In a situation like this I would sit down with Janeway and the Doctor and explain "Those lives that were sacrificed in the past, the harm and damage, all of it is deplorable and evil. But we can't save those lives, no matter how much we may want to. But we can save a life now." And that's when I would look over at Belana.
Oh, that's such a good episode! That's one thing I loved about Voyager. It always challenged the morals and ethics of the characters. Star Trek has always been so good at that, and VOY really exemplified it.
Just finished my rewatch of this episode. I've always felt that using the research was the right thing to do. I really disagreed with The Doctor deleting it all at the end. A lot of medical research on Earth used to be obtained through unethical means. For example doctors used to have to pay grave robbers order to have cadavers to train and research on. The biggest thing though is that, no matter what is done with this knowledge, nothing can UNDO what has Moset did. Deleting the hologram and all of the research, it won't bring back the Bajorans he hurt, and it won't right those wrongs. But if it can be put to use to help people, to save lives, at least something good can come from that suffering. Attone for it in some small way. Letting someone die by refusing to use it, sure isn't going to undo the horrors he committed. Although, maybe make a different hologram without the personality subroutines or image of mosset, or not use a hologram. I can't imagine that one of his victims would find peace knowing that someone else was allowed to suffer or die. But maybe they would find peace knowing that someone else had a chance at life. I'm sure if they could speak they wouldn't say "Yes, letting more people suffer or die instead is the best way to honor our memory"
One of my favorite Trek episodes across all the series, but I hated the ending to it. I don't agree with Krell and his practices, but he does bring up a lot of moral issues that the doctor brushes off likes its fine for humans to do but not other species. A lot of our medical research was acquired by experimenting on still living animals ; dogs, rodents and even primates. But the Doctor says its fine because they weren't people. And later before Krell and the research are deleted, Krell stated " where was your ethics when your patient was dying?". The episode spent so much time stating how bad the Cardasians were, but by the end Voyager was no better than them if they can use this "barbaric" research then discard it when they don't need it.
Yes and I think that’s the tension. Would it have been more ethical to let Torres die knowing they have access to treatment now? The harm has been done in the past, so would ignoring the treatment be “doing no harm”? The answer isn’t clear and that ambiguity is great Star Trek for it gifts us these opportunities to think, debate, discuss.
@@CompletingTheShelf the magic of good story telling. And I do agree with about letting a patient die when they have the means to treat them. I'd probably vote to save the life too. But ot does bring up other issues too. People have refused a medical procedure because it goes against their personal beliefs( like a religion), who are we to force a medical procedure on them ? The circumstances are a bit different than what the delema was in this episode , but not too far off
I have been a trainer and developer of ethics training programs. Ethics is about making the best decision when the best decision is not clear. In this case, I would argue that one needs to make a distinction between knowledge that has already been gained and the means whereby it was acquired. In a sense, knowledge is like money: It is a blended resource and it is impossible to sort that which is ill-gotten from that which was derived through proper methods. Tuvok, in this episode, argues that it is logical to not use the Cardassian doctor's knowledge because he came about it through through monstrous experiments. I disagree. Rather, I would say that although one is completely right to condemn the actions that brought about such knowledge, it would be illogical and unethical to not use such knowledge when it could save lives. In fact, using that knowledge for the purpose of saving lives is the single-most ethical thing a person could do, as it at least honors those sacrificed for it and ensures their suffering was not in vain.
I always found the Voyager crew and federation as a whole in this case to be rather self-righteous. Any knowledge is by definition neutral.... it's about how you use it that matters and how you yourself got a hold of it. So yes, actively doing what the Cardassian did was horrid.... but using that knowledge for good is not wrong.... and I can compare it to using chemo therapy to deal with cancers, to this episode... it's not like we are going 'nazi reseach bad!' in our world.... we use it to save people. take something gained through horrid means, and make use of it for the betterment of everyone as a whole. And the doctor is wrong... human medical sciences are strongly affected by the use of living, sentient people as test subjects, as with the above example of how we deal with cancers today.
@@CompletingTheShelf The episode just felt a bit 'on the nose' with the theme imo. it could have been done better... like maybe that Cardassian was more sympathetic... as in was forced into the work and did his best to minimize the suffering since if he didn't do the job, someone else, with less of a moral nature might easily take his place. Like with the DS9 episode 'Duet'. The whole back and forth of Kira and the Cardassian... It was really powerful, especially at the reveal of that twist.
I am surprised that they stopped at saying that a lot of medical knowledge was obtained from research on animals. Quite a bit of medical knowledge has been accumulated through experimentation on unwilling humans. This episode specifically reminds me of Josef Mengele's experiments in WWII. I understand the need for drama, but this story plot was pretty silly....
In a situation like this I would sit down with Janeway and the Doctor and explain "Those lives that were sacrificed in the past, the harm and damage, all of it is deplorable and evil. But we can't save those lives, no matter how much we may want to. But we can save a life now." And that's when I would look over at Belana.
