The PROBLEM with a Thumb Safety on a Pistol
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- Опубліковано 19 лют 2019
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Idk,I think it's pretty simple. If you can train to clear garments,get a sight picture and clear the shot,you can train to add the safety in as well.
How about a revolver? If you could CCW a revolver that HAD A SAFETY LEVER would you choose that?
@@BigFiveJackbuddy there’s a big difference between a long DA trigger pull that’s 8-11 lbs Vs a pre-cocked striker gun that breaks at 5 lbs.
@@BigFiveJack A revolver is "not" an automatic. Apples and oranges !
@@JamesReedy And add the fact many clowns are carrying guns with 2 to 3lb triggers because they can't hit anything with a 5lb stock trigger. They're basically carrying a 1911 without a manual safety for all intents and purposes.
@@UrbanDefenseSystemstrue that. I’ve spent nearly my whole life around guns and I still take pause every day when I jam a pistol down my pants. I mean I love my dick and all but let’s be real. Your pistol goes off seated your dick is the least of your worries; you’re prob gonna bleed out.
For this reason I carry appendix with a gun that has a manual safety and a trigger with a normal pull weight. I’ve got an atlas that’s down at 1.75 lbs, back strap safety is pinned/blended and so your only safety is the thumb safety. You couldn’t pay me to ccw that. It’s a beautiful gun but the wrong tool for that job.
Buying a SW 500 for my unborn daughter, I'll just use it in the meantime
The wife will buy that excuse im sure!
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
😂😂👏👏
Forward thinker right here ;)
You'll love the recoil!
Keep your house always unlocked so that you can quickly run away when there is a fire without forgetting to unlock your door first.
🤣🤣🤣
Genius response
It’s called muscle memory. The 1911 style safety cocked and locked is so easy and so second nature if you do a modicum of training there is really no issue. My thumb is on the safety as I draw the gun. Hopefully my situational awareness has kept me from complete surprise. I have been in areas where I’ve had my gun in hand, thumb on the safety ready to rock if necessary. Practice folks, that’s all it takes.
The point still remains, Thumb safeties do nothing except add another step. Not worth it.
@@johnimmenschuh222 I want something better than a p320 that fires on its own
The muscle memory is just like using the safety selector on your AR.
@@aaabbb-py5xd take a random fluke gun that was quickly fixed. Buy a better pistol and that's not an issue. Your brain, finger, training, trigger, and internals are all the other safeties you can use and you want to add a useless switch. Do what you want I guess.
@@ameliamccombs4313 an AR-15 has a completely different set of uses, you also don't holster your AR-15 on your belt.
You talked about people showing up with a weapon with a thumb safety and then having problems. My belief is that if you are going to carry, then you need to train so much it almost becomes muscle memory. Safety or no safety, train.
i completly agree
Nice way to start a heated debate. I agree with each of your points in principle but the reality is most gun owners are not "runners and gunners" (I'm not even including the crowd that THINK they are). Full disclose... my IMT days are behind me. Unfortunately, most gun owners can't (that's won't with a side order of excuses) train to a level where they trust themselves and their gun. Then there's the comfort zone. Ever try to convince someone who spent their entire driving life with a manual transmission of the safety and efficiency advantages of an automatic? The issue is effective training not gun design. You're right, an internal safety gun used by a properly trained shooter is as safe and less likely to encounter an "oops" than its ancestor. The issue is training. Here's the real question... if you need back up, do you chose a person based on their gun or their training? BTW, I carry a gun assembled in Smyrna GA too.
No almost about it. Train it into muscle memory. There's a reason god created snap caps.
Let me start off by saying I love love love love love the 1911. To this day I still believe that it is the absolute finest piece of engineering and craftsmanship ever developed. I've been running a 1911 since 1993, and yes I have trained the safety into muscle memory. More than that, I built it into my grip. So, yeah it can be done but why? For CC, why would you ever start off with a tool that handicaps you by requireing more training to use in stressful ? When literally everything around you is going to crap, when life and death are separated by fractions of a second, why wouldn't you choose the easiest, simplest tool to use?
How many people who are anti-thumb safety remove the safety from their AR-15’s?
Old 1911 guy here. Even when I draw a Glock my thumb pushes down the non existent safety ;-)
Holsters are not always possible for lots of people because of their work attire. Not everyone has a holster option for many different reasons. If I was seen to carry at work, I would be terminated immediately. This is why I only carry DA revolvers or DA pistols. The DA trigger is the safety. When you pull the trigger, it goes bang. Yeah the first trigger pull is harder, but I guarantee you won't be able to tell in a stressful situation. Sorry all you Glock people, but in my humble opinion, DA guns are my choice for carry.
Mine to
Young 1911 guy I had mine for one year I can't pick up any gun the same
Yes, I have been building the M1911-A1 for years. I think it’s a matter of training and knowledge, muscle memory.
I grew up with UA-cam so _everything_ I saw & learned was a thumbs forward grip. Placing my thumbs _anywhere else_ is so awkward I don’t see how I could avoid the safety.
I never fired 1911s. I had fired PKMs before I even picked up a 1911. I had more trouble riding the slide release on a P30, PPQ, etc. Then I finally fired a 1911 and it fit like a glove.
You can’t compare a 1911 style frame mounted safety to, say, an M9’s slide safety _(first firearm I ever fired)_ I don’t like slide safeties.
Also, if you’re ever going to use an AR, AK, _anything,_ then you’re going to be actuating a safety every time you bring your sights on/off target - regardless of how different those safeties are.
I have a friend who is a former SAS soldier. We had this exact discussion recently. His argument in favor of a thumb safety is that if someone is able to get his gun out of his holster or wrestle it off him in all the chaos there is a good chance that they will not turn the safety off and will have a dead trigger. This may only give him 1/2 second before they figure it out but he thinks that would make a big difference. Where a glock for example all they have to do is pull the trigger...
And this is EXACTLY why I prefer a thumb safety 👍
If someone takes your gun from you then you have way bigger problems and it's funny to think a safety will save you.
@@MomoAfterDarkthere’s an infinite amount of circumstances that can go down in a gun fight. I’ve seen a domestic where the bimbo girlfriend couldn’t figure out the safety on her man’s gun
@@Antman_9602 facts but I said what I said. I don’t wanna rely on someone else’s lack of knowledge if my life is on the line.
@@MomoAfterDark you have way bigger problems than what? Getting shot? Wtf did that even mean?
I served in Iraq and battles started instantly. I was trained to manage the manual safety. This is a required safety for me and my son.
If anyone is inept as describe in video they should not be carrying. ;
Funny, I served lots a places and now I only use safeties when competitions require it; otherwise, my trigger finger is my safety. I've never had an AD because I know the safety is not on, if it has one, and I clear any weapon I touch or assume it's loaded. I've been around many AD's in Military, Law Enforcement, and at the shooting ranges/competitions, and every time the next thing you hear is, "I thought the safety was on!". Included well trained service members and law enforcement.
@@andycole5957 you are long winded
Obviously they weren't trained very well to have a ND like that. (pointed where...willing to destroy) @@andycole5957
@@bailey9r you know, if you're insecure, you could just say it. It's a safety. It has nothing to do with being inept. Some people just prefer to have extra measures available.
In a related story, keeping a gun in a holster slows down reaction-time. For true efficiency, keep your gun in your hand at all times...
Even that is to slow, just point guns at everyone at all times. Why risk someone else having a gun out all ready. I mean like he said it's about time saving.
@@lastmelon952 still too slow, not only point but have your finger on the trigger and ready to break through the wall.
Lol, still too slow, just shoot at everyone you see.
Well, that escalated slowly....
@@mattcarroll5603 am I late?
If you train regularly with a safety it would be come muscle memory to depress it upon drawing it. With my 1911 when firing I rest my thumb on the safety.
Same, safety comes down in the draw and I fire with thumb over the safety.
@@Eradicator9000 exactly
Resting on the job huh? Lol
Yes. With training, you can operate a thumb safety just fine. And if you like, or have no want to replace your 1911, i get it. But i decided to only use a firm holster, not a nylon Uncle Mike's. Once i decided on that, i saw the thumb safety as an unnecessary action. Then you can be the cool guy from blackhawk down. Just point your finger and say, "this is my safety." Then shoot a hog and feed all your friends.
Yes and that’s the same thing they do with their AR-15s - it becomes part of the manual of arms - but somehow it’s too difficult with a pistol 🤷♂️
I have two pistols with safetys. I later bought a Sig without it, but eventually added one. Besides having grandkids, if I'm going to be locked and loaded I simply prefer one. I also plan to take them to the range. In the real world i'm more afraid of an accidental discharge with consequences. Chances are as good or better that I will never have to use the firearm for self defense, and the best gun is the one you never have to use.
You've seen it in training by people who don't practice their draw which is why training is so important. The guys who are great with their manual safeties are great with them because they train their draw to the point that it's muscle memory.
I used to carry an M17 and all it took was training my draw. My thumb naturally bumped down the safety as part of the technique. I never thought about it, it just happened because that's how I trained my draw.
