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As a former [L2], I can definitively say that judges are there to help you. We can't play the game for you or advise you on your best outs, but we can certainly shuffle decks when under suspicion of dubious scenarios. You are allowed to ask a judge to shuffle and cut your deck if you believe your opponent isn't doing an adequate job. Once a judge has shuffled, it cannot be touched by another player, unless it needs to be shuffled again. I was called two or three times during an event where we had someone suspected of deck manipulation. It was always my experience that when players DID ask for a judge's intervention, it really struck the fear of god into people who either tried to be disingenuous, were unintentionally doing a poor job, or were leveraging advantage. Please note, sometimes it's late in an event and people are tired. I read once that at a ten round eternal format event, the number of shuffles a player could see can be in the hundreds.
"unintentionally doing a poor job" is what I always have in the back of my head, probably leading to me letting people off easier than they deserve. Some people just have bad motor skills or are generally not well coordinated with their hands and thus look awkward while shuffling.
How is this a good solution? Are there enough judges at every tournament to be shuffling everyone's decks for them? Or to even just shuffle one pair of players decks for them for an entire round? Formats like modern often have multiple shuffles happening per round.
@@derekcline950 As I mentioned, if you call a judge once, there is this "fear of God" aura that tends permeate that entire table. I've seen it about four or five times. It's even more prominent if the head judge or [L3] at an event is asked to perform the shuffle. Not every shuffle is necessary, but I would advocate for "spot" shuffle requests when you feel something is off. Discretion is the key here or the judges will mention that people might be overdoing it, but they may also hover around the table for a few minutes too. Remember, we are here to help and maintain a fair, fun, and entertaining play experience for everyone.
@@Tvboy777 I have nerve damage in my right arm. After four rounds of EDH, I find it very difficult to shuffle a 100 card deck. Think about what it's like to go through a 60 card format event with about ten rounds. If the average number of cracked fetches is approx. 10 between both decks per game, that's 30 instances of shuffles per three game match minimum - assuming three games and fetches required for both decks. People get tired, mistakes are made, and all of us are still human. Hence, unintentionally doing a poor job of shuffling.
Thank you for posting this, now that you have highlighted this, there is definitely a guy at my LGS that comes to play the more "competitive" events that is 100% guilty of this every time I play him and it never even really occurred to me the amount of advantage it gives him. Also, looking forward to meeting you at CommandFest Orlando next week!
Back when I played on the pro tour our testing group all learnt card shark and magic card tricks for the exact purpose of knowing what could be done and what to watch out for. People can't be trusted when money is on the line, if your not sure, always have a judge shuffle decks for you in full view of both players.
That's probably also one of the major issues why pros get tempted to cheat so much - they learn how the cheats work to spot them, and when you know, it's that much easier to just...do it and think no one notices.
Being a pretty casual player I sometimes found myself catching a glance at the bottom of my opponents deck. Completely unintentional, the cards just drew my eyes. I had to actively change the way I shuffled to prevent this. I definitely always knew you’re not supposed to do it, I was just being too casual/lazy about it.
I have pretty bad motor skills, and thus I often shuffle with my cards facing my opponent. I've had people remark that they can see my cards before, it really doesn't bother me, but I get where someone might feel they're getting unwarranted information or something
worth noting people can use this chest while also cutting your deck after 'shuffling' it. its more subtle in its effects, and the cut after shuffling can help remove suspicion, but if they know certain cards will be very important to your deck, or help you against yours specifically, they move as many copies as they can to the top, then cut it into the middle. everything up til choosing to cut looks the same tho, so all of that stands the same as far as catching someone, but just because they cut after doesn't mean they're definitely not cheating, so if they raised a red flag before that, you're still totally justified in calling a judge
@@Tacklepig there's really no end to how devious you can be with card manipulation, just more practice required to get it reliable and subtle. I think the important part of preventing cheating is just making it hard to get away with.
So what I get from this is that when I shuffle I should look directly into my opponent's eyes. Making intense, intimate eye contact. Glaring directly into their soul.
I caught a player stacking their deck with all the lands in their sleeves left at the top of the sleeves and all non lands placed deep in the sleeves. That way when the deck was placed on the table with the open end of the sleeves towards them, they could easily see where the lands were. Making it super easy to decide if they wanted to keep a draw. The edges of the cards are easy to see when they are not deep in the sleeves
I know personally I have been told my shuffling looks extremely suspicious simply cause i look down some times since i drop cards so often. But all of my opponents have told me that they know i wasnt cheating simply cause i would cut the deck multiple times and ask them to do the same. Being honest and upfront helps alot for us that are just bad with shuffling.
I agree that cheating should result in a lifetime ban from competitive play. 4years isn’t enough, and a lifetime ban would be much bigger deterrent from cheating.
In Monopoly: Deal, I’ve stack the deck before. I also once accidentally stacked the deck against myself and still won. Deal is the card game form of Monopoly, but without the trading.
That was fascinating. I've played against some weird shuffling over the years. I didn't suspect anything at the time and still don't, I play super low sakes, but I'll try to remember and keep an eye out. Now if you can do a video about how I get screwed on shuffle in Arena...
Lol MTGO is pretty bad too. I'll have a one of in my deck and a higher than it should be have it in my opening hand or at minimum draw it within the first few turns.
@@XCodes oh doesn't surprise me I won't even remotely deny arena is Garbo and a predatory application. That's why I quit playing it and switched to MTGO.
@@XCodes oh its not even just forced flooding, it is a proven fact that Arena will try its best to force you into a 50% win rate. and some decks can only get that with land screwing. i have literally watched games where someone has 2 lands after drawing 15+ cards past their starting 7. and that's with the supposed "hand smoother" to prevent non-games. in paper/MTGO that's just bad luck, in a game with a system admitted to try to force fun games that's planned.
Another thing while mash shuffling is it's easy to accidentally not randomize the top/bottom. As a rule I try to make sure each shuffle that as I split and then mash the deck that the top and bottom card are changing. Not saying that's what happened in the video but a tip for new players
This is a big point, it's really easy to get caught in the trap of how the mechanics of shuffling actually affect a deck and fail to randomize entire sections because you're moving roughly the same sequence of cards around in the same pattern. In a casual setting this often just leads to silly or funny instances of "oh wow, I really botched that shuffle" as you draw lands for 6 turns after a 5 land keep and die a slow, sad death. When you get into situations where a prize is on the line though it can be both an unintended detriment to yourself, and either intended or unintended detriment to your opponent.
For sure. I know that commander decks feel like some cards come to you more often, but there's other times where I feel like every single time I see a deck, without tutors even, there's one or two cards that come out every game without fail.
My personal favorite way to avoid this sort of issue is to split the deck into roughly 4 or 5 parts visually, taking the top 20-25% of cards and mash shuffling into the bottom half of the deck. Then, repeat for the other 4-5 visual sections. You can even repeat this process from the bottom as well for a very random mash shuffle.
People always look at me like a monster when I am playing in modern/legacy events because I bridge shuffle my deck. I will not bridge an opponent’s deck, generally I just do a cut when my opponent presents, but I bridge shuffle my deck. If you do it correctly, you won’t bend it damage your expensive cards. Plus, I do enjoy seeing the look of horror in the faces of my opponents when I’m playing Ice Station Zebra in legacy.
Honestly one of the most awkward things is when your opponent is shuffling in a way such that you can see all of the cards, whether its your deck or theirs. It's like, do I look away? Do I tell them to shuffle it differently? Do I just take in the information they're giving me for free? Always kind of awkward.
If they're giving you the information, feel no issue with using it. If you want to be a good person, point out that they're giving you information. But you do have a duty to stare intently at your opponent's deck as they shuffle. After all, if you aren't watching, how can you know they shuffled properly and aren't cheating?
