Havent seen anyone yet explaining it this way yet and after hearing this I totally agree. I'm not a jungler by any means but getting lvl 2 ganked on bot every game is so insanely annoying. While our jungler "punishes" their jungler for doing that, he gets no advantage at all. I see junglers being many kills and cs ahead and being on the same lvl or maybe 1 lvl up.
Im always more cs than enemy junglers but since they just tax their team and tske XP and jungle camps giving NO XP they are same level they need to BUFF do gain from camps atleast late game
While i agree jgl might be too strong - sylas should just have ganked instead of invading no? Its common knowledge invading has been nerfed dor some reason
Take note: Sylas is weak at clearing jungle camps early game, and also no sustain. if any other jungle champs like Lee sin, graves, Maokai, Wukong, etc they can kill camps pretty easily with more health to spare...
I completely agree with Tyler on this one. Riot just keeps dropping the ball on Jungle as a role and it shows. Not that I know how to fix it, but I feel like they could do plenty better.
I agree with him with counter jungling but heres the problem after so many patches we would be where we started in like early S11, where smite is now not a 50/50 so take that for what you will. The role itself is too impactful in all ranks by the very nature of the role and buffs drags give and the importance of ganking. So in reality lets say we revert the changes for counter jungling. Nothing would change and we'd be back to s11 jungling before the initial changes.
Simple solution to start with: Revert the jg changes of the season involving counter jg and the nerfed exp and gold other roles get for killing camps. Then nerf the exp on lane and make camps more essential to their growth. Then make any further adjustments from there.
Riot's goal is not to make the game better but to baby the players so they play. Jungle's counter jungle was removed as explained. They removed jungle's pathing knowledge by adding the "guides" in game on where you will path next for "most effective pathing" so players won't need to study youtube guides. They weakened the jungle so players will be less punished for not kiting properly (players don't want to study how to kite properly) and the result is the current jungle. Riot cares too much about what their players cannot do and keep fixing it which means players would be lax on practice. Instead of players upping their games by watching tutorials, Riot lowered their bar to those player's performance. It's like instead of studying to learn multiplication, Riot be like, "Let's just remove multiplication in the curriculum so players won't have a harder time."
@@lovisericachii4503 ah I hate it. It’s so clear to see as well in the statistics. Champions like jarvan nunu dominating solo queue just because those are the champs who are good at perma ganking
Elise is oppressive but its no where near as bad as Maokia, Xin, Vi, Zac, J4 and even Nunu is way better than he should be rn. Purely because the jungle is so tanky so the fact these junglers are also tanks just instantly makes them better at living through the jungles/enemy’s bullshit first few clears. They literally don’t have to farm so the fact they can just walk away all game and get catchup XP because the enemy can never threaten an invade is fucking retarded
The man hit Challenger on every single role, Tyler1 has a unique amount of game knowledge and can give a point of view for any role or just overall because of how well rounded his experience is as a player in recent years. Dude genuinely knows better than the devs majority of the time.
Most of the time? He knows more about those useless devs all of the time. As Tyler has said many times himself, everyone working at Riot are bronze. The only one we know of who is high elo is Auberaun, who I believe is Grandmaster.
Nothing else to be said, I agree. Effectively removing counter-jungling on top of making Jungling so goddamn easy and basic destroyed all skill expression in the jungle.
There is more to be said: Namly that Sylas sucks at clearing camps. Pretty much any other meta jungler would have been able to clear the whole quadrant, end up with more health than this sylas and be level 4.
@@Cubacma08 yeah idk why people are praising what he showed us Sylas is the most useless jungler early game and people are STILL doing it for no reason there's alot of option in AP to choose from and it would be better example in this clip as well. If the sylas is actually someone else like ekko elise they will clear all 3 camps like ease with 1 smite
I mean he said this days before Phlox released a message that they would be reverting some of the jungle changes. No more 20% reduction on enemy camps, more gold in the jg. Counterjungling should be back I think.
@@mustangcody by doing this they nerf the impact a jungler can have, seeing how you now get punished for sitting in that tribush for a minute, because youd lose your top camps
@No tengo Nombre why they're buffing it is because junglers have no incentive to actually farm the jungle, they could be annoying pieces of shit and perma camp bott, while just rotating their 3 bottside camps in between ganks, while your jg can perma clear on cooldown and both would be the same xp with not much of a difference in gold, even worse if the pemaganker got a kill or 2, your jungle is now effectively behind, they're basically incentivising junglers actually doing the jungle, instead of being gank bots
a few weeks ago i was playing lillia vs a nunu. i remember he camped botlane for so long that i was able to take his whole topside jg twice and he still had a level lead before the 15 min mark. i miss lillia counterjungling, the map felt so much more free and flexible
Imagine farming, using oracle to control vision, knowing when to gank or not, how to smite properly and contest objectives, imagine knowing how to do all of that, only to lose to the enemy jungler that farms kills in your botlane and gets fed within the first 10 minutes of the game, just spamganking the lane and pressing Q. That's what playing as a jungler nowadays feels.
the game is balanced around low elo trashes unfortunately . Riot keeps removing skill from the game year after year . Its becoming truly sad seeing the game is such a garbage state
Main jungle here. he is totally right. I always counter jungled before when jungler did a shit gank. But now when there is no punishment for it they always stay around the same level so there is zero Advantage to your team. It forces you to play cheesy tactics instead of strategic one. I really loved League before esp jungler. But I am bored out of my mind now. I play Champs that clear fast and can gank all lanes. And my team wins early, its over. The game is so Busted atm.
It actually puts yourself behind, because if you let his camps at level 1 he get shit exp, but if you counterjungle they respawn at higher lvl and give much more exp, so you boosted his camps by taking them. He would have missed the window to farm them anyway cause he can just gank and have much more impact in the game and come back to a full jgl to farm. In doing so you also take a lot more time and lose agency on the map because of your probably low hp.
His twitch personality aside he is 100% right and he is very smart at the game not all games are like this but it is absurd how a jg impacts the game in absurd degree
he was acting fairly normal in this clip idk what "twitch personality" you're bitching about. just because someone you don't like makes a good point doesn't mean you have to make some weird concession before agreeing with them.
Not a jungle main, but enjoy playing jungle now and then. My favourite playstyle in the jg is aggressively counter jungling and stealing camps to put the enemy further behind. I've never felt worse playing the game than playing jungle this season, when I can see the enemy jungle item with 15+ camps while i've finished mine, and they are equal level or higher than I am, with similar number of items.
Totally agree. I also hate the power gank meta. There's no variety and theres no skill. Ontop of that I dont know when or why they made it so camps reset even if you dont kill the small monsters. Yet again a nerf to counter jungling. I hate it. I remember in the past I could get a massive 2 or 3 level lead simply by counter jungling only and bullying the enemy jungle. That's not possible anymore. You steal the enemy camps and they just gank and kill your laners and still snowball.
there is a ton of skill, actually. bot lane NEEDS to manage their wave for a level 3 gank. That turbogank is NOT guaranteed to work, at all. And if they play smart, it can actually lead to real punishment for a failed gank. This clip is misleading because Sylas literally has the worst first clear out of all junglers, to the point where some people actually consider him non-viable, and thats why he got his ass kicked by blue. I'd be perfectly fine with changes that make it so that turboganking bot is less meta, but its not as braindead of a move as people are making it out to be.
@@pinnacleexpress420 no no you don't understand. League is aiming to accommodate to the vast majority of players and almost completely ignoring outliers, which is iron & diamond+ respectively. In Silver (majority of players' rank) BOT LANE DOES NOT KNOW WAVE MANAGEMENT, and the is no playing smart that you're suggesting. Riot know how bad they messed up. They nerfed early kill xp and also now planning on reverting the durability of enemy camps which is the natural response to the jungle problem. It is also impossible to fall behind on xp too since the increase comeback xp so that new jg players dont get caved by the jg mains. ALSO jungle gold got nerfed in preseason so why even bother to farm. 1 quadrant is 1 kill if you go bot and get double kill you just spent 10 secons ganking to do 2 mins of fullclear work in terms of gold
lol gm top who learned jg last season: when I focused clearing everything, my winrate was 48-55. When I full cleared once and focused spam ganking bot lane and wasting time but getting drakes, my winrate shot up to 70-80
Very true. I came to this realization today when I realized that, even though I get such a "huge" lead pre lvl 5 by invading enemy jungler and stuff, it does not matter because he now has an excuse to gank with full hp while I either have to recall or lose in my own jungle when I try to clear rest of the camps.
@@mustangcody yes but that is simply a champ diff. I am sorry but sylas sucks early. And Tyler ranting about how xin should loose his early because a scaling champ has one more camp is ludicrous.
@@quasarlgq he complained about him sitting bot for minutes without being able to punish him because counter jungling is dead. That's the point he was trying to make ganking bot is always free since u can't be punished.
@@quasarlgq bruh no watch the vid regardless if sylas is weaker he can’t contest because he’s low hp just because he did an enemy camp. If he has done his camps he would be at higher hp and could contest. Sylas got punished for counter jungling watch the vid
@@tealover7058 yes because sylas sucks at farming early levels, has horrendous clear, no healing or any sustain. Xin has healing, speed buff, cc... And everything you may want in the jungle. And yes, doing a camp will always make you go lower in hp at early levels. Should it heal you? This is if you tank a clear one extra wave while tanking it and then complain you loose the 1v1 Vs the laner. The hp diff would not change much if he did his own camp. Fiddle would be almost full hp regardless. Not all champions are made for counter jungling
Counter jgling got nerfed a bit back where I think killing enemy champs is now harder so if u take enemy camps it takes longer and some how ur still at the same level as a guy who stood in a bush for 2 mins. xd no idea why they did this and camps that dont get fully cleared are reset anyways???!!?
