He shouldnt have said that but soldier is busted and keeps getting buffed every other patch. 0 cd mobility, 120dmg rocket on a short cd, and can heal himself to full as a dps? his ult isnt gonna team kill but if you're halfway intelligent you can consistently get 2 kills for free. Then they removed his recoil and allowed him to do dmg from ashe range for no reason. Whenever a dps is getting rolled, they swap to soldier.
@n4ttyyy I agree with you, I honestly want Soldier to get nerfed or just remove that healing station to begin with and just give him a heal for himself or just remove the heal all together. Whenever someone starts losing, they switch to Soldier and just win automatically or lose terribly. Honestly, if they nerf him(which I hope they do) that'll give smurfs who use him a good slice of karma for ruining our ranked games. The same can go for genji, simply because he's hard to deal with and annoying, even when you have beam characters. And if you say Genji is hard to play, that's a lie. I'll give you a bone because his ult requires close range and is hard to hit but all of his other things are annoying and just tedious, especially his hitbox and mobility.
This video is massive support main cope. Kiriko is so busted and oppressive. She is actually meta defining. Overwatch is a game where we are all pawns in a larger support war between ana and kiriko.
Bro really say that healing station that only heal is better than suzu , Ana nade , immortality field, healing burst , life grip , healing pylons, kiri tp , rez , sleep dart , i don’t like heal station but plz don’t spill those nonsense
Pretty sure he just means in terms of numbers healing station heals for 200hp in 5sec and it can heal everyone. bap healing burst does have a way wider area true but that only heals for 40-80 and I agree suzu is by far the best ability but not for it's healing same with immoirtality field. those just disrupt the flow of the dual and that's just unhealthy but if anything mei has the strongest healing ability! 200hp and you cant even hit her!!
@@Loller271 i mean technically true but looking at just the numbers without context is super braindead. soldiers station for example rarely heals more than 200hp, most of the time used on just the soldier and maybe one other tm8. the healing is slow compared to actual supports and you have to stay in one spot + a 15 second cooldown, which is not even comparable to supports heroes' cooldowns. And Mei's ice block is even worse imo cuz you cant move, cant shoot back at the enemy and they can just preaim all their abilities on ur head, so you're forced to use ice block in defensive positions where the invulnerability adds nothing and it just reduces down to a slow 200hp heal. I don't have a problem with both these abilities being bad, cuz they belong to dps heroes who shouldn't have strong heals imo, but the same somehow doesnt apply to support who on top of great healing/support also have insane dps output. feel like thats where the problem with a lot of broken heroes like kiriko is, the ability to do everything well (heal/damage/mobility/survivability) instead of specialising in one or two areas, like lucio who is mobile and really hard to kill, but doesnt really do much damage or healing, or soldier even who has great damage and mobility, but bad heals and still just a squishy with no shield/protection ability to help him stay alive.
As a support main, I am tired of these arguments. Just admit it, the majority of our supports are overtuned. And I know some of the winrates seems fair, but they are mostly used to compare the supports to each other. Therefore, if we nerf most of the support role as a whole, it’s not like Kiriko would fall to a 30% winrate.
It’s insane how upset support mains get and the mental gymnastics they perform to prove otherwise when you simply tell them their role is overtuned lol
Also, 49% is generally considered balanced - AND that includes (depending on list) kiri vs kiri matchups. Also includes people who cannot play the character trying to play her. She requires slightly more skill to hit shots with than most other characters. Of course she has a low winrate total, low level players suck with her.
Bro really tried to compare reaper wraith form to Suzu 💀. Reaper can’t attack while in wraith, he can’t protect his teammates with wraith, unlike Suzu. If a Dva bomb is coming at a team 1 Suzu can invalidate the Ult, best reaper could do is wraith and try to 1v5 💀
The fact that Reinhardt's charge can be hooked and interrupted in many ways, but not Mauga's is embarrassing. The fully-armored, jet-propelled charge < half-naked running dude.
Reinhardt's charge had the potential to one shot all squishys except for bastion and maybe torb as long as he grabs you, Rein can also boop people off the map easily, meanwhile Mauga's overrun can't kill heroes who get hit and have mobility and can only boop people off the map if they are close to the edge, Rein charge is more lethal while Mauga's is more consistent, but it is silly a half-naked dud is unstoppable while jet boosted armor covered rein isn't.
STOP MENTIONING WINRATE! it means nothing! the highest winrate in a perfect world is 50% since the game is designed for u to lose 50% of your games on average low skill tier kirikos will pretty much ONLY spam ofuda and tank the average winrate of the player base winrate talk in these arguments is also completely ignoring the rest of the 9 ppl in the lobby show me real claims, like practical dps, and stop getting distracted with winrate talk and insulting ppl without actually giving real counter arguments to what theyre saying i agree that kirikos practical dps is way lower than the theoretical, ur stupid to not agree, but i do not agree that some dude yapping about "anyone remotely decent knows kunai is busted" has anything to do with the actual argument. just look at the facts and look at the arguments being made.
i don't want to be too mean, but it feels like he's grifting, trying to pretend a perfectly normal hero is as broken as his main, so his main doesn't get nerfed to the ground, he's got a job playing the game after all, i imagine not many people would watch you if you were hard stuck plat/dimond once they nerf your OP main, so he's got to grift and pretend to keep his main relevant for as long as he can....
It kinda is by the numbers/in a vacuum. People talk about how broken Bap shift is (10hps * 4 seconds + 40 or 80 burst) = 80 to 120 healing but Soldier bio field is (40hps * 5 seconds) = always 200 healing. It obviously isn't as impactful overall as nade or something.
Kiriko's kunais have a bigger hitbox than most projectiles while herself being really small so she can hit you easily while other should aim at your legs to hit you consistently
@@thomasfairfax4956 Low ranked players can make Mauga look bad. Let's not get ahead of ourselves trying to be snarky. It's easier and faster to use easier supports. Which is why even though Mercy isn't the best support atm, she has the best WR out of them - followed by Moira, another support that isn't the best/meta.
@@RemedieX Mercy goes from a 47% win rate in bronze to 52% in GM. She's far better in higher ranks precisely because she isn't easy to play. Also Mercy is nowhere near highest win rate support, neither is Moira.
He talks about metro shooting helix rocket at feet. You can tell he has zero clue how small that hitbox is and talks about kiriko as if the hit box on kunai is massive and the problem with her is that she has everything a getting out of jail free card, Susu, and a 3x, and still has very good healing
I’m not a Metro fan in the slightest but he’s 100% right in that clip - kiriko can jump someone, begin to lose horribly, suzu herself for a second change at the 1v1, lose again, and tp away safely… that is not ok. And implying soldiers “0 second mobility” is just sad when you can literally go though walls come on bro
The reason Kiriko's damage is NOT ok is because the rest of her kit is broken. Zenyatta is allowed to do a lot of damage, even though hes a support; because of the other issues in his kit. Zen can kill you quickly like kiriko yes, but this is because zen has a balanced hitbox, and doesn't' have a 7 second TELEPORT. You are right to a degree, that kirikos dps, in a vacuum, is not that crazy for a support. However, when you pair it with the constant power creep with mobility and hitboxes, it feels like way too much.
Yeah but her damage is contingent on headshots that generally require you to either be close up to hit consistently or you have to predict movement from far range. I mean in lower lobbies where people don't move it's easy but then you go to higher lobbies and you're not destroying people the way you might see in some clips. Not to mention you cannot reliably hit flying heroes, heroes with weird head hitboxes, or really burst down shields. Zen on the other hand has a projectile with a smaller radius but it travels faster so it's easier to hit things farther away. It does strong damage with body shots or otherwise. You can use it to burst down shields extremely effectively. It's simply a better weapon. It's a more extreme form of damage compared to Kiriko's kunai, especially with discord orb. Zen actually has been performing better than Kiriko at pretty much all ranks for awhile now too. I think from a game design perspective there's a good argument that Zen is a better designed hero than Kiriko (and I love him as I mained him in OW1) but I think this isn't a good comparison to use and it doesn't really prove your point that Kiriko is op. I mean if you watch this video it should be clear that the problems with Kiriko have nothing to do with her being overpowered and everything to do with her design as a character.
@@jamesburnett3594 the question is WHY does kiriko need to 2 shot any squishy in the game? She has everything in her kit: wall climb, telport through walls, cleanse aoe heal.... like zen sits on the ground and kicks, but still takes the same amount of headshots to kill a squishy. It may not be OP at the highest level, but it's extremely annoying to play against.
@@carterhicks7441 Zen also has this ability called discord orb that effectively removes a giant portion of the hp bar from whoever he targets for free. When I play tank this is infinitely more annoying than anything Kiriko does. The winrates and stats speak for themselves. If you hate playing against Kiriko ask yourself whether you're even trying. You can't just disrespect her and expect to kill her for free. You have to track her CDs, bait them or, and not just mindlessly burn your own before she uses suzu. You have to be conscious of your movement as to not get 2 tapped for free. If you do these things she is pretty hard to play effectively. There's a reason she doesn't see much play in pro play and has bad stats. But many people have been taught by social media to learn incorrect things about her. It's pretty telling most people liked her until Illari came out and now everyone thinks she's busted because they watched a few videos.
Even if it was hitbox jank, you would never be fighting a tracer whose consistently in that position for her head to be blocked. So the argument is asinine. And Kiriko has the same problem against other people. Her arm blocks more headshots than Tracer does and it is more consistent.
It's also a DoT so she might just fail to kill a target because they got *Lucio healing* which comes in handy knowing if you're playing Moira because that means if she doesn't have the nade or sleeps you after the 3rd shot,she physically can't kill you if she's solo even at max fire speed which is slower than the entire DPS category iirc. Ana's primary isn't as great as one would think outside the no fall off Hitscan.
@@wever4873 yeah but kiri has a movement passive, potential to 2 tap most of the roster, a free escape in tp, one of the smallest hit boxes in the game ,and suzu which counters Ana nade and 90% of the other abilities in the game
In my opinion suzu just can do too much. It wouldn’t be bad if it was a single target thing but the fact it can give the whole team immortality, heal, and cleanse whatever negative effect they have is just crazy.
I know it was my fault for not paying attention to cooldowns, but I threw a pulse bomb at the whole enemy team while they were in grav and kiriko suzu'd all of them, it felt so bad.
Losing feels bad marveler, that kiriko got to feel great. maybe they made a good play by holding it intentionally. Good on you for acknowledging not paying attention. Sometimes you forget in the excitement of a fat grav
The problem isn't just 1v1ing dps characters like zen can do that it's the fact she can 1v1 you and can use suzu to become invulnerable and heal herself and even if she starts losing that 1v1 with suzu she just teleports away it's low risk high reward 😢
Most of the Support Roster can 1v1 the DPS roster, so that isn't a big factor here. The ONLy thing that actually counts toward making her busted, is the suzu. And even then, the invul lasts for half a second, and the 80 healing isn't much if a DPS with good accuracy is blasting her.
@@laughing5752 Its more like throwing half the time, Zen 1v1ing a dps, they will die most the time if the dps player is good, ana same thing, even bap, its heroes like kiri and illari that have just broken this balance and its very annoying. They do it on purpose too. We know you can make heros that have balanced draw backs, we have zen, ana, lucio but they choose to make these blatantly overpowered supports. If you can heal yourself, you have drawback to your damage. Its that simple.
"KiRiKo HaD To uSe CoOlDoWnS!!!!11!!!!1" lmao sure is fun to go to the enmy backline, hide in a corner, press m1 twice, kill a squishy use suzu for instant 80/110 hp and get out unscaved. not to mention she has a hitbox the size of an ant (shooting her legs is better than aiming for the head in most cases) and she gets crutches for everything, she can make more mistakes than any other hero and get away (im a support main and this is bullshit)
I can punish Moira often, she has no burst damage and her mobility is way more predictable. Kiri can also wall climb, which is super powerful and has no cooldown.
I hate kiri, i think her whole kit is rediculous and her hitbox needs some SERIOUS nerfs, i play in top500 and still see that stuoid character out dueling widow by spamming kunai's head height and spam crouch strafing, it is rediculous, the fact people defend her as a character is stupid, i miss ow1 when they didn't have all the immortality/super high dps supports...
@@IsMyNameUnique moira fade and kiri swift step are not on the same level because you can travel much further with swift step, you can also make more mistakes with kiri since she has suzu and moira only has orb. edit: to elaborate on the suzu vs orb comparison, moiras orb allows her to heal off forms of continuous damage like soldiers pulse rifle but does nothing to counter burst damage like almost any headshot, or high damage projectile like junkrat, pharah, mei etc. Suzu lets you avoid both, albeit for a shorter time but also cleanses any negative effects from cooldowns the enemy expends to try and kill you like hinder/hack to disable swift step, anti to disable self healing or allows you to dodge stuns like doom punch, hog hook, rein pin, ana sleep etc. none of which moira orb can do.
Mccree's shot has insane fall off while kiriko's has none at all. Being able to remove all status effects + invincibility by just pressing a button, while being able to protect the whole team instead of zaryas bubble which is single target. We are really defending teleporting throught walls now, by just pressing a button? My god Kiriko mains have room temperature IQ.
At longer range mcree takes 7 shots to kill someone which is bigger than his revolver's capacity, meanwhile at the same range it takes 5 kunais and kiriko's kunai capacity is 15 (I tried this earlier) Even compare this to other supports, Brigitte for example has the shortest range as a support and has pitiful damage on her primary
These takes are horrendous I love it when people desperately try to defend a character with a toothpick hit box, 2 get out of jail free cards, one that cleanses, makes you intangible, and bursts heals 80-110 health, and the other which lets you tp through walls enabling you to play w 0 risk! Who can also 2 shot in a second! And at the same time provide massive amounts of healing! And I love when blizzard decides to nerf zen/lw and instead buff her!! Yessss I love the balance ❤
You basically summed everything up in 3 lines goodjob i dont know why he went on about how hard kunais are to hit? like dude looking at your gameplay ofc they would be hard to hit you are at sniping distance behind your entire team holding healing ofuda on ur tank and occasionally pressing E when you see his health outline go purple if you actually tried to do smth yourself and not rely on pocketing mauga or a hog the entire season and actually went on a flank a few times you'd instantly realize the crazy value she gets with little to no risk
This! Kiriko was only bad last season purely based on meta. Like Mercy mains aren't this delusional. She literally had to fight 3 hitscan (bastion/Bap/Illari) while fighting Sigma, the 1 out of like 3 characters that reliably shut her down. She was gonna be bad. And I think she should stay that bad because her kit is extremely unhealthy and needs a rework. There is no excuse for her to exist as is rn.
You didnt debunk his tracer hitbox picture. You were throwing your kuni at the ground which nullifies them. If tracer jumped that hitbox would work. The sides of the hitbox in the picture are also accurate.
@@ravenpines you can actually avoid certain projectiles as that, or at least mitgate their damage. pharah's rockets, for example. if you predict it well, you can either avoid the rockets completely or only be inflicted splash damage by jumping sideways.
Kiriko rn is a stronger version of hanzo and genji mashed into one with healing and support healing passive. She is way too overpowered and needs a big nerf. Seeing the Amount of like to dislike ratio on this vid proves that most people who watched this video agree that she is OP.
15:40 That argument is disingenuous or a terrible choice. You choice mcass regular damage vs his 1 shot ult. immortality is the problem with suzu on every character. You'd rather had .5 secs to get behind cover for cas ult, be able to not get launched in the air from bob, eat a minimum of 1 bastion ult, cleanse ana grenade, every single dps and tank can easily do over 200 damage in a second with an ult or ability (minus ball maybe) and suzu tends to negate that entirely. For the love of god don't lie to yourself in believing you think kiri would be better with baps AOE heal over suzu.
