The most important safety feature in motorcycling is the brain of the rider. I survived without any injuries 43 years riding motorbikes. For 42 years I had no "so called safety features" on board. Since I have ABS on my one year old T700, I appreciate it but still use, guess what... my brain
100% Your brain is more important than any safety feature. I rode with a guy that just bought a new Harley and asked me why I wear a full faced helmet. The reasons I gave him went in one ear and out the other even faster. I told my wife he won’t be riding long and he totaled the bike before his first payment. He’s lucky to be alive and I can only imagine how much his medical bills are
The only things I require on my motorcycles are standard motorcycle controls , Cable operated throttles ,standard clutch & gears ,& standard unlinked front & rear disc or drum brakes . I don’t want or need any cruise control ,traction control, slipper clutches ,blipper throttles or even ABS . An competent experienced rider with a full licence should be able to adjust their riding style & speeds to the conditions required for roads & weather . They should give us the choice & produce models without all the unnecessary expensive gadgets at reduced prices . The more gadgets the more to possibly go wrong in the middle of nowhere & leave the rider stranded .
Hi from Uk your spot on more tec doesn't mean riders can give up on building skills by the only way possible ride and practice never rely on tec makes riders complacent
It could also be that those of us that learned to ride on bikes with no safety features we learned the limits of the bike. With all of the current features you can ride faster and harder. When you exceed the limits of those features you're in real trouble.
Exactly. Same with the cars. But while driving Lada or such you were feeling when limits are coming. In Audi/BMW/whatever it's ok,ok,ok, CRASH because electronic assistants can keep only up to some level of driver stupidity. When they can't it's already too late to do anything. And motorcycles are becoming cars (one engine / frame shared between multiple platforms and so on) because of the cost saving.
@@puffybodie5282spot on, I rode bikes for 40 years, and yeah I've binned a couple of bikes in my time but only through my own stupidity and not using the 5 brain cells I had. I simply would not have bought a machine fitted with ABS, traction control and any other "safety aids" it takes away the skill of riding a bike or car.....if you need them you should give up using the roads.
Again pavlin you make total sense I've maintained ' increased speed equals increased risk ' ive found over the years by sticking around the speed limit ish i rarely have a problem with other drivers,to be honest its taken age and experience to realise this.
Excellent video Pavlin and I could not agree more. ADV motorcycles have gotten too heavy, too powerful, and too expensive. I think that too many riders are now jumping into the sport with their checkbooks wide open with the mindset that they can buy a bike that makes up for their lack of experience and skill, and the motorcycle manufacturers are helping them with this idea. The problem is that you can not trust the electronics with your life in all situations, over years of time. Riders need to go back to basics, learn to ride proficiently in the dirt on smaller machines, and then move up the displacement ladder to a point that makes sense based on desired speed and road miles for their trip plans. I like to ride mostly dirt these days and for that I find that I really only need 25 HP and a much lighter bike. It is a funny paradox that the big bikes have a ridiculous amount of power now and then they put an electronics package on top of that which basically reduces the power down to a more manageable level so why not just buy a less expensive, less powerful machine and spend more on gas and travel in the beginning and have a more reliable machine as a bonus? Good video, more riders need to understand that electronics can not make up for lack of basic skills.
I concur with Neil and Pavliv. The modern boondoggle of today's bike are wonderful in function but can be distractive as well. Often they dull your senses to the actual events; you loose your "feel" of the situation. There is a lot to be said for keeping things "simple". I've been riding for 50+ years starting with a 350 on the road and a 250 on the dirt. As time passed my skills improved and I progressed in displacement et al. Currently riding my 1st gen Hayabusa and 1st gen Weestrom. I don't like ABS in the dirt so I engineered an ON/OFF for it… Lots of mileage a la IBA.
Excellent video Pavlin. I, like many others, learnt to ride before there were any safety features. We learnt how to stop in an emergency, we learnt how to ride in slippery conditions (rain, snow and oil & diesel - vehicles weren't as "fluid-tight" as they are today), we learnt to ride in the dry and the wet. We then had to pass a test, usually in the rain, where we had to perform an emergency stop from 30 mph (50 km/h) without locking-up the wheels. After that we were able to learn to ride properly, not just to pass the motorcycle test 😁. I've had to perform emergency stops from speeds of 80 mph (130 km/h) in the wet and, once, from over 140 mph (225 km/h) in the dry without ABS (and no, I didn't need to change my underwear). We learnt how to understand the feedback the bike was giving us. We learnt to negotiate roundabouts in the wet which were covered in diesel. _All without _*_safety features_* I personally believe that new riders should learn the same way as we did - to control the bike without safety features. Bikes today are way more powerful, 500cc bikes when I started riding were considered very powerful and 750cc and above for professionals or idiots. On these more powerful, modern bikes, these safety features should be an option. For example, I've never used the safety features yet (and hope I never have to) on my 149 hp bike and on my commuter bike (49 hp), they are more of a hindrance than a help and in over about 200,000 km I've never had to use them.
1,000 % agree. The electronics cause newbies to ride over their head and teaches them to rely on the bike' systems. Causing more crashes due to lack skill.
Totally agree with you Pavlin. The first and by far most important safety issue is the pilot, his/her ability, experience and conciousness. The only electronic or mechanical gadgets that, in my opinion, are of some value are the ABS (not always you can avoid an accident just manouvering) and the slip clutch, which prevent blocking the rear wheel when downshifting.
You will see the same or higher rates in auto accidents right after seatbelts were mandatory. Does that mean cars are less safe? No. It means likely that people feel more secure so they take more risks. It's not a new topic. The increased power, I would think has more to do with it. In 1987 my GPZ 750 had about 60 HP and a modern 600 can have 100+. The statistics you are missing is the breakdown of which type of bike is involved. It's important to properly parse the data. Lots of studies on this very subject. As always good video, even when we don't agree exactly. Cheers!
Hi Pailin, I fully agree with you. I grew up on the farm and started off with enduro/ dirt bikes, which gave me the opportunity to fall and learn (not on the main roads). That afforded me the opportunity to learn, and develop my skills and large motor skills such as balance and judgement. I haven’t been riding for many years, and wish to start once again, but because of previous experience I realise that I need to be cautious. I grew up without all these safety features, and it reminds me of the modern era in construction where management believes that if that force employees to wear all the PPE, they wouldn’t get injured..we all know that’s not how it works. IMO the same rules apply to riding a bike.
Reminds me of my old Dad's idea: "Take all the safety stuff out of cars. And put a 2 foot long metal spike in the middle of the steering wheel - BOOM - overnight no more accidents!"
I do agree with the point, i sometimes turn off the ABS and traction control on my R1250GS to feel the bike. But i disagree on the views of the statistics, because its missing a big game changer and big danger for the bikers, the climb of a car drivers that use mobile phones while they drive. You look at the 1991 or 2005 when there was none of the mobile phones in hands of car drivers
My old bikes included a CB550, GS650 and XTZ750. I rode them in all weathers including snow and often in sub zero temperatures, commuting and touring. On simple machines like those, one develops a very intimate and of course essential sensitivity to road surface conditions and one quickly learns to ride accordingly.
I generally agree, I grew up riding off road bikes with no rider aids, so learnt the hard way how to brake to the limits of grip, and can control the traction of the rear wheel with my right hand. In fact ABS can be dangerous off road. Having said that, on the road I would still have ABS given the choice just in case I'm not on "top form" one day, it might help you out.
I still think the safety features are a net positive… there are many more factors such as mobile phones, increasing size of bikes, aging boomers,etc. plus it was hard to see how if the overall accident rate was dropping over time. There certainly a lot more bikes on the road. In any case, without these features we would probably see far more accidents and far more fatalities, everything else being held equal. I know for myself I have had my abs save me when someone cut right In front of me and then came to a stop. I know the abs out performed what I could have done in braking and in another incident my traction control helped me avoid a collision when I swerved very aggressively to avoid a deer. I was braking hard and swerving and both systems kicked in. I am not in the statistics because I avoided the crashes! I would also point out that similar arguments were made about abs on cars decades ago.. people made similar arguments that a good driver could out perform them or they make people take more chances, etc.. those arguments are long in the past.. insurance companies will tell you these have greatly improved safety.
As I said I always question and doubt on everything that comes from main stream media or it is regulated by authorities. It is not always in our favor. The last great example that I can give you was the coronavirus and lock downs.
You are right on. I ride alone, today riding in groups is super dangerous. I have no abs and and never ride with a group. Trust only yourself your skill and come home alive
Good vid. Pav. Safe motorcycle riding cannot be stressed enough. Knowing myself,knowing my bike.Understanding my riding ability & how I'm feeling.The weather,tyres etc.all play a part in staying alive. Too many young riders die because they are not fully aware.
In 1990 there were way less cars and also NO MOBILE PHONES therefore WAY LESS DISTRACTIONS for car drivers. A lot of them accidents are caused by car drivers which result to minor accidents for them but not so for motorcycle riders. Also, cars have become bigger and heavier, making it harder to stop but also protect their passengers but not what they are crashing against. Of course you are right to say that motorcycle riders have become less capable and less aware and respectful of the power they hold.
