This video was SO helpful it was nice to see a full pitch raise and not just chopped video. The students asked a lot of the questions that I have as well.
I have pitch raised a piano from a half step flat and was able to bring it up without issues. I was lucky though and got the instrument right at 4:40 or even a little past when I was done, not much though.
Thanks. Please make a video about tuning tehnique, how do you release from the excessive tention the segment of the string from agraff to pin, when setting the pitch, if the pin is not tight enough and does not releases that segment of string by back-twisting? Would be wery interesting!
Some pianos in some situations do need another tuning sooner after a large pitch raise - no matter how well the pitch raise and fine tuning were done. That is just the law of physics. This is of course for an optimal state of the tuning and stability. Having watched the video with all the broken strings - I have learned with pianos like this to not over-pull at all. I just work them up to pitch and let it drop and do a second pass (at pitch) to try and avoid this. However it does happen and I feel your frustration. That is not a sound you want to hear on your last piano of the day. Also I notice that you are using an up a note then back down a note as you are tuning your unisons, this could have an affect on the tension of the strings on the higher note and may have something to do with the breakage. A chromatic pattern of simply going up to the next note without back-stepping, though harder to work the mutes, might be a safer approach as the tension is moving more evenly as you work up the scale.
If you need an electronic tuner to pitch raise or even tune a piano you have not developed your ear very well. Learn aural tuning first to really train your ear. Tuning a piano with just a computer gives you a very sterile sounding piano. Its the slight fluctuations of the human ear that make the piano sing. That slight difference in temperament is what gives you tone color. Back in the day that is why composers wrote music in certain keys. It gave their music a different flavor. Equal temperament actually kills tone color. Try to alter your temperament to improve the sound of the piano. Many of my university music teachers loved my tunings because of this. Hope this helps somebody.
@@davidjenson4512 You don't have to deviate very far from ET to change the tone color of certain keys. Most professionals don't even know they just say wow the pianos sounds so much better. Try experimenting and you might find your customers enjoy the difference..
Does the non-correspondence of octaves account for different colors/feels/Affekts of various tonalities ? But the Affektlehre predates equal temperament...
I had the same problem with my D3, which is a bass unison in my piano. I was pitch raising it, and When I tuned D3, the right string broke on me, so I had to de-tune the bass section for the time I needed to replace D3's Strings
45:00 Im an aural tuner and occasionally get pianos that are more than 100 cents flat. Are you saying that these pianos can be pitch raised in one pass? The only strings I’ve ever broken have been when trying to do a raise in one session. Are these strings breaking due to a string fault or by “overstretching” them?
You basically answered my question later in the video about string/piano integrity but the question still remains about putting a 25% overpull from over 100cents flat...can strings take that much extra tension?
@@justinoneil6971 Even my Cyber Tuner app won’t let me pull a piano up to pitch from 100c flat unless maybe I tamper with its default settings. It’s setting are that way for a reason. It is risky to try to put enough overpull to bring it up from 100c flat. I recommend two pitch raises for anything that starts out at 100c flat. Also, because the tension you place in the first strings does cause the upper end of the piano to go flat (more or less depending on the piano) it’s good to keep an eye on how the pitch changes. You may start out with a 40c flat piano but by the time you are into the high treble all the new tension on previous notes has pulled the high notes 80c flat. Take it easy not just on the high treble, but also on bass strings around the bridge. Those have a higher tendency to break than other bass strings in my experience.
From what I've learned, most breaks in this instance have to do with the added tension not being evenly distributed along the string do to the string being somewhat corroded onto the bridges or capodastro bar. The instructor in this video brings up the creaking sound he hears when tuning some notes and this (it seems to me) is caused by the string being released from the corrosion. Some people think playing the note very loudly a few strikes after adding a little tension may help break the corrosion. Others say adding some lubrication to the string is the best move. Some people (like in this video) think you should just plow through it and if it breaks it breaks. What do you think of that explanation? I'm going to start tuning other people's pianos soon and have been watching so many tutorials lately lol.
@@MusicalWhiskey From my experience on a pitch raise I lower the pitch fractionally first before raising it. This reveals any corrosion with a click. Haven't broken strings since practicing this, and the cost is very little in terms of time.
I have a vintage player piano made by Conway Boston with an early design simplex player. It has been well used despite the player falling silent about 40 years ago. It's been tuned every 5 to 10 years maybe less. And has only one broken base string. The tuning is transposed lower. 440 is not the A key I was told manufacturers of the day didn't tune them up until a year or more after delivery and it took 6 tunings to bring it up to 440A. Maybe that is BS. I don't know. Either way I'm looking at doing a restoration myself since the piano has been in the family at least 65 years. My mother bought it with a trunk full of scrolls for $20
I don't know if I'm being a jerk and asking a question that may be answered in the last 1/3 of the video - but I was really curious about pitch raising done aurally? I can't afford software, etc. because of how young I am in the business ... I was trained aurally by my family and a couple local local techs and have been pulling as close as I can or a little above for pitch raises (doing the same temperament) and then running through a second time for a fine A440 tuning. I admit, my family always waited a week which I guess was just tradition, it is nice on my shoulder though especially because I keep running into really tight baldwin spinnets around here.
