from one to another. Oft times to do so is to cast pearls before swine. Best of luck interpreting the hard problem of human suffering without belief in God as Love. I found that otherwise all human suffering is not permissable, which sends me into utopian rebellion against reality. Its a suicidal path.
This man is talking real bull soup. Why? Simple: 1. you involved without your permission in this hell/heaven game ... no free will! 2. you cant stop playing the hell-heaven game without been punished by gOD..... no free will!
Thank You Peter, I’m in 12th grade this year 2021, and will be graduating this July. I’m thankful for my religion teacher for introduce you to me. Your sermon is wholeheartedly wonderful. She sent me this link as I told her that I’m suffering in depression because of all the trials that I went through and starting to disbelief in God just because of all the pain I’ve experienced. Thank you for sharing your beautiful understanding of his words. 💛 God bless you
We are glad this lecture was helpful to you.
Hello!! I'm glad to see younger folks considering these important questions. I think it would really productive to have a discussion on this topic where other sides can explain their viewpoints, alongside that of religious folks. I'd be happy to have this discussion with you.
Either way, it's wonderful that you're doing better and I hope things keep getting better and better for ya! Take care :)
Thank you, Peter Kreeft. I thank God that He has inspired me to find you.
God bless you, Dr.Kreeft...praying for you, Prof....Love from the Phils
Great minister God bless this man: God bless him again and again
Thank you Peter - In every video you post, I come a little bit closer to understanding Truth, Honesty, Good, Evil, Suffering - and how they are applied to the tenderest questions in life. Thank you for your humble and sincere discussions.
Thank you Dr. Kreeft for what you do. You change lives in the process. I love seeing the dissenting comments because, regardless of their obvious vitriol, (i.e. Vector Shift below) they are HERE and LISTENING. Even the dullest axe will eventually bring down the oak. Thanks for chopping!
Inspirational. God bless you!
I'm sending your lectures to my LGBT daughter, still hoping she'll understand. Please pray for her and other young people who are so much confused by marksizm.
I'm sure many people are praying for them. It doesn't look like it works. It looks like prayer is useless.
@@br6074 Can you -provide any evidence that prayer actually works?
@@br6074 I want to hear about the times you unambiguously got what you prayed for. We can compare that to the instances you didn't get what you prayed for. We can then examine if there is some statistical significance regarding your "answered" prayers.
Do you think LGBT is Marxism?
@@huskyfaninmass1042 how do you know it that it wouldn't be enormously worse if no one prayed?
Thank you for all that you do! I feel clarity watching these videos. I struggle with understanding The Lord's decisions because he sometimes allows schools full of children to burn and consume the little humans inside alive. But I know that he is still good and merciful.
Most of the major diseases come from the kind of lifestyle we live..
What about babies who are born with cancer? Or babies born with no arms?
What lifestyle did they lead to earn such a horrid punishment?
@@lostfan5054there is a devil.
@@richardkasper5822 and apparently, there is a God who sits back and lets the devil torture innocent babies. Why on earth would anyone worship such a God? If this God does exist, he does not deserve worship
Quite interesting.
All diseases is the result of sin. Sin is the result of disobeying God or choosing anything but God.
And how did this link come into being? Did god create the diseases to punnish, the devil, random chance?
+Danny Deadessis Then man was wrong in curing polio.
If sin was disobeying God, then nobody could choose God. And if God was forgiving, then we'd still have no choice.
So god didn't create living things like bacteria?
God doesn't allow evil you do you get punished for it it's that simple
The answer to this question is only one word!! Freedom of choice!!
You do not allow a choice of A or B then prevent or alter the choice made?? Doing so would make the gift a farce?? The gift of free will implies that God would honor our choices??
Create = cip-ta
Re|creation = cip-ta se-mu-la
Start = mu-la
Gain = per|o-leh|an
yet, for God to limit suffering..logically he would have to take away free will or end the human race?
Yeeeeep
Not if he's all powerful.
An all powerful being could develop a way to provide both free will AND eliminate cancer in babies. If God can't find a way to do this, he isn't all powerful. If he is able to do it, then why doesn't he do it?
God does not allow us to suffer because he loves us at least not as a primary reason!! This is the progression:
There is no good apart from God- God loves- God wants true conscious agents - God makes true conscious agents with necessary freedom of choice - God honors our choices as implied in the gift itself - we choose other than God which is sin - sin is evil - evil leads to suffering and more evil.
A loving God has to allow evil and suffering because if we are to have free will we have to have good and evil and that means suffering.
A loving god has to allow evil and suffering because if we are to have free will we have to have good and evil and that means suffering
That's not true. Babies are born with cancer and they suffer immensely for a few years before dying at age 4. That's not a matter of free will.