@@epicswag100xd4 I don’t even care about the pet other than it being kind of silly, but the anti-counter jungling was such a braindead idea and I’m glad they’re reverting it soon
(Disclaimer: I went way more Indepth than i meant to) how about something like this: make it so that smite can only smite Baron, elder and normal/epic jungle monsters. But then make it so that, after 11:30 minutes, bot laners deal increased damage to dragons, while top laners deal normal damage, mid laners deal half of the increased damage, while junglers deal the negative value of the increase that the bot laners receive (For example, if bot laners deal 65% bonus damage, junglers would deal 65% less damage.) for the ENTIRE game, not just after 11:30 minutes. Hareld would receive a similar change where the top laner deals some increased damage to it, while the mid laner deals half of that increase, bot laners have no increase, and then the jungler deals the negative value of the increased damage for the top laner. Top laners would also have the same increase they do for hareld applied on Baron. Hareld would also give another buff relating to baron: Each harled killed will now increase all allies damage dealt to baron by 25% If you get both harleds, then, after you kill baron, all allies, if they are alone, will deal 25% of a towers max health (only procable once per tower.) Now, the person that is the "top laner" or "mid/bot laner" would be calculated by whoever is in their respective the lane most between the minutes of 1:45 and 11:30, of course with anyone that has smite being excluded. (FYI, this would be shown as a buff like blue buff right above where all your abilities are shown) Junglers should be the "early game ganking" role that has a bit of a dip in power towards the mid game but comes back in importance in the late game when baron and elder start to exist (You could even buff smite damage to 1600 against Baron and elder to really cement this in.) top laners also would then have the main power to massively increase the impact of that Baron, while mid laners are adaptable and can help out wherever they are needed. early game the jungler would need to identify the win condition for the team and the gank that lane. If their team is suited for a double hareld-buffed-baron win condition, then he ganks top. If their team is more team fight oriented and has a strong wombo combo, then he ganks bot aiming for soul and then eventually elder. Towards the mid game the jungler and the mid lane have essentially the exact same role. They both help out wherever they are needed. If bot lane is goign for dragon, the jungler and mid lane ward off enemies while the bot lane takes it. The same goes for hareld with the top laner. But then when late game comes around, the mid laner has much the same job as in the mid game, but the jungler spikes in importance because he now has a 1600 smite to secure whichever win condition they played for. But the main point is this: Give. Other. Lanes. Agency. Give win conditions that EVERYONE can contribute to in their own respective ways. is your whole team losing that dragon fight that your lane opponent tp'd to? No matter, you're the top laner post 11:30, and you saw that it was a losing fight, so you decided to get the harled by yourself within just 45 seconds (idk, i just threw out a random number. that could be super low.) They only Just now took the dragon and are probably recalling while you are trading the dragon for a full tower and tower plattings. Sure, they got the third dragon and are on their way to soul, but you are banking on a double-harled-buffed-baron end. If there was a fiht that broke out top lane, then the bot laners could got dragon in the same way, although with a bit less immediate "oomph" to it like harled does.
I completely agree with bringing back counter jungling. While the current iteration is less punishing it removes the factor that kept heavy gankers in check. Before, if you 3 camped you would take the optimal camps to avoid being counter jungled while losing some time. Now you can do a 3 camp quicker and that component of losing camps on the other side of the map is removed.
There's a reason 2/3 of the other biggest mobas have removed the very concept of dedicated junglers. Its an inherently unhealthy role that is nearly impossible to balance.
Jg main here for 2 years, I totally agree and approve what T1 states, I knew from the beginning that removing counter jungling would evolve to a similar scenario in the meta and when he stated that a lot of the current junglers are idiots who just cheese instead of using their brains and doing that one thing in mind absolutely made me feel bad about my current main role. Jungle is meant to be the 9-5 role that requires a lot of practice, guides and the most understanding of the game to optimize its potential. Although it didn't make the role much easier it just made it more toxic and one sided to do 1 thing and ONLY 1 thing especially in higher elos, lvl 2 gank even it requires hiding in the same Bush for a long time and giving vision to the enemy and still getting a kill anyway. I was one of the people that requested decreasing the exp junglers gain from minions since its not jungle camps that a give a lot of exp like a lot of non-junglers think, it the MINION exp and COME BACK exp which keeps junglers that don't full clear on the same level as the full clear junglers, that's how elise got her winrate and pick rate boosted over few patches eventhogh she only received a small adjustment to her cocoon range with no damage buffs and dominated the meta with other champions that have similar playstyle so I was really glad when they nerfed comeback exp to nerf the snowballing meta. As a someone who plays top too, me and my fellow toplaners where generally happy about those changes and hopefully they'll buff TP too by lowering its CD(Not the unleashed one tp) by a minute or something I those lines since it's mainly used now just to come back to ur own lane and reduce the losses instead of actually influencing the map as it was intended, that will help against the snowballing meta too hopefully.
I agree with everything you said but one thing. Why should they decrease xp junglers get from cs while not buffing xp of the jg camps. The jg camps should get you lvl6 by second full clear now it only gets you to 5.5-5.6
I think he has a point with most of it. I personally like the easier krugs and healthier clears because it allows for more champion variation in the jungle and I feel lowers the barrier of getting into jungling too (which is good because there's a big lack of junglers on the server I play on, it's almost always a "priority role"). I think removing scuttle shield was also a really good move for this season because a lot of intended jungle champs could only break it with smite which just felt kinda bad imo and made me less excited to play those champs because breaking the shield was so tedious but if you smite the shield enemy jgl can just come and smite steal the crab. Which isn't game losing but it just feels bad. The counterjungle changes are weird and I especially think it's kinda bad that you can't leave one small raptor or wolf etc to keep the camp from respawning. If someone steals my topside camps while I'm hard camping bot they really just leveled up my camps for me so I get more xp the next time I go to clear them... So yeah, the only options seem to be either countergank or camp the opposite lane to try to get a lead there instead. In a way I don't mind it terribly because I am low elo scrub who is bad at it anyway. But I get that it's an issue in higher elo and it also makes it even harder for me *to* learn because the game doesn't want you to do it anymore. I also think jungle as a role is inherently too important. It makes both laning and jungling less enjoyable imo, because if I'm laning and my jungler is awful it kind of feels like we just auto lose the game. And if I'm jungling and fall behind I feel like I alone caused my team to lose the game (and people flame and grief junglers *so much* too which makes me not want to jungle at all unless I'm five-stacking). This comment is long and I'm a nobody in piss elo so I doubt anyone will read it lol but since I spent all this time writing it I might as well post it too B) if you did read it I hope you have a nice day
When players of all elos independently agree about something being a problem, it can only mean that the problem is real. I've come back a month ago (not jungler though) and discovered just now that leaving small creeps alive still resets the camp, what the heck. I'm feeling like I'm in some science fiction movie like Planet of the Apes, where I come back after some years and find changes that I'd never have imagined.
As a fill main (so this season that means Jungle and ADC main), I find that if I full clear, I’m usually behind my opponent on levels and kills because kills >> getting better smite for objectives. No matter what really happens, ganking is always better than just farming. I’m also a Bel’Veth main, so this really sucks because I kinda need to farm for my passive to get better over time. But it’s ok, because at least my laners are winning :)
I feel like I almost never agree with T1 on most topics but, he was right on the money here. Fucking embarrassing that Riot has let it get to this point.
I wont lie but imo s11 was the best season ive ever played only because of the whip items. I just loved being an assassin bruiser and also having the gapcloser on champs like garen, sett and urgot who really needed it to be useful and fun
I can't say that this is uniquely horrible though. Losing every game from a scuttle crab 2v2 was terrible. Having the enemy jungler be 3 levels higher than everyone on the map because they did some cheese invade shit was also terrible. Jungle is consistently the most problematic role in this game. To be completely honest, I think this iteration of the jungle is stupid but also you can just play it right. If there is an Elise or other camper type jng, you're going to have to assume theyre either 2 camping mid or bot, or she's diving a low solo laner. That sylas gank after seeing xin sitting bot for that long was moronic. To be clear, this jungle meta isn't great either, but I prefer it over last season's 'play your lane for the early invade or just literally lose the game'.
Counter jungling is how junglers punish mistakes. Laners trade attacks/abilities for hp and zone people off gold and xp. It's the most unique role in the game and it's understandable why not many people like it. But just like a winning lane is capable of starving the enemy of resources and build up a win through exploiting mistakes, so good junglers should be rewarded by punishing the enemy. It's incredible how people with no match up knowledge, gank understanding who play on the opposite side of the free objective hit diamond+. That should be the equivalent of 4 cs/min mid laner, losing the 10th cannon to tower
Unless you're in high ELO jungle is a nightmare. Players don't understand how to play around you and it's essentially like playing support except you have to sync with 4 players instead of one. Not to mention, it's the most flamed role, it's changed almost every patch, and everyone expects you to win their lane for them. I actually stopped playing jungle because of these reason and have much more success in any role than jungle.
They've been doing this kind of thing for like 5 or 6 years now. They try to make jungle more "beginner friendly" and in the process end up just removing skill expression and/or breaking the role. There is no reason that junglers should almost be incentivised to just camp bushes and never try to actually push a lead unless it's specifically through ganking.
Everything he said I agree. I am a casual who plays all 5 roles for fun but now-a-days I don't feel I am enjoying playing jg like before. I play farming jg cuz I am not good at ganking concept. From the start of this season even I am forced to change my play style and gank more because thats how the meta works now.
A few things to note. 1/ This opinion is true but it's not really relevant anymore to point this out since Riot is going to remove camps protections anyway 2/ Sylas jungle is a specific case since his jungle clear is really worse than the majority of actual junglers. It doesnt make Tyler's point invalid though 3/ Overall full clear takes 3:30 instead of 3:15, not sure the Krugs change actually made things worse. 4/ Counterjungling was already not a common problem especially in lower elos, I have no clue as to why they nerfed it further more
Bot has always been a feeding lane in my experience, which I was always fine with and never really affected my impact on the game as a top laner, but lately, they seem to be dying significantly earlier and more often. Used to be bot would int once or twice early, that was expected, then jg would have to at least try gank other lanes, because other lanes used to have more agency and could still shit on botlane as long as they didn't fall behind. Now it's just gank bot for the entirety of early game and they get so behind other lanes can rarely help them come back. Literally just makes 2/5 of your team useless and 3/5 of enemy team too overpowered. What's even crazier is when you stay in lane all game as a solo laner, maybe miss 1 wave at most worth of XP, and then bot lane is somehow the same level as you despite having to split EXP 3 ways.
Jungle is in such an annoying position right now. I genuinely feel like games now are either decided or largely dictated by what the Jungler does or does not do early. It's so cancer to play against and with. It makes laning feel partially irrelevant because Jungle can gank you from lv 2 at 2:30 and it's an actually viable and good path. I remember it being the case that only certain Junglers like xin and j4 could viably do a lv 2 gank and have it not just int the entire game away. Revert the jungle changes and force junglers to actually have to decide between farming and ganking.
I have been abusing gragas jungle this season, while literally drastically losing every single role except ADC. All I did as a gragas red krugs, and sit in bot bush for the longest time, it never fucking failed because even if I never ever went top side I would just do bot side camps and regank the same lane over and over because guess what? You make more gold from ganks and more exp from gank than full clearing or invading as a jungler.