Until the next time?
Oh, that's such a good episode!
That's one thing I loved about Voyager. It always challenged the morals and ethics of the characters.
Star Trek has always been so good at that, and VOY really exemplified it.
Yes! That's why Voyager needs more respect in the fan community. And that's why I do Why Voyager! Thanks for watching, Chris!
Just finished my rewatch of this episode. I've always felt that using the research was the right thing to do. I really disagreed with The Doctor deleting it all at the end. A lot of medical research on Earth used to be obtained through unethical means. For example doctors used to have to pay grave robbers order to have cadavers to train and research on. The biggest thing though is that, no matter what is done with this knowledge, nothing can UNDO what has Moset did. Deleting the hologram and all of the research, it won't bring back the Bajorans he hurt, and it won't right those wrongs. But if it can be put to use to help people, to save lives, at least something good can come from that suffering. Attone for it in some small way. Letting someone die by refusing to use it, sure isn't going to undo the horrors he committed. Although, maybe make a different hologram without the personality subroutines or image of mosset, or not use a hologram.
I can't imagine that one of his victims would find peace knowing that someone else was allowed to suffer or die. But maybe they would find peace knowing that someone else had a chance at life. I'm sure if they could speak they wouldn't say "Yes, letting more people suffer or die instead is the best way to honor our memory"
And that’s the beauty of the episode. There’s strong moral arguments on both sides.
Where do we draw the line?
Dr Crell Moset is an amazing doctor!
Who played him? What actor?
He seems kind of familiar.
One of my favorite Trek episodes across all the series, but I hated the ending to it. I don't agree with Krell and his practices, but he does bring up a lot of moral issues that the doctor brushes off likes its fine for humans to do but not other species. A lot of our medical research was acquired by experimenting on still living animals ; dogs, rodents and even primates. But the Doctor says its fine because they weren't people. And later before Krell and the research are deleted, Krell stated " where was your ethics when your patient was dying?". The episode spent so much time stating how bad the Cardasians were, but by the end Voyager was no better than them if they can use this "barbaric" research then discard it when they don't need it.
Yes and I think that’s the tension. Would it have been more ethical to let Torres die knowing they have access to treatment now? The harm has been done in the past, so would ignoring the treatment be “doing no harm”? The answer isn’t clear and that ambiguity is great Star Trek for it gifts us these opportunities to think, debate, discuss.
@@CompletingTheShelf the magic of good story telling. And I do agree with about letting a patient die when they have the means to treat them. I'd probably vote to save the life too. But ot does bring up other issues too. People have refused a medical procedure because it goes against their personal beliefs( like a religion), who are we to force a medical procedure on them ? The circumstances are a bit different than what the delema was in this episode , but not too far off
I have been a trainer and developer of ethics training programs. Ethics is about making the best decision when the best decision is not clear. In this case, I would argue that one needs to make a distinction between knowledge that has already been gained and the means whereby it was acquired. In a sense, knowledge is like money: It is a blended resource and it is impossible to sort that which is ill-gotten from that which was derived through proper methods. Tuvok, in this episode, argues that it is logical to not use the Cardassian doctor's knowledge because he came about it through through monstrous experiments. I disagree. Rather, I would say that although one is completely right to condemn the actions that brought about such knowledge, it would be illogical and unethical to not use such knowledge when it could save lives. In fact, using that knowledge for the purpose of saving lives is the single-most ethical thing a person could do, as it at least honors those sacrificed for it and ensures their suffering was not in vain.
I agree.
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I always found the Voyager crew and federation as a whole in this case to be rather self-righteous. Any knowledge is by definition neutral.... it's about how you use it that matters and how you yourself got a hold of it. So yes, actively doing what the Cardassian did was horrid.... but using that knowledge for good is not wrong.... and I can compare it to using chemo therapy to deal with cancers, to this episode... it's not like we are going 'nazi reseach bad!' in our world.... we use it to save people. take something gained through horrid means, and make use of it for the betterment of everyone as a whole.
And the doctor is wrong... human medical sciences are strongly affected by the use of living, sentient people as test subjects, as with the above example of how we deal with cancers today.
I agree with you!
@@CompletingTheShelf The episode just felt a bit 'on the nose' with the theme imo. it could have been done better... like maybe that Cardassian was more sympathetic... as in was forced into the work and did his best to minimize the suffering since if he didn't do the job, someone else, with less of a moral nature might easily take his place.
Like with the DS9 episode 'Duet'. The whole back and forth of Kira and the Cardassian... It was really powerful, especially at the reveal of that twist.
I am surprised that they stopped at saying that a lot of medical knowledge was obtained from research on animals. Quite a bit of medical knowledge has been accumulated through experimentation on unwilling humans. This episode specifically reminds me of Josef Mengele's experiments in WWII.
I understand the need for drama, but this story plot was pretty silly....