I just learned of this super famous young lady today and I’m struck by how she sounds just like me. I love to create thought experiments and social experiments and some time ago I asked myself how would I respond to being super-famous and I came to the answer of how I would be an “Anti-Celebrity” just as she is. I wouldn’t take pictures with alleged fans unless I was at work because it’s best for my mental health not too and yours too. Think about it… In what universe would it be good for any of us to anticipate a random person wanting to take a picture with us? The very thought of becoming that kind of person gives me the ick. So I wasn’t mad at all to hear her say the same. Fans want celebrities to do what they like even if it makes celebrities not like themselves and that’s not cool at all, family. Fans can depersonalize celebrities and celebrities can depersonalize fans by treating them like they have a hive mind and aren’t individuals.
I’m saying everywhere I can that we shouldn’t have to say “We owe her an apology” 20 years later. Britney didn’t deserve that and neither does Chappell Roan.
Exactly. If we keep owing women in the entertainment industry apology after apology, maybe it’s time to make a change. Maybe apologies don’t matter that much when people insist on making the same harmful mistakes over and over again. Maybe it’s time to be better.
yeah but these people have so much money and privilege they aren't real and shouldn't complain and are just awful vapid celebrities and fuck them for like....wanting to make music (BIG SARCASM TAG HERE) yeah you can be private jet privileged but still have like...feelings and stuff
When people say that celebrities etc should just deal with abuse and stalking because "they can hire bodyguards" etc, it sounds like just another way of moving the blame and responsibility away from themselves as a mob.
Imagine how those same people would react when one of them caught twelve grams of fast copper and steel because he wouldn't leave a celebrity's daughter well enough alone.
Okay slightly different direction but I realized people are batsheet crazy when I got accused of being "mean" and "ungrateful" to a problematic company that makes video games. Imagine that weird energy focused on a celebrity
It’s literally “they were asking for it” in different words. “Hire bodyguards” is like “wear a longer skirt”. To me, it seems like this cycle of “beloved by all” -> “tragic downfall” is especially pronounced with female celebrities, or at least it was during the time when I had any awareness of these things. Like it seems like every actress in my age bracket who won any kind of major award had a period where it was fashionable to hate them. I guess being a public figure and a woman is a double-whammy in terms of others feeling entitled to their person.
People need to remember that her initial video on boundaries was a result of her being grabbed and kissed without consent. A horrific situation nobody should ever have to go through. I also wonder to what extent her inability to adhere to the image of a “perfect victim” by being vocal and angry and refusing to conform to celebrity culture fuels online anger and hate.
All of this makes me think of that one tweet that's like "everyone is treating real people like fictional characters and fictional characters like real people." Like, a celebrity rightly wants to be left alone when they're not doing their job the way a cashier or an accountant would, and we get *incandescently* angry at them, but someone dares to do something with a video game character that we don't like and we get mad at them for that, too. It's bizarre and terrifying watching the BG3 fandom get so protective of Astarion and get mad at people for fanart and fanfiction that they think is morally wrong while waiting for baited breath for his voice actor to have a "downfall" when Astarion is a figment of someone's imagination made of code and Neil Newbon is a living, breathing person. It's horrifying how differently characters and the people who play them are treated. People who are famous for art are still just... people doing their jobs. I'm autistic; I do understand being very obsessed with characters, books, music, games, etc. But even I understand a) characters are not real and can't be hurt but 2) the people who made them are real, can't be hurt, and are doing *their jobs*, even if they're lucky enough to be paid for their passion unlike so many others. Having more empathy for characters and being desperate to protect them from "mistreatment" but being desperate to watch real people get hurt is... scary?
I’m also autistic and Baldur’s Gate 3 is my special interest right now and I need to chime in. My brain has decided to fixate on Astarion specifically because I relate a lot to his character arc… and I am so tired of the discourse already. And not only does this quickly turn into diluting very serious words and concepts, it always boils down to infantilizing abuse survivors, which is not only insulting but reprehensible. Jokes on them, because the things they find morally repugnant are part of my healing. I’m lucky that in my corner of the Internet, I can avoid The Discourse™️ pretty easily. Outside of that, my time in the fandom has been very pleasant. I know that fandom culture as a whole is slowly becoming more puritan and it’s genuinely terrifying. Policing people’s art, as well as treating fictional characters like real people and treating real people like fictional characters is rapidly becoming the norm and I’m worried what that means for the future.
Chappell performed in a small-ish venue in my city less than a year ago, $50 tickets. Today, she could headline a festival. In just a few months, she went from being relatively famous to completely losing the ability to exist anywhere without being recognised and stopped by fans. Anyone would struggle with such a sudden rise to fame (let alone the creepy and entitled stan behaviour). "But she's wealthy!" is such a cop-out for the disturbing lack of empathy she's being shown.
Your comment is written as if I’m supposed to feel bad for her that she’s famous. It’s distasteful. There’s so many people in America who are struggling to meet ends meet and she’s literally crying that people recognize her? Does she want to switch lives with a struggling American. I don’t think so.
@@MaffyTaffyHaffyShe’s a “rising” pop star, we don’t even know if she’s rich. Emphasis on the rising part, because she’s been in the spotlight for less than a year. Regardless, what does that have to do with the intense hate campaign against her very normal opinions? Chappell Roan is not directly or indirectly aiding class disparity, you just don’t like her. Which is fine, just don’t claim some moral high ground on it
@@MaffyTaffyHaffyAlso she’s not crying over being recognized, she’s frustrated that her sister’s job was doxxed and her family is unsafe. You don’t even know what you’re upset about
@@MaffyTaffyHaffy I think you read what you wanted to read in your mind and comprehended absolutely nothing. This comment makes NO sense lmao. You just want a reason to hate her and your “reason” does not exist
It's especially gross to see people treat her like that when we literally JUST went through the Britney renaissance within the last few years. But, then again, society seems to have the memory of goldfish.
The thing is with her setting her boundaries up so early, you would think people would understand that. Considering the ones who claim to be big fans of Britney Spears and such. Also the fact that they don't understand how these singers feel about stalking. Don't they watch interviews, whenever any singer says they feel uncomfortable with that.
The thing about that with people who happen to be chronically online, is they usually think they can be a good propieter of dictating when a person will explain how their mental health.
What I'm trying to say is, people can't exactly always see mental health, or even understand it. Also expecting everyone to accommodate to everyone at all times.
people didn't see britney just as an individual finally regaining her agency after years of abuse and control, they saw it all through the lens of a "comeback story". in their eyes, she's still a performer acting out a narrative for them.
Just going to come to the defence of goldfish, who actually have pretty standard fish memories, and remember social interactions with other goldfish for years. Society's memory only lasts until the next headline.
I think it's funny how my neurodiversity spared me of this. While I got super obsessed with characters growing up (and even now, honestly), my reaction to celebrities was always "that's a stranger, I don't know them". I actually didn't fully grasp parasocial relationships until you linked it to the way a person can get about characters in a book and I had a lightbulb moment. And... that's TERRIFYING. So that's where real person fanfic comes from???? edit: neurodivergency? idk, english isn't my first language
yeah, that's literally where real person fics come from. i never understood it either. then again, i'm also ND, it's still weird as hell though like i'm weird, but not real person smut reading/writing weird 😓
Re: terminology - "neurodivergence" would work here. Neurodiverse/Neurodiversity only really apply to groups, as it connotes how people within a group are neurologically different from one another, while neurodivergence is about how an individual differs from the majority
Maybe it’s a common theme amongst us neurodivergent people? I’ve never had a parasocial relationship either. I can like a persons work, and sometimes think that they can potentially be a good/ok person. At the same time I know that I don’t know them at all, so my presumption can just as well be wrong. I believe I’ve had a lot of fantasy character obsessions too 😂 But not after I hit 25 unfortunately 🥹 Now life is just a little bit too boring 😂
It's fine, those of us for whom English is our first language don't know which words to use sometimes, either. It doesn't make a lot of sense sometimes.
Honestly I must've got the worst of both worlds because I can't understand parasocial relationships OR the way so many other neurodivergent people feel about fictional characters and universes... I don't lead a soulless obsession-free life by any means but I don't think of characters as real people any more than I think of celebrities as people that I know? Maybe I'm just confused but the way so many of us describe feeling like characters in books are their family and friends doesn't resonate with me, I feel like my family and friends are my family and friends (though to be honest mostly my family are my friends), and my books are entertainment I feel very passionately about my entertainment but in a way that makes me sort of displaced in both sides of the neuro fence
Being visibly a minority also brings about the fun game of “why are these strangers staring at me” and “will a photo/video end up somewhere” without any upsides 😓
Yes, exactly. I'm a fat person and recently fell in public while someone near me had their phone up in my direction. They were filming something else, but I was definitely in the background of it. There's a real worry that that video will end up on the internet to make fun of me if that person is at least a little bit of a bully. Because people don't care. People love to see people get hurt online, especially if it's a person society deems acceptable to dehumanize.
@@IAmNotAWoodenDuck I'm a fat person living in Southern California and I have been filmed and photographed on many occasions without my consent, for doing things as benign as daring to exist in public. I'm sure my image has made it to a few unsavory places on the internet, though I definitely don't want to seek it out and see for myself. I'm sending love and solidarity. I don't think it's okay for this to happen to anyone.
I really don’t think it’s fair to harass famous people and their families. People pay for tickets to concerts or books that you buy. Like you are paying for their service during a certain time. If a famous person wants to pose for a picture they can but saying no to this shouldn’t be demonized. No one asks me to do my job when I’m not clocked in.
A 👏 MEN 👏 If you want to say hi to a celebrity, get their photo, etc, wait for them to host a meet-and-greet. That's the entire purpose of that kind of event. The purpose of a grocery store is to buy groceries, not take pictures of strangers.
It's a weird thing where artists become the product being sold rather than the art they produce. People think they own the artist, when actually they own an album or a concert or a copy of a movie/tv show.
The first sentence is a bit funny as it seems so obvious. One would hope that you don’t think that… And yet it appears to be a hot take to many people which is wild.
I work in a pharmacy on a small city in Germany, so a lot of customer service. Older regulars expect to be recognized and greeted by name on the street or in a store, sometimes want a small exchange as if we're friends. So yeah. Off the clock work that I'm never in the mood for but have to do.
I'm reminded of a celebrity who said that he specifically had a problem with fans who hovered. If they hovered, it was like they were following him and it was scary. He asked that people either approach or leave him alone, so he wouldn't be scared by them. He understood they were probably anxious, but that anxiety led to a behaviour that scared *him*, and he figured they probably didn't even realize. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the celebrity, but this was a request that stuck with me. I had a lot of empathy for him in that moment. It just goes to show, sometimes we don't even realize the effect we have on others.
Oh man, whenever I recognize someone in public, I specifically have anxiety about whether my noticing was noticeable, especially if I end up in close proximity, because then I’m worried that my attempts to avoid betraying my recognition will be too pointed and that that itself might make them uncomfortable.
This was an exceptional video and is one of the clearest descriptions of modern "celebrity" that I've seen. I am a J-list niche Internet micro celebrity and I've already experienced the majority of the things that you've talked about in this video. Thankfully my in-person experiences with fans have been overwhelmingly positive, but it's still really creepy when people I don't know and have never met ask me a bunch of personal questions like we're friends, and get upset if I don't engage them in conversation. The real issues are from interactions online though, as I'm "famous" enough to attract antifans and clout-chasers. It is absolutely true that some people want to see others fail, but there are also a non-trivial number of people who actively spread lies about well-known people in order to get attention (or likes or views) for themselves. There have been a shocking number of times that things I say on social media have been screenshotted and shared out of context with the explicit purpose of spreading lies. And the few times I have confronted the people who initially shared these things (the people who knew they were being taken out of context for clout) they would reply with something like, "whatever man, you're a public figure". As if that justifies it? I never had any desire to be "famous", I just wanted to share my experiences online in the hopes that they would be helpful to younger people, but some people believe that the act of starting a UA-cam channel is the same as consenting to celebrity. In particular the part you mention at 35:25 is so true. People so often say, "just ignore it!" Yeah, that's easy to say when you encounter one asshole, troll, or pathological liar on your social media once a month or so. Try dozens of times per day and see how easy it is to "just ignore it." 🙄 OK, rant over. On the whole, I'm very happy with being a "UA-camr". The vast majority of people are really good and I've managed to avoid the majority of the negative effects by not appearing on camera anymore, not reading comments, and avoiding social media. But it's still annoying to have to do these things at all.