Yes, He would. Next question...
"some of my best friends ate lawyers" 😅😂
I can´t see the problem. According the Bible god did so many monstrous deeds, that nobody in his right mind can call him loving or good.
A loving God lives to watch us suffer .
Not
Sin is born of ignorance of the good. So God provides for _eternal_ punishment for ignorance? Eternal, as in never-ending excruciating physical and emotional torture. This offends every moral sensibility, and renders God a monster. No wonder there is so much unbelief.
What does ignorance of good mean?
Only psychopaths don't differenciate good from evil. Even mentally retarded understand what good is.
That is a major reason many people doubt the existence of a creator. I can assure you that is a fabrication invented by organized religion to scare the hell out of humans. Religions are money making Enterprises. Hell and eternal torture, are invented to terrify believers into submission ,don’t believe it. God did create the complexity that we see around us he left us to our own devices he doesn’t make us sick. He doesn’t heal us. He doesn’t do anything to us to help or the hinder. He gave us fantastic bodies and physiology to allow us to live at least for a while. He doesn’t torture you and he doesn’t heal you, but if you prayed to him for strength to endure, and you believe he hears you, you’ll have that strength. All the money in the world won’t buy you his allegiance contrary to what churches would have you believe?
Sin is choosing evil over good.
God is all good. We are free.
We freely choose evil
God will not take our freedom away from us. We can freely choose hell
29:29
Can´t see the problem. God allegedly did so many monstrous deeds according to the Bible that I can´t see how anyone can claim he is a loving being.
Read Voltaire's Candide. Would not a benevolent all-powerful God create the best of all possible worlds? If Jesus saves, what about the people who died before he was born? Moreover, if Adam and Eve took forbidden fruit, no one else ever did. The animals, the plants -- none of them took forbidden fruits. Why should everything die because of what two people did. Even moreover, how do we know they or God even exists? It's all faith and no logic.
God allows us to sin because he wants us to exist as true consciousness’s the only other alternate is having computing machines or robots!! I know you know it but you skirt around the answer!!
i am not the Godfather, i am not making you an offer you can´t refuse. That´s a good one. God is not like the Force in Star Wars, he has no dark side he hasn´t yet shown you that could make you mistrustful. A good one too, but less hilarious.
The star wars comparasion was an example of the gnostic picture the snake was trying to sell.
@@benjaminlquinlan8702😅
Who created all diseases?
+Wally Kaspars nature. evolution. all that.
>but God
what if life itself is the disease growing on God's creation? Lifeless planets everywhere? And we don't know it?
Have you even realized we might not be like, the only form of existence in God's creation?
"Religion Soup"???
I am a skeptic about many things in life. Religion is one of them. I am not skeptical about the origin of the universe, the design of the universe, the creator of the universe ,Im mostly skeptical of man’s interpretation. When I read the purpose of the lecture, I thought, how is he going to show, anything good about pain and suffering that we go through in life. What possible argument can have for our Creators participation in the vicissitudes of life, and how he’ll show that God intervenes to institute or fix any of these awful experiences, we all have to live through. I mentioned that I was extremely skeptical, but I really doubt that he’d have an argument and then if he did, it would be a nonsensical one, and I wasn’t disappointed.
What can a sceptic reasonably infer?
@@tomgreene1843God,the creator of the universe,the most logical being,or whatever he is,can’t do anything that’s ridiculous and contradicts logic,only man can perform that feat of ignorance. I don’t believe God intervenes to hurt us or to help us. I believe he created the Earth. He created this complexity of life, the complexity of human beings, and gave us the ability to live in that system. He’s given us a brain that’s logical enough to be able to figure out a lot,but not everything, but enough to survive. I don’t think he causes pain and suffering and I don’t think he alleviates it. I think we’re here because of his design and we’re left to make our own decisions and to live our lives,no matter how they end up ,good or bad. He probably answers prayer but not in the way we think. If we ask,he’ll help us cope but he won’t directly interfere. But to imagine that all we need is contributions to churches and prayers, and all our problems will be solved is a fabrication.
@@lv4077 I would mostly agree ...and particularly with your last sentence. At 76 years I'm still growing up and think the effort is still worthwhile. Thanks for your considered reply. TG
Would a loving god allow evil and suffering?
No.
All the argument in the world won't make it yes.
That's why the argument continues, trying to convince themselves, others.
But the diversions, the rationalizations, even threats, continue. But since the only answer is no the arguments can't stop.
They must and will , like this one, go on.