Regardless of safety preferences, you need to practice your draw.
Isn’t it the same muscle memory as presenting an AR and deactivating/ activating the safety switch?
The difference with an AR is that it is carried on a sling in an open environment.The trigger unlike w holstered pistol could be unintentionally manipulated if not for the external safety.
Walmart wont let me shop with my AR15 so that concealed pistol with have to do...
@@goodcleanfun1640 True but it is also true that, hypothetically, an AR safety could be unintentionally manipulated. John's point, however, is that you may forget to remove the safety on a pistol under stress. If this is so, isn't it also true that you could forget to disengage the safety on an AR under stress, especially if you have extensive training deploying a pistol with no manual safety? You have trained yourself not to remove a safety.
I would suspect the situation to be different from deploying a concealed carry weapon and and AR-15.
When a situation appears with the concealed weapon you are clearing the obstacles pulling and firing. I would expect this to be more of a surprise scenario.
With the AR-15 if you happen to be walking around and it is a surprise scenario a few things can happen:
1) Held on back, you are a target and the chance of getting it off your back and pointed at the target are slim.
2) front sling (pointed down of course) with hands off the rifle. You are a target still and and get the rifle up and ready to shoot will be difficult in high stress situations.
3) front sling (pointed down of course) with hand on the rifle grip. This is the most diligent scenario and will give you the best chance to survive.
Open carry puts you at more of a disadvantage and it is difficult to compare the situations. The muscle memory is not the same for rifles and handguns from my experience because the use situation is more dissimilar than similar. I know you can find situations where they will be more similar, and I would suspect these situations will give you more time to think as well.
It's a very similar action from my experience. Back when I was in the service the training I received on the M-4 carbine seemed to transfer over to 1911's beautifully. I'd raise the 1911 to fire and automatically swipe the safety to the fire position just as i would on the M-4. That being said running any pistol with a manual safety requires a LOT of training and practice to stay competent.
I am judging you for owning a Kimber.
It was too shiny... I'm guessing borrowed from a display case, or owned by someone who never shoots it anyway ;)
It's not a Kimber....
It's a tool for training malfunction drills. Can train with live ammo. Will not fire, guaranteed.
Lose that nickel plated sissy pistol....ua-cam.com/video/ALveW3PVGkE/v-deo.html
It goes with his Prius.
I used to think about getting a kimber, but then i started hearing lots of bad things about them. Now im thinking maybe a Ruger SR 1911? What 1911 would yall recommend?
As always I respect your opinion. In my opinion, the striker fired pistols are unsafe without a safety. If anything at all gets in that trigger guard there is a chance for an accidental discharge. I prefer hammer fired weapons that are DAO or have a manual safety. Disengaging the manual safety is natural with a practiced presentation and does not slow down the process. In the end, it's to each his own. Main issue is train with what ever you have decided to carry.
I agree. I recently got a p365 with manual safety and it was cheaper also. I never gave my hammer fired a second thought putting it in my pocket with the safety off, I only used it for a decocker. I would never do that with 1 in the chamber on a stricker fired gun.
I think it gets down to the individual. Some folks have really, really good skills. The average Joe? We can't all put out 5000 rounds a month at tactical ranges, and 3x figure that in dry fire training. The standard (SOF) John and Mike Jones have set is a great standard to aspire to, but realistically, "normal" people lack either the time or resources to practice that much (particularly when "practice" entails TAC training). For the average, occasional shooter, a safety can make a lot of sense. Since I came from the world of hammer fired handguns, even though it grates on my 30-something son, I'm gonna take extra safety measures. Maybe carry with an empty chamber P320XC, maybe a safety (P365), but I'll train with what I carry, in the same condition.
The only thing I don't like is the fact there no De cocker with manual safety. I feel my finger will slip trying to drop that hammer to get one ready in the chamber
100%a fact if you pull out a weapon and forget the safety is on... someone shouldn't have gave you that weapon lack of training all that boils down to and if you do not constantly train with your firearm dry fire drills and such even at home. Then you should not be walking around with any firearm especially one without a safety. Gonna shoot before it's out the holster and have a hole in yourself
You’re all wrong. Glock is the best. Fuck that old single action junk
As a mother who carries both my pistol and my son, I would much rather train with a safety than take extra risks.
That makes zero sense.
that means you need more training
@@DirtyCiv 1000000%
Risk is a tricky thing to define. A modern pistol in a proper holster has almost no risk of accidental discharge. What "extra risks" are you referring to?
The irony...
1911 guy here, the term "ride the safety " exists in our world. Train it, live it!
Yes
Key word train.
Yup
Yep training
I ride the safety even on my glock
Right before watching this video I watched one where John is standing with some instructors talking about reloading and advocating for the slide release reload and dispelling the idea that using that lever is a "fine motor skill" in a stressful situation. Then the next video i see he's basically saying not to have a slide safety because it's a fine motor skill in a stressful situation. Train hard, train smart, know YOUR firearm.
I would argue safety, although not much of a "fine" motor skill, does differentiate from the the slide stop issue, bc it is so critically important in the initial couple seconds of engagement; in comparison to after having expended an entire magazine. I guess I'm saying the uh-oh is much worse if the safety is still engaged, which is the basis of JL's whole viewpoint. Simplifying the uncomplicated, bc someone (me) will always manage to screw it up somehow.
I see your point though and its irony.
Well this video is for beginner shooters, who usually aren’t training hard, so
Exactly. It’s the same fucking motion. 🤷🏻♂️
@@isaiahmarquez9717 At two completely fucking different points in a high-stress confrontation. Hell, there may not even be a need to reload depending on shot placement and magazine capacity. Take your wannabe gun expert bullshit elsewhere.
One assumes you’ve already been putting rounds on target (reload w/ slide release) whereas his point here is this screw up by a beginner can preclude that reload from being needed because you blew your counter ambush and took the room temp challenge because you missed the safety. I was raised and taught never to engage a safety unless a single action pistol carried condition 1, cocked and locked, and if you were going to carry a 1911 you practiced cocked n locked and rode the safety, and used the proper holster. Newer shooters, high stress, people who don’t have mechanical prowess should avoid thumb safety... and go double action revolver
I would have never expected this from you. I would have expected more along the lines of “if that is your preferred pistol, train, train, train with the safety” or “you can always carry your gun with an external safety with the safety off”
But what do I know, I have only trained about 15,000
Military service members all over the world
@@ostiaman5811 wow! The military has never been about freedumb. It’s about control by implementing a debt based system. Out with old in with new. World order. Thank you for your “service”.
@@ostiaman5811 you served Israel dipshit
Agreed. I carried 1911 for 3 decades. Never had one single problem with the safety. But then again, I was not common core 'educated'.
WAIT! Depending on the firearm, you cannot "just carry with the safety off". 1911 style trigger systems have no passive safety, other than maybe a grip safety. This means that nothing is there to stop the hammer if it is released without the trigger being pulled. It is extremely rare, but a 1911 CAN fire from being dropped or even sat on wrong! As for military use: gun battles may start "immediately", but they don't start within arms reach, like most self defense shootings out in public. I agree though, that extensive training, and especially IDPA competing will work just fine; however, if you have THAT much training and experience, than this video isn't for you.
I started carrying a 1911 in 1969. Trained hard and used it hard. To this day when I present a 1911 my thumb goes to the safety as I draw and remains on the disengaged safety as I shoot. I am 75 years old and it is still second nature for me. I follow you and those of us that do know you don’t like the 1911, but don’t rag it down to those of us that are proficient with. I’d like to see you shoot against Rob L. With what ever you want to use.
same here but I use the Berreta 92F but the same concept. plus as I have said many many times, I prefer to have the manual safety and don't use it (if that is what you want) than want to use it but don't have it, if you don't want the manual safety but the gun has one simple don't used. 😁
You've convinced me that I NEED a manual safety and that also need to train to automatically switch off the safety as part of the procedure of drawing the pistol from a holster.
Good call. A manual safety doesn't have to be used, but it's always a nice option to have. Circumstances can be different, but his opinion is just that and if you read the comments, a lot of us disagree.
I run Sig P229 SAO out of appendix holster (Tier 1). Safety is off on my down stroke as part of the purchase. Then I draw and only finger the trigger once front sight is covering target. Safety is for carrying, imo. Hot is for fighting.
Pierce, I agree with you. I've been through army infantry school in the age of the M9, as well as a Sheriffs deputy. I've ALWAYS been trained to sweep the safety off of every weapon. I've never forgotten to take any weapon off safety, but then again, I've trained to do it so its second nature. My Dad also taught me to hunt with a safety on, and when I see an animal to shoot, take it off safe. Pretty simple.
For some reason we now have a crop of shooters who can't be trained to sweep off a safety, or they're too stupid to do so.
A double action or anti stress trigger can be a great choice the walther p99 is a great example
@@Utubesuperstar The Walther p99 is too large for conceal carry for my use. I'm trying to buy a Sig Sauer P365 with a manual safety.
