SaltEMike Reacts to Fixing PVP and Looking at Cargo
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- The Video - • Fixing PVP and looking...
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For me, I would participate more in PVP events if the performance was better. The Desync and fps completely ruin the experience for me. Once server side is better I’ll participate a lot more.
Kinda my boyfriends take on this too, even just getting the FPS more consistent would greatly help.
if MM was gone i might actually play the game again
@@HurricaneTyrone i like mm
I’ve been getting 120 fps pretty consistently in star marine lately. It’s made it a lot more fun but it really exposes how janky the game feels. Theres a lot of bugs with pretty much every facet of the experience and the “server meshing gon fix it” doesn’t apply.
@@Gorilajo3 you would
One of the major reason I stay away from PVP is the risk of losing all your shit in a matter of minutes. Just honestly not worth the risk for the time you put in to gear up and get all your shit ready. Seriously SC is no fucking joke. I constantly put shit gear on if I know there is even a remote change I'm going to die in whatever it is you do. Even a simple engagement you get hit once and you don't med up fast enough your dead.
You should try escape from tarkov.
i somewhat agree we dont lose a lot in monetary value but time is money and if i spend an hour loading my cat and someone rams me as i get out of the hanger.... i lost an hour of my life for nothing!!!!! at least pirates are fun and a reasonable motivation but lets be real pirates are glorified griefers only looking for that LOLz when someone in comments calls them a dick.... hahaha the griefers feed of the comments not the booty they have no idea exist or not...
It's not that serious, you can just buy a shitload of gear at every station for very cheap ingame money. I've got atleast 5 full sets at each station just incase shit hits the fan. Me being the shit lol
You're going to lose it all when they wipe the servers. You arn't losing anything when nothing is permanent from day 1
@@paratrooperz1You could try not spending an hour loading it. I leave the station in a robe and just loot on the go, you can't lose what you don't already own. But you can gain more if it goes well.
Two words….long range sensors.
Seriously though. We need the ability to passively see ships at long range on a separate radar, while keeping the short range radar as it is with normal balance tweaksThen we can choose which ships to scan at long range to determine if we intercept. This will of course alert the ship being scanned, giving them time to prepare. Eg change course, call for help, hide in asteroid field, etc. We need to be able to set a course to intercept the ship and attempt to pull them out of quantum to interdict.
The traders take all the responsibility of the cargo. Let’s force those ppl into pvp. What a bold strategy Cotten, let’s see how that plays out.
Exactly, pirates take no risk, and can simply respawn their ship and pirate again if they fuck up. (For zero cost to them as well)
Traders can lose millions, this is fundamentally why PvP is so frustrating in SC
In general, combat pilots (lawful or not) have no real practical costs associated with failure. They respawn, either deal with prison or not, reclaim ship, and off they go for another round. Meanwhile those who participate with FPS gear or cargo have actual costs and logistics they need to plan for as the cost of their normal operations.
I know they've talked about this changing eventually, but it's been damn near over a decade and it's still the case that someone can put on their complimentary white flight suit and helmet after being blasted out of the sky and go again with no real consequences. All their components are brought back on claim, they get a fresh new ship with full load of missiles/ordinance, and full fuel tanks.
There is no risk for those in PvP solely in a ship perspective. There is only the risk of losing gear or cargo, neither of which is likely to be on a combat ship.
@@DeltaPhoenix180 i feel like the penailty needs to be associated with ships, add the ability to sell ships, and make the cost of an insurance claim the same as the reward for selling.
If me and my crew manage to disable a pirate and his buddy runs off, let my buddy commandeer his ship and sell it for a tidy profit, somewhere in the 5 digit range.
If i lose my ship, to a bug, i can still spawn a new one, go grab the old one and recoup my insurance costs.
Adds a role for towing ships aswell
The important thing is that now the "pirate asteroid stronghold" or GH has the same character resurrection and ship acquisition efficiency as a fully industrialized planet. In fact, the wanted pirates should have a worse initial state.
@@DeltaPhoenix180there was a time when usimg insurance got you a stock ship back. From what i understand, some day that will happen again, losing all your componets will be a much higher cost.
APB tried doing the Player A's mission triggers player B's counter mission.
It was not good.
Cargo players need to be more than glorified NPCs for PVP and pirate players.
I agree. Industry ships should be better able to defend themselves or more durable (Engineering should help with that). But as unpopular an idea as it apparently is, escorts are your friend. Hire combat people to do combat for you.
They do have a vision, there's a post where somebody (from cig) says that Star citizen is a PVE game with pvp elements. The pvp aspects are going to be more active when pyro comes on, which will be more lawless and based on factions.
Mike asked "How do you force that?" with regard to forcing players to use larger or smaller cargo ships (around @20:13 in the video) and the truth is that the game has or will have systems that can greatly deter players from using larger ships for short runs (and smaller ships for longer ones).
The most obvious of which is fuel; a fully loaded C2 with over 500 SCU of cargo in its hold would burn through hydrogen fuel in atmospheric flight like it is nobody's business, fly like a brick, and would need a lot of thrust to escape gravity again. Adjustments to fuel burn based on ship weight as well as higher costs for fuel in general (and specifically higher costs for fuel at mining facilities and outposts that should not be functioning as gas stations) could have a deleterious effect on thinner profit margins for traders.
The second of which would be adjusting limits on quantity and refresh rates for commodities at places like outposts, orbital stations, and distribution centers. Shubin Mining Facility SAL-2 should not be a major trading hub. Shubin Mining Facility SAL 2 is theoretically owned by a corporation, who has contracts to fulfill with other organizations. That is to say, 90% of the commodities that Shubin Mining Facility SAL 2 produces are already spoken for. The small amounts that they have for sale are the excess that they produce over a given period, which should be a decent amount that could fill a small cargo ship, but wouldn't even make a dent in a large ship. This lack of available stock upon delivery would discourage larger ships, as they would not be able to fly down, drop off, and purchase a new shipload in one sitting.