As an aural tuner with over sixty years experience, I can assure you that you can learn to do pitch raises aurally. The end results are accurate and fast, and you don't have to worry about your phone dying. Raise the entire scale by an estimated over-pull using only the unmuted strings. Pull up the unisons by blind over-pulling to match the estimated drop of the tuned scale. Retune the unmuted scale. Unmute the entire piano and retune the unisons. As you progress in learning, you'll be surprised how accurate your blind over-pull becomes.
On the video. He was said that pianos 15 to 20 cents off would need pitch raise. Then he said that for the low notes t He would over shoot 10 cents... and how about the rest? Someone cut his explanation and he never got back to it...
He doesn't know much about guitar tuning.... "there's no stretch"... oh yes there is.... but no, you don't put extra tension on the neck because it will warp it if too much over time... BUT you also need to retension the string if you do that or it will go out .... . but from my experience, which is quite a bit, tuning one string doesn't put another one out,,, that's just because strings relax. I have never tuned a piano, but I don't trust his guitar theory, and extrapolate to his piano
He's comparing an engineer - or doctor - to piano tuner? Brilliant. Well, if a piano tuner "fails" what are the consequences? As opposed to poorly designed bridge......or mishandled surgery. Maybe house painter should require a PhD as well. Sheesh......this is too much.
This video was SO helpful it was nice to see a full pitch raise and not just chopped video. The students asked a lot of the questions that I have as well.
Harmonics of an acoustic piano is what sets them apart from electronic pianos as they cannot quite duplicate that quality
Thanks again guys for all your advice and help stay safe and blessed
I have pitch raised a piano from a half step flat and was able to bring it up without issues. I was lucky though and got the instrument right at 4:40 or even a little past when I was done, not much though.
Thanks. Please make a video about tuning tehnique, how do you release from the excessive tention the segment of the string from agraff to pin, when setting the pitch, if the pin is not tight enough and does not releases that segment of string by back-twisting? Would be wery interesting!
Some pianos in some situations do need another tuning sooner after a large pitch raise - no matter how well the pitch raise and fine tuning were done. That is just the law of physics. This is of course for an optimal state of the tuning and stability.
Having watched the video with all the broken strings - I have learned with pianos like this to not over-pull at all. I just work them up to pitch and let it drop and do a second pass (at pitch) to try and avoid this. However it does happen and I feel your frustration. That is not a sound you want to hear on your last piano of the day.
Also I notice that you are using an up a note then back down a note as you are tuning your unisons, this could have an affect on the tension of the strings on the higher note and may have something to do with the breakage. A chromatic pattern of simply going up to the next note without back-stepping, though harder to work the mutes, might be a safer approach as the tension is moving more evenly as you work up the scale.
If you need an electronic tuner to pitch raise or even tune a piano you have not developed your ear very well. Learn aural tuning first to really train your ear. Tuning a piano with just a computer gives you a very sterile sounding piano. Its the slight fluctuations of the human ear that make the piano sing. That slight difference in temperament is what gives you tone color. Back in the day that is why composers wrote music in certain keys. It gave their music a different flavor. Equal temperament actually kills tone color. Try to alter your temperament to improve the sound of the piano. Many of my university music teachers loved my tunings because of this. Hope this helps somebody.
I agree with you except for the evaluation of Equal Temperament. ET is the standard. All other temperaments are experimental and they sound like it.
@@davidjenson4512 You don't have to deviate very far from ET to change the tone color of certain keys. Most professionals don't even know they just say wow the pianos sounds so much better. Try experimenting and you might find your customers enjoy the difference..
Do you have any examples of way you might alter the temperament? 😮
Where are you located and where can we find details on schooling?
This is really interesting. Subscribed. Thanks for providing good content.
Does the non-correspondence of octaves account for different colors/feels/Affekts of various tonalities ?
But the Affektlehre predates equal temperament...
Muy buen video, saludos desde Argentina!
I had the same problem with my D3, which is a bass unison in my piano. I was pitch raising it, and When I tuned D3, the right string broke on me, so I had to de-tune the bass section for the time I needed to replace D3's Strings
Some doctrines say you tune in strict octaves, and tweak fifths and thirds.
45:00
Im an aural tuner and occasionally get pianos that are more than 100 cents flat. Are you saying that these pianos can be pitch raised in one pass? The only strings I’ve ever broken have been when trying to do a raise in one session. Are these strings breaking due to a string fault or by “overstretching” them?