As someone now 61 and after a life time around bikes and cars as a rider starting as a little tacker at 5 and driving tractors at 9 and my years since my late teens building both cars and bikes I’m still a big believer in KISS (keep it simple stupid) totally agree with you people today become to dependent on assist toys and have lost to much of their road or dirt craft skills. Even now when looking at any vehicle I’ll always look at the lack of bells and whistles as an advantage and will go for as pure or simple as I can get. As always great video and very sound advice. Thanks for sharing. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I had 2 actual traffic accidents in my life. In both cases I had to brake unexpectedly in a corner to avoid a car (both cases the cars fault and completely stupid and unexpected) In both cases I avoided the car, but I fell because I blocked the front brake. Cornering abs may have just saved me there… And I was a quite skilled national level motorcycle racer at the time. I knew how to brake. Doesn’t mean you’re wrong, just that there’s 2 sides to the it.
Truer words were never said. I learned to ride in 1982, on my brother’s Yamaha RD 350, on the back lawn… I knew that if I dropped his bike, it wouldn’t be the fall that would break my arm lol. I quickly learned about traction, power and breaking on a slippery surface. Still riding safely today.
One of the biggest problem is how many rider over rely on these safety features. For example ABS having started off riding when I was 15 when bikes didn't have ABS, I learned how to ride pre-ABS. Same with traction control. Since 2017 once a month I do a riding course at one of the local schools, which helps people get their 500cc plus license. I purposely use bike for this training that don't have ABS for my students. At the beginning what i've noticed is many are nervous of even scared riding a bike that doesn't have ABS, because they have been told it's dangerous. This of course is just not true. Over-reliance on technology is more dangerous. Common sense is safer. Of my 5 bikes only 3 of them have ABS and traction control, and I'm ok with both of these features. But, at no time do I think. ABS or traction control will save me from a sticky situation. That would be just dumb.
One point missing is that nowadays more people report accidents due to technology. Maybe in the past people used to report accidents only when they have injured people or fatalities. Usually data is not so simple to analyse.
28 years a federal safety inspector and accident investigator. Numbers don't lie. Things can change for the better. Throw the human being into the equation and you spoil the consequences of most all safety devices. The real answer they are only there because of the mistakes made by the operators. A do good scenario to save us from ourselves. I did a lot of fatal/injury investigations. There are almost no accidents in life. They are caused by actions of human beings. That said learn how to ride. Ride properly for the conditions, your own personal abilities, proper safety gear to minimize injury and use a machine you can control given the worst of the worst drivers and conditions that you are exposed to. Good job Pavlin.
Very good observation and yes there are a lot of people who think exactly like you. I was so happy when they brought out the 300 Hondas simple machines and all I really need. The other danger of safety features is them malfunctioning an leaving you stranded in the middle of nowhere.
I am 53. I have been riding motorcycles since my teens. To this day. I have never riden a motorcycle with ABS, etc. My 2019 Doul Sport has none. I adjust everything myself. Tires on up to my brain. I have had only one accident. Going slow around a corner and the valve stem tore away from the tube on my front tire. That was two years ago. Thanks for sharing.
If im being honest, I found my 1290's tech aids made up for more than a few of my shortcomings. That being said, i found my primary danger as a daily rider was people in cars
As you say, Pavlin, there is much marketing in the bike business. The best piano in the world won't make a Mozart out of you. Even with Usain Bolt's shoes I am still a lame duck ;-) Constant training (riding/fitness) and a sound mindset is most important in my opinion. I love that you question the industry's "stories". Günter/Nürnberg
The only relevant statistic is accident rate/fatalities per mile. Twice the miles with less than twice the number of fatalities is an improvement any which way you look at it. This being said a lot of safety features seem designed to gloss over the quite frankly extreme amount of horse power present in many bikes. When I was a kid a powerful car with a turbo 2.5-litre engine had 190 hp. Today you can easily find a bike with that power and you know….I mean, for me it’s too much and quite dangerous. I think you end up making the best point: don’t buy a bike so powerful you need electronics to keep you alive.
See vehicle miles for early years and you will see what I see. For example from 2007 to 2012, about the same miles and the same dead, even less without any systems. So the result is no improvement or turn in very bad direction!
@@motorcycleadventures Yes and the graph shows just that. A huge reduction in fatalities in about 07, a plateau thereafter and a marginal increase in 2020-2021. But as a measure of fatality/ridden mile 2021 is still far safer than the time before any safety features. FortNine made another statistical comparison and stated that the increase in fatalities in the past few years has come from 1400+ cc bikes. Highway tourers who put down serious miles and are usually ridden by older gentlemen. No amount of ABS or TC will stop you crashing if you fall asleep or you can’t react in time. Maybe radar cruise control could help in some cases (it works for cars) but I’m not sure I’d want it anyway.
@@903lew also increased number of vehicles on the road...the data is incomplete. OFC the 1st line of defense for a rider should be his brain...but we also cant react as fast as TC. Why cant we have both? brain and tech working together...for a safer ride.
@@Gh3cko I’m just not convinced its needed on all bikes (see above point about engine size from F9). If I owned a fire-breathing litre bike? Yeah, I’d take every aid I could get. But I ride a Tracer 700 with the same CP2 as Pavlin. I take it easy, I ride fairly slow. Do I really need to amortise the needs of those that have bigger bikes than I am interested in? I’m not sure. I wouldn’t avoid a bike with TC, IMUs or anything like that but I don’t see it as a plus for me.
The thing is, with safety regulations etc. required every new year, manufacturers are forced to add many electronic features, inevitably raising the purchase cost and reducing reliability. Unfortunately, the options available for 'simple' motorcycles are becoming increasingly scarce. However, I would choose ABS in any case. It is a top safety feature. As long as it doesn't activate, you know you're braking correctly.
Totally agree. I've been riding for over forty years, three decades were racing MX, enduro, road bikes and stunt riding. As a teen I learned to ride with garbage handed down tyres until later I could afford the luxury of proper tyres for each condition. Cutting fresh edges on old mx tyres for grip and stuck with whatever tyre was free, no luxury of soft med or hardpack tyre. My current KTM 890 has the abs removed and the traction control disabled, it stops better and provides way more feedback than the dulled down constant intervention of electronic aids. Claim what they want, a bike with abs, 50/50 tyres and abs is a poor combination off road, I have seen many riders have accidents because when the tyre lacked traction the abs intervention caused the bike to carry on rolling and they hit an immovable object. A better tyre for the conditions would have been the correct way to approach things. But doing multi surface riding with just one tyre is what most adv riders will encounter. Learning how to feel for traction rather than letting the gizmos doing it hide the true feedback would not give so many less experienced riders a false sense of ability, and they would ride more appropriately for the conditions. There are several studies by motoring institutes that confirm abs can be a hindrance and even counterproductive when used off road. I prefer zero and ride 365 days of the year in any condition. Even after decades on MX bikes, moving to stunting on tarmac and learning how to manipulate the front brake from three figure speeds in the wet, popping a rolling stoppie was worth more in skill set training than abs could have ever done for me. I'm not saying the aids don't have a place, but I'm sure glad I learned on machines without all the crap. Wheelies are another bone of contention and frowned upon and illegal in most places, they are may be considered show boating but are actually a bike control skill. I was once actually let off after being stopped for a slow wheelie because the two police officers started to argue. The second officer was a biker and defended me saying that he couldn't do what I did and said to the other officer to stop it, it was skill not a dangerous manoeuvre on a quiet dead end road 😎 There is a reason why nearly all of the top road racers and circuit racers have come from a trials or MX background - they possess the skills riding on tarmac with a digital controlled bike just doesn't teach you. Rider aids are there for manufacturers to comply with regulatory needs imposed by organisations that don't always work with all of the facts...
My story. Had BMW F650GS. 2006 year, ~37kw. Had it for 3 seasons. Traveled alone and with my girlfriend. It was fine, no problem even two up with side cases. Then decided that I need a BIGGER, more POWERFUL bike. Tried many (Africa Twin 1100, R1250GS, V-Strom 1000, Tracer 900, Transalp 750, Terere 700...). And well, I am comming back to 700-800cc territory. I do not need 1000+cc. 100-120km/h - comfortable speed. 130km/h - about my limit speed. ~140km/h - too fast for me. Feels like I can't control the situation at that speed. If something happens, I don't feel like I could react and avoid an accident. And it does not matter what bike it was: big Africa Twin 1100 with fancy modes or a smaller Tenere 700 with abs only. All of them feel the same - the faster you drive, the unsafer it gets. Thanks for video. Keep going. Drive safe.
I enjoy it with my 1998 Aprilia Pegaso and totally agree with you. I listen to "recognized" vloggers who, in the comparison test of motorcycles, consider a motorcycle to have a disadvantage of a 10" display compared to a 12" display... simply crazy and sad that these bloggers have such many followers
Great video Pavlin. All you need is thinking and scanning ahead plus traction control in your right wrist. I agree that the lighter and simpler the bike, the less problems you will have. DAve from Canada
That's a very clever flue system on your heating stove... I ride a 1988 Honda CBR600... no ABS, no slipper clutch, not quick shifter, no traction control. But then I got my first bike in 1962 so I learned when no such aids were available. A few years ago, I went on a riding refresher course and on the braking exercises I was out-braking the new bikes with ABS, even though the instructor actually required the non-ABS bikes to have more available distance. So yea I agree with you. I think that those aids, useful as they can be especially on 'dodgy' surfaces tend to be relied upon by those that know nothing else, and that in turn results in such riders more often getting ahead of their skill level and coming to grief.
