Best Diver Under $1000? Christopher Ward Trident Pro 600
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
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I know I took my time with this one, apologies for those who have been asking for it. I didn't want to rush it, considering CW sent me the watch for free. It is a cracker..... assuming you are OK with the looks. Cheers, Jody
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Getting the big sponsorships now :D proud of you
He really deserve it. Always at point and pointing flaws we normally do not see. Even the watch companies can benefit and start making even better watches.
I love the left-right balance used to watch as well as the nearly invisible logo, I think that because that balancing is different, you need that little bit of space somewhere and I think up top is perfect. And just in case it's a problem and is to empty, and there's still that logo there. I think it's perfect.
About time you reviewed Christopher Ward. They are a terrific brand.
I just can't get over the brand name. Everything else is great.
Right now I’m wearing a Christopher Ward Trident 🔱 300 quartz , with the new logo.
This is one of my favorite watches I’ve ever owned.
$390 shipped. Worth every penny.
I'm a fan of CW. Almost pulled my trigger on a CW65 Trident a while ago... One more glass of wine and i would of done it.
wine you pussy
@@eliransabak1447 Yes i know, real men drink beer.
As a wine-drinking man, you ought to know better than to write "would of".
@@impact0r Dumbass writing. I do that sometimes...
@@eliransabak1447 FYI hipsters also like drinking beer... ;)
I think I've indirectly benefited from this review: CW sent round a 'sale' email a couple of weeks ago and I picked up the last of the MkII C60 Trident Pro 600 38mm for just under half price. It is a stunning watch (a few minor differences from the one you review in the video, but certainly not $500 worth of upgrades). The MkII feels every bit the $1000 watch you describe. You weren't joking Jody - this is a hell of a watch for the money.
I love the branding and logo. There are so many with the "normal" setup, so it's ok to have a couple with a bit of a difference.
I really love the trident second hand it’s so beautiful and unique
I'm going start a you tube channel reviewing watches just to get free watches ! I will be a true Scotsmen if I can pull this off, that's being truly frugal ! Cheers!
I've owned a Trident pro 43mm MK2 for 3 years. I get countless comments on it every time I wear it. The feeling of quality you get when you wear is is something I haven't had with a watch costing under 5k. It miles a head of something even such as an Oris or Squale. Mine is the first to have the logo at the 9pm position, and it almost prevented me from buying it, but I'm so glad it didn't because I absolutely love it and can't see me ever getting rid of it, God knows it's gonna last me a life time.
Stealth logos are cool imo
Great video as always, you have one of the best “back catalogue” of videos on youtube! Excellent re-watch value too
The bad font / branding wrecks these. Gives a cheap department store / fashion vibe a la "Michael Kors".
It’s interesting to see how Ward mixes modern with austere in their aesthetic. Simple dial, clean font, but his shine bezel and distinctive second hand flourish. I kinda don’t know what to make of it...
There, you did it, my Trident is on order. The current 50% off sale did not hurt either.
The watch checked all the boxes but I sold my Christopher Ward (like this in black). Had issues with the watch vibrating when wound. I then had issues with customer care. They told me the watch was fine even though it vibrated- that's not normal. You can check some videos (I located one on facebook) showing the vibrating issues.. I would agree it's a nice watch but for the price there were too many issues. I also liked the 5 year warranty. But check the warranty notes. You have to send it back around 2-3 years for service otherwise the warranty is basically voided and the repair is out of pocket.
Another great watch review! I bought the white-dial version and it's everything Jody said: it's a great watch but the lume and logo let down the side a little bit. The lume is weaker than it should be and the logo always makes me think it quarter-to-something at a quick glance but otherwise it's a terrific watch and a great value.
There is a half link at the other strap end . Easy to use it
I bought Certina ds action diver blue dial couple of months ago,and I must say i cant imagine a better diver around 1000$.
Hans Mayer perfect watch 👍🏼 love Certina ⏱
how is the accuracy out of the box end how is the watch overall i am also about to buy one ds action diver or the seiko sbdc053 thinking
@@MrMaramba I bought the old model with eta 2824-2 not with powermatic and it goes with +7 sec/24h.I compared the level of finish with tag heuer aquaracer which is much more expensive and there was no difference, all surfaces are brushed no polish but I think that suits a tool watch. On the other hand the seiko which you are considering buying runs with 6r15 which is also a great movement.i have it in my sarb033 and it runs extremly accurate (+2-3 sec/24h) with very good power reserve of 50+ hours. Both watches are awesome its up to you which look you like more.
