What if Melee had EVEN LESS dev time?
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- The most cursed timeline. Lucas instead of Ness. No Fire Emblem characters. Game & Watch cut. No clones. Only 16 characters (17 including Sheik) and only 17 stages.
Today we explore what Melee could have been like in alternative universe where HAL Laboratory and Sakurai only had 8 months of development instead of the 13 months they had (which was already cutting it close).
This video is just speculative, but uses some information we do have about which characters were prioritized, early versions of stages seen at Spaceworld and E3 2001, and some unused assets like the early title screen.
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00:00 - Intro
00:19 - Early Title Screen
00:27 - Smaller Character Selection Screen
01:10 - Smaller Stage Selection Screen
01:35 - Stage Changes
02:27 - Outro
Credit to Barry Barrows for the beta title screen.
Treasure Hunt Yoshi's Story stage included in Beyond Melee: beyondmelee.com/home/
Melee Lucas CSS icon created by neeko.
"Melee Lucas" mod for Brawl included in Smash 2: / smash2official
Edited versions of Brinstar, Fountain of Dreams, and Great Bay were modified by me and aren't available for download.
"Beta Onett" music theme created by rustymonkee: • Onett/Bein' Friends | ...
Outro Music Credit: "Resting Place" by Garrett Williamson • Resting Place
#Melee #WhatIf #CursedTimeline - Ігри
If this video was a little too painful to handle, you might enjoy a scenario in which Melee had 6 MORE months of development time: ua-cam.com/video/tQxwqicJKC4/v-deo.html
Talking to yourself on UA-cam is cool.
Ok
The Fire Emblem Characters missing out on Melee would probably cause Ripple Effects, no localization of FE7, No Nostalgia for Marth and Roy and things would likely be very different for the series as a whole.
That's an excellent point! Shows how impactful specifically Melee was for Nintendo and gaming as a whole.
good ending: fire emblem never got popular
And no Corrin/Byleth! Wooooo!!!
@@LostSoulSilver No Corrin/Byleth is the best outcome we could have imagined.
@@davidvkimball that’s literally what he said?
“Woooooo!” ≠ “Boooooo!”
incredibly cursed lmao. I remember as a kid one of the big reasons people (anectodally friends and family) actually switched over to melee was cause it had all the characters from 64 and they played similarly. If ness and puff had been missing things could have been very different culturally
So true! Very happy Sakurai ended up making the decisions he did in keeping the entirety of the 64 cast.
Tfw you realize Melee did “Everyone is Here” before Ultimate did!😎
@@brandonwilliams6119 Hahaha true!
Players: Who's Lucas?
Nintendo: oh you'll see....real soon
(Mother 3 GC canceled)
Nintendo: .....In about 5 years!
Great comment. I removed the other guy's comment because it was unneeded.
If they replaced Ness with Lucas, do you think they would have added a stage referencing Mother 3 instead of Onett?
Definitely possible! I believe Onett was an earlier stage worked on in Melee, so if they had at truncated timeline it's hard to say if they'd scap something in-progress like that or just roll with it.
Hey, heres the knowledge of a Project M Remix dev member about to blow your mind.
They always talk about how Lucas was switched to Ness, but have you considered Onett being in that development time? Onett has textures found in earthbound 64 art and also trailers. Things like the weathervane and the title sign for Onett are identical to EB64 stuff. If you also remember, a lot of models in game use a texture from EB64 of Osohe Castle, if I also remember correctly, dont quote me on this, buildings were also very similar to eb64 ones. Granted Onett always felt off for a Mother 2 stage so I think once they decided to switch to Ness they just slapped on that label. Idk about Fourside but I wouldnt doubt a similar story.
@@RockyTheThird Excellent, all really good points!!
The smaller character and stage select screens are absolutely cursed but also... cute in a way? One of the things I like about Smash games is seeing the blank space you had at the start get filled up as you unlocked characters. In Melee especially the character select screen can get weird when incomplete. As a kid there was a full year where I didn't have a memory card so re-unlocking Jigglypuff, Dr Mario and sometimes Young Link were daily occurrences so my roster screen shifted a lot. I'm glad we have the Melee we got. It's not ultra polished but it's far from unplayable as the kids and teens of these days would tell you it is otherwise.
