It's worth mentioning that Phantasmal Force calls for a save vs. spells to avoid the outcome of an illusionary effect, whereas the original effect, like say a medusa's petrification or a dragon's breath, entails saving throws that are usually easier than that. Disabling foes for 1d4 turns is as good as killing them, so this is pretty significant, since it can increase the chance of success by 10% to 20%.
My favorite counterargument about smell & invisibility detection is, "well, we can all smell that fart, but look at how many arguments we have about where it came from."
That said, I wouldn't necessarily consider all monsters to have that ability; and even if they did it would just be "they smell you and charge at you! " That would be a poor call. You may notice them stop and take notice, though, and earth as they start sniffing around trying to reconcile the presence of smell with the absence of sight.
I love the AD&D Illusionist, so many neat nuances. As you say, though, you need a DM who isn't a total stick in the mud about adjudicating the abilities.
The daughter of one of my friends played in my game for a while. Phantasmal Force was her favorite spell, and she used it so well. Very creative. My younger son (just about 8) always takes Ventriloquism, and while he isn't the most focused player (what 7 year old is?) when he does think to use Ventriloquism, he also uses it so creatively. I love theses spells, and how creative people use them.
The AD&D illusionist was one of my favorite classes back in the late 70s and early 80s. And I can remember all of the fighting that went on as to whether illusion damage was a real damage or not. Anyways, you talking about the ventriloquism spell reminded me of something that happened to me about 11 years ago at Gen Con. It was Sunday morning, the last day of Gen Con, and I was playing in a game in which only two of the five other players showed up, they were two old guys like me, turns out they had known Gary Gygax and used to play with him on occasion, but I don’t remember their names. The DM was worried as It was just the three of us, and he said the adventure was a bit of a challenge even for a party of six. We were playing a game of Pathfinder and I am playing the wizard, and it’s a low level game (3rd I think??) and I take evocation and illusion as cantrips and ventriloquism as my 1st level spell. In the game we essentially had to break into a colosseum type building. I don’t remember much about the actual adventure, and what we were doing, but we rode those three spells for everything they were worth, fooling and distracting guards. We got through most of the adventure without hardly a single combat.
Ilusionist type magic-users are really cool when used properly. Man, I wish my players were more invested in OSR games as magic is really powerful and versatile compared to newer editions. What I like the most about OSR Spells is that they are relatively self-explanatory and simple, I shudder when I have to play a Magic-User in Pathfinder 1E because I feel like an actual wizard reading an uncomprensible spellbook just to see what would be the best choice to cast.
I don't remember the AD&D novel from the 1990's, point being two wizards faced off and one created an illusionary dragon. The other wizard went down a list on how feeble the illusion was and took control of it and made it into a living terror and have it snap onto the other wizard's head killing him with a heart attack. Interesting plot element. Later on in my gaming shop groups and we went into 3rdE, wizard/illusionist took a few levels of rogue and maybe with bard cause the illusionist requires high charisma stat. When the mage cast illusion spells, they had to make Craft(illusion), Craft(sounds), follow with Bluff, Preform(acting) and any other social skill roll needed. End result on a good dice roll a multiclass 3rd-level wizard/rogue3 can really bluff, con, a higher level N/PC. Even with AD&D, there are some players will use any or whatever non-weapon proficiency to gain an edge in casting any given spell. And there are some DMs that refuse to run non-weapon proficiencies or magic users in their games cause they don't like figuring out interpterion for spell use descriptions. Such as a 1st-level wizard taking the non-weapon proficiency Preform so they can earn an income casting Cantrip/ Prestidigitation as entertainment.
Illusion magic is awesome with the right referee. Great advice video. Now to get EVERYONE to watch this! Good video to SHARE with all our fellow gamers. Thanks for making this. The D&D game community has just leveled up!
Love it! Because of the way I came up, none of these spells ever seemed cool to me. For years when I started playing (BX at 10 years old) the low level spell lists seemed so lame. Thanks for making me want to play a BX illusionist 30 years later. Your channel rules!
Inspiring! This makes me want to look again at illusions for my next campaign arc. I just hope they're enough like old school Phantasmal Force without going too crazy with the spell levels.
Back in AD&D, my Gnome Illusionists drove my DM's nuts. I would have code words for my illusions, so my allies wouldn't be affected by "spells" like my Phantasmal Force Fireball! My favorite use of Invisibility was while the party was being chased by a trio of Drow in an abandoned dwarven fortress, we dropped a Portcullis and i cast invisibility on it, it gave us a couple extra rounds movement that allowed us to climb up a dry well! Our Dwarf used hi large shield and belly flopped using the shield on the top of the well when we saw the first drow's head sending them tumbling down and allowing us to escape! : )
The dragon magazine article where the dude goes after an owl bear taught me everything. Planning well enough changes a dangerous fight into a fanciful hunt.
Daniel - I love this topic. My BBEG is a high level human magic user in a 1/2e campaign. He has used every illusion spell you’ve mentioned to confuse and confound my players especially Project Image. The party was not expecting an impervious enemy. Another evil MU who is part of an assassins guild has made use of Phantasmal Force to affect a very realistic and effective disguise to get close to the players and help determine their strengths and weaknesses. I’m a big fan of combining Audible Glamor with Phantasmal Force too.
My game shop groups from about 15 years ago ran 3.5e mix with what they like best from AD&D, .. they were power gamers and role players when it come to non-weapon proficiencies. They played for any edge they could get. Spell audible glamor was listed as Craft Sound skill proficiency and Phantasmal Force was Craft illusion. Then during every non-weapon proficiency level bonus they upgraded to cast better illusion spells. Bards had a knack for Crafting Sound. Such thing was put into effect at my first gaming shop back in 1998 during AD&D with non-weapon proficiencies so a low level illusionist could out preform a high level illusionist in a wizard battle during a seasonal fair. Then 3rdE rolled in, a wizard/bard/sorcerer will have more skill ranks in Craft illusion than a single class wizard or other would have. A 7th-level wizard will have 10ranks in a given skill, where a multiclass wizard3/bard3 will have 12ranks. My DM follow the style rules from WotC Star Wars and starts PCs off at 4th-level to have better action and drama. I multiclass aristocrat1/cleric1/rogue1/bard1, CR:3.5 character that is a lover and not a fighter with Diplomacy of 16ranks and Will save of +6/Ref +4.. For six games in a row I was unable to roll anything above an 8 on d20, 3-5 was my average and way too many 1s. I was going for mover and shaker of the realm and merchant trader, the dice rolls made my PC into the village idiot. 2.) My gaming groups also played Whitewolf/World of Darkness: Vampire where it is a multiple d10 dice roll system. 1s are failures and multiple 1s lead up to even more Epic Failures. So some time my DM has us instead of rolling 1d20, we roll 3d6 or 4d6, and at times 5d4 for all actions. The 1s cancel out the 6s, multiple 6s leads to better results and multiple 1s lead to epic failures. We just like to see how bad things can get in play. We had this one Player with a X-men Wolverine fetish, so we hook him up with a neckless of cure critical wounds healing him of 3d6+8hp each round. When attacked by a thorn tip squid amazingly the beast rolled five crits of natural 20s on him, which in 3rdE three natural 20s was death save roll or just be killed out right. We let Wolverine roll to avoid the crits just because, .. he rolled seven critical failures of natural 1s. So anything can happen with the dice. But he was Wolverine so he will eventually heal from it, despite laying in sewer water. 3.) One thing I have notice over twenty years worth of gaming, anytime you give players' PCs max stats with magic items and healing items, they have a problem where the dice will just screw them over.
If anyone's looking for a slightly more involved but still very playable way to adjudicate free form illusions, and has access to Dragon issue 130, there's an excellent article in there called Hold Onto Your Illusions, which gives a really playable system. If you're running a version of D&D with more illusions and/or a player who wants an actual Illusionist specialist PC, it's a huge help.
This is great - I shouted out Ventriloquism in the video you did talking about the Light spell. Subtle magic that can have big impacts is awesome. Edit - Gandalf did this to the trolls right? Ben Kenobi in Star Wars too with the sand-people I think.
