@@TheDistortionPrinciple Crates get hate for no reason other than they are cheap. You push a GX15 into a 12" or 412 cab and that thing will sound great.
I prefer low maintenance & simplicity; which is why I select solid state amps. They've definitely come a long way and sound excellent. I love my Orange Super Crush.
I gotta say, I think people are really making this more complicated than it is. Right off the top, why are we talking about SS and modelling like they are different? Modelling IS solid state. The difference is analog solid state vs digital solid state. In this light, it is clear that there are VERY few pure analog SS amps to consider, and the ones that do exist are all older, no longer manufactured ala VH-140C/G130-c, Supreme 160, Bluestripe Bandits, etc or they are very special purpose like the JC120 or SS 400 Renown. And I mean, this makes sense, since SS amps have pretty much always just tried to sound like tubes, and sounding like tubes is what modellers do, the whole reason they exist. About 1996 it became clear that analog SS wasnt going to get there, but using the same SS circuitry with DSPs to emulate tubes via modelling algorithms just might. It then took another ~20 years for them to get there, but they did get there. In that light, the question for a player in 2024 is really only between tubes and modelling, and it isn't which is better, as tubes are always going to be the best version of tubes, but rather - where are the compromises, and are they worth it to you to NOT have to deal with everything that comes with tubes? For me, this is a no-brainer. Modellers sound so good now, they replace the tube preamps and almost all analog FX, usually in one box. They work best with clean power, which is done better by SS amps. They can be IR'ed and run direct to FOH, while simultaneously running non-IR'ed into a clean power amp and guitar speakers, and if you run a high quality, ridiculously over-specced SS power amp, you can even get the punch and vibe of tube power onstage/in the room. You have to run high wattage amps at like 10% of their capacity, so it kinda feels like a waste, but it does an excellent job of replicating tube power. When you consider everything that isnt sound/feel, like size, wight, expense to maintain, ease of use, particularly in interfacing with other gear for recording and live sound reinforcement, versatility, likelyhood it will electrocute you, etc, and then compare it to what you do gain in tone/feel with tubes... The only question for a player in 2024 who ISNT already a well known/paid celebrity, is which modeller should I get, which then opens a whole other can of worms. TLDR - for pure tone/feel, tubes still rule. For practical playing in 2024, Modellers are the only option that makes sense for 99% of everyone.
I would counter modellers and solid state are different. Solid state is still using components to create the sound. Modellers are using code to create and entire rig IMO. You get the amp the cab the pedal the room and so on. Some people don't like menus and editing screens . Another reason to differentiate between the two. Thanks for the thoughts and conversation as well. Lots of stuff to think about in your comment
Another thing to consider is if the modeler company later on going to hit you with a subscription to use their algorithms? Are they going to have planned obsolescence like phones? Can you repair them like a tube Amp? Tubes are rhe way to go. You can get a 5 watt Amp for the house. They're great.
@@smelltheglove2038 If you are someone that is into tinkering or fixing things, or use someone to do that for tube amps, it's not very hard to jailbreak or custom firmware a modeler to not have to use that subscription if that's where it heads. It's been done with regular computer software for decades, and at this point is fairly easy and straightforward.
@@smelltheglove2038 Planned obsolescence is largely overblown. There is a reason that certain things today can't operate on systems from years ago. The old machines cannot handle the workload of modern software. That doesn't mean that the old stuff is useless, it just means you can't always update to the latest and greatest. Seeing as we're talking in the context of tube amps here, and that is very old technology, it shouldn't be an issue to continue using something you buy now well into the future when it comes to modelers so long as you aren't always updating to the latest software.
@@phillippitts6294 I used that same setup for a few band practices back in the day. The first time the band laughed but then it was actually loud enough. Barely but loud enough
Used tube and solid state amps over the years depending on the music i was playing. Each one is a different flavor from the next. I always encourage people to try them all before settling on just 1. These days its all about the cleanest signal without the 60 cycle hum, RF and UF signals. Recently i was using pre amp pedals into a amp pedal which sounded great at loud volumes. For lower volumes the Peavey Bandit 65 with a dirt pedal into the front is my new go to for doom or death metal. I havent tried any of the modelers as of yet. Looking forward to trying out a HX stomp. The one you used sounded so good in the recordings you did.