Instead, a lot of that stock would be centralized at distribution centers, orbital stations, and capitol cities, where large ships could find the capacity they would need (and wouldn't have the costs associated with atmospheric flight) to make things profitable and smooth.
The third system is already planned for, which is worm hole size limitations that would prevent larger ships from traveling to specific areas. But we can use that system as a guide, and limit the size of landing pads and hangars at specific outposts to discourage larger ships from traveling there, as they would not have access to fuel and repair services (which, combined with the increase in fuel costs and fuel burn rates, could quickly prove to be problematic in a good way for larger ships attempting to make cargo runs intended for smaller ships).
There are a few solutions to the pirate issue. One idea would be to let big cargo fleets burn much fuel when spooling up their quantum drives, or have long cooldown times after each quantum jumop. This would make many short jumps uneconomical, and the cargo convoys would take 2-3 stops during a route. Then, the bigger a convoy is, the further their quantum signature could be detected. Pirates would have to place exploration ships around a shiping lane, and they could tell them where to put up their quantum snare. There, the pirate problem is solved. Cargo convoys would have to be fast (small ships), or be well protected, or take long routes because of all the cooldown and refueling. Or you could send ahead your own scouts which try to sniff out the pirate scouts, playing a game of cat&mouse.
Unfortunately, CIG do not seem to try such ideas, they will just do the MVP solution, again, and complain that nobody does PvP.
Star citizen needs a capital or sub-capital (C2) sized interdictor ship that has a massive range. That solves the issues with small snare angles on routes and encourages multi-crew and PvP. If the snare can cover the diameter of a moon then it's an actual blockade. The thing to fix with this would be that after hitting the snare the cargo ship will be over 100km away from you if not even further and it would actually be difficult to travel to them to intercept them. One way to fix this would be to have the capital sized snare pull quantum routes to itself and drop prey a reasonable distance from the interdictor.
For the cargo portion: I think there's really no other way around it. Sure, you can land wherever you want, but does that give you access? Typically, an 18-wheeler has to back up to the loading dock to load and unload, as they crew on the dock isn't gonna just load and load from anywhere on the lot.
Then, of course, there's the issue of size. You're not gonna get a Komatsu 930 into that lot, let alone the loading dock, and fill it with goods. Sandbox or not, there has to be some realism about it.
If CIG is going to go about it the way it seems, small ships/small missions from little outposts all delivering goods to the distribution centers-> medium ships haul goods to the main distribution center/station-> large ships haul planet to planet/main station to station, I think there will be ample opportunity for pirates at every leg, and ample opportunities to avoid the pirates at the first two legs of the cargo chain. Unless you have a lot of friends or an org behind you, you should probably expect to be easy pickings if you're flying a big C2 or larger on a main trade route alone.
One way to approach quantum interdiction vs trading missions is to have the trader mission force them to QD travel to various way points in space (private beacon markers) thus creating a route they must follow before arriving at the final destination. This can then have counter missions provided to pirates with the same route information that they need to act on quickly to intercept. This should not require an overhaul of any current in game mechanics
They could also remove the option of changing your plotted course until you arrive, or maybe only the option to reverse and go back to the origin point. So if you want to divert past a moon you have to do it at the start. Can drop out and bed log or let security teams go ahead, but no changing angle halfway along a route.
A thought on the Snare, if you make the area huge to see ships to stop it should be like a radar. Then if you see 5 contacts before you can stop one you have to focus on just one and then activate the snare, then The other 4 are not affected and continue on.
How has Mastermodes raised the skill floor? Ever since it was implemented I can't kill any bounty target anymore. Ship combat seems so much harder now.
Add the Data Trade system to the Commodity Trading/Transport systems.... as in a pirate hacks a database that has your expected mission flight plan in it. They forward the data to the Mantis which in turn waits for you to travel by and snares you. I'm sure I've explained my thoughts incorrectly, but it has the potential to tip off pirates as to your expected whereabouts.
The idea that pvp is needed to give sc a healthy experience is a little off to put it politely. I want nothing to do with pvp. Period. I have backed this game for over 10 years and have never once thought to myself "i need to find someone and force them into a gameplay loop they want nothing to do with, blow their ship up and waste their time, or i cant find enjoyment in this game." I dont have to pvp to do things with other players. There are other ways to explore this game, relax, and have fun with others that have nothing to do with pvp at all. I play scum on the regular so i am familiar with pvp during game development. Its diagnosable! When i started as a backer over 10 years ago i did not sign on because of the pvp advertising. I signed on because i was led to believe i could "play how you want to play." None of us knows what cigs plan is moving forward but, speaking for myself, if they try to force me into situations, events, or any other "emergent gameplay" that involves pvp, especially if it deprives me of options like taking the long way around to mostly avoid pvp, i will just stop supporting it through gameplay and bug reporting and move on. Ive already stopped spending money on it.
Hurston is a Mid Sec System, its not patrolled by the UEE, the 4 planets all have their own law enforcement, it just follows UEE laws
Grand theft auto solved this problem long before this game was even a thought. If so many people demand PVP you have to have a radar blip for every player on the map, it’s that simple. When Im hauling valuable cargo I’m never in a major shipping lane.
The criminal counter mission makes sense. As (npc) crime networks would be monitoring high value cargo routes and sending groups to hiwst the cargo for a cut of the take of course.
