To you guys that dig the sound of 50 feet of cable more than the 6 foot, or buffered sound- that's what the treble knob on the amp is for! IMHO. I don't want my tone getting sucked by a cable. What happens when that cable breaks or gets lost? They all sound different (when there is no buffer). If you want the warmer tone- start with a strong, predictable signal, and then roll off treble at the amp. Why rely on a cable that's degrading your sound, to provide your tone? Makes no sense to me. I now on my board use a Mission buffered volume pedal close to the start of my chain, and a RJM Y-not at the end that's buffered as well. My PT100 fx loop is also buffered.
Couldn't agree more. I f you are used to the sound of 20 feet of cable and introduce 20 more - add a buffer. Maybe you could discuss where to place the buffer. On my rack board I only have a Vox Wah pedal on the board next to the MIDI pedal. I prefer placing the buffer after the Wah. Placing it before the wha - sounds harsh.
Where else could I find this info if you weren’t around? Thanks! Does the cable going through my effects loop to the pedals and back add the same loss as the cable coming from the guitar to the amp?
Thanks for posting this, Pete. So many people have heard from fellow non-experts and hearsay that buffers are bad. Unfortunately, instead of learning something, people will find ways to justify their bad opinions even in the face of evidence.
It's easy to understand, your guitar has a big series resistance: -About 10KOhms in the winding of the pickup -The tone pot adds 0 to 250KOhms, let's say 0 if you're keeping your clean sound. -The volume pot adds 0 to 250KOhms, let's say 125KOhms if you're half-way. And the cable has a linear capacitance, which means the longer the cable the higher the capacitance. Usually it's around 25pF/ft, let's say it's a 10ft cable, you get 250pF. Now look up what an RC low-pass filter is and you'll see that's exactly what we have here with R=135KOhms and C=250pF. This gives us a cutoff frequency of about 5KHz which means you get half the amplitude you should have at 10KHz, a third at 15KHz and a quarter at 20Khz.
Pete. I have to tell ya. Best and most informative videos on the web. The gear demos are always great but I liked this one even more. Look forward to what's next
I REALLY appreciate this. I've been told so many times about how much better true bypass was and didn't have any reason to rebut those people's claims. This gives me a whole new perspective on pedals and tone. Thanks!
Its not either/or. One is not better than the other. If you have a pedalboard with 10 true bypass pedals on it you are probably going to need a buffer, if you plug into 1 or 2 you probably don't
I used to tech for a guy who, for one thing was insane, and for another would run his wah in a bypass loop and insist on running a 50' cable from his wah to the loop return jack. He did this because, as you demonstrated, the high capacitance rolls off high end which gave the wah a darker, muddier tone which he liked. Kind of a "Cantrell-ish" wah tone years before Cantrell. He was clever, and batshit crazy too. Great demo!
Hi Peter ,nice video explaining the point. I never was confronted to this problem,as I always used 'active guitars' and 'Boss' pedals, until the day I bought my first passive guitar and a few 'un-buffered' pedals. Suddenly, the sound 'sucked'. Tried a bunch of different cables, nothing solved, until, I put back a 'Boss' pedal first in my pedal chain. That's why I now always use one,(even if I don't use it). probably a poor's solution, but it works, every passive guitar got it 's sound back. Then I made some research and understood why. Anw, thank you for clearing the subject. And it's a good video to send to the 'true bypass' fanatics out there. You can also, if your budget allows it, invest in a dedicated buffer or any dedicated box to tackle this problem. Thank you for sharing your experience! Have a great new year!
Thanks for this excellent video. It was cool to see someone (finally) use some actual data in this discussion. I especially liked the part where you laid the audio waveforms and EQ graphs over the top of each other. Well done!
That was very informative to me, thank you so much. It answered some questions I had. People argue this theory all the time with no real proof to back up either side of the argument. Considering the sources, I now feel like I can stand behind this info with confidence.
Hi Pete, thanks for the vídeo. It's a very tricky subject with many unclear answers and explanations but the graphics made very easy to notice The signal loss. I believe that, in the end it, will depend on each ones preferences of sound to have a good mix of buffered and true bypass gear.
True Bypass means the circuits of the pedal are not in your chain while the pedal is OFF so its not supposed to take anything from your tone. Cable length causes line loss which is a different issue. I dont get why people are confusing the two.
Amen man. I got a Mission Engineering Volume Pedal specifically for its buffer and the first day I plugged it in, I really heard my amp for the first time since I started using pedals. It restored my tone to where it sounded close enough to playing straight into the amp, something that I lost drastically with a long effects chain. Another use for buffered pedals is they seem to act as a good "buffer" between two pedals that sound bad together. I used to put my wah next to a BOSS ST-2 and a few fuzz pedals and one would make the other sound horrible. Tossing another BOSS pedal in between the two seemed to solve the problem.
I believe in a *high quality buffer at the beginning*, then as many true bypass pedals and low capacitance connector cords as needed. Using this method, I have run through 13 pedals with no audible degradation.
I have seen some guys use Boss Tuners as their buffers. Place a TU-2 or a TU-3 first in your chain and then to your volume. The tuner has an "always tuning" mode that lets you tune AND play so you don't have to ever fool with the pedal. JHS and T1M both make stand alone buffers if you already have a good tuner. Good luck, and I hope this helps! :)
It doesn't matter where the buffer goes in a chain in order to convert to low impedance, just that it is done at some point. It should ideally be before long cable runs, or as early as possible. Most pros who use them put them first. However there are circuits, like some fuzz pedals and wahs, which "desire" or require a high impedance signal to function at their designed maximum output. They like to "see" the guitar directly in order to achieve max processing results. Otherwise there's no rule.