Another great video! I’m going to start using illusion magic on my players now to spark their imaginations. We’re playing Maze Rats so the players come up with their spells each morning. I can’t wait to see what sorts of spells they start making.
Thanks for making this video, Daniel. 🤗 You gave me ideas for the uses of illusion spells, you inspired me to come up with my own uses of illusion spells and you inspired me to create an illusionist in AD&D 1st edition. 🤗
New illusion spell idea 💡: Phantasmal Touch! For use when you want to overwhelm or subtlety influence your “audience’s” tactile nervous systems! No visual or auditory component, but may be used alone against blind opponents, in the dark or in concert with other illusions spells to boost verisimilitude.
So they sense something touching them? Interesting- doing spiders creeping all over the body would work with phantasmal force if the spiders were “attacking”
@@BanditsKeep or you could use it to trick dwarfs to go one way rather than another by making them “feel” or sense an incline… one too subtle to see. Or make humans feel running water or pools of water at the end of a hallway after their torch goes out
Awsome video, gave me lots of new ideas for my ongoing 8+year long Becmi campaign! (They are in Alpathia at the moment so you can't turn a stone over whithout finding a magic user of some sort. ;) )
Yeah, best to squash ‘em when they crawl out from under a rock, disgusting things. Don’t use your boot, though - might dirty the underside of your boot. I recommend a bigger rock instead. However, if you’re not a giant, then I recommend fire: magic users can’t concentrate on spells when they’re on fire. 😉
I LAVA this video and Phantasmal force. I remember I used mirror image on my PCs and after the combat the Caster asked me about the spell and that feeling was the best!
Reminds me a lot of the versatility of DCC's magic system. It makes for some really wild and fun combos especially with mercurial magic changing completely how spells work.
Gary may not have been a fan of mages but the spells given certainly provided for clever spellcasters over ground leveling power. To survive long enough for timestop or metor swarm you had to be good with the "tricky" spells first. Lucky for us we also had the Nightmare on Elms streets around this same era too. If the brain thinks it is real, it is. Sure it is wonderful to hear the screams of the orc tribe after a well placed fireball but it is just as rewarding to get them to walk off a cliff too. And funnier in most cases. One of my favorite class combos when those became a thing, was the gnome thief/illusionist. So many ways to cause chaos, so many ways to make the dm shake his head in baffling wonder.
Somehow this came up exactly when I needed it. I'm doing a homebrew based on ESO, LofFP, Swords&Wizardry, etc. The description of Phantasmal Force I was using from ESO confused me, but this explanation really made the intention of the spell very clear. Thank you.
I also think the saving throw of the targets of Illusions should be penalized by the Illusionist's CHA modifier. My rationale being that the Illusionist is trying to convince the target of the validity of the spell. It also helps if the player tries to sell it.
OD&D/BX, unlike 5E, doesn’t rely on the “tug of war” between target # and modifiers for its central mechanical paradigm. The original game didn’t have a central paradigm or cohesive mechanics. It consists of a series of negotiated mini-games between Player and DM. Here context and narrative/fictional positioning is KING.
Such cool video I am just about to multi class as a thief magic user in a homebrew game this has really got the juices flowing g so much so I went out and bought all four of the wizards compendium lol
Talking about making noise, and being smelled while invisible: Use it to create tension. Even the most sharp-nosed creature isn’t going to be able to pinpoint you in a room with no wind, the smell just kind of fills a room. Instead of Invisibility being a game breaking spell that lets the players run around with impunity, there’s tension. An invisible player walks into a room with an orc. The orcs sense of smell alerts the creature to something “new” in the room, and he’ll begin to walk around looking for the source of smell. He’s not alert, the orc isn’t expecting a threat, he’s just walking around looking for something. The player just has to carefully move without bumping into the orc or alerting him or something. The player still gets all the benefits of invisibility, but now the player can’t just mindlessly say, “I search the box on the other end of the room. I move to the container on the other end of the room,” the players got to consider the threat in the room that necessitated the invisibility to begin with.
Another excellent video that has inspired a great deal of thought and brought back some cool memories of the "old days" LOL One question for you regarding Phastasmal Force. It is clear the caster has to have seen the creature/spell effect/object, etc, but what about the Target? If my third level mage (who has seen a Cloudkill spell) casts a Phantasm of that spell, what happens if the target has never seen one? How does the target know what the "cloud" is supposed to do?
I played two magic users back in the day (80s). One was a magic user, the other was an illusionist. Both were great fun. Especially in early levels, you have to be clever and creative, since you aren't dealing much damage - that comes later. My taste runs to fighter types generally, especially the AD&D ranger, but I always enjoyed having an illusionist in the party.
I just wanted to mention: when you were talking about "Ventriloquism" and mentioned magic items "...like, a ring..." I decided right then to introduce a new item into my campaign - "The Scarf Of The Ventriloquist". Because, like you said, it's not a to-go spell choice but it does offer lots of roleplaying fun. My table has runs a vaguely defined 5e/B-X hybrid (we pretty much agree how any given situation should be ruled) so our low-level magic users are relatively weak; like one cantrip to start, though others can be learned and swapped over time. One player has really leaned into this, roleplaying modern stage magic whenever they can. Like: "Of course Your Highness feels dizzy. See? You had this copper piece in Your ear!" Or my favorite: "Your sergeant is in this box because he has displeased me and now - behold! I cleave him in twain!" I really want to see what they could do with Ventriloquism!
@@BanditsKeep it totally is! I haven't seen a table so energized in I don't know how long (and I've been playing since '79)! The other players immediately jumped on board, always suggesting new tricks and acting as "shills" to help sell the bits. He describes his dramatic hand gestures and flourishes, his unnerving "Mesmer Stare". Meanwhile the others build up his reputation; "You mean you've not heard of the Mighty Malagus?" It's really turned the roleplay up to 11!
Demi-Shadow Magic, Shadow Monsters doing up to 60% of real damage cross with Hallucinatory Terrain. Treated as breaking down and reshaping reality around you. Argument, as a 4th level spell Wall of Fire laid flat to burn the ground the 3rd-level spell Demi-Sadow Magic , 4th-level spell Hallucinatory Terrain (=7th-level spell) is doing 60% dmg to all plants, rocks, and life around/within the spell effected area as on mass slow acting 6th-levels Disintegrate spell. Visual examples in media, are the anima movie Aikira along with X-men: Last Stand when Jean Gray is tearing apart the prison and Wolverine as he walks up to her.
@@BanditsKeep Plot point for a 3.5e rohue2/wizard3/sorcerer15 PC becoming a lich, it was a player vs player game and after my PC wreak everyone, he went to join the Elemental Chaos of Limbo. So in a way he defeated himself. So the other players started to calculate my 17d4 wizard hd as 8d8hd outside and went about trying to summon/call my PC back into a magic circle so they could force him to do their biding, .. after they spank him hard., As for 3.5e liches with the statement they could become a lich at 11th-level, all the spells they need other than Wish are 7th-level Reincarnate. Point being instead of becoming an undead mage you can op for becoming a baby dragon or an elemental being such as a genie casting Limited Wish. Or a fairy princess releasing her true form. If the DM will not let you play a devil or fairy, then just play a wizard or sorcerer and behave like a magical being. Then at 10th- or 13th caster level Polymorph yourself into one. There was a guy that played a hulking barbarian necromancer and going for a lich demon warlord, .. but he went with the Random Chart die roll, result he turn into a female most twisted Tinker Bell pixie you ever did see.
It is interest that in both Basic and AD&D 1st and 2nd edition invisibility is a 2nd level magic user spell but the silence spell is a 2nd level cleric spell - so if a character (say a thief) wants the full monty of invisibility and silence they need both a magic user and cleric to co-operate.
Projected image seems really good for military campaign games too. Project the magic user in the air as an aerial artillery that is immune to arrow fire. Have the wizard in a protected location with sight and rain down fire balls and lightning bolts. I figure the Napoleon strategy of artillery followed by a calvary charge would work with the wizard filling the role of artillery. But the artillery is floating in the air and seemingly immune to attack.
I like how it mimics other spells in the game. People can get fooled and think the floating wizard has just tossed Protection From Missiles on themselves.