@@Therealpiemaster123 agreed, winrates mean nothing when pickrate isn't factored in with it. Ana's pickrate is one of the highest which is why her winrate is so low compared to other supports. Brig had a low pickrate but had the highest winrate by far last season.
@@Therealpiemaster123and she’s picked almost every game which means that you have a lot of kiri v kiri matches which means her win rate isn’t 49% is more like 94% with only 6% of the time a kiriko loses to team without kiriko
I think the tracer is not getting critted because her hands are basicaly on head level. I'm guessing you're hitting her hands hitbox instead of head, pretty much like Kiri used to shield her head with her hands but that's just a guess
he's too close to her, if he stepped back the kunai would be able to level out more to her head while he's next to her the projectile needs to come out from her chest area and then it levels out to their head. otherwise it just look like she's shooting kunais through her mouth.
2:10 The thing about Ana's damage is that Ana herself has no way to get out of sticky situations due to her slow movement. Her abilities are very powerful but at least somewhat possible to play around if you take her down due to her lack of evasion. Kiriko doing nearly as much as a Cassidy headshot while being able to teleport, cleanse herself and her teammates is just kinda wack. Nobody complains about Ana's damage because they can just as easily damage her back while Kiri has the tools to get away. Btw Torbjorn headshot is also a projectile and deals 105, mind you it has an arching thingamajig too. Kiri's goes straight forward and does 15 more damage.
i have literally never laughed harder in my life than when i watched this video. the title should be "im a kiri player plz dont nerf a hero thats been s since her launch".
I main lucio/zen, Kiri was S tier when she launched only because of her ultimate, in pro play she was considered a mediocre hero with an insane ultimate. The entire meta comp at the time was literally just built around which heroes could abuse kiri's ultimate the best (+sojourn because she was in her own tier of broken), then they nerfed her ult down to more reasonable levels and she has been mid ever since then. She has consistently had one of the lowest support win rates in the game every single season since season 1/2. Certain people just cry and whine so loudly that everyone thinks she's broken when she just has an incredibly annoying design. She doesn't need nerfs or buffs, she needs a complete rework of her kit and hero identity.
Also a better Suzu is immortality field. I have no idea why you didn't bring this up; please don't tell me this is another case of Support player gaslighting
1. Reaper's Wraith Form only works for him and do not provide burst healing 2. Genji's Deflect have blind spots, do not provide healing, non-projectiles ignores it, only works for him and do not cleanse anything. 3. Zarya is at the tank role, with bubbles that tank things. It is the only part of her kit. Kiriko is at support role, with high damage potential with no falloff, high burst healing, high primary fire healing, insane ultimate, insane survivability, good mobility, free get-out-of-trouble cards, small hitbox and insane utility at once.
8:27 I don't really agree with you on this part. the reason he was aiming low at the ground was because kiriko is already a hard enough target to hit, so it would be more consistent to try and body shot her and helix rocket has a somewhat small hitbox but it has a tiny explosion that does damage so what he was trying to do was not land a direct helix rocket but to guarantee some degree of damage since again, kiriko is extremely hard to hit as if and throwing a helix rocket at their feet for the explosion damage is more consistent than aiming for a headshot. Of course he played that poorly but he had the right idea to kill kiriko but of course she throws kunai and wins the fight and at any time she could have just run away and come back for round 3 while the soldier had to fight for his life agaisnt a support
he wasn't pointing out that the rocket wasn't a direct hit, his point was that it's an ability that gets a good amount of aoe damage and you don't even have to land it, but if you do you get even more damage. yet metro is complaining about kiri's simple kit being too strong meanwhile the kit he was using is so much more forgiving and effective. like kiri doesn't get the same value if she doesn't land shots, especially headshots, she requires a lot more accuracy AND has the unreliability of being projectile too. but a soldier is complaining after being able to make stupid decisions and still get some value (killing sojourn) and die after being caught with half health, it wasn't like he got rolled by a lone support
@@yikes9944 He nearly killed the kiri twice over, kiri used both suzu and tp to live, the solider (metro) equally used his entire kit to also live, metro also played his cover and peeking angles as best as he could given the situation (e.g. flank gone wrong, have to figure out a potential way to survive), the fact the kiri initiated the duel, nearly died twice but lived both times, then the sojourn comes in and only dies because the sojourn engaged poorly + didn't have the aim to secure the kill alone, and then the kiri comes back after rehealing to full (enough tim had passed for it to be support passive healing to begin with and hits a 70 hp burst to get the final kill on metro, after missing so many shots earlier (25% kunai accuracy is quite bad for that close a range + soldier's hitbox being quite large), whereas 24% accuracy as solider on kiriko is good due to her tiny as heck hitbox (aiming at feet cus its more consistent) + using the splash aoe effect to trade damage for more consistency, just shows how a kiriko can play a situation quite badly, making a LOT of mistakes, but still get value because at any moment she can just escape without any downside/risk, and can just bet on an inconsistent way to kill over and over until it happens, whilst a hero like soldier has to play almost perfectly to even stand a chance in that situation. (and then the guy has the gall to call soldier broken, and healing station the most OP ability???) + soldier's one escape option has a large risk, it only buffs movement speed not a complete tp/fast individual motion that can throw off aim heavily, it's more than likely he was dead no matter where he ran + shouldn't have to play perfectly to stand a chance against someone playing so poorly.
@@yikes9944bro wat how can u defended that one shot is so much damage her shit is way more forgiving with two abilities to help u get out of a bad situation u put urself in
Aiming at the ground is a very common strategy when dueling characters like tracer or kiriko. They have a triangle like hit box, skinny at the top and wide at the bottom. Ur correct mr commenter
Kiriko is my least favorite hero design in the game. Blizzard was just like, lets make a cute anime girl and put her in supp, the girls and nerds will love it. Start off by giving her lock on heals, then an insanely strong utility, then giving her another get out of jail card, and a silent projectile that is deceptively very easy to use, one of the best ults in the game, and on top of that a wall climb and a tiny fucking hitbox. She has way too much and people still complain that she is weak. Unreal
Trying to make an agreement for soldier being more forgivable than kiri is the stupidest thing anyone has said about ow in a long time. You are clearly bias
I don't agree with a lot said in the video, but the Suzu invulnerability take is probably the most criminal. The problem with invulnerability is that it exists in the first place, cause that means it can be used before AND after an opponent's threat. In the case of Earthshatter, having only cleanse would mean you need to be positioned well enough to not get hit to get value of the ability. Having only invulnerability would mean timing it well and hitting all important teammates quick enough. Having both removes any need of timing, positioning, etc., it's just a "get out of jail free" card for your whole team on a 14s cd.
heres the entire issue with kiriko: shes unduelable people try to duel her they lose or she escapes people complain about kiriko honestly maybe we should give swift step an extended cast time
Extended cast time or longer cooldown for sure. Suzu also shouldn't have an 80 burst heal unless it gets even lower invulnerability time. 60 burst heal at a baseline (so 90 with a cleansed effect) would be much more fair. Edit: I see why my comment was perceived differently from what I meant, so I've edited it to show what I actually meant for the balance change. Just lowering the burst heal by 20.
@@nxvaf4ir271 Invulnerability doesn't have to be the same thing as the cleansing of effects. I'm not saying for the invulnerability to be fully removed, just to be shortened if they're going to keep the burst heal at 80. Your suggestion, as the video points out, would make the ability only useful in niche situations, and would make it an overall worthless support cooldown unless the invulnerability period is close to Zarya's Bubbles.
@@kommandantkillcode I think the invulnerablity is much more frustrating for people to play against, like when you get a sick anti you're not upset that they got a zarya bubble or used a personal cleansing cd(reaper, Moira, Sombra, tracer, echo duo, zen, or mei) but for a lot of heoes it's annonying for them to just tank an ult or shot. Imo the heal is actually fine but it would be more tolerable if you could DMG through the heal and the compensation should be a lower XD it's boring to have so many characters with ultra strong high cd abilities which basically are used once in a fight. Also encouraging players to use it for the heal adds more decision making and makes it more baitable as you can force them to decide to let someone die or use it right before you want to use a cd.
Thing is, Overwatch isn't a duel game. So your point is moot. Being strong in a 1v1 doesn't win games. Besides, she's actually pretty bad at dueling. She has to use her abilities to escape.
Honestly this defense coming from a kiriko player (especially with that pfp like..) sounds very skewed in favor of kiriko. also your stats on the kiriko shots fired and hit are just wrong...? i dont know why you just compared the stats from their first fight because i watched the clip many times and kiriko fired about 20 TOTAL shots (before and after TP) and i kid you not, SHE HIT **4** of them and thats considering one of them was at point blank range before she punched. So in reality she has an accuracy of about 19-20%. i know shes a projectile character but her accuracy is NOT better than metro's in the clip. Also one more thing, she had her TP off cooldown (i dont know if its a visual bug, but considering the amount of time that passed after TP it isnt) when she came back to finish the kill which means if she did manage to mess up killing him ANOTHER time she could just TP out again which is the main problem. Its just annoying because her risk is so small in taking both of these engages. i dont really think her kunai dmg is the problem here because she is projectile and they are hard to hit but you have to be honest with yourself here, if you are a good kiriko you arent shooting them from range... you are going into their backline or right infront of them to get a better chance to hit the head and then just TP or suzu if it gets bad so it isnt AS hard to hit as you think. Her disengages are soo easy its like playing against old sombra, but unlike sombra she does more dmg at close range and can suzu entire ults on a cooldown. And all of this while having a TINY hitbox so take that into account when calculating metro's accuracy too. The kiriko got a HUGE advantage in this fight even when she misses 4/20 of her kunai's, the kiriko in the clip also seems to be not very good at hitting them so if the player was even half decent metro would be dead if she just 2-3 more body shots or 1 more headshot possibly by sheer luck which is why this is a problem, how she can do so much dmg (at close range) with little to no risk. Remember: **NO RISK** I really like your content and will continue to support it but this video is just not it.
Also i dont want to comment on your gameplay but from what i've seen you play support as a healer in alot of your gameplay even on kiriko and in this video (maybe because of mauga cuz he needs a lot of healing) and you might feel getting value from your suzu is very inconsistent and what not, but if you actually used your suzu aggressively and selfishly and went into the enemy back line or on an off angle or flank and used it in a duel or maybe against two ppl like both supports, there is a pretty high chance you can kill atleast one of them and even bait out cooldown like immortality and nade and sleep and then just TP out. she gets a lot of value when shes actually aggressive and i think you dont realize that because you dont have that playstyle at all and think her kunais are supposed to be thrown like some super inconsistent long range sniper rifle or for "self defense".
Look it's not the fact it was a stupid play from metro, he was taking RISK 1v1 a support in the backline, kiriko has ZERO RISK, SHE CAN JUST TP AWAY, Any other support and he atleast has a chance to 1v1 them. That's the problem, and no matter how people twist that, kiriko has a lot risk to her kit when people engage on her REGARDLESS OF WHEN AND WHERE because she can TP AWAY
to be fair she has zero risk without swift step there she's with her team and hes solo balls deep in the enemy backline. metro was dead before the clip even started. even if he killed the kiri then what? its not like he can just walk past the Roadhog or the enemy spawn. he's acting surprised he died there like he wasn't a dead man walking, he should be happy he even got a pick and forced main cds
@@THECAMERON11 yeah for sure but before i watched this video i thought metro was the most brain damaged, delusional, undeserving high ranked player out there but this guy wrote his script so well in order to earn that spot for himself
there is no possibly maybe getting out, there was a Roadhog literally blocking the door to get out from spawn that he would have had to walk .5 meters in front of to get out lol. And there's no way he woulda been able to kill it before the kiri and sojourn respawned if he killed them. You literally see him peek the other people in the team earlier in the clip. He woulda just staggered himself harder, it's good he died there. I get how kirikos abilities work, I just think even without any of them he was dead there. I dont disagree the combination of everything kiri can do covers too much ground, but nothing in the clip proves that claim. He woulda died to literally any hero, and if the enemy team respected his angle at all he would have died even sooner. @@clayy5095
@@THECAMERON11. But even if they were fighting on point, the same thing happens, she can just tp away or cleanse herself during a 1v1, and yoir logic doesn't make sense to me, If he kills a support player in the backline and lives he gets a shit ton of value cause then he go behind and apply pressure and the enemy team is down a support, imagine if kiriko didn't tp away and he killed soujourn and kiriko. He would have had immense value, and might I add he kept a support away from the fight and killled a dps, affectively making a 3-4 on point for his team a massive advantage.
@@notster7114. Metro kept the attention of 2 enemy players in this clip; a support away from her team and secured a kill against a dps. Whatever your arguments are against metro he actually gave his team an advantage and your argument is literally "put yourself in a more advantageous spot to make up for the power gap between kiriko and soldier". Literally probing my point.
I don't think the Metro clip shows Soldier is forgiving. Even though he was extremely out of position the enemy team didn't punish him smartly Kiri and Sojourn went into it 1vs1 so his bad position didn't matter. Also, healing station is not a broken ability imo. In 1vs1 it's a great sustain tool but the fact it isn't mobile really hurts it as an ability, most of the time you gotta move away from it.
Soldier is a horrible hero in so many situations. They go anything that hard denys space (sigma, junkrat, or sigma widow, etc anything that is a huge threat) and its a map like circuit royale, nepal, Dorado attack, Havana attack,Watchpoint: Gibraltar attack, Hollywood, Numbani, Paraiso and many more if they do a comp like that and your on any of these maps, soldier is quite literally unplayable if your team doesn't help out. Theres 0 maps where any support is unplayable, Even most tanks are playable no matter the map. If you play enough soldier you will understand. So anyone saying soldier is forgiving or good in anyway is delusional. Especially if they play support. support role is the most forgiving thing in the world. Its so easy its not even funny
I agree, the comparison of aim accuracy = who played better is also quite stupid to me, the way metro played utilising cover/peeks very well, hitting a good amount of shots on kiriko (when her hitbox is the size of a stickbug), whilst also using the splash of his rockets to better secure burst damage on her, imo outside of aim improvements and simply not being behind the enemy lines in the first place, there was nothing he could of done better in the clip. The issue metro was showing I think was that kiriko can engage into very unmatched situations, aiming to get a lucky kill, and just get out at a moments notice with 0 repurcussion (tp is only ~6 sec long cd, its not something that metro forcing kiri to use is incredibly valuable to his team), the sojourn equally should of won the 1v1 duel but lost due to poor engagement and poor aim. However, it's still ridiculous that healing station is on a longer cd than suzu too. (and that suzu heals AND invul AND cleanses etc). overall utilising that clip to say "kiriko is not broken metro is just bad at aim" is an awful way to attempt to prove their point.
