"Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break." stromata 4 25
Interesting episode Sam and Zach (didn't know of your channel before). It seems to me that what trinitarians are ordinarily seeking to defend is not truly the claim that early Christians were trinitarian, but rather that there were early (
@drowning-aint-so-bad I believe you are correct that most people think of the Trinity as God coming down to earth in human form. Most people do not know the difference between the triune and the unitarian God. I believe the Quran endorses the Triune God but rejects the incarnation/ God coming down to earth in human form.
"I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things- above whom there is no other God - wishes to announce to them." - Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 56. Yeah...Justin isn't a great example of a Trinitarian.
@rogersacco4626 ... Dale Tuggy and his Trinities Podcast will only show you ridiculous trinities. He gives you straw men to easily destroy. I too have learned much from his hard work and Christian dedication but don't stop at Tuggy. He will be trinitarian soon.
If "Jesus is God" questions I asked myself: Is death on the cross a priggish suicide? Is killing himself a blessing that only he can understand? - A triune Godhead feels uncomfortable as though it is disrespectful to the sacrifice and transcendence of Jesus the man 🤷
Would you be interested in discussing the idea of Jesus being the “human manifestation of God” that modalistic Monarchianism has, and how it may be similar or different to Unitarian views?
You miss out the fact that biblical unitarians believe that Jesus is also the son of God. He was born specifically to fulfil the purpose of bringing salvation to the world. But still a human, not divine. He had to be human, as scripture says, in order to save humanity.
Paul and Peter in the book of Acts seem to me to preach that Jesus was a man. At least they call him a man and don't seem to hint that they thought he was God. By the way, Jews and muslims and trinitarians believe David and Abraham are men does that mean it is wrong to believe they were men. Not everything Jews and muslims believe is wrong.
Just imagine you are Thomas. You have been with Jesus for the past three years. You think he is the messiah but he gets crucified. Your fellow disciples say they saw him risen from the dead. You don't believe them, but then he appears to you. Why would you think he was God the creator of the universe? All the other people who saw him risen did not say that to him or about him. Peter preached in Acts that he was a man approved of God by miracles which God did through him. Paul said the same thing in Acts 17.
1:24:13 it’s true that Irenaeus outs all three of them at the foundation of Christian faith (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). But in doing so, Irenaeus is explicit that the One God is the Father. He is explicit on this point in several places.
You are objectively wrong: “[47] Therefore, the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord, and the Father is God and the Son is God, since He who is born of God is God, and in this way, according to His being (ὑπόστασις) and power and essence (οὐσία), one God is demonstrated: but according to the economy (οἰκονομία) of our salvation, there is both Father and Son; since the Father of all is invisible and inaccessible to creatures, it is necessary for those who are going to approach God to have access (προσαγωγή) to the Father through the Son.” Irenaeus On Apostolic Preaching
@ I’m happy to acknowledge he wrote that, and that that sounds very Trinitarian, when read in isolation. But Irenaeus also wrote this in “on the apostolic teaching”: 5. Thus then there is shown forth One God, the Father, not made, invisible, creator of all things; above whom there is no other God, and after whom there is no other God. And, since God is rational, therefore by Word He created the things that were made; and God is Spirit, and by Spirit He adorned all things: as also the prophet says: By the word of the Lord were the heavens established, and by his spirit all their power. Since then the Word establishes, that is to say, gives body and grants the reality of being, and the Spirit gives order and form to the diversity of the powers; rightly and fittingly is the Word called the Son, and the Spirit the Wisdom of God. Well also does Paul His apostle say: One God, the Father, who is over all and through all and in its all. For over all is the Father; and through all is the Son, for through Him all things were made by the Father; and in us all is the Spirit, who cries Abba Father, and fashions man into the likeness of God. Now the Spirit shows forth the Word, and therefore the prophets announced the Son of God; and the Word utters the Spirit, and therefore is Himself the announcer of the prophets, and leads and draws man to the Father. And this in “against heresies” The apostles, therefore, did preach the Son of God, of whom men were ignorant; and His advent, to those who had been already instructed as to God; but they did not bring in another god. For if Peter had known any such thing, he would have preached freely to the Gentiles, that the God of the Jews was indeed one, but the God of the Christians another; and all of them, doubtless, being awe-struck because of the vision of the angel, would have believed whatever he told them. But it is evident from Peter's words that he did indeed still retain the God who was already known to them; but he also bore witness to them that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, into whom he did also command them to be baptized for the remission of sins; and not this alone, but he witnessed that Jesus was Himself the Son of God, who also, having been anointed with the Holy Spirit, is called Jesus Christ. But the Church throughout all the world, having its origin firm from the apostles, perseveres in one and the same opinion with regard to God and His Son. And that the whole range of the doctrine of the apostles proclaimed one and the same God, who removed Abraham, who made to him the promise of inheritance, who in due season gave to him the covenant of circumcision, who called his descendants out of Egypt, preserved outwardly by circumcision- for he gave it as a sign, that they might not be like the Egyptians - that He was the Maker of all things, that He was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the God of glory - they who wish may learn from the very words and acts of the apostles, and may contemplate the fact that this God is one, above whom is no other. To the Jews, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks they preached one God, who made all things, and Jesus Christ His Son.