You basically answered my question later in the video about string/piano integrity but the question still remains about putting a 25% overpull from over 100cents flat...can strings take that much extra tension?
@@justinoneil6971 Even my Cyber Tuner app won’t let me pull a piano up to pitch from 100c flat unless maybe I tamper with its default settings. It’s setting are that way for a reason. It is risky to try to put enough overpull to bring it up from 100c flat. I recommend two pitch raises for anything that starts out at 100c flat. Also, because the tension you place in the first strings does cause the upper end of the piano to go flat (more or less depending on the piano) it’s good to keep an eye on how the pitch changes. You may start out with a 40c flat piano but by the time you are into the high treble all the new tension on previous notes has pulled the high notes 80c flat.
Take it easy not just on the high treble, but also on bass strings around the bridge. Those have a higher tendency to break than other bass strings in my experience.
From what I've learned, most breaks in this instance have to do with the added tension not being evenly distributed along the string do to the string being somewhat corroded onto the bridges or capodastro bar. The instructor in this video brings up the creaking sound he hears when tuning some notes and this (it seems to me) is caused by the string being released from the corrosion. Some people think playing the note very loudly a few strikes after adding a little tension may help break the corrosion. Others say adding some lubrication to the string is the best move. Some people (like in this video) think you should just plow through it and if it breaks it breaks. What do you think of that explanation? I'm going to start tuning other people's pianos soon and have been watching so many tutorials lately lol.
@@MusicalWhiskey From my experience on a pitch raise I lower the pitch fractionally first before raising it. This reveals any corrosion with a click. Haven't broken strings since practicing this, and the cost is very little in terms of time.
I have a vintage player piano made by Conway Boston with an early design simplex player. It has been well used despite the player falling silent about 40 years ago. It's been tuned every 5 to 10 years maybe less. And has only one broken base string. The tuning is transposed lower. 440 is not the A key I was told manufacturers of the day didn't tune them up until a year or more after delivery and it took 6 tunings to bring it up to 440A. Maybe that is BS. I don't know. Either way I'm looking at doing a restoration myself since the piano has been in the family at least 65 years. My mother bought it with a trunk full of scrolls for $20
How come it is unclear if trombone harmonics produce non-exact-multiples ?
I never use machine to raise a pitch. Ear go very much faster than machine and u need to go fast...
I don't know if I'm being a jerk and asking a question that may be answered in the last 1/3 of the video - but I was really curious about pitch raising done aurally? I can't afford software, etc. because of how young I am in the business ... I was trained aurally by my family and a couple local local techs and have been pulling as close as I can or a little above for pitch raises (doing the same temperament) and then running through a second time for a fine A440 tuning. I admit, my family always waited a week which I guess was just tradition, it is nice on my shoulder though especially because I keep running into really tight baldwin spinnets around here.
As an aural tuner with over sixty years experience, I can assure you that you can learn to do pitch raises aurally. The end results are accurate and fast, and you don't have to worry about your phone dying. Raise the entire scale by an estimated over-pull using only the unmuted strings. Pull up the unisons by blind over-pulling to match the estimated drop of the tuned scale. Retune the unmuted scale. Unmute the entire piano and retune the unisons. As you progress in learning, you'll be surprised how accurate your blind over-pull becomes.
The teacher sounds a bit BRAND NEW....
Are you talking about the "harmonics" of the string?
You got it ! Harmonics or partials !
Does anyone know a free software that does calculate pitch raise for each note? The 2 main paid one are like $300
the strings are all affected on by the one next to it on any instrument
On the video. He was said that pianos 15 to 20 cents off would need pitch raise. Then he said that for the low notes t
He would over shoot 10 cents... and how about the rest? Someone cut his explanation and he never got back to it...
22 min 5 sec …. It’s no wonder why sample based digital pianos struggle with sympathetic resonance.
Hard to hear with tuning in the background
Super 👍🏾🇧🇷
It’s a right triangle.
why not show us on your oscilloscope?
They don’t know trig? Send them all home.
I totally agree
Also, trig does not address what he was talking about. Mechanical physics does.
He doesn't know much about guitar tuning.... "there's no stretch"... oh yes there is.... but no, you don't put extra tension on the neck because it will warp it if too much over time... BUT you also need to retension the string if you do that or it will go out .... . but from my experience, which is quite a bit, tuning one string doesn't put another one out,,, that's just because strings relax. I have never tuned a piano, but I don't trust his guitar theory, and extrapolate to his piano
Brilliant information, terrible video. Should not have been recorded with all the background noise. Very distracting.
He's comparing an engineer - or doctor - to piano tuner? Brilliant. Well, if a piano tuner "fails" what are the consequences? As opposed to poorly designed bridge......or mishandled surgery. Maybe house painter should require a PhD as well. Sheesh......this is too much.
Teach your student to project and speak clearly.