About the metro clip: - Firing helix into the ground is literally how you use it. You said it yourself - hitting projectiles is hard. Shooting their feet is way more reliable and guaranteed damage, specially up against one of the tiniest hit boxes in the game (you often do the same thing with pharah rockets too, as no one is hitting direct shots every time). - It's way easier to have over 25% in a normal match with a mass of enemy players and a big meatball tank you farm all game than 1v1ing, I repeat, one of the tiniest hitboxes in the game. Saying "You have over 25% accuracy, you're better than metro" is not how the game works. You could sit there with 60% accuracy, nailing the enemy orisa all game - you're not really doing anything. 30k damage that only got converted into 5 kill is kind of worthless. Do a series of 1v1s against kirikos, then you can start comparing accuracies to the 24% of the clip. I'm not saying that you can't do better or that metro is an unmatched god, I'm saying the comparison was not fair or realistic. - I think you're overselling soldier. He's good in 1v1s and a decent all around-er. But you know how it goes. Jack of all traits, master of none. ESPECIALLY in high rank lobbies. Check the top 500 leaderboard. He's there, for sure. Tracer and Soujorn are just twice as much. He gets nerfed every now and then because it's clear they have been balancing focusing on the lower ranks and he's a lower skill floor hero that therefore becomes proportionally stronger in comparison to stuff like soujorn the lower you go in the ladder. But even in bronze, there are many easier heroes that outshine him. - 50% movement boost with a 0 second cooldown, but he can't shoot while he does it, he's built like a box and is double the size of kiriko. Saying her hitbox is larger than it appears changes nothing, that is the case for literally every hero. You gotta compare the real hitbox of kiriko with the real hitbox of other heroes, not the real hitbox of kiriko with the apparent hit boxes of other heroes. Also, don't underestimate how relevant they are to hero balance, just a few weeks ago they tuned Mauga's hit box when he was deemed too easy to kill, for example. - When people complain about kunai being easy to hit (which I don't even necessarily agree with, but whatever), it's a projectile size issue, not a hitbox issue. A hero has their hitbox and that's it, unless it gets balance changes like they sometimes do. Similarly, every heroes' attacks has their specific projectile size, be it projectile or hitscan (I know it's weird to think of projectile size in hitscan/beams, but it is a thing. It just basically makes the point that you gotta put on a heroes hitbox to do damage larger, and therefore easier to intersect. Best example of this is Moira's ult - it's a beam, so technically hitscan, and the projectile size is massive, so it's very easy to aim with even compared to other beams). A recent and relevant example of how much this matters is launch illari vs. current illari. Before they massively reduced her projectile size, even a player with a severe case of main tank aim like myself could easily two tap people out of the game. It's much more skillful to do so now.
Metro is fully right tho in the aspect of kirkio is far to easy to live on and dont forget this is a support shes not meant to have absurd dmg, the tp and immune and a pretty much get out of jail free card
If you as a dps is dueling a kiri and she uses both cds without killing you, she has no utility for the next teamfight and you'll probably have yours back in the next few seconds. It doesn't feel rewarding to bait out cds but it's very impactful on the outcome of the game.
@@kamthescholar its not you're "supposed to" its a risk you take for greater value, im not saying i completely agree with ameratsu but taking this risk and than failing so miserably is a bad play, however he didnt even fail he got his value and got killed by kiriko a trade where he wins anyway
I was just told that this guy was hard stuck platinum in Overwatch 1 and due to rank inflation and all of the other fun bits about Overwatch 2 competitive, he shot up the ranks to top 500. Danteh really was right when he said it support is the strongest role with the weakest players
The problem is the damage, escape, healing, immortality, mobility all wrapped together. She just has everything and can do it all from a safe range inside her team.
And you shit talking Metro is only because you probably don't like him. He played good. Killed a dps, and forced Kiri to use both her broken ass abilities.
so the reason that youre not headshotting the tracer in practice range is because the projectile is massive and hitting her chest before it would be able to crit.
Actually its so massive that it's hitting her arms reaching out before her head, this video is either a troll or this dude is massively boosted by Kiriko to be able to reach Top 500
Glad another comment reminded me but complaining about soldier is WILD even if it was just a comparison to prove a point. So is using something like a win rate or percentages to judge how good or bad a character is. That’s something the devs do and it’s something that needs to stop. Stats don’t give the full story.
personally, i don't think kiriko should be able to two tap dps, but that doesn't happen often in low elo so we should just let the gm's suffer on that one
I'm in doubt about this. Should support be able to two taps someone? Should this be exclusive for dps? Should tanks also be able to do that? Just like doom or sigma. A support having that power sounds strange to me, but we have literally insta kill heroes.
@@Aeni13 there should be drawbacks if you can do another roles jobs like zen, zen does tons of damage but only has kick and discord as defences, while kiri she has busted cool downs such as teleport, suzu, and wall run with high damage potential so there's almost no drawback to her kit its impossible to kill a kiri in 1v1 is you're somewhat evenly matched
@@callmeacutekitten8106 I think bap should have those drawbacks too, but yes. The only problem here is that Blizzard refuses to test it out. I really think her tp and wall climb are completly fine, but if they just test changes on how her damage and suzu works, maybe there wouldn't be so much problem.
@@Aeni13 bap and anna should have a rework or a change to their abilities specifically lamp and anti so it can be less obnoxious and can use it more in the fight
I love how in your tangent on why its okay that kiri can 2 shot from 150m but widow can't, you talk about it being "unpredictable" but completely avoid the fact that it's NOT unpredictable when what you're throwing kunai down is a choke the enemy team is most CERTAINLY running down... Not to mention, when you're just throwing kunai by pure chance you're going to hit your knives. As a matter of fact, your breakdown of Metro's clip showed that. What a horrendous argument... Also smart to ONLY shoot at the tracer's feet and show no clips of you shooting at where he drew the border around her head... Weird. Convenient... Btw, her kunai prejectile is OBJECTIVELY larger than many other projectiles in the game, to include heroes like Hanzo.
3:22 you ignored the fast movement speed in this game. Spamming projectiles is always easy to hit regardless if its at a choke or not. Hitscan with dmg fall off plus the healing on the enemy team = no dmg dealt. Even headshot feels extremely underwhelming, Im not rewarded for my precise aim and its not fun.
4:22 just spam it on the head height, you win duels with widow at least 90% of the time. I dont know what you expect from a hitscan, but theres no way you always get instant headshoted when you peak with overwatch movement speed.
I dont personally like metro as a person, but hes got a point and its absolutely correct from a shooter stand point, you win you lose because of your aim, your movement, not because of some stupid abilities. Its easy to fix this problem, just dont call it FPS anymore, cuz it is a first person moba.
You talked about cd cd, but if you really come from fps background youll know and agree ow2 is a shooter wannabe, height and aim are what makes or breaks a fight in a shooter, not abilities.
This video instantly goes into vod review mode of what soldier did wrong given huge current state of the game, which completely miss the point of the clip in my opinion.
Nah fuck kiri, supports shouldn't be that. Lucio can do the same thing, but no one is complaining about him cuz he's abilities are not as powerful as kiri's.
It doesn't matter he is making tons of mistakes, he is taking risk being there kiriko is not taking any risk. Having 2 escape abilities on your kit is absolutely ridiculous and I don't why anyone is ever going to try and make an argument otherwise. I have gotten GM1 on Kiriko and GM1 on mauga yet I'm master 3 on dps, because mauga and kiriko are insanely broken and reward me way to much than other heroes
Hiya! I think your accuracy comparison is a little bad faith. Kiriko has a ridiculous hitbox for hit scan and as you said, projectiles make hitboxes feel much larger because of the projectile size and the way it travels. But that is another point that works to reinforce metros claim. This make your accuracy comparison feel really bad. Kiriko had 1% better accuracy dueling a larger, hit scan character. I also believe you poisoned the well when it comes to the conversation of suzu. Intangibility alone as you mentioned is almost useless (it can be used to counter some ulti's or give a person a small amount of time to turn a fight but meh). But when intangibility is on top of a cleanse, AOE, AND 110 heal (or 70) it just feels like an overloaded ability. The zarya comparison is interesting but kiriko cares much less about line of sight and has the ability to suzu and immediately start healing them. I dislike how when you spoke about suzu you took parts of suzu and compared to them other abilities when you have to look at the ability as a whole. Sure reapers phase out is a better get out tool but its personal, non-AoE and can't actually keep a fight going. For disclaimer: This was the dirst time i had heard of metro. I am also bronze so if you want to disregard everything i said go nuts :)
Most of your points are reasonably fair but you seem to be implying hitscan is harder to hit than projectile or something? "Kiri has a ridiculous hitbox for hitscan"? "[Only] 1% higher accuracy than a hitscan hero"? Hitscan is much easier to hit than proj. She doesn't have a hard hitbox for hitscan specifically, and the fact she had a higher accuracy in that duel despite being proj is to her credit.
@@Nyxtia the percentage is deceitful at best soldier has double the firing speed meaning double the chances to miss along with his damage needing to be continuous while kiriko had sojourn do most of the damage
@@comedyman2817 bruh it's double the chances to hit too lmao what is this logic. Also rof has nothing to do with hitscan vs proj. And yes Soju did most of the damage, again nothing to do with hitscan vs proj though.
I mean ofcourse if they're standing still or aiming down as widow or ana it's gonna be easy but hitting a moving target in the head two times in a row is unrealistic
@@FairwellNoob have you ever played kiri because its not hard at all you literally dont even need to aim just put crosshair at head and shoot, if they're a+d strafing it'll headshot every time, if they crouch spam sometimes the projectile hitbox will just bug out and hit them anyway even if it shouldnt, and if they're better at movement than that then you should be better at aiming than that
Support as a class is incredibly strong for countless reasons but defending Kiriko is just a losing battle, her kit plays like blizzard didn’t even know their game was played competitively. Ever since ow2 launched, the game has been getting more and more boring, with support power creep like crazy, dps players don’t have an impact (maybe one shots), and tank is miserable. I just think kirikos Suzu should either be single target, or have a longer cooldown. Immorality abilities as a whole are pretty lame. 17:39 also I disagree with this Genji slander, genjis defensive ability is fine because it has counter play (just don’t shoot at him lmao).
bro, as a support main you don't even need to aim kunais just throw a bunch at head level and 1 of them is bound to headshot and do like a bajillion damage
Cannot wait for this guy to double down on everything hes saying in this video when certain people react to this, I really wish this was bait I just know this guy got t500 in past 2 seasons with a sub50 wr, anyone with a background in gm or top 500 can see the value in wasting the opponents time in the metro clip
My opinion as a tank main. Metro had a good point just had the wrong clip. Kiriko is very hard to punish as a character due to her very small hitbox and 2 abilities that just saves her. Her damage idrc about. Suzu is a broken ability like the fact it can just negate so many ultimates and you get it faster than every ult. I do not like to use win rates as proof to a argument. She has a low win rate maybe because she is somewhat new in the grand scheme. A lot of metal don't know how to play her and they pick her cause she might help. The win rate is a skill diff. In high ranks she is very strong. I hate anti and lamp aswell cause you know a tank main. I have been playing kiriko alot this season cause honestly she does so much and yea she is very hard to kill. Soldier is not a broken character he is pretty easy to punish even if his run is on 0 seconds. He can't shoot when he runs so. His rocket usually is shot at the ground cause it's harder to hit a direct. Pro players aim at the feet mainly with rocket sooooo. Atm the state the game is eh. I stopped playing tank cause I hate the fact that many supports impact the game harder and causes unfun moments for tanks.
I’ll preface im a support main and tank 2nd. That being said supports don’t carry games as much as people say we more so enable our team to pop off. Mauga is the best example he can absolutely carry but only with the supports helping. Without it he gets melted and supports cant get a 2-3k every fight to hard carry like the consensus seems to be.
Low ranks can’t aim and just heal bot with her, so her winrate isn’t gonna ever be crazy like a truly braindead support’s would. But yeah as you climb kiri’s start doing way more
@@jsmooth8655 Supports carry the game what are you smokeing . Entire OW2 is build around supports they do basicly everything . Supports do dmg heal and have the most valued ults and abilitys how do they not carry basicly every game . Thats one of the support players bubbel thinking that there role isnt the only thing that kind of matter is OW2 right now .
@@jsmooth8655 i dont think thats a good example at all..? Mauga is a very strong and borderline OP character and he also NEEDS the healing so ofc you will be enabling him. its more like you are forced to enable him while hes also an extremely strong character rn so ofc he will pop off. likes its not hard to just hold m2 healing ofuda on him and just press E on him when you see his health bar get a purple outline and then he will just do all the work for you because hes that strong rn
Tank is miserable. I might just go to Val at this point I don’t care about the difference in skill I have between overwatch and Val at this point I’d rather be crawling in the trenches of bronze on Val than suffering on tank in the higher ranks on OW. Sometimes I wonder how you make a game this unenjoyable. Usually the fun in competitive games comes from winning and it’s like that for most games. But with overwatch it’s like an addiction, it sucks when you lose but when you win it doesn’t even feel good or enjoyable, it just feels like you’ve had some pressure relieved. I don’t even get any sense of accomplishment anymore from winning, every game feels like its out of my control. It really is impressive how stagnation leads to these levels of misery.
Ok bro you riding Kiri's shaft is ridiculous. Her having inconsistent damage doesn't mean it's not broken af for her to 2 tap. They need to make her headshots weaker but rework her in a way so she does more consistent damage. She's still the top 2 most broken supports in the game. You saying you used her in season 1 shows the kind of person you are
another support main (im guessing) that completely takes the metro clip out of context. the point isnt his positioning or what he was doing, its that a support hero can combat a dps hero, do similar if not more damage than a dps, all while having 1-2 get out of jail free cards, something that few dps have. As a kiri, i can frontline in the beginning of fights, get a stupid 2 tap, and tp out the second i feel pressure. No risk, all of the reward to be gained. Something only supports can have.
I'm not disagreeing with the video in general but I just want to point out at 8:09 Metro shot the ground near her legs because it's easier/ more consistent to hit Kiriko's legs compared to her main body/ head and isn't that uncommon at high level play. You can see the same thing done with Tracer at a high level as well. Also in my opinion, I just don't think it should be invulnerability. Maybe some overhealth given, but an entire cooldown blocking a high dmg ult for a team just irks me. Like Zen and Lucio counter ults makes sense because well they're ults. So I will like make it a lower cooldown and maybe buff it's healing and make it give 50ish overhealth. Edit: When I said high level, I didn't mean that as an insult though I understand it could come off like that. Also i'm not trying to say Amaterasu is wrong or anything just giving my 2 cents.
Kiriko is the result of a poorly thought out hero because Blizz wanted to force more counterplay to Anti, so they came up with Suzu and that became her identity. It's also what she's mostly balanced around. Now we have an ability that is honestly way too strong, but can't be nerfed much because the rest of her kit also can't be buffed without: 1) Her DPS being too much 2) Her ULT being too strong 3) Her Survivability (in TP) cooldown being too low. She suffers from the issue Cassidy has with his new nade. He's balanced around it, and it can't be nerfed too much (which it has) because then the rest of his base kit has to be buffed, but can't be buffed too much without him being oppressive in that regard (which is why they reduced his range and haven't buffed his base kit despite the nerfs to nade). So instead, his nade got nerfed 3 times in a row, they tried compensation buffs (that weren't to his base kit - as a DPS who needs to deal damage and secure elims) that do almost nothing to try and "patch" the issue, and it didn't work and he's been left to need more attention and a possible rework - as noted by Blizz themselves. Kiri SHOULD be on the same boat, especially when Bio Anti gets nerfed (because turns out trying to balance it through Kiriko as the counterpart was a horrible idea for an ability that was too overly oppressive and needed tunning anyway), Suzu will have to get more nerfs - likely its recent compensation burst heals buffs reverted - and especially because burst healing and damage will be going down. But that won't be enough to make Suzu "balanced," and Blizz doesn't want to nerf her and shaft her like Cass because she's a new hero, so they're dancing around the issue instead - stalling. I'm genuinely interested in how they plan to address these issues, if ever. Immorts (and it's more than just an immort in this case) have been a design problem to balance in OW for a long time, and even more in a 5v5 format. I honestly think that all forms of FULL immortality should go and the game would be healthier, especially when burst damage goes down, which means it'll be harder to secure elims, and you can't nerf *literal* immort relative to the damage nerfs without immort (by design of immortality) retaining more power - in short, immorts will only get relatively stronger when burst damage gets nerfed, even if they get nerfs as well. Though, immorts will likely never fully go beacuse that would require... more buffs and potential reworks. They created a problem for themselves here. A fundamentals one. For Kiri, Suzu shouldn't do it all, but at the same time, without Suzu at its current state, what can you buff about her without her becoming too much? Buff her heals and that's heal creep, buff her damage and that's support damage creep (she becomes even more of an assassin), buff her ult and we remember how that went.k She's doomed, *by design* to have a "low" WR, and the only way to raise it without kit changes would be to make her overtuned, which I'm sure OW players will love. Blizz wants a higher WR on her? She needs a rework. One that allows her to not be balanced around an over the top ability such as Suzu.