Seems like an appropriate place to also say: if you “pile shuffle” to “distribute” lands evenly, you’re stacking your deck illegally. If you shuffle afterwards in such a way that the pile shuffle affected the final position of the cards, you didn’t shuffle properly. So there’s no point “pile shuffling” your lands. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
Pile shuffle is an odd case, if your sorting lands out and using them as a separate pile to put 1 land 3 nonland 1 land 3 nonland definitely cheating. Making random piles facedown to shuffle because you feel clumping has happened and you want to break it up should be totally ok though
@@peadrianlastname but in that case you’re using a specific method of organizing the cards to influence the final result - ie not randomizing. If you’re faithfully randomizing the cards via a sound shuffling method, the original order of the card should have no (direct intentional) effect on the final order. If you pile shuffle to break up perceived clumping, you’re stacking the deck, albeit poorly
@@Cornelius135 Pile shuffles are actually useful to count the cards in your deck, especially between games. It's fine as long as you shuffle regularly afterwards, though I agree any pile shuffle shouldn't impact the final positions significantly. If a player feels it prevents clumping, that's just superstition not cheating if they also shuffle properly.
Meanwhile, I'm so clumsy at FNM, I end up accidently revealing my own deck, cutting weirdly (e.g., two on bottom only), or momentarily dropping cards. My opponents think I'm up to something with slight of hand, but I'm actually just derping it.
I had someone do this to me at the KTK prerelease at my LGS, where the store was giving away an Unlimited Mox Jet plus boxes to the winner. I mulled to 4, 3, and 4 hitting zero lands before those keeps. I'd have probably been suspicious, but this was a midnight prerelease and I'd won a Modern FNM and worked a full day prior to the event; I was exhausted. We were in like round 6 or 7 of Swiss and we were nearing 6 AM (the finals didn't end until after 10 AM). I still took him down on both mulls to 4, as his deck wasn't very well built or powerful and I just had a reasonable curve out both games (which, in fairness, is what I build my deck to do as opposed to running a higher curve). Had my semifinals and finals opponents at that tournament somewhat hint that they thought I was shuffle cheating. "Your opponents seem to flood a lot." Well, yeah, you're all playing the 19 lands and 1+ Dorks/Banners in a 40 card deck that the pros recommended for sealed. You've got roughly a 50% chance on any given turn to draw a mana source in that situation; of course you're flooding. I thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard, because I certainly wasn't cheating. Of course, my finals opponent that said it was probably just salty because I was his only two GAME losses of the 11 round tournament... and I 2-0'd him.
During an original Theros pre release many moons ago now I suspect I was shuffle cheated. Sure it was just a pre release but there was a difference in prizes between 1st 2nd and 3rd. I didn't suspect anything at the time as I wasn't into playing the game competitively and didn't think anyone would feel the need to cheat at a pre release. It later turned out my opponent was suspected to cheat in a variety of ways and was finally caught and subsequently banned from the major LGS's in the city at some point after the Theros set released.
Learning magic tricks in general helps you pick out people who know these tricks as well. I ask competitive players to watch Chris Ramsey in particular, he’s very experienced in slight of hand and shows a lot of tricks in slow motion to break it down.
This is wild to me as an EDH player. Being a singleton casual format my friends / playgroup got into a whacky habit of grabbing each others decks and showing off the bottom card to the rest of the table just to goof around. We all did it and no hard feelings were had. Being a casual player that I am the levels people go to in order to cheat is wild.
Pretty funny story here. I used practice magic tricks and sleight of hand a lot, so one card slips like this got very smooth very quickly. I got into magic when I was 13, and eventually got my friends into it at 15. My friend - now wife - Sadie had just built her first deck and could not for the life of her shyffle into a fair hand to play. She got so discouraged about it that she was about to quit on the spot, until I offered to shuffle for her. I did a couple of splits, riffle shuffled a foothills (yikes), and thumbed two lands to the top for her. She finally got a hand to play with and was so excited! I, however, got my ass kicked haha. Her and I have been playing magic since that day and I still haven't told her about it. Every now and then I might stack a hand for her just to make her smile haha.
In my experience the most common cheats are misunderstanding cheats. Just the other week I was playing at a new store and I played against a player who would shuffle for a while then he flicked through his deck to make sure the land and spells were well distributed before mash shuffling it once and presenting it to be cut. Had to explain to him why this was super iffy. Another I remember from years ago at a prerelease when a super new player would manaweave straight up after every game before mash shuffling, though at least he did it a few times. Struggled a lot more to explain to him why this wasn’t okay as he thought it was fine so long as he randomised it afterwards.
There was a game, can't remember the name, that came out on steam where the central mechanic is being a cheat at card games in the Victorian era. I watched a whole playthrough of it and was astounded how many real techniques (with silly names) they employed to demonstrate how one can actually stack decks, palm cards, etc., etc.
I’ve definitely “noticed” cards from my own deck when shuffling, but not intentionally, and I always look away and reshuffle any time I catch a glimpse of a card. I’ve only ever been a casual magic player, though.
Technically, best practice for proper randomization is a riffle shuffle-strip combo. Unfortunately, everyone gets a little upset when you riffle a couple thousand dollars.
I've been putting more ads on my videos because it tends to still only serve one or two to most people. This is really weird that your getting all of the ad spots full filled. Genuinely sorry about that. :(
Woah, just realized that I've been glancing at my cards since I shuffle the same way. I never thought it'd be a huge deal since I mainly play commander and that it wouldn't matter much in a 100 card format, but I will definitely start shuffling at an angle so that my cards arn't visible. I usually play commander but I do play sealed and draft at my LGS from time to time so I will make sure to change the way I shuffle so I don't get suspected of cheating lol thanks for the heads up on this!
If you're playing casual commander I don't think too many people will care. When I'm playing with friends and need to shuffle I straight up will look at the top card just cause I'm curious to see what I would've drawn had I not shuffled. I don't really see that as cheating because I am shuffling and it's a singleton format.
I remember in my first GP I got top 8 in, Everyone was paranoid from the Jared Betcher scandal and we were all paranoid about shuffling. So Many dropped decks in shuffling trying not to look down at opponents deck
One of the things I like about Flesh and Blood is you know what your opponent is on before the game starts so the advantage of getting a peak at an opponents deck is marginal.
@@dingdongs5208 Unless you are Oldhim or Bravo. Then I can I'll take all the blues I can get. You are right though. Different heroes can brick more often.
I do this anyway for mtg. i just shuffled my deck already. if you wanna cut it or shuffle it again to make sure i didnt cheat but then dont allow me to cut after you then what is even the point? so i always cut if my opp shuffles. most of the time though i find people are fine just cutting your deck after you shuffle
SCG Indianapolis 2013 (maybe 2014), I was X-3 going into the last round of swiss (maybe X-4, we weren't in top 8 contention, but contention for a chunk of money break point). We shuffle/present our decks, and I see them shuffling my deck real weird, of note they piled shuffled their own deck, as did I so when presented to me, I did the same. They did not pile shuffle my deck. When they returned my deck I picked it up and just gave it a few riffle shuffles before presenting it back. Confused they picked up my deck and repeated their odd shuffling of my deck; I locked eye contact the whole time. They gave my deck back and I riffle shuffled again, now their face was wrought with confusion. I put my deck back down and just said, "would you like me to call a judge?" They were so clearly shaken and tilted that the match was almost like playing Timmy at an FNM (they kept a poor hand game 1, and ran a whip of erebos out into my on-board Whip with keening apparition in grave game 2). I'm not sure how I 100% KNEW they were cheating, but sometimes calling out the cheater just gets them so off their own game.
Honestly, when I first got into MTG a couple of years ago I didn't realize that I was shuffling at a kind of weird angle and sometimes could see the bottom card of my library, stuff like that. Especially since I stared down and don't make eye contact with people, happened a fair amount lol. I got started playing during lockdown, and it wasn't until I'd been playing like a year and went to my first in-person event that it clicked for me that it was a problem. Still occasionally fall into that, and I found the best thing to do is just call myself out on it. I'd hate for an opponent to even think I was trying to get an advantage like that just because I'm awkward and don't know how my body works sometimes
Same here it's just how I shuffle naturally and it just feels right, but I guess having that tiny bit of hidden knowledge does go a long way and is actually a huge advantage.