Yea they all.can sound amazing. I'm gonna get another helix. I only sold mine because I want the bigger one and they give you a model t in the stomp less than 700 for a 5k amp 😂
I have had a Digitech RP50 for about 22 years. It was useable but I moved on. Then I was given a Peavey Bandit 65 Solo Series. Holy Cow. It came alive. All I ever needed was a damn good amp.
@@Fotosaurus56 You likely just experienced having a better speaker. The Bandit has a nice speaker in it but as a devout Peavey cultist, the bandit is not very unique in its circuit design aside from being a little more low mid focused. It is essentially a fender/marshall clone for less money. I have a few 412s that are pretty nice and any cheap or spendy amp sounds great with them because the speakers aren't ass.
Tube power amps with ss preamp is where the good good is, but no one makes them that way anymore. Most (narly all) circuits with a tube preamp do not run hot enough to actually utilize the preamp tube(s) as anything more than a LED to complete the circuit.
@@lordgoobles It's really just a gimmick, as I stated in another comment, the circuit does not usually run hot enough for the preamp amp tube to do anything aside from complete the circuit. It is essentially a removable LED.
Good video. I've been looking into building a bass rig and have noticed solid state seems to be more popular. Which I found weird, coming from the guitar world. I have had three back surgeries so even though I don't need to move an amp often, weight still comes into the equation when I am looking to buy gear.
My grab and go amp for small clubs is a Tech 21 Trademark 60 loaded with a Neo Creamback. It weighs 35 pounds. It is picky about what overdrive I use to push a dirty tone. If I’m playing outside I prefer a tube amp. I play lead in a hard rock band so I can get away with an open back, though I prefer a sealed cabinet. On to modelers, full amp models work best into solid state. Full amp models generally do not work well with tube amplifiers. I am not a fan of FRFR. Their job is to recreate the sound of a microphone pointed at a speaker which is not the same as an amp pushing air in a room. If you need more tones than your amp can provide, a modeler is a great supplement. A Line 6 has an excellent model of a Friedman BE100 which works very well with my Mesa Mark 5, for example. I suggest working within the confines of your preferred cabinet in this situation, unless you don’t mind the extra complexity to get what you need on stage and over the house system. Leon Todd did a great video demonstrating the pitfalls of sending FOH different cabinet IRs as they will change where you sit in the mix. While I lean towards tubes driving a transformer driving a cabinet, don’t knock an amply-powered solid state power amp with a modeler. While I believe there can be a difference in touch with solid state being more immediate across the spectrum (please correct me if I’m wrong), there’s no good reason to think your cab can’t move as much air with a solid state amp. The Carvin FET-1000 was a pretty popular amp in the mid-‘80s. I seem to recall a guy named Eddie using solid state power amps to drive his cabinets as well. If I’m correct about the difference in touch then solid state would actually be a sensible choice based on the way he ran his amp.
I would tend to agree. I always found solid state to be a bit more immediate too which really worked well for the style of players who are well known for using them. I can't remember the name of the tech 21 we used back in the day but used to run a line 6 pod into a tech 21 to jam with a drummer and it worked very well in the early 2000s
If I was going to buy the new tonex mini pedal , would it sound better straight thru the front or thru the effects loop ? I saw the guitar player from the Haunted do it the other day. I forgot his name Ola or something.
I have no idea how to relate to someone who aspires to only own a single amplifier. The only thing crazier than that to me, is someone who aspires to only own a single amplifier and wants to achieve their sound without pedals.
I would like to see a product, like a tube stage meant to go before a modeler to give it warmth, or even after if that works better. I dont mean a power amp, I like my monitors. Love my Mark V 25, but working digitally is soooo easy. You dont have to move a single patch cable if you dont feel like it.