I’m a top jungle main. Top was my first role and it’s my favorite role, but I cannot play it anymore because if I don’t my team will be down 3 dragons and not with be 0/12 by minute 15. I only play league with my friends and they always so that the impact I have on the game is SO much bigger when I’m in jungle rather than top, and it’s just true. I’m obviously not the greatest player ever because I’m a gold player who plays 30 games a year max, but I almost feel like I can’t win unless I play jungle
Man I agree so much with him, I play a lot of jungle and before those changes, missing a gank, being seen for nothing would cost you camps/vision/tempo on the map, back then IT MEANT A LOT. Now I don't say that this would be bad to counter jungle or do something to punish ennemy team on the opposite side of the map, because imo it's still the good thing to do if you can't really do a gank, but what is terrible with the jungle now is that the loss for being seen or missing a gank ISN'T TOO BAD AT ALL because you can catch up on xp really easily... In the worst case the bad jungler gets a random kill from camping another minute on a ward, and now the r*tard is ahead of you, when you spent every second doing the right thing with the cards you had to play, because what ever sh*t the ennemy jungler did there is xp catch up and he can farm later after he finished fishing for random kills that would have never been worth it (in most case) before all those sh*t changes... And the impact on the laners is also terrible... imagine you are the good laner, you face an opponent doing mistakes, the fact that the jungler can camp a lane like hell for a little to no cost makes you unable to convert some mistakes in an advantage, because all laners know that they should respect the threat of the jungle gank. I've seen laners losing their carry potential for doing the right plays, but because of this jungle meta, one "good" move from the ennemy could ruin all the advantage that was built before in ONE MOVE that may be would have been sh*t in the old meta. I really understand the frustration of the laners typing "jungle diff", because they can't capitalize on mistakes anymore, and are getting sh*t on from one move although they punished most the opponent mistakes before the said move.
I loved what they tried to do with preseason jungle changes, encourages off meta picks and more jg diversity. Had a lot of fun with neeko and pyke jungle, but now if you are not playing stier picks its borderline unplayable
I agree with him, i think that back in the days no one used to play jungle cause of the difficulty of the role, but make it easier doesn’t mean allowing people to waste time and still win…
The problem is often that there is no way to prevent or punish. When there still was the counter jungling penalty i would have said to just remove it topside only. But that is fing over toplaners that get camped ... Junglers just get too much for nearly free now that its hard to do anything cause they will just pick up the champ that riot for some reason decides needs a buff and then it wont matter that jg monsters do more damage. I have never seen a xin lower then 3/4 from jg alone. And making it the default that they get to half after a full clear just results in what we saw with the sylas. The jg being punished for not ganking.
As a toplaner that's fking disgusting that when I duo with my buddy jungler he's FORCED to constantly gank bot and even with ganks this idiots still feed and do nothing so he has no options apart from me or mid.
You can have a blast with any champion at any role, if theres a jg diff, you lose. Simple because ,you can be a Sett 12/00 agaist a Yorick 0/12. And your jg is 0/04, level 8, while the enemy jg is 4/0 level 12. Yorick and the Enemy Jg team up on late game, shutdown, 700/1000 Gold reward, instant lost. This al without counting other lanes reciving influence of the better jg and of course, the total obliteration of any ADC without mobility.
Shut down gold is soooo STUPID its like it punishes your for playing good. Shut down gold should be capped at 300 .... getting 3.5 kills worth of gold for one kills is insanity. Imagine how good you have to play to kill your opponent 3 times back to back to back in a 1v1 scanario...and yet that opponent can get one gank and is back in the game. This is why this game feels terrible to play.
I started playing lol exclusively jungle since s2... now I barely play summoner's rift, and when I do play a game once in a blue moon it's almost always top if I don't get filled jungle because of 2nd option... You can steal however many camps from the enemy you want... it won't matter when it comes to xp...
honestly, as a jungle OTP before in season 6 and 7, to main jungle and support in season 8, and again jungle main from season 9 to now, i just suggest to revert every single god damn thing to season 5, where you couldnt outrun master yi in highlander, supports were either hard CC or hard shielders, not this full damage senna or lux support that obliterate you for ganking. and revert ryze aswell because he still isnt loved at all. also, give us tunderlords and fervor of battle. that rocket hard
This is a sylas specific problem. The champ just cant clear. Most junglers can take gromp there and maybe do a wolf heist aswell. Granted it doesnt do that much, considering xin will just look for more gank angles until his botside respawns, and hes going to get the bullshit catchup xp and be even. Just remove catchup xp and the treats gold, make camps more valuable by themselves. Maybe add in a feature that whenever u clear a camp, u choose to level it up or keep it same level. So your counterjgling doesnt just gift enemy a higher lvl camp faster.
I agree, as someone who plays jungle myself in what world should the enemy jungle be 1/4, hard gapped, but he's still relevant in the game because me, and him are the same level, and the only difference is I'm an item up. The only way he wins a 1v1 is if I make one mistake
i completely agree with him, i used to watch tons of guides for jungle and how to adjust your plan every few seconds and punish enemy mistakes and i reached masters last season with jungle, then the preseason came and there is no double camping and you have to play it like a toddler because warwick can't clear fast enough so they slowed every other jungler clear speed to match him but whatever, then when enemy does shit pathing i can't punish him if i am not in that side of the map because he is allowed to fuck up easily and catch again to me who tried to farm efficiently, path according to laners matchups and do what had to be done for 12 years this season is a joke
I swear to god a Rioter tried to play jungle for the first time ever and felt so lost they decided to dumb down the entire JG. This had nothing to do with making the JG more accessible as they said. This is just literally them holding back all the decent junglers by reducing the skill ceiling so anyona can autofill it.
@@PapaTangoYankee it's like you play toplane without learning wave management and you get more exp if you are behind because enemy denied you tons of farm and also you get more gold if you farm minions afterwards
as a top main i ram eally sad of the state of top since 3 season but i was getting used to it and trying to have 3 time the level of my opponent to get a lead, but now jungle is too much broken i cant take a trade bc if i do and jgl is here its over, so i just leaved the game until some changes are made to toplane or nerf to jgl
Just had that thing a game ago. Enemy J4 Lv2 ganks bot and repeat ganks two more times. Meanwhile I am „counterjungling“ almost dying to enemy camps which took ages. At this point it would straight been better just to clear down and try to countergank or idk ?? And why tf do jungle camps just die when you don’t clear it completely ???
Current jungle meta is so boring, it practically rewards afking in bot bushes because you can’t punish anything without ending up behind anyway. Farming junglers feel terrible to play because you get half the reward for counter jungling while sitting bot waiting for 20 minutes to gank will get you miles ahead
hear me out bring back a good stacking item for junglers. it will force them to focus on the jungle more and taking the junglers shit more. and if someone comes out with the whole i don't want to get 2 shot logic. thats legit built into lol. but for how it is now. junglers need a incentive. are own camps give fuck all gold xp. we know ganking and camping lanes work why change it. all they will do with the krugs change is bring back the stale fucken exp for junglers. and not change camping or early ganks at all just slow it down by 1.min or 56secs or if ya playing any meta picks not at fucken all
He's absolutely right. Everything they've done to jungle since preseason, from the stupid jungle pets to the disincentives to counterjungling, has completely ruined the game for every role. I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an uproar; the game feels the worst it has in years.
Tyler1's ponts are good but he forgot to mention the fact that it was a Sylas jungle and that why he didn't lose his top side, and champion made for jungling loses the blue and(only with smite) and loses just the blue(w/o) never be able to take the wolves there
Im not a jg main and im not even that aware of the jg changes but after the 2v2 on mid wasnt it better for sylas yo end the top side blue clearing? Gromp and wolves? After that they wouldve been "equal" and about the early power difference its a xin against a sylas... What do we expect?
He is totally right. To counter effect this i will take good jg clearers like Morde or Sion. Have a 65% winrate with morde too far so i can say its pretty good.
Yea you shouldn't get punished for counter jungling (as in they should bring back counter jungling) + the camp automatically despawning when the big jungle camp dies should either be removed or it only happens when a teammate takes the camp and even then I'm still not sure it should be in the game
Jungle is just a nightmare to balance, they need a full rework or just remove it. If they buff counter jungling like he suggests, all we get is champions like udyr/nunu 24/7 instead. Jungle changes are just swapping a few broken champs for a different few broken champs. It never changes anything. I think the only thing that riot can do is either do a massive overhaul to the entire concept of jungling, im not talking tweak clear timers or something, I mean massive changes, and I honestly don’t even know what that would look like. Or just remove the role entirely and find a way to make jungle champs into solo laners and just do a second support top lane. Melee supports could go too with melee Fighters and ranged supports could go bot with ranged Carries. Idk something like that. Third idea- maybe just go back to the season 1-2 model of “jungle camps literally kill anyone without sustain in their kit like Warwick/nunu/nocturne/Hecarim. Restricting the jungle role by making it harder to actually clear might be a way to fix it.
I see his point, BUT as OP the jgl role is, jgl gap isn't as heavy as it used to be. Last seasons the BIG majority of the games are decided by jgl gap. Now that isn't the case anymore. Atleast not as often because the game isn't as high paste anymore. Ofc for the top players, this is bad jungle. I think they need to find a way to make jungle a scaling macro role. Meaning it should have less impact early on lanes and more on objectives. How do you balance that out? Give less exp from kills in the early levels and maybe give junglers a lower cooldown on vision tools. AND to make support a role for actual good players, we should make it so that they get activated in their role in laning phase MORE. That role is on paper the second hardest role. Though the players are so clueless that every decent support is atleast masters. You can make the support something for both adc AND jgl which makes more sense because that's what the role of a support actually is. Just not used like that and I don't know why.
Maybe they can add a mechanic like Draven has but for jg monsters or a damage buff you get for each camp that’s down when you gank. There’s a solution somewhere I’m sure of it
As a player who prefers powerfarm junglers over ganking junglers, this is just absurd. Sure, Sylas is a bad jungler to clear with a sustain yourself in the initial clear, but the point still stands. Even if it was Graves in that situation, taking Gromp on top of the blue buff, it would still take a lot of time, all the while Xin is still hovering bot and has free access to my bot side camps as well as compensation. It's stupid. What should happen is that Graves in that situation should be able to full clear Xin's top side jungle, leaving one wolf to prevent respawn (previous season mechanic), and my bot lane should attempt to cover by blue side jungle for 10 seconds, until I recall and be there to defend it myself. I'm level 4 at the time, Xin is still 3, I probably have Serrated Dirk and hard win 1v1, I clear my blue side, go to my raptors - krugs (possibly getting top scuttle before those two camps if I didn't take after stealing those wolves), now I'm level 5 and a half and game is over because I can now even invade Xin's gromp, he cannot fight me, I'm getting 6 and run the map.
honestly the problem there was the subobtimal pick of sylas jungle and thus his inability to clear topside fast and healthy enough. Even with the xp reduction the gold advantage is still worth the while.
so here is a though. what if, and I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible, we introduce a system where counter jungling is rewarded? we already have catch up mechanics in league. Like a boat load for the jungler. so how about we introduce a mechanic like one of these two? 1. if a camp is counterjungled, it spawns 45 seconds faster than normal. 2. if a camp isn't taken by the jungler that is supposed to take it within 45 seconds of spawn, if another jungler takes the camp, it grants 20% more gold. if either one of those changes were added, what would happen?
the funny thing is hes just completely right. riot made jungle so hard to punish due to the changes that if the enemy jungler spends time ganking, its better to just take the tempo and farm your camps since you do it faster than punish the enemy jungler by farming their camps.
as someone who otp hecarim and changed to nunu in S13 with terror-ist gameplay on the botlane (gank every 30 seconds) and went up 800 lp, i approve of this.