Invisibility needs a light source in order to work or infravision will denounce the location of an invisible being/thing. That's a point a lot of players and DMs do not notice.
@@BanditsKeep This is a divide between OD&D/Basic and AD&D - in OD&D it is 'the person or thing upon whom or which it is cast', in the Basic rules it is 'any one person or object'. In I1st and 2nd edition AD&D, however, the 'Area of Effect is 'Creature Touched'.
1:26 mins in and you’ve already hit gold. If the PCs come up against a big bad monster and BOOM magic user drops him with a creatively timed spell. That is awesome! It was cool when Indiana Jones shot the Big Sword Wielding Thug, and it’s still cool 🎉
Though based on AD&D1e and not BX, in the Gary Gygax novel, Artifact of Evil, when the massmorphed party attacked enemies, the spell ended and the party did become visible.
Another thought with regard to Projected Image: this spell is even more versatile when combined with Wizard Eye, as it allows the magic-user to move around corners and still see opponents.
High-level thieves can read scrolls in some editions, right? A thief could sneak in, assassinate someone, Invisibility breaks, then pull out a scroll and wham, Invisible again.
I like the old Mirror Image. Some new versions cheapen it by making the wizard roll if they or an Image gets hit. But then you roll up three Images, and you still have a 1 in 4 of getting slapped. I like how it works like ablative armour and makes wizards a little more survivable. Ventriloquism is sometimes needlessly powered down with a shorter duration or range. It's heckin' Ventriloquism, I see no need for that. People don't use it when they are forced to stand around the corner to do it. You want to toss it into the next room over. I'm generally not a fan of spells that create permanent magic effects. Maybe long-lasting like several hours, days or a week for something like a Magic Mouth. A Hallucinatory Terrain or Massmorph that lasts for a week or a day is still more than enough to confuse an army during a skirmish. The no-attacks limit is pretty nice for level 2 Invisibility. They're not going to use it for cheap assassinations. A thief with Invisibility would definitely get a backstab for free but then the orcs can see them again. Requiring the Invisible bloke to carry a lightsource is another, but then the wizard just doubles up on Infravision and Invisibility, or tosses it on the robot who has heat vision. The only ways to ruin it is to actively screw up, like opening a door in front of a guard, or get unlucky when someone uses Detect Invisibility. Projected Image sounds nice. Someone who shoots the Projected Image will just think "Drats, that guy used Protection From Missiles. Now we'll have to hack through the skeletons to get them." Or they will fall into a trap, and have three thieves sneak up and backstab the Projected Image but then you have three thieves standing revealed.
I got jacked by a dm with the "smell invisible" ability. Flying and invisible, using caution but no, the instant I floated in over the stair railing... I always liked phantasmal forces I generally used illusion to add to, or accentuate a given thing happening in the world. Thickening a missile barrage or yelling from one direction into many and stuff like that. Invisibility 10'r is golden imo.
Yeah they smell thing is very monster dependent and while I would not say it should never be the case, I think many people over estimate what a good sense of smell can do - it’s not instant locate by any means IMO
In a campaign I'm running, one of the players is playing a goblin who has been Invisible (via a scroll) fo about a month, and been carefully maintaining that, thanks to the writing. To quote O.D.B., "Oh, baby, I like it R.A.W."
When you casually said, @11:12, when you put it back in it won't be invisible anymore, my head completely melted. Never have come across that. So, why wouldn't it be? The book wasn't affected by the spell, but is invisible only until removed? So, the invisibility isn't like an opaque curtain? So, why was the book originally invisible? Dude, this is like breaking down a time travel movie
@@BanditsKeep it's a class that didn't understand the purpose of for over a decade, and then this past spring as I watched your videos and read the OSE advanced classes and OSE spells, I came to understand how much more powerful the bx/OSE illusionist(and other spell casters) are compared to their 5e competitors. Yeah, 5e gets more spells, but that dilutes the feeling of awe you get when you can a spell in OSE/BX.
An illusion might not DIRECTLY do harm to an enemy, but if it makes them pass out in a dangerous place (e.g. on a tightrope or ladder or rope bridge or bridge without railings), then they might fall to their deaths.
One great thing about the Phantasmal Force spell is that it is like having a dozen or more spells in one. Need a wall spell? No problem. Need a lightning spell? No sweat. A fire creature you say? I've got just the creature to send at it. A water elemental. Or maybe an ice storm would be better? Need some extra troops? How about an illusion of skeletons coming out of the ground. The possibilities are endless. And they get even better with experience as you yourself see magic effects and monsters that you can reproduce with your illusions.
Illusion spells are the best ;) Hate to see how newer versions of D&D complete missed the boat on them and 'nerfed' them etc. Basically locking down creativity in favor of game balance. Trust betwen PC & GM is a better approach and could have been stated specifically concerning that school of spells . Great conversation!
Except that illusion spells like Major Image and Minor Illusion are still very open-ended in how you can use them in fifth edition. The need for the DM to not be a problem hasn't changed with illusions.
Are you asking how long it lasts in 5e? I’m not sure - in Original D&D (Greyhawk) and BX D&D - which is what I’m talking about here (OSR) - it lasts 6 turns… 1 turn=10 minutes, so one hour total.
You absolutely can lift your Invisibility spell from the object. Just attack it! Should work good with that ring, you mentioned, and not so good with that valuable vase, party snitched from palace :) Kinda funny if party would use it for quest. -Did you retrieve my family insignia from this awful dungeon, and protected it from those vicious thiefs of the guild? -Sure! -Where it is?! -Hold оn a second! *smacking the air*
Some of the best illusions are the subtle ones. Instead of an Illusion of a dragon, you make an Illusion of yourself as an orc captain. Now you can walk right on in plain sight, the orcs are not going to spontanously attack their captain. If you speak orc you might as well question a sentry or issue a day order to some. I think this was split into Disguise later on, a spell specifically to look like another generic humanoid. If you make an illusion of a flumph spaceship landing with a platoon of flumph parading out, chances are someone out there will toss magic on it just because it's such an outrageous thing. But they're not going to toss magic on a forest they pass through, unless it does something weird.
Back in the day (2nd edition) we had a gnome illusionist/psionicist. If you didnt believe his illusions, he'd mind control you and make you believe it. He could also do a bit of psychic healing, and exert some telekinetic force, both of which he'd use to put real effects into his illusions. By the later stages of the campaign we the party believed he was a gnomish god slumming with us.
I picked up Lavender (already had white) - seems interesting but almost 200 pages for a set of rules turns me off unfortunately no matter how good they might be. I see everyone talking about EZd6, but I have not looked at it..
BX RAW invisibility is very, very powerful. As per X34 you surprise on a 1-5 (unless the DM wants to rule that the stalker is somehow different-- but it isn't intangible or silent, so how can it be any more invisible?) You can't be "noticed," so as per B10 if you're a thief you get backstab. As per B17 you are still an infrared source, but as per B21 infravision won't help unless you're invisible in total darkness. While it's true that you aren't also silent, that doesn't matter because even if the victim somehow becomes aware of your presence, BX has no blindfighting mechanic, no roll for disbelief, and no automatic chance for detection like the one in AD&D 1e (i.e. 1ePH 70). In fact you could just as easily argue that as per B15 victims aren't allowed to attack an invisible creature at all. Invisibility specifically ends when the target casts spells or attacks, so you can use many non-scroll magical items, make noise, splash the ground with oil, turn undead, kiss the victim, or even take damage and the spell simply continues.
Mind blown! I have always avoided playing Illusionists, because, even after having pre-game discussions, I am never confident my imaginative ideas will stand with my Judges. Find new Judges? I don’t want to play 5e.
It can be very rewarding once you get into the illusion business 😊 - there are plenty of good illusion spells in 5e, they just tend to be overly specific for my taste
Darkness/Light can have the same function as well. At least Darkness, so far as it messes with their perception of the target. Darkness specifically targets all infravision as well, so monsters that are normally able to perceive things in the dark suddenly have an orb of nothing in front of them. I usually roll a morale check to see how monsters unused to this reacts. Most people are not willing to charge into a dark room blindly, and neither are most monsters. If the PCs couple this with surprises like glass shards, marbles etc they can leave them a nasty surprise in there. It makes the monsters and others stall just enough that you can leg it around a corner yourselves.
