Love Dr. Cline’s work. Can’t wait for the sequel and the graphic novel sounds perfect for my son! Hopefully this will help a history nerd father connect with his jock son!
I loved the Talking Heads reference at the end. But it momentarily shocked me coming as it seemed to do, from a senior guy with grey hair. Then I remember that some of my ol' buddies from the day, who were Talking Heads fans too, also have grey hair. You just don't expect things to change, or perhaps, it's more that we sometimes forget they have. 🎼🎵🎶 Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. 🎶🎵
@scienceexplains302 Yeah, I know. But it's like the t-shirt meme says, "it's weird being the same age as old people." Sometimes you get caught off gaurd, seeing someone who approves of your generation and culture, but looks like your old unce jack who'd snarl something like "these kids today don't even know what good music is." I don't want to belabour the point, but sometimes some of us forget how old we are. When we see old people like us, we accidentally associate them with old people like those we knew in our teens or 20s. It's a temporary lapse. I'll try not to let it happen again. Sorry 😪
@@skepticusmaximus184 I was resisting replying to this, but I'm curious as to what your point is and exactly why it seems strange to you that Glynnis and I quoted the Talking Heads in the graphic version of 1177 BC? I've been listening to them since they began -- the Talking Heads formed up while I was just starting high school (1975) and I saw them live in Athens, Greece, in 1982, when I was 22. So, they are from my generation and I've been listening to them for almost 50 years...Hmmm; maybe that does make me an "old person"... 🙂 (And, for what it's worth, I've had grey hair since I was 30...nothing to do with age, at least not originally...). Be well and enjoy the books, if you decide to try them (come for the jokes, stay for the history). Cheers.
My only point is that I enjoyed the reference to Talking Heads but as aside It reminded me how old I am. What I was trying to say is that I shouldn't be surprised. But I often catch myself forgetting I'm that old. And grey hair looks very nice BTW, but it usually doesn't arise until people hit their 50s or so. I'm definitely tempted by the book, but this isn't my usual wheelhouse. This discussion was an interesting digression and it's peaked my curiosity for sure. Thanks for your dedication and I will definitely reconsider getting the book.
Thank you for respecting the medium of comic books. I've known about the book for a few years, but I read books so slowly I'm hesitant to get it, though it does interest me. So I will definitely get the graphic novel. To get the same information in a medium I can digest is exactly what I want. I'll potentially get the book later. Reading books is easier when I know the content already.
1177 is such a great read; I am excited about the sequel. An interesting thing about the early Iron Age is the overlap with the histories of Israel and Judah.
Both answers are true. On the coast Phoenicia expanded in the late contraction of the Egyptians. Haifa (Sammacirus), Dora and Yoppo were part of the Phonecian city state complex which at times may have extended further south. Between the coast and the hills there was a contested zone between the philistines and the other groups. So let’s examine the hills. While the archaeological evidence is not evident of a rebuilding, the Israelite name itself is borrowing from a thirteenth century Identity and an attempt to resurrect the old Canaanite/mesopotamian ‘El, the most high. This is not the only connection with Mesopotamia. There is a surviving cult centers to Anath, at least three survive and the Judges speak to this, which more than likely Joshua is a highly spun tale. Moreover, the city devoted to Asherah, Luz, appears to have survived. The city of Jerusalem appears to have survived, but we have to consider its downfall might be the result of over exaggerating its size going into the LBAC, modern archaeology suggests it was not that large. To some lesser extent Jericho survived, meggido and Hazor again to so lesser extent survived. Beth Lahmi appears to have survived but was toppled later by the philistines. The name given to one of the tribes Gad, appears to derive from the site at the base of Mt. Hermon to Ba’al Gad, so this tribe was forced to move east. So then we have the measures of success. The original language would have been cuneiform used by the priest of Anath, Lahmi/Enki, El and other “Babylonian” era gods. There is no evidence that this language was used at all after the collapse in the Judean hills. The first signs of language in the hill region is from the later half of the ninth century, but Israel Finklestein stein thinks that king Omri, in the earlier part of the ninth century had writing and administration, it was likely phonecian. So it appears that the written language of preference of the eastward leaning religious cults were lost in favor to phonecian. So that places the Judean hills way down in the 0-1 range. Let’s talk about increasing that. The Israelite confederation in Judges appears to be interested in trade, they had at the time both olive