Maybe add some NPC pirate events that will have a very high chance of spawning if you take a C2 for delivering a dozen SCU to a small outpost and a very little chance if you take a smaller ship? Maybe also have a high chance of spawning a player pirate mission from a "snitch" inside the chain that will tell player pirates "there might be a big ship going from there to there we don't know why it is so big for the mission it is supposed to do. As it might be some secret UEE thing we will pay you big time if you stop it. Take whatever you want from it as a bonus.". Maybe some rough marker together with this. Thay would help pirates find prey and perhaps naturally push haulers into smaller ships to go under the radar more easily? Or go big ship for those multiple small missions but take escort.
Edit: I guess commenting before watching to the end is not a good idea
You could take a transport mission from A to B.
As soon as you pick the goods, you are on a timer for delivery.
From there, you have various routes possible. The safest routes take longer. The most dangerous/direct routes are more quick.
Once you picked the good, you are on a timer for delivery and you can see your potential incomes being updated real time depending on how quick you are. The more time you take, the more your income indicator decreases because if you will take long to deliver and so will get paid less.
Then, as a hauler, you have to setup your route and make a decision to take or avoid risky routes, causing your delivery time (and so potential income) to be impacted more or less severely.
The PAY needs to be much higher if players are expected to be having a fully crewed ship (It almost always makes more sense to bring other ships) AND have the threat of being pirated.
I'd like for pirate missions to come up as a counter but those missions need to be locked behind reputation. Faction cargo deliveries. My faction needs x amount of materials delivered. So my faction would deliver/protect cargo. Enemy factions would get an alert to steal/destroy the cargo.
So something that came to mind watching this video, when he talks about "UEE won't be far behind" and Mike suggests that you'd be in a place where they can't monitor it. Why is it that crime is only reported in spaces where it's monitored by relays? Like sure PvE crimes shouldn't be reported by anything other than relays, but why can we not have some sort of SOS system where when we're being attacked by another player send out a hail to Stanton Security or something that says where we are and basically allows us to report we're under attack? You can put simple limitations on it to help prevent it from being abused like it can only be used when you're under attack by another player, and you were not the aggressor of the attack. This would also potentially encourage people to engage a bit more with pirates because now it's just a matter of time. Instead of someone just giving up or Alt+F4 because they know they can't win the fight, they just have to run up the clock and survive long enough for backup to arrive while pirates get the PvP they want without always being able to pick off easy targets.
The Corsair is a good cargo ship ... for getting Weevil Eggs out of dangerous space.
And I would love if just like the pvp bounty system, some cargo missions would create pirate missions. And it's realistic, spicy cargo should generate leaks in the supply chain. Shady people should know about juicy target and hire mercs (players) or try to use their own goons (npcs) to intercept it.
The initial idea about "In the wake of disaster" and etc is good - What if it had 1-2-3 items that gets BOUND to your account when you do that mission? Random, but either a helmet, cosmetic, a weapon, etc, that would make people REALLY interested in that for collecting permanent things rather than money and would incentivize more events like that
humm here is a thought.
Each location "size" is limited not only in Hangar size and UAC available to buy from sellers, but also their pad limits the size of ships that can actualy land, limiting fuel and repairs available, and also cargo unloading support crew.
If you land nearby you CAN buy all its inventory, but you would need to load your huge ship by hand with your own crew, as the location wont load ships not in the pads.
This would mean that you CAN do it, but the time wasted and extra stops to refuel are the price you pay fir extra "safety".
We can also select specific inventory as limitations.
Small locations produce raw materials of lower value.
Medium locations process these materials and produce simple parts of greater value.
And large and hige locations Buy and sell in bulk everythong, but also produce complex things, including ships, weapons and vehicles that occuppy much more space or need to fly or be towed to their destination.
So your huge ship can carry anything, but its optimal for the right size of location or job.
I think the economy, PVP in everything starts with raw materials and Mining valuable material. This is also true in reality and in every economy of every country of the world. Corporations need raw materials to manufacture ships and structures let us go get them and sell to the highest bidder
The way this guy is describing how cargo running should work is basically what Tony Z has been saying for the last 12 years. As for the spline shaped QT routes. We can basically already do that. And in fact we need to do that often because the game frequently reports destinations as being "obstructed".
I don't think we should be limiting how cargo haulers travel to suit pirates. If piracy is to be a thing in the game, pirates should be given the tools to engage in that gameplay. Like being able to track ships in QT. The game is supposed to have a scanning feature.
**REAL Quantum has Curves** lol
14:35
MMORPG's have proven that if players can solo anything they will. Just because ships are designed for multicrew doesnt mean players are now all of a sudden gonna crew their ships. If solo players struggle way too much to play mmorpgs then chances are they wont play at all.
Anecdotal but I will never play SC with a crew. If stuff becomes way too hard for me as a solo player, Ill move on to something else. I know Im not the only one
Sketchy mission = 35% chance a pirate mission is spawned
“People just aren’t caring about star citizen stuff” - I’ve been saying this for months, CIG is missing their moment. They had a window and the window is closing. Now, because of the direction they’re taking, and the exorbitant delays involved, it’s highly likely they lose a bunch of potential players forever.
The answer to player skill gaps isn't to slow everyone down so that an average fighter pilot can be competitive against a skilled fighter pilot. Fighters should remain the domain where skill rules all. The way to keep skilled fighter pilots from dominating the game is to enforce the same limitations on small agile fighters as exist in the real world - they run out of fuel and ammo VERY quickly compared to larger ships. Thus a highly skilled fighter is no longer a threat to bigger ships solo - they simply don't have the staying power to finish the job. Fighters must attack big ships in large numbers, and if the big ships don't have small agile turrets, they'll need fighter escorts. Thus you have a healthy ecosystem of skilled fighters zooming around each other living alongside less skilled pilots in larger craft still meaningfully participating in PvP. No need to slow anyone down.