Just think about an Illusionist with a secondary skill of "Sound/Voice Imitations". What a ventriloquist they would make! That baby in the woods distracting the kobolds. The growl of dogs heading towards them with the sound of rustling leaves.
In OD&D there's no skills, you just tell the DM you want to be a guy who has practiced voice imitations. Or you learn it during the campaign. One of my wizards spent months learning how to passably play the trumpet and then just kept on.
An enormous grove of trees that the king tends to go hunting in A truly wild and impassible wood But is in fact a mass of skeleton reserve troops disguised in plain sight
Baby dragon: "Won't you Pleeeeeeeeease be my friend?" Dwarf: "Yeah, sure, when monkeys fly out of my ...." Elf: *phantasmal force* Baby dragon: "They are! They are!" Dwarf ( to Elf) "I hate you."
In 5e, invisibility is so easily accessible and readily available that you kinda have to be tough on it. Otherwise, my Gloom stalker ranger is just invincible for the entire duration of a dark dungeon run. 5e kinda ruined invisibility with making it so easy to get and have all the time.
All this smoke and mirrors just makes me think of Detect Invisibility, the spell to quickly test if something outrageous is really there. How much could OD&D Detect Invisibility detect? I usually rule that Detect Magic is not going to detect invisible stuff or things hidden behind an illusion. But that Detect Illusion lets you draw back the veil on a lot of illusionist stuff. It's still a spell slot so you can't toss Detect Inv willy-nilly on everything. Most wizards save it for when something blatantly outrageous comes along. If you run a subtle illusion, they won't even think of testing it. The basic guards aren't going to have it, and the wizard who does can't be everywhere. But once in a while you will get unlucky, and a bloke with Detect Inv or a magic item with a similar effect is going to make her inspection round as you sneak about. A dungeon floor were a single encounter has Detect Inv and moves through the area might be a fun challenge once.
Dude, if your dwarf is in a heavy armor and you want to make him silent you either change the spell for anyone before the session or find a way to make him silent (like doff the armor). You have to premiate your player being clever, if they don't find a solution is on them; The game shouldn't adapt to players, the players have to adapt to the game!
@@BanditsKeep you think the game should be adapted to the players instead? I believe it doesn't work well simply by the nature of games, but I would really like to know your point of view
@@BanditsKeep my idea is that the game is based on things we understand in real life, some armor make noise and if you are too close you can hear it, it can be a hinderance or it can be used in a creative way, it all depends on players, in most culture the sound of chains is connected to ghost so most creature will notice the sound but for sure freak out or have some other reaction that can be equally useful. If you stay as faithful to reality, even if sometimes feel detrimental often requiring problem solving or requiring sacrifices, you open up possibilities to more interesting (and immersive) play, but again even with this mentality if you want everybody on being silent you can doff the armor or use some other shenanigan to make it silent (some rope and wool might be enough)
@@Stone_OrchidsI hope you make all that clear before the dwarf tries to sneak. Players need to understand the rules to make good choices. Also “silent” is not the same as sneaking or surprise IMO
I once had a villian npc wizard cast illusion on his house cats to look like lions. The party who was breaking into his manor to steal his newest invention, killed two of the "lions" in one shot. They were horrified to discover they were cats. The wizard didn't even fight them as he was besought himself with grief over the loss of his cats. The party was unwelcome in the next town as the people who killed an old mans cats while robbing him. 🤣 And that, is how you properly screw with your players 😁
@BanditsKeep nope. 😅 They, like house cats, were lounging and watching. The group thought they had the drop on them. That was how our group ran. They were so powerful, and for that campaign, I didn't want to throw anything actually lethal at them. So I got creative. I once had them fight what they thought was a hag holding a village of goblins as hostages to do her bidding. What they didn't expect was that it was actually an old lady with an evil enchanted sentient frying pan who made an "armor" of baby papooses that held all the goblins babies. Can't hit her if you don't want to hurt something important, and at the same time the goblins didn't want her to eat their kids or you hurt the kids while attempting to stop her. 😁 They did eventually sneak up on her during combat and knocked her out, saved the babies, brokered peace between the misunderstood goblins and the irate farmers they were forced to attack, and eventually changed the alignment of the frying pan and turned it into a living flintlock pistol who became the teams mascot and moral compass for good.
The best way to think of Projected Image is the scen between Luke Skywalker and Crylo Ren. He's dodging and talking smack to distract his enemy before revealing the illusion and disappearing. Gods, I just threw up in my mouth referencing that shitstorm of a movie.
The pedantry that goes into ruining magic and fantasy really pisses me off l, even though I'm guilty of it too. Invisibility, taken scientifically, is totally implausible. But FFS, let's assume magic spells work the way we want them to, not how if they were for realz. Invisibility, being an illusion, erases the invisible party from the perception of the intended victim. It does not actually block out smell, sight, sounds etc. Instead it clouds the minds of the victims so they ignore their senses. That's how I imagine it working.
It's worth mentioning that Phantasmal Force calls for a save vs. spells to avoid the outcome of an illusionary effect, whereas the original effect, like say a medusa's petrification or a dragon's breath, entails saving throws that are usually easier than that. Disabling foes for 1d4 turns is as good as killing them, so this is pretty significant, since it can increase the chance of success by 10% to 20%.
Indeed
My favorite counterargument about smell & invisibility detection is, "well, we can all smell that fart, but look at how many arguments we have about where it came from."
Makes sense to me
@@BanditsKeepmakes scents to me
That holds us only so far. We may or may not all be able to smell that illicit substance, but that dog knows *exactly* where that smell is coming from
That said, I wouldn't necessarily consider all monsters to have that ability; and even if they did it would just be "they smell you and charge at you! " That would be a poor call. You may notice them stop and take notice, though, and earth as they start sniffing around trying to reconcile the presence of smell with the absence of sight.
@@kontrarien5721saving throws exist for a reason
I love the AD&D Illusionist, so many neat nuances. As you say, though, you need a DM who isn't a total stick in the mud about adjudicating the abilities.
For sure
The daughter of one of my friends played in my game for a while. Phantasmal Force was her favorite spell, and she used it so well. Very creative. My younger son (just about 8) always takes Ventriloquism, and while he isn't the most focused player (what 7 year old is?) when he does think to use Ventriloquism, he also uses it so creatively. I love theses spells, and how creative people use them.
That’s great!
The AD&D illusionist was one of my favorite classes back in the late 70s and early 80s. And I can remember all of the fighting that went on as to whether illusion damage was a real damage or not.
Anyways, you talking about the ventriloquism spell reminded me of something that happened to me about 11 years ago at Gen Con. It was Sunday morning, the last day of Gen Con, and I was playing in a game in which only two of the five other players showed up, they were two old guys like me, turns out they had known Gary Gygax and used to play with him on occasion, but I don’t remember their names. The DM was worried as It was just the three of us, and he said the adventure was a bit of a challenge even for a party of six.
We were playing a game of Pathfinder and I am playing the wizard, and it’s a low level game (3rd I think??) and I take evocation and illusion as cantrips and ventriloquism as my 1st level spell.
In the game we essentially had to break into a colosseum type building. I don’t remember much about the actual adventure, and what we were doing, but we rode those three spells for everything they were worth, fooling and distracting guards. We got through most of the adventure without hardly a single combat.
Awesome
Awesome
Ilusionist type magic-users are really cool when used properly. Man, I wish my players were more invested in OSR games as magic is really powerful and versatile compared to newer editions.
What I like the most about OSR Spells is that they are relatively self-explanatory and simple, I shudder when I have to play a Magic-User in Pathfinder 1E because I feel like an actual wizard reading an uncomprensible spellbook just to see what would be the best choice to cast.
I hear you, when I run OD&D I rarely even give the Magic Users spell descriptions, just the names and I say "you know what it does" lol
please go try and read dcc and while the spells and tables are complicated magic in that game is something else.
@@BanditsKeep which version. I’m running Whitebox FMAG. It’s so simple!