I carried the Beretta M9 in the military and honestly I cant even fathom forgetting to flip the safety off, even in a stressful situation. It's just part of the action of pulling the gun out of the holster. When your hand goes to grip that gun you're already getting ready to flip it off safe. By the time the barrel is pointed downrange your safety is already off. If you're going to forget to sweep the safety, what else are you going to forget? You gonna forget to pull the trigger? you gonna forget how to aim too? come on, dude.
my thoughts EXACTLY!! its all how you train!
Agree, I’m used to a thumb safety. I carry with a round in the chamber and prefer to have the thumb safety. My thumb automatically clicks safety off as I take my grip. Decades of muscle memory I suppose, I still “reach” for the safety when I shoot my Glocks
Maybe forget your pants. I like your response, as a 63 year old woman who just bought her first gun, your opinion makes perfect sense. As Collion Noir said in a video, "I always thought my gun would just go off because it was bored!"
Agreed somewhat but keep in mind not everyone trains under stress like they should and for the most part John was talking about new concealed carriers. He didn't say you couldn't carry an m9 or 1911.
I was thinking the same thing. I've had my Colt since 1982. I've always made flipping the safety part of the action. I was shooting a glock a few weeks back, I flipped the thumb safety on that even though there isn't one. LOL!
I see the value of the newer guns though!
If you can't train deactivating the safety while drawing, that's on you. If that extra 1/20th of a second means the difference between drawing on time or being too late, you weren't paying enough attention to the situation and surroundings around you.
Nothing wrong with a safety, everyone can train with it
If you are deactivating the safety during the draw there is no time lost, it still takes the same amount of time to bring the gun up to eye level regardless of whether you are manipulating a manual safety or not.
The idea it takes extra time is only for the untrained or improperly trained.
Exactly. Sometimes I think these non-safety people would go hunting with a round chambered in there deer rifle and safety off. Makes it 'faster' that way? So dumb.
I think you miss the point. You are right, anyone CAN train and regularly practice to proficiently use a safety; however, it seems like most people just want to buy something thinking that just carrying it will make them safe and they don't train at all. If you train, and especially compete with a safety then you are beyond the scope of this video. Of course I think everyone SHOULD train regularly with their carry gun(s), but with a proper holster there is actually no safety provided by the "safety". The point is that you are training to defeat a system that doesn't provide any actual value.
I love your videos and do agree with you that holsters, trigger and internal safeties do safeguard the carrier. But there is still something about a new gun owner not fully trusting their weapon when they first start. Chances are a lot of new gun carriers aren't getting a lot of experience before carrying. Also, think of it this way, yes an external safety could possibly slow them down, but think how much of a better chance they've given themselves by arming themselves in the first place. A lot of people have gone to concealed carry due to how crazy things have gotten. Not all are enthusiasts and are doing this out of necessity. I'm good with an external safety if it helps those people handle their weapon more safely until they can become more in tune with it.
I agree about the new gun owner confidence. I still use a G-19 because I want the mechanics of operation to be simple, but to mitigate, caring un-chambered was how I dealt with ny confidence issue at first. As maturity to concealed carry grew and experience with a cocked trigger not mysteriously de-cocking on an empty chamber, move to chambered round on carry.
guns should never be trusted do you know the 4 rules of gun safety? are YOU new? Guns should always be handles as mechanical devices that can fail.
I agree with John, always have. Every AD I've ever been around was immediately followed by, "I thought the safety was on!" The biggest safety problem with safeties is NEW shooters who don't always remember to put the safety back on. External safety carry really is an advanced practice only for those that actually train regularly with it. There is another problem, if you pull out a gun in defense and fail, then you may have just armed the attacker and quite probably given them the gun that is then used to murder you! New shooters should get a good holster and trust that if they pull the boom lever it will ALWAYS go off.
It's all in training and muscle memory. Since I was 11 it was in my training. You get use to it and don't think twice about it.
Meh, I'm a bit older and grew up with safety's on handguns so overall it doesn't bother me because i have muscle memory with and without a safety.
Ok while I agree with 90% of this, I have to say that for some of us the training we got myself in particular was with the berreta m9 which has an external thumb safety, is that when you draw, you sweep the safety. Those who were trained with the 1911, or m9 can attest that a secondary safety is always a better option. Sometimes all you have to do is draw, and the confrontation is ended immediately. However there is always the chance that just drawing is not enough, thus those of us who have had military training or police training with the 1911 or m9 were instructed to sweep the safety when drawing. I carry a striker fired pistol as my edc, I chose to get the thumb switch safety because that's what I was trained to use. Its 2nd nature for me. 1. Draw 2. Sweep the safety 3. Fire if necessary 4. Continue firing until threat is no longer present.
Stating that a thumb safety is not needed especially when strikers go off at random ( multiple examples of it on youtube) is leading people into false comfort or complacency. I agree the holster is #1 safety measure if you carry in your pocket or waistband with no holster I pray for you, 2nd the butterfly safety i.e trigger safety is great for child safety, however an inexperienced shooter may not be able to move that detent properly in a stressed situation causing a no fire situation and may cost that person their life. While a thumb sweep that is done while drawing will not fail unless you miss the thumb sweep. 🤷♂️ I'm just saying as a veteran the thumb sweep always works.
You are completely right, except you seem to have missed one point. This video was targeted to newer shooters and he does say that with sufficient training you can learn to do all that you said. If you have years of military/LEO experience and you regularly train with your EDC then carry what every tickles your fancy, but if you are new then you should avoid active safeties.
For safe holstering you need a manual thumb safety. You can click it off for carry and there is no issue on your draw. Another alternative is to practice, practice, and more practice of thumbing off the safety on your draw.
No you dont.
To each their own.@@YellowjacketGTO
@@YellowjacketGTOYour gun, your choice.
I will not carry a Glock appendix carry but will carry appendix with a manual safety pistol
I recently purchased the Sig 365 Tac Pack... the pistol comes standard with a thumb safety. I have been very consistent with activating the safety to holster /tuck and then safety off once I have it in place wherever that may be. Takes practice and consistency, but I'm quite comfortable and confidant with this method.
That safety is easy to remove. I've kept mine anyways. When I'm carrying in a holster, the safety is left disengaged. When I'm carrying in some other manner (at times, I need to), then I use the safety. It's not a perfect solution. I lean toward John's recommendation of "no safety", particularly since I carry both a SIG P365 (same Tacpac version), and an open carry P320X-compact (no safety). By the way, I've also added the Wilson combat mod (i.e. the WCP365X, converting the mags with flat plates) for both weapons. NIGHT and DAY difference. My basic CCW preference is to carry "same gun always" or close to it. To that end, I'm also adding the M*CARBO flat trigger & springs to my P365, to more or less match the trigger of the P320XC (yeah, John's gonna hate me for messing with the P365's trigger and springs, but it works for me - still testing it). Something for you to consider anyways (and yeah, I know your post is 2 years old as of this writing).
That's the way to go.
It's a training issue, period.
Not everyone has the luxury to train that much.
@@Caderic dry fire is 90% your training
@@Caderic train for a saftey? I train everyday for free in my living room
@Gregg Sinini lol
@@Caderic dry firing will teach you how to get passed this. I have a 2011 and i draw and dry fire ALOT, it becomes second nature
if they can't remember the safety, they probably forget to load it with ammo lo
I’ve never been in a heat of the moment situation but I always ride the thumb safety on my 1911. So I went with the 365 with thumb safety. Cool thing about the safety is, if it’s holstered, you can always leave the thumb safety off if you choose.
ASP is one of my fav channels too along with WPS and good ol Hickok.
Lmao “every single gun shop is filled with subject matter experts” this was my exact experience. Too funny.
Welcome to the world of gun ownership. Practice a lot and have fun, it's nice to have you join up. Now the first thing you have to do is go to gun shops and voice strong opinions to flustered soccer moms.
Yeah and the internet has them too. do this don't do that. This is the best, no that is. I carry one of two pistols, depending on attire. one has a safety switch the other does not. every time i draw my thumb swipes for the safety there or not.
All this assumes an average untrained gun owner.
You are correct under those conditions. A double action revolver or dingus on the trigger auto is fine for the untrained. But guns and untrained is always a bad combo.
For those who care theres something called muscle memory. My hands can't touch a 1911 without index finger reaching for slide stop end and thumb settling on the safety.
Oh and that dingus thingy, any untrained idiot can make it go bang. Including the guy trying to kill you.
SMEs
I have a gun registered with the wrong capacity due to an off duty employee standing at the counter at the same time.
If you have to actually "remember" to click off the safety, that means you don't practice enough. It should just be an automatic thing like blinking or breathing.
Thank you for saying this my hart was turning in my chest while he said those words.
Was about to say the same thing. I've trained on the Berretta M9 with external safety as required by military service. When I went to qualify I never forgot to unlock the safety. Everyone in Great Lakes was trained to click that shit off while bringing the gun up to present.