@@AndresColumbus Nope, I genuinely didn't. We all do plenty of things by accident or that we don't realize has certain implications without meaning to or doing it willfully. Remembering something also doesn't equate to doing it on purpose or setting out to cheat.
When you cut as well you could always cut into at least 3 piles and make sure a middle pile ends up on top as the middle as the top and bottom are the easiest areas to manipulate.
11:36 Even after all these years I can't read Trevor's whiny rage post without cracking up. The mispellings, the random/incorrect capitalization, the lack of punctuation. It's honestly copypasta worthy.
I have always been under the impression that if your opponent shuffles your deck but doesn’t cut it you can cut it yourself. I personally do this and it helps against people trying to stack the top cards of your deck.
I've also always thought this - that there's a right to a final cut. Basically, if your opponent shuffles, they have to cut in the end or you get to cut. Apparently it's not an actual rule, but I think it should be.
When I was brand new, I used to peek by accident because I was bad at shuffling. It's something that, as silly as it sounds, practicing your shuffle can completely eliminate. Now this never resulted in free information that I could do anything with, at the time, because I was altogether kind of bad at the game back then, but it's something I'm very glad I practiced out of.
Over the last 10ish years I've had people do things like this, and others like a random scry out of nowhere. (Where there was no instance of scrying_ When I called judge the store owner just shrugged and said that everyone was super casual and people thought I was an asshole. That store is no longer running,
Nice vid. I prefer a single cut in the dead center after shuffling. Just as people can, with practice, move known cards to the top they can also move them to the bottom. If the cards are on the bottom that 4th or 5th cut can move the whole stack to the top. With a single cut in the center you'd have to be Ricky Jay to cheat something to the top.
I occasionally look down because I sometimes struggle aligning the cards even when actively trying to look away - so I always offer the cut to players.
I got a person disqualified from a Dominaria pre-release not for shuffle cheating but for having an impossible pool... every creature in his deck was a wizard and there were 3 of and 4 of copies of uncommon wizards and even duplicate rares in the deck, it was the 3rd event of the weekend and this was a guy who had been known in previous to have possibly brought outside cards into pre-release events from previous events. He got banned, and I havent seen him back at the LGS since then.
Oh yeah, I've been wise to this for a while. Now I can show this to friends who are new to the game! Newbies are really susceptible to this kind of cheat.
Yugioh has the "final cut" rule where if your opponent opts to shuffle your deck, you're allowed to perform a final cut after that shuffle we should really get that
This video triggered me cause I've been accused of this cheat when I was a nearly brand new player. FNM. Standard. I'm on Grixis Scarab God (borrowed from a friend) vs Selesnya Pummeler. I get hit with a Field of Ruin, and go and grab a mountain (last basic in the deck). I wasn't a good shuffler yet so I was looking down at my deck to shuffle. My opponent had been waving off the cut when I offered it to them, so by this point in game 3 I just set it down after my shuffle. He immediately says "pause the game" and calls the judge. He exclaims to the judge that he thinks I'm shuffle cheating and I'm explaining how I'm a noob. The judge asked to review the game state. My opponent is at 7 life and I have (after blocks) 4 damage coming through next turn. The judge looked at my top card... It's the last Glorybringer left in my deck, which would have been lethal. That pretty much sealed the deal for the judge (since I also grabbed a mountain) and I was dq'd. I never played standard again or at that card shop. Pioneer ftw!
I never understood why a judge isnt at the table with the players and have the judge shuffle the decks if it's high stakes to avoid this sort of cheating.. is there just not enough judges around?
When you're shuffling, just give your opponent the death stare. Put the fear in them. Seriously, money makes people do terrible things. For the purposes of MTG, it not only is unfair but it takes the magic (pun intended) out of it. MTG is meant to be fun and if someone is making it where their opponent can't have fun, that's just shitty. Even when I'm playing commander, I have to look away to make sure I'm not glancing at my cards. If I do accidentally see a card, more shuffling happens. Cheating in a professional setting should be an automatic life ban. There's a time and a place for second chances but, if we look back at cheaters in MTG, they will just do so again.
Appreciate this. Pretty sure I was cheated at Standard event a few years ago. Long story short, game three, I had stomped the guy game one, game two he barely squeaked by as I was a land short, I literally had him sweating (it was the final round of the event). He side in 4 cards, he had been 2 colors the entire round. Right out the gate Game 3, he finds his sided in third color source and the two back to back bullets to my deck, which were also in a third color he hadn't been playing all round. He blew me out in 4 turns. The guy went from literally talking mad shit pregame, to stressing and sweating as I had him by the balls game 1 and 2 and then suddenly game 3 he just bulldozed me out of nowhere and back to being cocky. He even got up immediately after I conceded, scooped up everything, grabbed his prize and bolted out of the store
Well you've also just accurately described getting sideboard well by your opponent to be fair. I've had games where I'm the other guy MANY times and I'm not cheating lmao
L1 here, as someone who judges 40+ player FNMs, stepping away from the table makes communication infinatly easier. You avoid the vague wording players use to not give away information.
I played at the cappenna prerelease at an LGS a little bit back, and had an opponent who was around 16-17, kind of seemed like a knowitall and had two ledger shredders in his deck. it’s low stakes, prerelease, so i let him shuffle up and draw his hand game one, when he drew both of his ledger shredders. then again in game two, he drew both his ledger shredders again! what incredible luck! we went to game three and he started to draw his hand quickly before i was done shuffling and i said loudly i’d like to cut his deck, made him put his hand back on his deck and cut. and he drew 0 ledger shredders and i stomped him. moral of the story, speak up, make sure you cut decks, especially if you think someone’s playing fishy
While not intentionally cheating, I was garbage at shuffling when I was younger. It took way longer than necessary and I had to actively watch the deck and my hands to not accidentally make the deck fly everywhere. My brother sat me down and taught me how to actually shuffle after our first game of commander together.
I showed my friend group my false riffle shuffle, false cut, and side shuffle top force so they would know I'm not going to use my "magic" skills during the poker game... They were hesitant, but they understood that if I wanted to cheat, I likely could. "I don't want to have to be watching you all the time." I laughed because they should be watching everyone regardless 😂.
Wow 😳 I've never seen anyone shuffle my deck when cutting nor have I ever done it. I'll just simply cut the deck into different halves or multiple stacks then re-stack it. If I ever saw someone actually shuffle my deck I'd have gotten suspicious without ever knowing about this trick. Glad you made a video like this.
I too have never shuffled someone’s deck beyond a simple cut. If someone picked up my deck like that, I’d be put off. I haven’t played in anything beyond FNM though
There was this guy at a friend's LGS who would put a card on top every time he fetched, then shuffle while leaving the card there (taking advantage of the fact that no one ever cut decks at FNM)
Aaaand this is why I feel like high-end competitive paper Magic is, ultimately, kinda borked. The advantages to be gained from card manipulation are *so* huge, and can be *so* hard to detect (there's over a century of deck manipulation techniques to draw from!) that I don't see how you stop it short of making every judge an expert in card sleight of hand.
I saw another hard to spot shuffle cheat primarily for limited. it might have been nikachu's video. primarily for limited but probably also works for 60 card formats it is pile shuffling with 5 piles and done twice. beforehand you have to have your lands and other cards seperated and then one put on top of the other. The benefit is that if you do that, your deck will have a really good distribution of lands throughout your deck. the distribution is so good that you will have to mash-shuffle 20+ times in order to break the "sorting" you have done. basicly if I see my opponent do 5 piles I will mash-shuffle 25 times just to be sure. the video also shoved how to reverse the process as long as no further tampering have been made after the two 5 pile shufflings have been made. BTW: great video and I think it is very important that content creators put the spotlight on the shady side of card games once in a while.