+Vector Shift . And since when will all the argument in the world make it NO? I.e Could Vector Shift please provide some logical reasoning or proof as to why a loving god would NOT allow evil and suffering? Until then I see absolutley no reason why we should command a loving god to wrap us up in cotton wool and deny us experiencing the natural and logical consequences that arise from us using our free will (given to us by God himself) in the 1st place. Jesus and the martyrs are a prime example to everyone of us of how we can get closer to God by accepting suffering.
+Vector Shift A flame on the finger causes pain and suffering. If it didn't, the finger would be destroyed entirely. The consequence of not having pan is worse than having it. Your argument is defeated.
Chad Thompson
Hardly. God is all powerful, he ought to be able to figure out a way. A loving weak god might make sense but the usual conception is rather different. There is tons of suffering that a powerful god could avoid but it's still here.
+Vector Shift He has. You just don't like the answer. back to your original complaint: you have no logical argument. you're just complaining.
Chad Thompson
I wonder why god permits all the suffering from natural disasters, disease, famine,not to mention letting humans run amok against each other. In fact it looks suspiciously like this is all just the result of natural laws that don't care at all about us.
how is it called when you indulge in profund analysis of a term that is nowhere near defined?
idiotism? or ultimate idiotism? :)
Peter is a Catholic I am so SAD 😫, nah I'm just joking I'm happy because he's a Catholic.
God loves us so much he created hell in case we don't love him back. 😆
Best con job organized religion ever invented.Massive return on investment over the years and an absolute lie,foisted on the gullible to support a massive theocracy directly contradicting the creators design and purpose
The existence of evil can lead to the conclusion that god is evil.
What a dumb comment. God gave man free will. That includes choosing good and evil. I do hope you are prepared to take responsibility for that comment.
The worst way to adress the answer, to the question of evil, to an atheist would be to start from the assertion that humans have a soul, sin, libertarian free will, devil's temptations, ..
So basicly this an answer to those who already accept the outcome.
The 'free will' part:
- We are not moraliy free to do all evil, because our actions are limited. So god did create a universe that limits our free will.
I also would argue that threats of hell-promises of heaven are, in a sense, forcing people to love. (At least those who think Pascal s Wager works).
- I wouldn't accept this asserted version of free will, esp when it states we 'choose' moral evil out of desire.
Physical evil:
- Again the sin thing...
- I can follow the analogy for the link between sin, physical, nature (which offcourse only works if you believe christianity). Still: this linking is still part of the designed system so the physical evil is still designed by god.
Why:
-He allows our free will.. except to make up our own minds on moral issues.
-Though love.. like with your kids.. that you let grow up to be uneducated, alcoholics .. that you torture afterwards for their mistakes? out of love
Suffering:
- out of love.. how.. we don't know.. but that proofs its true! WTF?
That is not an answer to how by any standard.
As you say, you can not take god to court ... which limits our freedom in morality.
P.G. Burgess "Free will part" You have confused free will with omnipotence.
"Physical evil" There are two types of evil - moral and natural. Moral is the consequence of free will. The second can be shown to be in part, necessary for a greater good. For example, placing your finger in flame hurts which incentivizes you from destroying your finger.Therefore, not all suffering is bad. The suffering that no greater good is apparent, and there are examples, is a mystery. We simply do not understand what possible good can come from some events. But to argue that the world is not essentially just therefore there cannot be a just God presumes justice is real and objective - which is exactly what you would not expect if atheism were true. If atheism were true, you would see all forms of injustice the same way as you see the blue sky, with no prejudice for or against. But you dont, and that should be a red flag as to why.
"Why" and "Suffering" You have hell and the point of suffering confused. To decide for yourself what is moral is termed moral relativism. And you are free to decide, but doing so means you deny the will of God and the existence He created us for, thus separating yourself from Him. This is what hell is. And the torture those in hell endure is not getting pocked with a stick by God, it is Him allowing you to "have it your way." You can decide that murder, rape, betrayal, etc.. is good, and exist in that state with like minded individuals all you want. But causing us to suffer morally from this now while you can change is an incredible good to the soul as is pain to the body if it prevents you from doing something worse (e.g. destroying your finger). That was his point, that moral suffering can be a very good thing if it prevents you from eternal separation from God, who designed us (authors rights on happiness) and can elevate our nature to achieve greater happiness than possible without.
+Chad Thompson I think you take too hard a stand on the 'problem of evil'.
As with all arguments against relegion (imo) it defends 'not accepting' the theistic claims. Not defending this as proof that there is no god.
So if theists propose a "benevolent, loving, allpowerfull god" (IF you do), 'the problem of evil' is not solved by calling 'some bad events' mysterious. you can't just take things that look evil to us, and asume they are 'somehow' good, beyond our knowlegde.