This guy is worth about 2 cents, such a moron, he's never found muscle memory. What I call a city pussy
Given enough pressure and you'll even forget to breathe. The necessity of an external safety is exactly why the model 1911 is no longer the ideal choice of defensive firearms in the modern world. In short, practice is critically important, but you cannot artificially create the chaos of a true life and death situation and odds are better than even that you WILL forget to click off that safety in a chaotic situation... no matter how much you practice. You're free to believe otherwise, but your belief won't change the reality. The bad guy wielding a gun without the manual safety has an advantage you cannot possibly match if your own weapon requires you first disengage a manual safety before the gun will work.
@@independentthinker8930 muscle does NOT have memory.
"*Flicks off safety in a 100th of a second* "Man that could be absolutely devastating" LMAO
Hmm, my Sig M18 has an external safety and I love and find it very valuable.
The military must have seen some value in it too.
Ricky from IBM, Ret
You sir, are correct. I kinda like a striker fired pistol (M18) with a manual safety.
Have the M17 (just the big brother of the M18), nd have to agree 100%. I would've bought a standard P320 if they came with the safety.
I used to think that same way. I live in the southeast where it's hot and humid 6 months of the year. I switched to appendix carry. Had a black glock, black holster, and black gym shorts on. When holstering my gun I missed seeing the black drawstring in the way. The loop got caught around the trigger, luckily I felt something was not right before it pressed the trigger. Now I carry a gun with an external thumb safety. With enough practice it becomes muscle memory. If I shoot any gun now my thumb automatically sweeps for the safety when I draw...lol
Honest, and a lesson learned honestly. Experience is a cruel mistress. Easy to read an article and be an "expert".
Agreed. With appendix carry, I'll stick to my 1911's grip safety plus thumb safety.
I do it... I practice drawing my CW (1 in the chamber, with the safety on) quite often... I am VERY comfortable doing this... It is now an automatic, imprinted response & I am very quick! I also take continuing education classes, go to the range, & I like to watch YT vids on many aspects of firearms. Then practice, practice, practice...
I had a guy who was a firearms instructor come to me as a patient who put a 9mm round through his support hand (luckily threaded the needle between bones, arteries, nerves) because his short tail of his 5.11 button down snagged in the trigger guard/trigger of his Glock 19 upon draw which not only NDed but it pulled the gun to point up/left which placed his support hand in the sights at point blank range as it returned from clearing his shirt to in front of his chest. He signed off on our ccw cerys after some Physical therapy!!
I’ve seen two NDs at matches that resulted in self inflicted wounds. Both survived thankfully. Both were caused by clothing obstructions on re-holster. I was already a safety-preferred kinda guy, coming from 1911 background. Now even more so. Especially when it’s pointed at my junk. It’s just part of your training. To each their own, but I’d never talk anyone out of wanting a safety.
Desperately waiting for a video or class about how you groom your hair and beard. Good lord, majestic.
People in the comments are missing the point - he is saying that even people who are experienced still make the mistake under enough stress/confusion. Therefore saying "train" isn't immediately a good response. i want to think that I could train enough to not make that mistake, and maybe i could. John has seen more and done more than me in direct experience with training for this, so its best to consider his point pretty heavilly rather than just assume he didn't think about training the safety usage at all...
This is why you train so it becomes my muscle memory.
Right on
This is one of the few "anti external safety" vids that I've watched where nobody was called a dumbass, etc if they preferred it. More people need to learn to give their opinions in this way. Great vid and solid points made.
I’m not against thumb safeties, if your going to have an external safety it should be a thumb safety, they are very natural to flip with some practice. However, I carry a revolver, so to each his own.
I had to reply to you even though it is about a year ago. I do like this channel as people are respectful. I have read threads here and there on many of WPSs videos and usually they are civil and respectful.
If you don’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re”...well, you know...
No insults were spoken in the making of this video.
“When Murphy shows up he always brings his brothers Broke, Desperate, and stupid.”
-Dave Ramsey
Kirk Yourself . that is so damn true.
I run 1911 style double stacks exclusively. When drawing, my thumb naturally rests on top of the safety, so it's not really even another thought or operation. If the millisecond or two it takes to disengage is going to make a difference in a gunfight, then you really need to work on your situation awareness and tactics. Single action cocked and locked gives you the smoothest most consistent trigger pull of any system. If you are used to striker fired, and put a few down range with one of my race guns, or even my carry, you will definitely get a chubby.
'Somewhere in the mogadishu'
"this [presents finger] is my safety."
When you have been using external safety for 40 years, I can't see switching. I can see a problem if you are trying to train both. I think pick one and stick with it. 👍
Yes. In my training I was forced to learn to deactivate the safety the split second I removed my sidearm from it's holster. It's muscle memory and training.
I currently have a Sig P365 without a safety. It makes me a little nervous, but only because I've never been trained long enough to be comfortable with no safety.
It'll take time for me to get comfortable and used to it.
@banzailarp new to guns...how reliable is thumb safety(on) when gun is dropped? are there cases where the gun fired even if the safety is on?
Well said. My hands are so broken down with big swollen arthritic fingers. Pretty much every modern style handgun and even revolvers I've had since I was a kid, feel awkward, clumsy, and uncomfortable. It sucks, but luckily full size 1911s still feel good in them. I'm a big dude and wear oversized Dickies shirts so it's not hard to IWB conceal carry.
@@DonDon-eo5nv thumb safeties are very reliable, you just have to remember to defeat them. I prefer a hammer fired pistol with a decocker. It makes for a heavy initial trigger pull. But if you stage your shot by taking up the slack and shooting from the wall instead of trying to push it like a button it works just fine. Also I reholster with my thumb on the hammer, so if I meet any resistance I can feel it immediately. I don’t have anything against striker fired pistols, I just use what works for me.
@@jad3415 They now have a safety for the p365 I added one on my P365XL if you didn't already know. It's like $100 for the new grip and safety module but it's still cheaper than buying a new gun.
I was a double action revolver guy, very simple, no safety. It was my duty weapon as an LEO in the '80's. Then I became a 1911 guy, 70 series, external safety in an inside thumb break holster, thumb break operation placed my thumb on the safety as I drew the gun. Now I'm a striker fired Walther with an RMR guy. But I still carry my 1911, because I just love how it fits my hand, how it shoots intuitively for me. The safety is just a part of my training, off as the gun comes up, on as the gun comes down. But for newbies, you are absolutely correct. Modern firearms safety systems work exceedingly well and require less training to operate efficiently.
So many people have some issue with an external safety on a pistol, none of those people have a problem with an external safety on a rifle. Weird.
I feel like proper training would make turning the safety off instinctual.
It does. At least for me.
It does with rifles, if you see any good shooter they will point the rifle, deactivate the safety and really quickly after shooting, they would activate it again.
Eduardo Lima Argimon yeah, that’s what I do. I don’t have too much pistol experience yet, but I do think it will be pretty much the same.
@@ZSmith-yy4lv It is, I find that the pistol safety is even easier to reach than the rifle ones.
It is for me. Do it real quick. As I'm unholstering I'm pulling the hammer back (lighter trigger pull) on my H&K P30S and then as I move my thumb into position I flip the safety off. I just like the extra feeling of not accidentally shooting myself. I also feel like it is a safer weapon when not holstered. Most of the striker fire safeties are meant to keep the gun from accidentally going off. Where a thumb safety makes the gun safer from the trigger from being pulled when it's not supposed to be.
Safety on...
Safety off.
You practice, Daniel-san. Concentrate. Focus power!
Eric Copenhaver hahahaha
Gunner 240B that’s Bc they don’t train enough.
@Gunner 240B Yet all of our rifles have safeties. And yet we don't fail to take it off under stress.
Training under stressful realistic conditions can negate the detrimental effects of a safety, but why would you want to?
My favorite gun has always been a hk usp in da/sa with a safety and decocker. It’s 100% reliable with any ammo, and a tack driver. It is a horrible choice for concealed carry. There are many varients that would be great, but not that one.
Imo a safety is stupid for ccw. Why introduce the potential of failure? Okay, you trained for hundreds of hours and went through thousands upon thousands of rounds drawing and firing, the potential is still there. What if you’re in a scuffle and your thumb is badly injured before you can draw? What if your hands are bloody or oily and slip off the safety?
With proper training it’s a very small chance of failure, but there’s still a chance.
When you carry concealed, you’re planning on small chances. There’s a minuscule chance that you will need your gun. You carry to be prepared for that minuscule chance. Why prepare for one and ignore the other?
patrick c, well-said. What does the safety add if you’re flicking it off on the draw anyway? How is it keeping anyone safe if it’s off whenever the gun is in your hand? Why add another complex component and motion for basically no reason?
Also, all the guys that say, “just train for a thousand hours to take the safety off,” WHY? Why not START with that thousand hours being totally unnecessary? That’s like saying I can train to rebuild my car’s engine with a Leatherman tool. Sure, but why would I?