I think that you need to do the casino shuffle to get that effect. the one where you put all the cards on the table and then move your hands around in circles. I do not think a legacy/vintage player will allow that :) the side mashing (the one from the video) is the one most commonly used. I do not know the name of the shuffle where you essentially cut the deck multiple times while have it your hand. but that is even less effective most of the time.
@@Glornie A casino wash is the only way to get a fully random deck in one iteration, but 7-8 riffles or mashes will also fully randomize a deck assuming you're not doing perfect faro shuffles. You are correct that overhand shuffles are worse (to the point that they could barely be counted as shuffling) but riffle or mash shuffling is quite effective.
Not being able to re-find the video I am refering to I have no way of countering you. also keep in mind that I am not saying that it is to completely randomize, just that the integrity of the land distribution is held well enough that it gives you and advantage.
Everything that I have found online says that 7 shuffles is enough for a standard 52 card deck. By enough shuffles, that means that no matter what state the deck starts in, every possible deck order has a roughly equal probability of ocurring. Because magic plays with 60 cards, throwing in an extra shuffle or 2 is reasonable, but 25 seems entirely unnecessary. Source: Trefethen, L. N., and L. M. Trefethen. "How Many Shuffles to Randomize a Deck of Cards?" Proceedings of the Royal Society. A, Mathematical, Physical, and Engineering Sciences 456.2002 (2000): 2561-568. Web.
For integrity's sake, I always do the things you mentioned I love learning about how to cheat so that I can spot these things out and ensure to my opp that I'm not I always look away, I always cut
That's what I always thought as well. I don't believe so mostly because I've never anyone even Pros cut a deck after it was presented and passed back but you'd think you should be allowed to at least cut it back.
You can, but then your opponent is allowed to cut or shuffle your deck again. I would recommend asking your opponent to give your deck a simple half cut if you suspect cheating. If they refuse get a judge involved.
One thing about tournaments and cheating is that intention matters a lot. If you accidently see a card from your opponent's deck, or draw an extra card or something by mistake, calling the judge on yourself probably won't get you in that much trouble. They will come fix the game, and probably just give you a warning not to do it again, especially if it's pointed out right away, and you call it on yourself.
When I started playing the game more competitively, I noticed I shuffled in a way I always accidentally see the bottom card. I changed it to looking around and not seeing the deck OR just cutting the deck.
Out of curiosity in a tournament environment if you ask your opponent to cut your deck after shuffling it can they refuse? I assume if someone is potentially stacking your deck they will not be very happy about it
I play pretty casual with the same group, I like to play the same deck more than once a night. After the first game is done, I will make sure my lands are more or less dispersed evenly, I do this by making 6 or 8 stacks faced up and trying to even out card types as well, after which I shuffle a few times and cut. Would this be alright for your group? I tend to have better land draw than my friends, but I am just curious, thanks
Mana weaving is not real randomisation. It is considered cheating at all levels beyond the kitchen table. That said, if you are mash shuffling properly afterwards, you are undoing the weave anyway. In essence, wasting yours and everyone's time haha.
@@PleasantKenobi @PleasantKenobi mana weaving? Guess that makes sense, but if I have a large amount of lands, let's say 15+ all together, I could shuffle them into my deck and they don't spread at all, I'll have to mulligan at least twice. Maybe I'm garbage at shuffling lol. If the cards are instead faced down ensures no one knows what is there, spread out my mana, among the stacks, shuffle, I ensure there aren't large groups of mana together and hence randomness is preserved( though that could still happen of course). I do notice similar hand draw cards so it's probably my technique for shuffling needing work. my friends just shuffle but will have to mulligan many more times and just ask to shuffle more since they drew nothing but land or no land. I realize there must be a balance somewhere
As kids we used to compare CMC of the bottom card of our decks to decide who went first. Mutual cheating technically, but one of our friends stopped playing with us when he started running 4x Tunnel vision when most of us were running singleton decks. We would just let him go first without looking at deck bottoms and he suddenly stopped coming around
That little tidbit about Trevor's meltdown is important. The next step after calling out a cheater is dealing with their shameless and manipulative behaviour. They WILL try to gaslight you, make you feel bad/guilty, and use their charisma to take advantage of them. Don't let them. I've had to deal with it in person, and it sucks. It takes a lot of confidence to work through their BS, but you must keep at it. If they're cheating you, they've 100% cheated someone else.
for the YT engagement: i think 4 years is enough. it will be hard to not be wilified after your term is up, and will be on everyone's radar once you are back. If you never come back then the length was meaningless anyway...
Exactly why i don’t play tournaments or even FNM (got a lot of try hards in my area) don’t wanna have to look for shuffle cheating. Playing home tournaments with friends has been a much better experience for me at least.
The only time I would look at the cards in my opponents deck is I have a bad habit of glancing at the bottom card to make sure I am handing the deck back facing the right side. I had a friend who was VERY particular about how his deck was oriented. So I got used to looking at the bottom card to make sure I was giving him his deck back properly. I'm trying to get away from it but that's one habit I have had trouble breaking
I run my fingers across the sleeves opening to do exactly that I've had a judge called once to verify all my cards were the same way (I assume it was due to fear of cards being upsidedown) but I never have had a problem beyond that.
I don't mess with other people's decks or mine but I have essentially cheated by looking at my own deck's bottom card as I shuffle. I try not to now by looking forwards at my opponent and then sometimes blind cutting my own deck at the end of my shuffle before giving my opponent the option but it's definitely a tough habit to break because I'm not super coordinated so my first instinct is to look at my hands. That said I don't play in competition really at all.
Is it acceptable at a tournament to cut the deck after your opponent hands it back to you? Not re-shuffle it of course, just a 2-3 way cut. That seems like it would remedy this particular problem.
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I about want to try the same boat. I want to learn how to better my audio balancing, photo editing forn thumbnails, How to market myself better. All in all how to improve as a content creator.
As a former [L2], I can definitively say that judges are there to help you. We can't play the game for you or advise you on your best outs, but we can certainly shuffle decks when under suspicion of dubious scenarios. You are allowed to ask a judge to shuffle and cut your deck if you believe your opponent isn't doing an adequate job. Once a judge has shuffled, it cannot be touched by another player, unless it needs to be shuffled again. I was called two or three times during an event where we had someone suspected of deck manipulation. It was always my experience that when players DID ask for a judge's intervention, it really struck the fear of god into people who either tried to be disingenuous, were unintentionally doing a poor job, or were leveraging advantage. Please note, sometimes it's late in an event and people are tired. I read once that at a ten round eternal format event, the number of shuffles a player could see can be in the hundreds.
"unintentionally doing a poor job" is what I always have in the back of my head, probably leading to me letting people off easier than they deserve. Some people just have bad motor skills or are generally not well coordinated with their hands and thus look awkward while shuffling.
How is this a good solution? Are there enough judges at every tournament to be shuffling everyone's decks for them? Or to even just shuffle one pair of players decks for them for an entire round? Formats like modern often have multiple shuffles happening per round.
@@Tvboy777 it is useful if you suspect manipulation, not for every single shuffle
@@derekcline950 As I mentioned, if you call a judge once, there is this "fear of God" aura that tends permeate that entire table. I've seen it about four or five times. It's even more prominent if the head judge or [L3] at an event is asked to perform the shuffle. Not every shuffle is necessary, but I would advocate for "spot" shuffle requests when you feel something is off. Discretion is the key here or the judges will mention that people might be overdoing it, but they may also hover around the table for a few minutes too. Remember, we are here to help and maintain a fair, fun, and entertaining play experience for everyone.
@@Tvboy777 I have nerve damage in my right arm. After four rounds of EDH, I find it very difficult to shuffle a 100 card deck. Think about what it's like to go through a 60 card format event with about ten rounds. If the average number of cracked fetches is approx. 10 between both decks per game, that's 30 instances of shuffles per three game match minimum - assuming three games and fetches required for both decks.
People get tired, mistakes are made, and all of us are still human. Hence, unintentionally doing a poor job of shuffling.