You're so right Pavlin, because of todays safety features riders are riding faster because they're relying too much on said features to get them out of trouble. My first big bike was the '89 BMW K100LT , the first bike model fitted with ABS as standard (fromm '88). I didn't tho' buyit because of the ABS but purely because I thought itwas the best touring bike on the market. I never changed my riding style eitheras I still rode it as if it had non. A lot of bikers race around on their bikes unnecessarily, whether riding 1km or 100km because they think they are safer with all the gadgets instead of using them whilst riding normally in case of an emergency. Infact the bike I have now is 30years old and has no electronics not even ABS. I still ride WITHIN my capabilities and not let the bike take me for a ride. Ride safe Pavlin.
Traction Control and ABS worked amazingly on my old KTM. Now on the T7 the ABS is really slow and clunky. I prefer if my bike has good electronics than bad ones that you still have to turn off all the time.
I don't need safety features or rider aids, which is why I purchased a base model KLR last year. I would have bought a Suzuki DR650, but the KLR was actually cheaper.
Hi Pavlin, The only thing I would add to what you said on this topic, with which I agree completly, is that modern (new) motorcycles have besides weight, power, systems, etc. is speed. This is what raises the % on deaths # and lowers it for the injured. All the best from Romania from a fellow T7 happy owner, Matei
Cars are getting really dangerous due to all the so-called safety features. I can only imagine how much more dangerous a new bike is with all these gadgets that take your control away.
Everything is so true. Anyway I would like to make an additional remark: There is much more traffic and the drivers are worse and worse. Why? They don´t learn to drive bit rely on the cars saftey systems. And they are distracted by the entertainment and large displays in the car. Besides, windows in modern car design are much smaller than 20 years ago. But after all it is us who drive sensibel and carefully
Riding 40 yrs. Kick start 1953 BMW. Agree. Excess speed kills. Helmet,gloves, leathers, boots,maintenance, and humble common sense are the best safety aids I know.
Same is happening with cars. In some parts of the world, fatality rate is rising even though cars are 5 star safety with ten airbags. The common denominator is the idiot in control 😅
Ooh but you are so right ;) Riding tractors in the country side in Iceland growing up from 11-15years old teaches you the most about what works ant what doesn´t... :) - good times, good times :)
Riding skills and the right mind set are 100% more important than electric assistance. I test rode one of the new Triumph 1200s and spent the majority of the ride trying to switch off the different assists. The anti stall was the most annoying, never got the ABS to trigger because I have a pretty good level of brake control.
and again i agree a 100 percent buddy. When i started motorcycling in the 70´s nobody even dreamed of the actuell technology to protect ourselves from our stupitidy. We learned it the hard way, or (a bit more intelligent) by listening to the elder bikers. I grow up with tyres that had the grip of an Iceblock on wet soap. Frames and suspension were a bad joke comparing to the the bikes in our days. So we had to learn that our brain is the ABS and TC and what ever. Don´t get me wrong, i apreciate modern technology , but if this technology needs to engage, you did something wrong before.
I've never had the front wheel ABS activate on my BMW, and the rear wheel mostly only when I've deliberately activated it. But the traction control has kicked in a couple times. I've never crashed due to a loss of rear wheel traction under power, though, in 30 years of driving. I learned how to play with rear wheel traction and what to do if I lost it. But my 2008 BMW, which i bought in 2019, is the first bike I've owned that had either of these features.
I get where you are coming from and I think in parts you are correct, but to me, you are drawing a lot of conlusion from one study. There are a lot of unkown variables which are hard to judge imho
There are many studies that shows more or less the same, but as I said in the video, I rely mostly on my personal experience and everything that I have seen with my own eyes.
@motorcycleadventures Yes, but your experiences are inherently biased. If I just look at my experiences, rider aids are a good thing. I think it's not hard to believe that a bike ridden the same way, is safer with than without safety systems. If the rider changes his riding because he has safety systems, is up to the rider. It's the same discussion with bicycle helmets or you could even make the same argument for motorcycle helmets. (By the way I am riding with helmet and all gear, but without abs 😉)
Pavlin, U R 100% right. The young kids, and 60% or more of adults, do not and don't want to understand these simple things you are explaining. They believe in the marketing magician. My parents were traveling in the old days with the NSU 250, 19HP all over former Yugoslavia having fun. Presently I have a Tenere 700 and an old tenere 600. To be honest the old one would be more than OK 4 my riding & traveling style. Well , I am not perfect 2 .... lol
We blame things like mobile phones for accidents and the like, but things like abs give a false sense of security on car's and motorbikes i reckon sometimes a huge spike in the steering wheel ready to stab you when you a cockup means pay more attention
I use my cruise control for the 50mph average speed camera zones as it allows more eyes on the road than on the Speedo. Unfortunately mine doesn't work at 20mph, the speed at which it would be most useful 😢
Many people are paying a lot of money to buy all these fancy motorbikes-even many women....''I want to have this,i want to have that'' and etc,they say.I am an old fashioned guy.I am thinking to buy an old/used YAMAHA XTZ 750 SUPER TENERE.I think it suits me very well for start.
Electronic assistants make people feel more confident than their skill level allows, like having powerful bike which they can drive fast on a straight road, but automatically choked down during fast start and cornering errors. But no electro ic assistant can override laws of physics, so if, for example, you enter a turn with wrong speed and radius, nothing can save you. In my opinion, best use of electronic assistants comes when road conditions accidentally change, like when you enter a turn with bumpy asfalt, and rear wheel (already in lean) starts jumping - regularly encounter this in our city, and reducing the speed at last moment isn't always a best option due to cars behind.
It would also be interesting to see if there is a relationship between fatalities & type & capacity of bike. As someone also noted the distraction caused by mobile phones could be a factor. I enjoy your videos.
If you give up your freedom in the name of security, then you deserve & should have ether. Without ABS breaks I have the freedom to lock or not lock. I have a motorcycle for years thousands of miles i dragged the back tire once drum and cable breaks & I stopped extremely fast also hard front break pressure.
I'm a little different because I don't even have a smartphone, but for me a motorcycle has to look nice, sound good, be easy to service, and it has to have two wheels and an engine and be of good quality
I agree mostly with you but I’m not sure how useful US data is considering that wearing a helmet is not compulsory in every state (no insult to American friends, it’s your choice). A quick glance at UK motorcycle fatalities shows an average 551 deaths annually between 2004-2009 and an average 349 between 2010-2022 excluding the two pandemic years of 2020 and 2021 which were even lower (285 and 310). The official statistics show UK motorcycle mileage to have reduced 10 % between 2004-2022 but fatalities have reduced by over three times this number. It is very difficult to obtain a motorcycle license in the UK now leading to many fewer young people riding and this has contributed to the reduction in fatalities. I rode motorcycles for 20 years and then had a 20 year break. My motorcycle has ABS, the only other modern safety feature is that my engine cuts out if I try to ride off with my side stand down. In my first year of my return to riding my ABS activated three times, I’m not saying it saved me, but it definitely helped. My ABS has not activated for 5 years so hopefully this shows my riding has improved. My car has a blind spot warning on the mirrors, I would like this on a motorcycle but I don’t feel I need the other safety features you mentioned 🇬🇧
Imo it's the "safety features" on CARS that are the threat. Radars, lane assist, auto braking, blind spot cameras ect. All this tech is 100% training drivers to not pay attention.
Again Pavlin you get to the truth of the matter, and it's an important matter. Personally I don't like the intrusion of 'rider aids', rider modes etc, and much prefer to learn to ride the bike in one form. So many of these features fundamentally alter the bike, such that you have to adapt to a slightly different bike when you change modes or settings. Your reflexes cannot adapt to the essential machine if you keep changing the way it responds. I love my old 'analogue' bikes, but the reality is that the conspiracy of manufacturers and legislators has led us to having these 'features', whether we like it or not! I am over 7,000 kms on my new Transalp now, and really like the bike, but I find I am running up against its electronic 'features', particularly off-road, and it's annoying! I only ride it in one mode (Sport) - I bet most owners do -which minimises the intrusion of the electronic bollocks,, and keeps the bike consistently the same, but the traction control off-road is just silly, even in the first (minimal) setting. The rigmarole to switch it, and the rear wheel ABS, off (only for them to come back on after switching the bike off/on) is the major disappointment of the model to me. A great machine, spoiled by interfering nonsense that I didn't ask for. These features are no doubt well-intentioned, supposedly with safety in mind, but the fact that some are now legally required (ABS) is just wrong. We should have the choice. My 61 years of riding should permit me to not have this stuff on my bike. I bought it, and I ride it. Motorcycles were originally meant to cater to individuals... Many factors feed into the statistics you quote, like heavier traffic in later times, and of course far greater power outputs (and even more extreme weather to a degree) but I suspect much of the accident statistics, bike and car, which are worsening in so many parts of the world, are attributable to rider/driver ATTITUDE. There seems to me to be more belligerence and "let me in" mentality on the roads than when I was first riding (in the 1960s) and all the ABS and rider aids in the world will not change that. Manners are not considered as important now, apparently. Tyres, brakes and handling have all improved massively over the time period you refer to, yet more are dying on the roads. The proliferation of methamphetamines may play a part. I liken these trends to my car, which has the ability to park itself, but which I have never used (and never will). But you can't buy that model without this function, meaning we have to pay for all this extra tech, even when we don't want it, and never use it. The vehicles are more complicated, and computer controlled, but we have no choice in this, unlss we just stay with our older models, which of course become harder to maintain as they age. Try obtaining a new tacho cable for a 1995 Elefant... I suspect that these newer machines will suffer more from computer/electronic problems, while their mechanical parts will probably keep going. That is, these features could eventually be the downfall of the vehicle's reliability. The reality is my Transalp is a fine machine for the price, and has many advantages over my 28-year-old Cagiva Elefant, but I would gladly remove all the electronic nonsense from it if I could. (I still really enjoy my Ducati road bike, after 103k kms - one of the last to have none of this stuff). The false sense of security they provide newer riders is possibly more dangerous than the road situations they may encounter. LIke you, I feel modern riders have been 'sucked in' to a degree with this stuff, and all the weight and complexity they add to what should be a simple machine - a motorcycle. A bike with an engine. It is a great shame that legislation has gone along with this illusion of 'safety', when really the biggest safety feature is riding safely, and with consideration of others. Thank you for taking on 'the hard topics'. A voice of reason in a world going a bit mad! Loved your father's forecast for future children. Clearly he helped you to gain your wisdom.