I'll have to for one of the upsides of master modes. it really does level the playing field for everyone. i was getting chased around in my caterpillar due to having a 5 crime stat. im use to dealing with other players screwing with me so i was able to avoid getting killed but i need to get to grim and they were camping the jump point. so i left to get back up from a friend using a cutlass steel and has ZERO pvp experience outside of mishaps. So me and him bait the bounty hunters in a space where we can get the jump on them since they didnt expect me to bring back up. in a 2 v 3 fight we somehow barely won and we both got away with out lives. my friend held out against 3 players who all likely has pvp experience wit just his steel.
So even though MM has A LOT to improve on, it is working as intended. In the old flight model we would've got destroyed in 2 seconds and never land a single shot.
this entire video is based on the crap scanning we have now. You should be able to send out a long range ping and see people in quantum with certain ships (terrapin, carrack) . No mission requirement just need to know how to read the data you get back. Then all this "predicted route" shit is not sitting and waiting, its actively scanning down a target and identifying the interception point. You equip the faster quantum so that you can get ahead of your intended target. You don't need "lanes" or missions.
Trade lanes would be more predictable if cig adds "weigh stations" irl on highways we have stations trucks have to stop to get weighed. Add something lore relevant for space and that makes cargo lanes. If cargo doesnt go through the "weigh station" in space makes the goods unverified and wont be able to be sold at the target destination. Then lanes are created and popular routes will be pirated and a good cargo person can take lots of indirect paths to get to the targeted "weigh station" above the system and all cargo has to in theory go through 2 weigh stations. The pick up location and drop off station but can go through as many other weigh stations
Do you even have any chance in PvP as a solo player? Or do you have to do PvP in a big group to be able to play this game?
It used to be alot more solo oriented before master modes, before, you could skill diff like even 1v5s given that ur opponents were bad enough, but as of now due to the low speed limit, you cant do much when u get overwhelmed by like more than 2 people
Piracy doesn't need cargo lanes. It's space. That's dumb. You would also have to break the lore in order to explain why cargo ships have to use certain lanes. Piracy gets fixed when you have more advanced ways to scan for targets. Ways to scan further away and illegal methods to scan undetected by the enemy ship but noticed by comm arrays. Things like that. That also fixes the future for bounty hunters when that loop is more developed
To clarify, I mean that pirates can use more advanced and hidden means of scanning farther and to see the contents of ships, but that would alert comm rays and that would track their lasr known position for bounty hunters
i dont think small outpost should have landing pads i think they should have small delivery closets like in our personal hangers where your items come up on a hanger.... the best way to promote small ship in these small outpost is to make more outpost request less or offer less stock so that its more efficient to quantum boost to your main hauler sitting at a planet marker then back and forth to small outpost in your small ship or if you choose to use a larger ship it has to burn valuable time burning valuable fuel to navigate the atmo for a tiny time effeciency in your cat. example like a nomad can deliver 12 runs to marker in 30 minutes to haul 570 scu and cost 500 in fuel cost or 1 trip in cat takes 28 minutes to deliver a full load but cost 2000 in fuel cost..... so they are nearly equivelent in time but the cats single run cost 3 times as much in fuel to fly a brick in atmo
also make sure ships that park at common planet markers also have security presence and they only scan every ship every 30 minutes for contraband not random that way you can run past them most the time with a bad load but mainly ships that are abandoned to do a planetary run should be policed so that pirates are discouraged from attacking NOT PREVENTED just discouraged as police will respond to aggressions and in low or no security areas these common planet markers should be controlled by orgs to defend their trade runs from interdictions or pirates
cat will be one of the easiest fastest ships to load so its not the biggest hauler but the most efficient be able to allow entire crews to independently stacking without vision blocks and have any side or angle you can on or offload so other ships will suffer much longer loading times most likely logically speaking.
There are many choke points in Eve….Uedama and Tama to point out. You take cargo in your own hands. Risk reward is still missing in SC
Just make some trading route for pirates too: where are they going to sell what they stole? Give Bounty hunters advise of when and where a heist is happening, so that they can either intervine or catch the pirate going home to sell its illicit earns.
We have that now, they are contested quite a bit
Id rather not have dedicated trading routes because then pirates will just sit there and wait. The beauty of space is the freedom. I don't want to have to hire an escort just to make a simple cargo run
I pirate with a group and I recommend haulers to watch and learn. We welcome haulers to be better at what they do. ❤😊
12 years and $700 million later and the game doesn't know what it is yet, brilliant, it almost makes you as what they've been doing the last 12 years.
The bottom line seems tio be that CIG have no idea what risk vs reward is. This links to to their so far inability to make a worthwhile reputation and legal system. He's wrong on learning to fight others, they will leave if its not their thing. You can't run in a miner or hauler and if they haven't grasped that as yet then thery have more troubles than we think. Engineering is currentrly over complex. But the real issue is that folk wont hire assistance until it pays and then taking the risky option is worth considering. Taking those routes isn't what the more prro haulers use anyway.. Not convinced by his "I want my pirate game to be easier". Addendum, snare and other piraxcy enabling ships need to be reputation gated, and subect to impunding if used in a crime.
for me coming back to SC from time to time, i dont even know what WAKE or JUMPTOWN events are, what is happening, what can be gained, why i should be exited for it!?!?
If they hard-code trade lanes, cargo ship sales will cease to an all-time low. I don't understand why people want to make piracy easier. It should be harder. We barely have functioning gameplay, yet we want to overburden what gameplay we have with pirates-PvP-type stuff.
We are talking way more in the future, and myself isn’t saying this should be easy! The unsaid thing…pirates just sitting in Stanton…shouldn’t be as easy as it is either.
On top of this, every single pirate I have had conversations with want life to be harder for them, the main concern for me is interdiction is a really poorly thought out mechanic, basically any other choice is better than what we have now.