Considering the side of UA-cam I'm on, you're a c-lister to me 😂 sorry to hear that you have to deal with that stuff, but thanks so much for the work you put into your channel!
im sick in bed today and decided it was finally time to learn about whats going on with chappell roan (before today I only knew her name). imagine my surprise when I learned it really just boils down to people hate when young neurodivergent women don't act the way they want or except them to. spoiler, I wasn't surprised at all! this was a really refreshing take after all the swill I was wading through
Jesse Gender once liked one of my comments and it made my tummy flutter and now I see how people can fall for it. Learning about para social relationships made me shift my language from "I love Lindsay Ellis" to "I love Lindsay's work" I refuse to make the distinction with Dolly Parton. I love that woman, full stop ❤
The point about para relationships I got from this video was not that they are bad inherently, but that they become a problem when you can’t/don’t acknowledge the limits of the relationship. Although she does curate her self-presentation in her content, Lindsay Ellis absolutely does put some of her “real self” into it. I think it’s fair for you to love the bit of her you do know, while bearing in mind that isn’t her whole self and she doesn’t know you.
That’s a good language shift, I like that! But yeah, to me the scariest thing about those parasocial feelings is that knowing about the concept doesn’t stop my brain from having that feeling of connection.
I think a big part of Chappell's complaints is how these fans are trying to interact with her. Fans coming up and demanding hugs and photos are treating her like an object, not a person. I think she'd probably feel a lot differently if people could just be chill about it and maybe just say, "Hey, I really love your work and I wanted to say thank you for what you do." Obsessing over a singers life and trying to find out as many personal details about them as possible is scary and has already had very real consequence. She's absolutely correct to be fearful and to tell people to act right.
It's very important for people too remember that celebrities are people but I also think a big part of the discourse behind Chappell Roan atm is also tied too misogyny and anti LGBT rhetoric
I wasn't big on Chapell Roan before but thanks to this video I want to go all in on supporting her because if it sends the message that celebrities can set up boundaries and the paparazzi can get told off without punishment I am one hundred billion percent behind it.
I’ve seen a lot of comments on Reddit and stuff like “Wow I love her but it’s so tiresome hearing her complain so much about her fame.” It’s maddening because these commenters VOLUNTARILY click through a bunch of posts, articles, threads, videos about Roan and her complaints, then get mad they have to see/hear the complaints. Dude, freaking go somewhere else, the internet is not that small. Maybe “journalists” would stop milking Roan’s tears so much if these goobers stopped clicking on things they supposedly are sick of seeing.
Tbf the Internet is just algorithms now. 2 months ago I didn't know of Roan's existence but suddenly she was all over UA-cam. Compared to 10, 15 years ago when things weren't so centralised, the Internet does feel a lot smaller to me, and it's not as easy to simply avoid topics that are making headlines everywhere.
Do you know, since you realize that people voluntarily choose to read those comments, then you must also recognize that chapel voluntarily chooses to be famous. No one has a gun to her head. She is the only one making the autonomous decision to be famous. She could stop doing music whenever she wanted to, but the fame feels good. Let’s read the room guys.
@@MaffyTaffyHaffy Chappell makes music because that's what she likes to do, if she didn't she would've stopped years ago. It just so happens that what she likes to do makes you famous. She's allowed to complain, she's allowed to vent. She uses her fame for good things, she deserves it. It's incredibly dumb to expect fame to be all positives, when male actors have been complaining about fame for a bit and nobody calls them ungrateful. Especially when having bipolar disorder, it can be incredibly difficult, but she keeps going and making people happy. I went to her Berlin concert like 2 weeks ago and she's fantastic.
Very much makes me think of how Steve-O had foumd out about the death of his friend, Ryan Dunn, because TMZ called him to ask him about it. Many of Ryan Dunn's family and friends hadn't even been notified yet before TMZ publushed the "story".
Ironicaly, so many people complain about how far remover celebrities are from "the real life". About how they always stay in their own circle, don't know how much stuff costs at the supermarket and so on. And then won't let them go in public without being mobed by people and tell them to just hire someone if it bothers them.
This is the best video I’ve seen about the Chappell discourse. I feel like all the video essayists have had their two cents about this topic but Rowan’s perspective makes the most sense to me.
It's the empathy, authenticity, and understanding for me. Rowan's takes are always so balanced and focus on justice, and she always breaks things down in simple ways and references other works/events to make you see a situation in another way. 💖 This video humanizes Chappell Roan in a way I haven't seen from other creators.
My personal take is: leave people you don't know alone, lol. The times I would take a picture or ask for an autograph from a celeb would be at a professional event (book signing, meet and greet, after a show/gig, etc). They really are just a fellow human at the end of the day. I don't know why you would want to a) set yourself up for disappointment and/or b) stroke a stranger's ego.
I can't meet famous people anymore. I told my favorite artist at a con that I'd followed him since DeviantArt and saw the light leave his eyes. I can't survive that experience again.
i feel like we're seeing history repeating itself time and time again when it comes to the treatment of female celebrities. stalking and harassment have severely endangered and literally killed people in roan's position before but no, its spoiled of her to ask for basic respect. this isnt even an unusual thing for celebrities to request, ive seen plenty of actors voice that they'd prefer if you not come up to them in public but because chappell roan was the newest hot thing it was of course bound to happen for people to jump on every thing she did in the future with extreme critique. we need to remind ourselves that entertainers are people doing a job. i feel like entitlement to the behavior of celebrities and customer service workers both have a lot in common and come from a similar place. in both situations, you should understand that these people are doing a job and afford them basic decency
The thing I don’t see a lot of people saying about this stuff is that Roan (and others before her) aren’t asking for fame. They just made some good music and are elevated because of their talent, not from a desire for fame. Chappell Roan/Billie Eilish/Charlii XCX just wrote some catchy bangers and now have to deal with abuse in this way. People using the "it’s part of fame/you asked for this" argument, are full of shit
I think the k-pop industry really highlights the problem with these parasocial relationships. You talked about the double- standard of objectifying women, but also criticising stars who express their sexuality. If you don't know the song "nxde" by (g)i-dle, you should check it out. It is a fantastic critique of both this issue, but also of being criticised for removing the public image and showing who you are underneath. I have so much respect for this group 😊
What I liked about the conversation here was the emphasis that everyday people experience a similar situation as far as being under a microscope thru everyday surveillance. I mean, everyone has had to adjust with the idea that, as the video points out, we could have our photo taken, or video taken without our consent.
Any time I see people engaging with the argument that empathy is dying, I think "that requires you to severely overestimate the level of empathy people were shown in the past." Maybe it's just being old enough to absolutely know that, but it really is a wild claim to me. People are absolutely more empathetic overall now. It's not perfect, it'll never be perfect, but it's growing. Celebs in the 80s and 90s could never dream of saying what Chappell said and get the support she has. But we also need to help people adjust to the idea that being a singer, a performer, and a songwriter does not mean you are entitled to her.
I also wish we talked about less sympathetic celebs in this same way. Look at how Blake Lively was discussed for rejecting that people on the street should talk to her about their DV experiences because of a movie she was in.
@@ruthie8872 Agree! I think the difference here is that Blake is perceived to be more media-trained than Chappell (and she probably is), and expected to have provided a more measured response in that particular interview.
@geektrash180 I'm sure she is more trained but I also don't think there's anything wrong with what she said. The question was wrong and outdated on so many levels there was just no winning.
@@ruthie8872 This! There truly is no winning for female public figures. I agree that Blake's response really wasn't that odd. In a vacuum it probably wouldn't have had the backlash, but she is being compared to her male colleague. It's the "look at the man being all calm and nice but the woman doesn't know what she's talking about".
@@ruthie8872 and we really need to stop labelling female celebrities as "mean girl" "rude" "entitled" when they are just saying what any of us would say. The "mean girl" isn't real. Rather than focusing on what the real issue is (parasociality and media ruining lives of many women in the industry), everyone seems to be focused on scrutinizing individuals.
Grateful for this convo. I’ve had an interesting lens on this surveillance as someone who has both worked on labor rights and also government oversight. I think this question of “what amount of power warrants the compromise of someone’s rights” is a really interesting and tricky tension. All the more so, now that surveillance has become so much easier!
Just read Bikini Kill singer Kathleen Hannah's memoir and she talks about this, after shows she'd talk to fans who often had stories of personal trauma she'd listen to (Hannah also worked as an SA crisis counsellor) and at some point it got exhausting and then weird, where people wanted photos of themselves sitting in her lap, etc. Bikini Kill and the larger Riot Grrrl movement had attention from mainstream media and the music press and she became a figurehead. I don't doubt that in cases where you go from relative obscurity to becoming a household name overnight this can get real weird, real fast, and Chappell Roan isn't wrong to want personal space around her when she's not performing and just existing in public, especially when it public attention goes from 0 to 100. I didn't go, but an entire Seattle neighborhood filled up just to see her, and that's crazy if you really think about it.
this is all so maddening, she's asking for basic respect and people are harassing, bullying, and stalking her. of course she wants basic respect but the internet couldn't give a shit left. as someone with depression I cannot imagine being at my worst and just wanting to be outside and I can't do that or I'd be mobbed. I can't imagine how insane going from doing small shows to huge Venues in just months.
I think your point of "parasocial relations being just another word for abuse" realy hit the nail in the head. Personally, I've always been a little of the mindset "they're famous, why should I care", but your point made me rethink that. Great video!
I think jealousy plays at least a small roll in all this. Life is unfair, and it's easy to even subconsciously make that an excuse for lashing out at people who got their lucky break.
And people think that the lucky break came easy, when most of the time it absolutely didn't. Lucky breaks mean nothing if you haven't put in the years of blood sweat tears and business to be ready when it happens, otherwise the opportunity passes right by.
I don't listen to Chappell roans music at all i loved her outfit on the vmas and now after this asking for basic respect i definitely respect her a lot more and i hope this helps a lot more celebrities follow her lead there's been too many times that they don't ask for boundaries or set boundaries and it goes to shot they burn themselves out and nobody wins
when i say that celebrities are characters i mean that they are perfoming a character anytime you see them on videos or read their interviews. we cannot know them. they are not friends. we have access to their public persona but that doesn't give us the right to even think about their private lives. it was made all the more clear to me when i read Elliot Page's autobiography. when i was a teenager i thought it was harmless to especulate about his sexuality. but then i grew up and realized that it wasn't. and then i read the book and realized it was just plain wrong. just leave them alone. go to the concerts, watch the game, read their books. what they do for the public is *for* the public. everything else-- they shoudn't have to give up.
It's also not universally true anymore that celebrities are in possession of immense wealth. Like the way that actors are paid has drastically changed to where one can be both recognizably famous and unable to pay the rent. Not that it would be fine to stalk and harass them regardless, but the argument about what they get in return isn't even valid for a lot of them.
this is especially true for musicians! album sales used to be the main income stream for any music artist, but now that streaming exists they make their money touring instead, and while tickets can be expensive the tour itself is considered a success if they break even at the end of it and can pay themselves. streams pay pennies, album sales are way down and after paying all your ppl you're lucky if you can make enough money to support yourself! its way harder for musicians to get really rich like they used to. the richest musicians have their own labels or other music industry companies, are producers, have brand sponsorships or make money off their social media. not saying chappell is as poor as the average musician, bc she is very popular and her bills are most likely paid, but she's probably not as rich as ppl think she is
I was so confused that this was a drama but that’s because despite being a pretty intense autistic fan I mentally combust at the thought of speaking to famous people in public. I do feel like it’s probably weird to have fans. When I wanted to meet Star Trek people I went to a convention meet and greet because that felt less weird, they were paid to be there meeting fans so I felt less like I was bugging them. I just like making artists, actors and writers feel appreciated for creating meaningful stuff I would die if one of them asked me to come over or something that’s way outside of my expected interaction bubble. People who do want sudden unearned intimacy like that that baffle me.
emily dickinson was never on social media but even she knew that fame is incredibly fickle "Fame is the one that does not stay- It's occupant must die" personally i'm terrified of becoming famous, and i would probably mess up way more than chappell has. i really don't see why anyone feels such a need to criticize these poor young people as much as they do. Although, when when a celebrity does something actually reprehensible it feels like radio silence
Thanks for adding to this conversation! Not to run to hindsight, but I do hope that this discourse that Roan has unearthed leads to a more proactive deconstruction of several facets of the celebrity industry. Abuse has been normalised to the point of being a problem that has no name for the famous, and moving the veil of fame’s benefits has been a pretty gnarly process in public talks. For me, at least, it’s served as a pretty horrid reminder of the ways in which people can rationalise seemingly objectively malicious behaviour. The internet needs places where concentrated debate takes place- hopefully content like this can be another contributor to the attrition on what is ultimately a current zeitgeist that proliferates idolisation, and with that, the removal of a holistic outlook we should always make an effort to use. Also more Shakespeare. Any opportunity to slag off Iago.
the best thing you can do when you pass a celebrity in public, is just smile and nod, maybe a quick polite "goodmorning" but in passing, dont make a big deal out of it. they will think you are way cooler than you think you are.
I think the main problem here is the way we treat celebrities. We treat them as objects, not human beings. I’m glad that Chappell is criticizing celebrity culture. Because yes it is weird to demand a photo from a celebrity. You aren’t entitled to their time just because they’re famous
I could imagine seeing her off the clock in public, and saying, "hey, I love your music," and not expecting anything in return. But then I imagine getting that interaction every 20 minutes in public and I know I would want to hide.