I’m very much an analog guy, so I’ve just never really connected with modelers. It’s been enough of a switch for me to be using a DAW instead of tape😂. That being said, especially for the gigging guitarist who prefers analog hardware like myself I have ditched most of my tube amps and use solid state or hybrid amps with a lot of analog JFET preamps for getting the different tones that I want. Almost everything especially playing out is with an Orange Super Crush running only ever on the clean channel. I would love to see larger format hybrid amps become a thing to get that tube tone with less weight and more durability.
I prefer modelers. Light weight. Lots of options. Consistent sound. And work well for jamming at home or smaller gigs. Plus one device gets my death metal sound, my thrash sound, and my NWOBHM sound. Edit: if i had physical space and coud play loud I'd have an Engl.
Thanks Mark! Ok. So I can buy one of these gizmos and use it as a preamp in the FX loop of my amp? I won't need a computer? I am an old fart and know next to nothing about these modelers and computers.
I've been playing 61 yrs. Ive got 4 tube amps but the one i love is the Fender Twin Reverb Tone Master. Gerat amp and ive had Black Face Twin in the 60s. Tone Master amps work. Tube amps are expensive to maintain, Heavy! and can screw up at will even thou its rare it'll be at your gig when it does. Na ..
My ampeg bloody hates fuzz pedals, an overdrive is the only thing I feel it will work with but it does have a ripping gain tone without anything really, Bower was correct but I was kinda looking forward to experimenting with pedals, I could stick a head on top of it n slave it cause its a combo n has all they options at the back, what do you think Marky boy you funky son of a bitch 😂?
HUGE disagree about needing multiple amps to play different styles of music. I have a Peavey VTM120 (Jose modded JCM800 clone) and I can go from 1950s rock and roll to modern death metal with just a few knob turns and utilizing my guitar volume knob. I can do the same with my 6505. People just don't like getting to know their gear. Also, all gear can fail at any moment, at least with tube amps and full analog amps you can work on them fairly easily. Digital rig fails and you have a doorstop. I use vsts/modelers at home, btw. Not a purist but FOH can eat my ass, I'm using my full stack.
@@TheDistortionPrinciple a Matamp is just a Plexi clone with a bit more bottom end and high fizz and the AOR is just a low end heavy JCM800. You can get similar enough tones from a 6505 no problem. Worst case, you have to use an outboard EQ to get there.
None of them are the "best" anyone who says one is best, just doesn't understand. Are you in a performing band? How close are your neighbors? Do you just want to play through head phones? Are you computer savvy? It really depends on your personal situation.
Another cool video bro. Thanks for the love for solid state amps. The Peavey Supreme 160 sounds pretty damn good to me.
Those are so damn good
The entire genre of death metal was basically built with a Peavey Bandit 112 combo.
@riffsnoleads bandits are so damn good. Also for funsies go try a crate gx15
@@TheDistortionPrinciple Crates get hate for no reason other than they are cheap. You push a GX15 into a 12" or 412 cab and that thing will sound great.
I prefer low maintenance & simplicity; which is why I select solid state amps. They've definitely come a long way and sound excellent. I love my Orange Super Crush.
@@SuperSpacebum great amps
today is a good day and a cool video I was wondering about modelers too and how they work.
hey cheers!
Right on
I gotta say, I think people are really making this more complicated than it is.
Right off the top, why are we talking about SS and modelling like they are different? Modelling IS solid state. The difference is analog solid state vs digital solid state. In this light, it is clear that there are VERY few pure analog SS amps to consider, and the ones that do exist are all older, no longer manufactured ala VH-140C/G130-c, Supreme 160, Bluestripe Bandits, etc or they are very special purpose like the JC120 or SS 400 Renown.
And I mean, this makes sense, since SS amps have pretty much always just tried to sound like tubes, and sounding like tubes is what modellers do, the whole reason they exist. About 1996 it became clear that analog SS wasnt going to get there, but using the same SS circuitry with DSPs to emulate tubes via modelling algorithms just might. It then took another ~20 years for them to get there, but they did get there.
In that light, the question for a player in 2024 is really only between tubes and modelling, and it isn't which is better, as tubes are always going to be the best version of tubes, but rather - where are the compromises, and are they worth it to you to NOT have to deal with everything that comes with tubes?