Just my opinion, but I like the capacitance that is created by a cable on the hi end especially. When Pete played the examples I immediately thought the long cable sounded better eq wise. I usually always roll off my high end on my tone control because I like a darker sound. This is why I like true bypass pedals. By the way I use active pickups as well which totally changes the equation of need for buffers. Once again it is up to the individuals taste. Nice interview and very informative.
Yes, buffers help with the high end on long cable runs. Short cables... I have a 12 ft cable into 4 pedals, and a 3 ft cable going to the amp. My ears tell me that every Boss pedal I've stuck in the chain AFFECTS the tone. Ultimately, you can't let anyone else tell you what sounds right/wrong with your rig. Do all the research you can, but in the end, you have to listen to your ears.
Yes and no, humans are very good at fooling them self, if we expect a change its more likely we are going to hear a change, even where nothing have been changed.
Great video. I have 8 pedals on my board at the moment. All the pedals are true bypass and I am running george L cables on the whole set up. I have a few pedals that are buffered but I keep the buffer turned off. I have a RADIAL Dragster load corrector just before my delay pedal. In my experience the cable was always the problem if I had tone loss. This will always be the case when running cable in and out of pedals. I think you should have a buffer somewhere in your chain. Thanks Tim
Only depends on whether or not you have effects that work better with the high impedance guitar signal. Germanium fuzzes and most wah pedals are like that. Putting it last, first, or after your fuzz and wah all yield the same effect. It just needs to be there somewhere for the long cable runs. I would only worry about buffers if you have over 30' of cable or more than 5-6 TB pedals. JMHO.
With certain guitars, and certain rigs, the treble roll-off is actually an improvement. So, no. Some guys use large cable capacitance to their advantage to dull a high treble rig. The important thing to keep in mind is that there are no rules. Whatever YOU think sounds the best, truly DOES sound the best. It's YOUR SOUND. There are 5 million+ guitarists, and with them 5 million+ opinions on guitar tone. Ya gotta go with what pleases your ears and makes you want to play that rig. You're the boss.
I like the idea of TBP but with long cable runs the change in tone is an issue so I think a compromise works well, I have a buffered pedal at the start of my pedal board, usually a Boss tuner, and at least one more towards the end of the signal chain, usually a chorus or a delay, this seems to work pretty well.
Hey guys, this is my current signal chain : Guitar>T-Rex Phaser>Wylde Wah>Deluxe Signa Comp>Spark Booster>Custom Badass OD>Sovereign Distortion>Big Muff>Dunlop Volume Pedal>BOSS Tremolo>BOSS DD-7>Hall of Fame>Amp The question I have about a buffer, if I already have two BOSS pedals at the end of the chain, it is enough...? Do I still require a Buffer at the beginning of the signal chain...? Yes I do get a bit of treble bleed with my setup. I run between 15ft to 20ft of cable, not including all those patch cables in between. Please advice me...!! Thanks in advance...!!
put a buffer or buffered pedal as early in the chain as you can- if you have a fuzz, you might want to put the buffered pedal AFTER it- but if not, then it can be 1st in chain! Then you will only have the capacitance of the 1st 20 foot cable affecting your tone. Your sound with a good buffered pedal on your board should be very similar to plugging that same 20 foot cable directly into the amp.
Pete Thorn sorry I know this is a super old vid. I have a germanium fuzz face-ish pedal (shanks 4K) first in my chain/before buffer. I am thinking about ordering a dry bell vibe machine and am wondering if I should run it before or after the fuzz. I’ve read that the vibe effect is more pronounced/articulate pre-fuzz but I’m worried that vibe, when engaged, will negatively affect the fuzz tone. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
@@myndzi9926 I don't really know about the Drybell Vibe Machine but I would say as a rule of thumb germanium transistor fuzzes, especially fuzz face type ones need to be first in your chain to be able to do that clean-up-with-your-guitar's-volume-knob thing they do.
Well I will agree with you that the high end does come back with the use of the buffered boss pedal, but it's at a cost. Switching back and forth between the two sounds, I found a noticeable difference in clarity - like going from FLAC to 128mbit mp3. Maybe that is the price of using a digital buffer, and perhaps there are better buffers out there to resolve this problem, but to me boss pedals always muffle my tone.
Great demo, thanks, Pete. It would be great to talk more about what and where to put a buffer... I have a 20 foot cable to my pedal board, going through an EB volume and 8 pedals, most (?) of which are TBP, but no Boss pedals. I still think straight into my amps sounds much more alive, especially with archtops and single coils. I have some work to do, figuring out which, if any of my pedals is buffered. Wonder what the smallest, good quality buffer pedal would be. Thanks, very helpful!
If you have a 10' cable and 2 pedals, and then run a 10' or less cable to the amp, true bypass is no doubt an improvement over a buffer. However, if you are assembling a stage rig complete with 60-100' cable runs, you absolutely need buffering somewhere. It all depends on the rig. True bypass is what it is. It preserves the natural tone to the max possible where cable capacitance is not an audible issue. Once it does become an issue, as demonstrated here, a buffer can preserve your high end.
Easy solution, shorter instrument cords to & from each device. Hey, if you have an open back cabinet, losing some of that high end might be preferable as signal loss for tone. Saves you from having to compensate & dial it out & away with the EQ ?
If that's the case- wouldn't you rather just turn down the treble on your amp, or lower the tone pot on your guitar- rather than have the cable length doing some mystery lossy stuff to your tone? I don't want anything robbing me of tone- I prefer having the true sound of the guitar, and then adjusting the tone on the amp!!!