Around 13 years ago I was a school bus driver and statistically school busses were the safest form of motorized transportation even safer than flying. The school busses #1 had NO PASENGER SEAT BELTS ./ #2 NO airbags / #3 NO ABS breaks/#4 NO traction control /#5 NO electric low tire warning light / #6 NO backup camera. But yet these school busses were the safest vehicles on the road statistically !!! ............. Tires on cars pickups & motorcycles are wider so as to have more stoping power in the NAME of SAFETY ¿ What are the benefits of wider tires ? you can stop faster and have more traction (except in standing water puddles easier to hydroplane lose traction). So , ¿ What are the negatives of wider tires ? Well they cost more $ / burn more gas $ because of extra weight & rolling resistance & drag / wear out engines & transmissions quicker $ because they require more horse power to turn / wear out all suspension parts quicker $. Ok all because of following vehicles to close & driving too fast for road conditions like curves ect. I like to go slower follow vehicles much farther x5 or x10 farther, & I like to buy reasonably the narrowest tire with factory original tire hight . I get better fuel mileage, And better mechanical performance for my driving habits safely . And better performance going through standing water puddles on the highway or freeway !!! People that follow too close or tailgate need the wider tires just to keep from constantly hitting the vehicles they tailgate !!!
@@motorcycleadventures I've watched your videos alot and there is tons of hard evidence that support most if not all of your opinions that are in your videos. So at some point a person's opinions can actually be proven as true fact but I very much appreciate you giving your opinions in a humble way and not being to hard on anyone but yet simply sharing things that have benefited you so we can all learn together. You have taught me alot , SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH , MY RIDES ARE SAFER AND MORE ENJOYABLE. I was already doing much of what you share before I found your videos. But now I practice as much of your advice as I reasonably Can . I ride a low mileage mint condition 1989 Honda NX 250cc water cooled 6 speed extremely light Motorcycle . Because of you I installed a simple USB charger to the battery that has a second plug to insert my extremely small Motorcycle battery trickle charger . That's it for electronics. I'm going to buy some flexible ez to remove saddle bags. .If the Honda NX 250cc had a 21"tall tire & stiffer rear spring ,I honestly believe if they still made the same Motorcycle today it would be your Motorcycle of choice. It just that light & rugged 75 miles per USA gallon top speed 85-90 mph So it has more power than needed. Very low maintenance requirements compared to almost any other models (I think not certain) . Oh it could have used a 4-5 gallon gas tank. Perfect around the world Motorcycle. But they quit making it & parts aren't all ways available oh well.
I'm not convinced you can blame motorcycle safety features on increasing fatality/accident rates, I could have missed this in your presentation but today roads are generally more congested and car drivers are looking at their screens and it seems drivers are increasing becoming more aggressive. I've never had cruise control on a bike but I could appreciate it on the long straight boring stretches to the fun roads. I would appreciate ABS on a dark and rainy night. as far as rider skills I think many jurisdictions require some rider training even in the USA now and of course it is up to us to practice those skills like the front brake muscle memory for when the moose steps out from the bush.
On statistic not mentioned is the percentage of type of motorcycle most deaths occur on.. my guess would be powerful sports bikes are at 90% of all motorcycle fatalities
No safety assistance works without properly trained/experienced rider/user. That said, an experienced rider can do without any allegedly ‚safety’ assistance. 🍻🇵🇱🇧🇬 Practice makes perfect.
I would like to see more emphasis on advanced rider training. I worry safety features run a risk of creating a false sense of security. For modern road conditions, the 2 most useful features are ABS and traction control. Are more features needed? Likely not. I winter ride a 2005 XL1000 Varadero, wet weight 283Kg, no ABS, no Traction, I'm still here to write this reply because I went through advanced rider training.
I think you missed one data in your equation, there is way more cars and in accident where motorbikes are involved, most of the time their is a car too. You’re right, the most important is brain but an ABS is basic and might save your ass when you make an emergency braking or road is suddenly slippery.
I recently bought a motorcycle and requested to have the non ABS model. The guy at the dealer Looked at me like I was crazy to me. All ABS does is make my bike less predictable, therefore less safe. I know how to use my brakes. I don't need the computer getting in the way.
But then again did the study take into account airbag vests? Something that wasnt a thing in the 20th century for the average rider. Better Safety clothing should reduce the injury rate
As we know all we are the customer in this capitalist world, system should invent more more things that we suppose it’s necessary. So may be this would stop development and I think conservatively but please let’s be honest, how many of person who use these all electronic equipments and how many of us get mad if can’t see tft screen and so many inessential information. Anyway thank you for this open minded and honest video
Look at the vehicle miles. It was more than double from 1990. It looks like you are massaging data to support your point of view. So the rate of fatalities for mile driven is actually lower in the last year reported vs 1990.
See vehicle miles for early years and you will see what I see. For example from 2007 to 2012, about the same miles and the same dead, even less without any systems.
@@motorcycleadventures so what year were most motorcycles sporting traction control abs? Stateside that seems like a more recent development. Some Bikes had ABS in 2012 but only the pricier stuff. Even today most bikes under 10k don't have traction control. ABS is pretty common now at most price ranges stateside. So really when did all these high tech bikes fill the roadways? Harley is still dominant in sales here. And they don't have fancy stuff. Is misleading without that detail. There is no question in my mind lean sensitive abs is a god send. That computer thinks faster and reacts faster than any human could end of story. I been riding over 30 years. I learned all the tricks. This new stuff is a game changer for safety in my mind. Even for experienced riders. That malarkey about reliability is ridiculous if your ABS stops working your motorcycle will still work you just won't have ABS and if your traction control stops working your motorcycle will still work you just won't have traction control.
I started riding with a CBR600 without any riding aid, and moved onto a crosstourer with abs and traction control. I do ride at very high speed when traffic condition allows..and touchwood... I had never encounter any situation where I need to use the ABS or traction control. Yes I love the excitement of riding at high speed, but I TRY never to put myself in situations I need riding aid to come to my rescue. Of course emergency situations may occur at any time, but I will always TRY to give myself good buffer zones to minimise potential risk as much as possible. How much buffer you may ask? I think that gonna depend on how much risk we are willing to take to push our skill and bike to its limits 😂 We don't buy accident insurances, with the intention of hoping we may use it right?😅 The eventual goal is to reach home safely.
Pavlin, I am really sorry but you disproved the thesis "numbers never lie". First, the dataset actually says the methodic changed in 2000 and 2020 so you shouldn't compare data before and after. It also take quite a time before safety features were common on bikes in the USA where the stats are from. It is not mandatory like in EU. Also, what parameter you compare is important. Choosing, as you do, number of deaths per X accidents look innocent. But what if there are two different kind of accidents (and this may be close to the truth): First group is when you fail to control your bike, you fall, you slide and maybe you hit something - or not. Second would be ones when you first hit an obstacle (e.g. a car who failed to yield) and only then possibly fall off your bike and get some secondary hits too. One would expect the 2nd group to have much death per accident ration but grouping them together hides that. Now what if you implement a perfect ABS on all bikes that modulates the brakes so that you stop in the shortest possible distance but have no risk of sliding. The first group will see much less accidents as now you cannot crash due to improper brake application, the second group will see a small decrease as people brake better but sometimes by the time rider realizes they should brake it is too late to do so, so it will be much less. Overall, you managed to mitigate some accidents thanks to the ABS but mostly non-fatal ones and your number of deaths per X accidents starts looking worse - even though you improved! Maybe the ones with per miles traveled is a better statistics - and that show a slight improvement although that may be a statistical error too.😂 I do second what many commentators say your brain is the most important safety organ. But for me the best explanation of the brain is not a single entity but something like a team or a small company. Your conscious, the top layer, is the boss. Sure, he can try to micromanage but that takes time - time you often don't have on a bike. So you need to train, train, train "the employees", i.e. the lower brain parts - and search for your mistakes so that you can learn. Rode 10 000 km and had no situations? Sadly, that may not be a cause for pride, luck might have played a role. You had to perform an emergency maneuver to avoid a car failing to yield? Learn how to look for those and what to do so that you don't have to do the maneuvers (and also train the maneuver so that you don't forget it now that you don't use it on the road). Activated a safety system? Another mistake, train to find the edge so that you can ride it yourself. That way, you will have multiple safety nets. They do break from time to time, that's why the more of them you have, the better.
I think since 1990 we have much more cars on the road with way worse drivers and whatever motorcycle you ride or gear you wear a motorcyclist will be always more volunerable on a lightest collision. I think that's why fatalities are climbing. But yes skills matters, I mean skills with no safety features. The most advanced safety feature on a motorcycle is you!
I am yet to be convinced that any level of electronic technology can make good human error or stupidity. I cannot see how any level of technology will allow you to defy the laws of physics, and A good operator with mediocre tools will still do a better job than a mediocre operator with top shelf tools.