Forcing PvP will not work.
There will always be straight PVE casual players.
Even in EVE Online there was a large amount of PVE.
Pyro will help with PVP and hopefully it will be a 0 security space.
And if the risk is worth it then people will come but.
The problem is Star Citizen has no mechanism to remove funds from the game.
EVE online works under the premis of you PVE to earn cash to buy ships and then PvP which destroys them rinse and repeat.
Star Citizen needs more cash sinks, items that CANNOT bee purchased with RL cash.
I can go on and on but the point is look at other games and see how they fail and try to find a solution that matches Star Citizen.
Mike once again with the realness.
Oh yeah great idea for a pvp event, make it based around something where i want to take a reclaimer to do salvage to be met by a load of pvpers in combat ships. Such a surprise that im not interested in that?
its also not a sandbox if large haulers are forced to take a route just so they can be a target for a mission.
The fundamental frustration with PVP is that the pvp players risk NOTHING. The miner/salvager risks everything. In any other open world PVP game (rust, dayz, EVE) if I kill the PVPer, either I get to keep their stuff, or I get the satisfaction of knowing I ruined their day
So you need to hire an escort of 3-4 ships... great now salvaging needs to pay 10x the profit to pay for that escort
@@catfunt5583 Exactly this. CR is so hellbent on giving pirates PvP opportunities, he never considers what is in it for the haulers. Most likely is he doesn't care because he doesn't find it a worthy exercise.
@@Banzai51well the logical thing is your payouts should be higher to compensate for being pirated more.
If you get pirated the standard amount of time you shouldn't be worse off than now, if you are a skilled trader you should profit more.
forcing pvp has never work and never will work. I have played over 30 of these so called forced pvp games and guess what 28 out of 30 have had to disable it cause it drove 98% of the player base left when they forced pvp.
Nobody is forcing it…but the interdiction mechanism is horrible right now.
Which games for example? I am interested into that*
@@saltemikereacts It is forced currently. You cannot opt out of pvp in SC right now.
@ShadowGhostHD fallout 76 tried it and gutted it altogether unless you toggle pwi had it gutted it out completely. Wow tried to force it now its optional, and gta online gave up and let you do everything in private lobbies now.
@@justacat472 It's like there's this 97% of the player base is PvE-only, and 3% other. The reason why these games have tried/try to force PvP is it is cheap player-created content. Free money!
Unfortunately, that's penny-wise pound-foolish, as that 97% leave the game, no longer paying, and the game is left with the toxic 3% unless they go back and undo the forcing.
My problem with the idea of forcing industrial ships into pvp is that there is no balance for it. If you and one or two buddy's attack my fully crewed mole we have a total amount of 2xSize 2 Guns with 4 players. All there is to do is self destruct to make it faster. I have nothing against pvp and like to engage in it sometimes myself, IF i am in a suitable ship. I hate the idea of being forced into pvp in a victim role just so that space pirates can have a target. I agree that there need to be more missions that create pvp opportunity's and reasons for all kinds of players to be there. But victimizing a huge part of the player base is just not it. If we get more armored and armed industry ships for dangerous runs in the future that may change, but atm. many top industry ships are just defenseless. And don't start talking about escorts, that's just an unattainable pipe dream at the moment.
YoU nEeD eSCooorTs!!!111 /s
It’s hard to talk about any vision of pvp currently beucase it shouldn’t be just a single player ship, a trading lane or asteroid belt should have ai industrial characters mining or cargo hauling, now if there was 10
Ai targets for ever 1 player, you would have a natural defense / camouflage from the sheer number of other ships pvp plays have to kill.
You want the real answer? Bring escorts.... from within your own org. That's basically it. Or just be in the same server as them in case you need them. That's as good a protection you'll get.
I don't get the absolute refusal to consider escorts viable. You can send money just fine.
@forcommenting1017 the money thing makes it awkward I guess. Cargo runners want the whole profit. But that is the risk they run.
It was a good concept. For myself, I do not want to participate in PVP as I don't like combat. I have played the bounty hunting loop in previous patches and gotten up to VHRT's and got bored of it. Also at age 52 my reflexes for combat are not what they used to be. I prefer mining and cargo hauling for game play. Cargo would be higher than mining but CIG needs to really rework it. I feel it is stupid that all you can buy from the TDD's are scrap and waste. There should be commodities for sale at the TDD's that are needed on moons and stations. so that there is a back and forth trade rout and not just a one way only route (I.E, going from mining station to TDD's and them buying commodities the mining station needs at the TDD's and bringing them back to the mining station).
Maybe following trade lanes could give some kind of quantum speed boost, more people would travel them for faster hauling, pirates would get more catches. edit -these trade lanes would be planet to planet so to get the boost you can't start from a moon to cross the system.
These lanes could be funneled through quantum gates that somehow give a special charge to your quantum drive and then dumps the special charge on the receiving quantum gate. Maybe holding this charge too long would damage your drive. Again, you don't have to use these special gates cause quantum drives don't need them but you'll fly slower.
Ok, I kinda like this idea…idk how it makes sense but I like it
Maybe like a gravity slingshot?
The problem with PVP in MMOs is in the planning stage everyone wants PVP and in the live stage no one wants to be the fodder for the PVPers.
Because everyone thinks THEY'LL be the badass, until they're getting their ass stomped.
It's your classic competition conundrum... Fun when you're winning, not so fun when you're losing.
@@JasonSchwartz51580 well yeah that's true, some people have no lives and literally live on games and become so overpowered no one can compete. And if you bring it up they just say "waah, waah get better" but we have lives and don't want to dedicate every sweaty minute to beating them. And interestingly they are all the same people opposed to sbmm because as they say, they want relaxing games. 🙄🤔🧐
All of the discussion around cargo in SC is how can cargo ships be funneled into PvP encounters with no concern for what the cargo runners are getting out of the deal.