I think projectiles should have damage falloff, but only for headshots, and mainly in the support class, most of them are almost like a DPS with better escape abilities + self heal, it's really dumb
Bro you are a product of boosted supports in the past 2-3 seasons of support dominance. Your game knowledge respectfully is very mid Diamond at best. Go Samitos video that dropped today. You’ll see.
I agree with metro to some extent. Kiri can engage with decent damage potential, and can get out withoutbany issue. This is not somwthing a support should be able to do. With high damage potential mobility needs to be sacraficed.
Winrate and pick rates mean nothing when a character is as super popular as Kiriko. The Metro Tweet is indeed a perfect example of what's wrong with the game, low effort, high impact, and rewarded for intentionally playing bad and playing in a way where you would normally get punished, except you don't.
metro is in their backline 2v1ing a sojourn and kiriko while their entire team is trying to cap yet still gets a kill, he hits almost no shots on the kiriko wastes all of his cds and still manages to get value what exactly is your point here not to mention hes flanking on girbraltr on a point of the map where he has absolutley no way to get out, if you genuinley believe metro should be rewarded for running straight into their backline and get 2 picks and than continue back to the team fight i think you might be stupid this is essentially going into the backline as widow in a giant open area with no cover firing 5 shots missing all of them and getting killed by a support, that is not an overwatch or support issue its literally just a positioning issue
@@inkweb Metro was dueling the Kiri first not the Sojourne, the Kiri could duel that Soilder without committing, miss her shots, take damage, and bail out whenever she wanted, then come back and win the fight. I'm not hearing it.
I wanna paste this argument that I typed for others using kiri's winrate to make a point just in case anyone else in here tries to do it (also because it was in the thumbnail) bro I always hate when people just shout winrate to try to say that a character isn't blatantly fucking broken If we go by that logic, sym is the best dps, brig is the best support, reinhardt is the 2nd best tank, bap ana and kiriko are bad, ball is better than dva and roadhog, hanzo and sombra are bad, and so on You see how dumb that is? You don't look at winrates to determine if a character is good or not because they can change depending on other factors such as one tricks (people who can perform well despite their characters flaws), which rank plays them the most, how much they're played in general etc. Instead, look at the characters value and see if they should be buffed or nerfed. Kiriko has -an invincibility and cleansing ability -is near unkillable because she requieres you to fucking run around the whole map to kill her whenever you want to engage because of her teleport -has the smallest hitbox in the game -can 2 shot people with her primary fire with no falloff damage -has one of the best ultimates in the game -has healing that doesn't need to be aimed -and even has a wallclimb to top it off and make her even more unkillable She 100% deserves to recieve a nerf. TLDR: Winrate doesn't 100% show whether a character is good or not and can be manipulated by many things, which makes it unreliable at best. Kiri is op and 100% deserves to be nerfed. Edit: I forgot to mention, she also doesn't even have any counters. Except for mauga, but honestly I don't even see how she gets countered by him? Yes he can apply a consistent burn affect that she can't cleanse, but you can also just not suzu the burn and use it on something else.
first off, yes, brig got nerfed because her winrate rate compared to her pickrate was very big in high ranks (tho this was honestly more of a consequence of Ana), and sombra was a niche pick before the rework. you also can't show the toolkit and say it's broken because it sounds like a lot, was release lifeweaver OP for having 8 abilities?, obviously pure numbers don't mean OP or not, but you can't also say something is broken with no results.
@@hassanchapa6529 "yes brig got nerfed because her winrate". ok? That's not a good thing. It just shows that even the devs are now following this philosophy for some reason. Yes, I can. I can 100% list the ups and downs of something and say whether or not it's good. That how you SHOULD balance things rather than relying on a stat that can be manipulated by many things. Cause really, are you gonna say that ana and bap are also not good because they have even LOWER winrates. The lifeweaver example gets completely stuffed when you also list the downs that he had (which were very present) and realize that Kiriko has no downs. She has all that stuff, and no downsides. I guess maybe she's not that great with poke and there are better options. But that's about it. TLDR: The devs following that philosphy isn't a good thing. And it's not that "she has a lot of things" idk how you thought that. It's that she has too many good/great things about her with little to no downsides. Stop trying to say kiri isn't good by using a statistic that is inconsistent at best.
Your projectile argument is just completely wrong… compare mercy’s blaster and zens projectiles… you’ll see mercy’s blaster shots have a bigger hitbox Edit: you also said Zaryas bubble is better than suzu… what? You are ignoring the fact that suzu can hit an entire team, while bubble is single target… Another edit: you also said soldiers healing station is better than ANY support ability… yeah no this has to be a joke
My guy how is it the healing station "stronger than any support ability in the game"? Sure it's strong for a DPS, but the character you're defending has an entire kit composed of abilities that are ALL significantly better than it.
Also, Kiriko is not underperforming. 49% is within range of meta related errors, she is very close to performing perfectly even. Just a list of shockingly bad takes from a usually reasonable creator.
Win rate doesn't mean shit when you talk about a character's strength, R6's lion had a "low win rate" in ladder when he had a 100% ban rate in pro play, Tekken's Akuma is undisputed no.1 and has one of the lowest win rates online. Cooldown are way too fast, her suzu which grants cleanse, immortality, intagibility, 80-110 healing is only 15 seconds (soldier's healing is 18), why the fuck is reaper's tp 10 seconds while kiriko's is only 7? The cowboy's roll used to be EIGHT SECONDS LONG, in what world is his roll more valuable than swiftstep?
If people wanna talk about ridiculous supports, I think illari wins that competition, insane burst damage for a support, healing turret and mobility is insane. I think kiriko’s damage is very inconsistent for avg players
@@Aeni13because it’s a relatively easy move to get off that gives a lot of reward because they can’t aim and her body distorts when she does res and you can get some things that should not happen and gives a bunch of value
tbf illari does not win it. her hitbox makes her easier to hit than kiriko and she doesnt really have a get out of jail like kiriko does where she can just tp on a 7 second cooldown or just suzu herself and heal to continue the fight. while illari's shift barely gets her out most of the time since shes still visible which is funny because swiftstep and illari's shift are BOTH on a 7 second cooldown. You should only really lose to an illari if she has her pylon down and its healing her in a duel but you CAN out dmg the healing its not that bad.
Invulnerability is way more useful than healing. It has the ability to negate whole ults on a small cooldown. There is no way you compared genji's deflect to it when beams can go through it and can be countered by simply not shooting him.
I would like to play Devil's Advocate for the soldier's accuracy bit of the video: Soldier 76 fires way more shots than a Kiriko does per second, *with recoil*, making it harder to control where he wants to shoot. Also, the soldier is aiming at a character almost as small as Tracer who can deal almost as much damage as a Soldier rocket *if* she lands a headshot, give herself a cleanse and invincibility for a brief moment, and can teleport away from the fight scott-free. It's expected that a soldier isnt going to land at least half or more of his shots unless he's aiming at a bigger target, similar to Mauga and his average accuracy. The soldier could have definitely hit more shots on Kiriko, but the reason why this is so viral and polarizing is because Kiriko can choose when to disengage and is safe to teleport most of the time when she does. Meanwhile, the soldier has to scramble to move and survive. I'm not supporting that he shouldve won that engagement, because his positioning was horrible since he was essentially doing a 1v2, but that's why people are complaining. It *feels* unfair because the Kiriko can essentally reset her end of the fight like a Tracer with recall.
The recoil is easily controllable, hitting consistent kunai crits isn't, I'd say the kunai hitboxes needs to be smaller but that's about it, idk why that one clip is getting glazed for, he baited their cooldowns, stalled a dps and support, if his team had a strong defense without him then his positioning shouldn't matter so much. Solider gets the most value staying with his team anyways, the situation they were in wouldn't be any different if they went soujrn ana, soujrn bap, why do ppl only complain when it's kiriko, if ana was there, she would've fully negated his healing station and all he would have is cover, but by then both of then would be healed.
I think the biggest problem is that he was completely out of position, and attempting a 1v2 being in the enemy backline with no escape is very dumb He is showing off his bad game play to shit on kiriko and look I don't even like kiriko but his video was trash
@@Memelord-md5hsthe thing people forget is that those 2 were also out of position, and ofc as it should sojourn and soldier died due to their positioning yet in the clip kiriko is able to get put scot free and come back and kill him
Luckily even mL7 himself said that kiriko is too op, but its always nice that people try to find ways to justify for how broken a character is, saying healing station from soldier is stronger than any support ability is just insanity, idk if some support players like u are playing a different game, but how is like roughly 200 healing over several seconds, stronger than a rez, a cleanse with immortality, immortality field, etc, that just doesnt make any sense at all, and then randomly talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the whole point of kiriko being op, but aight, also saying all hitboxes are the same on like the dps category or support caterogy, like are u even playing the game? but aight, apparently soldier is now busted bc he made a good play and kiriko has a get out of jail card every 7 seconds, damn
I think you're right about her damage not being the best, but the reason she's overtuned is that her damage is wrapped up with a teleporting get out of jail free card and another get out of jail free card for herself and her team. Yes, if you throw suzu at a poorly positioned teammate they can still die, but there are simply too many things shes decent-great at to be on one character.
I used to think making suzu just a cleanse/heal would make it useless but I recently changed my opinion bc obviously the burst heal would be good regardless but suzu as just a cleanse would negate something from 18 out of 39 heroes, that’s about half the cast and 8 of those 18 are ultimates, so cleanse w her burst healing she has now, I think it would actually be pretty alright
@momdad1818 not when it would have a burst heal like I said, it really wouldn't be that situational, you can still burst heal and save ppl form a bunch of stuff, just not one shots
If they remove the Invulnerability, that would justify a lower cooldown, somewhere around 10 seconds for a cleanse. Sure, J.Queen's Ult would suffer for it but that's a discussion later down the line.
The widow example is so bad when you consider that kiri isn't at risk when peeking a widow "twice" because of three reasons: 1) widow has damage fall-off, kiriko doesn't 2) kiriko can cleanse to avoid and/or heal damage 3) widow takes longer to fire a shot than kiriko does At least use some critical thinking when youre making videos like these.
*gets shattered* “damn I wish I had soldiers healing pad right about now”
HAHAHA
Lmfaoooo 😭💀
*5 man nade* "don't worry, soldier has his Healing field down while zigzagging, we're all good"
😂😂
This is some premium level kiriko player brain damage
Not gonna lie to you, i have half a mind to download this video as proof to how being a Support main in this game poisons the mind
fax
LMAO
As a support main I'm scared of getting this desease...
@@NanoMp40don’t worry not all supports are this bad just this kiriko cause holy fuck he has some advantages stages of brain rot
He makes a lot of good points. Some I didn’t agree with.
You lost me at “Soldier healing station is better than most support abilities”
Nonono, he said stronger than ANY support ability. You name it, he thinks soldier E is better.
Same. I had to stop when he said that. He's trolling.
He shouldnt have said that but soldier is busted and keeps getting buffed every other patch. 0 cd mobility, 120dmg rocket on a short cd, and can heal himself to full as a dps? his ult isnt gonna team kill but if you're halfway intelligent you can consistently get 2 kills for free. Then they removed his recoil and allowed him to do dmg from ashe range for no reason. Whenever a dps is getting rolled, they swap to soldier.
@n4ttyyy I agree with you, I honestly want Soldier to get nerfed or just remove that healing station to begin with and just give him a heal for himself or just remove the heal all together. Whenever someone starts losing, they switch to Soldier and just win automatically or lose terribly. Honestly, if they nerf him(which I hope they do) that'll give smurfs who use him a good slice of karma for ruining our ranked games. The same can go for genji, simply because he's hard to deal with and annoying, even when you have beam characters. And if you say Genji is hard to play, that's a lie. I'll give you a bone because his ult requires close range and is hard to hit but all of his other things are annoying and just tedious, especially his hitbox and mobility.
Thanks for letting me know off the rip that watching this video would be a waste of time
bro thought he was cooking 💀
"Pls don't nerf my broken main"
"I got to top 500 with it" *Glances at Mauga*
This video is massive support main cope. Kiriko is so busted and oppressive. She is actually meta defining. Overwatch is a game where we are all pawns in a larger support war between ana and kiriko.
As long as ana exists I'll tolerate kiriko. I main tank and a good kiri is a godsend when i go against granny on the enemy team.
@@lukeaustin4465 you can punish ana, cant punish kirkio
@@Retr0Duck an Ana that has good positioning is hard to punish.
@@lukeaustin4465 and a kiriko with bad positioning is nigh impossible to punish
@@lukeaustin4465 Ana cannot teleport, climb, or self-immort though. And her hitbox feels more forgiving to the attacker.
Bro really say that healing station that only heal is better than suzu , Ana nade , immortality field, healing burst , life grip , healing pylons, kiri tp , rez , sleep dart , i don’t like heal station but plz don’t spill those nonsense
Pretty sure he just means in terms of numbers healing station heals for 200hp in 5sec and it can heal everyone. bap healing burst does have a way wider area true but that only heals for 40-80 and I agree suzu is by far the best ability but not for it's healing same with immoirtality field. those just disrupt the flow of the dual and that's just unhealthy but if anything mei has the strongest healing ability! 200hp and you cant even hit her!!
@@Loller271 bap healing burst heals for 150 on targets below half hp, 100 burst and then more over time
@@Loller271 i mean technically true but looking at just the numbers without context is super braindead. soldiers station for example rarely heals more than 200hp, most of the time used on just the soldier and maybe one other tm8. the healing is slow compared to actual supports and you have to stay in one spot + a 15 second cooldown, which is not even comparable to supports heroes' cooldowns. And Mei's ice block is even worse imo cuz you cant move, cant shoot back at the enemy and they can just preaim all their abilities on ur head, so you're forced to use ice block in defensive positions where the invulnerability adds nothing and it just reduces down to a slow 200hp heal. I don't have a problem with both these abilities being bad, cuz they belong to dps heroes who shouldn't have strong heals imo, but the same somehow doesnt apply to support who on top of great healing/support also have insane dps output. feel like thats where the problem with a lot of broken heroes like kiriko is, the ability to do everything well (heal/damage/mobility/survivability) instead of specialising in one or two areas, like lucio who is mobile and really hard to kill, but doesnt really do much damage or healing, or soldier even who has great damage and mobility, but bad heals and still just a squishy with no shield/protection ability to help him stay alive.
@@Loller271look at the numbers like another said is brain dead. Healing pad rarely even gets above 2k healing in one full game.
Facts, healing station doesn't even really make that big of a difference imo. I actually find it relatively balanced ngl.
Theres trade-offs to having a character be good in certain things. The problem is that kiriko is good at everything
She's not good at everything. Let's not set her up.
@@letsgo1572 she needs a big nerf
@@letsgo1572 keep lying to yourself
@harmansingh95100 if she's good at everything, ow 2 magnum opus, then why doesn't everyone play with her?
@letsgo1572 everyone does play her...
As a support main, I am tired of these arguments.
Just admit it, the majority of our supports are overtuned.
And I know some of the winrates seems fair, but they are mostly used to compare the supports to each other. Therefore, if we nerf most of the support role as a whole, it’s not like Kiriko would fall to a 30% winrate.