I don't remember the AD&D novel from the 1990's, point being two wizards faced off and one created an illusionary dragon. The other wizard went down a list on how feeble the illusion was and took control of it and made it into a living terror and have it snap onto the other wizard's head killing him with a heart attack. Interesting plot element.
Later on in my gaming shop groups and we went into 3rdE, wizard/illusionist took a few levels of rogue and maybe with bard cause the illusionist requires high charisma stat.
When the mage cast illusion spells, they had to make Craft(illusion), Craft(sounds), follow with Bluff, Preform(acting) and any other social skill roll needed.
End result on a good dice roll a multiclass 3rd-level wizard/rogue3 can really bluff, con, a higher level N/PC.
Even with AD&D, there are some players will use any or whatever non-weapon proficiency to gain an edge in casting any given spell. And there are some DMs that refuse to run non-weapon proficiencies or magic users in their games cause they don't like figuring out interpterion for spell use descriptions.
Such as a 1st-level wizard taking the non-weapon proficiency Preform so they can earn an income casting Cantrip/ Prestidigitation as entertainment.
Ah yes 2e and the non weapon proficiencies, good stuff
Illusion magic is awesome with the right referee. Great advice video. Now to get EVERYONE to watch this! Good video to SHARE with all our fellow gamers.
Thanks for making this. The D&D game community has just leveled up!
Thank You!
Love it! Because of the way I came up, none of these spells ever seemed cool to me. For years when I started playing (BX at 10 years old) the low level spell lists seemed so lame. Thanks for making me want to play a BX illusionist 30 years later. Your channel rules!
Awesome!
Great video, makes me happy to be the dm. My players don’t tend to gravitate towards illusion magic, but I am more than game.
Cool
Great video, a must see for players new to magic-users.
Thank You!
Inspiring! This makes me want to look again at illusions for my next campaign arc. I just hope they're enough like old school Phantasmal Force without going too crazy with the spell levels.
Illusionist as a class?
@@BanditsKeep For the NPCs. I'm thinking an illusion-specialist as a boss.
Back in AD&D, my Gnome Illusionists drove my DM's nuts. I would have code words for my illusions, so my allies wouldn't be affected by "spells" like my Phantasmal Force Fireball!
My favorite use of Invisibility was while the party was being chased by a trio of Drow in an abandoned dwarven fortress, we dropped a Portcullis and i cast invisibility on it, it gave us a couple extra rounds movement that allowed us to climb up a dry well! Our Dwarf used hi large shield and belly flopped using the shield on the top of the well when we saw the first drow's head sending them tumbling down and allowing us to escape! : )
Awesome
Another good video! You have a way of explaining magic users and their "outside of the box" usefulness in ways I cannot.
Thanks
The dragon magazine article where the dude goes after an owl bear taught me everything. Planning well enough changes a dangerous fight into a fanciful hunt.
For sure
Daniel - I love this topic. My BBEG is a high level human magic user in a 1/2e campaign. He has used every illusion spell you’ve mentioned to confuse and confound my players especially Project Image. The party was not expecting an impervious enemy.
Another evil MU who is part of an assassins guild has made use of Phantasmal Force to affect a very realistic and effective disguise to get close to the players and help determine their strengths and weaknesses.
I’m a big fan of combining Audible Glamor with Phantasmal Force too.
Nice
My game shop groups from about 15 years ago ran 3.5e mix with what they like best from AD&D, .. they were power gamers and role players when it come to non-weapon proficiencies. They played for any edge they could get.
Spell audible glamor was listed as Craft Sound skill proficiency and Phantasmal Force was Craft illusion. Then during every non-weapon proficiency level bonus they upgraded to cast better illusion spells. Bards had a knack for Crafting Sound.
Such thing was put into effect at my first gaming shop back in 1998 during AD&D with non-weapon proficiencies so a low level illusionist could out preform a high level illusionist in a wizard battle during a seasonal fair.
Then 3rdE rolled in, a wizard/bard/sorcerer will have more skill ranks in Craft illusion than a single class wizard or other would have.
A 7th-level wizard will have 10ranks in a given skill, where a multiclass wizard3/bard3 will have 12ranks.
My DM follow the style rules from WotC Star Wars and starts PCs off at 4th-level to have better action and drama. I multiclass aristocrat1/cleric1/rogue1/bard1, CR:3.5 character that is a lover and not a fighter with Diplomacy of 16ranks and Will save of +6/Ref +4.. For six games in a row I was unable to roll anything above an 8 on d20, 3-5 was my average and way too many 1s. I was going for mover and shaker of the realm and merchant trader, the dice rolls made my PC into the village idiot.
2.) My gaming groups also played Whitewolf/World of Darkness: Vampire where it is a multiple d10 dice roll system. 1s are failures and multiple 1s lead up to even more Epic Failures. So some time my DM has us instead of rolling 1d20, we roll 3d6 or 4d6, and at times 5d4 for all actions. The 1s cancel out the 6s, multiple 6s leads to better results and multiple 1s lead to epic failures. We just like to see how bad things can get in play.
We had this one Player with a X-men Wolverine fetish, so we hook him up with a neckless of cure critical wounds healing him of 3d6+8hp each round. When attacked by a thorn tip squid amazingly the beast rolled five crits of natural 20s on him, which in 3rdE three natural 20s was death save roll or just be killed out right. We let Wolverine roll to avoid the crits just because, .. he rolled seven critical failures of natural 1s. So anything can happen with the dice. But he was Wolverine so he will eventually heal from it, despite laying in sewer water.
3.) One thing I have notice over twenty years worth of gaming, anytime you give players' PCs max stats with magic items and healing items, they have a problem where the dice will just screw them over.
i wish i could upvote this more than once.
Thanks 😊
If anyone's looking for a slightly more involved but still very playable way to adjudicate free form illusions, and has access to Dragon issue 130, there's an excellent article in there called Hold Onto Your Illusions, which gives a really playable system. If you're running a version of D&D with more illusions and/or a player who wants an actual Illusionist specialist PC, it's a huge help.
Interesting- though I’m not sure more rules is the answer for me, it could help some groups
Yeah, I only suggest it as an option if someone wants more detailed guidelines for adjudication.
This is great - I shouted out Ventriloquism in the video you did talking about the Light spell. Subtle magic that can have big impacts is awesome. Edit - Gandalf did this to the trolls right? Ben Kenobi in Star Wars too with the sand-people I think.
For sure!
What a great conversation about these spells. If I ever get to play as a character again, I will be an illusionist. 😊
Thanks
Man your videos inspire me I like all the different points you talk about. I appreciate it
Thank You!
Another great video! I’m going to start using illusion magic on my players now to spark their imaginations. We’re playing Maze Rats so the players come up with their spells each morning. I can’t wait to see what sorts of spells they start making.
Very cool, Maze rats is a fun system!
Thanks for making this video, Daniel. 🤗 You gave me ideas for the uses of illusion spells, you inspired me to come up with my own uses of illusion spells and you inspired me to create an illusionist in AD&D 1st edition. 🤗
Awesome!
New illusion spell idea 💡: Phantasmal Touch!
For use when you want to overwhelm or subtlety influence your “audience’s” tactile nervous systems! No visual or auditory component, but may be used alone against blind opponents, in the dark or in concert with other illusions spells to boost verisimilitude.
So they sense something touching them? Interesting- doing spiders creeping all over the body would work with phantasmal force if the spiders were “attacking”
@@BanditsKeep or you could use it to trick dwarfs to go one way rather than another by making them “feel” or sense an incline… one too subtle to see. Or make humans feel running water or pools of water at the end of a hallway after their torch goes out
@@jaytomioka3137 awesome
Awsome video, gave me lots of new ideas for my ongoing 8+year long Becmi campaign! (They are in Alpathia at the moment so you can't turn a stone over whithout finding a magic user of some sort. ;) )
Cool
Yeah, best to squash ‘em when they crawl out from under a rock, disgusting things. Don’t use your boot, though - might dirty the underside of your boot. I recommend a bigger rock instead.
However, if you’re not a giant, then I recommend fire: magic users can’t concentrate on spells when they’re on fire. 😉
I LAVA this video and Phantasmal force. I remember I used mirror image on my PCs and after the combat the Caster asked me about the spell and that feeling was the best!
