Editing Word Count | The Fix for Both Underwriters and Overwriters
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- Let's chat word counts!
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Hey guys! I just want to add one thing. In my diagram, I listed a bunch of possible story elements that could appear on each level, but I just want to clarify that they won't ONLY appear there, those were just some examples. You could have a small beat of backstory for example, even though I placed it on the plot level (flashbacks).
Ok😎
Some of my chapters lack description and depth. Other ones are ok. The rest are overwritten AF lol. I’ve discovered it actually depends on how I feel. When I’m in the mood for writing I can spend 5K words describing a door
same
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I laughed my ass of XD
So true
I'm beginning to understand the magnitude of why you consider your old writing as so bad. The amount of knowledge you have on writing seems immense to an amateur like me ^^ Helpful as ever, Shaelin!
As an underwriter, I COMPLETELY relate to the difficulty of line editing. It's a painful process.
The struggleeeee of being an underwriter who overdescribes
Struggleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I overwrite all areas. Used to be an underwriter. But forced myself to change cause it was easier to cut than add. And found my work to be better.
I don't care about overwriting but I amm trying to avoid underwritting
I tend to be an underwriter and I don't find many videos that discuss this topic, most usually talk to helping overwriters. Thank you for this!
Same, we underwriters seem to be few and far between!
I always get complimented for having clear prose. I underwrite on a beat level, when it comes to description. I'm an over writer when it comes to dialogue.
You've described me to a tee
Shaelin, for me, you're the best AuthorTuber I'm subscribed to. You really explain everything I needed to understand in creative writing. Thank you!
Thank you!
Your diction is soooo cristal clear, its impressive how you can manage such level of complexity of explanation at such a speed. Please don't take this as mockery, it is a compliment. By the way, your videos are great, really helpful :) thks a lot
THIS IS GENIUS. I’ve always been an “overwriter” and when I tried to shorten something I wrote recently I was just focussing on line edits and I cut frustratingly little. I knew my plot was overcomplicated but had no idea how to simplify it - will definitely be trying this method. Thanks so much Shaelin ;)
wow, shaelin! when i clicked on this video i thought, what new could she possibly have to say on over-/underwriting? the answer is: a lot. eye opening as ever! thank you so much!
Thank you, I’ve just finished a chat on the phone with someone about how I’m 20,000 words short in my underwriting. I put the phone down and open UA-cam and here you are... Thanks.
Shaelin Is the best authortuber. I keep watching your videos back to back whenever I'm on a writing slump.
This was so relatable, I am an underwriter and it’s hard to cut words but I love how you talked about the importance of quality.
I'm glad you talked about this. Ever since I heard about the underwriter/overwriter thing I was kind of confused over which one I was and I kept being told to figure that out. But sometimes I don't write enough and only scratch the surface of my plotpoints, while other times I ramble on and on. I'm all for thinking more complex! The pyramid you did is a good way of thinking about it, I'll definitely use it when I'm in the editing phase
This was SO helpful and broke the story down in a way that I'd never seen before! I definitely consider myself and over-writer for most parts, but your advice really lifted a burned from my shoulders. I had been stressing about fitting into the 'acceptable' word count and compromising my novel, but this gave me so many thing to think about when looking at my novel to make sure it is the best quality writing I can make it! I also might need to go through my manuscript to see where I might be under-writing some things....
The video came at the right time! I'm a chronic underwriter- it's not that I don't have enough content to write, it's accurately describing what's going on without being too concise. It's like there's a battle within me between the Copywriter I was trained to be (where I'm as succinct with my words as possible) and the writer that I need to be that is free to expand.
Hi Shaelin, amazing video as ever - could you possibly do one explaining the process of writing an epilogue? I feel like there is so much focus on prologues so your own comments on an epilogue would be much appreciated. Thank you for your new amazing content!
Back when I was an undergrad, I remember underwriting the endings for short fiction assignments due to overwriting everything that came before. So, my endings were rushed and underdeveloped. And even then, I struggled reaching word count or page count by a couple hundred words or 2-3 pages (had a hard time writing past 8pgs). So, this is definitely a helpful vid.