It’s insane how upset support mains get and the mental gymnastics they perform to prove otherwise when you simply tell them their role is overtuned lol
Also, 49% is generally considered balanced - AND that includes (depending on list) kiri vs kiri matchups. Also includes people who cannot play the character trying to play her. She requires slightly more skill to hit shots with than most other characters. Of course she has a low winrate total, low level players suck with her.
Bro really tried to compare reaper wraith form to Suzu 💀. Reaper can’t attack while in wraith, he can’t protect his teammates with wraith, unlike Suzu. If a Dva bomb is coming at a team 1 Suzu can invalidate the Ult, best reaper could do is wraith and try to 1v5 💀
Dva bomb:
Reaper: "DON'T WORRY GUYS, I HAVE WRAITH"
Actually just saying "Screw yall at least I live" seems quite in character for reaper
I wasn't expecting a Kiriko main to be smart anyway, but damn... This is some next level braindead idiocy.
Never cook again bro💀
The fact that Reinhardt's charge can be hooked and interrupted in many ways, but not Mauga's is embarrassing. The fully-armored, jet-propelled charge < half-naked running dude.
Maybe it's time for Rein charge to get the same treatment.
REIN MAINS REJOICE!
Reinhardt's charge had the potential to one shot all squishys except for bastion and maybe torb as long as he grabs you, Rein can also boop people off the map easily, meanwhile Mauga's overrun can't kill heroes who get hit and have mobility and can only boop people off the map if they are close to the edge, Rein charge is more lethal while Mauga's is more consistent, but it is silly a half-naked dud is unstoppable while jet boosted armor covered rein isn't.
@@ReptonPlayspin is still really good
Pin can be an instakill it’s fair
pin doesn't kill reaper, mei, bastion, or torb. it got nerfed to 225 at some point which is honestly just bullshit@@neocrama
STOP MENTIONING WINRATE!
it means nothing!
the highest winrate in a perfect world is 50% since the game is designed for u to lose 50% of your games on average
low skill tier kirikos will pretty much ONLY spam ofuda and tank the average winrate of the player base
winrate talk in these arguments is also completely ignoring the rest of the 9 ppl in the lobby
show me real claims, like practical dps, and stop getting distracted with winrate talk and insulting ppl without actually giving real counter arguments to what theyre saying
i agree that kirikos practical dps is way lower than the theoretical, ur stupid to not agree, but i do not agree that some dude yapping about "anyone remotely decent knows kunai is busted" has anything to do with the actual argument. just look at the facts and look at the arguments being made.
thank you
Winrate doesnt tell everything, but it surely tells if a character is balanced or not. What it doesnt tell is how it feels to play or to play against.
Video is about Kiriko and my man complaining about Soldier being a "broken" character for 6 mins, kekw
i don't want to be too mean, but it feels like he's grifting, trying to pretend a perfectly normal hero is as broken as his main, so his main doesn't get nerfed to the ground, he's got a job playing the game after all, i imagine not many people would watch you if you were hard stuck plat/dimond once they nerf your OP main, so he's got to grift and pretend to keep his main relevant for as long as he can....
"Soldier's healing station is stronger than any support ability in the game" nice bait
it is tho. try duling soldier as a support when he has his healing station, it's impossible.
It kinda is by the numbers/in a vacuum.
People talk about how broken Bap shift is (10hps * 4 seconds + 40 or 80 burst) = 80 to 120 healing
but Soldier bio field is (40hps * 5 seconds) = always 200 healing.
It obviously isn't as impactful overall as nade or something.
@@Nyxtiabaps healing is instant soldier has to stay in his field
@@RolagLondevert2563same with dueling a bap,kiri,ana,moira(depends) and lucio sometimes
@@engineergaming3830 why are you replying to say what I already said - there is a 40/80 burst then 10hp per second heal, vs a 40hp per second heal.
Kiriko's kunais have a bigger hitbox than most projectiles while herself being really small so she can hit you easily while other should aim at your legs to hit you consistently
She should be a free win every time she's picked, right?
Kiri is lucky to hit 1 in 5 shots let alone hit the head
@@thomasfairfax4956 Low ranked players can make Mauga look bad. Let's not get ahead of ourselves trying to be snarky. It's easier and faster to use easier supports. Which is why even though Mercy isn't the best support atm, she has the best WR out of them - followed by Moira, another support that isn't the best/meta.
@@thomasfairfax4956is that why she is below 50 winrate every rank and break even at gm?
@@RemedieX Mercy goes from a 47% win rate in bronze to 52% in GM. She's far better in higher ranks precisely because she isn't easy to play.
Also Mercy is nowhere near highest win rate support, neither is Moira.
He talks about metro shooting helix rocket at feet. You can tell he has zero clue how small that hitbox is and talks about kiriko as if the hit box on kunai is massive and the problem with her is that she has everything a getting out of jail free card, Susu, and a 3x, and still has very good healing
Her kunais hitboxes are bigger than hanzo arrows
Except 1/3 the damage
@@lavyuna 115 vs 245 how is that 1/3? She can also throw 2 kunais while hanzo is about to shoot so her dps is actually higher
@@engineergaming3830 just use storm arrows
@@engineergaming3830 Kiriko is support hanzo is Dps they need to get rid of the more than 2x headshot damage on kiriko that would be a amazing nerf
I’m not a Metro fan in the slightest but he’s 100% right in that clip - kiriko can jump someone, begin to lose horribly, suzu herself for a second change at the 1v1, lose again, and tp away safely… that is not ok. And implying soldiers “0 second mobility” is just sad when you can literally go though walls come on bro
you cannot should while using the 0 second cd ability lol its not like its usefull in fight its mosly good outside of duels
The reason Kiriko's damage is NOT ok is because the rest of her kit is broken. Zenyatta is allowed to do a lot of damage, even though hes a support; because of the other issues in his kit. Zen can kill you quickly like kiriko yes, but this is because zen has a balanced hitbox, and doesn't' have a 7 second TELEPORT. You are right to a degree, that kirikos dps, in a vacuum, is not that crazy for a support. However, when you pair it with the constant power creep with mobility and hitboxes, it feels like way too much.
Yeah but her damage is contingent on headshots that generally require you to either be close up to hit consistently or you have to predict movement from far range. I mean in lower lobbies where people don't move it's easy but then you go to higher lobbies and you're not destroying people the way you might see in some clips. Not to mention you cannot reliably hit flying heroes, heroes with weird head hitboxes, or really burst down shields. Zen on the other hand has a projectile with a smaller radius but it travels faster so it's easier to hit things farther away. It does strong damage with body shots or otherwise. You can use it to burst down shields extremely effectively. It's simply a better weapon. It's a more extreme form of damage compared to Kiriko's kunai, especially with discord orb. Zen actually has been performing better than Kiriko at pretty much all ranks for awhile now too. I think from a game design perspective there's a good argument that Zen is a better designed hero than Kiriko (and I love him as I mained him in OW1) but I think this isn't a good comparison to use and it doesn't really prove your point that Kiriko is op. I mean if you watch this video it should be clear that the problems with Kiriko have nothing to do with her being overpowered and everything to do with her design as a character.
@@jamesburnett3594she just does a lot more then zen outside of damage that's the problem
@@jamesburnett3594 the question is WHY does kiriko need to 2 shot any squishy in the game? She has everything in her kit: wall climb, telport through walls, cleanse aoe heal.... like zen sits on the ground and kicks, but still takes the same amount of headshots to kill a squishy. It may not be OP at the highest level, but it's extremely annoying to play against.
@@carterhicks7441 Zen also has this ability called discord orb that effectively removes a giant portion of the hp bar from whoever he targets for free. When I play tank this is infinitely more annoying than anything Kiriko does. The winrates and stats speak for themselves. If you hate playing against Kiriko ask yourself whether you're even trying. You can't just disrespect her and expect to kill her for free. You have to track her CDs, bait them or, and not just mindlessly burn your own before she uses suzu. You have to be conscious of your movement as to not get 2 tapped for free. If you do these things she is pretty hard to play effectively. There's a reason she doesn't see much play in pro play and has bad stats. But many people have been taught by social media to learn incorrect things about her. It's pretty telling most people liked her until Illari came out and now everyone thinks she's busted because they watched a few videos.
She shouldn't be able to, she requires two heads shots the same as mei while being able to fire quicker @jamesburnett3594
12:34 what's happening is that the hitbox is so big that instead of flying above her arms it hits them before it reaches her head LMAO
Even if it was hitbox jank, you would never be fighting a tracer whose consistently in that position for her head to be blocked. So the argument is asinine.
And Kiriko has the same problem against other people. Her arm blocks more headshots than Tracer does and it is more consistent.
@@thiefpotato2759 yes that's what im saying he's taking like the worst example to try and make kiriko look bad
he's too close to tracer too and yeah her kunai hit box is bigger so probably connects to her arms first.
Also just realised hes outright lying too so thats wild
2:19 why yes Ana does more base damage and is hitscan it’s because she doesn’t have crits, so it evens out
It's also a DoT so she might just fail to kill a target because they got *Lucio healing* which comes in handy knowing if you're playing Moira because that means if she doesn't have the nade or sleeps you after the 3rd shot,she physically can't kill you if she's solo even at max fire speed which is slower than the entire DPS category iirc. Ana's primary isn't as great as one would think outside the no fall off Hitscan.
no fall off.
cass is 15dmg btw@@devindavon6615
And Ana doesn’t have 2 get out of jail free cards and a wall climb passive😭
but she got nade, this shit does 6 thing at the same time xd@@daddybacca
@@wever4873 yeah but kiri has a movement passive, potential to 2 tap most of the roster, a free escape in tp, one of the smallest hit boxes in the game ,and suzu which counters Ana nade and 90% of the other abilities in the game
In my opinion suzu just can do too much. It wouldn’t be bad if it was a single target thing but the fact it can give the whole team immortality, heal, and cleanse whatever negative effect they have is just crazy.
Single target Suzu would honestly be cool to see. It’s a nice idea.
@@amaterasu184 Then add it to Ana Grenade as well
Imagine if it’s like Rei’s ult from Paladins but just with Suzu’s effects? Sounds cool
I know it was my fault for not paying attention to cooldowns, but I threw a pulse bomb at the whole enemy team while they were in grav and kiriko suzu'd all of them, it felt so bad.
Losing feels bad marveler, that kiriko got to feel great. maybe they made a good play by holding it intentionally. Good on you for acknowledging not paying attention. Sometimes you forget in the excitement of a fat grav
this is rage bait, this has to be rage bait
its not look at his other videos
i think the bad part about kiri is that she can basically 1v1 the whole dps roster with ease and is really hard to punish
The problem isn't just 1v1ing dps characters like zen can do that it's the fact she can 1v1 you and can use suzu to become invulnerable and heal herself and even if she starts losing that 1v1 with suzu she just teleports away it's low risk high reward 😢
Most of the Support Roster can 1v1 the DPS roster, so that isn't a big factor here. The ONLy thing that actually counts toward making her busted, is the suzu. And even then, the invul lasts for half a second, and the 80 healing isn't much if a DPS with good accuracy is blasting her.
@@sergionieves8074 She can literally two tap you while she is invulnerable plus teleport, which teleport is the bigger problem in terms of 1v1 her.
@@sergionieves8074they can 1v1 the dps roaster but it's more high risk then kiriko
@@laughing5752 Its more like throwing half the time, Zen 1v1ing a dps, they will die most the time if the dps player is good, ana same thing, even bap, its heroes like kiri and illari that have just broken this balance and its very annoying. They do it on purpose too. We know you can make heros that have balanced draw backs, we have zen, ana, lucio but they choose to make these blatantly overpowered supports. If you can heal yourself, you have drawback to your damage. Its that simple.
"KiRiKo HaD To uSe CoOlDoWnS!!!!11!!!!1"
lmao sure is fun to go to the enmy backline, hide in a corner, press m1 twice, kill a squishy use suzu for instant 80/110 hp and get out unscaved.
not to mention she has a hitbox the size of an ant (shooting her legs is better than aiming for the head in most cases) and she gets crutches for everything, she can make more mistakes than any other hero and get away
(im a support main and this is bullshit)
correction
u can make more mistakes with moira!
only difference is that moira lives as a beginner hero that has no influence outside of bronze
I can punish Moira often, she has no burst damage and her mobility is way more predictable.
Kiri can also wall climb, which is super powerful and has no cooldown.
I hate kiri, i think her whole kit is rediculous and her hitbox needs some SERIOUS nerfs, i play in top500 and still see that stuoid character out dueling widow by spamming kunai's head height and spam crouch strafing, it is rediculous, the fact people defend her as a character is stupid, i miss ow1 when they didn't have all the immortality/super high dps supports...
someone cant duel...
@@IsMyNameUnique moira fade and kiri swift step are not on the same level because you can travel much further with swift step, you can also make more mistakes with kiri since she has suzu and moira only has orb.
edit: to elaborate on the suzu vs orb comparison, moiras orb allows her to heal off forms of continuous damage like soldiers pulse rifle but does nothing to counter burst damage like almost any headshot, or high damage projectile like junkrat, pharah, mei etc. Suzu lets you avoid both, albeit for a shorter time but also cleanses any negative effects from cooldowns the enemy expends to try and kill you like hinder/hack to disable swift step, anti to disable self healing or allows you to dodge stuns like doom punch, hog hook, rein pin, ana sleep etc. none of which moira orb can do.
LMFAO THERE IS NO WAY YOU SAID HEALING STATION IS BETTER THAN ANY SUPPORT ABILITY IN THE GAME
Mccree's shot has insane fall off while kiriko's has none at all. Being able to remove all status effects + invincibility by just pressing a button, while being able to protect the whole team instead of zaryas bubble which is single target. We are really defending teleporting throught walls now, by just pressing a button? My god Kiriko mains have room temperature IQ.
At longer range mcree takes 7 shots to kill someone which is bigger than his revolver's capacity, meanwhile at the same range it takes 5 kunais and kiriko's kunai capacity is 15
(I tried this earlier)
Even compare this to other supports,
Brigitte for example has the shortest range as a support and has pitiful damage on her primary
The intellectual dishonesty is off the chart regarding hitboxes and suzu.
These takes are horrendous I love it when people desperately try to defend a character with a toothpick hit box, 2 get out of jail free cards, one that cleanses, makes you intangible, and bursts heals 80-110 health, and the other which lets you tp through walls enabling you to play w 0 risk! Who can also 2 shot in a second! And at the same time provide massive amounts of healing! And I love when blizzard decides to nerf zen/lw and instead buff her!! Yessss I love the balance ❤
You basically summed everything up in 3 lines goodjob
i dont know why he went on about how hard kunais are to hit? like dude looking at your gameplay ofc they would be hard to hit you are at sniping distance behind your entire team holding healing ofuda on ur tank and occasionally pressing E when you see his health outline go purple
if you actually tried to do smth yourself and not rely on pocketing mauga or a hog the entire season and actually went on a flank a few times you'd instantly realize the crazy value she gets with little to no risk
Stfu and cope, instead of complaining about a hero get better
Preach
This! Kiriko was only bad last season purely based on meta. Like Mercy mains aren't this delusional. She literally had to fight 3 hitscan (bastion/Bap/Illari) while fighting Sigma, the 1 out of like 3 characters that reliably shut her down. She was gonna be bad.
And I think she should stay that bad because her kit is extremely unhealthy and needs a rework. There is no excuse for her to exist as is rn.
@senyu_lolz4202 ur like bronze bro calm down
You didnt debunk his tracer hitbox picture. You were throwing your kuni at the ground which nullifies them. If tracer jumped that hitbox would work. The sides of the hitbox in the picture are also accurate.