Nice! Mirror image can be super fun - projected image at high levels can really be powerful as well
Reminds me a lot of the versatility of DCC's magic system. It makes for some really wild and fun combos especially with mercurial magic changing completely how spells work.
DCC definitely has a flavor all its own
The Illusion Spells from The Fantasy Trip are absolutely wild.
Ah yes, I have been going through the box, playing a bunch of Melee, but I have read through Wizard and it seems like a blast
@@BanditsKeep try making a 34 pt and 3 31pt char. That is usually what I have each player make to start with for Fantasy Trip.
Gary may not have been a fan of mages but the spells given certainly provided for clever spellcasters over ground leveling power. To survive long enough for timestop or metor swarm you had to be good with the "tricky" spells first. Lucky for us we also had the Nightmare on Elms streets around this same era too. If the brain thinks it is real, it is. Sure it is wonderful to hear the screams of the orc tribe after a well placed fireball but it is just as rewarding to get them to walk off a cliff too. And funnier in most cases. One of my favorite class combos when those became a thing, was the gnome thief/illusionist. So many ways to cause chaos, so many ways to make the dm shake his head in baffling wonder.
Awesome
Getting them to walk off a cliff? Inspired by the Wizard of Earthsea?
Somehow this came up exactly when I needed it. I'm doing a homebrew based on ESO, LofFP, Swords&Wizardry, etc. The description of Phantasmal Force I was using from ESO confused me, but this explanation really made the intention of the spell very clear. Thank you.
Awesome, glad I could help
I also think the saving throw of the targets of Illusions should be penalized by the Illusionist's CHA modifier. My rationale being that the Illusionist is trying to convince the target of the validity of the spell. It also helps if the player tries to sell it.
I could see that for some spells - though many times the victim will not know the MU is even casting
OD&D/BX, unlike 5E, doesn’t rely on the “tug of war” between target # and modifiers for its central mechanical paradigm.
The original game didn’t have a central paradigm or cohesive mechanics. It consists of a series of negotiated mini-games between
Player and DM. Here context and narrative/fictional positioning is KING.
I agree about the usefulness of Mirror Image. A spell so awesome, even Dr. Strange uses it! ;)
For sure
Great video, man!
Thank You!
Thanks Daniel, Illusion advice is always useful and appreciated.
You are very welcome 🙏🏻
Wow! Great one, Daniel
Thanks 😊
Really excellent Daniel ty
Thanks 😊
I enjoy your content so very much!
Thank You!
Great video as always, really appreciate your insights.
Thank You!
Another great vid, always inspiring. Thanks!
Thank You!
Such cool video I am just about to multi class as a thief magic user in a homebrew game this has really got the juices flowing g so much so I went out and bought all four of the wizards compendium lol
Awesome
Talking about making noise, and being smelled while invisible:
Use it to create tension. Even the most sharp-nosed creature isn’t going to be able to pinpoint you in a room with no wind, the smell just kind of fills a room. Instead of Invisibility being a game breaking spell that lets the players run around with impunity, there’s tension.
An invisible player walks into a room with an orc. The orcs sense of smell alerts the creature to something “new” in the room, and he’ll begin to walk around looking for the source of smell. He’s not alert, the orc isn’t expecting a threat, he’s just walking around looking for something. The player just has to carefully move without bumping into the orc or alerting him or something.
The player still gets all the benefits of invisibility, but now the player can’t just mindlessly say, “I search the box on the other end of the room. I move to the container on the other end of the room,” the players got to consider the threat in the room that necessitated the invisibility to begin with.
Another excellent video that has inspired a great deal of thought and brought back some cool memories of the "old days" LOL
One question for you regarding Phastasmal Force. It is clear the caster has to have seen the creature/spell effect/object, etc, but what about the Target? If my third level mage (who has seen a Cloudkill spell) casts a Phantasm of that spell, what happens if the target has never seen one? How does the target know what the "cloud" is supposed to do?
They know because it is magic - and illusion spell is not just a projected image but a kind of mental control/trick
I enjoy all of your videos but the last two (player skill and Phantasmal forces) have been really excellent! Great job Daniel 👍👍
Thank You!
I played two magic users back in the day (80s). One was a magic user, the other was an illusionist. Both were great fun. Especially in early levels, you have to be clever and creative, since you aren't dealing much damage - that comes later. My taste runs to fighter types generally, especially the AD&D ranger, but I always enjoyed having an illusionist in the party.
Awesome
The massmorph suggestion is the most terrifying thing I've ever heard. Holy cow
My players do not call me an “evil DM” without cause 😉
@@BanditsKeep I love it. Definitely borrowing
I just wanted to mention: when you were talking about "Ventriloquism" and mentioned magic items "...like, a ring..." I decided right then to introduce a new item into my campaign - "The Scarf Of The Ventriloquist". Because, like you said, it's not a to-go spell choice but it does offer lots of roleplaying fun.
My table has runs a vaguely defined 5e/B-X hybrid (we pretty much agree how any given situation should be ruled) so our low-level magic users are relatively weak; like one cantrip to start, though others can be learned and swapped over time. One player has really leaned into this, roleplaying modern stage magic whenever they can.
Like: "Of course Your Highness feels dizzy. See? You had this copper piece in Your ear!"
Or my favorite: "Your sergeant is in this box because he has displeased me and now - behold! I cleave him in twain!"
I really want to see what they could do with Ventriloquism!
Sounds fun
@@BanditsKeep it totally is! I haven't seen a table so energized in I don't know how long (and I've been playing since '79)!
The other players immediately jumped on board, always suggesting new tricks and acting as "shills" to help sell the bits. He describes his dramatic hand gestures and flourishes, his unnerving "Mesmer Stare". Meanwhile the others build up his reputation; "You mean you've not heard of the Mighty Malagus?"
It's really turned the roleplay up to 11!
Hallucinatory Terrain to create a fake chasm 100' behind the real chasm, while making the real chasm look like a grassy field.
Nice!
Demi-Shadow Magic, Shadow Monsters doing up to 60% of real damage cross with Hallucinatory Terrain.
Treated as breaking down and reshaping reality around you.
Argument, as a 4th level spell Wall of Fire laid flat to burn the ground the 3rd-level spell Demi-Sadow Magic , 4th-level spell Hallucinatory Terrain (=7th-level spell) is doing 60% dmg to all plants, rocks, and life around/within the spell effected area as on mass slow acting 6th-levels Disintegrate spell.
Visual examples in media, are the anima movie Aikira along with X-men: Last Stand when Jean Gray is tearing apart the prison and Wolverine as he walks up to her.
Interesting
@@BanditsKeep Plot point for a 3.5e rohue2/wizard3/sorcerer15 PC becoming a lich, it was a player vs player game and after my PC wreak everyone, he went to join the Elemental Chaos of Limbo. So in a way he defeated himself.
So the other players started to calculate my 17d4 wizard hd as 8d8hd outside and went about trying to summon/call my PC back into a magic circle so they could force him to do their biding, .. after they spank him hard.,
As for 3.5e liches with the statement they could become a lich at 11th-level, all the spells they need other than Wish are 7th-level Reincarnate. Point being instead of becoming an undead mage you can op for becoming a baby dragon or an elemental being such as a genie casting Limited Wish.
Or a fairy princess releasing her true form.
If the DM will not let you play a devil or fairy, then just play a wizard or sorcerer and behave like a magical being. Then at 10th- or 13th caster level Polymorph yourself into one.
There was a guy that played a hulking barbarian necromancer and going for a lich demon warlord, .. but he went with the Random Chart die roll, result he turn into a female most twisted Tinker Bell pixie you ever did see.
Good stuff
Thank You!
Another reason I love Dungeon Crawl Classics. The magic is super powerful and unpredictable
Indeed
It is interest that in both Basic and AD&D 1st and 2nd edition invisibility is a 2nd level magic user spell but the silence spell is a 2nd level cleric spell - so if a character (say a thief) wants the full monty of invisibility and silence they need both a magic user and cleric to co-operate.
Team work!
Projected image seems really good for military campaign games too. Project the magic user in the air as an aerial artillery that is immune to arrow fire. Have the wizard in a protected location with sight and rain down fire balls and lightning bolts.