You know, I'm really glad that you're actually furthering the discourse on cheating. It makes the game and community better as a whole. Thanks Vince
Thank you for posting this, now that you have highlighted this, there is definitely a guy at my LGS that comes to play the more "competitive" events that is 100% guilty of this every time I play him and it never even really occurred to me the amount of advantage it gives him.
Also, looking forward to meeting you at CommandFest Orlando next week!
Back when I played on the pro tour our testing group all learnt card shark and magic card tricks for the exact purpose of knowing what could be done and what to watch out for. People can't be trusted when money is on the line, if your not sure, always have a judge shuffle decks for you in full view of both players.
Its called magic for a reason. Pro tour is where all the best and most practiced would be.
That's probably also one of the major issues why pros get tempted to cheat so much - they learn how the cheats work to spot them, and when you know, it's that much easier to just...do it and think no one notices.
This is probably another reason why Standard was moved to Arena.
@@McfcxEz and yet they still cant put in a spectator mode to actually have any proper coverage
Being a pretty casual player I sometimes found myself catching a glance at the bottom of my opponents deck. Completely unintentional, the cards just drew my eyes. I had to actively change the way I shuffled to prevent this. I definitely always knew you’re not supposed to do it, I was just being too casual/lazy about it.
I have pretty bad motor skills, and thus I often shuffle with my cards facing my opponent. I've had people remark that they can see my cards before, it really doesn't bother me, but I get where someone might feel they're getting unwarranted information or something
worth noting people can use this chest while also cutting your deck after 'shuffling' it.
its more subtle in its effects, and the cut after shuffling can help remove suspicion, but if they know certain cards will be very important to your deck, or help you against yours specifically, they move as many copies as they can to the top, then cut it into the middle.
everything up til choosing to cut looks the same tho, so all of that stands the same as far as catching someone, but just because they cut after doesn't mean they're definitely not cheating, so if they raised a red flag before that, you're still totally justified in calling a judge
You can also actually shuffle in a way that allows you to cut to a specific card, if you're skilled about it.
@@Tacklepig there's really no end to how devious you can be with card manipulation, just more practice required to get it reliable and subtle. I think the important part of preventing cheating is just making it hard to get away with.
So what I get from this is that when I shuffle I should look directly into my opponent's eyes. Making intense, intimate eye contact. Glaring directly into their soul.
Absolutely.
“There are tutors in Pokémon i believe” on average in Pokemon you will do up to 6 deck searches on your first turn on average
Ive seen this story about 10 times, but Vince's take is always worth the 11th
Can't understand a damn thing he said
I caught a player stacking their deck with all the lands in their sleeves left at the top of the sleeves and all non lands placed deep in the sleeves. That way when the deck was placed on the table with the open end of the sleeves towards them, they could easily see where the lands were. Making it super easy to decide if they wanted to keep a draw. The edges of the cards are easy to see when they are not deep in the sleeves
I know personally I have been told my shuffling looks extremely suspicious simply cause i look down some times since i drop cards so often. But all of my opponents have told me that they know i wasnt cheating simply cause i would cut the deck multiple times and ask them to do the same. Being honest and upfront helps alot for us that are just bad with shuffling.
I agree that cheating should result in a lifetime ban from competitive play. 4years isn’t enough, and a lifetime ban would be much bigger deterrent from cheating.
In Monopoly: Deal, I’ve stack the deck before. I also once accidentally stacked the deck against myself and still won. Deal is the card game form of Monopoly, but without the trading.
That was fascinating. I've played against some weird shuffling over the years. I didn't suspect anything at the time and still don't, I play super low sakes, but I'll try to remember and keep an eye out. Now if you can do a video about how I get screwed on shuffle in Arena...
Lol MTGO is pretty bad too. I'll have a one of in my deck and a higher than it should be have it in my opening hand or at minimum draw it within the first few turns.
@@XCodes oh doesn't surprise me I won't even remotely deny arena is Garbo and a predatory application. That's why I quit playing it and switched to MTGO.
@@XCodes oh its not even just forced flooding, it is a proven fact that Arena will try its best to force you into a 50% win rate. and some decks can only get that with land screwing. i have literally watched games where someone has 2 lands after drawing 15+ cards past their starting 7. and that's with the supposed "hand smoother" to prevent non-games.
in paper/MTGO that's just bad luck, in a game with a system admitted to try to force fun games that's planned.
I have caught a few people cheating and stacking their deck and refusing to present
Another thing while mash shuffling is it's easy to accidentally not randomize the top/bottom. As a rule I try to make sure each shuffle that as I split and then mash the deck that the top and bottom card are changing. Not saying that's what happened in the video but a tip for new players
This is a big point, it's really easy to get caught in the trap of how the mechanics of shuffling actually affect a deck and fail to randomize entire sections because you're moving roughly the same sequence of cards around in the same pattern. In a casual setting this often just leads to silly or funny instances of "oh wow, I really botched that shuffle" as you draw lands for 6 turns after a 5 land keep and die a slow, sad death. When you get into situations where a prize is on the line though it can be both an unintended detriment to yourself, and either intended or unintended detriment to your opponent.
For sure. I know that commander decks feel like some cards come to you more often, but there's other times where I feel like every single time I see a deck, without tutors even, there's one or two cards that come out every game without fail.
My personal favorite way to avoid this sort of issue is to split the deck into roughly 4 or 5 parts visually, taking the top 20-25% of cards and mash shuffling into the bottom half of the deck. Then, repeat for the other 4-5 visual sections. You can even repeat this process from the bottom as well for a very random mash shuffle.
People always look at me like a monster when I am playing in modern/legacy events because I bridge shuffle my deck. I will not bridge an opponent’s deck, generally I just do a cut when my opponent presents, but I bridge shuffle my deck. If you do it correctly, you won’t bend it damage your expensive cards. Plus, I do enjoy seeing the look of horror in the faces of my opponents when I’m playing Ice Station Zebra in legacy.
"Underground dojo keyboard cagefighters" is an ICONIC post in magic history
Honestly one of the most awkward things is when your opponent is shuffling in a way such that you can see all of the cards, whether its your deck or theirs. It's like, do I look away? Do I tell them to shuffle it differently? Do I just take in the information they're giving me for free? Always kind of awkward.
If they're giving you the information, feel no issue with using it. If you want to be a good person, point out that they're giving you information. But you do have a duty to stare intently at your opponent's deck as they shuffle. After all, if you aren't watching, how can you know they shuffled properly and aren't cheating?
Seems like an appropriate place to also say: if you “pile shuffle” to “distribute” lands evenly, you’re stacking your deck illegally. If you shuffle afterwards in such a way that the pile shuffle affected the final position of the cards, you didn’t shuffle properly. So there’s no point “pile shuffling” your lands. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
Pile shuffle is an odd case, if your sorting lands out and using them as a separate pile to put 1 land 3 nonland 1 land 3 nonland definitely cheating. Making random piles facedown to shuffle because you feel clumping has happened and you want to break it up should be totally ok though
@@peadrianlastname but in that case you’re using a specific method of organizing the cards to influence the final result - ie not randomizing. If you’re faithfully randomizing the cards via a sound shuffling method, the original order of the card should have no (direct intentional) effect on the final order. If you pile shuffle to break up perceived clumping, you’re stacking the deck, albeit poorly
@@Cornelius135 Pile shuffles are actually useful to count the cards in your deck, especially between games. It's fine as long as you shuffle regularly afterwards, though I agree any pile shuffle shouldn't impact the final positions significantly. If a player feels it prevents clumping, that's just superstition not cheating if they also shuffle properly.
Meanwhile, I'm so clumsy at FNM, I end up accidently revealing my own deck, cutting weirdly (e.g., two on bottom only), or momentarily dropping cards. My opponents think I'm up to something with slight of hand, but I'm actually just derping it.