Lastly, I’ve heard 100 people here say, “no one forgets to take the safety off their AR!” Seriously? Am I really the only person that has seen that happen?
Personally, I think a DA/SA with a decocker and an external hammer is the safest for concealed. You can put your thumb in the hammer and if something gets in the trigger well you will know from the pressure and be able to adjust before discharging (still pay attention obviously). Not my idea, been shown in a lot of stuff. But great points on external Frame lock safeties.
One reason I picked up an XD-E a couple years ago. Got the thumb safety like a 1911, which I usually leave off because you got the DA/SA option with the first shot.
When I first started carrying , my EDC was the S&W Shield with an external safety. I couldn’t have imagined carrying without an external thumb safety. But I was also impressed by the people against an external safety, indeed the ones that I admired most. Six years ago I switched my EDC to the G43 and the first thing that I noticed was a much greater respect for handling the gun and especially the credo that every gun is loaded. And the realization that like John said, my holster was the external safety. Being a guy that examines, ruminates and dissects the philosophy on topics that affect my life, I soon discovered that the single most dangerous time period in carrying was the action of drawing and reholstering my gun. So then I was drawn to carry positions, different holsters and my outer garment wear. None of them proved an answer except for one, the Glock Striker Control Device. Utilizing it and my natural thumb position on the gun when drawing but especially when reholstering proved to be my almost foolproof action, with emphasis on the word almost. I am in the process of examining the new micro 9’s ( solely for their increased capacity)as a new EDC but I am loathe to give up a gun that I trust for my perceived safety and because of its Johnny Glocks fantastic drop in trigger. That’s my 2 cents.
If I have to chose between carrying an un-chambered Glock, to avoid an accidental discharge 3rd degree felony, and carrying a manual safety, that I can ready with one hand, I'll choose the manual safety. Thank you for your videos and efforts to help make the 2A population more informed, more prepared, and more responsible.
A rational reply that applies to most inexperienced gun owners.
Not in enforcement, but not inexperienced. A rational philosophy for anyone weighing the reward of potentially defending your life against potentially ruining your life. An accidental discharge may be changed to a negligent discharge, if you are in a dwelling, or if there was a risk to life (a rudimentary interpretation). If you live in a liberally run area, there are probably existing laws for these offenses that were designed with extreme prejudice (meaning you will be ruined in every conceivable fashion, and your prison mate will be a guy ironically named Tiny). Both carries go boom. Both carries can be readied instantly with one hand. But, if you carry to defend yourself, you ought to consider all the aspects of self-defense, including Glock leg and all the laws that apply to any discharge. Accidental/negligent discharge is the most common, and it is common. I love my Glock, but the reason I don’t carry it is not inexperience, it is because of considered research and introspection, and have decided that (for me) a chambered weapon with a manual safety is better than an un-chambered striker fire and is equal to a chambered striker fire while simultaneously reducing the risk of physical and legal injury. If you aren’t bound by policy, then a CCW should consider these things when choosing a carry philosophy, and I do not believe there is enough discussion around it. Most of the commentary I have found is tyrannical, ego stroking, carry shaming. It’s like the Taliban of the 2A population (if you don’t think and do as I do, you aint sh!t!) Happy trails.
ua-cam.com/video/XucT-fBZnXE/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/X-WJMoxMfm4/v-deo.html
you life, your choice, personally I would not buy a gun with external safety, as I have grand children, also I served in times of peace and war, all my weapons had a safety, Israeli forces also carry without one in the chamber. Practice, make muscle memory. Glocks are more often returned than any other brand, ua-cam.com/video/9D2M5qxQbg4/v-deo.html
@@FeWolf You served. I enjoy the freedoms you protected. I am in your debt. Thank you.
Why dont you just train. Carry one in the pipe and dont shoot yourself. Pretty simple.
This along with the Paul Harrell channel are surely the best channels on YT. I salute you, sir.
This was all base on your preference, if someone needs an external safety to be more at peace with carrying a pistol get one with a safety, just practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature to disengage the safety on the draw
Or get competent training .
@@Dcm193 there we go again. What is the deal with you people telling everyone else what to do? If they need a safety on their weapon to carry it, so be it. Who are we to tell them what to do? How about this? You carry the way you like and let everyone else carry the way they like. Next you are going to be telling them they have to carry appendix or don’t carry at all, or they have to carry a Glock or don’t carry at all, etc. what the hell is wrong that we are not capable of let everyone do their thing. To me it’s all the same as long as they are in position to defend themselves or some else; can’t carry without a safety, get one; can carry a 9mm, get a .22 lr; can carry a gun at all, get a knife or a couple of rocks in your pockets. It doesn’t matter what you do, just don’t be a victim, unless you want to of course.😂😂
@@unpoquitoloco all I said was to get competent training. That’s something people should do.
@@Dcm193 on that you are right. I’m sorry if I miss understood what you meant. But on the training you are right, even if your are going to carry a sling shot with rocks you got to train, and even if it not a lot of training because it can get expensive, some training is better than none, but the more often you train the better, you wouldn’t believe what I have done with just a $100/ month budget for training.
@@unpoquitoloco that’s what I was trying to get at . Don’t let the fact that it is a da/sa be the only reason you feel confident carrying it let training be the reason.
The people who claim not to have enough time to flip the safety be the same ones who magically have enough time to grab an AR-15.😂
And toggle the safety on their AR-15.
I prefer no safeties. But if we can train and be proficient with a rifle thumb safety, why can't we train and be proficient with a pistol thumb safety?
True But why needlessly complicate things. ’m pretty sure if assault rifles were capable of having a safe system like these striker fire pistols and their holsters they would use it for the same reasons explained in the video. Then again the military is funny about having safeties on guns.
Then theirs the difference between being a operator who trains many thousands of hours to perfect using these platforms and being the average concealed carry civilian.
Military many ppl train and work together to help ensure their are no surprises and that if their is a surprise they likily have contingency plans and a whole arsenal of other branches backing them up.
In the civilian world you are all alone and likely will never need to shoot your weapon in defense...but if you do you will likely be with your family or all alone against a lethal threat....and it will be within 5 feet with you starting at a severe disadvantage.
I love both pistols, but I completely get why (if a lethal counter occurred) I’d rather just draw and squeeze rather than draw, flip safety, squeeze.
Minnesota Guy with a rifle in hand youre probably prepared to be in a fight and therefore in that mindset. Conceal carrying not as much, going about your day and then everything goes south.
Minnesota Guy, you can train and be proficient with a thumb safety, but why would you? You could also train to open the trigger lock each time, too, but that would be ridiculous.
John isn’t saying you can’t learn the Thumb safety on the gun you have, he’s asking why someone would buy a gun with a thumb safety in the first place, which hasn’t been sufficiently answered in hundreds of dissenting comments.
@@f308gtb1977 Then, you have not been studying the comments properly. Hey, i get it from reading your comments. You dont like pistols with manual safeties. Just like i dont like the ergonomics of a Glock, or its crappy trigger pull. Nor do i like the fact that its so light. The heft of solid steel always helped me with recoil management and quick and accurate followups. Every solution has its advantages and disadvantages. So yes, maybe a Glock will eliminate the chance for you fumbling with the safety, but in my opinion, it will also increase your chance of negligent discharge. Esp. with regards to new shooters, and even more so under stress. Whatever your choice, you will have to train hard to be safe. Sure, watching John shoot his Glocks, i can tell he has no issues whatsoever with recoil management, nor follow up shots, but for beginners.. could it not also be an argument for old school solid steel, that it actually helps in making the shots hit where you intend them to? Maybe not within the typical close range scenario of a typical gunfight, but i can most assuredly picture situations where it would be an advantage..
MoparMan, I read fine. Just haven’t seen anything approaching convincing yet. And for the record I don’t care much for Glocks either. I don’t carry any of mine. If I have to take a Dremel to it for it to NOT bash my knuckles, it wasn’t designed quite right. I could take or leave the trigger. And yes, I have 1911’s, one with a custom trigger, so I do know the difference.
I haven’t found anyone yet who thought the polymer 9’s were actually so snappy compared to a 1911/2011 9 that it was the deal breaker for them. I don’t have any time on 1911-style 9’s to make the comparison personally. But I know Berettas VERY well, and they’re smoother, but not “I can’t shoot anything else” smooth. I’ll take a light gun any day, within reason.
That being said, I do usually give new shooters the 92FS for a mag or two to get the feel of recoil, so you’re not wrong.
👍🏻
You can throw it against the wall and it won't go off....
Sig: Hold my beer.....😂😂
Still laughing! Well done
Never had problems with mine.
Low blow lol
🤣🤣😂😂🤣🤣🤣
OOHHHHH!!! SHOTS FIRED!
Just train with what you carry, and you’ll be fine! If you don’t feel confident without an external safety, don’t let someone tell you otherwise. It’s better to have one and train with it, than to not have one and pop yourself in the junk reholstering it🤷🏻♂️
Exactly
Funny every rifle and shotgun you own and use, have safeties, yet you never fail to switch to fire when ready to shoot. So any errors in handling are training scars. Like Yeager said, “You are wrong again”!