oil and wine as a sellable commodity as well as wool and sheep and goat based products they could sell. In addition there was the Arabian spice trade which prior to 850 would have been through either the confederation or the philistines. At times the philistines did try to shut down the trade, however the Israelites managed to pry trade routes back open again. And Phoenicians did not appear to be an enemy, so it appears at time the Israelites felt they were part of this Phoenicia and other times not. The bigger bane to its existence laid to the east, the tribes of Aram and were an existential threat to the confederation, but more importantly before the Assyrian expansion in the 9th and 10th century the Aramaic tribes of the lower and middle Euphrates were an impediment to trade with Babylon and Sealand. As a consequence extending lucrative trade between Egypt, Arabia, Assyria and Babylon was crippled by lawless groups. While Israel was weak the conflict with Assyria in the 11 kingdoms war indicates its counterparts to its north were even weaker, some ceasing to exist. Israel survived to 722. So within those 11 kingdoms, the kingdom of Israel was probably #2. Again that is 9th century, but it’s indicative that the southern hill region was prospering. So let’s put this in perspective the Egyptian collapse in Canaan is 1120 to 1130 BCE. King Omri was 870. So this is a span of 260 years. We don’t have any real evidence of a kingdom before this, but given the move of the capital it may have been some type of overthrow. So the confederation is roughly 1050 to 1100 in origin. I would say this is full collapse but we might also point that some of the local leaders here may have pushed the Egyptians. So there might be some organization. They might have been anti-scribal which explains the loss of cuneiform. The song of Deborah indicates that some of the more culturally preserved cities might have had administrations based in the priestly classes. At this time the confederation appears to be dominated by goddesses, so the focus was on fertility (population growth and planting). Later on we see these cults fade into the background and what emerges are cults that engage in more ritual violence culminating in the early kingdoms. So it appears by the 1020 or so there was a show, then it was a matter of who had the balls to run it. This aggregation of micro-polities into city states was happening all over the Levant. First order of business survive and build up sustenance agriculture, next fight over who is going to control it. So the answer is there were spots where complete collapse occurred, but not everywhere. There was a residue of culture at geographic points that expanded. The writing system of the Phoenician either superseded discontinuously the earlier language or replaced a tiny residual tradition, an indication of Phoenician economic power.
I think the "water thing" going on between Mexico and the US is related to the distribution of the Colorado water. The treaty grants about half of it to California, distributes the other half among the other states and Mexico has to make due with whatever comes down the river.
Interesting discussion about lessons for our civilisation today. Personally I think I would place most 'western' societies in category 3 with the ancient Egyptians. Lengthy histories with masses of tradition, long lists of civil achievements but also weighed down by those very same histories and traditions, so possibly not possessing the ability for nimble transformation should it ever become necessary.
@digkabri Dr Cline, in the section on the southern levant, you talk about Israel, Judah, Moab, Edom "replacing" the caananites. And, you mention the biblical narrative of the Israelites conquering Jericho. My impression is that most current historians and archaeologists think that the Israelites, et al, were always in the region, and the "replacement" was more of a transformation of the local civilizations, rather than a replacement by outsiders. That may have been just my impression from the live interview. But, if there is a disagreement there, do you discuss in more detail in your book?
@DigitalHammurabi - Megan, you said read the graphic novel - but I want to know what your personal focus group thought of it! Did you give it to (or, read it to) your kids?
I presume that if bronze disappeared, it is as if money disappear. Nobody can pay for anything. It impacts everything. If there is a drought in addition, it is extremely difficult to start out as a farmer. The most interesting is that there are no quoted texts about bronze trade networks collapses.
He shouldn't call his next book "the clash of civilisation". It sounds too much like Samuel Huntington. He should call it "Age of Wonder" maybe as this was one of the first time the civilisation that rose were starting obsessing with the past, the great ruins and wonders of a world past.
The dating is off, we use to have 360 day now 365. 2012 happens in 2040 called the phoenix in 2046 Nemesis X, Niberu. The world resets every 792 years with earthquakes, volcanoes, mud floods, earth shifts. Watch Archaix, he has all timelines past and future for end of civilizations and ppl to go replenish the earth.
