I used to think like this, coming from Tekken. Now that my muscle memory for execution comes easier to me, I'm able to make reads and adapt a lot easier, and start to see the parts of my opponent's neutral that I need to adjust around. It just takes time
@@zazenbo I never claim that I have to focus on execution during the match. Your argument is that you develop muscle memory, which lets you focus on things outside of execution during the match. My claim is regarding the importance of particular types of skills. Imagine a low-level player who is pretty bad at everything. Now, duplicate that person so you have two identical players. You tell one of the players to spend a week practicing execution. You tell the other player to spend a week learning how to adapt to his opponent. If those players fight, the one who practiced execution will win. That is how Melee is balanced.
I play a very defensive Falcon, mostly evading players that use a lot of tech, and using good shields and rolls to net me openings. I can't compete with the Foxes that go 200mph. But I can still win the games because I know my punishes for those characters. I may tank a lot of damage (I even see being waveshined up to 40% as an unblockable of sorts because my SDI is bad) but my ability to take center stage and keep it is often better than those that are trying too hard to execute too much tech. In a way, I play "lame." But again, I come from Tekken, specifically Tekken 7 where avoiding the opponent and waiting for whiffs was the name of the game (or conditioning whiffs, even) I do see where you're coming from. I get that players that focus on tech will be ahead in the game. But having good movement and fundamentals can and will beat out too much tech, if the player has patience. If I just sit and go "alright, I'm being rushed down." and hold strong, I can reversal my opponent. I can condition them to jump in. I can condition them to follow me to ledge. I can bait out their short hops. If I begin overshooting my aerials, I can bait out their options and land a grab. It's possible. When I came into the game, I saw Falco and Fox as being unfair in neutral (and they are,) but it is possible to just obliterate someone that out-techs you. Every time. They'll get mad that they're getting beaten too. I do see where you're coming from. The game is contingent upon knowing a baseline of tech in order to play neutral. Its skill floor for being able to compete at all is fairly high. But once you reach a small amount of tech, you truly can start to play the game, as long as you don't try to play in a way that doesn't suit your execution abilities. You know? Hopefully, I'm making sense. I think you have a fair point too.
I think your 100% correct that melee is more about having good execution than out playing your oppenet(edit: out thinking your opponent is maybe a better way to put this), except for the very top level of play. Then being able to execute all the hard tech will allow you to have more and better options with how to out play your opponent, but you both need to have access to those options in order to "rotate through them" like you would in in a normal 2D game. But getting there is hard, and some characters are better at it than others, Unironically you may want to try peach/puff(although it looks like you have messed with puff some, and peach has quite a bit of her own tech thats very hard). Obviously I like Melee, and I have 100% the opposite reaction to execution. I have been learning MVC2 for a couple months now, then I switch to playing 2xko buring the Alpha lab, and let tell you, I found 2xko, extremely boring in very large part because executions was so bare bones. And Returning to MVC2 has only made me appreciate execution even more.
I disagree. At the top level, it's still about having better execution than your opponent, and, in most cases, it's about limiting your opponent's options, reducing the importance of adaptation even more. In the most extreme example, you have Tech Chasing. If you aren't good enough to Tech Chase on reaction, you have to adapt to the opponent's tech options. If you are good enough, you don't have to adapt anymore - you just react. There's a difference between a "guess" (rotating through options" and a "read" (adapting to the opponent). My website goes into more details regarding this difference.
@@Moqlnkn I understand the difference between a guess and a read, and Melee is read heavy game because of the power both players have in the 2 way mixup is immense and make them *extremely* complex and layered :P when it comes to things like tech chasing, thats was kind of my point about character choice, and kind of the origin of 20XX, some characters are more powerful with better hands, But Fox, being the poster boy for that style of play, is actually considerably weaker in the current meta, much more so than years past, And Yoshi, an Extremely read heavy character because of the way double jump armor and parry work is performing extremely well right now, better than ever. Melee is an extremely dynamic system and actually supports both styles of play. Also, I just am not convinced its that true that "better hands" have *that* much of an advantage ,they have some, but like, its kind of a meme that there is an army of "net play species" that have amazing tech skill, but still kind of suck because they arn't good at the "thinking" part of the game. I'm not saying you should like Melee, especially if you don't really enjoy the execution aspect(because that is really important) but generally I think your wrong about how important execution actually is to winning and I'm not even talking about like, top 100 level of play, but even like just "good".