To an extent I understand it when children don’t quite respect the boundaries of famous people they know because they don’t yet understand what boundaries are and I think that’s where celebrity culture started. As with most things what made this much worse is commodification and with it normalization of disrespectful behavior. It’s likely still the case that stars like Roan who have young fans have to deal with the most abrasive interactions. What I would wish for is a culture where „the adults in the room“ would be able to teach their children about where the contract between an artist and the audience begins and ends - but it’s not unlikely that the adult grew up on gossip magazines and stars being called b… for not being the most accommodating and always friendly person imaginable.
Dont forget that this is Roan's job. If we all have the right to be free from stalking, discrimination, sexual advancements, and inappropriate behaviour at our workplaces, why should Roan have to put up with it because she is a singer? The problem is that some people are so unhinged that they will act like this regardless of how socially unnaceptable it is. Try convincing the paparazzi that they should behave better, it's literally impossible, and that's why we can't have nice things
As an autistic person, I do think the way people treat celebrities is very odd. Like people lose their mind when they see a random singer. But they're a regular person! Everyone is a person! Like what is wrong with people? Imagine being treated the way you treat celebrities. Do you think they don't like a regular human to human connection? Sorry, don't know who I'm arguing with. Recently went to a Melanie Martinez concert and people lost their frickin minds about 300 times in 2 hours. But also the average age there was 10 so fair enough, I guess
I hear you. I have ADHD and never understood celebrity culture and worship. Sure, I have favourite artists that I love, but I don't scream my lungs out if I see them in public. I think that there has been a surge in stan culture and fans forming parasocial relationships with celebrities. It is fine to have favourite celebrities, however, some fans need to understand that celebrities OWE YOU NOTHING. Celebrities can have boundaries and can choose not to consent to hugs, autographs, photographs, etc.
The photos and autographs are also part of her job but that’s during public events. Artists have meet and greets and photo sessions for a reason. Those are the correct venues to engage that way with an artist you like. Doing it on the street when they’re off the clock is weird.
I spent a few days in a theme park with a recognizable actor and I started feeling this creeping anxiety if we stood still for too long, because the longer we stood still, the more people surrounded us asking for the actor's picture and a hug. I wasn't the one being approached and I still found it uncomfortable. Said actor was gracious and stopped whenever asked, but there was also a private security guard who kept the crowd from getting too large and took on the "bad guy" role. There was a psychology study where they compared brain activity when catching up with old friends vs rewatching a favorite tv show/movie, and found the brain reacted the same to bonding with old friends as it did watching familiar actors & media. Parasocial relationships really do make the brain think this person they know from their phone screen is their friend, and it's not their fault, our brains are wired this way.
Yes, YES! This is the defense of Chappel Roan I needed to see. I’ve never understood celebrity obsession and always thought that even if I had some talent that might have made me a celebrity, it’s a process I’d never be willing to pay. Excellent analysis of what’s wrong with celebrity culture!
There are so many actors/musicians/artists who are super generous with their feelings/inner selves/souls/experiences through their work itself. Catharsis through art and story is where these people offer their hearts.To be an artist putting your work out there *is* the offering. So many people make art because it is the way they've chosen to connect, because it is how they know how to best communicate and give to the world. And it's a job that feels so emotionally vulnerable itself. I think it's pretty gross that people are more into projecting onto the artist herself instead of appreciating the things she's created. People who create choose to connect through creation and the relationship between musician and listener is such a special one---the idea that people want to consume more and more of the essence and closeness to the artist---it feels greedy. Especially because there is so much art to discover, to listen to---so many artists are generous with their output itself. I think we can do so much better than we're doing. Being part of the group and community of an audience is a really special thing itself. Sure we're gathered around an artist onstage but we're all having an experience together when we see something live. There is a difference between "I love your work" and "I love you". The first one is respectful and celebratory coming from a stranger. The second one is creepy coming from a stranger. I think people need to get better at saying "I love your work, I respect your work" and understand that what the artist is choosing to share----is work. It's emotional, vulnerable work, sure. And it might speak to your soul in the way a lover would. But you do not know the bard just because the bard is channeling the voice of the fire god. I've gone too far. What am I talking about?
i think celebrity having boundaries is a necessary thing and in chappel roan case it would have been more productive to have an actual PR person script or outline something instead of going on a upset frantic (albeit deserved) rant on tiktok which conflated fans and stalkers in the same breath, i get being upset and scared, i just think there would have been another way to get the same message of ‘don’t be fucking weird’ in a way that doesn’t make her look like an ungrateful person or someone dunking on her fans and i think it’s more on her management team to deal with that better
Fandom, in many ways, is gossip culture at its most extreme. Yet, with the commodification of fandom spaces... it is easier for individual fans to become mobs of moral judgement, of condemnation. It is one thing, to gossip openly and publically about a completely fictional character. It is another, to gossip about that character's creator or actor. The dehumanizating aspect of celebrity blurs the understanding of reality and fiction: because something is "real" to a fan, their experience of feeling, of reality, becomes projected unto others. The reverse is true too: someone else's reality is "less real" and thus "harmless" to judge or ridicule. Consider, then, that "celebrity culture" is ALSO this: "Karens" calling police on visibly disabled or BIPOC persons behaving "indecently" in public. Children and Little People being grabbed, picked up, and even thrown in public because they're "cute". Being followed and catcalled just because someone else found YOU "attractive". "Celebrity" culture isn't limited to celebrity: any disabled, neurodivergent or BIPOC person knows this viscerally.
wealth disparity is an awful problem, but it doesn't justify treating any specific rich/famous people terribly. the problem is the system, so i guess my stance is "don't harass the player, harass the game"
I've never understood celebrity culture. Even when my hyperfixation was a band and specifically one of their guitarists, my interest was kinda removed and academic, for lack of a better word. The same way I was obsessed with dinosaurs or pirates before. Never felt like I 'knew' these people or was entitled to them or that they owed me anything. That seems so delusional to me and I get genuine second hand embarrassment from people acting like that.
I think you hit the issue when you questioned if the downside of fame is what the famous owe. I think there are a lot of people who need those who have an elevated position in society, be it a financial or social one to "pay" for it, otherwise they would be seeing people with a "perfect" life when they dont have the same. If there is a torturous side of fame then the observer can think "I may not have their money and power, but at least I don't need to put up with that every day."
This is exactly why I never jump on Pop Princess Band Wagons because the majority of these ravenous fans are only along for the ride until the latest engenue presents herself as more than just a kind face and pretty voice. As soon as she expresses any kind of nuance or complex character, she's dropped from magazines & tours & press junkets. I don't know if it's the fans or the corporations who do the ditching first but either way is abhorrent. Their male contemporaries are almost always given grace & leniency when they have "quirks of character." Why can't these girls & young women be shown the same kind of decency?
I don't think we can escape this issue without a strong critique of how Capitalism commodifies our bodies as products to be bought and consumed, as well as the slow dying death of religion which is leaving a distinctly spiritual hole in a collective psyche, a desire to hold onto something larger than ourselves. Celebrities are in my analysis, the new commercially available Gods that we are encouraged to both relate to and consume, with impossible and vaguely defined expectations of them that nothing but a God can live up to. Also, I disagree with the analysis that those who don't want to engage with the discussion are necessarily disengaging with a celebrity's humanity, rather I think that many disengage from a conversation that is in the end another form of celebrity consumption, the Discourse. I personally know a few famous people but I deliberately keep a very neutral and formalised detatchment unless I am invited into their world beyond just their work because its just impossible to know someone from just their work. Rightly or wrongly, unless the discussion is broad enough to cover not just celebrities but also viral people, UA-camrs and other people who suffer under the Capitalist Spectacle, then it still plays into the worship of celebrity and the removal of them from the human experience. Contrapoints video about Cancelling and Lily Alexandre's latest video about The Horror of immortality really does cover how capitalism turns our bodies, including celebrities, into products.
I'm honestly so glad to see someone bring up the situation with Roan as part of a whole - something about the situation that's been bothering me is that even most of the people in support of her have been considering the situation in a vacuum, rather than a product of a whole where celebrities and really any online or public personality is expected to offer themselves up to the masses at the expense of their own mental well-being and physical safety, especially as it gets easier and easier to access them through the internet, finding out info about them and their families that never should have been public.
Justifying stalking an artist because "they can hire bodyguards" is similar to someone in a well-paying job where they're constantly abused because "they can hire a counsellor". Yes, they can, but that doesn't mean they deserve the trauma and abuse, and that doesn't mean that it isn't having effects beyond what you can pay for. And the same applies to artists, just because sometimes they have the ability to hire/pay for services doesn't mean they should need them in the first place. Everyone is capable of respecting someone else's wishes, and it's upsetting that they often choose not to, or that they're offended when someone establishes an (extremely reasonable) boundary
Something that like always reminds me of Michael Hobbs on You're Wrong About This podcast stating: Fame is abusive. While initially hearing that statement, it can seem hyperbolic. The way that parasocial relationships work is that people feel that celebrities are genuinely people that have special intimate bonds with when, in reality, they don't know who they are; but I believe the statement has validity. No one who is famous to any degree deserves to be berated, stalked, or harassed. And that's why people are famous constantly saying: 'There's still a possibility that I will give it all up and live somewhere in the middle of the woods with two dogs and a cat." Money is nice and money can buy lots of things, especially in a society like America. But I'm too soft and sensitive to open myself up to so many people, along with the constant surveillance and entitlement
My favorite general subject in school is Social Sciences and Humanities. I've taken psychology and sociology classes and seminars on international politics and gender studies. Yet there are two recurring ideas that come up in all of these. First, that we humans come from many unique and diverse upbringings, cultures and ways of thinking. Second, that we each have our own approach and perception to life based on how we grow and develop in our early ages. Yet, in our current modern society, these simple facts of life mean nothing in the face of celebrity Stan culture and para- social relationships. Kayleigh's (Chappell Roan) situation is no different. Her approach to negativity is messy to say the least, but the public's lack empathy and understanding towards her isn't helping, it's only making it worse.
This is a very good video and I think you made all the right points. We can't treat celebrities as though they're not human and therefore undeserving of empathy. Going about life this way can lead us down a very dangerous road. It makes me think about how this kind of culture led to Christina Grimmie's death (which I was absolutely devastated by), and in a different kind of way all of the celebrities over time who have died or very nearly died of overdose.
Excellent video! On the topic of "Well they agreed to it" or "That's the price of fame, they gain so much more" (29:21) I wondered why was it so hard to understand the right to privacy. And maybe it's because, people who become wealthy and acquire social capital through fame and people who also are or become wealthy through other means share one key difference: it's more than privacy, it's that famous people have their right to self determination essentially blasted away. Their entire experience of living has to become mediated, calculated and managed by others. The absolutely wealthiest and most well connected and powerful people on the planet operate essentially incognito, on a need to know basis. And I think few needs are as powerful for human beings as the right to be who we want to be, and change when we want to change. And to essentially give that up or have it taken away must be harrowing. And I think no amount of social or monetary capital can fill that void.
Alright, “money can’t buy happiness” is true, but it’s NOT supposed to mean “you should be happy you have no money”. It’s supposed to mean “dear Mr Ebenezer Scrooge, focusing your life on hoarding ever-more absurd amounts of wealth will not fill the hole in your soul.”
This one’s been hard as a trans person in the USA in 2024. As I’m watching my life become a political statement.. any time I do anything wrong or right it’s not enough. I won’t get into it but I’m not alone. However, having been isolated for 2.5 years and then blamed for it.. I don’t think I would ever wish that on my worst enemy. If you haven’t been stalked or surveilled, publicly ridiculed or hated just for being you… you should talk to someone who has.
I remember when I was on vacation in June, visiting my hometown and I decided to wear a more elaborate outfit for fun. I was having a fun day until I exited a store and started walking down a less crowded street and noticed that an elderly couple were standing there, taking pictures of me as I walked past them. Not even trying to hide it, just standing there, phones out, following my steps. I was too scared to confront them (I have alot of very bad experiences calling folks out on cons who did this) but I started frowning and hid my face and started speedwalking but judging from the quick view I got of them, that hadnt stopped them, in fact they started laughing. I remember feeling so exposed and anxious bc. who were they? Where are those pictures going to end up? Why did they take these pictures? It was so violating. I cannot even fathom having something like this and worse happen on a daily basis . To feel like you never have any privacy because people feel entitled to you and your image and when you lash out they get mad and call you ungrateful.
I think the most recent endorsement controversy was dumb. Saying that there are issues on both sides isn't an uncommon sentiment amongst progressives, nor is it the same as saying they're equally bad. We cannot reasonably expect someone who does hundreds of hours of interviews to never say something that sounds imperfect out of context. It annoys me that a quote, which is directly followed by encouraging people to use critical thinking, was argued is evidence she supports trump, especially since she's been so vocal about supporting trans and queer people in general.