Yeah I was thinking this …this is a bad faith argument also I had to stop listening to this man when he said soldier was broken 😂
Why the fuck would you jump as any fucking character in combat ?
I jump as roadhog all the time and sombra and hanzo and genji and torbjorn and mei i mean i could go on..
@@ravenpines
@@ravenpines environment? mf only plays on flat ground.
@@ravenpines you can actually avoid certain projectiles as that, or at least mitgate their damage. pharah's rockets, for example. if you predict it well, you can either avoid the rockets completely or only be inflicted splash damage by jumping sideways.
Kiriko rn is a stronger version of hanzo and genji mashed into one with healing and support healing passive. She is way too overpowered and needs a big nerf. Seeing the Amount of like to dislike ratio on this vid proves that most people who watched this video agree that she is OP.
15:40 That argument is disingenuous or a terrible choice. You choice mcass regular damage vs his 1 shot ult. immortality is the problem with suzu on every character. You'd rather had .5 secs to get behind cover for cas ult, be able to not get launched in the air from bob, eat a minimum of 1 bastion ult, cleanse ana grenade, every single dps and tank can easily do over 200 damage in a second with an ult or ability (minus ball maybe) and suzu tends to negate that entirely. For the love of god don't lie to yourself in believing you think kiri would be better with baps AOE heal over suzu.
Sidenote Kiri's win rate is lower because tanks are asking supports who never touch the character outside of this season play her.
@@Therealpiemaster123 agreed, winrates mean nothing when pickrate isn't factored in with it. Ana's pickrate is one of the highest which is why her winrate is so low compared to other supports. Brig had a low pickrate but had the highest winrate by far last season.
@@Therealpiemaster123and she’s picked almost every game which means that you have a lot of kiri v kiri matches which means her win rate isn’t 49% is more like 94% with only 6% of the time a kiriko loses to team without kiriko
I think the tracer is not getting critted because her hands are basicaly on head level. I'm guessing you're hitting her hands hitbox instead of head, pretty much like Kiri used to shield her head with her hands but that's just a guess
he's too close to her, if he stepped back the kunai would be able to level out more to her head while he's next to her the projectile needs to come out from her chest area and then it levels out to their head. otherwise it just look like she's shooting kunais through her mouth.
2:10
The thing about Ana's damage is that Ana herself has no way to get out of sticky situations due to her slow movement. Her abilities are very powerful but at least somewhat possible to play around if you take her down due to her lack of evasion.
Kiriko doing nearly as much as a Cassidy headshot while being able to teleport, cleanse herself and her teammates is just kinda wack. Nobody complains about Ana's damage because they can just as easily damage her back while Kiri has the tools to get away.
Btw Torbjorn headshot is also a projectile and deals 105, mind you it has an arching thingamajig too. Kiri's goes straight forward and does 15 more damage.
i have literally never laughed harder in my life than when i watched this video. the title should be "im a kiri player plz dont nerf a hero thats been s since her launch".
I main lucio/zen, Kiri was S tier when she launched only because of her ultimate, in pro play she was considered a mediocre hero with an insane ultimate. The entire meta comp at the time was literally just built around which heroes could abuse kiri's ultimate the best (+sojourn because she was in her own tier of broken), then they nerfed her ult down to more reasonable levels and she has been mid ever since then. She has consistently had one of the lowest support win rates in the game every single season since season 1/2. Certain people just cry and whine so loudly that everyone thinks she's broken when she just has an incredibly annoying design. She doesn't need nerfs or buffs, she needs a complete rework of her kit and hero identity.
"dropped his healing station, which is stronger than every support ability in the game"
I'm sorry, what?!
Also a better Suzu is immortality field. I have no idea why you didn't bring this up; please don't tell me this is another case of Support player gaslighting
1. Reaper's Wraith Form only works for him and do not provide burst healing
2. Genji's Deflect have blind spots, do not provide healing, non-projectiles ignores it, only works for him and do not cleanse anything.
3. Zarya is at the tank role, with bubbles that tank things. It is the only part of her kit.
Kiriko is at support role, with high damage potential with no falloff, high burst healing, high primary fire healing, insane ultimate, insane survivability, good mobility, free get-out-of-trouble cards, small hitbox and insane utility at once.
Smartest overwatch support main who definitely deserves to be in the rank he’s in
8:27 I don't really agree with you on this part. the reason he was aiming low at the ground was because kiriko is already a hard enough target to hit, so it would be more consistent to try and body shot her and helix rocket has a somewhat small hitbox but it has a tiny explosion that does damage so what he was trying to do was not land a direct helix rocket but to guarantee some degree of damage since again, kiriko is extremely hard to hit as if and throwing a helix rocket at their feet for the explosion damage is more consistent than aiming for a headshot. Of course he played that poorly but he had the right idea to kill kiriko but of course she throws kunai and wins the fight and at any time she could have just run away and come back for round 3 while the soldier had to fight for his life agaisnt a support
he wasn't pointing out that the rocket wasn't a direct hit, his point was that it's an ability that gets a good amount of aoe damage and you don't even have to land it, but if you do you get even more damage. yet metro is complaining about kiri's simple kit being too strong meanwhile the kit he was using is so much more forgiving and effective. like kiri doesn't get the same value if she doesn't land shots, especially headshots, she requires a lot more accuracy AND has the unreliability of being projectile too. but a soldier is complaining after being able to make stupid decisions and still get some value (killing sojourn) and die after being caught with half health, it wasn't like he got rolled by a lone support
@@yikes9944 He nearly killed the kiri twice over, kiri used both suzu and tp to live, the solider (metro) equally used his entire kit to also live, metro also played his cover and peeking angles as best as he could given the situation (e.g. flank gone wrong, have to figure out a potential way to survive), the fact the kiri initiated the duel, nearly died twice but lived both times, then the sojourn comes in and only dies because the sojourn engaged poorly + didn't have the aim to secure the kill alone, and then the kiri comes back after rehealing to full (enough tim had passed for it to be support passive healing to begin with and hits a 70 hp burst to get the final kill on metro, after missing so many shots earlier (25% kunai accuracy is quite bad for that close a range + soldier's hitbox being quite large), whereas 24% accuracy as solider on kiriko is good due to her tiny as heck hitbox (aiming at feet cus its more consistent) + using the splash aoe effect to trade damage for more consistency, just shows how a kiriko can play a situation quite badly, making a LOT of mistakes, but still get value because at any moment she can just escape without any downside/risk, and can just bet on an inconsistent way to kill over and over until it happens, whilst a hero like soldier has to play almost perfectly to even stand a chance in that situation. (and then the guy has the gall to call soldier broken, and healing station the most OP ability???) + soldier's one escape option has a large risk, it only buffs movement speed not a complete tp/fast individual motion that can throw off aim heavily, it's more than likely he was dead no matter where he ran + shouldn't have to play perfectly to stand a chance against someone playing so poorly.
@@yikes9944bro wat how can u defended that one shot is so much damage her shit is way more forgiving with two abilities to help u get out of a bad situation u put urself in
Aiming at the ground is a very common strategy when dueling characters like tracer or kiriko. They have a triangle like hit box, skinny at the top and wide at the bottom. Ur correct mr commenter
Kiriko is my least favorite hero design in the game. Blizzard was just like, lets make a cute anime girl and put her in supp, the girls and nerds will love it. Start off by giving her lock on heals, then an insanely strong utility, then giving her another get out of jail card, and a silent projectile that is deceptively very easy to use, one of the best ults in the game, and on top of that a wall climb and a tiny fucking hitbox.
She has way too much and people still complain that she is weak. Unreal
Trying to make an agreement for soldier being more forgivable than kiri is the stupidest thing anyone has said about ow in a long time. You are clearly bias
I don't agree with a lot said in the video, but the Suzu invulnerability take is probably the most criminal. The problem with invulnerability is that it exists in the first place, cause that means it can be used before AND after an opponent's threat.
In the case of Earthshatter, having only cleanse would mean you need to be positioned well enough to not get hit to get value of the ability. Having only invulnerability would mean timing it well and hitting all important teammates quick enough. Having both removes any need of timing, positioning, etc., it's just a "get out of jail free" card for your whole team on a 14s cd.
Yeah, I usually pop soldier field to survive headshot from noskill projectile spam...
oh nvm
Oh look Junkrat is doing Riptire, I should pop my healing field...
@@okami7847yo I’m getting nano bladed on can you drop the soldier healing pd rq
@@JaySingh-el5qu lmao
12:37 the kunai hitbox is so big it hits tracers chest before the head
heres the entire issue with kiriko:
shes unduelable
people try to duel her
they lose or she escapes
people complain about kiriko
honestly
maybe we should give swift step an extended cast time
Extended cast time or longer cooldown for sure. Suzu also shouldn't have an 80 burst heal unless it gets even lower invulnerability time. 60 burst heal at a baseline (so 90 with a cleansed effect) would be much more fair.
Edit: I see why my comment was perceived differently from what I meant, so I've edited it to show what I actually meant for the balance change. Just lowering the burst heal by 20.
@@kommandantkillcodecleanse is the whole point of the ability, just remove the healings and increase the cooldown to 18s
@@nxvaf4ir271 Invulnerability doesn't have to be the same thing as the cleansing of effects. I'm not saying for the invulnerability to be fully removed, just to be shortened if they're going to keep the burst heal at 80. Your suggestion, as the video points out, would make the ability only useful in niche situations, and would make it an overall worthless support cooldown unless the invulnerability period is close to Zarya's Bubbles.
@@kommandantkillcode I think the invulnerablity is much more frustrating for people to play against, like when you get a sick anti you're not upset that they got a zarya bubble or used a personal cleansing cd(reaper, Moira, Sombra, tracer, echo duo, zen, or mei) but for a lot of heoes it's annonying for them to just tank an ult or shot. Imo the heal is actually fine but it would be more tolerable if you could DMG through the heal and the compensation should be a lower XD it's boring to have so many characters with ultra strong high cd abilities which basically are used once in a fight. Also encouraging players to use it for the heal adds more decision making and makes it more baitable as you can force them to decide to let someone die or use it right before you want to use a cd.
Thing is, Overwatch isn't a duel game. So your point is moot.
Being strong in a 1v1 doesn't win games.
Besides, she's actually pretty bad at dueling. She has to use her abilities to escape.
Honestly this defense coming from a kiriko player (especially with that pfp like..) sounds very skewed in favor of kiriko. also your stats on the kiriko shots fired and hit are just wrong...?
i dont know why you just compared the stats from their first fight because i watched the clip many times and kiriko fired about 20 TOTAL shots (before and after TP) and i kid you not, SHE HIT **4** of them and thats considering one of them was at point blank range before she punched. So in reality she has an accuracy of about 19-20%. i know shes a projectile character but her accuracy is NOT better than metro's in the clip. Also one more thing, she had her TP off cooldown (i dont know if its a visual bug, but considering the amount of time that passed after TP it isnt) when she came back to finish the kill which means if she did manage to mess up killing him ANOTHER time she could just TP out again which is the main problem.
Its just annoying because her risk is so small in taking both of these engages. i dont really think her kunai dmg is the problem here because she is projectile and they are hard to hit but you have to be honest with yourself here, if you are a good kiriko you arent shooting them from range... you are going into their backline or right infront of them to get a better chance to hit the head and then just TP or suzu if it gets bad so it isnt AS hard to hit as you think. Her disengages are soo easy its like playing against old sombra, but unlike sombra she does more dmg at close range and can suzu entire ults on a cooldown. And all of this while having a TINY hitbox so take that into account when calculating metro's accuracy too.
The kiriko got a HUGE advantage in this fight even when she misses 4/20 of her kunai's, the kiriko in the clip also seems to be not very good at hitting them so if the player was even half decent metro would be dead if she just 2-3 more body shots or 1 more headshot possibly by sheer luck which is why this is a problem, how she can do so much dmg (at close range) with little to no risk. Remember: **NO RISK**
I really like your content and will continue to support it but this video is just not it.
Also i dont want to comment on your gameplay but from what i've seen you play support as a healer in alot of your gameplay even on kiriko and in this video (maybe because of mauga cuz he needs a lot of healing) and you might feel getting value from your suzu is very inconsistent and what not, but if you actually used your suzu aggressively and selfishly and went into the enemy back line or on an off angle or flank and used it in a duel or maybe against two ppl like both supports, there is a pretty high chance you can kill atleast one of them and even bait out cooldown like immortality and nade and sleep and then just TP out.
she gets a lot of value when shes actually aggressive and i think you dont realize that because you dont have that playstyle at all and think her kunais are supposed to be thrown like some super inconsistent long range sniper rifle or for "self defense".
Like, bro I hit read more button on your comment and a big wall of fuck off text just appeared like, Jesus. You're right but damn
Takes some bravery to post this with chest and keep it up
You’re the support player who says “gg tank diff” without ever switching to counter the enemy tank
Look it's not the fact it was a stupid play from metro, he was taking RISK 1v1 a support in the backline, kiriko has ZERO RISK, SHE CAN JUST TP AWAY, Any other support and he atleast has a chance to 1v1 them. That's the problem, and no matter how people twist that, kiriko has a lot risk to her kit when people engage on her REGARDLESS OF WHEN AND WHERE because she can TP AWAY
to be fair she has zero risk without swift step there she's with her team and hes solo balls deep in the enemy backline. metro was dead before the clip even started. even if he killed the kiri then what? its not like he can just walk past the Roadhog or the enemy spawn. he's acting surprised he died there like he wasn't a dead man walking, he should be happy he even got a pick and forced main cds
@@THECAMERON11 yeah for sure but before i watched this video i thought metro was the most brain damaged, delusional, undeserving high ranked player out there but this guy wrote his script so well in order to earn that spot for himself
there is no possibly maybe getting out, there was a Roadhog literally blocking the door to get out from spawn that he would have had to walk .5 meters in front of to get out lol. And there's no way he woulda been able to kill it before the kiri and sojourn respawned if he killed them. You literally see him peek the other people in the team earlier in the clip. He woulda just staggered himself harder, it's good he died there. I get how kirikos abilities work, I just think even without any of them he was dead there. I dont disagree the combination of everything kiri can do covers too much ground, but nothing in the clip proves that claim. He woulda died to literally any hero, and if the enemy team respected his angle at all he would have died even sooner. @@clayy5095
@@THECAMERON11. But even if they were fighting on point, the same thing happens, she can just tp away or cleanse herself during a 1v1, and yoir logic doesn't make sense to me, If he kills a support player in the backline and lives he gets a shit ton of value cause then he go behind and apply pressure and the enemy team is down a support, imagine if kiriko didn't tp away and he killed soujourn and kiriko. He would have had immense value, and might I add he kept a support away from the fight and killled a dps, affectively making a 3-4 on point for his team a massive advantage.
@@notster7114. Metro kept the attention of 2 enemy players in this clip; a support away from her team and secured a kill against a dps. Whatever your arguments are against metro he actually gave his team an advantage and your argument is literally "put yourself in a more advantageous spot to make up for the power gap between kiriko and soldier". Literally probing my point.
I don't think the Metro clip shows Soldier is forgiving. Even though he was extremely out of position the enemy team didn't punish him smartly Kiri and Sojourn went into it 1vs1 so his bad position didn't matter. Also, healing station is not a broken ability imo. In 1vs1 it's a great sustain tool but the fact it isn't mobile really hurts it as an ability, most of the time you gotta move away from it.
