Good one Mike 👍🏻 The other attribute to note for those considering their options is the need to support an inverted-V at the centre, whereas with a dipole, you have the options of centre support or end supports only.
Mike, the way that you explained the differences in SWR based on the coax run to the radio struck home on how each deployment can affect your antenna. And another point you hammered home for me was how flattop vs inverted-VEE impacts the radiation pattern. For my QTH deployment, a flattop would work best to keep the wires out of the way for people enjoying the backyard and pool but this would not be as beneficial for being on the air. Thanks for setting me straight with these two important considerations!!
Given a choice, I'd go for a non-inverted-V, because the increased directivity increases the ERP (effective radiated power) in the opposing broadside directions of your choosing (provided you can orient it the way you want). And/or, you could rotate it to null noise in the beam pattern notches. Sadly, with a small garden, it's difficult to have the freedom to orient it the way I want. :( Good videos, Mike.
Mike, just today I was playing with a 10.68-meter pole and guying it and realized the guys were about 35 feet long also and I realized a dipole could be fitted at the guys or at the top, and a fan dipole configured along with the guy ropes. I was trying to configure a DX Commander kind of vertical but first the pole being more permanent needs the guy position figured out. Your dipole showed resistance changes but surprised me with my thinking a dipole especially under a 1/4 wave high would be a higher resistance and an inverted V closer to 50 ohms, but yours was different. I have been told high loss coax could lower SWR readings, but the resistance change surprised me. I am thinking of using some 75-ohm hardline low loss coax, but if the resistance of the antenna will be lower, that could be a problem. Thanks for the video, as always it is thought provoking and informative?
Thank you for this video Mike! As a new ham, I’ve never heard the rf radiation pattern of a flat top vs inverted V explained that way. Makes perfect sense now. I have my dipole as a flat top. I think I’ll give it a try as an inverted V. 73!
Brilliant series of videos. Really demonstrated how little effort is needed to make an effective antenna. I bet ML&S would sell it for £50 if you put the T in a nice 3d printed box.
I have found flat (horizontal) superior in almost every aspect in the 10-11 meter band, especially where noise is concerned. No Balun just a six coil choke at the receiver end. Mind I can't transmit yet until I get my licence. Good job I'm patient .
Nice video Mike. I am a fan of inverted V's. I'm running a 30m one right now and am going to turn it into a Fan Inverted V dipole covering 30m, 20m, 17m and 15m. 73 Joe
nice experiment, i did like the way you conducted your tests. The only thing I would say is that in your draw the dipole is oriented 90 degrees from how you draw it. The “nulls” as you said also are found at the tips. Is also worth mentioning the capability of the mfj to show return loss and coefficient of reflection if you enter the advanced 1 mode pushing the two white buttons together. 73s and congrats on your videos!
I need to build my first HF dipole soon. Interesting how the radiation pattern changes, so I guess a consideration is how the elements are orientated and which direction you want dx?
Great video thanks for the informative 2 part video, jusr courious did you go for a 1/4 wave over a 1/2 wave or a full wave for any particular reason, 99% of the other videos tjatvI have previously watched talk about or build using a 1/2 wave. Rgs Wayne.
Hello Mike, thank you for the nice explanation👍🏻. Now I know why I prefer my inverted V instead of my dipole. And sometimes I think: yes I do 50 watt output but what exactly goes out of my antenna🤔🤔 thank you, Ron, pd3ron
Hi Mike I have made an inverted v and it’s amazing the results I’m getting on 10w. What does the RF look like, along with impedance etc. If we turn the dipole vertical ?
How do you think a balun might improve thinks Mike ? A balun on a dipole confuses me, I know some use them and some connect the feeder direct. Is the point to prevent the feeder radiating ? In your case I presume the unbalanced feeder could have different currents in the screen and centre thus not cancelling and then returning to your transmitter / analyser ? I am in the process of building a 20m dipole, my plan was to have a line isolator near the rig, just a few turns of rg58 on a former and then a 1:1 balun at the dipole joint. Time will tell. Next I'd like to try a multi band end fed antenna via a 49:1 unun. If you connect your analyser direct to an end fed antenna without any matching what would it read ? I presume 2 / 3k ?