I figure the Napoleon strategy of artillery followed by a calvary charge would work with the wizard filling the role of artillery. But the artillery is floating in the air and seemingly immune to attack.
Yes!
I like how it mimics other spells in the game. People can get fooled and think the floating wizard has just tossed Protection From Missiles on themselves.
Invisibility needs a light source in order to work or infravision will denounce the location of an invisible being/thing. That's a point a lot of players and DMs do not notice.
Not at my table.
If you cast invisibility on a weapon and then you attack something would that end the spell?
Good question - I could see it working either way.
OSE advanced adds some more illusion spells inspired by AD&D and you can always work on discovering new spells with the DM as well!!
For sure
You need sequester (7th) level to turn an object invisible.
invisibility (2nd) level spell only works on creatures.
Did I miss something?
What rules are you using? Every rule set I have says you can turn objects invisible
And interesting enough you kinda made my point about over complicating and holding back spells
@@BanditsKeep This is a divide between OD&D/Basic and AD&D - in OD&D it is 'the person or thing upon whom or which it is cast', in the Basic rules it is 'any one person or object'. In I1st and 2nd edition AD&D, however, the 'Area of Effect is 'Creature Touched'.
A level 7 spell to turn an object invisible is a bit strange. Why is it such a high level?
1:26 mins in and you’ve already hit gold. If the PCs come up against a big bad monster and BOOM magic user drops him with a creatively timed spell. That is awesome! It was cool when Indiana Jones shot the Big Sword Wielding Thug, and it’s still cool 🎉
For sure
Though based on AD&D1e and not BX, in the Gary Gygax novel, Artifact of Evil, when the massmorphed party attacked enemies, the spell ended and the party did become visible.
A novel is not an RPG 😊 - I haven’t looked at AD&D in a while but it may be so in that version
@@BanditsKeep It might be - I haven't looked at AD&D in a long time, either.
Another thought with regard to Projected Image: this spell is even more versatile when combined with Wizard Eye, as it allows the magic-user to move around corners and still see opponents.
Yes!
The Illusionist is is the most underestimated character imo
Something as simple as a sinkhole opening up at your opponents feet is very useful
For sure!
High-level thieves can read scrolls in some editions, right? A thief could sneak in, assassinate someone, Invisibility breaks, then pull out a scroll and wham, Invisible again.
Indeed
I like the old Mirror Image. Some new versions cheapen it by making the wizard roll if they or an Image gets hit. But then you roll up three Images, and you still have a 1 in 4 of getting slapped. I like how it works like ablative armour and makes wizards a little more survivable.
Ventriloquism is sometimes needlessly powered down with a shorter duration or range. It's heckin' Ventriloquism, I see no need for that. People don't use it when they are forced to stand around the corner to do it. You want to toss it into the next room over.
I'm generally not a fan of spells that create permanent magic effects. Maybe long-lasting like several hours, days or a week for something like a Magic Mouth. A Hallucinatory Terrain or Massmorph that lasts for a week or a day is still more than enough to confuse an army during a skirmish.
The no-attacks limit is pretty nice for level 2 Invisibility. They're not going to use it for cheap assassinations. A thief with Invisibility would definitely get a backstab for free but then the orcs can see them again. Requiring the Invisible bloke to carry a lightsource is another, but then the wizard just doubles up on Infravision and Invisibility, or tosses it on the robot who has heat vision. The only ways to ruin it is to actively screw up, like opening a door in front of a guard, or get unlucky when someone uses Detect Invisibility.
Projected Image sounds nice. Someone who shoots the Projected Image will just think "Drats, that guy used Protection From Missiles. Now we'll have to hack through the skeletons to get them." Or they will fall into a trap, and have three thieves sneak up and backstab the Projected Image but then you have three thieves standing revealed.
This is really helpful!
Thanks
Man, my guys know to avoid anything menacing and come back when you’ve got a plan.
Smart
I got jacked by a dm with the "smell invisible" ability. Flying and invisible, using caution but no, the instant I floated in over the stair railing...
I always liked phantasmal forces I generally used illusion to add to, or accentuate a given thing happening in the world. Thickening a missile barrage or yelling from one direction into many and stuff like that. Invisibility 10'r is golden imo.
Yeah they smell thing is very monster dependent and while I would not say it should never be the case, I think many people over estimate what a good sense of smell can do - it’s not instant locate by any means IMO
In a campaign I'm running, one of the players is playing a goblin who has been Invisible (via a scroll) fo about a month, and been carefully maintaining that, thanks to the writing. To quote O.D.B., "Oh, baby, I like it R.A.W."
Nice
When you casually said, @11:12, when you put it back in it won't be invisible anymore, my head completely melted. Never have come across that.
So, why wouldn't it be? The book wasn't affected by the spell, but is invisible only until removed? So, the invisibility isn't like an opaque curtain? So, why was the book originally invisible? Dude, this is like breaking down a time travel movie
Contents of an object are part of it, just like clothing on a person or things they are carrying
@@BanditsKeep I see the logic now, thanks
Now I want to play an illusionist
My job is done then :)
@@BanditsKeep it's a class that didn't understand the purpose of for over a decade, and then this past spring as I watched your videos and read the OSE advanced classes and OSE spells, I came to understand how much more powerful the bx/OSE illusionist(and other spell casters) are compared to their 5e competitors. Yeah, 5e gets more spells, but that dilutes the feeling of awe you get when you can a spell in OSE/BX.
Brilliant.
Thank You!
An illusion might not DIRECTLY do harm to an enemy, but if it makes them pass out in a dangerous place (e.g. on a tightrope or ladder or rope bridge or bridge without railings), then they might fall to their deaths.
For sure!
One great thing about the Phantasmal Force spell is that it is like having a dozen or more spells in one.
Need a wall spell? No problem.
Need a lightning spell? No sweat.
A fire creature you say? I've got just the creature to send at it. A water elemental. Or maybe an ice storm would be better?
Need some extra troops? How about an illusion of skeletons coming out of the ground.
The possibilities are endless. And they get even better with experience as you yourself see magic effects and monsters that you can reproduce with your illusions.
Yes!
Illusion spells are the best ;) Hate to see how newer versions of D&D complete missed the boat on them and 'nerfed' them etc. Basically locking down creativity in favor of game balance. Trust betwen PC & GM is a better approach and could have been stated specifically concerning that school of spells . Great conversation!
Right, trust can be hard to adjudicate with rules - which seems to be what often happens in these cases
Except that illusion spells like Major Image and Minor Illusion are still very open-ended in how you can use them in fifth edition. The need for the DM to not be a problem hasn't changed with illusions.
Mirror image laste 1 min not 1 hour is this 5e?
Are you asking how long it lasts in 5e? I’m not sure - in Original D&D (Greyhawk) and BX D&D - which is what I’m talking about here (OSR) - it lasts 6 turns… 1 turn=10 minutes, so one hour total.
You absolutely can lift your Invisibility spell from the object. Just attack it! Should work good with that ring, you mentioned, and not so good with that valuable vase, party snitched from palace :)
Kinda funny if party would use it for quest.
-Did you retrieve my family insignia from this awful dungeon, and protected it from those vicious thiefs of the guild?
-Sure!
-Where it is?!
-Hold оn a second! *smacking the air*
😂
Some of the best illusions are the subtle ones. Instead of an Illusion of a dragon, you make an Illusion of yourself as an orc captain. Now you can walk right on in plain sight, the orcs are not going to spontanously attack their captain. If you speak orc you might as well question a sentry or issue a day order to some. I think this was split into Disguise later on, a spell specifically to look like another generic humanoid.
If you make an illusion of a flumph spaceship landing with a platoon of flumph parading out, chances are someone out there will toss magic on it just because it's such an outrageous thing. But they're not going to toss magic on a forest they pass through, unless it does something weird.
Back in the day (2nd edition) we had a gnome illusionist/psionicist. If you didnt believe his illusions, he'd mind control you and make you believe it. He could also do a bit of psychic healing, and exert some telekinetic force, both of which he'd use to put real effects into his illusions. By the later stages of the campaign we the party believed he was a gnomish god slumming with us.