The more you force PvE players running cargo into PvP encounters the less of them will be willing to run cargo. People running cargo, or mining, or salvaging want to do those tasks and not PvP.
Forcing them into encounters will do nothing but make them quit.
They need to be able to survive and get away. So I would hope that since an industrial or cargo ship is already gonna be slow and lumbering compared to a like sized fighter, it will have ample survivability during the transition to NAV mode.
If I'm out mining or salvaging, I won't necessarily be annoyed about bailing and finding a new spot as much as getting killed and waking up halfway across the system waiting on a claim.
i think thats true for a portion of the playerbase, the rest will adapt and look for orgs or other players who wanna run security for them, i.e. another money sink we need in the game. if you wanna play a purely pve game wait for S42
@@wardaddy454 Not really, they need to be activity choosing to take a dangerous route over a more safe route. And most of them do take the dangerous route out of ignorance instead of choosing routes which are almost impossible to intercept.
If you want to just play a logistics game with no risk, then you probably should quit. That isn't this game.
Why not consider PVP encounters just another risk that is made ''worth it'' by better payouts. No cargo player complains about perishable cargo, or unstable cargo, i think risk of PVP should be the same, its not desirable but its a fun component of the system.
As a Cargo Hauler, I’m seeing more and more freedom being taking away from me in favour of pirates and not just in these suggestions but the game as a whole. We simply won’t bother cargo hauling if you make the scales so against us. I want to be able to control and decided everything I do, that’s my choice and my risk, not to be told I have to do things certain ways, ways that benefit pirates and PVP which I couldn’t care less about. What’s the point of hauling if I have to put everything on the line when the other players don’t or can just bail and save their arse. It’s literally always life and death for a hauler with all these plans, not right.
Please don’t feel that way, some routes need to be dangerous and risky, but many should not be. Trust me, I want to advocate for both.
If you just run cargo for fun…you simply shouldn’t make enough, but moving really sought after items from a dangerous system…should be dangerous.
I wrongly left out that a pirate shouldn’t be able to just sit there in a lawful system and live safely…life needs to be so hard.
If you want to be a hauler and don't want to be pirated may I suggest to you then is to cooperate with them.
@saltemikereacts shouldn't make enough? I can't get on board with you. If that is the case, it should be a lower amount, but never not enough. This makes it sound like if I want to earn a new ship or upgrade components I have to do pvp, a player should be able to do that in pve too, especially for newer players to earn up. not enough is not the structure the game should go but more money for higher risk is. If this is a miss wording please let me know but if not I can't support that veiw.
Bro, I dont really know how its forcing anything. You have a resource other people may want. People may try take it legally or illegally, it is how the world works. I think what needs to be discussed is the difficulty on taking the resource illegally, as in strong lawful systems very hard to do
at around 32:50 CIG should have pirate missions to pull traders out of quantum, but the pirate player is actually pulling NPC's out. At least in the first few missions while building rep. This can teach the player about this concept and possibly have them pulling real players out sometimes if they get lucky.
players gatekeeping the game and imposing their playstyle on the unwilling... what's new?
The main difference is that the PVE player doesn''t impose anything (except maybe not wanting to be content for 'PVP') while PVP imposes itself.
Make pvp consensual, a clear choice. Be it a toggle or some systems or whatever. But some systems should be completely safe, like you can't even ram other players. EVE (the holy grail of some of the pvp community - wonder why they aren't playing that instead of SC...) has that problem. If someone wants you dead they'll manage to achieve their goal. Pretty much tired of the whole pva spiel... make pvp shards; let them duke it out (can taste the tears already of the 'fake' pvp'ers)
Pirates crying cause the seals don't come fast enough. Funny
I don't like this whole idea of funneling players into routes so pirates can just sit and wait for them. It makes no sense, a hauler's job is to be random so they aren't intercepted. If the pirates are rage quitting because they get tired of waiting, find a new profession. Pirating isn't supposed to be easy.
Nobody is saying make it easy…everyone is saying how impossibly hard it is to do now.
@@saltemikereacts I get that is hard now. My concern is if you force players into lanes, all pirates have to do is camp the lanes and snare victims. It would make more sense to me to have a place like say Brio's that is a supplier of a rare resource that's extremely expensive. That makes a high risk high reward scenario for both parties if the pirates seek out those locations to look for victims. I just feel like putting haulers into arbitrary lanes is going to create nothing but problems.
"muh pvp why ?"
Because 90% of players aren't into pvp ? And 99% of players aren't into random pvp encounters but prefer when it's framed.
I disagree with SaltEMike on many things, but II definitely agree that death of a spaceman is a horrid mechanic that I hope goes away and never really becomes a thing as is expected now!
Death of a spaceman is a fucking stupid idea that will never make it into the game without a lot of watering down… unless they just want to be a shitty mmo.
pvp?? cargo ships and miners against fighter groups??? sounds like another sweaty pvp'r just wanting targets... how about sweaty vs sweaty rival pirate gangs fighting over things pvp away
No the gameplay for industry players is having escorts and escaping
Poor player-to-player performance means it just doesn't "feel" fun, add a competitive element and it's just frustrating. Also, the first time you try any of these events you won't know what you're doing and will almost certainly lose, which no one is going to choose to do when the game has so little respect for your time. If the experience was fun, losing (and financial reward) wouldn't be as big of a concern and people would probably try it regardless.