I had someone do this to me at the KTK prerelease at my LGS, where the store was giving away an Unlimited Mox Jet plus boxes to the winner. I mulled to 4, 3, and 4 hitting zero lands before those keeps. I'd have probably been suspicious, but this was a midnight prerelease and I'd won a Modern FNM and worked a full day prior to the event; I was exhausted. We were in like round 6 or 7 of Swiss and we were nearing 6 AM (the finals didn't end until after 10 AM). I still took him down on both mulls to 4, as his deck wasn't very well built or powerful and I just had a reasonable curve out both games (which, in fairness, is what I build my deck to do as opposed to running a higher curve).
Had my semifinals and finals opponents at that tournament somewhat hint that they thought I was shuffle cheating. "Your opponents seem to flood a lot." Well, yeah, you're all playing the 19 lands and 1+ Dorks/Banners in a 40 card deck that the pros recommended for sealed. You've got roughly a 50% chance on any given turn to draw a mana source in that situation; of course you're flooding. I thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard, because I certainly wasn't cheating. Of course, my finals opponent that said it was probably just salty because I was his only two GAME losses of the 11 round tournament... and I 2-0'd him.
During an original Theros pre release many moons ago now I suspect I was shuffle cheated. Sure it was just a pre release but there was a difference in prizes between 1st 2nd and 3rd. I didn't suspect anything at the time as I wasn't into playing the game competitively and didn't think anyone would feel the need to cheat at a pre release. It later turned out my opponent was suspected to cheat in a variety of ways and was finally caught and subsequently banned from the major LGS's in the city at some point after the Theros set released.
I was one of the traders at Command Fest and only recognised you a bit to late carrying round the Giant Card xD was so cool to see you
Learning magic tricks in general helps you pick out people who know these tricks as well. I ask competitive players to watch Chris Ramsey in particular, he’s very experienced in slight of hand and shows a lot of tricks in slow motion to break it down.
This is wild to me as an EDH player. Being a singleton casual format my friends / playgroup got into a whacky habit of grabbing each others decks and showing off the bottom card to the rest of the table just to goof around. We all did it and no hard feelings were had. Being a casual player that I am the levels people go to in order to cheat is wild.
Pretty funny story here.
I used practice magic tricks and sleight of hand a lot, so one card slips like this got very smooth very quickly. I got into magic when I was 13, and eventually got my friends into it at 15. My friend - now wife - Sadie had just built her first deck and could not for the life of her shyffle into a fair hand to play. She got so discouraged about it that she was about to quit on the spot, until I offered to shuffle for her. I did a couple of splits, riffle shuffled a foothills (yikes), and thumbed two lands to the top for her. She finally got a hand to play with and was so excited! I, however, got my ass kicked haha.
Her and I have been playing magic since that day and I still haven't told her about it. Every now and then I might stack a hand for her just to make her smile haha.
"That's brings a joyful tear to my eye."
Still wrong
If I ask my opponent to cut my deck, and they start vigorously shuffling it instead, that’s already incredibly suspicious
Shuffling your opponents deck, instead of just cutting, in a competitive setting is normal- but VIGOROUSLY shuffling is suspect.
I remember when this happened and was blown away by how subtle it was
In my experience the most common cheats are misunderstanding cheats. Just the other week I was playing at a new store and I played against a player who would shuffle for a while then he flicked through his deck to make sure the land and spells were well distributed before mash shuffling it once and presenting it to be cut. Had to explain to him why this was super iffy.
Another I remember from years ago at a prerelease when a super new player would manaweave straight up after every game before mash shuffling, though at least he did it a few times. Struggled a lot more to explain to him why this wasn’t okay as he thought it was fine so long as he randomised it afterwards.
There was a game, can't remember the name, that came out on steam where the central mechanic is being a cheat at card games in the Victorian era. I watched a whole playthrough of it and was astounded how many real techniques (with silly names) they employed to demonstrate how one can actually stack decks, palm cards, etc., etc.
Card Shark! Just came out last month
I’ve definitely “noticed” cards from my own deck when shuffling, but not intentionally, and I always look away and reshuffle any time I catch a glimpse of a card. I’ve only ever been a casual magic player, though.
Technically, best practice for proper randomization is a riffle shuffle-strip combo. Unfortunately, everyone gets a little upset when you riffle a couple thousand dollars.
To be fair to the casual commander players, shuffling 100 double sleeved cards and not seeing any can be hard
Literally getting an ad every 90 seconds, sometimes even more often. This is the only channel where this happens to me.
I've been putting more ads on my videos because it tends to still only serve one or two to most people. This is really weird that your getting all of the ad spots full filled. Genuinely sorry about that. :(
The background music had me thinking a cat was in a nearby room.
Woah, just realized that I've been glancing at my cards since I shuffle the same way. I never thought it'd be a huge deal since I mainly play commander and that it wouldn't matter much in a 100 card format, but I will definitely start shuffling at an angle so that my cards arn't visible. I usually play commander but I do play sealed and draft at my LGS from time to time so I will make sure to change the way I shuffle so I don't get suspected of cheating lol thanks for the heads up on this!
If you're playing casual commander I don't think too many people will care. When I'm playing with friends and need to shuffle I straight up will look at the top card just cause I'm curious to see what I would've drawn had I not shuffled. I don't really see that as cheating because I am shuffling and it's a singleton format.
"you f*cking doughnut" that killed me💀💀💀🤣🤣🤣
I remember in my first GP I got top 8 in, Everyone was paranoid from the Jared Betcher scandal and we were all paranoid about shuffling. So Many dropped decks in shuffling trying not to look down at opponents deck
huh i just realized i do the "don't look at the deck while shuffling" without ever realizing. Didn't even know that was proper form
One of the things I like about Flesh and Blood is you know what your opponent is on before the game starts so the advantage of getting a peak at an opponents deck is marginal.
Also, mana screw/ flood isn't really a thing in FAB so false shuffling cards to the top or bottom is less effective.
@@dingdongs5208 Unless you are Oldhim or Bravo. Then I can I'll take all the blues I can get. You are right though. Different heroes can brick more often.
Upside with Pokémon, if an opponent shuffles you deck without doing a cut and the end you are allowed to cut it yourself!
I do this anyway for mtg. i just shuffled my deck already. if you wanna cut it or shuffle it again to make sure i didnt cheat but then dont allow me to cut after you then what is even the point? so i always cut if my opp shuffles. most of the time though i find people are fine just cutting your deck after you shuffle
SCG Indianapolis 2013 (maybe 2014), I was X-3 going into the last round of swiss (maybe X-4, we weren't in top 8 contention, but contention for a chunk of money break point). We shuffle/present our decks, and I see them shuffling my deck real weird, of note they piled shuffled their own deck, as did I so when presented to me, I did the same. They did not pile shuffle my deck. When they returned my deck I picked it up and just gave it a few riffle shuffles before presenting it back. Confused they picked up my deck and repeated their odd shuffling of my deck; I locked eye contact the whole time. They gave my deck back and I riffle shuffled again, now their face was wrought with confusion. I put my deck back down and just said, "would you like me to call a judge?" They were so clearly shaken and tilted that the match was almost like playing Timmy at an FNM (they kept a poor hand game 1, and ran a whip of erebos out into my on-board Whip with keening apparition in grave game 2). I'm not sure how I 100% KNEW they were cheating, but sometimes calling out the cheater just gets them so off their own game.
Honestly, when I first got into MTG a couple of years ago I didn't realize that I was shuffling at a kind of weird angle and sometimes could see the bottom card of my library, stuff like that. Especially since I stared down and don't make eye contact with people, happened a fair amount lol. I got started playing during lockdown, and it wasn't until I'd been playing like a year and went to my first in-person event that it clicked for me that it was a problem. Still occasionally fall into that, and I found the best thing to do is just call myself out on it. I'd hate for an opponent to even think I was trying to get an advantage like that just because I'm awkward and don't know how my body works sometimes
Same here it's just how I shuffle naturally and it just feels right, but I guess having that tiny bit of hidden knowledge does go a long way and is actually a huge advantage.
didn't realize it but you remember it?...gtfo...you knew what you were doing.