Nice!
Oh EZd6, White Hack, and Lavender Hack use different magic systems from most other OSR Games.
I picked up Lavender (already had white) - seems interesting but almost 200 pages for a set of rules turns me off unfortunately no matter how good they might be. I see everyone talking about EZd6, but I have not looked at it..
BX RAW invisibility is very, very powerful. As per X34 you surprise on a 1-5 (unless the DM wants to rule that the stalker is somehow different-- but it isn't intangible or silent, so how can it be any more invisible?) You can't be "noticed," so as per B10 if you're a thief you get backstab. As per B17 you are still an infrared source, but as per B21 infravision won't help unless you're invisible in total darkness. While it's true that you aren't also silent, that doesn't matter because even if the victim somehow becomes aware of your presence, BX has no blindfighting mechanic, no roll for disbelief, and no automatic chance for detection like the one in AD&D 1e (i.e. 1ePH 70). In fact you could just as easily argue that as per B15 victims aren't allowed to attack an invisible creature at all. Invisibility specifically ends when the target casts spells or attacks, so you can use many non-scroll magical items, make noise, splash the ground with oil, turn undead, kiss the victim, or even take damage and the spell simply continues.
It’s nice to be invisible
Mind blown! I have always avoided playing Illusionists, because, even after having pre-game discussions, I am never confident my imaginative ideas will stand with my Judges. Find new Judges? I don’t want to play 5e.
It can be very rewarding once you get into the illusion business 😊 - there are plenty of good illusion spells in 5e, they just tend to be overly specific for my taste
Darkness/Light can have the same function as well. At least Darkness, so far as it messes with their perception of the target. Darkness specifically targets all infravision as well, so monsters that are normally able to perceive things in the dark suddenly have an orb of nothing in front of them.
I usually roll a morale check to see how monsters unused to this reacts. Most people are not willing to charge into a dark room blindly, and neither are most monsters. If the PCs couple this with surprises like glass shards, marbles etc they can leave them a nasty surprise in there. It makes the monsters and others stall just enough that you can leg it around a corner yourselves.
Indeed!
I've always wanted to give an AD&D illusionist a shot. Magic but you still have to be clever about it
For sure
What's OSR?
Its a short hand for the trend of playing (and republishing/reimagining) older versions of Role-Playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons
Just think about an Illusionist with a secondary skill of "Sound/Voice Imitations".
What a ventriloquist they would make! That baby in the woods distracting the kobolds. The growl of dogs heading towards them with the sound of rustling leaves.
Indeed!
In OD&D there's no skills, you just tell the DM you want to be a guy who has practiced voice imitations. Or you learn it during the campaign. One of my wizards spent months learning how to passably play the trumpet and then just kept on.
Guard- “ok go ahead. …one of you smells like a horse.”
🐴
An enormous grove of trees that the king tends to go hunting in
A truly wild and impassible wood
But is in fact a mass of skeleton reserve troops disguised in plain sight
Indeed!
Lol massmorph is that Macbeth?
Yes!
Illusion magic. Of course.
Indeed
Baby dragon: "Won't you Pleeeeeeeeease be my friend?"
Dwarf: "Yeah, sure, when monkeys fly out of my ...."
Elf: *phantasmal force*
Baby dragon: "They are! They are!"
Dwarf ( to Elf) "I hate you."
😂
In 5e, invisibility is so easily accessible and readily available that you kinda have to be tough on it. Otherwise, my Gloom stalker ranger is just invincible for the entire duration of a dark dungeon run. 5e kinda ruined invisibility with making it so easy to get and have all the time.
That’s a good point, if something is very common it can’t be too powerful
All this smoke and mirrors just makes me think of Detect Invisibility, the spell to quickly test if something outrageous is really there.
How much could OD&D Detect Invisibility detect? I usually rule that Detect Magic is not going to detect invisible stuff or things hidden behind an illusion. But that Detect Illusion lets you draw back the veil on a lot of illusionist stuff.
It's still a spell slot so you can't toss Detect Inv willy-nilly on everything. Most wizards save it for when something blatantly outrageous comes along. If you run a subtle illusion, they won't even think of testing it. The basic guards aren't going to have it, and the wizard who does can't be everywhere.
But once in a while you will get unlucky, and a bloke with Detect Inv or a magic item with a similar effect is going to make her inspection round as you sneak about. A dungeon floor were a single encounter has Detect Inv and moves through the area might be a fun challenge once.
i turn the trees
Do it!
Dude, if your dwarf is in a heavy armor and you want to make him silent you either change the spell for anyone before the session or find a way to make him silent (like doff the armor).
You have to premiate your player being clever, if they don't find a solution is on them; The game shouldn't adapt to players, the players have to adapt to the game!
Umm ok 🤷🏻♂️
@@BanditsKeep you think the game should be adapted to the players instead?
I believe it doesn't work well simply by the nature of games, but I would really like to know your point of view
@@Stone_Orchids I have no idea what your argument is TBH a dwarf can’t be quite in plate? The game I play says nothing if the sort.
@@BanditsKeep my idea is that the game is based on things we understand in real life, some armor make noise and if you are too close you can hear it, it can be a hinderance or it can be used in a creative way, it all depends on players, in most culture the sound of chains is connected to ghost so most creature will notice the sound but for sure freak out or have some other reaction that can be equally useful.
If you stay as faithful to reality, even if sometimes feel detrimental often requiring problem solving or requiring sacrifices, you open up possibilities to more interesting (and immersive) play, but again even with this mentality if you want everybody on being silent you can doff the armor or use some other shenanigan to make it silent (some rope and wool might be enough)
@@Stone_OrchidsI hope you make all that clear before the dwarf tries to sneak. Players need to understand the rules to make good choices. Also “silent” is not the same as sneaking or surprise IMO
Why why whhyyy .. did gygax or whoever call them medusa. They are GORGONS one of whom was NAMED medusa.
This is a question I’m afraid I can’t answer.
I once had a villian npc wizard cast illusion on his house cats to look like lions. The party who was breaking into his manor to steal his newest invention, killed two of the "lions" in one shot. They were horrified to discover they were cats. The wizard didn't even fight them as he was besought himself with grief over the loss of his cats. The party was unwelcome in the next town as the people who killed an old mans cats while robbing him. 🤣 And that, is how you properly screw with your players 😁
Yikes! Did the cats at least get a good attack in?
@BanditsKeep nope. 😅 They, like house cats, were lounging and watching. The group thought they had the drop on them. That was how our group ran. They were so powerful, and for that campaign, I didn't want to throw anything actually lethal at them. So I got creative. I once had them fight what they thought was a hag holding a village of goblins as hostages to do her bidding. What they didn't expect was that it was actually an old lady with an evil enchanted sentient frying pan who made an "armor" of baby papooses that held all the goblins babies. Can't hit her if you don't want to hurt something important, and at the same time the goblins didn't want her to eat their kids or you hurt the kids while attempting to stop her. 😁
They did eventually sneak up on her during combat and knocked her out, saved the babies, brokered peace between the misunderstood goblins and the irate farmers they were forced to attack, and eventually changed the alignment of the frying pan and turned it into a living flintlock pistol who became the teams mascot and moral compass for good.
Projected Image, as stolen by a Star Wars movie. :-)
Indeed!
The best way to think of Projected Image is the scen between Luke Skywalker and Crylo Ren. He's dodging and talking smack to distract his enemy before revealing the illusion and disappearing. Gods, I just threw up in my mouth referencing that shitstorm of a movie.
Indeed
Every edition they nerfed illusion.
Indeed
The pedantry that goes into ruining magic and fantasy really pisses me off l, even though I'm guilty of it too. Invisibility, taken scientifically, is totally implausible. But FFS, let's assume magic spells work the way we want them to, not how if they were for realz. Invisibility, being an illusion, erases the invisible party from the perception of the intended victim. It does not actually block out smell, sight, sounds etc. Instead it clouds the minds of the victims so they ignore their senses. That's how I imagine it working.
Makes sense to me
Invisibility broken by a violin
Indeed
This is one of the things 5e sort of killed off. I hate how they made pretty much every class a magic user
Indeed