IT's a beautiful looking watch
I have exactly the same problem with the bracelet and several of us brought it up with Christopher Ward at the Manchester get together. For some people it works fine, but if your wrist size is in between links then you're either using the clasp fully open or closed depending on how many links you have. A half link would certainly solve that.
I would buy a mido captain day date and 80 hour power reserve
Dick Grantberg The issue with that movement is that it cannot be regulated and serviced the same way a more traditional movement can. That’s a no go for me, for instance. As such, I wouldn’t consider any watch with a Powermatic 80 movement.
Surprised at the comments re current "Christopher Ward". Each to their own but I prefer it to previous abbreviated "Chris". I bought a C5 Malvern on what I call a chain mail (Milanese) bracelet. So far, very happy with it and it's been admired. The downloaded images look white but it's champagne. I actually prefer it to white. Have mentioned this to the company.
Just found out my Trident C60 needs $500 worth of repair. I sent it to CW because it had condensation behind the crystal. I was in the pool but always make sure it's tightened down. I've had it 5 years and 2 years ago I sent it to them because the dial faded. They replaced it at my cost, but I'm told by a jeweler here in TX that the bezel gasket wasn't replaced properly. Now my watch is ruined. Never again. Buying TAG.
It's a great watch, just keep in mind the sometimes lacking quality control. Just check out the Christopher Ward Forum
Certina DS Action Diver. If you don’t need ceramic bezels. I like how aluminum fades
Seems like Steinhart Ocean One represents a better value at almost 1/2 the price. Thoughts?
I've owned several cw watches, they are superb value for money. The finish and qc is comparable to the overpriced swiss stuff.
I wish I still had my mk1 trident
Great review Jody! I would add to the negs, the hour and minutes hands. Shapewise its up to personal preference, but I really dislike that they have "butts"
It is a lovely looking watch. I ordered one 3 weeks ago but sent it back as the bezel rattled and had a lot of slop in the movement. I sent it back to be told it was within their tolerances. Great watch but beware as there seems to be a few quality issues with this new model. previous models I own are excellent.
I have the thin Malvern 2 hander - CW is amazing! One of my favorite brands!
And I like the logo :)
I just ordered the older "vintage" 38mm version of this for $370 from Christopher ward
"to wear other man's name on your wrist" made me smile ) that chamfered edges on the indices are somewhat unique and i like it. You deserved a nice watch.
P. S. at around $1000-1500 price range i wanna suggest Longines Hydroconquest new version. What do you think?
I don’t understand why people are suggesting the longines as an alternative. It’s a plain watch with a generic bracelet and clasp. Same price range, nowhere near the same quality
@@josephcastillo6742 new version of Hydroconquest has become even better, it has a proper milled bracelet to my eye.
For that money? Longines Hydroconquest. Midnight blue please. Or a Squale 1521. This one makes me think of my (greatly appreciated) Phoibos p007...
Reading the “ if it wasn’t for the logo” comments...... Obviously some haven’t seen some of the more luxurious Swiss brands with ridiculously long names. 😉.
Great watch which punches way above its weight and gives the likes of Oris a run for its money.. Tag’s Aquaracer take note on how to do a bracelet.
I got to tell you for me I can get over those couple of nags.... That's a gorgeous watch and I actually really don't mind the way they designed it or where they put their name. Who says all the watches should look exactly the same anyway right?
What’s with all of the complaints about the logo? It is a beautiful, well built watch. I have the Trident Bronze and feel it’s a great watch
I think the Marathon GSAR is the best dive watch for under $1000.
Puzzle piece logo on the dial , name on the back. Everybody is happy.
I'm not sure if someone else has had the same experience as me but:
I think a protruding crystal (like on this watch) is a very bad idea. Some personal "empirical research" has backed up common sense in that protruding crystals are more likely to absorb the impact if you drop a watch and therefore more likely to shatter. My friend dropped his Nighthawk (not even a bad drop) and we were wondering how come it shattered but noticed that the crystal was maybe 0,5-1mm above the bezel which made it more vulnerable. I think it's a better idea to have the crystal flush with the bezel.