Having a problem in the beginning and maybe end of your chain is a great idea, the problem is when you have 15 pedals in your pedalboard and they all have buffers. Most Boss pedals actually have 2 buffers, input and output, so that's 30 buffers you go through before reaching the amp. My cheap alternative is having a boss pedal in the beginning of my chain like a TU-3 and another boss pedal like an RV-5 or a DD-3 in the end.
What is the input impedance of a guitar amplifier? I imagine it is as high as a buffered pedal to preserve the signal quality. The preamp must have a buffer. If you can keep the same cable length it doesn’t do you any good to use a buffered pedal, since the voltage drop of the signal is going to be mostly determined by the input impedance of the preamp anyways.
From what i understand its a cable mater. So i'd like to make you a question mr Thorn. If i use a balanced cable i will still have these impedance issues which effect the guitar tone?
Balanced signal cancels noise but unfortunately has no effect on the capacitance low pass filtering. Longer cable runs are not so much of a problem for microphones because they are built low-impedance for the very same reason. There seem to be low-impedance guitar pickups but I don't know enough to tell about them.
I always wondered if there would be any signal loss, putting pedals in the effects loop..? Does that have as much as a dramatic effect on tonality or signal loss.. When comparing the effect of signal loss from front of the amp?
Thanks for the video! But everyone only compares true bypass with only one buffer, how does it compare when you have 3 or 4 buffered pedals in your chain? And everyone suffers from that! Would it be possible to make a video on multiple buffers?
Alright, but what about for home use where you might have two 6 foot cables and a couple of pedals? I guess I want to know whether a buffered pedal can be detrimental in short cable scenarios.
Thanks, Pete, thanks, Zach, appreciate the help! I figured out that the TC Hall of Fame that I have at the end of my chain has a switchable buffer, so I reset that , but haven't tried it yet. I wondered about tuners as well, but just got a Korg Pitchblack tuner, so Ihate to replace it so soon. Any experience with the EP boosters from Xotic? They're small and if transparent enough, maybe that would be a good solution without using a dedicated buffer, like the SolidGold or Wampler. Thanks!
A doubt of mine - To "recover" this lost signal and hi-ends, the buffered pedal has to be the first one on your effects chain or only has to be there no matter where? Thanks!
People say to put the Buffered Pedal first, because it will preserve the hi-end from that point forward. So, if your buffered pedal is at the beginning of the chain, that will be the shortest amount of cable, and therefore the least amount of tone loss. Can your buffered pedal be the 2nd or 3rd etc? and still benefit your tone? Yes! ...But now there is more cable between the buffer and your guitar.
So having a simple Hi-Z 1:1 buffer as the first thing that you plug your guitar into would be a good thing, right? This is what I do. And I always play with the same (high quality, low capacitance) guitar lead going to that buffer, whether live (not that often any more) or in the studio.
Yes! Buffers in pedals were fine when guitarists only used 1 or 2 effects. Try putting 6 buffered pedals in line and listen to what that does to your tone! 🤮 Every buffer is (or should be) a 1-to-1 signal amplifier, and every buffer introduces a little bit of noise, no matter how transparent it is. Also the switches and resistors even in “true bypass” pedals can change the impedance and/or capacitance of your signal path.
Though it wasn't said in the video, the idea surely would be be to have mostly true bypass pedals and one or two buffers? Since too many buffers will likely colour your tone. A lot of boss pedals have pretty bad buffers too.
My board starts out with neutrik Jack in, zvex fuzz, buffer, volume and then to a loopmaster patch pedal that has all of my pedals routed individually. So in master bypass mode I'm literally running through three pedals, buffered back to my amp. I couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
Pete... Do you use a volume Pedal? I use a ernie ball to tune on stage... but I find they break really often either with the pot going bad or the pin sliding out. I've gone through a bunch. Any suggestions?
Buffer is like adding salt to the food you're served; it makes it taste better but you can't get rid of it if you didn't want it. True bypass is like being served the dish without salt, it doesn't taste as good, but if you didn't want the salt, you have the choice now. So, that's my beef with buffered bypass and I'll always go for true bypass for that reason.
Hello Peter! I need your help! I'm having problems with my buffer (Buffer Empress +) and my Drive (Wampler Euphoria) ... (I also use a Diamond Compressor) on set. When I connect the drive does not come out the sound! Is it because it is connected after the BUFFER?? (the buffer is the first and last pedal set ...). What is the correct way to connect these pedals? The drive buffer before or after?? Thank you! Your videos are great and you are a great musician and guitarist! Thiago (Brazil)
Hello Pete Thorn, how to figure out if a certain guitar effects/analog pedal is a buffered pedal or not? ... I just found out through you or this video, that the DS-1X Distortion Pedal by Boss is a buffered pedal, but How would one knows that? ... Hope you can help me figure it out. Thanks a lot.
Alvin Salenga Make sure pedal is off. Then take the battery out of a pedal and DON'T connect it to a power source. Then plug your guitar into it and connect the pedal to an amp. If you hear your guitar, then it is true bypass. If you hear nothing it is buffered.
Horses for courses! True bypass has its place as do buffered pedals. Old wah and fuzz pedals don't have buffers so true bypass is the best route for them unless you want them to roll the high end off when not in use. Also most of the old fuzz circuits sound different with a buffered pedal between them and the guitar. They sound better seeing the high impedance from your pickups. This may be another time true bypass may be desired. Also if some thought is put into the layout of your rig you can have your true bypass pedals with a buffered pedal towards the end of the chain on your pedal board in front of you with a 6ft cable to your board from the guitar and 300ft of cable back to your amp from your board if you like with no ill effects.