I remember when the jungle didn't have all the extra stuff like counter jungling is slower or caps spawn at different times. The entire jungle spawned at the same time and were all equally tough to kill. It was simple and effective
He's right, revert all of the preseason jungle changes. It ruined the jungle by removing like half the skill you needed to even play the role, it removed all of the early game strategy from the role and it legit killed counter jungling which was a huge part of the game which was balancing things out. Now there's no proper balance, there's no skill involvement, it's just a who gets to gank faster type meta and all about that snowball power spike WHICH THEY ARE TRYING TO REMOVE BY THE WAY.
i agree. i don't even play jungle anymore because you just get punished for doing the correct thing. on top of that they should nerf the catch up xp. the worst thing in the world is full clearing and taking an entire side from enemy jungle you end up like 5 camps ahead with same kp but you're hitting lvl 6 at the same time. in no other lane does riot reward bad gameplay the way it does for jungle just let people get punished for making bad plays and rewarded for making good ones
He complains about jungle every season. First of all, krugs were a pain in the ass to clear. We can all agree on that. Second, sylas has a weak first clear, and xin has a very healthy one, so I don't know what he is complaining about. Xin camping that bush was the best scenerio for sylas because he had free time to do a full clear and gank bot, but instead, he decided to invade with his weak ass jungler and the 20% damage reduction to enemy camps and then forced mid. Its just a champion knowledge diff
Jungling used to be more cerebral. Now I look up KR challenger vods, even from the top of the top LCK junglers and they're playing like bronze newbies who have no clue what to do. Playing like an idiot is legitimately the correct way to play jungle now. every time I see them gank bot, back or die. Respawn. Run by your camps which are all up (at most maybe take one but sometimes they don't even do that). Gank bot again. Continue to run by your camps which are all still up. Gank again. It's not fun. First time since I started the game (S6) that I have completely dropped my role.
I play jg and i agree, 1 game i took gragas entire red side, ganked top got 1st blood, took my entire blue took my raptors and krugs (gragas took my red) AND HE WAS LVL 4 WHEN WE MET MID
And imagine if Sylas could full clear his blue topside. Guess what, Xin would gank mid, recall go blue topside and clear the now higher lvl camps and get MORE xp and probably be ahead in xp.
100% valid point. Forcing jungles to have some position at certain moments (or getting punished for it) wound be fair. As a laner, you HAVE to catch waves, there is no option. All your laning is conditionned by the "time" you can buy to not miss the wave. Junglers camp respawn automatically and wait for them. Camps should have a real impact on junglers tempo somehow. Either in an Ivern way where he needs to "prep" them first. Or a zyra way "they only spawn if you get close to them" and their level don't increase if cleared by your opppnent. I don't know, but just put a real constraint on that.
Look it's not because i was a jungle main or anything but by far jungle ain't the most broken role, it is the most frustrating to play against as a laner which ruins someone mood to play and play worse if they get ganked like this. And it's not because i say it, it is because champions winrate in D1+ can prove it, most of the highest winrates champions are from roles like Top and Mid, then support jungle is pretty much tied and obviously adc as always is the worse of them all. But by all honesty, jungle role can be fixed quite easily that can target this specific issue tyler introduced, they can make it so jungle buffs don't give lvl 2 instantly, which a lot of characters abuse to even gank at lvl 2 even before lanes start to farm. Also they can lower the EXP gain during the 1st 4 to 5 minutes after jungle spawns to the point they have to clear 4 camps to reach lvl 3, putting them at the same lvl if not even lower compared to the rest of the lanes, after that time passes they can upscale the EXP gain so junglers can get on an even level with the rest. This will encourage early jungle clearing or even contest for enemy's camps. Obviously it would require to lower the jungle item cost to the point they can buy 3 pots or introduce a refillable like in season 4-5 that would refill itself every time you cleared a camp. And last i would etheir nerf jungle clear from champions like hecarim, diana, graves etc. so they wont make early game junglers completely useless to pick or buff early game junglers their clearing speed. This will fix a lot of issues and leave some breathin room towards the lanes to play their own game at their own pace, on top of that they wont feel so weak to deal against a jungler ganking their lane which if he fails he gets heavily punished but if he success, because he is at an even lvl or lower, he will earn more exp.
Thankfully Riot is reverting this bull shit so this exact scenario can actually be punished. Tylers assessment on this on this is 100% correct, but the main problem I have with it is that this response was not unpredictable if you've ever spent anytime playing the jungle role. On october last year when they made the counter jungle change, I made a comment on one of Ryscu's videos that this would be a regression towards a meta that we've previously had before of a similar meta that was forced on riot around season 10 or so (don't remember) with riot doing a similar set of changes that made farming and counter jungling worthless, as at the time you gained more value by hyper camping top side. I had a couple of comments believe that I was incorrect to make that statement, but this result was obvious; farming was already nerfed during preseason when they got rid of double leashing to align jungle timers since season 12 was mainly dominated by champions that could full clear the quickest through double camping.We we're already arguably heading towards a meta like this, but then they semented thsi shit into the dirt with that original change, for 6 fucken months. Preseason feels unimpactful in this game because every god dam patch feels like a preseason change to some degree these days, and for this change in particular the main issue is how long it took Riot to actually respond to this, given the result can be somewhat expected. It shouldn't take 6 months to uncheck their egos to revert out changes like this, and I feel like many changes that Riot goes with these days fall into this category.
I completely agree with Tyler. Sh** is ridiculous, needs complete addressing, I as a former jungle main, when jungle was a hard nitty gritty role. Absolutely despise where it stands now and have gone to playing Mid and Support
Honestly the worst part is just how much HP you lose by clearing camps. It's so steep that in most cases you'd rather do nothing and be strong for the fight than clear an extra camp with the time and do the "right" thing.
i dont think junglers neccessarily complain about the state of the game, since jungle is so much easier to do nowadays. but as the jungler you get blamed sooooo often, and often its not even your fault. Especially in low elo (Bronze btw) i've seen it so many times that a lane dies twice solo, while the jungler didnt even clear 3 camps... and it then gets blamed on the jungler
Because less skilled players do better when they are not supposed to and good players cant even take advantage when it comes to taking camps for ex Sylas.
bcs it sucks to play jg. either you play this in this stupid counterlogic way or you lose. the jungler that manages to secure drakes wins. thats it. there is no skill expression in the game anymore.
Rwvert jungle changes so I, the top laner, can counter jungle again x). Now Aatrox needs to cast 2-3 sets of Qs instead of 1 set to clear an enemy camp
even if they didnt nerf the invade , it was still bs manytimes i invade to punish enemy jg and somehow he would still have same xp because he got lane xp or kill xp
tbh sylas mistake was to steal blue then straight gank mid, xin is early game jungler he needs to expect that he eithet goes gank mid or invade botside, so he could have stayed to get all xin topside camps
I agree that counter jungling should be more incentivesed but I think it's a good thing that you're not inherently save from hanks for the first 5 min of the game because jng has to path top side for clear
I think all of what he said is correct, however, I think the other problem is lane exp. Junglers will take all camps including their opponents and if their opponent ganks gets a single kill and helps shove, they are there same level or even higher than their counterpart.
To fix the jungle: Unironically, remove smite. Leave the jungle camps as an optional source of additional XP to collect while roaming. The dedicated "jungler" roll could be entirely optional. When when jungle is balanced, it's the least popular role. Most players I know would rather not have their lanes decided by jungle interference. If people don't want to play jungle and don't want jungle to have an impact, just make the role optional.
![How Riot Games lost TES Worlds [FULL BUG ANALYSIS]](/img/n.gif)
Havent seen anyone yet explaining it this way yet and after hearing this I totally agree. I'm not a jungler by any means but getting lvl 2 ganked on bot every game is so insanely annoying. While our jungler "punishes" their jungler for doing that, he gets no advantage at all. I see junglers being many kills and cs ahead and being on the same lvl or maybe 1 lvl up.
I agree, Xin would have got more xp and gold from a kill than Sylas did from countering Xin`s jungle with way less effort in my opinion
Im always more cs than enemy junglers but since they just tax their team and tske XP and jungle camps giving NO XP they are same level they need to BUFF do gain from camps atleast late game
While i agree jgl might be too strong - sylas should just have ganked instead of invading no? Its common knowledge invading has been nerfed dor some reason
Take note: Sylas is weak at clearing jungle camps early game, and also no sustain. if any other jungle champs like Lee sin, graves, Maokai, Wukong, etc they can kill camps pretty easily with more health to spare...
@@jonandquiros7333 Ye sure but that won't do much anyways they wouldn't be that much faster than it would have matterd.
getting punished for counter-jungling when you are supposed to counter-jungle is peak riot balancing.
I completely agree with Tyler on this one. Riot just keeps dropping the ball on Jungle as a role and it shows. Not that I know how to fix it, but I feel like they could do plenty better.
I agree with him with counter jungling but heres the problem after so many patches we would be where we started in like early S11, where smite is now not a 50/50 so take that for what you will. The role itself is too impactful in all ranks by the very nature of the role and buffs drags give and the importance of ganking. So in reality lets say we revert the changes for counter jungling. Nothing would change and we'd be back to s11 jungling before the initial changes.
Simple solution to start with: Revert the jg changes of the season involving counter jg and the nerfed exp and gold other roles get for killing camps. Then nerf the exp on lane and make camps more essential to their growth. Then make any further adjustments from there.
@@demsterclippy4252 Yes, fellow bard player, I fully agree.
Riot's goal is not to make the game better but to baby the players so they play. Jungle's counter jungle was removed as explained.
They removed jungle's pathing knowledge by adding the "guides" in game on where you will path next for "most effective pathing" so players won't need to study youtube guides.
They weakened the jungle so players will be less punished for not kiting properly (players don't want to study how to kite properly)
and the result is the current jungle. Riot cares too much about what their players cannot do and keep fixing it which means players would be lax on practice. Instead of players upping their games by watching tutorials, Riot lowered their bar to those player's performance.
It's like instead of studying to learn multiplication, Riot be like, "Let's just remove multiplication in the curriculum so players won't have a harder time."