@@BillyBob-sm3ku because it literally says the one God, besides whom and above whom there is no other God, is the Father. Irenaeus’s view of the relationship between the Father and the Son is obviously nuanced, and I don’t have it totally figured out. But I am not “objectively wrong” that Irenaeus asserts that the One God is the Father in particular. It’s what he literally says.
@@BillyBob-sm3ku quote: "And that the whole range of the doctrine of the apostles proclaimed one and the same God... that He was the Maker of all things, that He was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the God of glory." "To the Jews, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks they preached one God, who made all things, and Jesus Christ His Son." In these quotes, does Irenaeus assert that all three persons of the trinity are together and inseparably the One God preached by the apostles? If not, which of the persons does he point out as the One God preached by the apostles?
Which Clement was he talking about? Clement of Rome (first century) or Clement of Alexandria (contemporary of Origen)? I suspect that he mixed them up, and that this wasn’t a malicious lie on his part.
Peter says in 2 Peter 1v16 For we do not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made know to you the coming and power of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. Just before all three records in the gospels when Jesus is on the mount, he had just said there are some standing here who shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom. So, what happened on the mount doesn't seem to be a revelation of his deity, but a revelation of his future glory in the kingdom.
Yeshua was from the line of the Kings threw David (Joseph/Matthew) from the line of the Prophets threw Nathan (Heli/Luke) from The line of The Priests threw Tzadok (Maryam/John) 🥰 be blessed Sam ! Cherebiyah
The earliest Jesus followers did identify him with the divine in words, practice, and the application of OT scriptures. In the earliest NT writings, the Father was the source of all things and denoted by the word God (Hebrew:Elohim, Greek:Theos). Jesus the Word or Son was identified with YHWH, the LORD (Hebrew: Adonai, Greek: Kyrios), through whom all created things came into existence, working in conjunction with the creative power of the divine Spirit. This was why the baptismal commitment was "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19-20). The early believers were OK with mystery and revelation, did not seek to overly define things. It was as the years wore on and real falsehood regarding Jesus raised its head that the church saw the need to more clearly define the parameters of God for acceptable church doctrine.
Jesus cannot be created, because the Bible clearly states that all things which have been created were created through Jesus. Unless you believe God the father created Jesus through Jesus. John 1:3 - "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
The "him" is a reference to the word. The translators put "him" instead of "it" because they believe the word is Jesus. However in Genesis 1 God speaks things into existence. All things were created by God speaking or by God's word. Hebrews 11v3 says by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 2v7 Jesus is set over the works of God the fathers hands. (From Hebrews 1v1 we know that God is the father).
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/n.gif)
I love both of your guys' channels.
Iron sharpens iron .
Thanks for listening!
Thanks for talking with me! I think it will really open people’s minds on the topic.
Thank you Zach! I really enjoyed it
"Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break." stromata 4 25
Interesting episode Sam and Zach (didn't know of your channel before). It seems to me that what trinitarians are ordinarily seeking to defend is not truly the claim that early Christians were trinitarian, but rather that there were early (
@drowning-aint-so-bad
I believe you are correct that most people think of the Trinity as God coming down to earth in human form. Most people do not know the difference between the triune and the unitarian God. I believe the Quran endorses the Triune God but rejects the incarnation/ God coming down to earth in human form.