Modern social media and tabloid drama HATES nuance and context. It loves extreme headlines, and interpreting things in the worst possible bad-faith light. Clickbait creates more views and interactions than any reasonable conversation ever could... *especially* when it's wrong. Interactions = money for the platform and attention for whomever threw the first punch. Good people trying to add context or correct misinformation? Interactions. Jerks just here to call names or claim "I knew there had to be something wrong with her!"? Interactions. Those two sides going back and forth in the comments or replies? Interactions. And a one-sentence lie usually needs a paragraph or more to correct, so we run into the "TL, DR" crowd who can't be bothered to listen to anything but the lies because they don't have time. The Algorithm wins, and we all lose.
I think we see people replicate these behaviors theyve honed on massive celebrities in more niche spaces too. The entitlement, the desire for information or a certain series of behaviors from the apparent celeb, the demand for a certain experience in interacting with them or a certain life that they must be leading- i see it from that dude who played a character on heartstopper, to random youtubers who have under a million subscribers- i have seen people who making fucking skyrim mods be followed around, parasocialized, harassed and examined. Its like. Dude. We all are gonna be a lil parasocial but if you are putting this level of expectation on relationships that can never return it to you you will never be happy
i've honestly never understood or cared for celebrity culture. vaguely knowing the names of members of my favourite bands is about as far as i go, i cannot imagine approaching them on the street or learning about their private life. i care about their art, their music, their acting, and as individuals they are nothing more than strangers to me. it's similar with video essayists, although it's easy to feel a lot more parasocial when the artistic format involves the artist looking directly at you and teaching you in a personal-feeling way. but still, i don't know them! they're not my teachers or friends, just artists and scholars, and i only care to know the things they care to tell their audiences.
I've worked in a normal retail environment where, due to the location, you'd occasionally encounter people who were recogniseable, mainly actors. Our requirement is and was, of course, to just do our jobs. We'd get excited and there would be a little buzz going around the store, but the interactions were always professional. I think this interaction shows that it's possible to both feel excited by the visit from someone you know the face of while also treating them with the respect and distance they deserve and makes their lives slightly easier. The other thing I noticed about these people was that it was like talking to a fellow employee. They interacted like they were "at work", even though they were shopping, with the same kind of smooth, open-seeming, professional friendliness a (experienced) retail employee affects. In fact, this made them noticeable even if I _didn't_ recognise them. I knew they were famous because they had learned to operate as if they were "at work" at all times. Some of them were even jumpy, like a teacher trying to go shopping in the neighbourhood where they work. That to me gave me a really clear insight into what it must be like to be one of these people going about their daily business, and how exhausting it must be to be constantly prepared to have someone be like, "oh, you're that person!" even if it happens silently in someone's expression. Everything is a possible report going to a friend or worse, social media. Given it's impossible sometimes to not wear the :O face, what happens next is important. I think we can both enjoy celebrity and treat celebrities with respect. It's okay to get excited when you see a recogniseable person going about their daily beeswax, and it's okay to tell--but not gossip with--your friends in private settings. Depending on the situation, it might be okay to quickly tell them they are great, but I think only extremely rarely. It's not okay to take a photo, yell across the street, try to engage them in conversation or otherwise demand their attention. Basically, behave as if it's YOUR job to give them the space and lack of attention you give everyone. It's a kind of lifestyle democracy.
This is almost a versjon of what some well off people say to justify not having empathy or trying to help people in poverty. The “they choose not to work hard and be lazy” kind of attitude. That is of course far worse because it affects far more people with way less power. There is however something similar in the mentality of removing empathy because of a perceived choice. We don’t want to have to empathize because that would be uncomfortable so we try and justify why we should not have to.
I think it’s a bit wild that we expect celebrities to be okay with general horrible /uncomfortable/ unsafe acts done to them by saying “it comes with the job”… all of us are bound to experience a death of a loved one weather it be a parent, friend, or sibling, but that doesn’t mean all of us just need to get over it when it happens. I think you’re right that it shows a lack of empathy to our fellow man, even if they are financially stable. Even if these celebrities are “jerks”, they don’t deserve continual harassment and crossing of very normal boundaries for the average person.
You can always tell exactly what kind of a person someone is by how they respond to boundaries. My peer counsellor has a list of favourite sayings and one of them is "other people don't have to *like* your boundaries, but they do have to respect them". I remember voice actress Ashleigh Ball talking about the sudden fame she got from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. She was willing to interact with fans as long as they exercised judgement on when was best to approach her - fan events? Of course, that's what she's there for. If she's at the supermarket trying to run errands? Best to leave her alone if she looks busy A good person will respond to a boundary with understanding and attempts to follow it, maybe even apologising for overstepping or misreading a situation. It's like say, you set a boundary with a friend that you don't want people calling you after 11pm. A good friend will respect that and simply not call (and if it's urgent, preface by saying so). And if they call anyway, you'd be well within your rights to not answer and be like "what did I say?" A toxic or bad person would then use you not answering as an example of you being a bad friend Celebrities have always been something of a 'commodity' for the public to enjoy. Back in the days of the first movie stars, they were all under contract to major studios, and their public image was carefully crafted, and they'd be forced to play along for the most part, with the stars not really fighting back until the 40s. And a lot of these early movie stars came from extremely poor or disadvantaged backgrounds, so fame was the lesser of two evils. So this idea of fame turning you into a commodity came from a system where the participants weren't entirely consenting, and it benefitted the people making money off their public image more than them And now with the internet and social media, the boundaries have been completely eroded. You're not just sitting down to watch the TV at X time or seeking out Y magazine. It's everywhere, and now everyday people have become commodities too, likewise without the previous transaction of paying for the commodity or seeking it out. And the algorithms and platforms favour more content, and the public shaming that is often done results in corporate profit at the end of the day. I can only hope that this at least results in more normies understanding what celebrities have to go through, and thus encourages us to all be a little kinder to each other
Roan's ticktok came out about 3 weeks after a cosplayer was attacked by the man who stalked her for 10 years at tokyo's comiket. That people rallied around her partially because the man was not traditionally attractive and because he actually harmed her, but won't when Roan is trying to mitigate the same behavior is just so odd. Also helps that said cosplayer is a relatively famous vtuber who has a rabid and very protective fanbase on top of her cosplayer fans as well. Also that she is worried about hiring security for her cosplaying events in Japan bbecause she thinks it makes her seem pretenious and unwelcoming is so sad. She could have been seriously harmed by this man and she is so keenly aware of how even having security could tip the balance of good will against her. Also as a microcosm of people doing stuff they were asked not to do: this cosplayer opened her dms on twitter to try to get help gathering evidence against her attacker and asked people to not spam her dms with well wishes, and people still spammed her dms.
People seriously need to leave her the hell alone. Jesus Christ. Nobody is entitled to anyone's time or attention. I don't want to see people saying in 10-20 years that "Oh we should have treated her better" or "we owe her an apology" after shes had a public breakdown or something like that. People should be knowing better NOW and doing better NOW
This. I'm so done with people apologizing and saying they should've done better after something tragic happens to someone, we know better now, we should do better now, there's no excuse to treat people this way.
Okay so my hot take is that the parasocial connection isn't the bad thing, but the behavior itself is. Cos when chappell roan is like would you harass a woman on the street you don't know, or stalk them? Even if the parasocial thing has made it seem like you know them, if you did that to someone you knew in real life it'd be even weirder. Like, you wouldn't stalk a friend if you do that's probably why you have no friends sorry. I feel like we've all gone through phases where we're lonely and we use parasocial relationships to get us through that phase and generally I think that's okay and normal. It's when your behavior completely disregards the humanity of a real person that becomes a problem, and that's not the parasocial connection, that's you. I dunno, I kinda don't like the shaming of parasocial connections because if you're isolated in some way and find yourself only having parasocial connections for whatever reason, that's okay. Just be aware that if your parasocial connection concerns a real person, they deserve respect and boundaries and they don't actually know you. Not that Rowan is shaming people for that at all, it's just something that comes up in this discourse that kinda bugs me.
Always love hearing your thoughts on topics like these! I really appreciate the nuance you bring to things, since there so often isn't space for that kind of discussion in various online spaces. If you want another interesting exploration of the dehumanisation effect of fame and the impact of internet culture on public image, especially if you want to hear from another part of the world, I recommend the podcast series "authentic" about the korean hiphop musician Tablo and the "tajinyo" scandal that got entirely out of hand. I think it's a useful additional perspective to this conversation because it involves ideas of celebrity that are separated in many ways from the western conceptualisation of the term.
I thought I was pretty bad about feeling parasocial connections with UA-camrs, but hearing more about "celebrity culture", it's clear I had no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes. Jesus...
I'm not sure there's much the average person can do about this. Back when Amy Winehouse was big I wasn't the one making up stores, taking pictures, buying papers etc etc. It's just the culture of fame, unfortunately. Millions of people get obsessed with a particular person, either through para-relationships or spurred on by gossip articles, and the celeb takes the hit. Nothing I can do is stop the culture, especially ib this age of social media. I'll personally endeavour to either leave celebrities alone or be polite, but I'm just one person.
one time i was sitting down behind a tabel selling art at an event .then surprise a youtuber i recognise walked up and started looking at the art . me being a natural talker said hi i like your videos ! thay look up and i see the shine leave there eyes thay mentally checked out just because i menchind youtube thay just saw me as a annoying fan and just walked away . i dont think this person is bad for not treating me like a human. some people are good in front of a camera but not face to face. now im not going to say i like your videos next time i see an influencer i'm just going say i like your hat. respect works both ways. but i understand that they don't know if im one of the good fans or one of the bad ones. how do i prove i'm one of the good ones.
Nah, that person was just a bit rude. It’s perfectly innocuous to say something like I like your work when they are the ones who approached you. This wasn’t a random interaction, you were engaging as a seller, same way you would complement someone’s cosplay or comment on a book they are holding if you knew it as well. It’s easier to make a sale when you have created some rapport.
I very much agree with your final point about not making kindness conditional, but I think the issue of celebrity becomes complicated when we're dealing with politicians. Politicians are real people who have chosen to become public figures who perform - not for the pleasure of strangers but for their benefit, as each politican supposdely represents their interest group. I still think they deserve empathy and that too-personal attacks are often not productive, but what for celebrities would be stalking and abuse, for politicians would be legitmate protests, e.g. demonstrating outside the personal home of a member in the government. Pretty invasive, yes, but a necessary strategy when the government is harming people.
LOVE your ability to take what seems tirial and expose it for the huge issue it really is. Thank you. --- For those of us with language processing challenges, it would help if you took a tik between paragraphs.. Just a little extra breath. Thank you so very much.
I think even with people we know IRL and love dearly, it can be hard to understand that everything we want to give them is not necessarily what they want or can always accept. When people really appreciate someone's work, I think they often want to give that appreciation form when given the chance in real life. But that doesn't mean the public figure is in a place to accept it every moment of every day. Of course to the person being rebuffed that can feel very painful--they were trying to be nice!--but we have to recognize that there can be selfishness in wanting to express your own feelings about someone. i. e. Empathy.
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I just learned of this super famous young lady today and I’m struck by how she sounds just like me. I love to create thought experiments and social experiments and some time ago I asked myself how would I respond to being super-famous and I came to the answer of how I would be an “Anti-Celebrity” just as she is.
I wouldn’t take pictures with alleged fans unless I was at work because it’s best for my mental health not too and yours too.
Think about it… In what universe would it be good for any of us to anticipate a random person wanting to take a picture with us?
The very thought of becoming that kind of person gives me the ick. So I wasn’t mad at all to hear her say the same. Fans want celebrities to do what they like even if it makes celebrities not like themselves and that’s not cool at all, family.
Fans can depersonalize celebrities and celebrities can depersonalize fans by treating them like they have a hive mind and aren’t individuals.
well said! @@superbrian7997
I’m saying everywhere I can that we shouldn’t have to say “We owe her an apology” 20 years later. Britney didn’t deserve that and neither does Chappell Roan.
Hard agree. We've been told enough times. We know enough now to stop the behaviour immediately
Glad I'm not the only one who thought of Britney with this.
Chappell is trying to prevent what happened to Brittany to happen to her and people are mad at her for it
Exactly. If we keep owing women in the entertainment industry apology after apology, maybe it’s time to make a change. Maybe apologies don’t matter that much when people insist on making the same harmful mistakes over and over again. Maybe it’s time to be better.
yeah but these people have so much money and privilege they aren't real and shouldn't complain and are just awful vapid celebrities and fuck them for like....wanting to make music (BIG SARCASM TAG HERE) yeah you can be private jet privileged but still have like...feelings and stuff
When people say that celebrities etc should just deal with abuse and stalking because "they can hire bodyguards" etc, it sounds like just another way of moving the blame and responsibility away from themselves as a mob.
Imagine how those same people would react when one of them caught twelve grams of fast copper and steel because he wouldn't leave a celebrity's daughter well enough alone.
Okay slightly different direction but I realized people are batsheet crazy when I got accused of being "mean" and "ungrateful" to a problematic company that makes video games. Imagine that weird energy focused on a celebrity
It’s literally “they were asking for it” in different words. “Hire bodyguards” is like “wear a longer skirt”.