Anyone else had similar experiences?
Apart from that, that watch seems to be fantastic value for money! Too bad i'm not a fan of the 9 o' clock CW text.. maybe I'll get over it some day.
Great watch for sure, and CW fit and finish feel more expensiver. I still like my C65 Trident Diver handwind better though, and it's more unexpensiver. I have no problem with the dial branding, and love their slogan--The other world leader with small hands.
the K Grun & Sohne Legatum at €600 will give it a really good run for its money and in my view beat it all ends up available from Toptime.eu sole distributer now
Hmm... I really would like one of these... The embossed logo is really nice actually, subtle. Not sold on the main logo but it's not too offensive either way.. Its good that they've got 2 half n indices though balances it out well.
I'd definitely like to have one in 40mm, the ceramic bezel looks fabulous and they do a blue version now in 40mm too. The bracelet looks great, it makes such a big difference when it comes with a solid bracelet. Can't stand rubbish straps!!
Any way... Good review 👍 How's it been for you over the last few months???
Regarding the logo, it can be difficult to settle for one style,,, I usually change my logo style each year, just for the sake of variety,,, if you are not a very well established brand, I doubt it matters what style you have, as long as one can relate to the brand... If Chris Ward keep changing their logo, one would assume that relating to a specific watch can be done by production run of the logo change in a particular time period.. Maybe in time, each logo change relating to a particular watch will become more collectible. Personally, I would be more interested in the structure of the timepiece, i.e build quality, time keeping, movement reliability over time, along with the company honouring their warranty if required..... In the past, I owned a Chris Ward watch,,, it was well made and lived up to expectations!!
Great video and review. I like my V2 C60... I don't like the new hands, so I will be holding onto my now old Version 2 Trident Pro.
Logo should be at 9 o'clock position but visible and Christopher Ward text should be under 12 o'clock position, centred. Then I'd buy one. Ps, I'm a graphic designer
I like the position of the brand name. Looks very clean. I would buy it.
You have missed out, on comparing it to the Seiko baby marinemaster the sbdc061/063/063
I really like the brand and the watches do look really good. But, it just looks like they’ve had the dial personalised. Drop the Text and just keep the logo. They would we be so much more appealing.
Jody - really like your reviews. As far as a diver than can compete with the Trident at $1k or less what about the NTH Barracuda Vintage Black? It's more of a homage than the Trident but it looks well executed and a good value. It's very difficult to make purchasing decisions without being able to see the watches in person.
The yema superman is good competition
I can't stand CWs since they changed the logo. It looks like a Daniel Wellington or somesuch now. A real shame as they put out some cool models like the moon phase which is a homage to the beautiful one made by Arnold & Son.
I still think a Tag Aquaracer Calibre 5 is still the right balance.
Hello Jody - I bought the 42 mm red bezel Mk 3, and I think it is a nice watch, also a more interesting color-way. I also think that CW is seeking to compete with much more expensive watches in some ways - the new Trident (red) is positioning itself against both the Pelagos and Black Bay Red to some degree. Whether it really does that effectively, dollar-for-dollar but at a much less expensive price point, would be interesting to debate.
Regardless, I think that CW is surely trying to upstage watches that are only a little more expensive, but arguably at a similar place on the quality curve. Both the Oris Aquis and Sinn 104 are several hundred dollars more expensive. But does the CW beat either of those, either on value or in absolute terms?
I have an Aquis, and I’m flirting with picking up the Sinn. I can’t speak to the latter, but in a head-to-head between the Trident and the Aquis, the Trident wins in some respects and loses in others. Jody, would be interesting if you could do some of those comparisons- how do you feel about the Trident, vs. the Sinn 104 you reviewed last year?
Hey mate! I think the CW is half the price of the Sinn and about half the price of the Oris? I'll try and compare it to the Oris at some point though. Cheers!
A Tissot seastar 1000 is a better watch for the money and time investment
I just can't get past thinking of the Space Invaders sprites every time I see that logo.
I don't mind a logo at the 9 position, I do mind how large it is at the 9 position. It is almost objectively unbalanced. It would look a lot better if they had just a CW logo there instead of their current one. They listened to their customers on the 40mm size and it's selling well and now they should listen about the logo and they'll sell even better.
one nice watch... really like on my to get list..... the blue one for me cheers
I have the mk2 version and it is one of my favorites. I find the new minute hand a bit off and agree with the critiques of the branding. Great video.