The kings point of view. “Lawless vermin came from Aram, they seized, plundered and defiled our women, we made ash of them” the peoples point of view “aaaaaarrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh” Followed by “they are coming to rescue us” Followed by “Aaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhh”[croak].
26:39 "the intergovernmental panel on climate change which um those are the guys that every year they say we're all going to die uh because of climate change and weather and all of that " - no, the IPCC does not do that. Love the work of Dr. Cline, but his off-hand (perhaps intended to be humorous) remark here really misses the mark. First off, the IPCC reports are spaced out over several years. Secondly, the IPCC does not say "we're all going to die". Indeed, many climate specialists lament at how conservative the IPCC is, claiming the IPCC understates the severity of the problem.
The fall of the Roman Empire and the Bronze Age collapse didn’t influence Asian or American civilisations, they were fairly local as well. So pretending they were far more important on a global scale is not right.
I am not "pretending they were far more important on a global scale." Why don't you read the book and then we can discuss what I am or am not claiming, once you know what I actually say?
Oh, I hadn't heard about the new book yet. Excited to read it!
Will it be useful for your charts?
It’s great bought the audiobook the day it came out.
Very highly recommended. If you enjoyed the first book then you'll very much enjoy the sequel.
Thst was really interesting, thanks for having Dr Cline on.
Awesome episode!!!!
I enjoyed that. Great guest and topic.
Love Dr. Cline’s work. Can’t wait for the sequel and the graphic novel sounds perfect for my son! Hopefully this will help a history nerd father connect with his jock son!
Good luck! Let me know if it works!
I'm actually about to start re-reading his book. Funnily enough it sits right next to Josh's on my bookshelf!
That was really great. I will be getting a copy of the graphic novel for my one year old and hiding it away until he can read!
I loved the Talking Heads reference at the end. But it momentarily shocked me coming as it seemed to do, from a senior guy with grey hair. Then I remember that some of my ol' buddies from the day, who were Talking Heads fans too, also have grey hair. You just don't expect things to change, or perhaps, it's more that we sometimes forget they have.
🎼🎵🎶 Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. 🎶🎵
You’re referencing a song, Once in a Lifetime, from 44 years ago and astonished that older people know it?
@scienceexplains302 Yeah, I know. But it's like the t-shirt meme says, "it's weird being the same age as old people." Sometimes you get caught off gaurd, seeing someone who approves of your generation and culture, but looks like your old unce jack who'd snarl something like "these kids today don't even know what good music is." I don't want to belabour the point, but sometimes some of us forget how old we are. When we see old people like us, we accidentally associate them with old people like those we knew in our teens or 20s. It's a temporary lapse. I'll try not to let it happen again. Sorry 😪
@@skepticusmaximus184 That makes sense
@@skepticusmaximus184 I was resisting replying to this, but I'm curious as to what your point is and exactly why it seems strange to you that Glynnis and I quoted the Talking Heads in the graphic version of 1177 BC? I've been listening to them since they began -- the Talking Heads formed up while I was just starting high school (1975) and I saw them live in Athens, Greece, in 1982, when I was 22. So, they are from my generation and I've been listening to them for almost 50 years...Hmmm; maybe that does make me an "old person"... 🙂 (And, for what it's worth, I've had grey hair since I was 30...nothing to do with age, at least not originally...). Be well and enjoy the books, if you decide to try them (come for the jokes, stay for the history). Cheers.
My only point is that I enjoyed the reference to Talking Heads but as aside It reminded me how old I am. What I was trying to say is that I shouldn't be surprised. But I often catch myself forgetting I'm that old. And grey hair looks very nice BTW, but it usually doesn't arise until people hit their 50s or so. I'm definitely tempted by the book, but this isn't my usual wheelhouse. This discussion was an interesting digression and it's peaked my curiosity for sure. Thanks for your dedication and I will definitely reconsider getting the book.
I needed this today. Thank you.
I've never bought a book so fast...had to pause the video to confirm my purchase. Thank you Dr Cline for your dedication to history.❤
How was it? Have you read both?
Such a good interview! I didn't know the existance of these books. Thank you so much ❤
That was great! It inspired me to just now order Dr Cline's 3 books on the Collapse and his book on the history of Armageddon.