Actually, I expected this quality of gameplay miles away SINCE they started to add the jungle pets on pre season.
One of the few reasons junglers like Elise and maokai was 57 wr . Spamm ganking while not doing a single full clear whole game is the way
And maokai has a crazy clear speed so he actually still can from while at the same time perma gank
@@tealover7058 yep fast clear and fast movement is the meta.
@@lovisericachii4503 ah I hate it. It’s so clear to see as well in the statistics. Champions like jarvan nunu dominating solo queue just because those are the champs who are good at perma ganking
same for nunu
Elise is oppressive but its no where near as bad as Maokia, Xin, Vi, Zac, J4 and even Nunu is way better than he should be rn. Purely because the jungle is so tanky so the fact these junglers are also tanks just instantly makes them better at living through the jungles/enemy’s bullshit first few clears.
They literally don’t have to farm so the fact they can just walk away all game and get catchup XP because the enemy can never threaten an invade is fucking retarded
The man hit Challenger on every single role, Tyler1 has a unique amount of game knowledge and can give a point of view for any role or just overall because of how well rounded his experience is as a player in recent years. Dude genuinely knows better than the devs majority of the time.
99% of the people who are above plat know better about this game than the devs.
NA challenger
@@Antixandros a plat detected😅
Most of the time? He knows more about those useless devs all of the time. As Tyler has said many times himself, everyone working at Riot are bronze. The only one we know of who is high elo is Auberaun, who I believe is Grandmaster.
Nothing else to be said, I agree. Effectively removing counter-jungling on top of making Jungling so goddamn easy and basic destroyed all skill expression in the jungle.
There is more to be said: Namly that Sylas sucks at clearing camps. Pretty much any other meta jungler would have been able to clear the whole quadrant, end up with more health than this sylas and be level 4.
@@Cubacma08 yeah idk why people are praising what he showed us Sylas is the most useless jungler early game and people are STILL doing it for no reason there's alot of option in AP to choose from and it would be better example in this clip as well. If the sylas is actually someone else like ekko elise they will clear all 3 camps like ease with 1 smite
Exactly what I was thinking.
I mean he said this days before Phlox released a message that they would be reverting some of the jungle changes. No more 20% reduction on enemy camps, more gold in the jg. Counterjungling should be back I think.
But they still buffed jg.
But riot still grants jungle the impact it has
@@mustangcody by doing this they nerf the impact a jungler can have, seeing how you now get punished for sitting in that tribush for a minute, because youd lose your top camps
@@mustangcody buffing gold and exp in the jungle just means they spend less time perma ganking which nobody likes so idk why you're complaining
@No tengo Nombre why they're buffing it is because junglers have no incentive to actually farm the jungle, they could be annoying pieces of shit and perma camp bott, while just rotating their 3 bottside camps in between ganks, while your jg can perma clear on cooldown and both would be the same xp with not much of a difference in gold, even worse if the pemaganker got a kill or 2, your jungle is now effectively behind, they're basically incentivising junglers actually doing the jungle, instead of being gank bots
a few weeks ago i was playing lillia vs a nunu. i remember he camped botlane for so long that i was able to take his whole topside jg twice and he still had a level lead before the 15 min mark. i miss lillia counterjungling, the map felt so much more free and flexible
Countergank dimwit
Imagine farming, using oracle to control vision, knowing when to gank or not, how to smite properly and contest objectives, imagine knowing how to do all of that, only to lose to the enemy jungler that farms kills in your botlane and gets fed within the first 10 minutes of the game, just spamganking the lane and pressing Q. That's what playing as a jungler nowadays feels.
Imagine how it feels for the botlane... Really the only roles that feel good to play seem to be top and mid.
the game is balanced around low elo trashes unfortunately . Riot keeps removing skill from the game year after year . Its becoming truly sad seeing the game is such a garbage state
@@DamonDraven how is playing top feeling good? Literally worst role the higher elo you go
@@tomisjoblom5998 Maybe because my elo is low. :P
Main jungle here. he is totally right. I always counter jungled before when jungler did a shit gank. But now when there is no punishment for it they always stay around the same level so there is zero Advantage to your team. It forces you to play cheesy tactics instead of strategic one. I really loved League before esp jungler. But I am bored out of my mind now. I play Champs that clear fast and can gank all lanes. And my team wins early, its over. The game is so Busted atm.
plat jg here. I agree
It actually puts yourself behind, because if you let his camps at level 1 he get shit exp, but if you counterjungle they respawn at higher lvl and give much more exp, so you boosted his camps by taking them. He would have missed the window to farm them anyway cause he can just gank and have much more impact in the game and come back to a full jgl to farm. In doing so you also take a lot more time and lose agency on the map because of your probably low hp.
can u pls explain what the jg changes are, have't been following patches for a while
@@LmIp10 main points are buffed jungle sustain, buffed catchup xp, and KILLED counter jungling
what are the chamla that clears fast?
I agree they need to reverse the counter jungling nerfs, as a Trundle main I miss how easy I could do it but now its a coin toss
yea trundle is sh aswell
They are removing those.
trundle main in this economy? bro you must be losing it. that champ is ass.
They have stated taht they will remove the 20% damage nerf
@@kaanny wdym? his dance scales with attack speed now
His twitch personality aside he is 100% right and he is very smart at the game not all games are like this but it is absurd how a jg impacts the game in absurd degree
They have so much influence on the game it is so insane.
he was acting fairly normal in this clip idk what "twitch personality" you're bitching about. just because someone you don't like makes a good point doesn't mean you have to make some weird concession before agreeing with them.
@@eebbaa5560 tyler fan spotted
Not a jungle main, but enjoy playing jungle now and then. My favourite playstyle in the jg is aggressively counter jungling and stealing camps to put the enemy further behind. I've never felt worse playing the game than playing jungle this season, when I can see the enemy jungle item with 15+ camps while i've finished mine, and they are equal level or higher than I am, with similar number of items.
Totally agree. I also hate the power gank meta. There's no variety and theres no skill. Ontop of that I dont know when or why they made it so camps reset even if you dont kill the small monsters. Yet again a nerf to counter jungling. I hate it. I remember in the past I could get a massive 2 or 3 level lead simply by counter jungling only and bullying the enemy jungle. That's not possible anymore. You steal the enemy camps and they just gank and kill your laners and still snowball.
there is a ton of skill, actually. bot lane NEEDS to manage their wave for a level 3 gank. That turbogank is NOT guaranteed to work, at all. And if they play smart, it can actually lead to real punishment for a failed gank. This clip is misleading because Sylas literally has the worst first clear out of all junglers, to the point where some people actually consider him non-viable, and thats why he got his ass kicked by blue. I'd be perfectly fine with changes that make it so that turboganking bot is less meta, but its not as braindead of a move as people are making it out to be.
@@pinnacleexpress420 no no you don't understand. League is aiming to accommodate to the vast majority of players and almost completely ignoring outliers, which is iron & diamond+ respectively. In Silver (majority of players' rank) BOT LANE DOES NOT KNOW WAVE MANAGEMENT, and the is no playing smart that you're suggesting. Riot know how bad they messed up. They nerfed early kill xp and also now planning on reverting the durability of enemy camps which is the natural response to the jungle problem. It is also impossible to fall behind on xp too since the increase comeback xp so that new jg players dont get caved by the jg mains. ALSO jungle gold got nerfed in preseason so why even bother to farm. 1 quadrant is 1 kill if you go bot and get double kill you just spent 10 secons ganking to do 2 mins of fullclear work in terms of gold
lol gm top who learned jg last season: when I focused clearing everything, my winrate was 48-55. When I full cleared once and focused spam ganking bot lane and wasting time but getting drakes, my winrate shot up to 70-80
Very true. I came to this realization today when I realized that, even though I get such a "huge" lead pre lvl 5 by invading enemy jungler and stuff, it does not matter because he now has an excuse to gank with full hp while I either have to recall or lose in my own jungle when I try to clear rest of the camps.
just imagine for a second that xin walked straight to his blue and outsmitted him game would legit be over 2 minutes in
He wouldn't need to outsmite, he has way more hp and early game power, he can just kill Sylas and take blue.
@@mustangcody yes but that is simply a champ diff. I am sorry but sylas sucks early. And Tyler ranting about how xin should loose his early because a scaling champ has one more camp is ludicrous.
@@quasarlgq he complained about him sitting bot for minutes without being able to punish him because counter jungling is dead. That's the point he was trying to make ganking bot is always free since u can't be punished.
@@quasarlgq bruh no watch the vid regardless if sylas is weaker he can’t contest because he’s low hp just because he did an enemy camp. If he has done his camps he would be at higher hp and could contest. Sylas got punished for counter jungling watch the vid
@@tealover7058 yes because sylas sucks at farming early levels, has horrendous clear, no healing or any sustain. Xin has healing, speed buff, cc... And everything you may want in the jungle. And yes, doing a camp will always make you go lower in hp at early levels. Should it heal you? This is if you tank a clear one extra wave while tanking it and then complain you loose the 1v1 Vs the laner. The hp diff would not change much if he did his own camp. Fiddle would be almost full hp regardless. Not all champions are made for counter jungling
Nor sure about his ideas to fix it, but he's definitely speaking facts about that state of jungle
he wants the damage reduction to enemy jungle to be removed so you can full clear xins top side. This change is coming next patch.
Counter jgling got nerfed a bit back where I think killing enemy champs is now harder so if u take enemy camps it takes longer and some how ur still at the same level as a guy who stood in a bush for 2 mins.
xd no idea why they did this and camps that dont get fully cleared are reset anyways???!!?
Literally just revert it? Lol they added this pet and anti-counterjungling shit for no reason and literally no one asked for it.
@@epicswag100xd4 I don’t even care about the pet other than it being kind of silly, but the anti-counter jungling was such a braindead idea and I’m glad they’re reverting it soon
(Disclaimer: I went way more Indepth than i meant to)
how about something like this:
make it so that smite can only smite Baron, elder and normal/epic jungle monsters. But then make it so that, after 11:30 minutes, bot laners deal increased damage to dragons, while top laners deal normal damage, mid laners deal half of the increased damage, while junglers deal the negative value of the increase that the bot laners receive (For example, if bot laners deal 65% bonus damage, junglers would deal 65% less damage.) for the ENTIRE game, not just after 11:30 minutes. Hareld would receive a similar change where the top laner deals some increased damage to it, while the mid laner deals half of that increase, bot laners have no increase, and then the jungler deals the negative value of the increased damage for the top laner. Top laners would also have the same increase they do for hareld applied on Baron.