To me, it seems like this cycle of “beloved by all” -> “tragic downfall” is especially pronounced with female celebrities, or at least it was during the time when I had any awareness of these things. Like it seems like every actress in my age bracket who won any kind of major award had a period where it was fashionable to hate them. I guess being a public figure and a woman is a double-whammy in terms of others feeling entitled to their person.
People need to remember that her initial video on boundaries was a result of her being grabbed and kissed without consent. A horrific situation nobody should ever have to go through. I also wonder to what extent her inability to adhere to the image of a “perfect victim” by being vocal and angry and refusing to conform to celebrity culture fuels online anger and hate.
Jfc, someone did WHAT???
@@randomhuman_05 yup it’s literally disgusting all while she AND her family were being constantly stalked
@@seraphina306
Unbelievable.
All of this makes me think of that one tweet that's like "everyone is treating real people like fictional characters and fictional characters like real people." Like, a celebrity rightly wants to be left alone when they're not doing their job the way a cashier or an accountant would, and we get *incandescently* angry at them, but someone dares to do something with a video game character that we don't like and we get mad at them for that, too. It's bizarre and terrifying watching the BG3 fandom get so protective of Astarion and get mad at people for fanart and fanfiction that they think is morally wrong while waiting for baited breath for his voice actor to have a "downfall" when Astarion is a figment of someone's imagination made of code and Neil Newbon is a living, breathing person. It's horrifying how differently characters and the people who play them are treated.
People who are famous for art are still just... people doing their jobs. I'm autistic; I do understand being very obsessed with characters, books, music, games, etc. But even I understand a) characters are not real and can't be hurt but 2) the people who made them are real, can't be hurt, and are doing *their jobs*, even if they're lucky enough to be paid for their passion unlike so many others.
Having more empathy for characters and being desperate to protect them from "mistreatment" but being desperate to watch real people get hurt is... scary?
I’m also autistic and Baldur’s Gate 3 is my special interest right now and I need to chime in.
My brain has decided to fixate on Astarion specifically because I relate a lot to his character arc… and I am so tired of the discourse already. And not only does this quickly turn into diluting very serious words and concepts, it always boils down to infantilizing abuse survivors, which is not only insulting but reprehensible. Jokes on them, because the things they find morally repugnant are part of my healing. I’m lucky that in my corner of the Internet, I can avoid The Discourse™️ pretty easily. Outside of that, my time in the fandom has been very pleasant.
I know that fandom culture as a whole is slowly becoming more puritan and it’s genuinely terrifying. Policing people’s art, as well as treating fictional characters like real people and treating real people like fictional characters is rapidly becoming the norm and I’m worried what that means for the future.
Wait who is praying on Neil’s downfall wtf
@@waimarieheap5608 A lot of people are just freaks preying for everyone else’s downfall because they have empty lives themselves
@waimarieheap5608 Right he's one of my favorite voice actors
you lost me at video games but i agree with the sentiment i guess 😂
Chappell performed in a small-ish venue in my city less than a year ago, $50 tickets. Today, she could headline a festival. In just a few months, she went from being relatively famous to completely losing the ability to exist anywhere without being recognised and stopped by fans.
Anyone would struggle with such a sudden rise to fame (let alone the creepy and entitled stan behaviour). "But she's wealthy!" is such a cop-out for the disturbing lack of empathy she's being shown.
Your comment is written as if I’m supposed to feel bad for her that she’s famous. It’s distasteful. There’s so many people in America who are struggling to meet ends meet and she’s literally crying that people recognize her? Does she want to switch lives with a struggling American. I don’t think so.
@@MaffyTaffyHaffyShe’s a “rising” pop star, we don’t even know if she’s rich. Emphasis on the rising part, because she’s been in the spotlight for less than a year. Regardless, what does that have to do with the intense hate campaign against her very normal opinions? Chappell Roan is not directly or indirectly aiding class disparity, you just don’t like her. Which is fine, just don’t claim some moral high ground on it
@@MaffyTaffyHaffyAlso she’s not crying over being recognized, she’s frustrated that her sister’s job was doxxed and her family is unsafe. You don’t even know what you’re upset about
@@MaffyTaffyHaffyyour comment is written like you don't have reading comprehension, considering that's... not at all what the comment was saying
@@MaffyTaffyHaffy I think you read what you wanted to read in your mind and comprehended absolutely nothing. This comment makes NO sense lmao. You just want a reason to hate her and your “reason” does not exist
It's especially gross to see people treat her like that when we literally JUST went through the Britney renaissance within the last few years.
But, then again, society seems to have the memory of goldfish.
The thing is with her setting her boundaries up so early, you would think people would understand that. Considering the ones who claim to be big fans of Britney Spears and such. Also the fact that they don't understand how these singers feel about stalking. Don't they watch interviews, whenever any singer says they feel uncomfortable with that.
The thing about that with people who happen to be chronically online, is they usually think they can be a good propieter of dictating when a person will explain how their mental health.
What I'm trying to say is, people can't exactly always see mental health, or even understand it. Also expecting everyone to accommodate to everyone at all times.
people didn't see britney just as an individual finally regaining her agency after years of abuse and control, they saw it all through the lens of a "comeback story". in their eyes, she's still a performer acting out a narrative for them.
Just going to come to the defence of goldfish, who actually have pretty standard fish memories, and remember social interactions with other goldfish for years. Society's memory only lasts until the next headline.
I think it's funny how my neurodiversity spared me of this. While I got super obsessed with characters growing up (and even now, honestly), my reaction to celebrities was always "that's a stranger, I don't know them". I actually didn't fully grasp parasocial relationships until you linked it to the way a person can get about characters in a book and I had a lightbulb moment. And... that's TERRIFYING. So that's where real person fanfic comes from????
edit: neurodivergency? idk, english isn't my first language
yeah, that's literally where real person fics come from. i never understood it either. then again, i'm also ND, it's still weird as hell though like i'm weird, but not real person smut reading/writing weird 😓
Re: terminology - "neurodivergence" would work here. Neurodiverse/Neurodiversity only really apply to groups, as it connotes how people within a group are neurologically different from one another, while neurodivergence is about how an individual differs from the majority
Maybe it’s a common theme amongst us neurodivergent people? I’ve never had a parasocial relationship either. I can like a persons work, and sometimes think that they can potentially be a good/ok person. At the same time I know that I don’t know them at all, so my presumption can just as well be wrong.
I believe I’ve had a lot of fantasy character obsessions too 😂 But not after I hit 25 unfortunately 🥹 Now life is just a little bit too boring 😂
It's fine, those of us for whom English is our first language don't know which words to use sometimes, either. It doesn't make a lot of sense sometimes.
Honestly I must've got the worst of both worlds because I can't understand parasocial relationships OR the way so many other neurodivergent people feel about fictional characters and universes...
I don't lead a soulless obsession-free life by any means but I don't think of characters as real people any more than I think of celebrities as people that I know?
Maybe I'm just confused but the way so many of us describe feeling like characters in books are their family and friends doesn't resonate with me, I feel like my family and friends are my family and friends (though to be honest mostly my family are my friends), and my books are entertainment
I feel very passionately about my entertainment but in a way that makes me sort of displaced in both sides of the neuro fence
Being visibly a minority also brings about the fun game of “why are these strangers staring at me” and “will a photo/video end up somewhere” without any upsides 😓
Yes, exactly. I'm a fat person and recently fell in public while someone near me had their phone up in my direction. They were filming something else, but I was definitely in the background of it. There's a real worry that that video will end up on the internet to make fun of me if that person is at least a little bit of a bully. Because people don't care. People love to see people get hurt online, especially if it's a person society deems acceptable to dehumanize.
@@IAmNotAWoodenDuck I'm a fat person living in Southern California and I have been filmed and photographed on many occasions without my consent, for doing things as benign as daring to exist in public. I'm sure my image has made it to a few unsavory places on the internet, though I definitely don't want to seek it out and see for myself. I'm sending love and solidarity. I don't think it's okay for this to happen to anyone.
"Why are you booing me I'm right" -Chappel Roan (who is right)
I was going to like your comment but its currently at 69 (nice) so I can't bring myself to break that but I completely agree
@@moviesquad73 Shameful: it's already passed it, might as well delete it now haha.
I really don’t think it’s fair to harass famous people and their families. People pay for tickets to concerts or books that you buy. Like you are paying for their service during a certain time. If a famous person wants to pose for a picture they can but saying no to this shouldn’t be demonized. No one asks me to do my job when I’m not clocked in.
A 👏 MEN 👏
If you want to say hi to a celebrity, get their photo, etc, wait for them to host a meet-and-greet. That's the entire purpose of that kind of event. The purpose of a grocery store is to buy groceries, not take pictures of strangers.
It's a weird thing where artists become the product being sold rather than the art they produce. People think they own the artist, when actually they own an album or a concert or a copy of a movie/tv show.
The first sentence is a bit funny as it seems so obvious. One would hope that you don’t think that… And yet it appears to be a hot take to many people which is wild.
@@NoiseDayI can understand * politely* asking for a picture.
I work in a pharmacy on a small city in Germany, so a lot of customer service. Older regulars expect to be recognized and greeted by name on the street or in a store, sometimes want a small exchange as if we're friends. So yeah. Off the clock work that I'm never in the mood for but have to do.
I'm reminded of a celebrity who said that he specifically had a problem with fans who hovered. If they hovered, it was like they were following him and it was scary. He asked that people either approach or leave him alone, so he wouldn't be scared by them.
He understood they were probably anxious, but that anxiety led to a behaviour that scared *him*, and he figured they probably didn't even realize. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the celebrity, but this was a request that stuck with me. I had a lot of empathy for him in that moment.
It just goes to show, sometimes we don't even realize the effect we have on others.
Oh man, whenever I recognize someone in public, I specifically have anxiety about whether my noticing was noticeable, especially if I end up in close proximity, because then I’m worried that my attempts to avoid betraying my recognition will be too pointed and that that itself might make them uncomfortable.
The Taylor Momsen story actually made me sick. I don't even understand how that's a story. "Shocking news: people have periods"?
Especially with her being 16 like its horrific in general and that just makes it worse
What part was that at?
@twiggledowntown3564 13:03
This was an exceptional video and is one of the clearest descriptions of modern "celebrity" that I've seen.
I am a J-list niche Internet micro celebrity and I've already experienced the majority of the things that you've talked about in this video.
Thankfully my in-person experiences with fans have been overwhelmingly positive, but it's still really creepy when people I don't know and have never met ask me a bunch of personal questions like we're friends, and get upset if I don't engage them in conversation.
The real issues are from interactions online though, as I'm "famous" enough to attract antifans and clout-chasers. It is absolutely true that some people want to see others fail, but there are also a non-trivial number of people who actively spread lies about well-known people in order to get attention (or likes or views) for themselves.
There have been a shocking number of times that things I say on social media have been screenshotted and shared out of context with the explicit purpose of spreading lies. And the few times I have confronted the people who initially shared these things (the people who knew they were being taken out of context for clout) they would reply with something like, "whatever man, you're a public figure". As if that justifies it?
I never had any desire to be "famous", I just wanted to share my experiences online in the hopes that they would be helpful to younger people, but some people believe that the act of starting a UA-cam channel is the same as consenting to celebrity.
In particular the part you mention at 35:25 is so true. People so often say, "just ignore it!" Yeah, that's easy to say when you encounter one asshole, troll, or pathological liar on your social media once a month or so. Try dozens of times per day and see how easy it is to "just ignore it." 🙄
OK, rant over. On the whole, I'm very happy with being a "UA-camr". The vast majority of people are really good and I've managed to avoid the majority of the negative effects by not appearing on camera anymore, not reading comments, and avoiding social media. But it's still annoying to have to do these things at all.
Woah crazy seeing notjustbikes here, guys watch his vids if you havent already its really good
Considering the side of UA-cam I'm on, you're a c-lister to me 😂 sorry to hear that you have to deal with that stuff, but thanks so much for the work you put into your channel!
Wait, how is NotJustBikes on THIS channel! :-D I love your videos, especially about Taiwan (lived there as well and love it)
im sick in bed today and decided it was finally time to learn about whats going on with chappell roan (before today I only knew her name). imagine my surprise when I learned it really just boils down to people hate when young neurodivergent women don't act the way they want or except them to. spoiler, I wasn't surprised at all! this was a really refreshing take after all the swill I was wading through
Jesse Gender once liked one of my comments and it made my tummy flutter and now I see how people can fall for it. Learning about para social relationships made me shift my language from "I love Lindsay Ellis" to "I love Lindsay's work"
I refuse to make the distinction with Dolly Parton. I love that woman, full stop ❤
💕 💕 💕 Dolly Parton 💘
The point about para relationships I got from this video was not that they are bad inherently, but that they become a problem when you can’t/don’t acknowledge the limits of the relationship. Although she does curate her self-presentation in her content, Lindsay Ellis absolutely does put some of her “real self” into it. I think it’s fair for you to love the bit of her you do know, while bearing in mind that isn’t her whole self and she doesn’t know you.