Hahaha. Beautifully put. I'm so sorry you didn't have a memory card for that long.
I wish the newer games had an option to play without input buffer (64/melee style)
@@SSJPENGUIN Could not agree more
With this video and extra half year video, melee with a whole extra year would've been insane. Sonic could've joined, Luigi could be based on the first Luigis Mansion, Mario could have FLUDD like later games (but as a recovery, similar to one of Mii Gunner's custom up specials in smash 4 and ultimate), and Banjo-Kazooie might even be managable! Imagine what Sakurai would pull off!
That's a really good point... you might want to stick around because there's a certain new video I'm working on you might enjoy.
I kinda wish they made Flood a recovery that shit would've made more sales because of that alone XD
I actually think that FD/BF would be in the game at the very least. They were used in 64 for boss stuff, so presumably they'd return in that capacity?
That's a good point. Final Destination would become the Master Hand/Crazy Hand stage, and Battlefield would still be for Fighting Wireframes at least.
Yea they might have just not included them as playable stages in that case (but then again, what would be the point if it's already a completed stage?)
A Smash game without Final Destination would just be sacrilege anyway.
If this was the Melee we got, it would've been ripe for one of Matt McMuscles' "Wha Happun" videos.
That said, I do like the beta Great Bay and Yoshi's Story a little more.
True!!
I'll be honest, this made me laugh so hard to the point of me accidentally waking up my brother... XD
That blessed timeline tease at the end got me hyped up, your '6 more months' was so well done, I can't wait to see more like it 👍
Thank you so much!!
*year 2000 in that timeline:*
Melee Team: well, we already released the game, it's too incomplete but...
Earthbound 64 Team: GAME CANCELED, REMOVE LUCAS
Melee Team: Bruh Moment
"WE ONLY HAD 8 MONTHS, WE NEED TO PUSH OUT LUCAS. We'll include a Mother 2 stage though."
@@davidvkimball I can see Sakurai saying this, mostly out of stress due to the limited time he got and a big middle finger against Nintendo out of spite. heck if it is an cursed timeline then everyone in the Nintendo R&D along with second party and third party devs would go against Nintendo for their unrealistic deadlines and mistreatment of staff would cause the infant Nintendo Gamecube to die an early death due to a lack of first-party games.
Like SEGA and their Dreamcast, economic turmoil and poor management in the company would bring the downfall of the last home console company. 😔
But that's just my timeline theory, thanks for reading my ramblings.
@@livinglie5598 absolutely wild. But still fun to think about!
If people outside Japan thought getting Fire Emblem characters was bad imagine getting a character from a game that never even came out anywhere at all
HA! True!
Less characters to unlock would dampen the fun but this would still have been an impressive step up from 64 at the time
That's a good point!
Another great video! I'm loving these conceptual rosters! I feel like doing ones for the scrapped "Melee but with online" incarnation of Brawl that Nintendo was planning on making if they couldn't get Sakurai back or a what if there was a direct sequel to Melee on the GameCube could be fun to make!
Oooooo, this is an amazing idea!!
This is basically Beta Melee. Nice Melee pillow you have here !
Thank you! My girlfriend Essie made it for me, I adore her.
@@davidvkimball Well then you're Lucky.
@@davidvkimball I want to hug Melee too. I would love one myself.
@@KellyAesop Hugging Melee is a genuine pleasure.
I agree how Mewtwo is there in place of Jigglypuff (I would have done that for Smash 64's development), but to consider MOTHER 3's development lifecycle, I would've kept Ness also to note the fact the Onett stage was there.
The newcomers as follow are: Peach, Bowser, Zelda (no Sheik), King Dedede, Marth, and Ryota Hayami as a Captain Falcon clone (serving as an ad for Wave Race: Blue Storm).