I've never heard a strat and a bassman sound so shrill. Good demo explanation of long cable though. Pedals do color sound as well as different brand cables. That should be explored also.
So having a buffered pedal in your pedal chain is a good thing after all. So, the Boss TU tuners are a good thing to have as the first pedal in the chain.
For me, one buffer is all I need. My tuner pedal seems to have a good buffer that handles what you're talking about here. But more than one buffer sucks my tone. I think one buffer to handle the impedance issue, and the rest true bypass is the way to go. If you have two, three or four Boss pedals your tone is gone IMO. Try that. I think thats why people think buffers are bad.
agreed. lots of cheap buffered pedals stacked up take all of the richness out of your sound (even when 'off'). if you like boss style pedals, put them in a true bypass loop strip and have an always-on buffer at the start. best possible solution to all this talk of buffer or bypass
i got two pedals that give me option to buffered my signal...any suggestion?? i planned to buffer my signal at the first chain and then my wah pedal...do i need to buffer it again with my second pedal at the end??
Ive never thought that one buffered pedal at the beginning of your signal chain was ever a bad thing. I do think that boss pedals have as bad a buffer as you can get though! I had a boss CS3 and couldn't keep it because of the coloration to the tone. Just get a good dedicated buffer pedal at the start and you're sorted.
Pete, this question may have already been asked but I'm to tired to read all the comments. What if your running multiple buffered pedals in a chain all with different impedance? To me this is an issue. Your tone will become wobbly and sound similar to having a guitar that intonation is off.... Exp. 1st chain JHS mini buffer, 2nd Klon (which is buffered), 3rd Timeline buffered. Whats your thoughts???
There is an article about AC/DC how they used very short cables to record... Personally in a live setting there are too many variables going on that it's not going to matter what pedals you use or how long/short the cable is when it comes to tone. You have to do your best to get it sounding right and feeling right.
This is interesting pete but why do I get a volume drop with a buffered pedal? but none with my true bypass pedals.. PS... I always just use a 10 foot cable.
so our buffered pedal (i have a combo of tru-b and buf pedals) should ideally be the last pedal on the board so it 'drives' to the amp? ....or the first so it 'sees' the gtr? or does it matter ?
*Question* I have 10 True Bypass pedals in my board and a Boss pedal laying around in my room. Can I take that Boss pedal and put it in my signal chain just for the Buffer on it? If yes, where do I put it in the signal chain?
The Boss Buffer is not bad. Some other pedals' buffers are terrible and degrade your tone way more than 50 or even 100ft of cable. What happens when you stack several tone-sucking buffered pedals in a row?
To me, not just the high end is important to keep in my guitar tone, in fact, with my boss ds1 and short cables, it sucks low mids and bass and takes away a lot of dynamic clarity and deep from my sound. But I don t use long cables, maybe that s why.. There s something I don t get here because the choice I have with long cables looks like - I loose my low frequencies with the boss but keep high end or - loose high end but keep my dynamic...?
2 questions If you use only one pedal, it's better to use a buffer or true bypass pedal? To keep the signal the most straight as possible And the other one, is the same result to put a buffered boss style or a buffer pedal in your signal path?
Pedro Storms The answer is, if you use relatively short cables (say, 2 10 foot cables) you should be fine with a true bypass pedal. If you run over 20" total, you are going to start experiencing some loss of highs- like you hear in this video. In this case, i'd use a buffer or buffered pedal
To you guys that dig the sound of 50 feet of cable more than the 6 foot, or buffered sound- that's what the treble knob on the amp is for! IMHO. I don't want my tone getting sucked by a cable. What happens when that cable breaks or gets lost? They all sound different (when there is no buffer). If you want the warmer tone- start with a strong, predictable signal, and then roll off treble at the amp. Why rely on a cable that's degrading your sound, to provide your tone? Makes no sense to me. I now on my board use a Mission buffered volume pedal close to the start of my chain, and a RJM Y-not at the end that's buffered as well. My PT100 fx loop is also buffered.
Thanks for posting this, Pete. Which brand patch cables (between pedals) and guitar cables are you favoring ?
Couldn't agree more. I f you are used to the sound of 20 feet of cable and introduce 20 more - add a buffer. Maybe you could discuss where to place the buffer. On my rack board I only have a Vox Wah pedal on the board next to the MIDI pedal. I prefer placing the buffer after the Wah. Placing it before the wha - sounds harsh.
Where else could I find this info if you weren’t around? Thanks! Does the cable going through my effects loop to the pedals and back add the same loss as the cable coming from the guitar to the amp?
Thanks for posting this, Pete. So many people have heard from fellow non-experts and hearsay that buffers are bad. Unfortunately, instead of learning something, people will find ways to justify their bad opinions even in the face of evidence.
2:01 6ft cable
2:13 50ft cable
2:46 buffered pedal + 50ft cable
3:12 TBP pedal + 50ft cable
It's easy to understand, your guitar has a big series resistance:
-About 10KOhms in the winding of the pickup
-The tone pot adds 0 to 250KOhms, let's say 0 if you're keeping your clean sound.
-The volume pot adds 0 to 250KOhms, let's say 125KOhms if you're half-way.
And the cable has a linear capacitance, which means the longer the cable the higher the capacitance. Usually it's around 25pF/ft, let's say it's a 10ft cable, you get 250pF.