Hareld would also give another buff relating to baron: Each harled killed will now increase all allies damage dealt to baron by 25% If you get both harleds, then, after you kill baron, all allies, if they are alone, will deal 25% of a towers max health (only procable once per tower.) Now, the person that is the "top laner" or "mid/bot laner" would be calculated by whoever is in their respective the lane most between the minutes of 1:45 and 11:30, of course with anyone that has smite being excluded. (FYI, this would be shown as a buff like blue buff right above where all your abilities are shown)
Junglers should be the "early game ganking" role that has a bit of a dip in power towards the mid game but comes back in importance in the late game when baron and elder start to exist (You could even buff smite damage to 1600 against Baron and elder to really cement this in.) top laners also would then have the main power to massively increase the impact of that Baron, while mid laners are adaptable and can help out wherever they are needed. early game the jungler would need to identify the win condition for the team and the gank that lane. If their team is suited for a double hareld-buffed-baron win condition, then he ganks top. If their team is more team fight oriented and has a strong wombo combo, then he ganks bot aiming for soul and then eventually elder. Towards the mid game the jungler and the mid lane have essentially the exact same role. They both help out wherever they are needed. If bot lane is goign for dragon, the jungler and mid lane ward off enemies while the bot lane takes it. The same goes for hareld with the top laner. But then when late game comes around, the mid laner has much the same job as in the mid game, but the jungler spikes in importance because he now has a 1600 smite to secure whichever win condition they played for.
But the main point is this: Give. Other. Lanes. Agency. Give win conditions that EVERYONE can contribute to in their own respective ways. is your whole team losing that dragon fight that your lane opponent tp'd to? No matter, you're the top laner post 11:30, and you saw that it was a losing fight, so you decided to get the harled by yourself within just 45 seconds (idk, i just threw out a random number. that could be super low.) They only Just now took the dragon and are probably recalling while you are trading the dragon for a full tower and tower plattings. Sure, they got the third dragon and are on their way to soul, but you are banking on a double-harled-buffed-baron end. If there was a fiht that broke out top lane, then the bot laners could got dragon in the same way, although with a bit less immediate "oomph" to it like harled does.
If i am not mistaken they are reverting the counter jungle nerfs and nerfing early ganks. So I as a jungle main am excited to see where this goes.
Im not surprised.
In challenger i saw 4 junglers getting banned at once
I completely agree with bringing back counter jungling. While the current iteration is less punishing it removes the factor that kept heavy gankers in check. Before, if you 3 camped you would take the optimal camps to avoid being counter jungled while losing some time. Now you can do a 3 camp quicker and that component of losing camps on the other side of the map is removed.
Junglers should be punished for making mistakes. The role is pve enough already. Disgusting.
Riot is making jungle easy to get into(making jungle highly unskilled)
There's a reason 2/3 of the other biggest mobas have removed the very concept of dedicated junglers. Its an inherently unhealthy role that is nearly impossible to balance.
Jg main here for 2 years, I totally agree and approve what T1 states, I knew from the beginning that removing counter jungling would evolve to a similar scenario in the meta and when he stated that a lot of the current junglers are idiots who just cheese instead of using their brains and doing that one thing in mind absolutely made me feel bad about my current main role. Jungle is meant to be the 9-5 role that requires a lot of practice, guides and the most understanding of the game to optimize its potential. Although it didn't make the role much easier it just made it more toxic and one sided to do 1 thing and ONLY 1 thing especially in higher elos, lvl 2 gank even it requires hiding in the same Bush for a long time and giving vision to the enemy and still getting a kill anyway. I was one of the people that requested decreasing the exp junglers gain from minions since its not jungle camps that a give a lot of exp like a lot of non-junglers think, it the MINION exp and COME BACK exp which keeps junglers that don't full clear on the same level as the full clear junglers, that's how elise got her winrate and pick rate boosted over few patches eventhogh she only received a small adjustment to her cocoon range with no damage buffs and dominated the meta with other champions that have similar playstyle so I was really glad when they nerfed comeback exp to nerf the snowballing meta. As a someone who plays top too, me and my fellow toplaners where generally happy about those changes and hopefully they'll buff TP too by lowering its CD(Not the unleashed one tp) by a minute or something I those lines since it's mainly used now just to come back to ur own lane and reduce the losses instead of actually influencing the map as it was intended, that will help against the snowballing meta too hopefully.
I agree with everything you said but one thing. Why should they decrease xp junglers get from cs while not buffing xp of the jg camps. The jg camps should get you lvl6 by second full clear now it only gets you to 5.5-5.6
Junglers taking waves and becoming stronger than every laner is cancer.
I think he has a point with most of it. I personally like the easier krugs and healthier clears because it allows for more champion variation in the jungle and I feel lowers the barrier of getting into jungling too (which is good because there's a big lack of junglers on the server I play on, it's almost always a "priority role").
I think removing scuttle shield was also a really good move for this season because a lot of intended jungle champs could only break it with smite which just felt kinda bad imo and made me less excited to play those champs because breaking the shield was so tedious but if you smite the shield enemy jgl can just come and smite steal the crab. Which isn't game losing but it just feels bad.
The counterjungle changes are weird and I especially think it's kinda bad that you can't leave one small raptor or wolf etc to keep the camp from respawning. If someone steals my topside camps while I'm hard camping bot they really just leveled up my camps for me so I get more xp the next time I go to clear them... So yeah, the only options seem to be either countergank or camp the opposite lane to try to get a lead there instead. In a way I don't mind it terribly because I am low elo scrub who is bad at it anyway. But I get that it's an issue in higher elo and it also makes it even harder for me *to* learn because the game doesn't want you to do it anymore.
I also think jungle as a role is inherently too important. It makes both laning and jungling less enjoyable imo, because if I'm laning and my jungler is awful it kind of feels like we just auto lose the game. And if I'm jungling and fall behind I feel like I alone caused my team to lose the game (and people flame and grief junglers *so much* too which makes me not want to jungle at all unless I'm five-stacking).
This comment is long and I'm a nobody in piss elo so I doubt anyone will read it lol but since I spent all this time writing it I might as well post it too B) if you did read it I hope you have a nice day
When players of all elos independently agree about something being a problem, it can only mean that the problem is real. I've come back a month ago (not jungler though) and discovered just now that leaving small creeps alive still resets the camp, what the heck. I'm feeling like I'm in some science fiction movie like Planet of the Apes, where I come back after some years and find changes that I'd never have imagined.
as a jungler i find this so season so braindead lol, as long as u get to drake and scuttle early and gank each lane once its more or less a win
trying anything else to set your opponent back by counter jungling actually is so much unnecessary risk rn
just be a good and obedient objective taker, dont give kills youre g
As a fill main (so this season that means Jungle and ADC main), I find that if I full clear, I’m usually behind my opponent on levels and kills because kills >> getting better smite for objectives. No matter what really happens, ganking is always better than just farming. I’m also a Bel’Veth main, so this really sucks because I kinda need to farm for my passive to get better over time. But it’s ok, because at least my laners are winning :)
I feel like I almost never agree with T1 on most topics but, he was right on the money here. Fucking embarrassing that Riot has let it get to this point.
I want to go back to 2020 damwon jungle meta 😭😭
s10 last good season fr
@@bezly8867 true af
I wont lie but imo s11 was the best season ive ever played only because of the whip items. I just loved being an assassin bruiser and also having the gapcloser on champs like garen, sett and urgot who really needed it to be useful and fun
I can't say that this is uniquely horrible though. Losing every game from a scuttle crab 2v2 was terrible. Having the enemy jungler be 3 levels higher than everyone on the map because they did some cheese invade shit was also terrible. Jungle is consistently the most problematic role in this game. To be completely honest, I think this iteration of the jungle is stupid but also you can just play it right. If there is an Elise or other camper type jng, you're going to have to assume theyre either 2 camping mid or bot, or she's diving a low solo laner. That sylas gank after seeing xin sitting bot for that long was moronic.
To be clear, this jungle meta isn't great either, but I prefer it over last season's 'play your lane for the early invade or just literally lose the game'.
Counter jungling is how junglers punish mistakes. Laners trade attacks/abilities for hp and zone people off gold and xp. It's the most unique role in the game and it's understandable why not many people like it. But just like a winning lane is capable of starving the enemy of resources and build up a win through exploiting mistakes, so good junglers should be rewarded by punishing the enemy. It's incredible how people with no match up knowledge, gank understanding who play on the opposite side of the free objective hit diamond+. That should be the equivalent of 4 cs/min mid laner, losing the 10th cannon to tower
Basically XZ got rewarded for doing nothing.
100% win loss rate with jg diff so far it’s kinda nuts to NOT main jg
Unless you're in high ELO jungle is a nightmare. Players don't understand how to play around you and it's essentially like playing support except you have to sync with 4 players instead of one. Not to mention, it's the most flamed role, it's changed almost every patch, and everyone expects you to win their lane for them. I actually stopped playing jungle because of these reason and have much more success in any role than jungle.
@@jekster this just means u were bad at jg. Even in my elo Masters peakers smurfs jg's win games in 5-10 mins.
They've been doing this kind of thing for like 5 or 6 years now. They try to make jungle more "beginner friendly" and in the process end up just removing skill expression and/or breaking the role. There is no reason that junglers should almost be incentivised to just camp bushes and never try to actually push a lead unless it's specifically through ganking.
Everything he said I agree. I am a casual who plays all 5 roles for fun but now-a-days I don't feel I am enjoying playing jg like before. I play farming jg cuz I am not good at ganking concept. From the start of this season even I am forced to change my play style and gank more because thats how the meta works now.
Its not just counter jungling comeback XP is fucked. A jungler can just sit and bush all game still not be under leveled.
A few things to note.
1/ This opinion is true but it's not really relevant anymore to point this out since Riot is going to remove camps protections anyway
2/ Sylas jungle is a specific case since his jungle clear is really worse than the majority of actual junglers. It doesnt make Tyler's point invalid though
3/ Overall full clear takes 3:30 instead of 3:15, not sure the Krugs change actually made things worse.
4/ Counterjungling was already not a common problem especially in lower elos, I have no clue as to why they nerfed it further more
2:28 killing big wolf and leaving small wolves does not punish anymore, the smaller mobs despawn a few seconds after, same as all other aoe camps
Bot has always been a feeding lane in my experience, which I was always fine with and never really affected my impact on the game as a top laner, but lately, they seem to be dying significantly earlier and more often. Used to be bot would int once or twice early, that was expected, then jg would have to at least try gank other lanes, because other lanes used to have more agency and could still shit on botlane as long as they didn't fall behind. Now it's just gank bot for the entirety of early game and they get so behind other lanes can rarely help them come back. Literally just makes 2/5 of your team useless and 3/5 of enemy team too overpowered. What's even crazier is when you stay in lane all game as a solo laner, maybe miss 1 wave at most worth of XP, and then bot lane is somehow the same level as you despite having to split EXP 3 ways.