Two World Wars! Show some respect to your elders.
Ha! Pretty sure we used revolvers almost exclusively as sidearms for first war Mac! 🤣😉👍
@@jackmeholf5565 REALLY?? Model of "1911" ring any bells? The 1911 was there from the start of WWI.
@@stephenurban9880 doesn't mean they were the prominent service pistol. I got to fire a WW1 1911 which was super cool history wise and all it was my buddies great grandfathers. BUT man was that thing inaccurate as hell.
@@wlmblsffflions4691 The 1911 was the standard issued service pistol during WWI. They were supplemented by the M1917 revolver (also chambered in .45ACP) due to the military needing more pistols than the manufacturers of 1911s were initially able to produce when war broke out. However the M1917 remained a stop gap measure and not the primary issued pistol.
WWI production of 1911s totaled over 643,000 while less that half that number of M1917s were produced.
Unless the weapon is worn out the 1911 is NOT an inaccurate pistol. I shot Expert in the Marines with multiple 1911A1s that rattled like a box of bolts when shaken. Pistols that others claimed to be inaccurate pieces of junk. Shooters who were flinching at the anticipation of the powerful recoil (LOL) and/or jerking the trigger, etc.
America won WW1? Thats like saying i won a marathon by running the last two miles
External safety. When I was in the army I carried an m14 and a 1911. We trained to lock and load both guns. It is training that keeps you alive when a dangerous situation occurs. Now. You train yourself to put your trigger finger along the slide when drawing your weapon from the holster and not put your finger in the trigger weld to prevent you from firing prematurely. Good practice. However. You need to practice that motion a lot.
Having said that, every time I brought my m14 up to a firing position my finger was in the trigger guard. To unlock the safety you merely push your finger forward once it was in the trigger guard to unlocked the gun. Many times we did not put the safety on because we were in a situation were every second counts. Same thing with the 1911 which had an external safety, you can keep It on or off depending on the situation. To me the trigger safety is usless. Put a Glock 19 under your pillow and tell me what prevents the trigger from being pressed. In a situation when bad things happen, you might put your finger into the trigger guard and when pulling the gun put from under your pillow, from under the car seat. Or glove compartment, you just might pull the trigger and send s round somewhere you didn't want it to go. I owned several guns that did not have safeties on them, so I made sure that when I carried they were in a holster which as you said becomes the safety. Anything you can do with a Glock you can do with a 1911 which also has a grip safety. It's all in your training. Hay, carry a Glock 19 inside your waistband and when a situation arises you could become a unick. Get the gun stuck on clothing and it could go off. Let's face it. If you are going to carry a gun or use to protect your family and home, you must practice. You need to know your weapon and it must become as easy as using a retractable ball point pen. That's why we have guys like you. What matters is that you know how to operate your gun safely. External safety or none at all. Oh one last thing, internal safeties are designed to prevent the gun from firing if it is dropped accidentally. If you don't drop them then the safety will not work. As I mentioned I carried several guns that did not have a safety. The holster was the safety. When I kept it under my pillow or any place else i needed two hands to prepare to fire. One to hold the holster and one to pull the gun out of it. Not so with an outside safety. One hand operation. It's all in training. You have to train and know your weapon. You should do things without thinking, movement should be a reaction. If I did not have good reaction an reflexes I would be dead. So, its training with your weapon of choice. Oh!! I own a Sig with a decker. AMD you know what. It can be fired accidentally. So, when riding it for protection I never kept a round in the chamber. I practiced drawing and when presenting the gun I could rack the slide simultaneously without any loss of speed. True the method is not quick for a one hand shooting situations so I prefer an external safety.
Dan: If you go online and see the actual sequence that occurs when that little plastic pre trigger is depressed you will see that all three "safeties" are disengaged. So at that point the only safety feature is keeping your finger off the trigger so it's the same as any other weapon.
Skipper. My issue is that in handling a gun without an external safety can result in an accidental discharge. Any object can enter the trigger guard and fire the weapon. Any thing can depress the trigger. In reality that means that there is no safety on the gun. In most cases the holster is the safety. But once out of the holster bang. 1911s have a grip safety which helps. I will check out your recommendation. Have a great day.
@@danielswartz6818 I wasn't disagreeing with you Dan quite the contrary. I too carried both of the same weapons. As I said, the only safety on a striker fired is the same as any other firearm and that is keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to fire and nothing other.
Many people swear by them but you'll never find one in my gun safe.
Same with a horizontal carry shoulder holster. Actually if you put those two together you have the perfect setup for shooting an innocent person standing behind you.
Thanks and a good day to you too.
Amen. Forgive my one eye focus. Have a great day
@@skipperclinton1087 I was thinking about the pretriger safety when I pulled my Sig out from under my pillow. If I inadvertantly reached and by accident my finger grabbed the triger first. Bang. Remember it's dark and you are half asleep and not 100 %. So that pretriger is not so safe and relying on it is futile. I will take the external safety instead. It's my opinion but the trigger safety is a bone head design. Have a Holy Easter.
Train with the firearm you EDC. The key to surviving a self defense attack is to wait your turn and have a smooth accurate draw. That can only be accomplished with training. Train like you fight. Fight like you train.
As a 39 year old 1911 guy, I am all about thumb safeties. It is my battery of arms. Unholster, bring to armpit, wrap up with support hand, safety off, push out. I don’t trust striker fired pistols without safeties. It is far too easy to make an accidental fist, including the index finger. Incidentally, my Springfield XD-E has my favorite safety mechanism of my pistols. Up safe, down fire, press down decock.
I've never had to think about turning off a grip safety. I'm kind of surprised they aren't offered on more guns.
Sometimes you have to put extra thought into making sure it's depressing. On one of the grip safety handguns, I've shot I had to adjust my grip a few times because I was being met with a dead trigger.
Sorry, but I disagree. You had mentioned in a previous video that fine motor movement with a slide release was a matter of training vs over the top racking the slide. You favored using the slide release. Same theology applies to the "Thumb Release on a Pistol". If you train with a thumb safety release (AKA 1911 style), it will not be an issue!!! It will be an automatic muscle response that negates the issue you are presenting. I DO understand that some thumb safeties switch up or down. The advantage is with the person that trains with the thumb safety vs the person that does not!! Hoorah!!!
The difference here is that the issue of a slide release and a safety switch is that if you're pressing the slide release, you've already hopefully put shots on target and have run dry (or the perp is down and you're doing a tac reload). Either way you've already put rounds down range, so forgetting to reload isn't the issue. Forgetting the safety ends in no rounds down range.
He even acknowledges that near the end. He mentions that for all the folks who have already got the safety into muscle memory and run stress training scenarios all the power to them. He says he is mostly recommending the holster method to beginners and intermediate
My wife and I agree, train and this is a non issue. An added bonus is in an encounter were bad guy gets your gun that safety might save you some precious moments. Instead of them just being able to point and pull.
Agree. Non issue. Johns arguement is akin to presenting your pistol and forgetting to squeeze the trigger to make it go bang
I agree that enough training can usually (but not always, not absolutely) eliminate fatal errors in the real world, and John acknowledges that. But aside from you and others taking exception to his recommendation of safety-less firearms, remember that he's trying to remove all possible roadblocks between the shooter and success (survival). An external manual safety is a roadblock -- one that can be overcome, but a roadblock nonetheless. And it's frankly an unnecessary roadblock, considering all the advances in firearms and holsters, which is a meaningful point that John also makes.
Don't forget that he also mentioned seeing numerous trainees who considered themselves very proficient with manual safeties ultimately fail under stress. Consider the implications of such a failure. If you're 110% confident that you won't fail to disengage the safety when it's life or death, more power to you. But again, it's an unnecessary skill that's (hope you're sitting down) rooted in an outdated pistol design.
Blasphemy aside, the 1911 wins all beauty contests, hands down.
It didn't make any sense being told that the safety must be on for the micro 9 or p938 in light of knowing the super light trigger pull on the walther ppq or the bersa bp9cc that don't have any safety. I spoke to customer service from ONE of these two manufacturers ( kimber or sig sauer) and verbally pushed the customer service guy until he said its a personal preference after he had been giving the company line...."safety is everything" and they will never say otherwise for protection from liability and reputation. A good holster is a safety. This is a FANTASTIC video.
An external safety can prevent an accidental discharge, especially when holstering. The way around an external safety, as many others have already mentioned, is to train to drop it until you can do it in your sleep. I've trained to drop mine while drawing. Also, the best way to train is to go to a range and participate in shooting competitions. That will force you to drop your safety under stress and anxiety. Constant quality training can keep you safe with a safety.
I think for the average Joe who doesn’t practice but maybe once or twice a month this is definitely the way to go.
Kyle Wood FACT
IDK how anyone else trains, but with the 1911 platform specifically... the thumb safety is defeated subconsciously with your draw. I don’t think twice. Out of thousands of rounds through my 1911, I’ve never drawn and not had the safety depress. Even in stress induced situations.