Soldier is a horrible hero in so many situations. They go anything that hard denys space (sigma, junkrat, or sigma widow, etc anything that is a huge threat) and its a map like circuit royale, nepal, Dorado attack, Havana attack,Watchpoint: Gibraltar attack, Hollywood, Numbani, Paraiso and many more if they do a comp like that and your on any of these maps, soldier is quite literally unplayable if your team doesn't help out. Theres 0 maps where any support is unplayable, Even most tanks are playable no matter the map. If you play enough soldier you will understand. So anyone saying soldier is forgiving or good in anyway is delusional. Especially if they play support. support role is the most forgiving thing in the world. Its so easy its not even funny
I agree, the comparison of aim accuracy = who played better is also quite stupid to me, the way metro played utilising cover/peeks very well, hitting a good amount of shots on kiriko (when her hitbox is the size of a stickbug), whilst also using the splash of his rockets to better secure burst damage on her, imo outside of aim improvements and simply not being behind the enemy lines in the first place, there was nothing he could of done better in the clip. The issue metro was showing I think was that kiriko can engage into very unmatched situations, aiming to get a lucky kill, and just get out at a moments notice with 0 repurcussion (tp is only ~6 sec long cd, its not something that metro forcing kiri to use is incredibly valuable to his team), the sojourn equally should of won the 1v1 duel but lost due to poor engagement and poor aim. However, it's still ridiculous that healing station is on a longer cd than suzu too. (and that suzu heals AND invul AND cleanses etc). overall utilising that clip to say "kiriko is not broken metro is just bad at aim" is an awful way to attempt to prove their point.
@@WorldKeepsSpinninyou're definitely gold lmao
@@niggachu420 top 500 every role but nice try
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin Nah bro, the slur username gaming warlord knows the game better than you. You MUST be gold, cause he said so?! (He's plat).
About the metro clip:
- Firing helix into the ground is literally how you use it. You said it yourself - hitting projectiles is hard. Shooting their feet is way more reliable and guaranteed damage, specially up against one of the tiniest hit boxes in the game (you often do the same thing with pharah rockets too, as no one is hitting direct shots every time).
- It's way easier to have over 25% in a normal match with a mass of enemy players and a big meatball tank you farm all game than 1v1ing, I repeat, one of the tiniest hitboxes in the game. Saying "You have over 25% accuracy, you're better than metro" is not how the game works. You could sit there with 60% accuracy, nailing the enemy orisa all game - you're not really doing anything. 30k damage that only got converted into 5 kill is kind of worthless. Do a series of 1v1s against kirikos, then you can start comparing accuracies to the 24% of the clip. I'm not saying that you can't do better or that metro is an unmatched god, I'm saying the comparison was not fair or realistic.
- I think you're overselling soldier. He's good in 1v1s and a decent all around-er. But you know how it goes. Jack of all traits, master of none. ESPECIALLY in high rank lobbies. Check the top 500 leaderboard. He's there, for sure. Tracer and Soujorn are just twice as much. He gets nerfed every now and then because it's clear they have been balancing focusing on the lower ranks and he's a lower skill floor hero that therefore becomes proportionally stronger in comparison to stuff like soujorn the lower you go in the ladder. But even in bronze, there are many easier heroes that outshine him.
- 50% movement boost with a 0 second cooldown, but he can't shoot while he does it, he's built like a box and is double the size of kiriko. Saying her hitbox is larger than it appears changes nothing, that is the case for literally every hero. You gotta compare the real hitbox of kiriko with the real hitbox of other heroes, not the real hitbox of kiriko with the apparent hit boxes of other heroes. Also, don't underestimate how relevant they are to hero balance, just a few weeks ago they tuned Mauga's hit box when he was deemed too easy to kill, for example.
- When people complain about kunai being easy to hit (which I don't even necessarily agree with, but whatever), it's a projectile size issue, not a hitbox issue. A hero has their hitbox and that's it, unless it gets balance changes like they sometimes do. Similarly, every heroes' attacks has their specific projectile size, be it projectile or hitscan (I know it's weird to think of projectile size in hitscan/beams, but it is a thing. It just basically makes the point that you gotta put on a heroes hitbox to do damage larger, and therefore easier to intersect. Best example of this is Moira's ult - it's a beam, so technically hitscan, and the projectile size is massive, so it's very easy to aim with even compared to other beams). A recent and relevant example of how much this matters is launch illari vs. current illari. Before they massively reduced her projectile size, even a player with a severe case of main tank aim like myself could easily two tap people out of the game. It's much more skillful to do so now.
Metro is fully right tho in the aspect of kirkio is far to easy to live on and dont forget this is a support shes not meant to have absurd dmg, the tp and immune and a pretty much get out of jail free card
he was in their backline LMFAOOO
If you as a dps is dueling a kiri and she uses both cds without killing you, she has no utility for the next teamfight and you'll probably have yours back in the next few seconds. It doesn't feel rewarding to bait out cds but it's very impactful on the outcome of the game.
@@lavalordYTin that clip he died which takes him out of the fight for like 20 sec while she almost has her cooldowns back
@@inkwebyou’re supposed to take those off angles on soldier to stall third point and force them to peel. it wastes time off the clock.
@@kamthescholar its not you're "supposed to" its a risk you take for greater value, im not saying i completely agree with ameratsu but taking this risk and than failing so miserably is a bad play, however he didnt even fail he got his value and got killed by kiriko a trade where he wins anyway
"What can I say except delete this" * insert cursed image of Mauga mixed with Maui *
I was just told that this guy was hard stuck platinum in Overwatch 1 and due to rank inflation and all of the other fun bits about Overwatch 2 competitive, he shot up the ranks to top 500. Danteh really was right when he said it support is the strongest role with the weakest players
The problem is the damage, escape, healing, immortality, mobility all wrapped together. She just has everything and can do it all from a safe range inside her team.
And you shit talking Metro is only because you probably don't like him. He played good. Killed a dps, and forced Kiri to use both her broken ass abilities.
so the reason that youre not headshotting the tracer in practice range is because the projectile is massive and hitting her chest before it would be able to crit.
She's not even aiming close to her head xd
And he’s not even actually aiming for a head💀
Actually its so massive that it's hitting her arms reaching out before her head, this video is either a troll or this dude is massively boosted by Kiriko to be able to reach Top 500
You took this L in stride my dude. Hope the devs see this and realize they shouldn’t be listening to players with takes like yours.
I'm so glad I came here and saw you get dragged completely by actual good players. Keep coping support mains
Glad another comment reminded me but complaining about soldier is WILD even if it was just a comparison to prove a point. So is using something like a win rate or percentages to judge how good or bad a character is. That’s something the devs do and it’s something that needs to stop. Stats don’t give the full story.
personally, i don't think kiriko should be able to two tap dps, but that doesn't happen often in low elo so we should just let the gm's suffer on that one
I'm in doubt about this.
Should support be able to two taps someone? Should this be exclusive for dps? Should tanks also be able to do that? Just like doom or sigma.
A support having that power sounds strange to me, but we have literally insta kill heroes.
@@Aeni13 there should be drawbacks if you can do another roles jobs like zen, zen does tons of damage but only has kick and discord as defences, while kiri she has busted cool downs such as teleport, suzu, and wall run with high damage potential so there's almost no drawback to her kit its impossible to kill a kiri in 1v1 is you're somewhat evenly matched
@@callmeacutekitten8106 I think bap should have those drawbacks too, but yes.
The only problem here is that Blizzard refuses to test it out. I really think her tp and wall climb are completly fine, but if they just test changes on how her damage and suzu works, maybe there wouldn't be so much problem.
@@Aeni13 bap and anna should have a rework or a change to their abilities specifically lamp and anti so it can be less obnoxious and can use it more in the fight
@@callmeacutekitten8106also bap needs a cd on his jump you should not get that much vertical mobility with no drawbacks
Remember when Cassidy used to be the duelist guy?
I love how in your tangent on why its okay that kiri can 2 shot from 150m but widow can't, you talk about it being "unpredictable" but completely avoid the fact that it's NOT unpredictable when what you're throwing kunai down is a choke the enemy team is most CERTAINLY running down...
Not to mention, when you're just throwing kunai by pure chance you're going to hit your knives. As a matter of fact, your breakdown of Metro's clip showed that.
What a horrendous argument...
Also smart to ONLY shoot at the tracer's feet and show no clips of you shooting at where he drew the border around her head... Weird. Convenient...
Btw, her kunai prejectile is OBJECTIVELY larger than many other projectiles in the game, to include heroes like Hanzo.
3:22 you ignored the fast movement speed in this game. Spamming projectiles is always easy to hit regardless if its at a choke or not. Hitscan with dmg fall off plus the healing on the enemy team = no dmg dealt. Even headshot feels extremely underwhelming, Im not rewarded for my precise aim and its not fun.
4:22 just spam it on the head height, you win duels with widow at least 90% of the time. I dont know what you expect from a hitscan, but theres no way you always get instant headshoted when you peak with overwatch movement speed.
I dont personally like metro as a person, but hes got a point and its absolutely correct from a shooter stand point, you win you lose because of your aim, your movement, not because of some stupid abilities. Its easy to fix this problem, just dont call it FPS anymore, cuz it is a first person moba.
You talked about cd cd, but if you really come from fps background youll know and agree ow2 is a shooter wannabe, height and aim are what makes or breaks a fight in a shooter, not abilities.
This video instantly goes into vod review mode of what soldier did wrong given huge current state of the game, which completely miss the point of the clip in my opinion.
Nah fuck kiri, supports shouldn't be that. Lucio can do the same thing, but no one is complaining about him cuz he's abilities are not as powerful as kiri's.
Now remake this video where you arent reading a blizzard script and getting paid for this bait bs that not a single person agrees with
It doesn't matter he is making tons of mistakes, he is taking risk being there kiriko is not taking any risk. Having 2 escape abilities on your kit is absolutely ridiculous and I don't why anyone is ever going to try and make an argument otherwise. I have gotten GM1 on Kiriko and GM1 on mauga yet I'm master 3 on dps, because mauga and kiriko are insanely broken and reward me way to much than other heroes
Eh she has a 3rd and it is a passive, called wall climb, it has no cooldown either...
maugas been in comp for like 3 days wdym you got gm1 on mauga?? what were you before? gm2?
Hiya! I think your accuracy comparison is a little bad faith. Kiriko has a ridiculous hitbox for hit scan and as you said, projectiles make hitboxes feel much larger because of the projectile size and the way it travels. But that is another point that works to reinforce metros claim. This make your accuracy comparison feel really bad. Kiriko had 1% better accuracy dueling a larger, hit scan character.
I also believe you poisoned the well when it comes to the conversation of suzu. Intangibility alone as you mentioned is almost useless (it can be used to counter some ulti's or give a person a small amount of time to turn a fight but meh). But when intangibility is on top of a cleanse, AOE, AND 110 heal (or 70) it just feels like an overloaded ability. The zarya comparison is interesting but kiriko cares much less about line of sight and has the ability to suzu and immediately start healing them. I dislike how when you spoke about suzu you took parts of suzu and compared to them other abilities when you have to look at the ability as a whole. Sure reapers phase out is a better get out tool but its personal, non-AoE and can't actually keep a fight going.
For disclaimer: This was the dirst time i had heard of metro. I am also bronze so if you want to disregard everything i said go nuts :)
Bro look at his profile picture he wasn't necessarily hiding his bias
@@comedyman2817 You can have a bias without making bad faith arguments.
Most of your points are reasonably fair but you seem to be implying hitscan is harder to hit than projectile or something?
"Kiri has a ridiculous hitbox for hitscan"? "[Only] 1% higher accuracy than a hitscan hero"?
Hitscan is much easier to hit than proj. She doesn't have a hard hitbox for hitscan specifically, and the fact she had a higher accuracy in that duel despite being proj is to her credit.
@@Nyxtia the percentage is deceitful at best soldier has double the firing speed meaning double the chances to miss along with his damage needing to be continuous while kiriko had sojourn do most of the damage
@@comedyman2817 bruh it's double the chances to hit too lmao what is this logic. Also rof has nothing to do with hitscan vs proj. And yes Soju did most of the damage, again nothing to do with hitscan vs proj though.
Saying Kiriko hitting multiple headshots consecutively is unrealistic has to be the most tonedeaf thing I've heard this week.
I mean ofcourse if they're standing still or aiming down as widow or ana it's gonna be easy but hitting a moving target in the head two times in a row is unrealistic
@@FairwellNoobpeople can still do it sometimes
@FairwellNoob Maybe for you. I'm ass and it isn't hard.
Depends on the rank, if you say youre bad the people you play with are also bad@@justsatan6747
@@FairwellNoob have you ever played kiri because its not hard at all you literally dont even need to aim just put crosshair at head and shoot, if they're a+d strafing it'll headshot every time, if they crouch spam sometimes the projectile hitbox will just bug out and hit them anyway even if it shouldnt, and if they're better at movement than that then you should be better at aiming than that
Support as a class is incredibly strong for countless reasons but defending Kiriko is just a losing battle, her kit plays like blizzard didn’t even know their game was played competitively. Ever since ow2 launched, the game has been getting more and more boring, with support power creep like crazy, dps players don’t have an impact (maybe one shots), and tank is miserable. I just think kirikos Suzu should either be single target, or have a longer cooldown. Immorality abilities as a whole are pretty lame. 17:39 also I disagree with this Genji slander, genjis defensive ability is fine because it has counter play (just don’t shoot at him lmao).
bro, as a support main you don't even need to aim kunais
just throw a bunch at head level and 1 of them is bound to headshot and do like a bajillion damage
In what world does this work girl????
@@letsgo1572 Dude I never ever play Kiri, but when I do, I get head shots all the time. I'm not flexing, it's just that easy with her projectile size.
Cannot wait for this guy to double down on everything hes saying in this video when certain people react to this, I really wish this was bait I just know this guy got t500 in past 2 seasons with a sub50 wr, anyone with a background in gm or top 500 can see the value in wasting the opponents time in the metro clip
My opinion as a tank main.
Metro had a good point just had the wrong clip. Kiriko is very hard to punish as a character due to her very small hitbox and 2 abilities that just saves her. Her damage idrc about. Suzu is a broken ability like the fact it can just negate so many ultimates and you get it faster than every ult. I do not like to use win rates as proof to a argument. She has a low win rate maybe because she is somewhat new in the grand scheme. A lot of metal don't know how to play her and they pick her cause she might help. The win rate is a skill diff. In high ranks she is very strong. I hate anti and lamp aswell cause you know a tank main.
I have been playing kiriko alot this season cause honestly she does so much and yea she is very hard to kill.
Soldier is not a broken character he is pretty easy to punish even if his run is on 0 seconds. He can't shoot when he runs so. His rocket usually is shot at the ground cause it's harder to hit a direct. Pro players aim at the feet mainly with rocket sooooo.
Atm the state the game is eh. I stopped playing tank cause I hate the fact that many supports impact the game harder and causes unfun moments for tanks.
I’ll preface im a support main and tank 2nd. That being said supports don’t carry games as much as people say we more so enable our team to pop off. Mauga is the best example he can absolutely carry but only with the supports helping. Without it he gets melted and supports cant get a 2-3k every fight to hard carry like the consensus seems to be.
Low ranks can’t aim and just heal bot with her, so her winrate isn’t gonna ever be crazy like a truly braindead support’s would. But yeah as you climb kiri’s start doing way more
@@jsmooth8655 Supports carry the game what are you smokeing . Entire OW2 is build around supports they do basicly everything . Supports do dmg heal and have the most valued ults and abilitys how do they not carry basicly every game . Thats one of the support players bubbel thinking that there role isnt the only thing that kind of matter is OW2 right now .