I just received both books yesterday for Father’s Day. I’m in chapter one and I’ve got chills already!
Dr. Cline is very easy to listen to.
WOW! Such a fascinating interview! Now there's yet ANOTHER book I want.
I can't believe I'm just discovering this, great host and speaker, very interesting topic
Thank you for respecting the medium of comic books. I've known about the book for a few years, but I read books so slowly I'm hesitant to get it, though it does interest me. So I will definitely get the graphic novel. To get the same information in a medium I can digest is exactly what I want. I'll potentially get the book later. Reading books is easier when I know the content already.
Great! Hope you like the graphic version!
Thank you.
1177 is such a great read; I am excited about the sequel.
An interesting thing about the early Iron Age is the overlap with the histories of Israel and Judah.
Someone get Megan a PBS show 🧡
Both answers are true.
On the coast Phoenicia expanded in the late contraction of the Egyptians. Haifa (Sammacirus), Dora and Yoppo were part of the Phonecian city state complex which at times may have extended further south.
Between the coast and the hills there was a contested zone between the philistines and the other groups.
So let’s examine the hills. While the archaeological evidence is not evident of a rebuilding, the Israelite name itself is borrowing from a thirteenth century Identity and an attempt to resurrect the old Canaanite/mesopotamian ‘El, the most high. This is not the only connection with Mesopotamia. There is a surviving cult centers to Anath, at least three survive and the Judges speak to this, which more than likely Joshua is a highly spun tale. Moreover, the city devoted to Asherah, Luz, appears to have survived. The city of Jerusalem appears to have survived, but we have to consider its downfall might be the result of over exaggerating its size going into the LBAC, modern archaeology suggests it was not that large. To some lesser extent Jericho survived, meggido and Hazor again to so lesser extent survived. Beth Lahmi appears to have survived but was toppled later by the philistines. The name given to one of the tribes Gad, appears to derive from the site at the base of Mt. Hermon to Ba’al Gad, so this tribe was forced to move east.
So then we have the measures of success. The original language would have been cuneiform used by the priest of Anath, Lahmi/Enki, El and other “Babylonian” era gods. There is no evidence that this language was used at all after the collapse in the Judean hills. The first signs of language in the hill region is from the later half of the ninth century, but Israel Finklestein stein thinks that king Omri, in the earlier part of the ninth century had writing and administration, it was likely phonecian. So it appears that the written language of preference of the eastward leaning religious cults were lost in favor to phonecian. So that places the Judean hills way down in the 0-1 range.
Let’s talk about increasing that. The Israelite confederation in Judges appears to be interested in trade, they had at the time both olive oil and wine as a sellable commodity as well as wool and sheep and goat based products they could sell. In addition there was the Arabian spice trade which prior to 850 would have been through either the confederation or the philistines. At times the philistines did try to shut down the trade, however the Israelites managed to pry trade routes back open again. And Phoenicians did not appear to be an enemy, so it appears at time the Israelites felt they were part of this Phoenicia and other times not.
The bigger bane to its existence laid to the east, the tribes of Aram and were an existential threat to the confederation, but more importantly before the Assyrian expansion in the 9th and 10th century the Aramaic tribes of the lower and middle Euphrates were an impediment to trade with Babylon and Sealand. As a consequence extending lucrative trade between Egypt, Arabia, Assyria and Babylon was crippled by lawless groups. While Israel was weak the conflict with Assyria in the 11 kingdoms war indicates its counterparts to its north were even weaker, some ceasing to exist. Israel survived to 722. So within those 11 kingdoms, the kingdom of Israel was probably #2. Again that is 9th century, but it’s indicative that the southern hill region was prospering.
So let’s put this in perspective the Egyptian collapse in Canaan is 1120 to 1130 BCE. King Omri was 870. So this is a span of 260 years. We don’t have any real evidence of a kingdom before this, but given the move of the capital it may have been some type of overthrow. So the confederation is roughly 1050 to 1100 in origin. I would say this is full collapse but we might also point that some of the local leaders here may have pushed the Egyptians. So there might be some organization. They might have been anti-scribal which explains the loss of cuneiform.