@@AndresColumbus Nope, I genuinely didn't. We all do plenty of things by accident or that we don't realize has certain implications without meaning to or doing it willfully. Remembering something also doesn't equate to doing it on purpose or setting out to cheat.
When you cut as well you could always cut into at least 3 piles and make sure a middle pile ends up on top as the middle as the top and bottom are the easiest areas to manipulate.
11:36 Even after all these years I can't read Trevor's whiny rage post without cracking up. The mispellings, the random/incorrect capitalization, the lack of punctuation. It's honestly copypasta worthy.
I caught a guy putting random cards face down as morphs because he didn’t know you had to reveal when the game is over.
I have always been under the impression that if your opponent shuffles your deck but doesn’t cut it you can cut it yourself. I personally do this and it helps against people trying to stack the top cards of your deck.
You can reshuffle your deck if you'd like.
I've also always thought this - that there's a right to a final cut. Basically, if your opponent shuffles, they have to cut in the end or you get to cut. Apparently it's not an actual rule, but I think it should be.
This is CRAZY!
But I guess it makes sense when money & prizes are on the line.
*Thanks for the Content* !
When I was brand new, I used to peek by accident because I was bad at shuffling. It's something that, as silly as it sounds, practicing your shuffle can completely eliminate. Now this never resulted in free information that I could do anything with, at the time, because I was altogether kind of bad at the game back then, but it's something I'm very glad I practiced out of.
Over the last 10ish years I've had people do things like this, and others like a random scry out of nowhere. (Where there was no instance of scrying_ When I called judge the store owner just shrugged and said that everyone was super casual and people thought I was an asshole. That store is no longer running,
Nice vid. I prefer a single cut in the dead center after shuffling. Just as people can, with practice, move known cards to the top they can also move them to the bottom. If the cards are on the bottom that 4th or 5th cut can move the whole stack to the top. With a single cut in the center you'd have to be Ricky Jay to cheat something to the top.
I occasionally look down because I sometimes struggle aligning the cards even when actively trying to look away - so
I always offer the cut to players.
I got a person disqualified from a Dominaria pre-release not for shuffle cheating but for having an impossible pool... every creature in his deck was a wizard and there were 3 of and 4 of copies of uncommon wizards and even duplicate rares in the deck, it was the 3rd event of the weekend and this was a guy who had been known in previous to have possibly brought outside cards into pre-release events from previous events. He got banned, and I havent seen him back at the LGS since then.
I'm no expert but I would recommend that no matter who shuffles the deck the final action should be a random cut.
Oh yeah, I've been wise to this for a while. Now I can show this to friends who are new to the game! Newbies are really susceptible to this kind of cheat.
Yugioh has the "final cut" rule where if your opponent opts to shuffle your deck, you're allowed to perform a final cut after that shuffle
we should really get that
This video triggered me cause I've been accused of this cheat when I was a nearly brand new player.
FNM. Standard. I'm on Grixis Scarab God (borrowed from a friend) vs Selesnya Pummeler. I get hit with a Field of Ruin, and go and grab a mountain (last basic in the deck). I wasn't a good shuffler yet so I was looking down at my deck to shuffle. My opponent had been waving off the cut when I offered it to them, so by this point in game 3 I just set it down after my shuffle. He immediately says "pause the game" and calls the judge. He exclaims to the judge that he thinks I'm shuffle cheating and I'm explaining how I'm a noob.
The judge asked to review the game state. My opponent is at 7 life and I have (after blocks) 4 damage coming through next turn. The judge looked at my top card... It's the last Glorybringer left in my deck, which would have been lethal. That pretty much sealed the deal for the judge (since I also grabbed a mountain) and I was dq'd. I never played standard again or at that card shop. Pioneer ftw!
I never understood why a judge isnt at the table with the players and have the judge shuffle the decks if it's high stakes to avoid this sort of cheating.. is there just not enough judges around?
The number of judges at an event is never close enough to the number of games for that to be a viable option.
When you're shuffling, just give your opponent the death stare. Put the fear in them.
Seriously, money makes people do terrible things. For the purposes of MTG, it not only is unfair but it takes the magic (pun intended) out of it. MTG is meant to be fun and if someone is making it where their opponent can't have fun, that's just shitty.
Even when I'm playing commander, I have to look away to make sure I'm not glancing at my cards. If I do accidentally see a card, more shuffling happens.
Cheating in a professional setting should be an automatic life ban. There's a time and a place for second chances but, if we look back at cheaters in MTG, they will just do so again.
General Kenobi, you are wise beyond your years. I really like this video
Appreciate this. Pretty sure I was cheated at Standard event a few years ago. Long story short, game three, I had stomped the guy game one, game two he barely squeaked by as I was a land short, I literally had him sweating (it was the final round of the event). He side in 4 cards, he had been 2 colors the entire round. Right out the gate Game 3, he finds his sided in third color source and the two back to back bullets to my deck, which were also in a third color he hadn't been playing all round. He blew me out in 4 turns. The guy went from literally talking mad shit pregame, to stressing and sweating as I had him by the balls game 1 and 2 and then suddenly game 3 he just bulldozed me out of nowhere and back to being cocky. He even got up immediately after I conceded, scooped up everything, grabbed his prize and bolted out of the store
Well you've also just accurately described getting sideboard well by your opponent to be fair. I've had games where I'm the other guy MANY times and I'm not cheating lmao
L1 here, as someone who judges 40+ player FNMs, stepping away from the table makes communication infinatly easier. You avoid the vague wording players use to not give away information.
Holy cow that was difficult to see that cheat. It’s no wonder he was able to get away with that.
I played at the cappenna prerelease at an LGS a little bit back, and had an opponent who was around 16-17, kind of seemed like a knowitall and had two ledger shredders in his deck. it’s low stakes, prerelease, so i let him shuffle up and draw his hand game one, when he drew both of his ledger shredders. then again in game two, he drew both his ledger shredders again! what incredible luck!
we went to game three and he started to draw his hand quickly before i was done shuffling and i said loudly i’d like to cut his deck, made him put his hand back on his deck and cut. and he drew 0 ledger shredders and i stomped him. moral of the story, speak up, make sure you cut decks, especially if you think someone’s playing fishy
While not intentionally cheating, I was garbage at shuffling when I was younger. It took way longer than necessary and I had to actively watch the deck and my hands to not accidentally make the deck fly everywhere. My brother sat me down and taught me how to actually shuffle after our first game of commander together.
This was a really interesting and unique video. Really appreciate the content here.
I showed my friend group my false riffle shuffle, false cut, and side shuffle top force so they would know I'm not going to use my "magic" skills during the poker game... They were hesitant, but they understood that if I wanted to cheat, I likely could. "I don't want to have to be watching you all the time." I laughed because they should be watching everyone regardless 😂.
Wow 😳 I've never seen anyone shuffle my deck when cutting nor have I ever done it. I'll just simply cut the deck into different halves or multiple stacks then re-stack it. If I ever saw someone actually shuffle my deck I'd have gotten suspicious without ever knowing about this trick. Glad you made a video like this.
I too have never shuffled someone’s deck beyond a simple cut. If someone picked up my deck like that, I’d be put off. I haven’t played in anything beyond FNM though
Not sure about the current rules but it was mandatory at comp rules enforcement to shuffle your opponent's deck when they presented it
Thanks PK, I’m an MtG noob, so this kind of info is super helpful 🤩👏
There was this guy at a friend's LGS who would put a card on top every time he fetched, then shuffle while leaving the card there (taking advantage of the fact that no one ever cut decks at FNM)
Aaaand this is why I feel like high-end competitive paper Magic is, ultimately, kinda borked. The advantages to be gained from card manipulation are *so* huge, and can be *so* hard to detect (there's over a century of deck manipulation techniques to draw from!) that I don't see how you stop it short of making every judge an expert in card sleight of hand.
There is a guy in the town I live in that I constantly catch looking at his cards when he shuffles. I just move my hand in-between his deck and him.