Fascinating lineup! I don't agree about Dedede, since Sakurai went out of his way to not include his own creations during Melee's dev because he didn't want his personal bias getting in the way. Interesting to have Zelda with no Sheik though. I hadn't thought of that. I also like your Ryota Hayami idea!
@@davidvkimball Yeah. As for me, I don't like this cursed timeline. I like the other one with all the characters that we got. In the different timeline however, things would've been different if Bowser and Dedede made the cut early in Smash 64. Wario (and possibly Wolf as a Semi-clone of Fox) would be added in Melee alongside Peach. Regardless, Wario can be playable with or without Wolf depending on how much development time they had. :) But we do need to think about Sakurai's health. I think the game will released at either 2001-2002 or 2002-2003.
@@richiecampbell605 Yeah Wario would have been included for sure.
@@richiecampbell605 I gotta admit how much of a challenge this was. Although Dedede may be the only "unique" newcomer of these, my idea for Ryota from Wave Race was also since clone characters take less development time, and a water elemental type of Captain Falcon clone would sound interesting (considering both Ryota and Falcon originated from racers and were never seen fighting outside of a vehicle).
@@DreamyMystX64 That's a good point! Ganondorf will have his role as a boss in Adventure Mode as well as a playable boss in Event Matches. :)
Seems interesting actually. I've always wondered how Temple's elevator would've looked if kept in.
Yeah, wish there was more clear footage of it available!
Wonder what Adventure Mode would look like in this timeline. Was that a late addition? Would it have less production value? Would it be scrapped entirely despite early work being done as Sakurai wouldn't want to deliver something half-baked?
Makes ya think...
If I had to guess, there'd be no Adventure Mode, just "1P Mode" and "All-Star" as a bonus once you unlocked all characters.
Don't forget the biggest omission: one of the major things Sakurai always credited was Iwata helping with programming in the final months to remove any game damaging bugs and polish it up enough for release.
In a rushed scenario this probably would not have happened, and the in depth playstyle of Melee as we know from the past 20 years may not exist, instead probably being a much more clunky experience.
Fantastic point!
Lucas in Melee would have been like the Giraffic thing from Zootopia (a reference to an upcoming soon cancelled movie). A character from from a game never meant to be… at the time, at least.
Though, perhaps when Mother 3 would eventually come to the GBA, maybe in this timeline Lucas’s earlier exposure to the world through Smash would have caused a “Fire Emblem effect” and cause Mother 3 to come to the west? I mean, the Mother/Earthbound series is already helped enough by Smash.
Definitely possible in this theoretical timeline.
I like how you used that beta Melee music lol
Thanks! I'm glad you noticed that small detail haha.
Wow I've never seen that rendition of Yoshi's Story before, I really want to play on these old stage concepts
The "Lucas" part wouldn't make sense, as Lucas' cut back to Ness was decided on Earthbound 64's delays, not the game's cancellation. Earthbound 64's last major delay would've happened most likely happened around May 2000, the game's original release date (they went on record stating that they were later aiming for Christmas 2000 afterwards), with Melee entering full development months after that. So It's most likely possible that they never even began actual work on Lucas, and only existed in the concept stage. This also would apply to "Onett", which would've possibly been an actual Earthbound 64 stage (that or the layout changed to resemble post-timeskip Tazmily from Earthbound 64)
Also the MOTHER 2 designs don't work for the Earthbound 64 Aesthetic, something more like Toon Link would match up way better, along with modifying the moveset as PSI didn't exist in MOTHER 3 (An alternate system called "Magic" did, which was much more elemental based & was different from PSi according to supplemental material & footage).
Unrelated, but this & your "Elevated" video are super good, keep it up!
Thank you for this feedback and the support!
The game would release on June 21, 2001.
Hahaha, well that's before the GameCube launched, so maybe it would have a similar release date but dev would just start later?
This is a hilarious concept, very nice video too
Thank you!
That roster made me gag... not having Marth, Roy and Mr. Game & Watch feels so *wrong,* boy am I glad we didn't in up in this timeline!