A keeper you say... ha.. I guess you had to flip it, as you can't keep all the watches. I'm curious, when you do flip, for practical reasons, do you miss them, or is it onto the next? And/or do you make a mental note to rebut some day, after you experience some more "just one more watches"?.
Nice review, as usual.
I have rebought a few! Straton Speciale, Oris 65 (multiple times), Zelos Mako 2, Casio Dw5600......
Do you still have this "keeper" CW ? If you have, what you think of it now ?
With a 60 day no quibble return policy you certainly wont be "taking a punt". Dont like it? send it back. (CW will even pay your postage) simple! I have tried really hard to like CW, but the 2 I tried I flipped shortly after buying them (resale isn't great either). Didn't speak to me, the logo position ended up irritating me, and I tired of them fairly quickly.
If (when) the 40mm arrives in blue I’m going to find it very hard to resist.
I don’t want to like this watch but I do. Wearing another man’s name on the watch doesn’t bother me. I don’t understand that argument. Jaquet Droz? Girard Perregaux?…
I agree with Neg 3. I have a C8 Flyer from a few years ago and it had the previous CW logo, it was much better. This new horrible font looks cheap
CW under the 12 would've been perfect on the dial
If you sign up for their newsletter , there’s usually a code given out often that makes this $785 shipped !
Thumbs up so hopefully your comment goes near the top. Don't buy C.W. without a coupon.
Thank you. I hope others see this.
How often do they send these out ?
Which is exactly the price of a longines hyrdo conquest in any color way you want. Brand new with warranty. I'd take the longines diver for the$785 personally thank you. But hey, to each their own i guess, lol.
@@jasongennero2925 Could you kindly provide a link? I heard of the brand, I can't remember if it is owned by Richmont of Swatch group.
It appears that I’m in the minority, but I actually like the 9 o’clock placement of the branding
same, you directly see it's a CW, which is a good thing. I think people are going to like it more in the future.
I like it too. I’ve never thought the previous branding was very strong.
Glashütte brands at 9oclock, but that font is really really cheap
40 and 20 approved logo, for sure!
The old branding looks really dated. I cant see how people keep saying it was better?!
I have the C60 COSC Trident and the C65 GMT. Christopher Ward watches are excellent.
My C60 COSC is in the post, I went for it over an oris aquis or a second hand Tudor peglagos. Think I made the right decision?
I do. I’m a big fan of the Oris as well and I also considered a Tudor but the value of the CW is unmistakable. Hope u like the watch. My Trident COSC is my daily wear.
@@robertdconner I was really tempted by the oris, but the idea of being tied into oris only straps has put me off. Just waiting for my dispatch email!
I have the C60 Trident Acan COSC day/date and it's a beautiful thing, the quality is outstanding....
They should use CW as their logo.
I absolutely HATE the "Christopher Ward" billboard on the dial.
@Brenton Edwards same with the Hamilton Jazzmaster Viewmatic open heart. Beautiful timepiece, but branding has no elegance. Even the font and size choice are just damn uninspiring. Even undergraduate multimedia arts students can create so much better than these brands did. I can't believe they can't even find or pay someone with expertise/taste/style in design and branding. These lazy branding designs make me puke. Too bad since the timepiece themselves are really good.
Thanks for representing a lot of us who feel the same way! It doesnt have the same appeal as "Patek Philippe" just not a cool name and my name is Christopher myself 🤣
It’s grown on me. I HATED it. Now I really like it.
@Brenton Edwards It's gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it is gay, and gay isn't my thing.
Same. I'd literally never buy one JUST because of it. It looks so tacky
Great looking and cool watch. Though "Christopher Ward" is a decidedly uncool name for a brand.
Agreed
“Christopher Ward” is better than their previous attempts at branding: Chris Ward, ChrWard, C Ward (aka C word aka see you next Tuesday)
Great watches, awful name
Yeah, CW or just Ward would be preferable
@@Mister_Phafanapolis see u next tuesday 😂
Got a C65 classic...can't fault it, excellent quality & value. I'm saving for another model (& hinting to the Mrs as its my birthday in September... so I'll casually leave my pad laying around with this review "half watched" 😉) Cheers mate 👍👍⌚👍👍
I think you are one of the most genuine reviewers in the industry and few have your integrity and enthusiasm.