Then why have it all? Just another step and clearly not necessary?
3nertia Because it is a safety.
@@rangerrecon An unnecessary one ...
@@3nertia Agreed. Why is it needed?
@@scottbrown205 At a guess? Idiots ... heh
I edc a glock but carried a 1911 for years. If you can’t run the gun then don’t carry it. There’s a reason the term “ride the safety” came about. I was every bit as comfortable and proficient with my 1911 as I am my 19. I’ve never timed it. But I’d say draw to target time is about the exact same. Safety comes off in one motion as the guns coming up.
One word: Training.
Do you get into your car and just drive away? No, you turn the key on to start the engine.
Blaming the safety for poor training is not a valid argument.
He did point that out at the end.
@Andrew Foulds with proper training and motor skills the safety is not a problem i have never had to think about the safety on the 1911 i practiced continually....those who have problem do not take time to practice and know the gun they are carrying which means like most people today are LAZY
The other problem is where to train? I have never been to a range that allowed drawing from the holster. Most will not permit access you if you are wearing a holster, even if you have a CCW permit.
I know you can train drawing and dry firing at home from a holster, but it is _NOT_ the same. Not everyone has a location where they can train outdoors without getting arrested or without driving 4 hours each way to access BLM land.
@@Uberragen21 It might not be the same, but doing it at home unloaded with snapcaps might be your best option. You have to make do with what you got.
Not that I disagree with you in principle or theory, but in practice I see people forget to take their guns off safety at the range on a regular basis. It happens on UA-cam, as well, even to guys who have more experience shooting than I could ever match. I guess they should train more and better, but it's not an uncommon occurrence even in such a relaxed situation, which isn't an encouraging sign when it comes to stressful ones. A potential issue such as this must be weighed, on an individual basis, against the advantages of having a manual safety, as with all features.
6:10 "Your holster is your external safety" Brilliant!
ua-cam.com/video/FrJMQupYxaw/v-deo.html
@@Falconryder Good video!
Three things immediately hit me....
1. No "External Safety"
2. The average Law Enforcement Officer has less time with his / her weapon, and therefore less skill, than the average gun enthusiast. (despite the egos screaming at us otherwise)
3. No matter what, it's still a "NEGLIGENT" discharge........ So "confident" in "his" ability to handle a firearm that he never verified his holster was actually clear. That does NOT make him a bad person..... just a GOOD person that had a BAD moment! (and if it had been one of us, would we be back at work the next day, or sleeping somewhere where we could be watched by guys in his profession?).... just sayin'.....
Watching expert UA-cam makers forget to take their safeties off during a demonstration. in MANY videos, kind of makes your point. But we also have no statistics on how many times safeties have stopped a negligent discharge.
If you can't train to turn off your safety you should keep training. I personally don't like holstering my Glock appendix with one in the pipe. I don't have to think about it too much with my shield or my 1911.
If you're having a problem with the thumb safety then you are probably not trained enough to be caring a firearm.
lol ... maybe he doesn't have opposable thumbs. :)
Do you not understand under high stress encounters you lose the ability to use your fine motor controls. Fumbling with an external safety in an actual gun fight can get you killed. Fractions of seconds matter. If you’ve ever been in a car accident, you know it happens very quickly, it almost blind sides you. That’s how violence is and that is EXACTLY how violence erupts, it blind sides you and you have barely any time to react.
@@danieljamieson7831 "lose the ability to use your fine motor controls"
>trigger
>magazine release
>slide release
Daniel Jamieson it isnt a fine motor skill when it becomes muscle memory. As soon as the weapon is drawn and being brought up to aim down those sights, the safety can be flipped off. There is no reason for all of a century that people got “caught” on the safety in firefights. Its simply training with it.
Lol I wouldn't go that far. But I would say you aren't trained enough to carry anything with a thumb safety
If you cant remember to switch your safety off when drawing in a stressful situation, you aren’t training hard enough. Thats it.
100% agree
are you training with someone on top of you pounding you with a brick or getting shot at?
@@babyblue8214 If someone is pounding you with a brick it might be too late honestly..at that point taking out a gun might be detrimental, the attacker takes it from you and its over. Its all full of "what ifs" and especially the very very rare ones....just carry what you train the most with, if it has a manual safety then youre going to switch it off just by gripping it. Its just a learned position of the hand.
Yup.
@@babyblue8214 if someone is pounding you with a brick you best have a knife on you or have decent martial arts skills.
ARs, and most other rifles and shotguns have manual external safeties. Plenty of people shoot trap and PRS competitively with guns that have a safety.
Most notably, rifles for dangerous game usually have a safety too. If pro hunters in Africa are not hindered by the safety on their .375 Holland & Holland when a cape buffalo is bearing down on them, I don't think that a manual safety in a pistol is going to be any riskier. More likely, it might help somebody not to get hurt if they make a mistake. People (even trained people) make mistakes.
Your chance of ND is much higher than whatever gunfight scenario you can imagine up. And you should imagine scenarios where your gun is taken off you or a child gets ahold of it. And relying on holsters is pretty iffy given the huge variety and the fact that most are third party.
My M&P Shield has a thumb safety and its instinctual to hit it when drawn. I did practice with it though so it would be part of the process. Makes me feel better carrying with a loaded weapon. Very easy to do to be honest.
My exact thoughts. Ease of mind is worth the extra .2 seconds
"Wax on, wax off"
-Mr. Miyagi
"Safety on, safety off"
-John Lovell
No, it's "safety on, safety off" - John Moses Browning.
Now you killing. Now you ain't.
I full time CCW the 45 PPQ 12+1 in the pipe with No safety. Just bought the HK45 V1 with a safety & a decocker: way too much hardware??I’m going to remove this wastful garbage & go back to single action. I totally agree with you presentation & I’m really disgusted with all these whiny safety nuts. Hopefully they’ll become a statistic when it’s go time!
No, I have seen to many passive "safety" firearms go off while reholstering due to clothing hang.
If you can't work your safety you can't work your gun. You bring the safety off every rifile and shot gun when you being the gun up and a pistol is no different. I can't believe this idea of running locked and cocked round ready with no safety is ok.
Get training.
It's perfectly ok.
@@mrdark9916 I have. Israeli defense forces don't carry with a round in the chamber. US army uses the Beretta 92 with safety on untill firing. When you move with your rifle you have safety on when not fireing. Perhaps you need training?
@@lastmelon952 get gud.
Learn to code
@@mrdark9916 ah yes the "I don't know anything and have been beaten but need to say something" response.
@@lastmelon952 no, the "you don't need an external safety, just get good" response.
Same as before. Lol
As a former LEO and now as a ASEO that has and still carries a S&W 5904 on duty in a level 3 holster. The safety is only a training issue. The M-9 that was carried by the military also had a thumb safety.
With training any person can get a weapon out of a level 2-3 holster almost as fast as a belt slide holster and before the weapon is up to meet the support hand or even out of leather the safety is OFF and weapon is immediately ready to use.
That being said my partner was saved because a perp forgot to knock the safety off of a 1911. If he (the prep) would have had a Glock, my partner would have been in a gun fight for his life. It ended with NO shots fired and the gun was completely operational. He had stolen it 2 hours before.
I love and agree with everything else you have ever said. But on this one I would say train to become proficient with any weapon. You NEVER know what you might have to pick up one day.
I've been buying guns for my daughter, since before she was born. I can borrow them, until she becomes of age.
I'm a new shooter. Haven't bought my first handgun yet, but I've attended basic safety course and been renting at a local firing range. My 2nd time there, I fired 2 shots out of a magazine and then nothing! I was a bit thrown off because I was expecting the POW that didn't come, which confused me for a moment. I thought maybe it was jammed or something, so I did the recommended hit the magazine to make sure it's fully inserted and engaged, then rack the slide... bullet popped out, new one loaded. Then tried to fire at target again, but nothing. Couldn't pull the trigger.
In my inexperience, I didn't realize that I had inadvertently engaged the external thumb safety after the 2nd shot from the magazine. Once I realized that, I disengaged the safety and all was right in my world again.
However... what that taught me is that I cannot trust that external thumb safety. Even if I were more experienced and could say, in a highly charged, split second instant, "oh, well lookie here, your thumb safety has become unexpectedly engaged, which is why you can't shoot at this life threatening attacker".
I can hear the keyboard jockeys typing already... "with more experience and training you will have better muscle memory and your thumb will instinctively land right on that thumb safety as you are drawing it and ensure that it is disengaged and cannot be re-engaged... blah blah blah..." What I'm saying is why should I have to rely on that???!!! Why do I have to fight against a tool and trust (HOPE!) that my thumb instinctively disengages and keeps disengaged this external thumb safety when all I really want to do is grip, point and shoot. These things are supposed to be a tool for me to rely upon for my life.