Hahaha
i want this cursed version to be a actual mod for the game
Ha! It can be made
When I was a kid you have no idea how much I broke my head over the platforms on Temple and weird scenes in the special clip movie in the game…. Like I was small so I was so lost how weird the game was lol
I love that! That era had the perfect amount of mystery and it was before all of Nintendo's games were overly polished if that makes sense? Had some rawness and odd quirks still.
@@davidvkimball ugh i loved it I completely understand you, i loved the mystery in it and in the beta version yoshi story and other stages had me amazed…. or like let’s say The Legend of Zelda Majoras mask if you see beta clips it just so different but it’s oddly satisfying, as a kid (or even now) I just get amazed by this information haha!
@@mikrokosmos8631 Right?! I'm not sure what it is exactly, but I've always been drawn to beta elements or cut content from games!
How to scare competitive community
It would scare any Melee fan! lol
What's next a cursed version of Brawl in this timeline.
Seeing bits of the early phases of Melee is crazy
Yeah, it's actually really fun haha
Didn't we already have a blessed timeline video with Melee having more development time? XD
Imagine an EVEN MORE blessed timeline. 😳
@@davidvkimball If we're talking enough content to fill 2 discs, then I'm in.
@@denraimei32 😊
2:37
woah are you teasing somthin
👀
👀
Any thoughts on the potential for additional non-playable content, such as Giga Bowser and Crazy Hand, to have not made it in, Dr. Kimball? With such time constraints, I have a feeling Adventure Mode and Event Matches would be scrapped, potentially knocking Giga Bowser out of the game, but I could see Crazy Hand making it in, since the standard 1P mode from Smash 64 was always going to return.
Yep, I think you're exactly right. I can see Adventure Mode and Event Matches getting scrapped, and Break the Targets barely making it in, and All-Star thrown in as a bonus (since it would be fairly easy to develop compared to other modes).
Make a "What if brawl had more dev time", sound interesting.
Could be for sure!
@@davidvkimball IIRC 60% of its resources and budget went to Subspace, as they originally wanted a different studio to develop it. Would’ve been one of the more blessed timelines.
@@ianhawke2203 holy cow. A separate studio for just adventure mode. That's crazy!
@@davidvkimball It’s true, I think there might be an article on Source Gaming or somewhere else.
That was Yoshi Island? Man, we got robbed.
Not necessarily haha, it's an imaginative different version of the stage present in the Beyond Melee mod.
@@davidvkimball oh ok, my bad
@@miguelangeljaja4293 No problem! But early Yoshi's Story did look pretty insane. It's in my Melee doc where I cover it.
Do you have a link to that prerelease video you used? WIth the mario world stage beta and such
Yeah, check my video "Elevated" has everything
@@davidvkimball Will defo check that out later tonight but do ya have a link to just that footage
@@cleb6720 in the description of that video it's there somewhere yeah
puff removed? this is awesome
Yes
I misread the title and thought it said endless dev time, which I think might be a fun idea.
Just you wait ....
What's development if nothing is progressing.
Seeing a hypothetical Melee having less development time feels oddly familiar. It's like we've had this all along instead of the one we have. But in the end, I'm glad we have the content we have in Melee. ^^
Me too!
Actually, I think Fourside was already revealed during Melee's reveal but untextured, so I think it'd probably remain
It was! But I assume if they had a forecast of an earlier release window, they wouldn't have started work on it and would have pivoted to something else. Fourside wasn't in its complete state by the time it was revealed at E3.
@@davidvkimball That's true! Just something I thought was worth observing, thanks for replying!
@@kirbyofthestarsfan of course. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the comment. 😊
A game without Hungrybox is like not having any garlic in any Italian dish.
Dang. That rings so true.
Multiple sources directly from Sakurai and IS say Marth was one of the very first newcomers decided for Melee. So he should be here 100%. On the flip side, some of those same sources say Roy was one of the last added.
It's creepy to think about it. I loved every single thing form Melee when I was a kid
Me too!
No marth no puff and no stadium transformations ? That sounds great
Hahaha
Imagine getting this in Christmas of 2001.