Jungle is in such an annoying position right now. I genuinely feel like games now are either decided or largely dictated by what the Jungler does or does not do early. It's so cancer to play against and with. It makes laning feel partially irrelevant because Jungle can gank you from lv 2 at 2:30 and it's an actually viable and good path. I remember it being the case that only certain Junglers like xin and j4 could viably do a lv 2 gank and have it not just int the entire game away. Revert the jungle changes and force junglers to actually have to decide between farming and ganking.
I have been abusing gragas jungle this season, while literally drastically losing every single role except ADC. All I did as a gragas red krugs, and sit in bot bush for the longest time, it never fucking failed because even if I never ever went top side I would just do bot side camps and regank the same lane over and over because guess what? You make more gold from ganks and more exp from gank than full clearing or invading as a jungler.
I’m a top jungle main. Top was my first role and it’s my favorite role, but I cannot play it anymore because if I don’t my team will be down 3 dragons and not with be 0/12 by minute 15. I only play league with my friends and they always so that the impact I have on the game is SO much bigger when I’m in jungle rather than top, and it’s just true. I’m obviously not the greatest player ever because I’m a gold player who plays 30 games a year max, but I almost feel like I can’t win unless I play jungle
Man I agree so much with him, I play a lot of jungle and before those changes, missing a gank, being seen for nothing would cost you camps/vision/tempo on the map, back then IT MEANT A LOT.
Now I don't say that this would be bad to counter jungle or do something to punish ennemy team on the opposite side of the map, because imo it's still the good thing to do if you can't really do a gank, but what is terrible with the jungle now is that the loss for being seen or missing a gank ISN'T TOO BAD AT ALL because you can catch up on xp really easily...
In the worst case the bad jungler gets a random kill from camping another minute on a ward, and now the r*tard is ahead of you, when you spent every second doing the right thing with the cards you had to play, because what ever sh*t the ennemy jungler did there is xp catch up and he can farm later after he finished fishing for random kills that would have never been worth it (in most case) before all those sh*t changes...
And the impact on the laners is also terrible... imagine you are the good laner, you face an opponent doing mistakes, the fact that the jungler can camp a lane like hell for a little to no cost makes you unable to convert some mistakes in an advantage, because all laners know that they should respect the threat of the jungle gank.
I've seen laners losing their carry potential for doing the right plays, but because of this jungle meta, one "good" move from the ennemy could ruin all the advantage that was built before in ONE MOVE that may be would have been sh*t in the old meta. I really understand the frustration of the laners typing "jungle diff", because they can't capitalize on mistakes anymore, and are getting sh*t on from one move although they punished most the opponent mistakes before the said move.
I loved what they tried to do with preseason jungle changes, encourages off meta picks and more jg diversity. Had a lot of fun with neeko and pyke jungle, but now if you are not playing stier picks its borderline unplayable
I agree with him, i think that back in the days no one used to play jungle cause of the difficulty of the role, but make it easier doesn’t mean allowing people to waste time and still win…
The problem is often that there is no way to prevent or punish.
When there still was the counter jungling penalty i would have said to just remove it topside only. But that is fing over toplaners that get camped ...
Junglers just get too much for nearly free now that its hard to do anything cause they will just pick up the champ that riot for some reason decides needs a buff and then it wont matter that jg monsters do more damage. I have never seen a xin lower then 3/4 from jg alone.
And making it the default that they get to half after a full clear just results in what we saw with the sylas. The jg being punished for not ganking.
As a toplaner that's fking disgusting that when I duo with my buddy jungler he's FORCED to constantly gank bot and even with ganks this idiots still feed and do nothing so he has no options apart from me or mid.
you're playing it wrong if u duo with top + jungle, you should duo mid + jungle to actually do stuff around the map
@@spacemayonaise5481 what you talking about man I exclusively play top i despise and hate other lanes (and I'm useless on them)
I enjoy how much T1 has evolved over the years.
you can say what you want but when i see tyler talk like that i see why he is so damn good in this game
You can have a blast with any champion at any role, if theres a jg diff, you lose.
Simple because ,you can be a Sett 12/00 agaist a Yorick 0/12.
And your jg is 0/04, level 8, while the enemy jg is 4/0 level 12.
Yorick and the Enemy Jg team up on late game, shutdown, 700/1000 Gold reward, instant lost.
This al without counting other lanes reciving influence of the better jg and of course, the total obliteration of any ADC without mobility.
Shut down gold is soooo STUPID its like it punishes your for playing good. Shut down gold should be capped at 300 .... getting 3.5 kills worth of gold for one kills is insanity. Imagine how good you have to play to kill your opponent 3 times back to back to back in a 1v1 scanario...and yet that opponent can get one gank and is back in the game. This is why this game feels terrible to play.
I started playing lol exclusively jungle since s2... now I barely play summoner's rift, and when I do play a game once in a blue moon it's almost always top if I don't get filled jungle because of 2nd option...
You can steal however many camps from the enemy you want... it won't matter when it comes to xp...
honestly, as a jungle OTP before in season 6 and 7, to main jungle and support in season 8, and again jungle main from season 9 to now, i just suggest to revert every single god damn thing to season 5, where you couldnt outrun master yi in highlander, supports were either hard CC or hard shielders, not this full damage senna or lux support that obliterate you for ganking. and revert ryze aswell because he still isnt loved at all. also, give us tunderlords and fervor of battle. that rocket hard
3:47 that, was, pure tyler facts... when tyler starts talking like this, you know he will not say some fake shit, he always says the truth
powercreep for skin sales is ruining the game, who would ve thought
This is a sylas specific problem. The champ just cant clear. Most junglers can take gromp there and maybe do a wolf heist aswell. Granted it doesnt do that much, considering xin will just look for more gank angles until his botside respawns, and hes going to get the bullshit catchup xp and be even. Just remove catchup xp and the treats gold, make camps more valuable by themselves. Maybe add in a feature that whenever u clear a camp, u choose to level it up or keep it same level. So your counterjgling doesnt just gift enemy a higher lvl camp faster.
I agree, as someone who plays jungle myself in what world should the enemy jungle be 1/4, hard gapped, but he's still relevant in the game because me, and him are the same level, and the only difference is I'm an item up. The only way he wins a 1v1 is if I make one mistake
i completely agree with him, i used to watch tons of guides for jungle and how to adjust your plan every few seconds and punish enemy mistakes and i reached masters last season with jungle, then the preseason came and there is no double camping and you have to play it like a toddler because warwick can't clear fast enough so they slowed every other jungler clear speed to match him but whatever, then when enemy does shit pathing i can't punish him if i am not in that side of the map because he is allowed to fuck up easily and catch again to me who tried to farm efficiently, path according to laners matchups and do what had to be done for 12 years
this season is a joke
I swear to god a Rioter tried to play jungle for the first time ever and felt so lost they decided to dumb down the entire JG.
This had nothing to do with making the JG more accessible as they said. This is just literally them holding back all the decent junglers by reducing the skill ceiling so anyona can autofill it.
@@PapaTangoYankee it's like you play toplane without learning wave management and you get more exp if you are behind because enemy denied you tons of farm and also you get more gold if you farm minions afterwards
as a top main i ram eally sad of the state of top since 3 season but i was getting used to it and trying to have 3 time the level of my opponent to get a lead, but now jungle is too much broken i cant take a trade bc if i do and jgl is here its over, so i just leaved the game until some changes are made to toplane or nerf to jgl
Just had that thing a game ago. Enemy J4 Lv2 ganks bot and repeat ganks two more times. Meanwhile I am „counterjungling“ almost dying to enemy camps which took ages. At this point it would straight been better just to clear down and try to countergank or idk ?? And why tf do jungle camps just die when you don’t clear it completely ???
Current jungle meta is so boring, it practically rewards afking in bot bushes because you can’t punish anything without ending up behind anyway. Farming junglers feel terrible to play because you get half the reward for counter jungling while sitting bot waiting for 20 minutes to gank will get you miles ahead
hear me out bring back a good stacking item for junglers. it will force them to focus on the jungle more and taking the junglers shit more. and if someone comes out with the whole i don't want to get 2 shot logic. thats legit built into lol. but for how it is now. junglers need a incentive. are own camps give fuck all gold xp. we know ganking and camping lanes work why change it. all they will do with the krugs change is bring back the stale fucken exp for junglers. and not change camping or early ganks at all just slow it down by 1.min or 56secs or if ya playing any meta picks not at fucken all
He's absolutely right. Everything they've done to jungle since preseason, from the stupid jungle pets to the disincentives to counterjungling, has completely ruined the game for every role. I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an uproar; the game feels the worst it has in years.
Please more of this
Tyler1's ponts are good but he forgot to mention the fact that it was a Sylas jungle and that why he didn't lose his top side, and champion made for jungling loses the blue and(only with smite) and loses just the blue(w/o) never be able to take the wolves there
I can agree with the fact that they should have been able to counter jungle to prevent people just not worrying about their jungle
Im not a jg main and im not even that aware of the jg changes but after the 2v2 on mid wasnt it better for sylas yo end the top side blue clearing? Gromp and wolves? After that they wouldve been "equal" and about the early power difference its a xin against a sylas... What do we expect?
He is totally right. To counter effect this i will take good jg clearers like Morde or Sion. Have a 65% winrate with morde too far so i can say its pretty good.
Yea you shouldn't get punished for counter jungling (as in they should bring back counter jungling) + the camp automatically despawning when the big jungle camp dies should either be removed or it only happens when a teammate takes the camp and even then I'm still not sure it should be in the game
Jungle is just a nightmare to balance, they need a full rework or just remove it.
If they buff counter jungling like he suggests, all we get is champions like udyr/nunu 24/7 instead. Jungle changes are just swapping a few broken champs for a different few broken champs. It never changes anything.
I think the only thing that riot can do is either do a massive overhaul to the entire concept of jungling, im not talking tweak clear timers or something, I mean massive changes, and I honestly don’t even know what that would look like. Or just remove the role entirely and find a way to make jungle champs into solo laners and just do a second support top lane. Melee supports could go too with melee Fighters and ranged supports could go bot with ranged Carries. Idk something like that.
Third idea- maybe just go back to the season 1-2 model of “jungle camps literally kill anyone without sustain in their kit like Warwick/nunu/nocturne/Hecarim. Restricting the jungle role by making it harder to actually clear might be a way to fix it.
I really thought that his mic was insanely bad until I understood it was just the insults/bad words being censored
I see his point, BUT as OP the jgl role is, jgl gap isn't as heavy as it used to be. Last seasons the BIG majority of the games are decided by jgl gap. Now that isn't the case anymore. Atleast not as often because the game isn't as high paste anymore. Ofc for the top players, this is bad jungle. I think they need to find a way to make jungle a scaling macro role. Meaning it should have less impact early on lanes and more on objectives.