I tend to overthink things. I was certain you'd need a balun at the apex of the antenna, and probably a common-mode choke at the bottom. But you have neither. For me it has been a real battle to sort out truth from error.
Good one Mike 👍🏻 The other attribute to note for those considering their options is the need to support an inverted-V at the centre, whereas with a dipole, you have the options of centre support or end supports only.
True
Hmm what would happen if I end support & it drops slightly in the middle with weight of coax I wonder...
@@mully89 No problem with that setup.
Mike, the way that you explained the differences in SWR based on the coax run to the radio struck home on how each deployment can affect your antenna.
And another point you hammered home for me was how flattop vs inverted-VEE impacts the radiation pattern. For my QTH deployment, a flattop would work best to keep the wires out of the way for people enjoying the backyard and pool but this would not be as beneficial for being on the air.
Thanks for setting me straight with these two important considerations!!
Given a choice, I'd go for a non-inverted-V, because the increased directivity increases the ERP (effective radiated power) in the opposing broadside directions of your choosing (provided you can orient it the way you want). And/or, you could rotate it to null noise in the beam pattern notches. Sadly, with a small garden, it's difficult to have the freedom to orient it the way I want. :( Good videos, Mike.
Mike, just today I was playing with a 10.68-meter pole and guying it and realized the guys were about 35 feet long also and I realized a dipole could be fitted at the guys or at the top, and a fan dipole configured along with the guy ropes. I was trying to configure a DX Commander kind of vertical but first the pole being more permanent needs the guy position figured out.
Your dipole showed resistance changes but surprised me with my thinking a dipole especially under a 1/4 wave high would be a higher resistance and an inverted V closer to 50 ohms, but yours was different. I have been told high loss coax could lower SWR readings, but the resistance change surprised me. I am thinking of using some 75-ohm hardline low loss coax, but if the resistance of the antenna will be lower, that could be a problem. Thanks for the video, as always it is thought provoking and informative?
Many thanks for the post, 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
A great project, along with a good synopsis of the differences between flat and inverted. Thanks Mike.
Thanks 👍
Thank you for this video Mike! As a new ham, I’ve never heard the rf radiation pattern of a flat top vs inverted V explained that way. Makes perfect sense now. I have my dipole as a flat top. I think I’ll give it a try as an inverted V. 73!
Thanks 👍
Brilliant series of videos. Really demonstrated how little effort is needed to make an effective antenna.
I bet ML&S would sell it for £50 if you put the T in a nice 3d printed box.
I have found flat (horizontal) superior in almost every aspect in the 10-11 meter band, especially where noise is concerned. No Balun just a six coil choke at the receiver end. Mind I can't transmit yet until I get my licence. Good job I'm patient .
Excellent video... Mike...lets see more of this type of video please.... 73's
will try.. :)
Liked the explanation of return loss and VSWR, very helpful.
Glad to hear!
Really enjoy these videos. Very helpful to all of us....thank you and 73
Glad you like them!
As always, very nice video. Thanks
So nice of you
i use 20 mtrs rg213. with hustler 5btv ground mounted. works a treat mike enjoying vids m3hnl warminster merry christmas to you and yours
Many thanks Merry Christmas to you too
Nice video Mike. I am a fan of inverted V's. I'm running a 30m one right now and am going to turn it into a Fan Inverted V dipole covering 30m, 20m, 17m and 15m. 73 Joe
Thanks 👍
Oooh, some relaxing Saturday viewing.
lol
nice experiment, i did like the way you conducted your tests. The only thing I would say is that in your draw the dipole is oriented 90 degrees from how you draw it. The “nulls” as you said also are found at the tips. Is also worth mentioning the capability of the mfj to show return loss and coefficient of reflection if you enter the advanced 1 mode pushing the two white buttons together.