😅
Dude, I love Melee! Where did you get that pillow?! 😆😆
My girlfriend made it for me!
Cursed indeed, but in a good way. What would Brawl look like?
In this timeline? Good question....
With this type of videos I still wondering...¿How this could affect the next installments as a whole in the Super Smash Bros. franchise, if one of this timelines actually happens?
It's an excellent question!
No marth? why is this the cursed timeline
Hahaha. I was waiting for someone to say "no Fire Emblem? More liked blessed"
Cause we probably wouldn't have had Ike in the Next game
Oh dear god.
Cursed, huh?
@@davidvkimball yup. Definitely.
where can i buy that pillow in the intro
My girlfriend made it for me. 😊
Seriously, I Love The Earthbound 64 Lucas Design! I Wish That Design Was At Least An Alternate Costume For Him In Brawl Or Ultimate.......
Right?!
@@davidvkimball yeah, lol. But seriously, Smash 2 Did A Good Work on That Model.
@@ralseidreemurr3258 For sure!
As a Lucas main in both Brawl and PM, I wish we had gotten him instead of Ness lol
Hahaha
Replacing Jigglypuff with Mewtwo? All right, Sure I'll try this version.
Ha!
1:48 Pokemon Stadium being static would've actually probably been a good thing later on since some of competitive Melee's rulesets are starting to prefer frozen Stadium now.
Agreed lol
no gonna lie the version i think its the beta of onnets theme is a banger
I like the beta too! But the full version is perfect 😊
Me imagino lo siguiente:
Un modo 1P Mas Parecido al de 64
Muchos Menos Eventos
Menos Items
Menos Trofeos
Menos todo Basicamente
What if Brawl had more dev time? 🤔
It would still need Project M to be playable. 😂
Yeah, that'll kill Melee into oblivion
Lol
You'd get something like Punch Time Explosion!
lol
I do not want to live in this cursed timeline.
Luckily you don't have to!
My life wouldn't be the same.
Same.
Lucas is looking fresh
Yes, Smash 2 / AGR did a marvelous job realizing Lucas for a theoretical Melee appearance.
@@davidvkimball In my opinion, I prefer this design of Lucas more than the finalized one we mostly see. (such as in Mother 3, Brawl, etc. that uses the finalized design)
@@aesthetic-moon-wave Yes I agree. I kinda love his Earthbound 64 design.
I generally prefer Earthbound 64s main character designs (For Flint, Duster, Lucas and even Boney)
i feel like this would be melee if it had like 6 months of dev time
I'd say that's generous for only 6 months!
i don’t think lucas would have replaced ness, since that original version of mother 3 was already cancelled by 2000; and with even less development time, i think they would have opted to keep ness anyway because he would already be mostly finished.
Fair enough!
A timeline that Melee wasn't finished wouldn't be good and the Smash Documentary wouldn't exist and the competition scene would be minimal.
Yep!
Those were the most efficient 3 months
Yeah lol
I made a picture of what if smash bros melee had the same amount of characters as ultimate the only rule is I have to pick characters around the time of melee or before melee so like no characters like say shulk or inkling cause they exist after melee
Very nice!
Would like to see ladies tees/tanks. Nice designs there :)
Thank you! I'm totally open to adding ladies Ts to the merch store. Which design would you want the most?
@@davidvkimball I liked the Main Menu and LRA+Start ones ^^
what a dream a game with no falco in it
LOL
the hitstun would also be smash 64 levels of hitstun
so combine that with melee's fast af movement engine lmao
You're right!
Imagine if they really Speedran developing Melee
They kinda already did!
@@davidvkimball This time they were going for the world record
@@bananaslamma1668 lmao
Imagine if we were in a timeline like this. Who knows how well and/or bad Super Smash Bros. Melee would've performed...
Cool how the beta music was used here though.
Thanks! Yeah, I really like rustymonkee's rendition of it.
@@davidvkimballYou're welcome, and same.
It though it was Ness in Super Smash Bros Melee, not Lucas.