The song of Deborah indicates that some of the more culturally preserved cities might have had administrations based in the priestly classes. At this time the confederation appears to be dominated by goddesses, so the focus was on fertility (population growth and planting). Later on we see these cults fade into the background and what emerges are cults that engage in more ritual violence culminating in the early kingdoms. So it appears by the 1020 or so there was a show, then it was a matter of who had the balls to run it. This aggregation of micro-polities into city states was happening all over the Levant. First order of business survive and build up sustenance agriculture, next fight over who is going to control it.
So the answer is there were spots where complete collapse occurred, but not everywhere. There was a residue of culture at geographic points that expanded. The writing system of the Phoenician either superseded discontinuously the earlier language or replaced a tiny residual tradition, an indication of Phoenician economic power.
I think the "water thing" going on between Mexico and the US is related to the distribution of the Colorado water. The treaty grants about half of it to California, distributes the other half among the other states and Mexico has to make due with whatever comes down the river.
Interesting discussion about lessons for our civilisation today. Personally I think I would place most 'western' societies in category 3 with the ancient Egyptians. Lengthy histories with masses of tradition, long lists of civil achievements but also weighed down by those very same histories and traditions, so possibly not possessing the ability for nimble transformation should it ever become necessary.
@digkabri Dr Cline, in the section on the southern levant, you talk about Israel, Judah, Moab, Edom "replacing" the caananites. And, you mention the biblical narrative of the Israelites conquering Jericho. My impression is that most current historians and archaeologists think that the Israelites, et al, were always in the region, and the "replacement" was more of a transformation of the local civilizations, rather than a replacement by outsiders.
That may have been just my impression from the live interview. But, if there is a disagreement there, do you discuss in more detail in your book?
Yes; I discuss exactly that debate/problem in more detail in the book.
@DigitalHammurabi - Megan, you said read the graphic novel - but I want to know what your personal focus group thought of it! Did you give it to (or, read it to) your kids?
I presume that if bronze disappeared, it is as if money disappear. Nobody can pay for anything. It impacts everything. If there is a drought in addition, it is extremely difficult to start out as a farmer.
The most interesting is that there are no quoted texts about bronze trade networks collapses.
🖐🏽Megan
He shouldn't call his next book "the clash of civilisation". It sounds too much like Samuel Huntington. He should call it "Age of Wonder" maybe as this was one of the first time the civilisation that rose were starting obsessing with the past, the great ruins and wonders of a world past.
The subtitle will actually be “the clashing of civilizations”, but it is indeed a play on Samuel Huntington’s original article and book.
It ended in 2012. No-one noticed.
The dating is off, we use to have 360 day now 365. 2012 happens in 2040 called the phoenix in 2046 Nemesis X, Niberu. The world resets every 792 years with earthquakes, volcanoes, mud floods, earth shifts. Watch Archaix, he has all timelines past and future for end of civilizations and ppl to go replenish the earth.
2040 not 2012
@@Freebird240 Ah yes. 2040. I remember it well.
The kings point of view.
“Lawless vermin came from Aram, they seized, plundered and defiled our women, we made ash of them”
the peoples point of view
“aaaaaarrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh”
Followed by “they are coming to rescue us”
Followed by “Aaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhh”[croak].
35:00
👍👍
All people died. It's just that they left fewer children surviving to have children themselves..
Yes, almost everyone dies. Only few ppl survive to start the world over again.
26:39 "the intergovernmental panel on climate change which um those are the guys that every year they say we're all going to die uh because of climate change and weather and all of that " - no, the IPCC does not do that. Love the work of Dr. Cline, but his off-hand (perhaps intended to be humorous) remark here really misses the mark. First off, the IPCC reports are spaced out over several years. Secondly, the IPCC does not say "we're all going to die". Indeed, many climate specialists lament at how conservative the IPCC is, claiming the IPCC understates the severity of the problem.
It was meant as a joke.
@@digkabri not a funny one, considering the number of people who like to pretend climate change is a hoax.
The fall of the Roman Empire and the Bronze Age collapse didn’t influence Asian or American civilisations, they were fairly local as well. So pretending they were far more important on a global scale is not right.
I am not "pretending they were far more important on a global scale." Why don't you read the book and then we can discuss what I am or am not claiming, once you know what I actually say?
What are you talking about? He never even mention other areas than the eastern Mediterranean!