One should not have any usage of safety features if driven appropriately, what ever the level of riding, but... just in case you screw up because of any reason than it's a mega plus. Between my Buell with absolutely no nothing and my Tiger with abs and stuff, I enjoy both, but I like the additional safety margin that comes with a modern bike
Why all this hate against safety features? And why all the ”road heroes” proving themselves to be the best rider ever without safety features? I don’t understand.
Great video and it appears to have some statistical research. No poo poo’s to that. However, the statistics do not show what occurred to create the accident and subsequent fatalities. For example, was another vehicle being operated while its driver was looking at their phone, which is another electronic devise.
Hey pavel got a question what do you think about mocycles airbag jeans I saw an add for them and was thinking about buying them any thoughts. Keep up the good work
@motorcycleadventures I am a new rider actually still in school in Germany so you know how long that is. So I have to get gear and would love to see the opinion of an expert rider And thanks for the reply
@@motorcycleadventures no if the number of bikes on the road increases the the number of accidents will increase as well. Not to mention the number of immature riders taking greater risks.
While I agree on your assertion that electronic rider aids contribute to lower skill riders I believe your correlation to less safe is deeply flawed because there are many many variables that contribute to the accident/fatality outcomes. For instance distracted drivers on their cell phones/devices surely cause more bad outcomes than electronic rider aids, often the distracted car driver causes accidents even though they aren't involved in the collision. Don't get ne wrong, I'm not pro or con on electronic rider aids although I prefer my bikes with no aids, neither of my bikes even have abs and that's how I want it, no ECU intervention for me thank you! I had a MT09sp all loaded up with that crap...sold it.
Yeah nice, Just leave out the Driven distance and your theorie seems finde as seen in 4:22 in lines 8-10 and 6 at the bottom of the sheet: the Accidents per 100 million driven Miles has been going down significantly.
This is the percentage of people who have been involved in accidents and died. It doesn't matter how many were on the road. If the number of people who were involved in accidents was double more, but the number of dead and injured people were the same, then your theory would be correct. We can only assume that because of the safety features, many did not crash and because of that they are not in the statistics, but we can also say that because of their skills, many riders from 1990 are not in the stats. That's why I only rely on the data that we have and on my personal experience.
I can push harder and drive more aggresively using latest electronics. Do I enjoy new motorcycles, tech packed, waaay more? Ohoo, suure, brother. Do I get myself drunk with tap water thinking I am a better rider? Hell, no. I know very well I`m average and that the credit goes a lot to the electronics. Do I totally change the approach when jumping over an oldschool bike? Yes, sir, of course I do. Increased no of fatalities? Maybe, Im not a stats expert. Problem is nobody likes the truth. Truth doesnt sell bikes. I agree and disagree with you. Electronics are the best thing that happened in my motorcyclist life. Been around for 22 years and Im really happy about the constant progress. Not the technological progress kills people. The marketing and the young riders` lack of experience and ignorance kills them.
As one of my professors used to say, "Statistics is the precise sum of inaccurate data." What the statistics you're referring to fail to show is the number of other vehicles, the number of registered motorcycles. And of course, the most crucial data is missing: how many accidents have been avoided because some safety system did its job? And again, you emphasize as if safety equipment is the reason people don't learn to drive? Safety equipment is there to correct a mistake or to signal a mistake, not to drive instead of you. How could you categorize cruise control as safety equipment? In any case, having a seatbelt in a car and not using it because you think you will learn to drive better, or having ABS and thinking you won't learn how to brake, is absurd. Today, it is impossible to teach young people to drive in vehicles without ABS or traction control systems, as such cars are no longer produced. Does that make them worse drivers? I doubt it. Why should anyone feel guilty for being a worse driver because they ride an advanced motorcycle? Your statements are dangerous, and considering the years and experience you claim to have, you should be more careful with the ideas you put in people's heads.
I don't think that any of my words could harm you, it is exactly the opposite, they will help you to see the reality and be alert, but I am not going to argue with you.
@@motorcycleadventures Why would we argue? We are both from Balkans, but it doesn't mean that just because we have different opinions we must argue.😇 I just have the opinion that people shouldn't be given excuses not to buy safty equipment, or a newer motorbike. And that it can be extremely dangerous for people to rationalize such decisions. When we know that no matter how skilled a driver you are, technological assistance in a tricky situation is always welcome. Your grumbling about new technology sounds like you're rationalizing because you can't afford it. And of course, there are many people who can't, or are stingy, so they also find a reason through your grumbling why they don't need it. Either way you are an authority on the subject, but with that comes great responsibility. I, for example, am a great authority on horses and have a modest UA-cam channel for the Serbian-Croatian speaking area. Horses are several times more dangerous than motorcycles. And when I was younger, I didn't understand the weight of words and how others perceive them... Today, even though I think something, I will never say it publicly, because I know there are people who could die based on that. Why you put yourself in a situation to carry such responsibility, I don't know. So, more like well-meaning advice, from someone who has been educating people on UA-cam and in person in a much more dangerous activity for much longer
Once again, my advice was to learn how to ride properly. You misunderstood the whole idea of the video and there is nothing I can do about it. If you cannot stand behind your words, in your horse niche, don't do it, but I am not afraid of my advice at all, because it can only help people. Once again, my advice was to learn how to ride properly, and not to avoid electronics at all.
The most important safety feature in motorcycling is the brain of the rider. I survived without any injuries 43 years riding motorbikes. For 42 years I had no "so called safety features" on board. Since I have ABS on my one year old T700, I appreciate it but still use, guess what... my brain
Agree! Thanks for sharing!
What brand/ kind of stove do you have burning in your shop ? 1:18
100% Your brain is more important than any safety feature. I rode with a guy that just bought a new Harley and asked me why I wear a full faced helmet. The reasons I gave him went in one ear and out the other even faster. I told my wife he won’t be riding long and he totaled the bike before his first payment. He’s lucky to be alive and I can only imagine how much his medical bills are
The only things I require on my motorcycles are standard motorcycle controls , Cable operated throttles ,standard clutch & gears ,& standard unlinked front & rear disc or drum brakes . I don’t want or need any cruise control ,traction control, slipper clutches ,blipper throttles or even ABS . An competent experienced rider with a full licence should be able to adjust their riding style & speeds to the conditions required for roads & weather . They should give us the choice & produce models without all the unnecessary expensive gadgets at reduced prices . The more gadgets the more to possibly go wrong in the middle of nowhere & leave the rider stranded .
I disagree it's the drivers all around you that you can not control
To further simplify: safety breeds complacency. Thanks you again for your honesty and informative videos.
Thanks for watching!
Hi from Uk your spot on more tec doesn't mean riders can give up on building skills by the only way possible ride and practice never rely on tec makes riders complacent
It could also be that those of us that learned to ride on bikes with no safety features we learned the limits of the bike. With all of the current features you can ride faster and harder. When you exceed the limits of those features you're in real trouble.
True!
Exactly. Same with the cars. But while driving Lada or such you were feeling when limits are coming. In Audi/BMW/whatever it's ok,ok,ok, CRASH because electronic assistants can keep only up to some level of driver stupidity. When they can't it's already too late to do anything. And motorcycles are becoming cars (one engine / frame shared between multiple platforms and so on) because of the cost saving.
@@puffybodie5282spot on, I rode bikes for 40 years, and yeah I've binned a couple of bikes in my time but only through my own stupidity and not using the 5 brain cells I had.
I simply would not have bought a machine fitted with ABS, traction control and any other "safety aids" it takes away the skill of riding a bike or car.....if you need them you should give up using the roads.
Again pavlin you make total sense I've maintained ' increased speed equals increased risk ' ive found over the years by sticking around the speed limit ish i rarely have a problem with other drivers,to be honest its taken age and experience to realise this.
Thanks for taking the time!
Excellent video Pavlin and I could not agree more. ADV motorcycles have gotten too heavy, too powerful, and too expensive. I think that too many riders are now jumping into the sport with their checkbooks wide open with the mindset that they can buy a bike that makes up for their lack of experience and skill, and the motorcycle manufacturers are helping them with this idea. The problem is that you can not trust the electronics with your life in all situations, over years of time. Riders need to go back to basics, learn to ride proficiently in the dirt on smaller machines, and then move up the displacement ladder to a point that makes sense based on desired speed and road miles for their trip plans. I like to ride mostly dirt these days and for that I find that I really only need 25 HP and a much lighter bike. It is a funny paradox that the big bikes have a ridiculous amount of power now and then they put an electronics package on top of that which basically reduces the power down to a more manageable level so why not just buy a less expensive, less powerful machine and spend more on gas and travel in the beginning and have a more reliable machine as a bonus? Good video, more riders need to understand that electronics can not make up for lack of basic skills.
Thanks for taking the time!
I concur with Neil and Pavliv. The modern boondoggle of today's bike are wonderful in function but can be distractive as well. Often they dull your senses to the actual events; you loose your "feel" of the situation. There is a lot to be said for keeping things "simple". I've been riding for 50+ years starting with a 350 on the road and a 250 on the dirt. As time passed my skills improved and I progressed in displacement et al. Currently riding my 1st gen Hayabusa and 1st gen Weestrom. I don't like ABS in the dirt so I engineered an ON/OFF for it… Lots of mileage a la IBA.
Excellent video Pavlin.