In this universe it was different.
You should do a what SSBB had two timelines
Brawl came out during Wii launch and more Dev time
Bless timeline
- New characters ( Mii , Pac-Man , Villager , Geno , Krystal ) No 4th party characters like Sora yet... Snake and Sonic and Pacman are the only 3rd party
- characters that there outfits break
- Better Online
- more or Melee like event matches
I have made something like that! Check out the videos on my channel.
Spooky
👻
I wish this version of what if melee can be a real super smash bros melee mod
Can you do the reverse version if melee has more dev time
I have, twice!
I want to made a melee VHS ARG....
What do you mean?
@@davidvkimball a analog horror of melee
@@davidvkimball like the mandela catalogue or needlemouse
I think the blessed timeline would've been 3 more years in development.
Guess you'll have to see!
That’s actually depressing to see.
😂 I'm sorry!
This game would be a nightmare competitively, fox would run everything and peach sheik and falcon stop all the other characters from playing lol
Lol I didn't think of that. 😅
Finally, it'll truly be Melee as seen in 2013!
@@anevilghost670 pretty much except no falco or marth to really keep fox in check
Thank god this didn't happen, because if I were Masahiro Sakurai I would have automatically canceled the game, because I just don't want to work in these conditions!
Definitely possible!
OH GOD WE ONLY HAVE 3 TOP TIERS
Wouldn't we still have Final Destination and Battle field because they appear in the classic mode? unless there is no classic mode at all 😳
I think there would be classic mode still but those stages wouldn't have enough time to be playtested as VS. mode stages (like Smash 64)
As a Ganon main and Puff secondary this character roster looks cursed
Literally the meta would be Fox and that’s it
If we had this timeline Fox might get banned like Meta Knight, since Falco, Jigglypuff and especially Marth aren’t here
That's an incredibly good point. There's be Sheik still though! And Peach and Falcon.
So weird seeing Lucas without his boyfriend Ness smh
🤔
@@davidvkimball you heard me
I don't Lucas would have made the final cut since mother 3 was cancelled on the N64 and the GBA version wouldn't release for many years.
If Melee was released early enough, it could have been a Roy-like situation.
What is the competitive scene without Puff!
Melee would be super wild without Jiggs.
@@davidvkimball without falco💔😗
is the blessed timeline NOT melee having 6 more months of development?? does it get better?
JUST YOU WAIT!
But where's Dr. Mario, Falco, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Pichu, Roy and Young Link?
I addressed that. lol
I'm glad they didn't choose to go that path otherwise Melee would have not been as enjoyable
Agreed!
Only 6 new characters compared to the 12 in Smash 64. that sounds awful
Hahaha. Don't forget they originally planned on only having 16 characters in melee. They weren't given much time, especially to make something for a new console so early on.
In this time line we'd get mother 3 but not fire emblem
Have you fiddled with Codename Melee?
Yeah! I was a playtester for it!
@@davidvkimball :D I can't wait for it to be a Melee mod! Your work has been phenomenal! I've been looking through your what ifs and stuff, seeing and feeling the emotion and stories as if they were first hand experiences. Your type of work is something that I have been planning to do for as long as I can remember for other franchises and it sorta feels like I have seen the future or something. I just wanted to say that. I had to.
@@ashketchum6585 wow, thank you! That is very kind of you to say!
i cannot take this video seriously. yes, lucas was an "early consideration", but there's no evidence that any work was ever actually done on him, let alone that there was ever a build in which he was present. "early consideration" could mean before the game had even really begun development.
Definitely! And that's OK, you don't need to take this video seriously, it's just fun speculation.
Blimey! Then this game would've bombed for sure and we wouldn't gotten classics like Brawl or Ultimate!
Would it have bombed? It's actually hard to say!
@@davidvkimball Well consider them lucky not to scrapped almost everything In sight or at least saved for later on even with a smaller budget.
No Jigglypuff no HungryBox 🤭
Possibly 🥺
I like this timeline, it doesn’t have marth in it
Lol