@@samsprague3158Thats _really_ well put, imma steal it if i ever need to discuss this elsewhere lol
That’s a good language shift, I like that!
But yeah, to me the scariest thing about those parasocial feelings is that knowing about the concept doesn’t stop my brain from having that feeling of connection.
I think a big part of Chappell's complaints is how these fans are trying to interact with her. Fans coming up and demanding hugs and photos are treating her like an object, not a person. I think she'd probably feel a lot differently if people could just be chill about it and maybe just say, "Hey, I really love your work and I wanted to say thank you for what you do." Obsessing over a singers life and trying to find out as many personal details about them as possible is scary and has already had very real consequence. She's absolutely correct to be fearful and to tell people to act right.
It's very important for people too remember that celebrities are people but I also think a big part of the discourse behind Chappell Roan atm is also tied too misogyny and anti LGBT rhetoric
I wasn't big on Chapell Roan before but thanks to this video I want to go all in on supporting her because if it sends the message that celebrities can set up boundaries and the paparazzi can get told off without punishment I am one hundred billion percent behind it.
I’ve seen a lot of comments on Reddit and stuff like “Wow I love her but it’s so tiresome hearing her complain so much about her fame.” It’s maddening because these commenters VOLUNTARILY click through a bunch of posts, articles, threads, videos about Roan and her complaints, then get mad they have to see/hear the complaints. Dude, freaking go somewhere else, the internet is not that small. Maybe “journalists” would stop milking Roan’s tears so much if these goobers stopped clicking on things they supposedly are sick of seeing.
Exactly! Just click away people!
Tbf the Internet is just algorithms now. 2 months ago I didn't know of Roan's existence but suddenly she was all over UA-cam. Compared to 10, 15 years ago when things weren't so centralised, the Internet does feel a lot smaller to me, and it's not as easy to simply avoid topics that are making headlines everywhere.
Do you know, since you realize that people voluntarily choose to read those comments, then you must also recognize that chapel voluntarily chooses to be famous. No one has a gun to her head. She is the only one making the autonomous decision to be famous. She could stop doing music whenever she wanted to, but the fame feels good. Let’s read the room guys.
@@MaffyTaffyHaffy Chappell makes music because that's what she likes to do, if she didn't she would've stopped years ago. It just so happens that what she likes to do makes you famous. She's allowed to complain, she's allowed to vent. She uses her fame for good things, she deserves it. It's incredibly dumb to expect fame to be all positives, when male actors have been complaining about fame for a bit and nobody calls them ungrateful. Especially when having bipolar disorder, it can be incredibly difficult, but she keeps going and making people happy. I went to her Berlin concert like 2 weeks ago and she's fantastic.
Very much makes me think of how Steve-O had foumd out about the death of his friend, Ryan Dunn, because TMZ called him to ask him about it. Many of Ryan Dunn's family and friends hadn't even been notified yet before TMZ publushed the "story".
Ironicaly, so many people complain about how far remover celebrities are from "the real life". About how they always stay in their own circle, don't know how much stuff costs at the supermarket and so on.
And then won't let them go in public without being mobed by people and tell them to just hire someone if it bothers them.
This is the best video I’ve seen about the Chappell discourse. I feel like all the video essayists have had their two cents about this topic but Rowan’s perspective makes the most sense to me.
It's the empathy, authenticity, and understanding for me. Rowan's takes are always so balanced and focus on justice, and she always breaks things down in simple ways and references other works/events to make you see a situation in another way. 💖 This video humanizes Chappell Roan in a way I haven't seen from other creators.
And for once, it’s not clickbaits and terrible arguments!
My personal take is: leave people you don't know alone, lol. The times I would take a picture or ask for an autograph from a celeb would be at a professional event (book signing, meet and greet, after a show/gig, etc). They really are just a fellow human at the end of the day. I don't know why you would want to a) set yourself up for disappointment and/or b) stroke a stranger's ego.
I can't meet famous people anymore. I told my favorite artist at a con that I'd followed him since DeviantArt and saw the light leave his eyes. I can't survive that experience again.
That's sad. I'm sure you meant followed his work not followed him around, wtf.
That is brutal, criminy
I don't understand this? Isn't this a compliment? I don't get why "the light left his eyes". Why? Because you're a long time fan?
@@blouburkette it's probably because he's embarrassed of his earlier work
That just seems rude of him
i feel like we're seeing history repeating itself time and time again when it comes to the treatment of female celebrities. stalking and harassment have severely endangered and literally killed people in roan's position before but no, its spoiled of her to ask for basic respect. this isnt even an unusual thing for celebrities to request, ive seen plenty of actors voice that they'd prefer if you not come up to them in public but because chappell roan was the newest hot thing it was of course bound to happen for people to jump on every thing she did in the future with extreme critique.
we need to remind ourselves that entertainers are people doing a job. i feel like entitlement to the behavior of celebrities and customer service workers both have a lot in common and come from a similar place. in both situations, you should understand that these people are doing a job and afford them basic decency
Didn't Millie Bobby Brown have to voice her discontent, when random people would approach her as well.
@@twiggledowntown3564men can do it, but fod forbid a woman does
The thing I don’t see a lot of people saying about this stuff is that Roan (and others before her) aren’t asking for fame. They just made some good music and are elevated because of their talent, not from a desire for fame. Chappell Roan/Billie Eilish/Charlii XCX just wrote some catchy bangers and now have to deal with abuse in this way. People using the "it’s part of fame/you asked for this" argument, are full of shit
if these people truly had no desire for fame they'd disappear 🤷♂️
@@summerm4911 Us minorities are still here dumbass.
@@summerm4911there is a difference between wanting fame as a person and wanting to put out art.
I do have ADHD and I am listening to this while doing something more important. Thank you for the help and the recognition.
SAME! I felt so seen by this line and promptly put the video on 1.5x speed
Me too! Last minute upgrades to a costume!
Yep, I have ADHD and I was grating zucchini for zucchini bread while listening to this. Appreciate the shoutout!
I think the k-pop industry really highlights the problem with these parasocial relationships.
You talked about the double- standard of objectifying women, but also criticising stars who express their sexuality. If you don't know the song "nxde" by (g)i-dle, you should check it out. It is a fantastic critique of both this issue, but also of being criticised for removing the public image and showing who you are underneath. I have so much respect for this group 😊
What I liked about the conversation here was the emphasis that everyday people experience a similar situation as far as being under a microscope thru everyday surveillance. I mean, everyone has had to adjust with the idea that, as the video points out, we could have our photo taken, or video taken without our consent.
Any time I see people engaging with the argument that empathy is dying, I think "that requires you to severely overestimate the level of empathy people were shown in the past." Maybe it's just being old enough to absolutely know that, but it really is a wild claim to me. People are absolutely more empathetic overall now. It's not perfect, it'll never be perfect, but it's growing. Celebs in the 80s and 90s could never dream of saying what Chappell said and get the support she has. But we also need to help people adjust to the idea that being a singer, a performer, and a songwriter does not mean you are entitled to her.
I also wish we talked about less sympathetic celebs in this same way. Look at how Blake Lively was discussed for rejecting that people on the street should talk to her about their DV experiences because of a movie she was in.
@@ruthie8872 Agree! I think the difference here is that Blake is perceived to be more media-trained than Chappell (and she probably is), and expected to have provided a more measured response in that particular interview.
@geektrash180 I'm sure she is more trained but I also don't think there's anything wrong with what she said. The question was wrong and outdated on so many levels there was just no winning.
@@ruthie8872 This! There truly is no winning for female public figures. I agree that Blake's response really wasn't that odd. In a vacuum it probably wouldn't have had the backlash, but she is being compared to her male colleague. It's the "look at the man being all calm and nice but the woman doesn't know what she's talking about".
@@ruthie8872 and we really need to stop labelling female celebrities as "mean girl" "rude" "entitled" when they are just saying what any of us would say. The "mean girl" isn't real. Rather than focusing on what the real issue is (parasociality and media ruining lives of many women in the industry), everyone seems to be focused on scrutinizing individuals.
Grateful for this convo. I’ve had an interesting lens on this surveillance as someone who has both worked on labor rights and also government oversight. I think this question of “what amount of power warrants the compromise of someone’s rights” is a really interesting and tricky tension. All the more so, now that surveillance has become so much easier!
Just read Bikini Kill singer Kathleen Hannah's memoir and she talks about this, after shows she'd talk to fans who often had stories of personal trauma she'd listen to (Hannah also worked as an SA crisis counsellor) and at some point it got exhausting and then weird, where people wanted photos of themselves sitting in her lap, etc. Bikini Kill and the larger Riot Grrrl movement had attention from mainstream media and the music press and she became a figurehead. I don't doubt that in cases where you go from relative obscurity to becoming a household name overnight this can get real weird, real fast, and Chappell Roan isn't wrong to want personal space around her when she's not performing and just existing in public, especially when it public attention goes from 0 to 100. I didn't go, but an entire Seattle neighborhood filled up just to see her, and that's crazy if you really think about it.
this is all so maddening, she's asking for basic respect and people are harassing, bullying, and stalking her. of course she wants basic respect but the internet couldn't give a shit left. as someone with depression I cannot imagine being at my worst and just wanting to be outside and I can't do that or I'd be mobbed. I can't imagine how insane going from doing small shows to huge Venues in just months.
I will say this always: Fame is abuse. Yes these people are rich as fuck. But no money in the world can stop Paparazzi or the internet mob.
I think your point of "parasocial relations being just another word for abuse" realy hit the nail in the head.
Personally, I've always been a little of the mindset "they're famous, why should I care", but your point made me rethink that.
Great video!
I think jealousy plays at least a small roll in all this. Life is unfair, and it's easy to even subconsciously make that an excuse for lashing out at people who got their lucky break.
And people think that the lucky break came easy, when most of the time it absolutely didn't. Lucky breaks mean nothing if you haven't put in the years of blood sweat tears and business to be ready when it happens, otherwise the opportunity passes right by.
4:20 Thank you for the shout out - Woman currently tidying while listening
I don't listen to Chappell roans music at all i loved her outfit on the vmas and now after this asking for basic respect i definitely respect her a lot more and i hope this helps a lot more celebrities follow her lead there's been too many times that they don't ask for boundaries or set boundaries and it goes to shot they burn themselves out and nobody wins
when i say that celebrities are characters i mean that they are perfoming a character anytime you see them on videos or read their interviews. we cannot know them. they are not friends. we have access to their public persona but that doesn't give us the right to even think about their private lives. it was made all the more clear to me when i read Elliot Page's autobiography. when i was a teenager i thought it was harmless to especulate about his sexuality. but then i grew up and realized that it wasn't. and then i read the book and realized it was just plain wrong.
just leave them alone. go to the concerts, watch the game, read their books. what they do for the public is *for* the public. everything else-- they shoudn't have to give up.
It's also not universally true anymore that celebrities are in possession of immense wealth. Like the way that actors are paid has drastically changed to where one can be both recognizably famous and unable to pay the rent. Not that it would be fine to stalk and harass them regardless, but the argument about what they get in return isn't even valid for a lot of them.
this is especially true for musicians! album sales used to be the main income stream for any music artist, but now that streaming exists they make their money touring instead, and while tickets can be expensive the tour itself is considered a success if they break even at the end of it and can pay themselves. streams pay pennies, album sales are way down and after paying all your ppl you're lucky if you can make enough money to support yourself! its way harder for musicians to get really rich like they used to. the richest musicians have their own labels or other music industry companies, are producers, have brand sponsorships or make money off their social media. not saying chappell is as poor as the average musician, bc she is very popular and her bills are most likely paid, but she's probably not as rich as ppl think she is
I love the range of perspectives a well as bringing in the Shakespearean connections!
I was so confused that this was a drama but that’s because despite being a pretty intense autistic fan I mentally combust at the thought of speaking to famous people in public. I do feel like it’s probably weird to have fans.
When I wanted to meet Star Trek people I went to a convention meet and greet because that felt less weird, they were paid to be there meeting fans so I felt less like I was bugging them. I just like making artists, actors and writers feel appreciated for creating meaningful stuff I would die if one of them asked me to come over or something that’s way outside of my expected interaction bubble. People who do want sudden unearned intimacy like that that baffle me.
emily dickinson was never on social media but even she knew that fame is incredibly fickle
"Fame is the one that does not stay-
It's occupant must die"
personally i'm terrified of becoming famous, and i would probably mess up way more than chappell has. i really don't see why anyone feels such a need to criticize these poor young people as much as they do. Although, when when a celebrity does something actually reprehensible it feels like radio silence
Thanks for adding to this conversation! Not to run to hindsight, but I do hope that this discourse that Roan has unearthed leads to a more proactive deconstruction of several facets of the celebrity industry. Abuse has been normalised to the point of being a problem that has no name for the famous, and moving the veil of fame’s benefits has been a pretty gnarly process in public talks. For me, at least, it’s served as a pretty horrid reminder of the ways in which people can rationalise seemingly objectively malicious behaviour. The internet needs places where concentrated debate takes place- hopefully content like this can be another contributor to the attrition on what is ultimately a current zeitgeist that proliferates idolisation, and with that, the removal of a holistic outlook we should always make an effort to use. Also more Shakespeare. Any opportunity to slag off Iago.
brat summer -> but maybe tone it down a touch autumn
I love your take on this, I've always been appalled by the lack of empathy for celebrities due to their social standing. Great vid🫶🫶
the best thing you can do when you pass a celebrity in public, is just smile and nod, maybe a quick polite "goodmorning" but in passing, dont make a big deal out of it. they will think you are way cooler than you think you are.