For me, this is a no-brainer. Modellers sound so good now, they replace the tube preamps and almost all analog FX, usually in one box. They work best with clean power, which is done better by SS amps. They can be IR'ed and run direct to FOH, while simultaneously running non-IR'ed into a clean power amp and guitar speakers, and if you run a high quality, ridiculously over-specced SS power amp, you can even get the punch and vibe of tube power onstage/in the room. You have to run high wattage amps at like 10% of their capacity, so it kinda feels like a waste, but it does an excellent job of replicating tube power.
When you consider everything that isnt sound/feel, like size, wight, expense to maintain, ease of use, particularly in interfacing with other gear for recording and live sound reinforcement, versatility, likelyhood it will electrocute you, etc, and then compare it to what you do gain in tone/feel with tubes... The only question for a player in 2024 who ISNT already a well known/paid celebrity, is which modeller should I get, which then opens a whole other can of worms.
TLDR - for pure tone/feel, tubes still rule. For practical playing in 2024, Modellers are the only option that makes sense for 99% of everyone.
I would counter modellers and solid state are different. Solid state is still using components to create the sound. Modellers are using code to create and entire rig IMO. You get the amp the cab the pedal the room and so on. Some people don't like menus and editing screens . Another reason to differentiate between the two. Thanks for the thoughts and conversation as well. Lots of stuff to think about in your comment
Another thing to consider is if the modeler company later on going to hit you with a subscription to use their algorithms? Are they going to have planned obsolescence like phones? Can you repair them like a tube Amp? Tubes are rhe way to go. You can get a 5 watt Amp for the house. They're great.
@@smelltheglove2038 If you are someone that is into tinkering or fixing things, or use someone to do that for tube amps, it's not very hard to jailbreak or custom firmware a modeler to not have to use that subscription if that's where it heads. It's been done with regular computer software for decades, and at this point is fairly easy and straightforward.
@@billweir1745 that's fine. What about planned obsolescence? It's all irrelevant to me anyway. I'd never get one.
@@smelltheglove2038 Planned obsolescence is largely overblown. There is a reason that certain things today can't operate on systems from years ago. The old machines cannot handle the workload of modern software. That doesn't mean that the old stuff is useless, it just means you can't always update to the latest and greatest. Seeing as we're talking in the context of tube amps here, and that is very old technology, it shouldn't be an issue to continue using something you buy now well into the future when it comes to modelers so long as you aren't always updating to the latest software.
Class D solid state amps have come a long way. They can have a ton of power and weigh less than 10 lbs.
@@MikeHunt-n4u yep things are getting so good now
Class D amps clip in a pleasant way, which is why I believe they can compete better with tube amps as opposed to classic analog solid state amps.
I run a micro dark terror into a 4x12.
@@phillippitts6294 I used that same setup for a few band practices back in the day. The first time the band laughed but then it was actually loud enough. Barely but loud enough
@ I’ve been thinking about a evh lunchbox head or the 15 watt iconic combo
Used tube and solid state amps over the years depending on the music i was playing. Each one is a different flavor from the next. I always encourage people to try them all before settling on just 1.
These days its all about the cleanest signal without the 60 cycle hum, RF and UF signals.
Recently i was using pre amp pedals into a amp pedal which sounded great at loud volumes. For lower volumes the Peavey Bandit 65 with a dirt pedal into the front is my new go to for doom or death metal. I havent tried any of the modelers as of yet. Looking forward to trying out a HX stomp. The one you used sounded so good in the recordings you did.
Yea they all.can sound amazing. I'm gonna get another helix. I only sold mine because I want the bigger one and they give you a model t in the stomp less than 700 for a 5k amp 😂
I have had a Digitech RP50 for about 22 years. It was useable but I moved on. Then I was given a Peavey Bandit 65 Solo Series. Holy Cow. It came alive. All I ever needed was a damn good amp.
@Fotosaurus56 I remember I had the RP1000 and got a crate gx15 tiny practice amp and mic'd it up as a joke but joke was on me it sounded good lol
@@Fotosaurus56 You likely just experienced having a better speaker. The Bandit has a nice speaker in it but as a devout Peavey cultist, the bandit is not very unique in its circuit design aside from being a little more low mid focused. It is essentially a fender/marshall clone for less money.