Now look up what an RC low-pass filter is and you'll see that's exactly what we have here with R=135KOhms and C=250pF. This gives us a cutoff frequency of about 5KHz which means you get half the amplitude you should have at 10KHz, a third at 15KHz and a quarter at 20Khz.
Pin it for posterity.
The use of the frequency spectrum and a very simple test made this an incredibly useful demo. Thanks a lot.
Wow. Thanks Pete and Thomas. You guys really simplified the whole discussion quickly and effectively. Bravo!
Now this is the reason I use a Boss BD-2 in my signal chain, great pedal and conserves the tone! Great video Pete.
I have a Boss TU-2 at the start of my effects chain and a Wampler Clean Buffer at the end with all my true bypass pedals in the middle. Works a treat.
Pete. I have to tell ya. Best and most informative videos on the web. The gear demos are always great but I liked this one even more. Look forward to what's next
I REALLY appreciate this. I've been told so many times about how much better true bypass was and didn't have any reason to rebut those people's claims. This gives me a whole new perspective on pedals and tone. Thanks!
Its not either/or. One is not better than the other. If you have a pedalboard with 10 true bypass pedals on it you are probably going to need a buffer, if you plug into 1 or 2 you probably don't
I used to tech for a guy who, for one thing was insane, and for another would run his wah in a bypass loop and insist on running a 50' cable from his wah to the loop return jack. He did this because, as you demonstrated, the high capacitance rolls off high end which gave the wah a darker, muddier tone which he liked. Kind of a "Cantrell-ish" wah tone years before Cantrell. He was clever, and batshit crazy too. Great demo!
Hi Peter ,nice video explaining the point. I never was confronted to this problem,as I always used 'active guitars' and 'Boss' pedals, until the day I bought my first passive guitar and a few 'un-buffered' pedals. Suddenly, the sound 'sucked'. Tried a bunch of different cables, nothing solved, until, I put back a 'Boss' pedal first in my pedal chain. That's why I now always use one,(even if I don't use it). probably a poor's solution, but it works, every passive guitar got it 's sound back. Then I made some research and understood why. Anw, thank you for clearing the subject. And it's a good video to send to the 'true bypass' fanatics out there. You can also, if your budget allows it, invest in a dedicated buffer or any dedicated box to tackle this problem. Thank you for sharing your experience! Have a great new year!
As always Pete's videos are informative and well produced. Thanks again dude!
Thanks for this excellent video. It was cool to see someone (finally) use some actual data in this discussion. I especially liked the part where you laid the audio waveforms and EQ graphs over the top of each other. Well done!
Scott grove sent me. Very interesting & valuable information. Thank you!
Conclusive video, great job guys.
Thanks for inviting Thomas
thank you for this simple, yet important, explanation.
great channel ! your attention to youtube users' questions is remarkable ! keep it up !
Perfectly and simply demonstrated. Thanks.
Denzilmac thanks!
Thank you for Clearing that up for me.
Keep up the Great Videos
That was very informative to me, thank you so much. It answered some questions I had. People argue this theory all the time with no real proof to back up either side of the argument. Considering the sources, I now feel like I can stand behind this info with confidence.
old dude is like 'yeah man'
Hi Pete, thanks for the vídeo. It's a very tricky subject with many unclear answers and explanations but the graphics made very easy to notice The signal loss. I believe that, in the end it, will depend on each ones preferences of sound to have a good mix of buffered and true bypass gear.
Missed this old video,Great stuff.
True Bypass means the circuits of the pedal are not in your chain while the pedal is OFF so its not supposed to take anything from your tone. Cable length causes line loss which is a different issue. I dont get why people are confusing the two.
It doesn’t work like that.
Pete you rock!
Thanks for being a great teacher.
Dude, FINALLY somebody doing a comparison with an analyzer, rather than just ears (which my the whay should be enough in this video). Well done Pete!
Great comparison! Thanks for posting!
Amen man. I got a Mission Engineering Volume Pedal specifically for its buffer and the first day I plugged it in, I really heard my amp for the first time since I started using pedals. It restored my tone to where it sounded close enough to playing straight into the amp, something that I lost drastically with a long effects chain.
Another use for buffered pedals is they seem to act as a good "buffer" between two pedals that sound bad together. I used to put my wah next to a BOSS ST-2 and a few fuzz pedals and one would make the other sound horrible. Tossing another BOSS pedal in between the two seemed to solve the problem.
I believe in a *high quality buffer at the beginning*, then as many true bypass pedals and low capacitance connector cords as needed. Using this method, I have run through 13 pedals with no audible degradation.
Carl Hardwick Which buffer do you use? The first pedal you plug your guitar into is first in the chain?
I have seen some guys use Boss Tuners as their buffers. Place a TU-2 or a TU-3 first in your chain and then to your volume. The tuner has an "always tuning" mode that lets you tune AND play so you don't have to ever fool with the pedal.
JHS and T1M both make stand alone buffers if you already have a good tuner. Good luck, and I hope this helps! :)
Scott grove sent me. Thanks for sharing/demonstrating this info.
**Peace
It doesn't matter where the buffer goes in a chain in order to convert to low impedance, just that it is done at some point. It should ideally be before long cable runs, or as early as possible. Most pros who use them put them first. However there are circuits, like some fuzz pedals and wahs, which "desire" or require a high impedance signal to function at their designed maximum output. They like to "see" the guitar directly in order to achieve max processing results. Otherwise there's no rule.