As a solo player with an Aurora I expect to be defeated by everyone, these events attract experienced players in groups so I'm never going to stand a chance. I think losing and going down in flames COULD (WILL) be an amazing experience in this game, good enough to fly into certain death even, but performance needs to improve and progress needs to be made before we get there.
current "pvpers" dont want to pvp, they want to gank and grief
Not the people I talk to they are legit pirates and have to use a website to get the interdiction correct it’s silly
@saltemikereacts do you think there will ever be a way to truly have "shipping lanes"? Would someone with a valuable load not find a work around every time? Like killing the qt early, jumping towards something else, killing the qt early, then jumping to the true destination?
Hate to break it to you but MM favors numbers and as a pirate it's how we do our ops. Sorry but cooperate or bring back up.
I think the reason for this is because it is quite hard to find organic pvp, and so they take it upon themselves to force these useless and boring interactions
More forcing non-PvP players into unwanted PvP is NOT going to go over any better than it has to date.
fact
8:40 - The fact that he is looking at a video of a solo player interdicted with like 8 enemies there, and he says that master modes makes this situation MORE survivable, and that this is one of the positives just shows how ignorant he is regarding combat. This is FAR LESS SURVIVABLE in master modes. In legacy, at least you could try to evade or run. In master modes, it is a numbers game.
To appropriate from Cypher (The Matrix). In master modes, "A little piece of advice. You see multiple attackers, you do what we do...RUN. You Run your ass off"
IMO 9 NPC to every single RLP with even 10 systems, you will encounter PVP but in mostly major landing zones and stations. Some will have high security and some will not. Space is huge dark and very dangerous. Space will be just as lethal as another player once all is done. If your a smart player, there are ways around most interdiction, but that will take prep and proper equipment.
We've already had a patch, where players were interdicted constantly and it was not fun. Getting interdicted 4 times crossing Stanton is too much. SC Needs to be well balanced between PVP & PVE .
People hate the events for TWO reasons.
1. The "dynamic" part is a lie. Its not dynamic.
2. The events have been the same for many many years. Most MMOs have dozens or even hundreds of rotating events. Star Citizen spams the same 2 events and acts like we should care or get excited. Sorry, JT is basic af and boring. Its not unique, its not impressive... frankly the constant use of it is fucking embarassing. CIG should have 20X as many events by now, this is just sad.
The guy who made this video can’t compete in a true skill based PvP game like Overwatch so he’s advocating for game mechanics that allow him to gank cargo ships that can’t defend themselves in a fight. What a low skill coward. Bet you the dude can’t even make it past 999 SR. 😂
In order for CIG to increase Star Citizen’s commercial release success potential the first screen that should show up right after character creation is PVE or PVP servers. This is the only way CIG.
Ngl the biggest factor in general is the balancing of the economy and risk vs. reward. The economy being fully realized will make a lot of this click into place. Cargo runs to places in Pyro to and from Stanton should be incredibly risky and lucrative to draw orgs and players to take the risk. Cargo runs that are from a moon to a planet will be naturally smaller loads and less lucrative. Quantum tracking is also a huge factor.
What if they have manifests? Like itenerarys that you can hack comm relays and see the possible routes for a trade manifest?
There is no economy in this game, that’s what’s missing
You cant force the use of specfic ships for specific trade routes, but you can make different ships more optimal. For example, limiting the max and min supply of cargo in a location. Major cities/distribution centers would have the largest hold amounts, with settlement having the smallest
I think death of a space man is a great way to add this "risk and reward" to both pvp'ers and pve'ers. You wanna pvp? Great go out there and risk losing something valuable.....wanna farm peacefully? Have some buddies or some good firepower and relish in their possible perma death (which i hope also means the loss of all gained uec)
You don't have to "force" anything. Using a C2 for box missions isn't a problem. The ACTUAL problem is value vs volume. The EASY solution? Offer a bonus for "full" loads of uniform cargo. All that means is that if I FILL my entire ship with a low value cargo type, It only needs to be worth more than the tiny amount of high value cargo available. That keeps high value cargo available for smaller ships.
Ill be honest, this game is shit. There is no incentive behind anything in this game. All games loops are boring as fuck, shallow and disconnected from every part of the game. There is no economy, there is not a real progression system. To make it short there’s a lot that needs to change to make this game good.
cig have said in the past , piracy is going to be incredibly difficult. itll require teamwork, skill, and even then you may not succeed. the careers mentioned here (cargo haulers vs pirates) were never meant to be equal. It was never meant to be fair for the pirates.
Piracy always involves overwhelming force and ambush.
@@frogger2011ify if you don't have 3+ fighters (+1 Q dampener) on top of the ship that's going to carry your loot. Your just trolling as a pirate
@@mhmm4840 exactly
The guy who made this video can’t compete in a true skill based PvP game like Overwatch so he’s advocating for game mechanics that allow him to gank cargo ships that can’t defend themselves in a fight. What a low skill coward. Bet you the dude can’t even make it past 999 SR. 😂
In order for CIG to increase Star Citizen’s commercial release success potential the first screen that should show up right after character creation is PVE or PVP servers. This is the only way CIG.
@@gorganhorn6872 piracy buddy is the opposite of cargo running and will never ever be "fair"
I won't fight over funds. Why bother, you grind slowly or fast. Your earning the same thing. We need more variety of content.
This game isn't nothing 5:20 its Something Different or a unnamed Genre. just like discovering a new species who ever finds it or makes it first Names it first.
The fact is... most people don't want to pvp, it's just the screaming vocal minority.
Yep, because NO ONE-EVEN CIG-KNOWS what Star Citizen is, and EVERYONE has their own ideas even CIG!!
Why would I want PvP? I'm usually flying non combat or hybrid ships and PvPers are flying pure combat ships.
Nothing CIG does will make people doing civilian duties - not PLAYERS, mind you, I might want to PvP at OTHER MOMENTS, with OTHER SHIPS - want to PvP.