I, like many others, learnt to ride before there were any safety features. We learnt how to stop in an emergency, we learnt how to ride in slippery conditions (rain, snow and oil & diesel - vehicles weren't as "fluid-tight" as they are today), we learnt to ride in the dry and the wet. We then had to pass a test, usually in the rain, where we had to perform an emergency stop from 30 mph (50 km/h) without locking-up the wheels. After that we were able to learn to ride properly, not just to pass the motorcycle test 😁. I've had to perform emergency stops from speeds of 80 mph (130 km/h) in the wet and, once, from over 140 mph (225 km/h) in the dry without ABS (and no, I didn't need to change my underwear). We learnt how to understand the feedback the bike was giving us. We learnt to negotiate roundabouts in the wet which were covered in diesel. _All without _*_safety features_*
I personally believe that new riders should learn the same way as we did - to control the bike without safety features. Bikes today are way more powerful, 500cc bikes when I started riding were considered very powerful and 750cc and above for professionals or idiots. On these more powerful, modern bikes, these safety features should be an option. For example, I've never used the safety features yet (and hope I never have to) on my 149 hp bike and on my commuter bike (49 hp), they are more of a hindrance than a help and in over about 200,000 km I've never had to use them.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
1,000 % agree.
The electronics cause newbies to ride over their head and teaches them to rely on the bike' systems. Causing more crashes due to lack skill.
Totally agree with you Pavlin. The first and by far most important safety issue is the pilot, his/her ability, experience and conciousness. The only electronic or mechanical gadgets that, in my opinion, are of some value are the ABS (not always you can avoid an accident just manouvering) and the slip clutch, which prevent blocking the rear wheel when downshifting.
Fair enough!
You are absolutely right, , nowadays with all the gadjets people get distracted and forget about their ride. Thats when accidents happens.
It is what it is!
You will see the same or higher rates in auto accidents right after seatbelts were mandatory. Does that mean cars are less safe? No. It means likely that people feel more secure so they take more risks. It's not a new topic. The increased power, I would think has more to do with it. In 1987 my GPZ 750 had about 60 HP and a modern 600 can have 100+. The statistics you are missing is the breakdown of which type of bike is involved. It's important to properly parse the data. Lots of studies on this very subject. As always good video, even when we don't agree exactly. Cheers!
...people take more risks, because of the false safety they have from many fancy features. Thanks for taking the time!
Hi Pailin,
I fully agree with you.
I grew up on the farm and started off with enduro/ dirt bikes, which gave me the opportunity to fall and learn (not on the main roads). That afforded me the opportunity to learn, and develop my skills and large motor skills such as balance and judgement.
I haven’t been riding for many years, and wish to start once again, but because of previous experience I realise that I need to be cautious.
I grew up without all these safety features, and it reminds me of the modern era in construction where management believes that if that force employees to wear all the PPE, they wouldn’t get injured..we all know that’s not how it works. IMO the same rules apply to riding a bike.
Thanks for taking the time!
Reminds me of my old Dad's idea:
"Take all the safety stuff out of cars. And put a 2 foot long metal spike in the middle of the steering wheel - BOOM - overnight no more accidents!"
Might help!
I do agree with the point, i sometimes turn off the ABS and traction control on my R1250GS to feel the bike. But i disagree on the views of the statistics, because its missing a big game changer and big danger for the bikers, the climb of a car drivers that use mobile phones while they drive. You look at the 1991 or 2005 when there was none of the mobile phones in hands of car drivers
This could be also a factor.
My old bikes included a CB550, GS650 and XTZ750. I rode them in all weathers including snow and often in sub zero temperatures, commuting and touring. On simple machines like those, one develops a very intimate and of course essential sensitivity to road surface conditions and one quickly learns to ride accordingly.
Thanks for sharing
I generally agree, I grew up riding off road bikes with no rider aids, so learnt the hard way how to brake to the limits of grip, and can control the traction of the rear wheel with my right hand. In fact ABS can be dangerous off road. Having said that, on the road I would still have ABS given the choice just in case I'm not on "top form" one day, it might help you out.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
I still think the safety features are a net positive… there are many more factors such as mobile phones, increasing size of bikes, aging boomers,etc. plus it was hard to see how if the overall accident rate was dropping over time. There certainly a lot more bikes on the road. In any case, without these features we would probably see far more accidents and far more fatalities, everything else being held equal. I know for myself I have had my abs save me when someone cut right In front of me and then came to a stop. I know the abs out performed what I could have done in braking and in another incident my traction control helped me avoid a collision when I swerved very aggressively to avoid a deer. I was braking hard and swerving and both systems kicked in. I am not in the statistics because I avoided the crashes!
I would also point out that similar arguments were made about abs on cars decades ago.. people made similar arguments that a good driver could out perform them or they make people take more chances, etc.. those arguments are long in the past.. insurance companies will tell you these have greatly improved safety.
As I said I always question and doubt on everything that comes from main stream media or it is regulated by authorities. It is not always in our favor. The last great example that I can give you was the coronavirus and lock downs.
You are right on. I ride alone, today riding in groups is super dangerous. I have no abs and and never ride with a group. Trust only yourself your skill and come home alive
Thanks for sharing!
Good vid. Pav. Safe motorcycle riding cannot be stressed enough. Knowing myself,knowing my bike.Understanding my riding ability & how I'm feeling.The weather,tyres etc.all play a part in staying alive. Too many young riders die because they are not fully aware.
Exactly! Thanks for taking the time!
In 1990 there were way less cars and also NO MOBILE PHONES therefore WAY LESS DISTRACTIONS for car drivers. A lot of them accidents are caused by car drivers which result to minor accidents for them but not so for motorcycle riders. Also, cars have become bigger and heavier, making it harder to stop but also protect their passengers but not what they are crashing against. Of course you are right to say that motorcycle riders have become less capable and less aware and respectful of the power they hold.
This also helps!
As someone now 61 and after a life time around bikes and cars as a rider starting as a little tacker at 5 and driving tractors at 9 and my years since my late teens building both cars and bikes I’m still a big believer in KISS (keep it simple stupid) totally agree with you people today become to dependent on assist toys and have lost to much of their road or dirt craft skills. Even now when looking at any vehicle I’ll always look at the lack of bells and whistles as an advantage and will go for as pure or simple as I can get. As always great video and very sound advice. Thanks for sharing. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
My pleasure! Thanks for sharing your experience!
I had 2 actual traffic accidents in my life. In both cases I had to brake unexpectedly in a corner to avoid a car (both cases the cars fault and completely stupid and unexpected) In both cases I avoided the car, but I fell because I blocked the front brake. Cornering abs may have just saved me there…
And I was a quite skilled national level motorcycle racer at the time. I knew how to brake. Doesn’t mean you’re wrong, just that there’s 2 sides to the it.
In some situations ABS extends the brake travel path, so you don't know what might be.
You don't know how to brake, if you lock the front wheel.
Read more about "Trail braking"...
Truer words were never said. I learned to ride in 1982, on my brother’s Yamaha RD 350, on the back lawn… I knew that if I dropped his bike, it wouldn’t be the fall that would break my arm lol. I quickly learned about traction, power and breaking on a slippery surface. Still riding safely today.
Thanks for sharing!
One of the biggest problem is how many rider over rely on these safety features. For example ABS having started off riding when I was 15 when bikes didn't have ABS, I learned how to ride pre-ABS. Same with traction control.
Since 2017 once a month I do a riding course at one of the local schools, which helps people get their 500cc plus license. I purposely use bike for this training that don't have ABS for my students. At the beginning what i've noticed is many are nervous of even scared riding a bike that doesn't have ABS, because they have been told it's dangerous. This of course is just not true. Over-reliance on technology is more dangerous.
Common sense is safer.
Of my 5 bikes only 3 of them have ABS and traction control, and I'm ok with both of these features. But, at no time do I think. ABS or traction control will save me from a sticky situation. That would be just dumb.
Thanks for sharing!
One point missing is that nowadays more people report accidents due to technology. Maybe in the past people used to report accidents only when they have injured people or fatalities. Usually data is not so simple to analyse.
True
28 years a federal safety inspector and accident investigator. Numbers don't lie. Things can change for the better. Throw the human being into the equation and you spoil the consequences of most all safety devices. The real answer they are only there because of the mistakes made by the operators. A do good scenario to save us from ourselves. I did a lot of fatal/injury investigations. There are almost no accidents in life. They are caused by actions of human beings. That said learn how to ride. Ride properly for the conditions, your own personal abilities, proper safety gear to minimize injury and use a machine you can control given the worst of the worst drivers and conditions that you are exposed to. Good job Pavlin.
Completely agree with this!
Very good observation and yes there are a lot of people who think exactly like you. I was so happy when they brought out the 300 Hondas simple machines and all I really need. The other danger of safety features is them malfunctioning an leaving you stranded in the middle of nowhere.
Reliability is another good reason to avoid them. Thanks for taking the time!
I am 53. I have been riding motorcycles since my teens. To this day. I have never riden a motorcycle with ABS, etc. My 2019 Doul Sport has none. I adjust everything myself. Tires on up to my brain. I have had only one accident. Going slow around a corner and the valve stem tore away from the tube on my front tire. That was two years ago. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
If im being honest, I found my 1290's tech aids made up for more than a few of my shortcomings. That being said, i found my primary danger as a daily rider was people in cars
Fair enough!
As you say, Pavlin, there is much marketing in the bike business. The best piano in the world won't make a Mozart out of you. Even with Usain Bolt's shoes I am still a lame duck ;-) Constant training (riding/fitness) and a sound mindset is most important in my opinion. I love that you question the industry's "stories". Günter/Nürnberg
Absolutely!