An intelligent and to the point video. Thanks for keeping the narration down to a minimum, show it don’t tell it
Just my opinion, but I like the capacitance that is created by a cable on the hi end especially. When Pete played the examples I immediately thought the long cable sounded better eq wise. I usually always roll off my high end on my tone control because I like a darker sound. This is why I like true bypass pedals. By the way I use active pickups as well which totally changes the equation of need for buffers. Once again it is up to the individuals taste. Nice interview and very informative.
Definitely thinking of getting a JHS little black buffer for my last power jack on my board haha!
Yes, buffers help with the high end on long cable runs.
Short cables...
I have a 12 ft cable into 4 pedals, and a 3 ft cable going to the amp. My ears tell me that every Boss pedal I've stuck in the chain AFFECTS the tone. Ultimately, you can't let anyone else tell you what sounds right/wrong with your rig. Do all the research you can, but in the end, you have to listen to your ears.
1sainteve1 Hallelujah brother! Totally agree.
Yes and no, humans are very good at fooling them self, if we expect a change its more likely we are going to hear a change, even where nothing have been changed.
Well, you could eliminate the 1st and 3rd ones (by running the Timeline in TB) if you are having an issue.
Great video. I have 8 pedals on my board at the moment. All the pedals are true bypass and I am running george L cables on the whole set up. I have a few pedals that are buffered but I keep the buffer turned off. I have a RADIAL Dragster load corrector just before my delay pedal. In my experience the cable was always the problem if I had tone loss. This will always be the case when running cable in and out of pedals. I think you should have a buffer somewhere in your chain. Thanks Tim
VERY informational, thank you!
Only depends on whether or not you have effects that work better with the high impedance guitar signal. Germanium fuzzes and most wah pedals are like that. Putting it last, first, or after your fuzz and wah all yield the same effect. It just needs to be there somewhere for the long cable runs. I would only worry about buffers if you have over 30' of cable or more than 5-6 TB pedals. JMHO.
With certain guitars, and certain rigs, the treble roll-off is actually an improvement. So, no. Some guys use large cable capacitance to their advantage to dull a high treble rig. The important thing to keep in mind is that there are no rules. Whatever YOU think sounds the best, truly DOES sound the best. It's YOUR SOUND. There are 5 million+ guitarists, and with them 5 million+ opinions on guitar tone. Ya gotta go with what pleases your ears and makes you want to play that rig. You're the boss.
I like the idea of TBP but with long cable runs the change in tone is an issue so I think a compromise works well, I have a buffered pedal at the start of my pedal board, usually a Boss tuner, and at least one more towards the end of the signal chain, usually a chorus or a delay, this seems to work pretty well.
Hey guys, this is my current signal chain :
Guitar>T-Rex Phaser>Wylde Wah>Deluxe Signa Comp>Spark Booster>Custom Badass OD>Sovereign Distortion>Big Muff>Dunlop Volume Pedal>BOSS Tremolo>BOSS DD-7>Hall of Fame>Amp
The question I have about a buffer, if I already have two BOSS pedals at the end of the chain, it is enough...? Do I still require a Buffer at the beginning of the signal chain...? Yes I do get a bit of treble bleed with my setup. I run between 15ft to 20ft of cable, not including all those patch cables in between.
Please advice me...!! Thanks in advance...!!
sure, same thing. If all your pedals are TBP then you can add a dedicated buffer.
An even better solution would be that dedicated buffer Kitarist88 mentioned so you have control over full TBP or buffered.
put a buffer or buffered pedal as early in the chain as you can- if you have a fuzz, you might want to put the buffered pedal AFTER it- but if not, then it can be 1st in chain! Then you will only have the capacitance of the 1st 20 foot cable affecting your tone. Your sound with a good buffered pedal on your board should be very similar to plugging that same 20 foot cable directly into the amp.
Pete Thorn sorry I know this is a super old vid. I have a germanium fuzz face-ish pedal (shanks 4K) first in my chain/before buffer. I am thinking about ordering a dry bell vibe machine and am wondering if I should run it before or after the fuzz. I’ve read that the vibe effect is more pronounced/articulate pre-fuzz but I’m worried that vibe, when engaged, will negatively affect the fuzz tone. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
@@myndzi9926 I don't really know about the Drybell Vibe Machine but I would say as a rule of thumb germanium transistor fuzzes, especially fuzz face type ones need to be first in your chain to be able to do that clean-up-with-your-guitar's-volume-knob thing they do.
Well I will agree with you that the high end does come back with the use of the buffered boss pedal, but it's at a cost. Switching back and forth between the two sounds, I found a noticeable difference in clarity - like going from FLAC to 128mbit mp3. Maybe that is the price of using a digital buffer, and perhaps there are better buffers out there to resolve this problem, but to me boss pedals always muffle my tone.
Great demo, thanks, Pete. It would be great to talk more about what and where to put a buffer... I have a 20 foot cable to my pedal board, going through an EB volume and 8 pedals, most (?) of which are TBP, but no Boss pedals. I still think straight into my amps sounds much more alive, especially with archtops and single coils. I have some work to do, figuring out which, if any of my pedals is buffered. Wonder what the smallest, good quality buffer pedal would be. Thanks, very helpful!
Thanks man, good info/advice ;)
If you have a 10' cable and 2 pedals, and then run a 10' or less cable to the amp, true bypass is no doubt an improvement over a buffer. However, if you are assembling a stage rig complete with 60-100' cable runs, you absolutely need buffering somewhere. It all depends on the rig. True bypass is what it is. It preserves the natural tone to the max possible where cable capacitance is not an audible issue. Once it does become an issue, as demonstrated here, a buffer can preserve your high end.