Excellent review, I’ve considered CW several times, but yet to pull the trigger. Would love to see a change to the logo. I absolutely love the hands.
Hell no! My Oris was 2 grand and I only got a 2 year warranty! I only got an extra year because I registered it on the Oris website. 5 years is unheard of and amazing.
The '"Christopher Ward" on the dial of almost all their watches, in terms of positioning, font and presence, is what turns me off the brand. Looks so amateurish. Change it to "CW" and give it a spiffy logo that doesn't look like a QR code and that would fix the problem.
Completely agree. Please change the font.
They did. Eventually
@@JustOneMoreWatch You go back and read old comments in your spare time?
I like how the dial is designed. Totally balanced in my eyes. There is something at 3, 6, 9 and 12 and the logo is not too much in your face. Minimalist approach. If you look closely
the logo is the Swiss flag followed by the English flag.
Looks like a classy timepiece, I’m tempted. Great review btw.
Thanks Robert! Very solid watch that has become a bit of a benchmark for me now. If you like the look, and the branding, then go for it!
C Ward is absolutely killing it. They're a bit spend for our 40 and 20 fans, but definitely in the ballpark for someone looking to go first luxury waych. I don't think anyone gets close to the value for the money!
Ordered one a few hours ago, will hopefully be here on Wednesday. Ordered the 42mm in red bezel 😍
I have 2 CW Trident Pro (Mark II) myself and I have gotten plenty of compliments off them. CW is grossly underrated and congrats on your first CW! Am looking at one of the Trident GMT model.. still thinking over if I should pull the trigger. Keep up the great Vlogs 👍
I had the 38mm MK2 version and like this one more. More modern design. I even like the logo design now they have added the flags at 12 (the C65 GMT I now have has an embossed logo which works even better). Christoper Ward make excellent watches.
While a nice piece of engineering, the 600 meter certification is completely overkill and makes the watch unnecessarily thick. People with an open water certification dive no more than 20 meters. It starts to get pretty dark after that. An advanced open water certification will get you to 30 meters. A 100 meter watch is more than is really necessary and would slim down the watch. Most people buying the watch probably don't dive anyway.
Cracking review. I can confirm what Rikki said about the bezel research, as CW himself told us at The a Edinburgh meet a few weeks before launch. He referenced the Rolex Submariner as having the best action and sound, so that’s what they aimed for. Such a shame they’re getting a lot of bad QC and customer service issues just now, as they do produce great watches, which punch well above their weight.
Just bought one yesterday went for 40mm black. Thanks for the advice.
How come no one is complaining about Patek Philippe? After all there are 2 guys name on that watch dial (Antoni Patek and Adrien Philippe)
C/ward make great quality watches , I own 4 and every one is superb, the C60 range are unbeatable value, I have the limited edition ombré model cosc certified and it is as well made if not better than a lot of the so called luxury brands at twice the price, brilliant company and excellent value for money, for example the tag aquaracer is twice the price and doesn’t come close to the C60 in build quality, I owned and sold my tag caliber 5 when I bought my C60 ombré, i own a Tudor bb which in my opinion is the best watch in the world for the price and it’s not far off that quality ! That’s how good it is
Appreciate the "Ministry of Silly Walks" shirt :D
Christopher Ward seems like a great brand at the price point... 60 month warranty on the movement! The finishing reminds me of what you find on most Tudors. I particularly like the C65 blue dial Dartmouth Series. Looks a lot like a Seamaster 300.
The cases are made in same place as tudor
I have had a C60 Trident Pro COSC ltd ed. for five years and it is still my favourite watch. They are superb value for money. It has the date window at just after 20 past, which is unbalanced and I love it :)
Chr Ward have excellent after sales service, which I had to use due to an issue with the movement. They sorted it out very quickly, no questions asked, paid for all postage (I live outside the UK) and gifted me a beautiful leather strap for the inconvenience. That’s why I bought another of their watches. Recommended.
Longines Hydroconquest ie around the same price grey market with a similar aesthetic.