What a helpful way to look at this issue! Thanks, Shaelin!
This was really useful. Thank you. It's true; we get so caught up in word count sometimes that it can be easy to talk ourselves out of line editing our work effectively.
I relate to this, as an overwriter who’s currently in the process of revising my 2 books, with future plans to completely rewrite my first book. (My three books are all part of a trilogy known as The Stacey Williams Chronicles). A lot of what you said about editing for overwriters, is pretty much what I’ve been doing recently with my own work. Also, like you, I’ve become much more self aware with criticing my writing. This was a great video, By the way.
I've never clicked on a video faster than this.
SAME
same
Same
I had basically stopped watching writer / author videos until you came back. Another great video worth my time, thank you for the great thoughts!
I'm editing the draft of my first novel right now, and I'm thankful that I found this video. I've always considered my writing style to be minimalistic with not much environmental description but a huge focus on dialogue and plot. I've got 125,000 words that I'd like to get down to around 110,000 (because I hear it's very difficult for first time authors to publish books with high word counts). First things first, time to take out all the plot points that don't need to be there.
Hey, that thing you mentioned about scene beats helped me fix a chapter I was working on. TYSM!
I really like this approach to the idea of underwriting and overwriting, and to break it down into its component parts. These parts of a story are all woven together but they aren't all the same, and you need to examine each part separately. It's like... I can't think of the word... like a decorative woven fabric... sometimes they tell stories too... people like to hang them... anyway, it's like that, and I'm definitely gunna consider this when I get to the editing stage of my story
Your videos are awesome! I started writing short stories again in the past year, and I have learned and improved since I discovered your videos. My first book is in the editing phase, and I'm for waiting to receive the author review. I hope to be on the market by April. Your videos boosted my confidence in my writing skills to complete my book. A big Thank you!!!
I wonder which one George RR Martin is......
This is one of the most helpful writing videos I’ve watched. Thanks for sharing this model and explaining how to use it.
I love this system. I'm about right on a plot and sentence level, but tend to massively underwrite on scene and beat levels. I'm definitely going to quote this framework next time I'm working with a critique partner who under or over writes.
This was super helpful!! I think I tend to fall into the overwriter side because I aim to have more in draft 1 so that when it comes to cutting it's not as difficult... which in essence just makes my drafting experience longer LOL this video has definitely put it into perspective for me about quality over quantity. A first draft is just the beginning and there is plenty of time to add/subtract and perfect the story!
That's such a great way to look at this. Thank you so much for your consistently high quality content!
Admire what you do. I've always avoided thinking about the technical side of writing, that I would rely on problem-solving to find a way to express what I want to say, but ten years later, I've ended up not having said anything. Now I've been trying to say something, but aside from leaving notes with ideas, still haven't said anything. I think I'll check writing productivity next.
Thank you! That is a helpful way to look at it. Two years ago I finally decided to actually start writing, and I've had some trouble (fantasy novels ending in the 20 - 40 thousand word range) due to underwriting. I suppose it's possible that I'm an over-writer of stories that should be short instead of novels, but I have a feeling it is a case of not developing my plot well enough before I start.
HEY SHAELIN!!!! YAY for another video! I always get so excited when I get notifications from you
The exact video i need!! You’re the best Shaelin!
This could be the best video you’ve ever done.
Thank you for making this video because now i understand that im an underwriter. this is actually very helpful.
This has been so helpful! With novels, I'm an underwriter. My descriptions and world building are fine, but dialogue and character development really lack and need to be expanded on in a lot of areas. In short fiction, I'm an overwriter. Probably because we have word limits for our assignments that I find hard to stick to: three pieces that are only 500 words, one major assignment that is 2500. I can go through now though and count the beats, see which ones aren't necessary. I'm confident on the sentence level at least, I know my bad habits a lot better now. The biggest issue is I say "that" way too often.
I often overwrite in short fiction more than novels too, it's so weird! But, those are also some really short word limits! Dang that would be hard to work within.