Gave me something to think about when I buy my nxt pedal
Easy solution, shorter instrument cords to & from each device. Hey, if you have an open back cabinet, losing some of that high end might be preferable as signal loss for tone. Saves you from having to compensate & dial it out & away with the EQ ?
If that's the case- wouldn't you rather just turn down the treble on your amp, or lower the tone pot on your guitar- rather than have the cable length doing some mystery lossy stuff to your tone? I don't want anything robbing me of tone- I prefer having the true sound of the guitar, and then adjusting the tone on the amp!!!
Hey Pete,
Great Info
Thank you
Having a problem in the beginning and maybe end of your chain is a great idea, the problem is when you have 15 pedals in your pedalboard and they all have buffers.
Most Boss pedals actually have 2 buffers, input and output, so that's 30 buffers you go through before reaching the amp.
My cheap alternative is having a boss pedal in the beginning of my chain like a TU-3 and another boss pedal like an RV-5 or a DD-3 in the end.
What is the input impedance of a guitar amplifier? I imagine it is as high as a buffered pedal to preserve the signal quality. The preamp must have a buffer. If you can keep the same cable length it doesn’t do you any good to use a buffered pedal, since the voltage drop of the signal is going to be mostly determined by the input impedance of the preamp anyways.
From what i understand its a cable mater.
So i'd like to make you a question mr Thorn.
If i use a balanced cable i will still have these impedance issues which effect the guitar tone?
Balanced signal cancels noise but unfortunately has no effect on the capacitance low pass filtering. Longer cable runs are not so much of a problem for microphones because they are built low-impedance for the very same reason. There seem to be low-impedance guitar pickups but I don't know enough to tell about them.
the things that i hate with a true bypass pedal is the "dreggg" sound when you turn on it. now, I love buffered pedal so much ! horay :D
Would the buffer make less difference if the 50 foot cable went from the guitar to the buffer versus the 6 foot cable from the guitar to buffer?
I always wondered if there would be any signal loss, putting pedals in the effects loop..? Does that have as much as a dramatic effect on tonality or signal loss.. When comparing the effect of signal loss from front of the amp?
Thanks for the video! But everyone only compares true bypass with only one buffer, how does it compare when you have 3 or 4 buffered pedals in your chain? And everyone suffers from that! Would it be possible to make a video on multiple buffers?
Alright, but what about for home use where you might have two 6 foot cables and a couple of pedals? I guess I want to know whether a buffered pedal can be detrimental in short cable scenarios.
Thanks, Pete, thanks, Zach, appreciate the help! I figured out that the TC Hall of Fame that I have at the end of my chain has a switchable buffer, so I reset that , but haven't tried it yet. I wondered about tuners as well, but just got a Korg Pitchblack tuner, so Ihate to replace it so soon. Any experience with the EP boosters from Xotic? They're small and if transparent enough, maybe that would be a good solution without using a dedicated buffer, like the SolidGold or Wampler. Thanks!
Thanks, Zach!
A doubt of mine - To "recover" this lost signal and hi-ends, the buffered pedal has to be the first one on your effects chain or only has to be there no matter where?
Thanks!
People say to put the Buffered Pedal first, because it will preserve the hi-end from that point forward. So, if your buffered pedal is at the beginning of the chain, that will be the shortest amount of cable, and therefore the least amount of tone loss. Can your buffered pedal be the 2nd or 3rd etc? and still benefit your tone? Yes! ...But now there is more cable between the buffer and your guitar.
So having a simple Hi-Z 1:1 buffer as the first thing that you plug your guitar into would be a good thing, right? This is what I do. And I always play with the same (high quality, low capacitance) guitar lead going to that buffer, whether live (not that often any more) or in the studio.
Well, a buffer at the start and true bypass at the rest of the chain would also work
Yes! Buffers in pedals were fine when guitarists only used 1 or 2 effects. Try putting 6 buffered pedals in line and listen to what that does to your tone! 🤮 Every buffer is (or should be) a 1-to-1 signal amplifier, and every buffer introduces a little bit of noise, no matter how transparent it is. Also the switches and resistors even in “true bypass” pedals can change the impedance and/or capacitance of your signal path.
Though it wasn't said in the video, the idea surely would be be to have mostly true bypass pedals and one or two buffers? Since too many buffers will likely colour your tone. A lot of boss pedals have pretty bad buffers too.
Dear Pete,
I love that guitar sound ! What is the cab/speaker you were using?
thanks ! ;)
very informative, thx!
So it should be true bypass with a buffered input? I cannot see why not both.
What if your tone is being sucked from having five or six Boss-type buffered pedals in a chain... will a dedicated line-driver make any difference?
My board starts out with neutrik Jack in, zvex fuzz, buffer, volume and then to a loopmaster patch pedal that has all of my pedals routed individually. So in master bypass mode I'm literally running through three pedals, buffered back to my amp. I couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
Pete... Do you use a volume Pedal? I use a ernie ball to tune on stage... but I find they break really often either with the pot going bad or the pin sliding out. I've gone through a bunch. Any suggestions?
Buffer is like adding salt to the food you're served; it makes it taste better but you can't get rid of it if you didn't want it. True bypass is like being served the dish without salt, it doesn't taste as good, but if you didn't want the salt, you have the choice now. So, that's my beef with buffered bypass and I'll always go for true bypass for that reason.
Hello Peter!
I need your help! I'm having problems with my buffer (Buffer Empress +) and my Drive (Wampler Euphoria) ... (I also use a Diamond Compressor) on set.