Making them unable to run away from combat craft will just turn those pplayers into content, not real players with autonomy and agency - and it's just a matter of time those players also stop doing those duties (so no more content) by either becoming griefers themselves or just leaving the game.
I prefer very little PvP to CoD in space.
These guys just want to take down non-combat ships not real ship combat if I take a bounty 90% of the time they are just Hiding in a space station for hours I have sat their and watched it if I go in after them at the Moment their. Is nothing you can do
I feel like there is a much simpler short term solution. When pyro drops make the top like 3 most valuable commodities only obtainable in pyro but only valuable to sell in Stanton.
The pyro gate itself becomes the natural choke point. Now you will have pirates gate camping to snare booty, and people like me gate camping to provide protection, epic fights between these two “factions” and emergent game play galore.
I feel this only works if there aretwo points to enter Pyro because how would players get into Pyro if they get ranked right away. I know you would let the cargo hauler go so it can get the cargo then you pirate it but not every player dies this meaning they would run into issues of Pyro not getting populated.
I'm PvP averse because I don't like dying to another player's skill!! And I'm not at all interested in the 'kudos' thing of "besting" another player
Then this may not be the game for you depending on what direction they go in, but we don’t know….
32:07 For spawning pirate missions when risky cargo mission is accepted: allowing everyone (including potential pirates) to see that a high value contract has been accepted from A to B would make it sandboxy. Hide the ledger behind cargo rep for additional "espionage" gameplay
Why is he arguing making piracy easier at the expense of players with no interest. The game is not marketed as piracy play. It's just an option. Like any other profession.
Playing without risk just makes it boring imo. Seems like people always want the best loot without risk.
@pajuvi risk is one thing making it a pirate friendly game at the expense of others is different. Unless these also a risk for pirates that gives an automatic bounty as soon as pirate activity begins. It won't be balanced. So if you leak the location of cargo haulers, then pirate locations should also be leaked to bounty hunters. As I see it the idea is that you can ay whatever role you want. It should not favor one profession over another.
What if I don't want to use a 'trading lane' or 'shipping lane'?? Space is big, empty, I might use a route that does not require a shipping lane
Then you may never have any risk…which just isn’t great for a healthy game.
@@saltemikereactsThat's a space game for ya. It should be a choice. You can take your load through the much faster main trade route, risking piracy etc, or you can spend the next couple hours taking "the backroads" to avoid the pirates/security. There should be roughly the same amount of risk/reward and time investment on both sides of the potential encounter. You the pirate will have to take chances on this route or that route and will have to wait. Do you try to take the Freelancer Max that just popped up, alerting everyone to your presence in the process, or do you bide your time and wait for the C2 or Haul C that may not ever show in the timeframe you're playing in.
“How do you force that?”… to keep ships in certain areas make it where large/heavy ships can’t escape a planets gravitational pull… ie, if a fully loaded cargo ship like Hull-D gets in atmo it’s become too heavy due to gravity and ultimately will crash on the moon or planet
ur conclusions are so dumb but ur content is watchable
A 2014 study using machine learning models to identify player gender based on their in-game character gender selections and play styles (it turns out that: "players' character choices tend to match their gender and their play styles tend to be consistent with gender stereotypes") yielded an interesting finding. The finding was that where an MMO encourages PvP this leads to non-PvP activities (craft, quest, scribe) dwindling, PvP dominating and a primarily (90%) male player-base emerging.
ah that explains SOT
@@Ranger45k SOT is Sea of Thieves, yes?
@@Ranger45k What would be interesting is to find out whether a developer that encouraged PvP given the finding that it would lead to the exclusion of females from its MMO has been tackled in court successfully on the grounds of discrimination.
I mainly do industrial gameplay/cargo runs and I never get pirated, like ever. I actually get jealous when I see vids of people RPing getting pirated and Im like "i wanna RP getting pirated"....................but alas it is lonely out being a trucker 🤣
They need to make events like these COMPETITIVE. I bet that even putting some kind of log of all the “winners” would make such events more popular.
Maaaybe "Main spacelanes could be made with a quantum system change?
So let's say your Quantum drive searches for a possible target in a very small cone, if it's in the cone, and have a large enough signal, you can Lock, Load, and jump on that signal.
So let's say you lock onto a planet, its faster, but if you want to lock onto a moon for example, it takes more, so it encourages people to jump from planet to planet, without detours.
This piracy thing is dangerous. Things can go wrong really fast and the game be outrun by 10 year old kids that just want to wreck things.
I think pirates should have to work hard for info instead of a mission just popping up in their contracts list. They need to work sources, informants etc to know that there is a cargo being transported, the value etc.
If a message just pops up and says "hey, there is someone RIGHT HERE for you to attack" it will ruin the fun for cargo runners (like me). My opinion anyways
Pirates have the absolute best reward in the game by 125% they dont need more chances. Cargo needs to bee way more profitable to do stuff like this and than it kills the soloplayers.
Sorry thats a bad idea and a bad design from the root up.
Yea make a ERT cargo and a counter pirate mission an pay it high for the players they like to do stuff like that. but leav the causual trader by its self.
Make the same on bunkers .... some runs an HRT bunker some one with CS3 becomes an reinforcment misson for the Xenos/NT. Mhhmm maybe not everyone likes to be ambushed by players when half done with there bunker.
Every 2 hours Wake or disaster spawns?? Uh that was not my experience. I did 3 of these pretty much back to back with a buddy in his reclaimer we just warped out of a smaller system then back in it and waited for it to appear and it only took about 10 minutes. Not to mention we had no resistance at them it was just go there break up ships and profit. This was just my short and brief experience. But it definitely wasn't 2 hours because we did all this in about 45 minutes.
These people are also clueless about safespots throughout the system where people will be able to setup with bookmarks and than QT from there. Negating entire "Trade Lane" mentality these people are working with