But indeed, it says nothing that this god couldn't exist.
"If atheism were true, you would see all forms of injustice with no prejudice for or against."
I don't see why. We are all "at least" similar physical beings that share experiences and are concious of pain, pleasure; capable of somewhat predicting the outcome of actions and filled up with a biological sense of empathy.
I really find this phrasing, which comes up so often, quite offensive. It basicly says that our opinions, our personal experiences of life nor our human nature and emotions .. that they don't matter.. for me they are all that matter.
The last part of your 'response' is mere preaching as far as i am concerned. Since i don't believe hell exists i only adress the proposed ideas of others.
Yours seems fine to me, if that would mean i spend eternity without this god (i do it now, and it is fine) and i am rejoined with all fellow humanists.
+P.G. Burgess The problem of evil is the only argument that attempts to disprove the existence of God. As I attempted to make clear earlier, its fatal flaw is in the premise that all suffering is evil (which I reject). The irony in your position is that you assume all suffering is evil, despite examples that clearly prove otherwise. Do you have blind faith in atheism? I see examples of how suffering isn't evil, and so im simply neutral and look to other facts.
I would agree with you that all other arguments for atheism are not logical proofs concluding that there is no God, but fundamentally skepticism of theistic proofs. The problem I have is that that approach is similar to conspiracists. They hold onto their conspiracy while ignoring anything and everything that disproves it. They are very difficult to reason with (I also see this with many thiests).
As far as the comment on injustice goes, my point was not to insult but to demonstrate to its full conclusion of what an atheistic existence would entail. If there was no objective morality, then there can be no unjust act. Injustice presumes there is such a thing as justice, which presumes there is a right and wrong way to behave. Morality would be as confusing to us as the statement that any sky that displays anything other than green with purple poke a dots is a tragedy.
Chad Thompson
"The problem of evil is the only argument that attempts to disprove the existence of God."
Only in regard to an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god. But, as i said, i agree it doesn't disprove this god. I think it makes a good point nonetheless. But people shouldn't pretend it disproves any god.
"The irony in your position is that you assume all suffering is evil."
To be clear, i don't assume this, nor do i believe it to be true. As far as i can see, morality is circumstancial and concequesialist. Thus it is the ballancing of suffering and wellbeing. So didn't adress your examples beacause i do agree.
I hope this clears up that i'm not a blindly attatched to just disagreeing with everything.
Objectivity is indeed important. But i think it works within a framework.
Given certain facts about reality,such as:
- physical actions have consequences
- expressing ideas have an affect on the world
- people (and all living things) have a certain level of consciousness
- they actually experience emotions, and can differentiate between pain/pleasure, happiness and sadness
- people have a biological preference for certain experiences over others
- ..
Within that framework it's pretty easy to determin what actions are objectivly preferable over others. It's becomes a matter of resarching the preferences of people and how to adress them in an objective manner.
I agree it's not absolute and it encompasses our subjective experience... But i frankly don't care about any morality that does not take into account my subjective point of view. It's those experiences that are all that matter to me when i talk about morality.
+P.G. Burgess Well im glad that you are honest enough to admit that as an atheist, morality is subjective. Being subjective, you could never argue against Hitler murdering millions of Jews anymore than you could argue that vanilla is by fact better than chocolate. It really is the fatal error in atheism. You keep guessing at what morality should consist of, but you fail to realize its just your desire. And that desire changes on a daily basis (by your own admission).
a brain tumor kills a two year old ...... you sound ridiculous to the parents ..... and to me ?original sin? ...... curse on the earth? THAT IS NONSENSE as if you dont understand dogma
It takes participantion the the axiom of reality as such being Good. And that it's through the free will of man that they gained full consciousness and also " fell into history" - where we are existening now. It's not as straightforward to understand. The Bible mythology is a highly compressed narrative... It takes the first principle of Faith for the Reason of the Christian tradition to make logical sense and for it to flow from. Its not something one can necessarily explain through propositions from one to another. Oft times to do so is to cast pearls before swine.
Best of luck interpreting the hard problem of human suffering without belief in God as Love. I found that otherwise all human suffering is not permissable, which sends me into utopian rebellion against reality. Its a suicidal path.
This man is talking real bull soup. Why?
Simple:
1. you involved without your permission in this hell/heaven game ... no free will!
2. you cant stop playing the hell-heaven game without been punished by gOD..... no free will!
Free-will obviously has nothing to do with existence. No one chooses whether or not to exist. You have to exist first to choose.
Furthermore, ending your existence is clearly possible since people commit suicide, which disproves your second claim.
??? What about limbo??
This is very profound, for retards
SOOO BOARING.
You can't even spell correctly. Go back to sleep.