When I connect the drive does not come out the sound! Is it because it is connected after the BUFFER?? (the buffer is the first and last pedal set ...). What is the correct way to connect these pedals? The drive buffer before or after?? Thank you! Your videos are great and you are a great musician and guitarist!
Thiago (Brazil)
Hello Pete Thorn, how to figure out if a certain guitar effects/analog pedal is a buffered pedal or not? ... I just found out through you or this video, that the DS-1X Distortion Pedal by Boss is a buffered pedal, but How would one knows that? ... Hope you can help me figure it out. Thanks a lot.
Alvin Salenga Make sure pedal is off. Then take the battery out of a pedal and DON'T connect it to a power source. Then plug your guitar into it and connect the pedal to an amp. If you hear your guitar, then it is true bypass. If you hear nothing it is buffered.
Oh really gotta try that... Thanks man. I appreciate it.
Horses for courses!
True bypass has its place as do buffered pedals.
Old wah and fuzz pedals don't have buffers so true bypass is the best route for them unless you want them to roll the high end off when not in use.
Also most of the old fuzz circuits sound different with a buffered pedal between them and the guitar. They sound better seeing the high impedance from your pickups. This may be another time true bypass may be desired.
Also if some thought is put into the layout of your rig you can have your true bypass pedals with a buffered pedal towards the end of the chain on your pedal board in front of you with a 6ft cable to your board from the guitar and 300ft of cable back to your amp from your board if you like with no ill effects.
Horses of courses? What u know bout that dark tower?
I've never heard a strat and a bassman sound so shrill. Good demo explanation of long cable though. Pedals do color sound as well as different brand cables. That should be explored also.
What if you have more than one buffered pedal and/or use a buffered pedal with short cables? Do multiple buffers compound treble?
So having a buffered pedal in your pedal chain is a good thing after all. So, the Boss TU tuners are a good thing to have as the first pedal in the chain.
For me, one buffer is all I need. My tuner pedal seems to have a good buffer that handles what you're talking about here. But more than one buffer sucks my tone.
I think one buffer to handle the impedance issue, and the rest true bypass is the way to go. If you have two, three or four Boss pedals your tone is gone IMO. Try that. I think thats why people think buffers are bad.
agreed. lots of cheap buffered pedals stacked up take all of the richness out of your sound (even when 'off'). if you like boss style pedals, put them in a true bypass loop strip and have an always-on buffer at the start. best possible solution to all this talk of buffer or bypass
i got two pedals that give me option to buffered my signal...any suggestion?? i planned to buffer my signal at the first chain and then my wah pedal...do i need to buffer it again with my second pedal at the end??
Ive never thought that one buffered pedal at the beginning of your signal chain was ever a bad thing. I do think that boss pedals have as bad a buffer as you can get though!
I had a boss CS3 and couldn't keep it because of the coloration to the tone. Just get a good dedicated buffer pedal at the start and you're sorted.
GSUS HC Hi. Would a polytune 3 act as a good buffer at the start of my chain? Or even mid chain connected to a passive volume pedal? Thanks!
please tell me you did more of these with Mr Nordegg ? :)
thanks!!
Pete, this question may have already been asked but I'm to tired to read all the comments.
What if your running multiple buffered pedals in a chain all with different impedance? To me this is an issue. Your tone will become wobbly and sound similar to having a guitar that intonation is off.... Exp. 1st chain JHS mini buffer, 2nd Klon (which is buffered), 3rd Timeline buffered. Whats your thoughts???
There is an article about AC/DC how they used very short cables to record... Personally in a live setting there are too many variables going on that it's not going to matter what pedals you use or how long/short the cable is when it comes to tone. You have to do your best to get it sounding right and feeling right.
This is interesting pete but why do I get a volume drop with a buffered pedal? but none with my true bypass pedals.. PS... I always just use a 10 foot cable.
so our buffered pedal (i have a combo of tru-b and buf pedals) should ideally be the last pedal on the board so it 'drives' to the amp? ....or the first so it 'sees' the gtr? or does it matter ?
Are those Adam Monitors there? What do you recommend for home studio monitors?
wow, I've been deceived by all this true bypass talk over the years, glad I saw this video
*Question*
I have 10 True Bypass pedals in my board and a Boss pedal laying around in my room.
Can I take that Boss pedal and put it in my signal chain just for the Buffer on it?
If yes, where do I put it in the signal chain?
Sure
So true bypass is bull!
What cables do you use Pete?
The Boss Buffer is not bad. Some other pedals' buffers are terrible and degrade your tone way more than 50 or even 100ft of cable. What happens when you stack several tone-sucking buffered pedals in a row?
What about just buying a seperate buffer pedal and put it at the start or end of the chain? :)
To me, not just the high end is important to keep in my guitar tone, in fact, with my boss ds1 and short cables, it sucks low mids and bass and takes away a lot of dynamic clarity and deep from my sound. But I don t use long cables, maybe that s why.. There s something I don t get here because the choice I have with long cables looks like - I loose my low frequencies with the boss but keep high end or - loose high end but keep my dynamic...?
I've never been fortunate enough to play a wireless guitar. How does the signal change with that vrs cabled guitars.
2 questions
If you use only one pedal, it's better to use a buffer or true bypass pedal? To keep the signal the most straight as possible
And the other one, is the same result to put a buffered boss style or a buffer pedal in your signal path?
Pedro Storms The answer is, if you use relatively short cables (say, 2 10 foot cables) you should be fine with a true bypass pedal. If you run over 20" total, you are going to start experiencing some loss of highs- like you hear in this video. In this case, i'd use a buffer or buffered pedal
+Pete Thorn Thanks! 😊✌️