The only relevant statistic is accident rate/fatalities per mile. Twice the miles with less than twice the number of fatalities is an improvement any which way you look at it.
This being said a lot of safety features seem designed to gloss over the quite frankly extreme amount of horse power present in many bikes. When I was a kid a powerful car with a turbo 2.5-litre engine had 190 hp. Today you can easily find a bike with that power and you know….I mean, for me it’s too much and quite dangerous. I think you end up making the best point: don’t buy a bike so powerful you need electronics to keep you alive.
See vehicle miles for early years and you will see what I see. For example from 2007 to 2012, about the same miles and the same dead, even less without any systems. So the result is no improvement or turn in very bad direction!
@@motorcycleadventures Yes and the graph shows just that. A huge reduction in fatalities in about 07, a plateau thereafter and a marginal increase in 2020-2021. But as a measure of fatality/ridden mile 2021 is still far safer than the time before any safety features.
FortNine made another statistical comparison and stated that the increase in fatalities in the past few years has come from 1400+ cc bikes. Highway tourers who put down serious miles and are usually ridden by older gentlemen. No amount of ABS or TC will stop you crashing if you fall asleep or you can’t react in time. Maybe radar cruise control could help in some cases (it works for cars) but I’m not sure I’d want it anyway.
@@903lew also increased number of vehicles on the road...the data is incomplete. OFC the 1st line of defense for a rider should be his brain...but we also cant react as fast as TC. Why cant we have both? brain and tech working together...for a safer ride.
@@Gh3cko I’m just not convinced its needed on all bikes (see above point about engine size from F9). If I owned a fire-breathing litre bike? Yeah, I’d take every aid I could get. But I ride a Tracer 700 with the same CP2 as Pavlin. I take it easy, I ride fairly slow. Do I really need to amortise the needs of those that have bigger bikes than I am interested in? I’m not sure. I wouldn’t avoid a bike with TC, IMUs or anything like that but I don’t see it as a plus for me.
The thing is, with safety regulations etc. required every new year, manufacturers are forced to add many electronic features, inevitably raising the purchase cost and reducing reliability. Unfortunately, the options available for 'simple' motorcycles are becoming increasingly scarce. However, I would choose ABS in any case. It is a top safety feature. As long as it doesn't activate, you know you're braking correctly.
It is what it is!
Totally agree.
I've been riding for over forty years, three decades were racing MX, enduro, road bikes and stunt riding. As a teen I learned to ride with garbage handed down tyres until later I could afford the luxury of proper tyres for each condition. Cutting fresh edges on old mx tyres for grip and stuck with whatever tyre was free, no luxury of soft med or hardpack tyre.
My current KTM 890 has the abs removed and the traction control disabled, it stops better and provides way more feedback than the dulled down constant intervention of electronic aids.
Claim what they want, a bike with abs, 50/50 tyres and abs is a poor combination off road, I have seen many riders have accidents because when the tyre lacked traction the abs intervention caused the bike to carry on rolling and they hit an immovable object.
A better tyre for the conditions would have been the correct way to approach things. But doing multi surface riding with just one tyre is what most adv riders will encounter. Learning how to feel for traction rather than letting the gizmos doing it hide the true feedback would not give so many less experienced riders a false sense of ability, and they would ride more appropriately for the conditions.
There are several studies by motoring institutes that confirm abs can be a hindrance and even counterproductive when used off road. I prefer zero and ride 365 days of the year in any condition.
Even after decades on MX bikes, moving to stunting on tarmac and learning how to manipulate the front brake from three figure speeds in the wet, popping a rolling stoppie was worth more in skill set training than abs could have ever done for me.
I'm not saying the aids don't have a place, but I'm sure glad I learned on machines without all the crap.
Wheelies are another bone of contention and frowned upon and illegal in most places, they are may be considered show boating but are actually a bike control skill. I was once actually let off after being stopped for a slow wheelie because the two police officers started to argue. The second officer was a biker and defended me saying that he couldn't do what I did and said to the other officer to stop it, it was skill not a dangerous manoeuvre on a quiet dead end road 😎
There is a reason why nearly all of the top road racers and circuit racers have come from a trials or MX background - they possess the skills riding on tarmac with a digital controlled bike just doesn't teach you.
Rider aids are there for manufacturers to comply with regulatory needs imposed by organisations that don't always work with all of the facts...
Thanks for sharing your experience!
You're welcome, thanks for the great content and straight talking 😎
Any time!
My story. Had BMW F650GS. 2006 year, ~37kw. Had it for 3 seasons. Traveled alone and with my girlfriend. It was fine, no problem even two up with side cases. Then decided that I need a BIGGER, more POWERFUL bike. Tried many (Africa Twin 1100, R1250GS, V-Strom 1000, Tracer 900, Transalp 750, Terere 700...). And well, I am comming back to 700-800cc territory. I do not need 1000+cc. 100-120km/h - comfortable speed. 130km/h - about my limit speed. ~140km/h - too fast for me. Feels like I can't control the situation at that speed. If something happens, I don't feel like I could react and avoid an accident. And it does not matter what bike it was: big Africa Twin 1100 with fancy modes or a smaller Tenere 700 with abs only. All of them feel the same - the faster you drive, the unsafer it gets. Thanks for video. Keep going. Drive safe.
Thanks for sharing!
I enjoy it with my 1998 Aprilia Pegaso and totally agree with you. I listen to "recognized" vloggers who, in the comparison test of motorcycles, consider a motorcycle to have a disadvantage of a 10" display compared to a 12" display... simply crazy and sad that these bloggers have such many followers
There is place for everyone on UA-cam
Great video Pavlin. All you need is thinking and scanning ahead plus traction control in your right wrist. I agree that the lighter and simpler the bike, the less problems you will have. DAve from Canada
Absolutely!
That's a very clever flue system on your heating stove...
I ride a 1988 Honda CBR600... no ABS, no slipper clutch, not quick shifter, no traction control. But then I got my first bike in 1962 so I learned when no such aids were available. A few years ago, I went on a riding refresher course and on the braking exercises I was out-braking the new bikes with ABS, even though the instructor actually required the non-ABS bikes to have more available distance. So yea I agree with you. I think that those aids, useful as they can be especially on 'dodgy' surfaces tend to be relied upon by those that know nothing else, and that in turn results in such riders more often getting ahead of their skill level and coming to grief.
Thanks for sharing!
You're so right Pavlin, because of todays safety features riders are riding faster because they're relying too much on said features to get them out of trouble. My first big bike was the '89 BMW K100LT , the first bike model fitted with ABS as standard (fromm '88). I didn't tho' buyit because of the ABS but purely because I thought itwas the best touring bike on the market. I never changed my riding style eitheras I still rode it as if it had non.
A lot of bikers race around on their bikes unnecessarily, whether riding 1km or 100km because they think they are safer with all the gadgets instead of using them whilst riding normally in case of an emergency.
Infact the bike I have now is 30years old and has no electronics not even ABS. I still ride WITHIN my capabilities and not let the bike take me for a ride. Ride safe Pavlin.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for your efforts and honesty brother
My pleasure!
Traction Control and ABS worked amazingly on my old KTM. Now on the T7 the ABS is really slow and clunky. I prefer if my bike has good electronics than bad ones that you still have to turn off all the time.
You can always turn it off.
I don't need safety features or rider aids, which is why I purchased a base model KLR last year. I would have bought a Suzuki DR650, but the KLR was actually cheaper.
Thanks for sharing!
Hi Pavlin,
The only thing I would add to what you said on this topic, with which I agree completly, is that modern (new) motorcycles have besides weight, power, systems, etc. is speed. This is what raises the % on deaths # and lowers it for the injured.
All the best from Romania from a fellow T7 happy owner,
Matei
Thanks for adding!
Cars are getting really dangerous due to all the so-called safety features. I can only imagine how much more dangerous a new bike is with all these gadgets that take your control away.
It is what it is!
Everything is so true. Anyway I would like to make an additional remark: There is much more traffic and the drivers are worse and worse. Why? They don´t learn to drive bit rely on the cars saftey systems. And they are distracted by the entertainment and large displays in the car. Besides, windows in modern car design are much smaller than 20 years ago. But after all it is us who drive sensibel and carefully
True
Riding 40 yrs. Kick start 1953 BMW. Agree. Excess speed kills. Helmet,gloves, leathers, boots,maintenance, and humble common sense are the best safety aids I know.
Thanks for sharing!
I totally agree with you're good conclusion we all need to learn by our mistake
Good!
Same is happening with cars. In some parts of the world, fatality rate is rising even though cars are 5 star safety with ten airbags. The common denominator is the idiot in control 😅
True!
My XT250 (Serow) has “none of the above”.
Thank you for the video
Any time!
Hats off to Pavlin for another excellent video!
Glad you liked it!
Keep up God's good work by mercilessly preaching your message to the public, brother 💪
I will, thanks!
Ooh but you are so right ;) Riding tractors in the country side in Iceland growing up from 11-15years old teaches you the most about what works ant what doesn´t... :) - good times, good times :)
It is what it is!
Riding skills and the right mind set are 100% more important than electric assistance. I test rode one of the new Triumph 1200s and spent the majority of the ride trying to switch off the different assists. The anti stall was the most annoying, never got the ABS to trigger because I have a pretty good level of brake control.
Thanks for sharing!
You're a funny guy and I wholeheartedly agree. You are correct, sir!