@@jsmooth8655 i dont think thats a good example at all..? Mauga is a very strong and borderline OP character and he also NEEDS the healing so ofc you will be enabling him. its more like you are forced to enable him while hes also an extremely strong character rn so ofc he will pop off. likes its not hard to just hold m2 healing ofuda on him and just press E on him when you see his health bar get a purple outline and then he will just do all the work for you because hes that strong rn
Tank is miserable. I might just go to Val at this point I don’t care about the difference in skill I have between overwatch and Val at this point I’d rather be crawling in the trenches of bronze on Val than suffering on tank in the higher ranks on OW. Sometimes I wonder how you make a game this unenjoyable. Usually the fun in competitive games comes from winning and it’s like that for most games. But with overwatch it’s like an addiction, it sucks when you lose but when you win it doesn’t even feel good or enjoyable, it just feels like you’ve had some pressure relieved. I don’t even get any sense of accomplishment anymore from winning, every game feels like its out of my control. It really is impressive how stagnation leads to these levels of misery.
Ok bro you riding Kiri's shaft is ridiculous. Her having inconsistent damage doesn't mean it's not broken af for her to 2 tap. They need to make her headshots weaker but rework her in a way so she does more consistent damage. She's still the top 2 most broken supports in the game. You saying you used her in season 1 shows the kind of person you are
the same person that made a essay on how stats dont matter is talking about winrate
another support main (im guessing) that completely takes the metro clip out of context. the point isnt his positioning or what he was doing, its that a support hero can combat a dps hero, do similar if not more damage than a dps, all while having 1-2 get out of jail free cards, something that few dps have. As a kiri, i can frontline in the beginning of fights, get a stupid 2 tap, and tp out the second i feel pressure. No risk, all of the reward to be gained. Something only supports can have.
I'm not disagreeing with the video in general but I just want to point out at 8:09 Metro shot the ground near her legs because it's easier/ more consistent to hit Kiriko's legs compared to her main body/ head and isn't that uncommon at high level play. You can see the same thing done with Tracer at a high level as well.
Also in my opinion, I just don't think it should be invulnerability. Maybe some overhealth given, but an entire cooldown blocking a high dmg ult for a team just irks me. Like Zen and Lucio counter ults makes sense because well they're ults. So I will like make it a lower cooldown and maybe buff it's healing and make it give 50ish overhealth.
Edit: When I said high level, I didn't mean that as an insult though I understand it could come off like that. Also i'm not trying to say Amaterasu is wrong or anything just giving my 2 cents.
Kiriko is the result of a poorly thought out hero because Blizz wanted to force more counterplay to Anti, so they came up with Suzu and that became her identity. It's also what she's mostly balanced around. Now we have an ability that is honestly way too strong, but can't be nerfed much because the rest of her kit also can't be buffed without:
1) Her DPS being too much
2) Her ULT being too strong
3) Her Survivability (in TP) cooldown being too low.
She suffers from the issue Cassidy has with his new nade. He's balanced around it, and it can't be nerfed too much (which it has) because then the rest of his base kit has to be buffed, but can't be buffed too much without him being oppressive in that regard (which is why they reduced his range and haven't buffed his base kit despite the nerfs to nade). So instead, his nade got nerfed 3 times in a row, they tried compensation buffs (that weren't to his base kit - as a DPS who needs to deal damage and secure elims) that do almost nothing to try and "patch" the issue, and it didn't work and he's been left to need more attention and a possible rework - as noted by Blizz themselves.
Kiri SHOULD be on the same boat, especially when Bio Anti gets nerfed (because turns out trying to balance it through Kiriko as the counterpart was a horrible idea for an ability that was too overly oppressive and needed tunning anyway), Suzu will have to get more nerfs - likely its recent compensation burst heals buffs reverted - and especially because burst healing and damage will be going down. But that won't be enough to make Suzu "balanced," and Blizz doesn't want to nerf her and shaft her like Cass because she's a new hero, so they're dancing around the issue instead - stalling. I'm genuinely interested in how they plan to address these issues, if ever. Immorts (and it's more than just an immort in this case) have been a design problem to balance in OW for a long time, and even more in a 5v5 format. I honestly think that all forms of FULL immortality should go and the game would be healthier, especially when burst damage goes down, which means it'll be harder to secure elims, and you can't nerf *literal* immort relative to the damage nerfs without immort (by design of immortality) retaining more power - in short, immorts will only get relatively stronger when burst damage gets nerfed, even if they get nerfs as well. Though, immorts will likely never fully go beacuse that would require... more buffs and potential reworks.
They created a problem for themselves here. A fundamentals one. For Kiri, Suzu shouldn't do it all, but at the same time, without Suzu at its current state, what can you buff about her without her becoming too much? Buff her heals and that's heal creep, buff her damage and that's support damage creep (she becomes even more of an assassin), buff her ult and we remember how that went.k She's doomed, *by design* to have a "low" WR, and the only way to raise it without kit changes would be to make her overtuned, which I'm sure OW players will love.
Blizz wants a higher WR on her? She needs a rework. One that allows her to not be balanced around an over the top ability such as Suzu.
I think projectiles should have damage falloff, but only for headshots, and mainly in the support class, most of them are almost like a DPS with better escape abilities + self heal, it's really dumb
Bro you are a product of boosted supports in the past 2-3 seasons of support dominance. Your game knowledge respectfully is very mid Diamond at best. Go Samitos video that dropped today. You’ll see.
I agree with metro to some extent. Kiri can engage with decent damage potential, and can get out withoutbany issue. This is not somwthing a support should be able to do.
With high damage potential mobility needs to be sacraficed.
Samito absolutely rolled u in stream ! 😂
Winrate and pick rates mean nothing when a character is as super popular as Kiriko. The Metro Tweet is indeed a perfect example of what's wrong with the game, low effort, high impact, and rewarded for intentionally playing bad and playing in a way where you would normally get punished, except you don't.
metro is in their backline 2v1ing a sojourn and kiriko while their entire team is trying to cap yet still gets a kill, he hits almost no shots on the kiriko wastes all of his cds and still manages to get value what exactly is your point here
not to mention hes flanking on girbraltr on a point of the map where he has absolutley no way to get out, if you genuinley believe metro should be rewarded for running straight into their backline and get 2 picks and than continue back to the team fight i think you might be stupid
this is essentially going into the backline as widow in a giant open area with no cover firing 5 shots missing all of them and getting killed by a support, that is not an overwatch or support issue its literally just a positioning issue
@@inkweb Metro was dueling the Kiri first not the Sojourne, the Kiri could duel that Soilder without committing, miss her shots, take damage, and bail out whenever she wanted, then come back and win the fight. I'm not hearing it.
@@w_out7631 peak gold response
I wanna paste this argument that I typed for others using kiri's winrate to make a point just in case anyone else in here tries to do it (also because it was in the thumbnail)
bro I always hate when people just shout winrate to try to say that a character isn't blatantly fucking broken
If we go by that logic, sym is the best dps, brig is the best support, reinhardt is the 2nd best tank, bap ana and kiriko are bad, ball is better than dva and roadhog, hanzo and sombra are bad, and so on
You see how dumb that is? You don't look at winrates to determine if a character is good or not because they can change depending on other factors such as one tricks (people who can perform well despite their characters flaws), which rank plays them the most, how much they're played in general etc.
Instead, look at the characters value and see if they should be buffed or nerfed.
Kiriko has
-an invincibility and cleansing ability
-is near unkillable because she requieres you to fucking run around the whole map to kill her whenever you want to engage because of her teleport
-has the smallest hitbox in the game
-can 2 shot people with her primary fire with no falloff damage
-has one of the best ultimates in the game
-has healing that doesn't need to be aimed
-and even has a wallclimb to top it off and make her even more unkillable
She 100% deserves to recieve a nerf.
TLDR: Winrate doesn't 100% show whether a character is good or not and can be manipulated by many things, which makes it unreliable at best. Kiri is op and 100% deserves to be nerfed.
Edit: I forgot to mention, she also doesn't even have any counters. Except for mauga, but honestly I don't even see how she gets countered by him?
Yes he can apply a consistent burn affect that she can't cleanse, but you can also just not suzu the burn and use it on something else.
first off, yes, brig got nerfed because her winrate rate compared to her pickrate was very big in high ranks (tho this was honestly more of a consequence of Ana), and sombra was a niche pick before the rework.
you also can't show the toolkit and say it's broken because it sounds like a lot, was release lifeweaver OP for having 8 abilities?, obviously pure numbers don't mean OP or not, but you can't also say something is broken with no results.
@@hassanchapa6529 "yes brig got nerfed because her winrate". ok? That's not a good thing. It just shows that even the devs are now following this philosophy for some reason.
Yes, I can. I can 100% list the ups and downs of something and say whether or not it's good. That how you SHOULD balance things rather than relying on a stat that can be manipulated by many things. Cause really, are you gonna say that ana and bap are also not good because they have even LOWER winrates. The lifeweaver example gets completely stuffed when you also list the downs that he had (which were very present) and realize that Kiriko has no downs. She has all that stuff, and no downsides. I guess maybe she's not that great with poke and there are better options. But that's about it.
TLDR: The devs following that philosphy isn't a good thing. And it's not that "she has a lot of things" idk how you thought that. It's that she has too many good/great things about her with little to no downsides. Stop trying to say kiri isn't good by using a statistic that is inconsistent at best.
Your projectile argument is just completely wrong… compare mercy’s blaster and zens projectiles… you’ll see mercy’s blaster shots have a bigger hitbox
Edit: you also said Zaryas bubble is better than suzu… what? You are ignoring the fact that suzu can hit an entire team, while bubble is single target…
Another edit: you also said soldiers healing station is better than ANY support ability… yeah no this has to be a joke
The Kiriko battle if you can call it a battle...Metro was 55 HP...stupid to go into battle when you just used your healing station...
7:42 the rockets hit though. Seems disingenuous to not include it in the calculations.
14:36 no matter how long the invulnerability is its still op not to mention the healing and clense on top of it all
My guy how is it the healing station "stronger than any support ability in the game"? Sure it's strong for a DPS, but the character you're defending has an entire kit composed of abilities that are ALL significantly better than it.
I also like how he went on a whole tangent about Kiriko's hitbox not being _that_ bad, without even attempting to back up that claim with any evidence
Also, Kiriko is not underperforming. 49% is within range of meta related errors, she is very close to performing perfectly even.
Just a list of shockingly bad takes from a usually reasonable creator.
Win rate doesn't mean shit when you talk about a character's strength, R6's lion had a "low win rate" in ladder when he had a 100% ban rate in pro play, Tekken's Akuma is undisputed no.1 and has one of the lowest win rates online. Cooldown are way too fast, her suzu which grants cleanse, immortality, intagibility, 80-110 healing is only 15 seconds (soldier's healing is 18), why the fuck is reaper's tp 10 seconds while kiriko's is only 7? The cowboy's roll used to be EIGHT SECONDS LONG, in what world is his roll more valuable than swiftstep?
If people wanna talk about ridiculous supports, I think illari wins that competition, insane burst damage for a support, healing turret and mobility is insane. I think kiriko’s damage is very inconsistent for avg players
I don't find a lot of Illari in low ranks.
But man, it feels bad to face one as Tracer.
At least Kiri need to headshot me, but Illari...
@@Aeni13 You dont see alot becouse most of low elo players are on mercy or moira
@@xythiera7255 Yes, of course.
Even through, most low elo mercys try to rez everything 😭
@@Aeni13because it’s a relatively easy move to get off that gives a lot of reward because they can’t aim and her body distorts when she does res and you can get some things that should not happen and gives a bunch of value
tbf illari does not win it. her hitbox makes her easier to hit than kiriko and she doesnt really have a get out of jail like kiriko does where she can just tp on a 7 second cooldown or just suzu herself and heal to continue the fight. while illari's shift barely gets her out most of the time since shes still visible which is funny because swiftstep and illari's shift are BOTH on a 7 second cooldown. You should only really lose to an illari if she has her pylon down and its healing her in a duel but you CAN out dmg the healing its not that bad.
Invulnerability is way more useful than healing. It has the ability to negate whole ults on a small cooldown. There is no way you compared genji's deflect to it when beams can go through it and can be countered by simply not shooting him.
I would like to play Devil's Advocate for the soldier's accuracy bit of the video:
Soldier 76 fires way more shots than a Kiriko does per second, *with recoil*, making it harder to control where he wants to shoot. Also, the soldier is aiming at a character almost as small as Tracer who can deal almost as much damage as a Soldier rocket *if* she lands a headshot, give herself a cleanse and invincibility for a brief moment, and can teleport away from the fight scott-free. It's expected that a soldier isnt going to land at least half or more of his shots unless he's aiming at a bigger target, similar to Mauga and his average accuracy.
The soldier could have definitely hit more shots on Kiriko, but the reason why this is so viral and polarizing is because Kiriko can choose when to disengage and is safe to teleport most of the time when she does. Meanwhile, the soldier has to scramble to move and survive. I'm not supporting that he shouldve won that engagement, because his positioning was horrible since he was essentially doing a 1v2, but that's why people are complaining. It *feels* unfair because the Kiriko can essentally reset her end of the fight like a Tracer with recall.
The recoil is easily controllable, hitting consistent kunai crits isn't, I'd say the kunai hitboxes needs to be smaller but that's about it, idk why that one clip is getting glazed for, he baited their cooldowns, stalled a dps and support, if his team had a strong defense without him then his positioning shouldn't matter so much.
Solider gets the most value staying with his team anyways, the situation they were in wouldn't be any different if they went soujrn ana, soujrn bap, why do ppl only complain when it's kiriko, if ana was there, she would've fully negated his healing station and all he would have is cover, but by then both of then would be healed.
I think the biggest problem is that he was completely out of position, and attempting a 1v2 being in the enemy backline with no escape is very dumb
He is showing off his bad game play to shit on kiriko and look I don't even like kiriko but his video was trash
@@Memelord-md5hsthe thing people forget is that those 2 were also out of position, and ofc as it should sojourn and soldier died due to their positioning yet in the clip kiriko is able to get put scot free and come back and kill him
Luckily even mL7 himself said that kiriko is too op, but its always nice that people try to find ways to justify for how broken a character is, saying healing station from soldier is stronger than any support ability is just insanity, idk if some support players like u are playing a different game, but how is like roughly 200 healing over several seconds, stronger than a rez, a cleanse with immortality, immortality field, etc, that just doesnt make any sense at all, and then randomly talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the whole point of kiriko being op, but aight, also saying all hitboxes are the same on like the dps category or support caterogy, like are u even playing the game? but aight, apparently soldier is now busted bc he made a good play and kiriko has a get out of jail card every 7 seconds, damn
I think you're right about her damage not being the best, but the reason she's overtuned is that her damage is wrapped up with a teleporting get out of jail free card and another get out of jail free card for herself and her team. Yes, if you throw suzu at a poorly positioned teammate they can still die, but there are simply too many things shes decent-great at to be on one character.
I used to think making suzu just a cleanse/heal would make it useless but I recently changed my opinion bc obviously the burst heal would be good regardless but suzu as just a cleanse would negate something from 18 out of 39 heroes, that’s about half the cast and 8 of those 18 are ultimates, so cleanse w her burst healing she has now, I think it would actually be pretty alright
Yea but that would be a very boring and situational ability
@momdad1818 not when it would have a burst heal like I said, it really wouldn't be that situational, you can still burst heal and save ppl form a bunch of stuff, just not one shots
If they remove the Invulnerability, that would justify a lower cooldown, somewhere around 10 seconds for a cleanse. Sure, J.Queen's Ult would suffer for it but that's a discussion later down the line.
The widow example is so bad when you consider that kiri isn't at risk when peeking a widow "twice" because of three reasons:
1) widow has damage fall-off, kiriko doesn't
2) kiriko can cleanse to avoid and/or heal damage
3) widow takes longer to fire a shot than kiriko does
At least use some critical thinking when youre making videos like these.