I been looking forward to this since dr nemes was on!
Thanks for watching!
"I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things- above whom there is no other God - wishes to announce to them." - Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 56.
Yeah...Justin isn't a great example of a Trinitarian.
Too many gods
I believed in the trinity.I listened to some of trinities org.I don't believe in it anymore.
Dale Tuggy will have that effect.
@rogersacco4626 ... Dale Tuggy and his Trinities Podcast will only show you ridiculous trinities. He gives you straw men to easily destroy. I too have learned much from his hard work and Christian dedication but don't stop at Tuggy. He will be trinitarian soon.
If "Jesus is God" questions I asked myself: Is death on the cross a priggish suicide? Is killing himself a blessing that only he can understand? - A triune Godhead feels uncomfortable as though it is disrespectful to the sacrifice and transcendence of Jesus the man 🤷
I hear what you're saying
Would you be interested in discussing the idea of Jesus being the “human manifestation of God” that modalistic Monarchianism has, and how it may be similar or different to Unitarian views?
Did Christ say The Father and I are One? Why would He leave out the Holy Spirit? Christ said My Father is Greater than I.
Very true
Jews claim Jesus was just a human. Muslims claim Jesus was just a human. Unitarians claim Jesus was just a human.
You miss out the fact that biblical unitarians believe that Jesus is also the son of God.
He was born specifically to fulfil the purpose of bringing salvation to the world.
But still a human, not divine.
He had to be human, as scripture says, in order to save humanity.
Paul and Peter in the book of Acts seem to me to preach that Jesus was a man. At least they call him a man and don't seem to hint that they thought he was God. By the way, Jews and muslims and trinitarians believe David and Abraham are men does that mean it is wrong to believe they were men. Not everything Jews and muslims believe is wrong.
Thomas…on touching the wounds of Christ.
“..my Lord and my God..”. ?
Just imagine you are Thomas. You have been with Jesus for the past three years. You think he is the messiah but he gets crucified. Your fellow disciples say they saw him risen from the dead. You don't believe them, but then he appears to you. Why would you think he was God the creator of the universe? All the other people who saw him risen did not say that to him or about him. Peter preached in Acts that he was a man approved of God by miracles which God did through him. Paul said the same thing in Acts 17.
1:24:13 it’s true that Irenaeus outs all three of them at the foundation of Christian faith (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). But in doing so, Irenaeus is explicit that the One God is the Father. He is explicit on this point in several places.
You are objectively wrong: “[47] Therefore, the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord, and the Father is God and the Son is God, since He who is born of God is God, and in this way, according to His being (ὑπόστασις) and power and essence (οὐσία), one God is demonstrated: but according to the economy (οἰκονομία) of our salvation, there is both Father and Son; since the Father of all is invisible and inaccessible to creatures, it is necessary for those who are going to approach God to have access (προσαγωγή) to the Father through the Son.”
Irenaeus On Apostolic Preaching
@ I’m happy to acknowledge he wrote that, and that that sounds very Trinitarian, when read in isolation. But Irenaeus also wrote this in “on the apostolic teaching”:
5. Thus then there is shown forth One God, the Father, not made, invisible, creator of all things; above whom there is no other God, and after whom there is no other God. And, since God is rational, therefore by Word He created the things that were made; and God is Spirit, and by Spirit He adorned all things: as also the prophet says: By the word of the Lord were the heavens established, and by his spirit all their power. Since then the Word establishes, that is to say, gives body and grants the reality of being, and the Spirit gives order and form to the diversity of the powers; rightly and fittingly is the Word called the Son, and the Spirit the Wisdom of God. Well also does Paul His apostle say: One God, the Father, who is over all and through all and in its all. For over all is the Father; and through all is the Son, for through Him all things were made by the Father; and in us all is the Spirit, who cries Abba Father, and fashions man into the likeness of God. Now the Spirit shows forth the Word, and therefore the prophets announced the Son of God; and the Word utters the Spirit, and therefore is Himself the announcer of the prophets, and leads and draws man to the Father.