@@Moqlnkn sorry I meant 2ways as in, 1way is the attacker, and the other way is the defender as opposed to the binary of success fail(baiting a DP/shimmy/meaty/frame trap/tick throw/ect) in normal 2d games(most of the time) in melee both players interact multiple times before things return to neutral. Its also continuous is most cases meaning that the mix up continues even after one player gets hit, an example being am I going to DI left or right or for survival or to try and tech, or out to try and end the combo but give up screen position, and you make this decision every hit of the "combo", and there could be *way* more options, which can create many many layers based on what each players wants/habits. and Neutral/oki/advantaged interactions can all be equally complex. Not two ways as in high/low or Strike/throw.
There's nothing stopping you from playing other players except yourself... and the lack of other players. Worst case scenario, you lose horribly, your opponent leaves after one match, and you have one replay to analyze.
Playing KoF competitively in America is a real chore for sure. I'm that one guy that prefers kof 14 because of the roster, stages and online lobbies. That game is awesome, but I can't find a single match on PC even
Online melee community vehemently defend this game like its the second coming. How dare you offer criticism to their gem. I play rivals instead to avoid all this. I dont like melee for the same reasons as you
I used to think like this, coming from Tekken. Now that my muscle memory for execution comes easier to me, I'm able to make reads and adapt a lot easier, and start to see the parts of my opponent's neutral that I need to adjust around. It just takes time
That's irrelevant to what I'm talking about.
Elaborate
@@zazenbo I never claim that I have to focus on execution during the match. Your argument is that you develop muscle memory, which lets you focus on things outside of execution during the match.
My claim is regarding the importance of particular types of skills. Imagine a low-level player who is pretty bad at everything. Now, duplicate that person so you have two identical players. You tell one of the players to spend a week practicing execution. You tell the other player to spend a week learning how to adapt to his opponent. If those players fight, the one who practiced execution will win. That is how Melee is balanced.
I play a very defensive Falcon, mostly evading players that use a lot of tech, and using good shields and rolls to net me openings. I can't compete with the Foxes that go 200mph. But I can still win the games because I know my punishes for those characters. I may tank a lot of damage (I even see being waveshined up to 40% as an unblockable of sorts because my SDI is bad) but my ability to take center stage and keep it is often better than those that are trying too hard to execute too much tech. In a way, I play "lame." But again, I come from Tekken, specifically Tekken 7 where avoiding the opponent and waiting for whiffs was the name of the game (or conditioning whiffs, even)
I do see where you're coming from. I get that players that focus on tech will be ahead in the game. But having good movement and fundamentals can and will beat out too much tech, if the player has patience.
If I just sit and go "alright, I'm being rushed down." and hold strong, I can reversal my opponent. I can condition them to jump in. I can condition them to follow me to ledge. I can bait out their short hops. If I begin overshooting my aerials, I can bait out their options and land a grab.
It's possible.
When I came into the game, I saw Falco and Fox as being unfair in neutral (and they are,) but it is possible to just obliterate someone that out-techs you. Every time. They'll get mad that they're getting beaten too.
I do see where you're coming from. The game is contingent upon knowing a baseline of tech in order to play neutral. Its skill floor for being able to compete at all is fairly high. But once you reach a small amount of tech, you truly can start to play the game, as long as you don't try to play in a way that doesn't suit your execution abilities. You know? Hopefully, I'm making sense. I think you have a fair point too.
@@zazenbo "Movement and fundamentals" are not adaptation. I ALSO don't want to win a game because I'm better at movement than my opponent.