I have a few 412s that are pretty nice and any cheap or spendy amp sounds great with them because the speakers aren't ass.
I want to see more hybrids. Like preamp tubes with solid state power. I would love to see a boss katana with 1-3 preamp tubes.
@@AlexanderXtcSlayin man that sounds like it could be a killer amp for real. The valvestate is a really good sounding hybrid
The Orange Micro and Joyo amps do this; I really like my Micro Dark. But I agree, more companies should do it
Tube power amps with ss preamp is where the good good is, but no one makes them that way anymore. Most (narly all) circuits with a tube preamp do not run hot enough to actually utilize the preamp tube(s) as anything more than a LED to complete the circuit.
@@lordgoobles It's really just a gimmick, as I stated in another comment, the circuit does not usually run hot enough for the preamp amp tube to do anything aside from complete the circuit. It is essentially a removable LED.
@@riffsnoleadsThose vox valvestates were really something different. Literally just an AC30
Mains voltage may vary so that could explain why you feel a difference day to day with tube amps.
True! Didn't think of that. Thanks!
Everything breaks, that's why I'm so busy fixing all of the above
Everyone wants to pry my tube amps away from me . Number one rule, never sell your tube amps . Love those Old Harmonica little tube amps
Tubes are great
Good video. I've been looking into building a bass rig and have noticed solid state seems to be more popular. Which I found weird, coming from the guitar world. I have had three back surgeries so even though I don't need to move an amp often, weight still comes into the equation when I am looking to buy gear.
Solid state will definitely help with your back. Alot of great bass tones in the past were just a sans amp even
@@mykneeshurt8393 I have the Mesa Subway D800+. It’s like 7 lbs, 800 watts at 4 ohms. Very articulate amp.
My grab and go amp for small clubs is a Tech 21 Trademark 60 loaded with a Neo Creamback. It weighs 35 pounds. It is picky about what overdrive I use to push a dirty tone. If I’m playing outside I prefer a tube amp. I play lead in a hard rock band so I can get away with an open back, though I prefer a sealed cabinet.
On to modelers, full amp models work best into solid state. Full amp models generally do not work well with tube amplifiers.
I am not a fan of FRFR. Their job is to recreate the sound of a microphone pointed at a speaker which is not the same as an amp pushing air in a room.
If you need more tones than your amp can provide, a modeler is a great supplement. A Line 6 has an excellent model of a Friedman BE100 which works very well with my Mesa Mark 5, for example. I suggest working within the confines of your preferred cabinet in this situation, unless you don’t mind the extra complexity to get what you need on stage and over the house system. Leon Todd did a great video demonstrating the pitfalls of sending FOH different cabinet IRs as they will change where you sit in the mix.
While I lean towards tubes driving a transformer driving a cabinet, don’t knock an amply-powered solid state power amp with a modeler. While I believe there can be a difference in touch with solid state being more immediate across the spectrum (please correct me if I’m wrong), there’s no good reason to think your cab can’t move as much air with a solid state amp. The Carvin FET-1000 was a pretty popular amp in the mid-‘80s. I seem to recall a guy named Eddie using solid state power amps to drive his cabinets as well. If I’m correct about the difference in touch then solid state would actually be a sensible choice based on the way he ran his amp.
I would tend to agree. I always found solid state to be a bit more immediate too which really worked well for the style of players who are well known for using them. I can't remember the name of the tech 21 we used back in the day but used to run a line 6 pod into a tech 21 to jam with a drummer and it worked very well in the early 2000s
If I was going to buy the new tonex mini pedal , would it sound better straight thru the front or thru the effects loop ? I saw the guitar player from the Haunted do it the other day. I forgot his name Ola or something.
I'd say loop
I have no idea how to relate to someone who aspires to only own a single amplifier. The only thing crazier than that to me, is someone who aspires to only own a single amplifier and wants to achieve their sound without pedals.
@@StephGV2 all the amps! And all the gain!
I play a ss head through a Mesa cab. Very reliable.