It's definitely not my favourite thing and it's hard to avoid having an ending that feels rushed, but our lecturer is only paid for one hour per student's whole body of work throughout the semester. Not just one piece, but all their pieces. So shorter word counts help with that. She spends more time than that on all of us which is nice of her because it's unpaid work. The university just has no idea how long it actually takes to critique someone else's writing.
Thank you so much, I needed this. Seems like I'm an overwriter on every level you mentioned, my wordcount is at 285k right now and I'm not even halfway done. By now, every single new sentence I write is giving me anxiety, because it looks like I won't be able to finish my book before 350k. Well, editing this is gonna be fun ':D (Sorry if there are any mistakes, English isn't my native language :3 But thanks again for the extremely helpful video!)
wow this is so helpful, thank you for breaking this down this way!
My tendencies are to overwrite on the scene and sentence level (especially the sentence level). I need to cut a lot the these areas.
I plot very throughly my plots so I'm confident they're as tight as they can get while I am the writer I am nowadays. The beat level... I think I'm alright? Hmm 🤔
This video was very helpful, Shaelin! Thanks! 💘
One thing that been helping me if when I really want to get into world building but I'm afraid of being to worry and telling to much I go write notes on characters of towns or other things. Then i could cut and paste if i feel it pertinent or use my notes to sprinkle in pertinent info and leave the rest of the icebergunder the sea level
WOOOOW I absolutely loved this! Very great explanation, thanks! :D
I always struggle with scenes in a short story. Sometimes they seem clear but in some stories you can barely tell them apart? Also never really understood beats as sometimes that word is used to mean the big turns in a novel.
Could you make a video on short story scenes and beats...? That'd be so helpful to many, I think. Thanks for your videos!
I really needed this one. Thank you so much
I'm 100% an underwriter. Only managed 1 chapter that's come close to a full chapter, though realistically speaking I should split that up in 2 or maybe even 3 chapters. Meaning that a proper writer would probably split it up.
Edit: Good video. Guess I'm not 100% an underwriter then :-P And maybe you could do a video on how to know what scenes to put in a chapter and when to split them up into more chapters. Right now I'm going for the "1 plot-progressing point per chapter" And try to end a chapter on that.
Edit 2: I'm so used to pressing ctrl+s after I finished typing some stuff and taking a short break (when writing it's to think about what to write next) that I'm even pressing ctrl+s on youtube comments I type.
Thank you! This was really helpful! I love how scientifically you look at writing.
Could you maybe make a video about how to write child characters realistically? That's something I struggle with a lot and I have so many child characters in my current project…
Oh and what's your outro song? I really like it
Are there any more videos that talk about this chapter/scene/beat/sentence hierarchy? This is exactly how I write (I manually break my scrivener manuscript into beats), but I've never heard anyone else talk about it so I always considered it a fun idiosyncracy. It seems like a meaty subject.
Probably not, it's just a theory I made up to help me with my own editing process!
Question: Do you have any advice for authors writing about something they’re experts in without being confusing or uninteresting for the average reader?
For example, I’m a martial artist, so whenever I get to write a fight scene I write really detailed scenes filled with play-by-play and tactics. Reading them back though, they’re really slow, so people who aren’t martial artists generally find them uninteresting. I imagine this is a problem for most authors whenever they hit an area they are very knowledgeable about. Advice?
This is smart!
I love your videos.
I’ve always known I was an over writer but this made me realize how much worse it is at the scene level compared to all the others. Damnnn what an epiphany.
im such a description light writer because as i reader i am one if those people who dont need character descriptions and all that jazz. and then people read my short stories and are like “it was good but...i dont know what any of these people look like.” its a problem
Unrelated question: Why don't you self-publish your books or a book? People tend to think that if they get their books published they won't have to do any marketing or they'll make more money but that's completely the opposite. And I think especially for authors like you who have a loyal audience it would be a lot easier. Random question, you probably answered before but I was just curious.
+Scott Miller pretty much said it all, but another key reason is that I write in genres that don't do very well when self published.
I’m bad at everything when it comes to writing. My scenes are not long at all. My description is non existent. My first book and only book I wrote is only 90 pages
I'm an underwriter. I don't have a lot of description but I get to the point really fast.