The new Hydroconquest looks much better than the old, dial is less busy. This CW is lacking in terms of the movement compared to Longines, Mido, Certina or even Seikos around $1000 with the 6r15. SW-200 just isn't worth $1000, you can find it in watches for around $400.
I agree - I have the Longines HydroConquest, and I got mine for $800 USD. At that price, I think it’s a better bargain, even though I have the older model with the aluminum bezel.
I also have a Revue Thommen with the Planet Ocean type hands that is right now my favorite watch - I think it’s a screaming bargain at around $400 USD, but at 45mm diameter and 52mm lug to lug, you need at least a 7.25” to pull it off.
What about the Oceaneva that you just reviewed, Jody? Wasn’t that one of the best watches for under $1000 too?
@@mrand3r50n3 the sw-200 Is much better than the overrated 6r15 in my experience. I have 3 CWs with this movement. They run from +1.2 to -4.5 spd, beat at 28800 bph and have been quite reliable over 18 months. In contrast, the 6r15 beats at 21600 bph, suffers terribly from positional variation And mine is running at -60 spd after 15 months. Yes, it's obviously faulty, but in general from what I've read, the 6r15 does seem to be hit or miss.
MrAnd3r50n I've a SARB033 that I like, but would never say 6r15 is better than a SW200. Not even close.
Tempting ... but at approx 1,000 dollars (for me in my shopping preferences) the real competition is an Oris Aquis on sale or via one of the NYC gray market websites for $ 900-$1200 new. The warranty is very impressive and look is very clean. I would see it being a contender at 500-600 but at $1000 that's another level. The spelled out name bothers me but as you said it's part of the package. Honestly, full name logo aside it's one of the most attractive and sleekly designed watches you've ever featured.
If I'm stroking a check or pressing a key for $1,000 I want a watch with some heft behind the name. I like the watch design-wise and the warranty is great, but I'm not coughing up $1000 for it.
It's not $1000, It's $900 retail and with sales you have have it around $800 or less. For the value I've yet to find another watch that can match a CW in quality/fit/finish... or even come close. The timepieces are amazing. I just don't fancy the design and that's the only thing keeping me from buying one. Being compared to Oris is truly flattering, so CW has come a long way. Oris is the gold standard when it comes to $1000 watches but I see CW as the microbrand to beat. Just try out one of their watches (you have 60 days to return it for free, they even pay for shipping) and see for yourself.
Nice looking watch, super sharp! My favourite C. Ward though is the C65 Trident GMT, it's pretty much perfect in every way in my opinion. Can't be beat for around a grand!
Is it just me or does the 12:00 indicator on the bezel not quite line up with the dial? (12:13) Maybe it’s just my eyes.
3’30 of rumbling before we actually see the watch.
Had mine a few years. The watch is absolutely outstanding, and the best watch in my collection. That said, I don't own anything more expensive. The previous logo was far nicer though, and I don't know why they changed it.
I've enjoyed the c60 and c65 cw's. This c60 mk3 is the best. The case is really nicely done and the bracelet's quick attach/removal and easy micro adjust has not been an issue. May be the best sub $1k modern diver. The logo does not bother me at all. I'm just waiting for more colors.. i would love the new white dial black bezel option they have on the 42mm version in the 40mm as well.
Great review. I see lots of comments sugesting the Longines Hydroconquest as a contender. I was expecting many people suggesting Steinhart as well. I've never held one in my hands, but my impression is that they are (also) very well built and finnished. Care to give your view on how the Steinhart stack up againts the CW?
Hi Jody
I looked at one of these a couple of years ago when it had a CW logo at the 12. Didn't buy it at the time and then missed my chance as they changed the logo position and used that school font!!
Spent my money on a Steinhart ocean titanium 500 and I think I got a better watch for £550.
If you get a chance take a look at the steinhart range I'd be interested to hear your opinions. 🤔
Great videos keep on watching the watches. 😎
Foxpoo
Just got my trident pro 600 and at least now I can confirm half links are in the bracelet. So that is another improvement they made to the watch!
The logo is cringeworthy, so uncool. For a brand that puts in so much effort and research into their product to have such a logo is pathetic, there really is no other word. Just put their initials with that logo they already have in the background with the cross and four squares. C. W. No need to spell out his full name it’s not a tombstone for f#cks sake....