How do you balance that out? Give less exp from kills in the early levels and maybe give junglers a lower cooldown on vision tools. AND to make support a role for actual good players, we should make it so that they get activated in their role in laning phase MORE. That role is on paper the second hardest role. Though the players are so clueless that every decent support is atleast masters. You can make the support something for both adc AND jgl which makes more sense because that's what the role of a support actually is. Just not used like that and I don't know why.
Maybe they can add a mechanic like Draven has but for jg monsters or a damage buff you get for each camp that’s down when you gank. There’s a solution somewhere I’m sure of it
As a player who prefers powerfarm junglers over ganking junglers, this is just absurd. Sure, Sylas is a bad jungler to clear with a sustain yourself in the initial clear, but the point still stands. Even if it was Graves in that situation, taking Gromp on top of the blue buff, it would still take a lot of time, all the while Xin is still hovering bot and has free access to my bot side camps as well as compensation. It's stupid.
What should happen is that Graves in that situation should be able to full clear Xin's top side jungle, leaving one wolf to prevent respawn (previous season mechanic), and my bot lane should attempt to cover by blue side jungle for 10 seconds, until I recall and be there to defend it myself. I'm level 4 at the time, Xin is still 3, I probably have Serrated Dirk and hard win 1v1, I clear my blue side, go to my raptors - krugs (possibly getting top scuttle before those two camps if I didn't take after stealing those wolves), now I'm level 5 and a half and game is over because I can now even invade Xin's gromp, he cannot fight me, I'm getting 6 and run the map.
honestly the problem there was the subobtimal pick of sylas jungle and thus his inability to clear topside fast and healthy enough. Even with the xp reduction the gold advantage is still worth the while.
so here is a though. what if, and I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible, we introduce a system where counter jungling is rewarded? we already have catch up mechanics in league. Like a boat load for the jungler. so how about we introduce a mechanic like one of these two?
1. if a camp is counterjungled, it spawns 45 seconds faster than normal.
2. if a camp isn't taken by the jungler that is supposed to take it within 45 seconds of spawn, if another jungler takes the camp, it grants 20% more gold.
if either one of those changes were added, what would happen?
Tyler really has GREAT taste, he obviously rages and blames random shit sometimes but stuff like this is accurate
the funny thing is hes just completely right. riot made jungle so hard to punish due to the changes that if the enemy jungler spends time ganking, its better to just take the tempo and farm your camps since you do it faster than punish the enemy jungler by farming their camps.
as someone who otp hecarim and changed to nunu in S13 with terror-ist gameplay on the botlane (gank every 30 seconds) and went up 800 lp, i approve of this.
Amazing content, Rival! Keep it up!!
I remember when the jungle didn't have all the extra stuff like counter jungling is slower or caps spawn at different times.
The entire jungle spawned at the same time and were all equally tough to kill. It was simple and effective
He's right, revert all of the preseason jungle changes. It ruined the jungle by removing like half the skill you needed to even play the role, it removed all of the early game strategy from the role and it legit killed counter jungling which was a huge part of the game which was balancing things out. Now there's no proper balance, there's no skill involvement, it's just a who gets to gank faster type meta and all about that snowball power spike WHICH THEY ARE TRYING TO REMOVE BY THE WAY.
i agree. i don't even play jungle anymore because you just get punished for doing the correct thing. on top of that they should nerf the catch up xp. the worst thing in the world is full clearing and taking an entire side from enemy jungle you end up like 5 camps ahead with same kp but you're hitting lvl 6 at the same time. in no other lane does riot reward bad gameplay the way it does for jungle just let people get punished for making bad plays and rewarded for making good ones
He complains about jungle every season. First of all, krugs were a pain in the ass to clear. We can all agree on that. Second, sylas has a weak first clear, and xin has a very healthy one, so I don't know what he is complaining about. Xin camping that bush was the best scenerio for sylas because he had free time to do a full clear and gank bot, but instead, he decided to invade with his weak ass jungler and the 20% damage reduction to enemy camps and then forced mid. Its just a champion knowledge diff
Jungling used to be more cerebral. Now I look up KR challenger vods, even from the top of the top LCK junglers and they're playing like bronze newbies who have no clue what to do. Playing like an idiot is legitimately the correct way to play jungle now. every time I see them gank bot, back or die. Respawn. Run by your camps which are all up (at most maybe take one but sometimes they don't even do that). Gank bot again. Continue to run by your camps which are all still up. Gank again. It's not fun. First time since I started the game (S6) that I have completely dropped my role.
I play jg and i agree, 1 game i took gragas entire red side, ganked top got 1st blood, took my entire blue took my raptors and krugs (gragas took my red) AND HE WAS LVL 4 WHEN WE MET MID
And imagine if Sylas could full clear his blue topside. Guess what, Xin would gank mid, recall go blue topside and clear the now higher lvl camps and get MORE xp and probably be ahead in xp.
100% valid point.
Forcing jungles to have some position at certain moments (or getting punished for it) wound be fair.
As a laner, you HAVE to catch waves, there is no option. All your laning is conditionned by the "time" you can buy to not miss the wave.
Junglers camp respawn automatically and wait for them. Camps should have a real impact on junglers tempo somehow.
Either in an Ivern way where he needs to "prep" them first. Or a zyra way "they only spawn if you get close to them" and their level don't increase if cleared by your opppnent. I don't know, but just put a real constraint on that.
Look it's not because i was a jungle main or anything but by far jungle ain't the most broken role, it is the most frustrating to play against as a laner which ruins someone mood to play and play worse if they get ganked like this. And it's not because i say it, it is because champions winrate in D1+ can prove it, most of the highest winrates champions are from roles like Top and Mid, then support jungle is pretty much tied and obviously adc as always is the worse of them all.
But by all honesty, jungle role can be fixed quite easily that can target this specific issue tyler introduced, they can make it so jungle buffs don't give lvl 2 instantly, which a lot of characters abuse to even gank at lvl 2 even before lanes start to farm. Also they can lower the EXP gain during the 1st 4 to 5 minutes after jungle spawns to the point they have to clear 4 camps to reach lvl 3, putting them at the same lvl if not even lower compared to the rest of the lanes, after that time passes they can upscale the EXP gain so junglers can get on an even level with the rest. This will encourage early jungle clearing or even contest for enemy's camps. Obviously it would require to lower the jungle item cost to the point they can buy 3 pots or introduce a refillable like in season 4-5 that would refill itself every time you cleared a camp. And last i would etheir nerf jungle clear from champions like hecarim, diana, graves etc. so they wont make early game junglers completely useless to pick or buff early game junglers their clearing speed.
This will fix a lot of issues and leave some breathin room towards the lanes to play their own game at their own pace, on top of that they wont feel so weak to deal against a jungler ganking their lane which if he fails he gets heavily punished but if he success, because he is at an even lvl or lower, he will earn more exp.
Thankfully Riot is reverting this bull shit so this exact scenario can actually be punished. Tylers assessment on this on this is 100% correct, but the main problem I have with it is that this response was not unpredictable if you've ever spent anytime playing the jungle role. On october last year when they made the counter jungle change, I made a comment on one of Ryscu's videos that this would be a regression towards a meta that we've previously had before of a similar meta that was forced on riot around season 10 or so (don't remember) with riot doing a similar set of changes that made farming and counter jungling worthless, as at the time you gained more value by hyper camping top side. I had a couple of comments believe that I was incorrect to make that statement, but this result was obvious; farming was already nerfed during preseason when they got rid of double leashing to align jungle timers since season 12 was mainly dominated by champions that could full clear the quickest through double camping.We we're already arguably heading towards a meta like this, but then they semented thsi shit into the dirt with that original change, for 6 fucken months.
Preseason feels unimpactful in this game because every god dam patch feels like a preseason change to some degree these days, and for this change in particular the main issue is how long it took Riot to actually respond to this, given the result can be somewhat expected. It shouldn't take 6 months to uncheck their egos to revert out changes like this, and I feel like many changes that Riot goes with these days fall into this category.
I completely agree with Tyler. Sh** is ridiculous, needs complete addressing, I as a former jungle main, when jungle was a hard nitty gritty role. Absolutely despise where it stands now and have gone to playing Mid and Support
Honestly the worst part is just how much HP you lose by clearing camps. It's so steep that in most cases you'd rather do nothing and be strong for the fight than clear an extra camp with the time and do the "right" thing.
I still can not understand how junglers complain about the state of the game ... for real
this isnt fun as a jgl. bot every game boring af. dont bother to learn any clears because youll be chilling waiting for scuttle to spawn anyway
i dont think junglers neccessarily complain about the state of the game, since jungle is so much easier to do nowadays. but as the jungler you get blamed sooooo often, and often its not even your fault. Especially in low elo (Bronze btw) i've seen it so many times that a lane dies twice solo, while the jungler didnt even clear 3 camps... and it then gets blamed on the jungler
Because less skilled players do better when they are not supposed to and good players cant even take advantage when it comes to taking camps for ex Sylas.
this meta is not good for every champ, only the ones that like to spam ganks. Power farm junglers like k6 are shit right now
bcs it sucks to play jg. either you play this in this stupid counterlogic way or you lose. the jungler that manages to secure drakes wins. thats it. there is no skill expression in the game anymore.
One detail that is important is that his jungler was sylas and he is known for bad early clear , sylas usually needs to lvl 2/3 gank and recall.
Rwvert jungle changes so I, the top laner, can counter jungle again x). Now Aatrox needs to cast 2-3 sets of Qs instead of 1 set to clear an enemy camp
even if they didnt nerf the invade , it was still bs manytimes i invade to punish enemy jg and somehow he would still have same xp because he got lane xp or kill xp
tbh sylas mistake was to steal blue then straight gank mid, xin is early game jungler he needs to expect that he eithet goes gank mid or invade botside, so he could have stayed to get all xin topside camps
I agree that counter jungling should be more incentivesed but I think it's a good thing that you're not inherently save from hanks for the first 5 min of the game because jng has to path top side for clear
Not only counter jg. They have to nerf ganks and buffing camps
As a jungle main id say the jg role is pretty much winnie hot junior compared to junglinng last season
I think all of what he said is correct, however, I think the other problem is lane exp. Junglers will take all camps including their opponents and if their opponent ganks gets a single kill and helps shove, they are there same level or even higher than their counterpart.
To fix the jungle: Unironically, remove smite.
Leave the jungle camps as an optional source of additional XP to collect while roaming. The dedicated "jungler" roll could be entirely optional. When when jungle is balanced, it's the least popular role. Most players I know would rather not have their lanes decided by jungle interference. If people don't want to play jungle and don't want jungle to have an impact, just make the role optional.