Can't complain about that at all
I would like to see a product, like a tube stage meant to go before a modeler to give it warmth, or even after if that works better. I dont mean a power amp, I like my monitors. Love my Mark V 25, but working digitally is soooo easy. You dont have to move a single patch cable if you dont feel like it.
@@masterofreality230 yes! So easy to use and some preamp tube stage thing would be cool
@@TheDistortionPrinciple Right, the reason I mentioned after the modeller is that I know a lot of tone shaping can work a lot better post gain.
@masterofreality230 good point
I’m very much an analog guy, so I’ve just never really connected with modelers. It’s been enough of a switch for me to be using a DAW instead of tape😂. That being said, especially for the gigging guitarist who prefers analog hardware like myself I have ditched most of my tube amps and use solid state or hybrid amps with a lot of analog JFET preamps for getting the different tones that I want. Almost everything especially playing out is with an Orange Super Crush running only ever on the clean channel. I would love to see larger format hybrid amps become a thing to get that tube tone with less weight and more durability.
@@AJ-wh1tw I really enjoy my master effects Martyr pedal. Valvestate in a box. I'd probably got that into a power amp if I ever played again
Tube pre amp into solid state power amp, all day, every day.
Great combo
I prefer modelers. Light weight. Lots of options. Consistent sound. And work well for jamming at home or smaller gigs. Plus one device gets my death metal sound, my thrash sound, and my NWOBHM sound.
Edit: if i had physical space and coud play loud I'd have an Engl.
Yep that's where they win. I like multiple tones and those get it for you
Thanks Mark! Ok. So I can buy one of these gizmos and use it as a preamp in the FX loop of my amp? I won't need a computer? I am an old fart and know next to nothing about these modelers and computers.
For deep editing a computer is easier but you could still do it all from the unti front
@@TheDistortionPrincipleCool Thanks! I will finally have to start looking into this.
@danielkosmider8715 if you take the leap I can walk you through it
I've been playing 61 yrs. Ive got 4 tube amps but the one i love is the Fender Twin Reverb Tone Master. Gerat amp and ive had Black Face Twin in the 60s.
Tone Master amps work. Tube amps are expensive to maintain, Heavy! and can screw up at will even thou its rare it'll be at your gig when it does. Na ..
Good point
My ampeg bloody hates fuzz pedals, an overdrive is the only thing I feel it will work with but it does have a ripping gain tone without anything really, Bower was correct but I was kinda looking forward to experimenting with pedals, I could stick a head on top of it n slave it cause its a combo n has all they options at the back, what do you think Marky boy you funky son of a bitch 😂?
@@deathmetalmadness4642 snag one of the cheap aor amps that are out there now. Takes pedals better than so many other amps
@TheDistortionPrinciple Good call, I'm always looking
HUGE disagree about needing multiple amps to play different styles of music. I have a Peavey VTM120 (Jose modded JCM800 clone) and I can go from 1950s rock and roll to modern death metal with just a few knob turns and utilizing my guitar volume knob. I can do the same with my 6505. People just don't like getting to know their gear.
Also, all gear can fail at any moment, at least with tube amps and full analog amps you can work on them fairly easily. Digital rig fails and you have a doorstop.
I use vsts/modelers at home, btw. Not a purist but FOH can eat my ass, I'm using my full stack.
@@riffsnoleads that's fine but... I cannot get say a matamp or aor from a 6505
@@riffsnoleads btw those vtm amps are so good
@@TheDistortionPrinciple a Matamp is just a Plexi clone with a bit more bottom end and high fizz and the AOR is just a low end heavy JCM800. You can get similar enough tones from a 6505 no problem.
Worst case, you have to use an outboard EQ to get there.
None of them are the "best" anyone who says one is best, just doesn't understand. Are you in a performing band? How close are your neighbors? Do you just want to play through head phones? Are you computer savvy? It really depends on your personal situation.
Pretty much the same point I made in the intro.
Amp1 mercury edition the greatest all analog solid-state nanotube hybrid ever made ! Its fender bassman plexi-esque style circuit ! Plus jcm800
I've been curious about the amp1 for awhile
Quilter labs !