I think your 100% correct that melee is more about having good execution than out playing your oppenet(edit: out thinking your opponent is maybe a better way to put this), except for the very top level of play. Then being able to execute all the hard tech will allow you to have more and better options with how to out play your opponent, but you both need to have access to those options in order to "rotate through them" like you would in in a normal 2D game. But getting there is hard, and some characters are better at it than others, Unironically you may want to try peach/puff(although it looks like you have messed with puff some, and peach has quite a bit of her own tech thats very hard). Obviously I like Melee, and I have 100% the opposite reaction to execution. I have been learning MVC2 for a couple months now, then I switch to playing 2xko buring the Alpha lab, and let tell you, I found 2xko, extremely boring in very large part because executions was so bare bones. And Returning to MVC2 has only made me appreciate execution even more.
I disagree. At the top level, it's still about having better execution than your opponent, and, in most cases, it's about limiting your opponent's options, reducing the importance of adaptation even more. In the most extreme example, you have Tech Chasing. If you aren't good enough to Tech Chase on reaction, you have to adapt to the opponent's tech options. If you are good enough, you don't have to adapt anymore - you just react.
There's a difference between a "guess" (rotating through options" and a "read" (adapting to the opponent). My website goes into more details regarding this difference.
@@Moqlnkn I understand the difference between a guess and a read, and Melee is read heavy game because of the power both players have in the 2 way mixup is immense and make them *extremely* complex and layered :P when it comes to things like tech chasing, thats was kind of my point about character choice, and kind of the origin of 20XX, some characters are more powerful with better hands, But Fox, being the poster boy for that style of play, is actually considerably weaker in the current meta, much more so than years past, And Yoshi, an Extremely read heavy character because of the way double jump armor and parry work is performing extremely well right now, better than ever. Melee is an extremely dynamic system and actually supports both styles of play. Also, I just am not convinced its that true that "better hands" have *that* much of an advantage ,they have some, but like, its kind of a meme that there is an army of "net play species" that have amazing tech skill, but still kind of suck because they arn't good at the "thinking" part of the game. I'm not saying you should like Melee, especially if you don't really enjoy the execution aspect(because that is really important) but generally I think your wrong about how important execution actually is to winning and I'm not even talking about like, top 100 level of play, but even like just "good".
@@Thepryomaniac It's impossible for a 2-way mixup to be "complex and layered."
@@Moqlnkn sorry I meant 2ways as in, 1way is the attacker, and the other way is the defender as opposed to the binary of success fail(baiting a DP/shimmy/meaty/frame trap/tick throw/ect) in normal 2d games(most of the time) in melee both players interact multiple times before things return to neutral. Its also continuous is most cases meaning that the mix up continues even after one player gets hit, an example being am I going to DI left or right or for survival or to try and tech, or out to try and end the combo but give up screen position, and you make this decision every hit of the "combo", and there could be *way* more options, which can create many many layers based on what each players wants/habits. and Neutral/oki/advantaged interactions can all be equally complex. Not two ways as in high/low or Strike/throw.
@@Thepryomaniac That is 90% of the King of Fighters XIII.
I recently bought KOFXIII on steam, but honestly I don't feel ready to play against other online.
There's nothing stopping you from playing other players except yourself... and the lack of other players. Worst case scenario, you lose horribly, your opponent leaves after one match, and you have one replay to analyze.
Playing KoF competitively in America is a real chore for sure. I'm that one guy that prefers kof 14 because of the roster, stages and online lobbies. That game is awesome, but I can't find a single match on PC even
That's because KoF XIV is absolute garbage at a high level. Everyone either moved back to XIII or moved up to XV.
@@Moqlnkn i can't even say i disagree because i remember watching those matches... benimaru 2b2b max mode, shun-ei was a pest etc.
Online melee community vehemently defend this game like its the second coming. How dare you offer criticism to their gem.
I play rivals instead to avoid all this. I dont like melee for the same reasons as you