I think the main problem here is the way we treat celebrities. We treat them as objects, not human beings. I’m glad that Chappell is criticizing celebrity culture. Because yes it is weird to demand a photo from a celebrity. You aren’t entitled to their time just because they’re famous
I could imagine seeing her off the clock in public, and saying, "hey, I love your music," and not expecting anything in return. But then I imagine getting that interaction every 20 minutes in public and I know I would want to hide.
People truly hate outspoken women.
To an extent I understand it when children don’t quite respect the boundaries of famous people they know because they don’t yet understand what boundaries are and I think that’s where celebrity culture started. As with most things what made this much worse is commodification and with it normalization of disrespectful behavior.
It’s likely still the case that stars like Roan who have young fans have to deal with the most abrasive interactions. What I would wish for is a culture where „the adults in the room“ would be able to teach their children about where the contract between an artist and the audience begins and ends - but it’s not unlikely that the adult grew up on gossip magazines and stars being called b… for not being the most accommodating and always friendly person imaginable.
Another aspect of this is that the „groupies“ themselves can easily be abused by celebrities. A healthy distance benefits all sides of the equation.
Dont forget that this is Roan's job. If we all have the right to be free from stalking, discrimination, sexual advancements, and inappropriate behaviour at our workplaces, why should Roan have to put up with it because she is a singer? The problem is that some people are so unhinged that they will act like this regardless of how socially unnaceptable it is. Try convincing the paparazzi that they should behave better, it's literally impossible, and that's why we can't have nice things
As an autistic person, I do think the way people treat celebrities is very odd. Like people lose their mind when they see a random singer. But they're a regular person! Everyone is a person! Like what is wrong with people? Imagine being treated the way you treat celebrities. Do you think they don't like a regular human to human connection?
Sorry, don't know who I'm arguing with. Recently went to a Melanie Martinez concert and people lost their frickin minds about 300 times in 2 hours. But also the average age there was 10 so fair enough, I guess
I hear you. I have ADHD and never understood celebrity culture and worship. Sure, I have favourite artists that I love, but I don't scream my lungs out if I see them in public. I think that there has been a surge in stan culture and fans forming parasocial relationships with celebrities. It is fine to have favourite celebrities, however, some fans need to understand that celebrities OWE YOU NOTHING. Celebrities can have boundaries and can choose not to consent to hugs, autographs, photographs, etc.
It’s easier to care more about fictional characters than real people and that’s tragic
I think part of this is that caring for fictional characters does not come with any responsibility for action.
Y’all her job is singing not taking photos and autographs 😭
The photos and autographs are also part of her job but that’s during public events. Artists have meet and greets and photo sessions for a reason. Those are the correct venues to engage that way with an artist you like. Doing it on the street when they’re off the clock is weird.
@@adorabell4253 so true
I spent a few days in a theme park with a recognizable actor and I started feeling this creeping anxiety if we stood still for too long, because the longer we stood still, the more people surrounded us asking for the actor's picture and a hug. I wasn't the one being approached and I still found it uncomfortable. Said actor was gracious and stopped whenever asked, but there was also a private security guard who kept the crowd from getting too large and took on the "bad guy" role.
There was a psychology study where they compared brain activity when catching up with old friends vs rewatching a favorite tv show/movie, and found the brain reacted the same to bonding with old friends as it did watching familiar actors & media. Parasocial relationships really do make the brain think this person they know from their phone screen is their friend, and it's not their fault, our brains are wired this way.
Yes, YES! This is the defense of Chappel Roan I needed to see. I’ve never understood celebrity obsession and always thought that even if I had some talent that might have made me a celebrity, it’s a process I’d never be willing to pay. Excellent analysis of what’s wrong with celebrity culture!
There are so many actors/musicians/artists who are super generous with their feelings/inner selves/souls/experiences through their work itself. Catharsis through art and story is where these people offer their hearts.To be an artist putting your work out there *is* the offering. So many people make art because it is the way they've chosen to connect, because it is how they know how to best communicate and give to the world. And it's a job that feels so emotionally vulnerable itself. I think it's pretty gross that people are more into projecting onto the artist herself instead of appreciating the things she's created. People who create choose to connect through creation and the relationship between musician and listener is such a special one---the idea that people want to consume more and more of the essence and closeness to the artist---it feels greedy. Especially because there is so much art to discover, to listen to---so many artists are generous with their output itself. I think we can do so much better than we're doing. Being part of the group and community of an audience is a really special thing itself. Sure we're gathered around an artist onstage but we're all having an experience together when we see something live. There is a difference between "I love your work" and "I love you". The first one is respectful and celebratory coming from a stranger. The second one is creepy coming from a stranger. I think people need to get better at saying "I love your work, I respect your work" and understand that what the artist is choosing to share----is work. It's emotional, vulnerable work, sure. And it might speak to your soul in the way a lover would. But you do not know the bard just because the bard is channeling the voice of the fire god. I've gone too far. What am I talking about?
I don't understand why people think she's super rich suddenly
i think celebrity having boundaries is a necessary thing and in chappel roan case it would have been more productive to have an actual PR person script or outline something instead of going on a upset frantic (albeit deserved) rant on tiktok which conflated fans and stalkers in the same breath, i get being upset and scared, i just think there would have been another way to get the same message of ‘don’t be fucking weird’ in a way that doesn’t make her look like an ungrateful person or someone dunking on her fans and i think it’s more on her management team to deal with that better
Fandom, in many ways, is gossip culture at its most extreme. Yet, with the commodification of fandom spaces... it is easier for individual fans to become mobs of moral judgement, of condemnation.
It is one thing, to gossip openly and publically about a completely fictional character. It is another, to gossip about that character's creator or actor.
The dehumanizating aspect of celebrity blurs the understanding of reality and fiction: because something is "real" to a fan, their experience of feeling, of reality, becomes projected unto others.
The reverse is true too: someone else's reality is "less real" and thus "harmless" to judge or ridicule.
Consider, then, that "celebrity culture" is ALSO this:
"Karens" calling police on visibly disabled or BIPOC persons behaving "indecently" in public.
Children and Little People being grabbed, picked up, and even thrown in public because they're "cute".
Being followed and catcalled just because someone else found YOU "attractive".
"Celebrity" culture isn't limited to celebrity: any disabled, neurodivergent or BIPOC person knows this viscerally.
wealth disparity is an awful problem, but it doesn't justify treating any specific rich/famous people terribly. the problem is the system, so i guess my stance is "don't harass the player, harass the game"
I've never understood celebrity culture. Even when my hyperfixation was a band and specifically one of their guitarists, my interest was kinda removed and academic, for lack of a better word. The same way I was obsessed with dinosaurs or pirates before. Never felt like I 'knew' these people or was entitled to them or that they owed me anything. That seems so delusional to me and I get genuine second hand embarrassment from people acting like that.
I think you hit the issue when you questioned if the downside of fame is what the famous owe. I think there are a lot of people who need those who have an elevated position in society, be it a financial or social one to "pay" for it, otherwise they would be seeing people with a "perfect" life when they dont have the same. If there is a torturous side of fame then the observer can think "I may not have their money and power, but at least I don't need to put up with that every day."
This is exactly why I never jump on Pop Princess Band Wagons because the majority of these ravenous fans are only along for the ride until the latest engenue presents herself as more than just a kind face and pretty voice. As soon as she expresses any kind of nuance or complex character, she's dropped from magazines & tours & press junkets. I don't know if it's the fans or the corporations who do the ditching first but either way is abhorrent.
Their male contemporaries are almost always given grace & leniency when they have "quirks of character."
Why can't these girls & young women be shown the same kind of decency?
I don't think we can escape this issue without a strong critique of how Capitalism commodifies our bodies as products to be bought and consumed, as well as the slow dying death of religion which is leaving a distinctly spiritual hole in a collective psyche, a desire to hold onto something larger than ourselves. Celebrities are in my analysis, the new commercially available Gods that we are encouraged to both relate to and consume, with impossible and vaguely defined expectations of them that nothing but a God can live up to. Also, I disagree with the analysis that those who don't want to engage with the discussion are necessarily disengaging with a celebrity's humanity, rather I think that many disengage from a conversation that is in the end another form of celebrity consumption, the Discourse. I personally know a few famous people but I deliberately keep a very neutral and formalised detatchment unless I am invited into their world beyond just their work because its just impossible to know someone from just their work. Rightly or wrongly, unless the discussion is broad enough to cover not just celebrities but also viral people, UA-camrs and other people who suffer under the Capitalist Spectacle, then it still plays into the worship of celebrity and the removal of them from the human experience.
Contrapoints video about Cancelling and Lily Alexandre's latest video about The Horror of immortality really does cover how capitalism turns our bodies, including celebrities, into products.
I'm honestly so glad to see someone bring up the situation with Roan as part of a whole - something about the situation that's been bothering me is that even most of the people in support of her have been considering the situation in a vacuum, rather than a product of a whole where celebrities and really any online or public personality is expected to offer themselves up to the masses at the expense of their own mental well-being and physical safety, especially as it gets easier and easier to access them through the internet, finding out info about them and their families that never should have been public.
Justifying stalking an artist because "they can hire bodyguards" is similar to someone in a well-paying job where they're constantly abused because "they can hire a counsellor". Yes, they can, but that doesn't mean they deserve the trauma and abuse, and that doesn't mean that it isn't having effects beyond what you can pay for. And the same applies to artists, just because sometimes they have the ability to hire/pay for services doesn't mean they should need them in the first place. Everyone is capable of respecting someone else's wishes, and it's upsetting that they often choose not to, or that they're offended when someone establishes an (extremely reasonable) boundary
Something that like always reminds me of Michael Hobbs on You're Wrong About This podcast stating: Fame is abusive. While initially hearing that statement, it can seem hyperbolic. The way that parasocial relationships work is that people feel that celebrities are genuinely people that have special intimate bonds with when, in reality, they don't know who they are; but I believe the statement has validity. No one who is famous to any degree deserves to be berated, stalked, or harassed. And that's why people are famous constantly saying: 'There's still a possibility that I will give it all up and live somewhere in the middle of the woods with two dogs and a cat."
Money is nice and money can buy lots of things, especially in a society like America. But I'm too soft and sensitive to open myself up to so many people, along with the constant surveillance and entitlement
My favorite general subject in school is Social Sciences and Humanities. I've taken psychology and sociology classes and seminars on international politics and gender studies. Yet there are two recurring ideas that come up in all of these. First, that we humans come from many unique and diverse upbringings, cultures and ways of thinking. Second, that we each have our own approach and perception to life based on how we grow and develop in our early ages. Yet, in our current modern society, these simple facts of life mean nothing in the face of celebrity Stan culture and para- social relationships. Kayleigh's (Chappell Roan) situation is no different. Her approach to negativity is messy to say the least, but the public's lack empathy and understanding towards her isn't helping, it's only making it worse.
This is a very good video and I think you made all the right points. We can't treat celebrities as though they're not human and therefore undeserving of empathy. Going about life this way can lead us down a very dangerous road. It makes me think about how this kind of culture led to Christina Grimmie's death (which I was absolutely devastated by), and in a different kind of way all of the celebrities over time who have died or very nearly died of overdose.
Excellent video! On the topic of "Well they agreed to it" or "That's the price of fame, they gain so much more" (29:21) I wondered why was it so hard to understand the right to privacy. And maybe it's because, people who become wealthy and acquire social capital through fame and people who also are or become wealthy through other means share one key difference: it's more than privacy, it's that famous people have their right to self determination essentially blasted away. Their entire experience of living has to become mediated, calculated and managed by others. The absolutely wealthiest and most well connected and powerful people on the planet operate essentially incognito, on a need to know basis.
And I think few needs are as powerful for human beings as the right to be who we want to be, and change when we want to change. And to essentially give that up or have it taken away must be harrowing. And I think no amount of social or monetary capital can fill that void.
Alright, “money can’t buy happiness” is true, but it’s NOT supposed to mean “you should be happy you have no money”. It’s supposed to mean “dear Mr Ebenezer Scrooge, focusing your life on hoarding ever-more absurd amounts of wealth will not fill the hole in your soul.”