And this in “against heresies”
The apostles, therefore, did preach the Son of God, of whom men were ignorant; and His advent, to those who had been already instructed as to God; but they did not bring in another god. For if Peter had known any such thing, he would have preached freely to the Gentiles, that the God of the Jews was indeed one, but the God of the Christians another; and all of them, doubtless, being awe-struck because of the vision of the angel, would have believed whatever he told them. But it is evident from Peter's words that he did indeed still retain the God who was already known to them; but he also bore witness to them that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, into whom he did also command them to be baptized for the remission of sins; and not this alone, but he witnessed that Jesus was Himself the Son of God, who also, having been anointed with the Holy Spirit, is called Jesus Christ. But the Church throughout all the world, having its origin firm from the apostles, perseveres in one and the same opinion with regard to God and His Son.
And that the whole range of the doctrine of the apostles proclaimed one and the same God, who removed Abraham, who made to him the promise of inheritance, who in due season gave to him the covenant of circumcision, who called his descendants out of Egypt, preserved outwardly by circumcision- for he gave it as a sign, that they might not be like the Egyptians - that He was the Maker of all things, that He was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the God of glory - they who wish may learn from the very words and acts of the apostles, and may contemplate the fact that this God is one, above whom is no other.
To the Jews, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks they preached one God, who made all things, and Jesus Christ His Son.
@@HarrisBeauchamp how do those quotes support what you are saying?
@@BillyBob-sm3ku because it literally says the one God, besides whom and above whom there is no other God, is the Father.
Irenaeus’s view of the relationship between the Father and the Son is obviously nuanced, and I don’t have it totally figured out. But I am not “objectively wrong” that Irenaeus asserts that the One God is the Father in particular. It’s what he literally says.
@@BillyBob-sm3ku quote:
"And that the whole range of the doctrine of the apostles proclaimed one and the same God... that He was the Maker of all things, that He was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the God of glory."
"To the Jews, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks they preached one God, who made all things, and Jesus Christ His Son."
In these quotes, does Irenaeus assert that all three persons of the trinity are together and inseparably the One God preached by the apostles? If not, which of the persons does he point out as the One God preached by the apostles?
Clement and Origen lived in the same time period. You should apologize for lying.
Which Clement was he talking about? Clement of Rome (first century) or Clement of Alexandria (contemporary of Origen)? I suspect that he mixed them up, and that this wasn’t a malicious lie on his part.
And, of course, just a handful of people will listen this sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 4:3-5)
Shema Yisrael.
Amen
The transfiguration..?
Peter says in 2 Peter 1v16 For we do not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made know to you the coming and power of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Just before all three records in the gospels when Jesus is on the mount, he had just said there are some standing here who shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom. So, what happened on the mount doesn't seem to be a revelation of his deity, but a revelation of his future glory in the kingdom.
Spend time reading Romans or in prayer, or listen to a good sermon. That would be much beneficial.
Much more beneficial than watching UA-cam and leaving comments for sure
Believers have different gifts.
Yeshua was from the line of the Kings threw David (Joseph/Matthew)
from the line of the Prophets threw Nathan (Heli/Luke)
from The line of The Priests threw Tzadok (Maryam/John)
🥰
be blessed Sam !
Cherebiyah
Blessings to you too
The earliest Jesus followers did identify him with the divine in words, practice, and the application of OT scriptures. In the earliest NT writings, the Father was the source of all things and denoted by the word God (Hebrew:Elohim, Greek:Theos). Jesus the Word or Son was identified with YHWH, the LORD (Hebrew: Adonai, Greek: Kyrios), through whom all created things came into existence, working in conjunction with the creative power of the divine Spirit. This was why the baptismal commitment was "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19-20).
The early believers were OK with mystery and revelation, did not seek to overly define things. It was as the years wore on and real falsehood regarding Jesus raised its head that the church saw the need to more clearly define the parameters of God for acceptable church doctrine.
Jesus cannot be created, because the Bible clearly states that all things which have been created were created through Jesus. Unless you believe God the father created Jesus through Jesus. John 1:3 - "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
The "him" is a reference to the word. The translators put "him" instead of "it" because they believe the word is Jesus. However in Genesis 1 God speaks things into existence. All things were created by God speaking or by God's word. Hebrews 11v3 says by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hebrews 2v7 Jesus is set over the works of God the fathers hands. (From Hebrews 1v1 we know that God is the father).