Again, I realize that I'm a "rookie" and don't have any experience to back up my opinion, but I am wise. The other "modern" safeties found on "modern" handguns (a proper holster, trigger safety, internal drop safety and even grip safety) work reliably along with the normal operation of the handgun, not as an additional, distinct operation dedicated to only one thing, which, when properly engaged and doing its job, can get you killed when you need it to be NOT engaged.
External thumb safeties, in my humble, inexperienced opinion on "modern" handguns are superfluous liabilities.
You’re really annoying
I have carried some version of a 1911 for almost 50 years. Since my training began, I always have my thumb on the safety before the gun moves one inch when drawing it from the holster. If I am going to fire the gun, then the safety is off by the time my fingers get a full grip on the gun. I have trained my daughter the same way, repeatedly tested her, and am quite confident that she can and will be ready if need be.
I respectfully disagree. I would argue that there are more misfires having one in the chamber and drawing gun. On my baby desert eagle my safety is perfectly placed so that I flip it the second I'm aiming. And all it takes is a thumb flip. I find that trigger safeties vary and that some are safer in your regards then others. This is a very personal preference and experience should dictate approach more than mere opinion.
how can you have a misfire when your finger isn't on the trigger? Seriously. Just asking.
Well, I flip the safety off as I bring the gun up after clearing my body before extending my arms. The safety is disengaged between the holster and the sight alignment. No loss of time. As the gun comes up to bear the safety is off. You have to practice. Think about this. A hand gun is really a combat weapon designed to kill. If it and you have the ability to kill another person, then you need a lot of practice in order to develop the proper skills. Otherwise don't buy one. Don't want to spend the time, Dont buy one. A recent news cast showed a single person draw his handgun firing 3 shots with one hand and killing all three people. You betcha he practiced. Oh it took him less than one half second. If the bad guys are so efficient and you are not. Leave the gun at the gun shop.
@@charlielease8629 Alec Baldwin keeps saying the same thing :-)
Totally agree. If these dudes googled how many people have discharged a loaded pistol with no safety they would be surprised. Id rather practice and make sure to remember than losing my manhood.
@@arthurcharlie2873 A proper holster made for your specific gun negates a lot of that
When I told a co-worker I carried a single action auto he said that was the worst type to carry. He said that under duress one is too likely to forget to release the safety. I asked if he ever worried about forgetting to put his finger on the trigger when he was ready to fire in a stressful situation. He thought for 6 - 8 seconds and said...."Point taken".
The only semi-autos I carry concealed and shoot in IDPA are the 1911 & BHP.
It does all come down to training. I agree a pistol with a manual safety may not be the best for a new shooter...…..UNLESS they are willing to devote the range time necessary to ingrain the motions to muscle memory.
I would not recommend any gun without a safety to a new shooter. If a person is gonna fumble a safety, they’re also liable to fumble handling a gun safely and having a negligent discharge. And given that you’ll need to safely handle a gun every day whereas you’re, in all likelihood, never getting into a gun battle at all, it makes more sense for someone to get a gun that’ll catch stupid mistakes they’d make early on handling a gun, and then train around the safety for the small chance they’ll be in a gunfight, rather than the other way around.
When I draw a 1911 from a holster, I dont even put a thumb on that side not until I present my gun into workspace, and then while building a grip I put a thumb on that safety down for extra control of the pistol. Never had a problem with it, maybe John didnt train with it enough ;)
Instead of offering unsolicited advice, I've found that asking questions is a good tactic if it's an important piece of information like choosing a gun for possibly saving someone's life.
"I overheard you and I'm just curious... why did you decide on an external safety rather than the alternative?"
Listen to the answer and ask a follow up question accordingly.
Example: "I want my daughter to be safe and this is what my father said to get because it's safe. He was in the military (40 years ago)"
Possible follow up questions:
"If your daughter isn't going into the military or going to be extensively training for a thumb safety, do you think it's possible that the thumb safety could hinder her from protecting herself if she's not used to it? Especially in a high stress situation and adrenaline is pumping..."
OR
"What do you think of the new safety systems?"
Them: "what new safety systems?"
"I don't know anything about them."
"I haven't looked into it really, I'm just going off of what I was told."
You: "Oh, I see... Well the good thing about the new safety systems is... (here's how they work and the pros and cons of each)"
It takes training. Many police have been saved by an external (thumb) safety when the bad guy gets control of the officer's weapon. Look into it and let me know if your opinion has changed?
John, I rarely disagree with your views, but on this one we diverge.
I don't disagree what what you opine as the downside, but I think you overlook the downside of the designs without a manual safety.
Both designs can only be used safely with proper training and practice. Many people think a thumb safety is too difficult to remember to disengage, and this seems to be what you are referring to. I ask the following; how many times do you have to repeatedly tell new shooters to keep their finger along side the frame and off the trigger when doing stress fire training/drills?
If someone can't remember to disengage the safety, why would I have confidence in them placing their trigger finger correctly during a presentation? It is the EXACT SAME physical skill between the two actions. All you are doing is digit a digit with either action.
When it comes to new shooters, diligence in training to the system is paramount. Interestingly, I see more problems transitioning between the two platforms from people who have only trained with the "safe action" type guns. What I think it really boils down to is the level of training that a person is willing to commit to. Either someone trains to a level of proficiency, or they are incompetent.
I have nothing against Glocks or similar designs. But it is the instructors responsibility to the student to insure that they understand the level of competency that they should strive for if they choose to carry a firearm for self defense.
I would wager that in over thirty years of firearms training, instructing and shooting competitively, I have seen far more negligent discharges with "Glock-type" systems than I have with manual safety systems.
Start watching your students very closely, if you haven't already, and start making note of how often their finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be. I think it may surprise you. Simply put, guns are engineered in such a way that it is very comfortable to do this, and with new shooters, it can be just as difficult to cure are teaching them to manipulate a safety.
Keep up the excellent work in firearms, and more importantly the work you do helping others to discover the Warrior Poet spirit and essence.
No sweat man. Different experiences and different opinions. I am certain our normal student is quite different from each others’ as well!
CubDriver451 good points
Safety or not... you better train students to keep their finger off the trigger.
I've got a manual safety on my m&p2 and practise drawing and disengaging it every single day. Feel much more comfortable carrying a round in the chamber too
How about a good holster and a da/sa trigger?
I have never heard that the holster is the safety explained like that before. Good point
I've got four semi-automatic striker-fired pistols, and all four of them have the ambidextrous manual thumb safety (AMTS), which I absolutely want and love.
IMHO, an AMTS is an absolute must on any / all striker-fired pistols.
Good things! 👍
I too need firearms with AMTS. Which firearms do you have with AMTS?
@ottolatimer9175
Currently, all of my remaining pistols with AMTS are Smith & Wesson M&P M2.0 models:
1) 3.6" Sub-Compact 9mm
2) 4" Compact Optics Ready 9mm
3) 5" Full-Size ProSeries CORE 9mm
4) 4.6" Full-Size Optics Ready 10mm
I had the 9mm Luger SIG Sauer P938, but traded it in favor of the more reliable, easier to shoot, higher capacity P365 (w/ AMTS).
Once I tried the S&W M&P 9 M2.0 3.6" Sub-Compact w/ AMTS, I was hooked / sold, and both my P365 and Glock 26 Gen4 were history. I immediately found the M&P to be more ergonomic and much easier to shoot well than either the P365 or the Glock 26. Since I've never experienced a malfunction of any kind whatsoever with any of these three pistols over the years, I'd say they're all equally and highly reliable. The M&P 3.6" Sub-Compact AMTS is my warm weather EDC.
Likewise, my M&P 4" Compact OR AMTS was / is better for me than my (former) tried and true cool weather EDC Glock 19 Gen3.
My M&P 10mm 4.6" OR AMTS pistol has replaced / retired my old Glock 20SF Gen3 as my wilderness trail biking / hiking / camping large critter self-defense platform, and as my home-defense pistol. Again, I've found it much more ergonomic and easier to shoot well than my Glock 20SF Gen3. In addition, my M&P 10mm has clearly proven to me to be far more reliable than my Glock 10mm.
Good things! 👍
I have carried a CZ with a decocker in a kydex holster for 2 years now and feel very safe with this firearm.
The best safety is between your ears
And the deadliest weapon
Topher...Quit calling us stupid !!! LOL
I don't think so but I am not sure
The second best is under your thumb.
"The best safety is between your ears," says the same guy who says, "In a stressful situation your brain won't function for you to remember to flick the safety while you draw."
“You play like you practice and practice how you play.”
(Marcus Luttrell)
As a person that has been told several times that my concern over strike fire internal “safety” of shooting my self by putting my gun on my holster “ I jusr need more training” Looks like the guy not flipping his safety needs “more training.” Lol yeah I get you but no, I want an external safety
I was raised by world war II veteran always trained with external safety guns until I became an adult and bought a Glock. It was strange not flipping the safety but I haven't had an issue remembering the safety feature on any of my pieces.
The U.S. military uses rifles with a safety... 😉 I try so often with a 1911, that I swipe the safety off on EVERY pistol...lol!