I saw another hard to spot shuffle cheat primarily for limited. it might have been nikachu's video. primarily for limited but probably also works for 60 card formats
it is pile shuffling with 5 piles and done twice. beforehand you have to have your lands and other cards seperated and then one put on top of the other. The benefit is that if you do that, your deck will have a really good distribution of lands throughout your deck. the distribution is so good that you will have to mash-shuffle 20+ times in order to break the "sorting" you have done. basicly if I see my opponent do 5 piles I will mash-shuffle 25 times just to be sure.
the video also shoved how to reverse the process as long as no further tampering have been made after the two 5 pile shufflings have been made.
BTW: great video and I think it is very important that content creators put the spotlight on the shady side of card games once in a while.
IIRC shuffling 7-8 times is sufficient to fully randomize a 60 card deck from any starting configuration
I think that you need to do the casino shuffle to get that effect. the one where you put all the cards on the table and then move your hands around in circles. I do not think a legacy/vintage player will allow that :)
the side mashing (the one from the video) is the one most commonly used. I do not know the name of the shuffle where you essentially cut the deck multiple times while have it your hand. but that is even less effective most of the time.
@@Glornie A casino wash is the only way to get a fully random deck in one iteration, but 7-8 riffles or mashes will also fully randomize a deck assuming you're not doing perfect faro shuffles. You are correct that overhand shuffles are worse (to the point that they could barely be counted as shuffling) but riffle or mash shuffling is quite effective.
Not being able to re-find the video I am refering to I have no way of countering you.
also keep in mind that I am not saying that it is to completely randomize, just that the integrity of the land distribution is held well enough that it gives you and advantage.
Everything that I have found online says that 7 shuffles is enough for a standard 52 card deck. By enough shuffles, that means that no matter what state the deck starts in, every possible deck order has a roughly equal probability of ocurring. Because magic plays with 60 cards, throwing in an extra shuffle or 2 is reasonable, but 25 seems entirely unnecessary.
Source:
Trefethen, L. N., and L. M. Trefethen. "How Many Shuffles to Randomize a Deck of Cards?" Proceedings of the Royal Society. A, Mathematical, Physical, and Engineering Sciences 456.2002 (2000): 2561-568. Web.
For integrity's sake, I always do the things you mentioned
I love learning about how to cheat so that I can spot these things out and ensure to my opp that I'm not
I always look away, I always cut
My brother and I reshuffle if we accidentally see a card - be it for fun or tuning what is the point in playing if the game is compromised?
Is it allowed to simple cut (halves inverted) your own deck after your opponent did a shuffle cut?
That's what I always thought as well. I don't believe so mostly because I've never anyone even Pros cut a deck after it was presented and passed back but you'd think you should be allowed to at least cut it back.
You can, but then your opponent is allowed to cut or shuffle your deck again. I would recommend asking your opponent to give your deck a simple half cut if you suspect cheating. If they refuse get a judge involved.
One thing about tournaments and cheating is that intention matters a lot. If you accidently see a card from your opponent's deck, or draw an extra card or something by mistake, calling the judge on yourself probably won't get you in that much trouble. They will come fix the game, and probably just give you a warning not to do it again, especially if it's pointed out right away, and you call it on yourself.
When I started playing the game more competitively, I noticed I shuffled in a way I always accidentally see the bottom card. I changed it to looking around and not seeing the deck OR just cutting the deck.
We need official shuffle rules to require a hard cut of 2 or 3 timea that moves a significant chunk of the deck around after any mashing or riffling.
the shots of that cheaters hands shuffling infuriates me
Out of curiosity in a tournament environment if you ask your opponent to cut your deck after shuffling it can they refuse? I assume if someone is potentially stacking your deck they will not be very happy about it
I play pretty casual with the same group, I like to play the same deck more than once a night. After the first game is done, I will make sure my lands are more or less dispersed evenly, I do this by making 6 or 8 stacks faced up and trying to even out card types as well, after which I shuffle a few times and cut. Would this be alright for your group? I tend to have better land draw than my friends, but I am just curious, thanks
Mana weaving is not real randomisation. It is considered cheating at all levels beyond the kitchen table.
That said, if you are mash shuffling properly afterwards, you are undoing the weave anyway. In essence, wasting yours and everyone's time haha.
@@PleasantKenobi @PleasantKenobi mana weaving? Guess that makes sense, but if I have a large amount of lands, let's say 15+ all together, I could shuffle them into my deck and they don't spread at all, I'll have to mulligan at least twice. Maybe I'm garbage at shuffling lol. If the cards are instead faced down ensures no one knows what is there, spread out my mana, among the stacks, shuffle, I ensure there aren't large groups of mana together and hence randomness is preserved( though that could still happen of course). I do notice similar hand draw cards so it's probably my technique for shuffling needing work. my friends just shuffle but will have to mulligan many more times and just ask to shuffle more since they drew nothing but land or no land. I realize there must be a balance somewhere
As kids we used to compare CMC of the bottom card of our decks to decide who went first. Mutual cheating technically, but one of our friends stopped playing with us when he started running 4x Tunnel vision when most of us were running singleton decks. We would just let him go first without looking at deck bottoms and he suddenly stopped coming around
That little tidbit about Trevor's meltdown is important. The next step after calling out a cheater is dealing with their shameless and manipulative behaviour.
They WILL try to gaslight you, make you feel bad/guilty, and use their charisma to take advantage of them. Don't let them.
I've had to deal with it in person, and it sucks. It takes a lot of confidence to work through their BS, but you must keep at it. If they're cheating you, they've 100% cheated someone else.
Little do they know I bought David Blaine’s masterclass and have 5 jewled lotuses hidden inside my mouth
Vince san, there be reason why I use the term "neck, not stomach" in my in-person gameplay. They no do, officer of tournament get summoned.
for the YT engagement: i think 4 years is enough. it will be hard to not be wilified after your term is up, and will be on everyone's radar once you are back. If you never come back then the length was meaningless anyway...
Exactly why i don’t play tournaments or even FNM (got a lot of try hards in my area) don’t wanna have to look for shuffle cheating. Playing home tournaments with friends has been a much better experience for me at least.
The only time I would look at the cards in my opponents deck is I have a bad habit of glancing at the bottom card to make sure I am handing the deck back facing the right side. I had a friend who was VERY particular about how his deck was oriented. So I got used to looking at the bottom card to make sure I was giving him his deck back properly. I'm trying to get away from it but that's one habit I have had trouble breaking
I run my fingers across the sleeves opening to do exactly that I've had a judge called once to verify all my cards were the same way (I assume it was due to fear of cards being upsidedown) but I never have had a problem beyond that.
I don't mess with other people's decks or mine but I have essentially cheated by looking at my own deck's bottom card as I shuffle. I try not to now by looking forwards at my opponent and then sometimes blind cutting my own deck at the end of my shuffle before giving my opponent the option but it's definitely a tough habit to break because I'm not super coordinated so my first instinct is to look at my hands. That said I don't play in competition really at all.
Is it acceptable at a tournament to cut the deck after your opponent hands it back to you? Not re-shuffle it of course, just a 2-3 way cut. That seems like it would remedy this particular problem.
What is the term for shuffling an opponent's deck after splitting and reversing 1/2 the split, so almost every other card is upside down?
In my play group we call that a Mulkey
what about mana weaving before you shuffle or while you yourself are shuffling see a big clump of lands?
Are you joking?
@@PleasantKenobi I guess I should have been more clear. Its something I see all the time at FNM. Like they dont even realize that its kinda cheating.
when playing against shuffle cheat pod play Maralen of the Mornsong get out op agent asap and point it out each time for endless control of them
Does Skillshare offer any courses about cheating at card games? After watching this video, I'm suddenly interested
Is it illegal to ask your opponent to cut your deck as the last step of the shuffle before handing your deck back to you?
Trying to give yourself an unkeepable hand and accidently dealing a banger lol
Pretty good tips. I'll have to try this one out