This one’s been hard as a trans person in the USA in 2024. As I’m watching my life become a political statement.. any time I do anything wrong or right it’s not enough. I won’t get into it but I’m not alone. However, having been isolated for 2.5 years and then blamed for it.. I don’t think I would ever wish that on my worst enemy. If you haven’t been stalked or surveilled, publicly ridiculed or hated just for being you… you should talk to someone who has.
I remember when I was on vacation in June, visiting my hometown and I decided to wear a more elaborate outfit for fun.
I was having a fun day until I exited a store and started walking down a less crowded street and noticed that an elderly couple were standing there, taking pictures of me as I walked past them. Not even trying to hide it, just standing there, phones out, following my steps.
I was too scared to confront them (I have alot of very bad experiences calling folks out on cons who did this) but I started frowning and hid my face and started speedwalking but judging from the quick view I got of them, that hadnt stopped them, in fact they started laughing.
I remember feeling so exposed and anxious bc. who were they? Where are those pictures going to end up? Why did they take these pictures?
It was so violating.
I cannot even fathom having something like this and worse happen on a daily basis . To feel like you never have any privacy because people feel entitled to you and your image and when you lash out they get mad and call you ungrateful.
thank you for accompanying me on my half marathon ❤
I think the most recent endorsement controversy was dumb. Saying that there are issues on both sides isn't an uncommon sentiment amongst progressives, nor is it the same as saying they're equally bad. We cannot reasonably expect someone who does hundreds of hours of interviews to never say something that sounds imperfect out of context. It annoys me that a quote, which is directly followed by encouraging people to use critical thinking, was argued is evidence she supports trump, especially since she's been so vocal about supporting trans and queer people in general.
Modern social media and tabloid drama HATES nuance and context. It loves extreme headlines, and interpreting things in the worst possible bad-faith light. Clickbait creates more views and interactions than any reasonable conversation ever could... *especially* when it's wrong. Interactions = money for the platform and attention for whomever threw the first punch. Good people trying to add context or correct misinformation? Interactions. Jerks just here to call names or claim "I knew there had to be something wrong with her!"? Interactions. Those two sides going back and forth in the comments or replies? Interactions. And a one-sentence lie usually needs a paragraph or more to correct, so we run into the "TL, DR" crowd who can't be bothered to listen to anything but the lies because they don't have time.
The Algorithm wins, and we all lose.
I think we see people replicate these behaviors theyve honed on massive celebrities in more niche spaces too. The entitlement, the desire for information or a certain series of behaviors from the apparent celeb, the demand for a certain experience in interacting with them or a certain life that they must be leading- i see it from that dude who played a character on heartstopper, to random youtubers who have under a million subscribers- i have seen people who making fucking skyrim mods be followed around, parasocialized, harassed and examined. Its like. Dude. We all are gonna be a lil parasocial but if you are putting this level of expectation on relationships that can never return it to you you will never be happy
i've honestly never understood or cared for celebrity culture. vaguely knowing the names of members of my favourite bands is about as far as i go, i cannot imagine approaching them on the street or learning about their private life. i care about their art, their music, their acting, and as individuals they are nothing more than strangers to me. it's similar with video essayists, although it's easy to feel a lot more parasocial when the artistic format involves the artist looking directly at you and teaching you in a personal-feeling way. but still, i don't know them! they're not my teachers or friends, just artists and scholars, and i only care to know the things they care to tell their audiences.
I've worked in a normal retail environment where, due to the location, you'd occasionally encounter people who were recogniseable, mainly actors. Our requirement is and was, of course, to just do our jobs. We'd get excited and there would be a little buzz going around the store, but the interactions were always professional. I think this interaction shows that it's possible to both feel excited by the visit from someone you know the face of while also treating them with the respect and distance they deserve and makes their lives slightly easier.
The other thing I noticed about these people was that it was like talking to a fellow employee. They interacted like they were "at work", even though they were shopping, with the same kind of smooth, open-seeming, professional friendliness a (experienced) retail employee affects. In fact, this made them noticeable even if I _didn't_ recognise them. I knew they were famous because they had learned to operate as if they were "at work" at all times. Some of them were even jumpy, like a teacher trying to go shopping in the neighbourhood where they work. That to me gave me a really clear insight into what it must be like to be one of these people going about their daily business, and how exhausting it must be to be constantly prepared to have someone be like, "oh, you're that person!" even if it happens silently in someone's expression. Everything is a possible report going to a friend or worse, social media.
Given it's impossible sometimes to not wear the :O face, what happens next is important. I think we can both enjoy celebrity and treat celebrities with respect. It's okay to get excited when you see a recogniseable person going about their daily beeswax, and it's okay to tell--but not gossip with--your friends in private settings. Depending on the situation, it might be okay to quickly tell them they are great, but I think only extremely rarely. It's not okay to take a photo, yell across the street, try to engage them in conversation or otherwise demand their attention. Basically, behave as if it's YOUR job to give them the space and lack of attention you give everyone. It's a kind of lifestyle democracy.
This is almost a versjon of what some well off people say to justify not having empathy or trying to help people in poverty. The “they choose not to work hard and be lazy” kind of attitude. That is of course far worse because it affects far more people with way less power. There is however something similar in the mentality of removing empathy because of a perceived choice.
We don’t want to have to empathize because that would be uncomfortable so we try and justify why we should not have to.
I think it’s a bit wild that we expect celebrities to be okay with general horrible /uncomfortable/ unsafe acts done to them by saying “it comes with the job”… all of us are bound to experience a death of a loved one weather it be a parent, friend, or sibling, but that doesn’t mean all of us just need to get over it when it happens. I think you’re right that it shows a lack of empathy to our fellow man, even if they are financially stable. Even if these celebrities are “jerks”, they don’t deserve continual harassment and crossing of very normal boundaries for the average person.
You can always tell exactly what kind of a person someone is by how they respond to boundaries. My peer counsellor has a list of favourite sayings and one of them is "other people don't have to *like* your boundaries, but they do have to respect them". I remember voice actress Ashleigh Ball talking about the sudden fame she got from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. She was willing to interact with fans as long as they exercised judgement on when was best to approach her - fan events? Of course, that's what she's there for. If she's at the supermarket trying to run errands? Best to leave her alone if she looks busy
A good person will respond to a boundary with understanding and attempts to follow it, maybe even apologising for overstepping or misreading a situation. It's like say, you set a boundary with a friend that you don't want people calling you after 11pm. A good friend will respect that and simply not call (and if it's urgent, preface by saying so). And if they call anyway, you'd be well within your rights to not answer and be like "what did I say?" A toxic or bad person would then use you not answering as an example of you being a bad friend
Celebrities have always been something of a 'commodity' for the public to enjoy. Back in the days of the first movie stars, they were all under contract to major studios, and their public image was carefully crafted, and they'd be forced to play along for the most part, with the stars not really fighting back until the 40s. And a lot of these early movie stars came from extremely poor or disadvantaged backgrounds, so fame was the lesser of two evils. So this idea of fame turning you into a commodity came from a system where the participants weren't entirely consenting, and it benefitted the people making money off their public image more than them
And now with the internet and social media, the boundaries have been completely eroded. You're not just sitting down to watch the TV at X time or seeking out Y magazine. It's everywhere, and now everyday people have become commodities too, likewise without the previous transaction of paying for the commodity or seeking it out. And the algorithms and platforms favour more content, and the public shaming that is often done results in corporate profit at the end of the day. I can only hope that this at least results in more normies understanding what celebrities have to go through, and thus encourages us to all be a little kinder to each other
Roan's ticktok came out about 3 weeks after a cosplayer was attacked by the man who stalked her for 10 years at tokyo's comiket. That people rallied around her partially because the man was not traditionally attractive and because he actually harmed her, but won't when Roan is trying to mitigate the same behavior is just so odd.
Also helps that said cosplayer is a relatively famous vtuber who has a rabid and very protective fanbase on top of her cosplayer fans as well.
Also that she is worried about hiring security for her cosplaying events in Japan bbecause she thinks it makes her seem pretenious and unwelcoming is so sad. She could have been seriously harmed by this man and she is so keenly aware of how even having security could tip the balance of good will against her.
Also as a microcosm of people doing stuff they were asked not to do: this cosplayer opened her dms on twitter to try to get help gathering evidence against her attacker and asked people to not spam her dms with well wishes, and people still spammed her dms.
People seriously need to leave her the hell alone. Jesus Christ. Nobody is entitled to anyone's time or attention. I don't want to see people saying in 10-20 years that "Oh we should have treated her better" or "we owe her an apology" after shes had a public breakdown or something like that. People should be knowing better NOW and doing better NOW
This. I'm so done with people apologizing and saying they should've done better after something tragic happens to someone, we know better now, we should do better now, there's no excuse to treat people this way.
Okay so my hot take is that the parasocial connection isn't the bad thing, but the behavior itself is. Cos when chappell roan is like would you harass a woman on the street you don't know, or stalk them? Even if the parasocial thing has made it seem like you know them, if you did that to someone you knew in real life it'd be even weirder. Like, you wouldn't stalk a friend if you do that's probably why you have no friends sorry. I feel like we've all gone through phases where we're lonely and we use parasocial relationships to get us through that phase and generally I think that's okay and normal. It's when your behavior completely disregards the humanity of a real person that becomes a problem, and that's not the parasocial connection, that's you. I dunno, I kinda don't like the shaming of parasocial connections because if you're isolated in some way and find yourself only having parasocial connections for whatever reason, that's okay. Just be aware that if your parasocial connection concerns a real person, they deserve respect and boundaries and they don't actually know you. Not that Rowan is shaming people for that at all, it's just something that comes up in this discourse that kinda bugs me.
Always love hearing your thoughts on topics like these! I really appreciate the nuance you bring to things, since there so often isn't space for that kind of discussion in various online spaces.
If you want another interesting exploration of the dehumanisation effect of fame and the impact of internet culture on public image, especially if you want to hear from another part of the world, I recommend the podcast series "authentic" about the korean hiphop musician Tablo and the "tajinyo" scandal that got entirely out of hand. I think it's a useful additional perspective to this conversation because it involves ideas of celebrity that are separated in many ways from the western conceptualisation of the term.
I thought I was pretty bad about feeling parasocial connections with UA-camrs, but hearing more about "celebrity culture", it's clear I had no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes. Jesus...
Thank you for continuing to being a voice of reason in the culture wars of our time.
I'm not sure there's much the average person can do about this. Back when Amy Winehouse was big I wasn't the one making up stores, taking pictures, buying papers etc etc. It's just the culture of fame, unfortunately. Millions of people get obsessed with a particular person, either through para-relationships or spurred on by gossip articles, and the celeb takes the hit. Nothing I can do is stop the culture, especially ib this age of social media. I'll personally endeavour to either leave celebrities alone or be polite, but I'm just one person.
I'm listening to this while building myself a bed, thank you for your validation 😂
Celebrities not using their platforms to help those less fortunate is the only thing I have issue with
one time i was sitting down behind a tabel selling art at an event .then surprise a youtuber i recognise walked up and started looking at the art . me being a natural talker said hi i like your videos ! thay look up and i see the shine leave there eyes thay mentally checked out just because i menchind youtube thay just saw me as a annoying fan and just walked away . i dont think this person is bad for not treating me like a human. some people are good in front of a camera but not face to face. now im not going to say i like your videos next time i see an influencer i'm just going say i like your hat.
respect works both ways. but i understand that they don't know if im one of the good fans or one of the bad ones.
how do i prove i'm one of the good ones.
Nah, that person was just a bit rude. It’s perfectly innocuous to say something like I like your work when they are the ones who approached you. This wasn’t a random interaction, you were engaging as a seller, same way you would complement someone’s cosplay or comment on a book they are holding if you knew it as well. It’s easier to make a sale when you have created some rapport.
Palestinians been going through this lack of public empathy for years
facts
I very much agree with your final point about not making kindness conditional, but I think the issue of celebrity becomes complicated when we're dealing with politicians. Politicians are real people who have chosen to become public figures who perform - not for the pleasure of strangers but for their benefit, as each politican supposdely represents their interest group. I still think they deserve empathy and that too-personal attacks are often not productive, but what for celebrities would be stalking and abuse, for politicians would be legitmate protests, e.g. demonstrating outside the personal home of a member in the government. Pretty invasive, yes, but a necessary strategy when the government is harming people.
I'm so obsessed with your gorgeous bookshelf behind you! 😍😍😍
LOVE your ability to take what seems tirial and expose it for the huge issue it really is. Thank you. --- For those of us with language processing challenges, it would help if you took a tik between paragraphs.. Just a little extra breath. Thank you so very much.
I think even with people we know IRL and love dearly, it can be hard to understand that everything we want to give them is not necessarily what they want or can always accept. When people really appreciate someone's work, I think they often want to give that appreciation form when given the chance in real life. But that doesn't mean the public figure is in a place to accept it every moment of every day. Of course to the person being rebuffed that can feel very painful--they were trying to be nice!--but we have to recognize that there can be selfishness in wanting to express your own feelings about someone. i. e. Empathy.
Engagement comment, deeper thoughts never.