73s and congrats on your videos!
Yes, you are right, many thanks may show the capability of the MFJ in a video soon..
M0MSN de VU2SFJ, Tons of wisdom in this video of your....definatly a "thumbs up" from me.
PS I also shared this video on our club's WA group....
Thanks 👍
Thank you for these videos!
Superb video Mike. Well explained and presented.. pleasure to watch. 73
Many thanks Tim 👍🏻
You get what you pay for at the end of the day great video.
You got that right!
A nice 'training' vid Mike, thanks & 73, Keith
many thanks
Yes fully agree for the lower band's 40mtrs and 80mtrs an inverted V is an excellent antenna. Also so simple to make and erect only requiring 1 mast.
Well said!
Excellent video Mike.
Many thanks Bob
Thanks Mike, thought provoking.👍🇬🇧❤️
Very welcome
thanks for proving my point that i have try to get hams to understand for years mike @mike-m0msn
I need to build my first HF dipole soon. Interesting how the radiation pattern changes, so I guess a consideration is how the elements are orientated and which direction you want dx?
you got it. :)
Great video thanks for the informative 2 part video, jusr courious did you go for a 1/4 wave over a 1/2 wave or a full wave for any particular reason, 99% of the other videos tjatvI have previously watched talk about or build using a 1/2 wave.
Rgs
Wayne.
Hi Wayne, it is a half wave, I referred to one leg being a 1/4 wave, as that is what it is. Sorry if was unclear. 😀
Hello Mike, thank you for the nice explanation👍🏻. Now I know why I prefer my inverted V instead of my dipole. And sometimes I think: yes I do 50 watt output but what exactly goes out of my antenna🤔🤔
thank you,
Ron, pd3ron
Thanks 👍
Hi Mike I have made an inverted v and it’s amazing the results I’m getting on 10w. What does the RF look like, along with impedance etc. If we turn the dipole vertical ?
It's good, go for it.
Well i experienced the same, and once i changed the cable from rg-58 to diamond 5DQ-II swr went down from 1.44 to 1.06
Nice bit of work that Mike.
Thanks 👍
How do you think a balun might improve thinks Mike ? A balun on a dipole confuses me, I know some use them and some connect the feeder direct. Is the point to prevent the feeder radiating ? In your case I presume the unbalanced feeder could have different currents in the screen and centre thus not cancelling and then returning to your transmitter / analyser ? I am in the process of building a 20m dipole, my plan was to have a line isolator near the rig, just a few turns of rg58 on a former and then a 1:1 balun at the dipole joint. Time will tell. Next I'd like to try a multi band end fed antenna via a 49:1 unun. If you connect your analyser direct to an end fed antenna without any matching what would it read ? I presume 2 / 3k ?
Yep. There is a lot more to this than space here permits. keep reading 30 years on and I am still learning..
Very interesting thank you.
Nicely done Mike..... 👍
Thanks Roly..👍
Nice project/experiment Mike 👍👏👏
Thank you! Cheers!
I tend to overthink things. I was certain you'd need a balun at the apex of the antenna, and probably a common-mode choke at the bottom. But you have neither. For me it has been a real battle to sort out truth from error.
And the actual V design! Given your info how would that radiate?
I would have to model that and let you know...
Nicely done!
Thanks!
Thanks for this information Mike, I will try it out on my 40 mtr dipole, will need to get a SWR meter to fine tune it. VK3HJW
Have fun!
Its probably a daft question Mike and I apologise if it is but does it matter what gauge wire is used for the elements? Thanks, Stu G7WAY
not sure of gauge it is 1.5mm wire.
@@mike-M0MSN Thank You
How hi can the x= Go before you have to do something to get it down again ?
👍👍
Hi Mike, good video, looking at building/buying a dipole for 20m use for some DX :) . Hope you are well, 73s G8YYH
Build it yourself, it will work. :)
Great demonstration.
Thanks John
👍👍