This was awesome :)
Thank you shaelin you are so helpful and great. I wish we were friends in real life because then I could talk about books and writing with someone who understands XD
Love you :))
Greetings from Germany
i way overdo it with stage direction in my rough drafts. for some reason i have to shoehorn in some minor action after almost every dialogue line. i just cut 13k fron a manuscript & i swear it was 75% stage direction. i guess i'm paranoid about falling into the whole 'talking heads' thing.
This is something I needed right now as I finish my draft and go into editing... I don't know if I dug deep enough in your uploads to actually know this answer, but what happens if you feel like you have too many characters in a novel? How would I go about cutting them and make the remaining characters stronger? (I might have to consider this as my next goal once the draft is one hundred percent finished...)
If you have too many characters, I'd recommend trying to combine some of them, so one character can play the role of what used to be multiple characters.
GAH this is so helpful! I know I write too much but knowing where and how is infinitely more useful. I know for a fact that some of my scenes progress waaay too quickly too.
Also, how would you suggest shifting this to short story structure?
It's pretty much the same for a short story! Short story scenes might be a bit more compact than in a novel, though, but not always, and the same ideas still apply.
I think I'm an underwriter because I'm way too impatient, so I end up overlooking many things (I assume they're obvious, and they aren't). Also I'm really bad at the part of telling and toughts, which is weird, but it's because I'm afraid of telling?
Oh my gosh I was wearing overalls today 😄😄😄
that means you have good style *nods*
Twinzthies
It's hard for me to describe myself as either of those. My first "book" which I will never look back to, did not have a word count goal so...whatever. My second book is above my word count. And my third is below. So I'm having a hard time classifying myself. It will probably depend on my next book.
this is amazing what
I've had two people now randomly message me, claiming to be an editor. Trying to coerce me into sending them everything I've got right now, even though I've told them I'm not ready for an editor until my stories are finished. Is this a red flag? Or is it normal to send things to editors, even when you're not finished?
This is absolutely a red flag! An editor contacting you is super sketchy. If you want to work with an editor, you should contact them first, but an editor reaching out to you before your work is even done and trying to coerce you feels very scammy.
@@ShaelinWrites I thought so. Thanks.
Can I just say that I love your overalls! I'm a complete overwriter haha, which you know if you watch my UA-cam channel where I edit my first novel. Valor is over 150,000 words, which is a pretty big debut novel! I'm definitely going to have to cut words before querying, and this model is really helpful for my editing, so thank you!
I feel like it's ok, if you're an underwriter, to write words and words and get very overwriter in the "second" draft. And then cut it down. I don't know, sounds like a lot of work, but what is writing?
Haha I definitely do that! As long as it eventually works out, why not right?
I'm an overwriter plot-wise so I can keep things interesting lol. Not quite sure how to be content with just one plot tbh
I thought you were an overwriter! I'm a painfully huge underwriter.
Thanks.
Iam a bad underwriter. No matter how hard I try I always come up short.
This lady is beautiful
Thank you. (Maybe this comment is a little underwritten, but what the heck! 😋)
Underwriter. On everything.
Shaelin, vous êtes beaucoup plus mignon sans l'anneau du nez. Je regarde ces vidéos parce que tu es mignon, mais les bijoux de visage me tuent.
I thought this video was about the overwriting for lefties.
But... but... I hate beets.
i underwrite :(
I underwrote this comment.
nah seems just perfect
@@ShaelinWrites The first draft of that comment was about 180,000 words, but I cut it down to four by doing line edits. All thanks to this video!👍
May I suggest that you speak a little bit slower, it´s easier to listen to if you do :)
Adjust the video speed in the settings.
humans are not binary and we should stop pretending like we are. ur not an "over"writer or an "under"writer, you tend to either overwrite or underwrite your novel. But all this means to me is that "over"writing means ur explaining too many things that don't need to be explained versus "under"writing being not explaining things enough. I think applying it to word count is a huge mistake because word count doesn't say shit about the quality of writing and I think these terms are more about the quality of writing than the number of words written?