Glad you think so!
and again i agree a 100 percent buddy. When i started motorcycling in the 70´s nobody even dreamed of the actuell technology to protect ourselves from our stupitidy. We learned it the hard way, or (a bit more intelligent) by listening to the elder bikers. I grow up with tyres that had the grip of an Iceblock on wet soap. Frames and suspension were a bad joke comparing to the the bikes in our days. So we had to learn that our brain is the ABS and TC and what ever. Don´t get me wrong, i apreciate modern technology ,
but if this technology needs to engage, you did something wrong before.
Thanks for sharing!
I've never had the front wheel ABS activate on my BMW, and the rear wheel mostly only when I've deliberately activated it. But the traction control has kicked in a couple times. I've never crashed due to a loss of rear wheel traction under power, though, in 30 years of driving. I learned how to play with rear wheel traction and what to do if I lost it. But my 2008 BMW, which i bought in 2019, is the first bike I've owned that had either of these features.
Thanks for sharing!
I get where you are coming from and I think in parts you are correct, but to me, you are drawing a lot of conlusion from one study. There are a lot of unkown variables which are hard to judge imho
There are many studies that shows more or less the same, but as I said in the video, I rely mostly on my personal experience and everything that I have seen with my own eyes.
@motorcycleadventures Yes, but your experiences are inherently biased. If I just look at my experiences, rider aids are a good thing. I think it's not hard to believe that a bike ridden the same way, is safer with than without safety systems. If the rider changes his riding because he has safety systems, is up to the rider. It's the same discussion with bicycle helmets or you could even make the same argument for motorcycle helmets.
(By the way I am riding with helmet and all gear, but without abs 😉)
It's relying on these features for safety and not on your riding skills and training that lead to these numbers.
True!
I agree somewhat and I know proper braking is faster braking the using abs. I am keeping my abs brakes.
I never said the opposite, but it has some downsides.
Pavlin, U R 100% right. The young kids, and 60% or more of adults, do not and don't want to understand these simple things you are explaining. They believe in the marketing magician. My parents were traveling in the old days with the NSU 250, 19HP all over former Yugoslavia having fun. Presently I have a Tenere 700 and an old tenere 600. To be honest the old one would be more than OK 4 my riding & traveling style. Well , I am not perfect 2 .... lol
Thanks for sharing!
We blame things like mobile phones for accidents and the like, but things like abs give a false sense of security on car's and motorbikes i reckon sometimes a huge spike in the steering wheel ready to stab you when you a cockup means pay more attention
Agree!
I agree every word what you said, and this theme is a wasps nest every time when i it for mention someone.
Thanks, man!
I use my cruise control for the 50mph average speed camera zones as it allows more eyes on the road than on the Speedo.
Unfortunately mine doesn't work at 20mph, the speed at which it would be most useful 😢
Thanks for sharing!
Many people are paying a lot of money to buy all these fancy motorbikes-even many women....''I want to have this,i want to have that'' and etc,they say.I am an old fashioned guy.I am thinking to buy an old/used YAMAHA XTZ 750 SUPER TENERE.I think it suits me very well for start.
Do it!
Someone said the best safety feature on a car would be a big pointy spike on the steering wheel. Force the driver to understand consequences.
Probably!
Electronic assistants make people feel more confident than their skill level allows, like having powerful bike which they can drive fast on a straight road, but automatically choked down during fast start and cornering errors. But no electro ic assistant can override laws of physics, so if, for example, you enter a turn with wrong speed and radius, nothing can save you. In my opinion, best use of electronic assistants comes when road conditions accidentally change, like when you enter a turn with bumpy asfalt, and rear wheel (already in lean) starts jumping - regularly encounter this in our city, and reducing the speed at last moment isn't always a best option due to cars behind.
True!
It would also be interesting to see if there is a relationship between fatalities & type & capacity of bike. As someone also noted the distraction caused by mobile phones could be a factor. I enjoy your videos.
Sport bikes take a big chunk from the stats.
If you give up your freedom in the name of security, then you deserve & should have ether. Without ABS breaks I have the freedom to lock or not lock. I have a motorcycle for years thousands of miles i dragged the back tire once drum and cable breaks & I stopped extremely fast also hard front break pressure.
True!
I'm a little different because I don't even have a smartphone, but for me a motorcycle has to look nice, sound good, be easy to service, and it has to have two wheels and an engine and be of good quality
Fair enough!
Good thought provoking video as usual, thanks for sharing.........
Thanks for watching!
I agree mostly with you but I’m not sure how useful US data is considering that wearing a helmet is not compulsory in every state (no insult to American friends, it’s your choice). A quick glance at UK motorcycle fatalities shows an average 551 deaths annually between 2004-2009 and an average 349 between 2010-2022 excluding the two pandemic years of 2020 and 2021 which were even lower (285 and 310). The official statistics show UK motorcycle mileage to have reduced 10 % between 2004-2022 but fatalities have reduced by over three times this number. It is very difficult to obtain a motorcycle license in the UK now leading to many fewer young people riding and this has contributed to the reduction in fatalities.
I rode motorcycles for 20 years and then had a 20 year break. My motorcycle has ABS, the only other modern safety feature is that my engine cuts out if I try to ride off with my side stand down. In my first year of my return to riding my ABS activated three times, I’m not saying it saved me, but it definitely helped. My ABS has not activated for 5 years so hopefully this shows my riding has improved. My car has a blind spot warning on the mirrors, I would like this on a motorcycle but I don’t feel I need the other safety features you mentioned 🇬🇧
Thanks for sharing!
Imo it's the "safety features" on CARS that are the threat. Radars, lane assist, auto braking, blind spot cameras ect. All this tech is 100% training drivers to not pay attention.
Absolutely!
Exactly never heard it said better , quit texting and follow vehicles 10x farther
Awesome infomation and advice.
Keep it up a work
Thanks, will do!
Again Pavlin you get to the truth of the matter, and it's an important matter. Personally I don't like the intrusion of 'rider aids', rider modes etc, and much prefer to learn to ride the bike in one form. So many of these features fundamentally alter the bike, such that you have to adapt to a slightly different bike when you change modes or settings. Your reflexes cannot adapt to the essential machine if you keep changing the way it responds.
I love my old 'analogue' bikes, but the reality is that the conspiracy of manufacturers and legislators has led us to having these 'features', whether we like it or not! I am over 7,000 kms on my new Transalp now, and really like the bike, but I find I am running up against its electronic 'features', particularly off-road, and it's annoying! I only ride it in one mode (Sport) - I bet most owners do -which minimises the intrusion of the electronic bollocks,, and keeps the bike consistently the same, but the traction control off-road is just silly, even in the first (minimal) setting. The rigmarole to switch it, and the rear wheel ABS, off (only for them to come back on after switching the bike off/on) is the major disappointment of the model to me. A great machine, spoiled by interfering nonsense that I didn't ask for. These features are no doubt well-intentioned, supposedly with safety in mind, but the fact that some are now legally required (ABS) is just wrong. We should have the choice. My 61 years of riding should permit me to not have this stuff on my bike. I bought it, and I ride it. Motorcycles were originally meant to cater to individuals...
Many factors feed into the statistics you quote, like heavier traffic in later times, and of course far greater power outputs (and even more extreme weather to a degree) but I suspect much of the accident statistics, bike and car, which are worsening in so many parts of the world, are attributable to rider/driver ATTITUDE. There seems to me to be more belligerence and "let me in" mentality on the roads than when I was first riding (in the 1960s) and all the ABS and rider aids in the world will not change that. Manners are not considered as important now, apparently. Tyres, brakes and handling have all improved massively over the time period you refer to, yet more are dying on the roads. The proliferation of methamphetamines may play a part.
I liken these trends to my car, which has the ability to park itself, but which I have never used (and never will). But you can't buy that model without this function, meaning we have to pay for all this extra tech, even when we don't want it, and never use it. The vehicles are more complicated, and computer controlled, but we have no choice in this, unlss we just stay with our older models, which of course become harder to maintain as they age. Try obtaining a new tacho cable for a 1995 Elefant... I suspect that these newer machines will suffer more from computer/electronic problems, while their mechanical parts will probably keep going. That is, these features could eventually be the downfall of the vehicle's reliability.
The reality is my Transalp is a fine machine for the price, and has many advantages over my 28-year-old Cagiva Elefant, but I would gladly remove all the electronic nonsense from it if I could. (I still really enjoy my Ducati road bike, after 103k kms - one of the last to have none of this stuff). The false sense of security they provide newer riders is possibly more dangerous than the road situations they may encounter. LIke you, I feel modern riders have been 'sucked in' to a degree with this stuff, and all the weight and complexity they add to what should be a simple machine - a motorcycle. A bike with an engine. It is a great shame that legislation has gone along with this illusion of 'safety', when really the biggest safety feature is riding safely, and with consideration of others.
Thank you for taking on 'the hard topics'. A voice of reason in a world going a bit mad! Loved your father's forecast for future children. Clearly he helped you to gain your wisdom.
Thanks for taking the time and sharing your experience with the Transalp!
Around 13 years ago I was a school bus driver and statistically school busses were the safest form of motorized transportation even safer than flying. The school busses #1 had NO PASENGER SEAT BELTS ./ #2 NO airbags / #3 NO ABS breaks/#4 NO traction control /#5 NO electric low tire warning light / #6 NO backup camera. But yet these school busses were the safest vehicles on the road statistically !!! ............. Tires on cars pickups & motorcycles are wider so as to have more stoping power in the NAME of SAFETY ¿ What are the benefits of wider tires ? you can stop faster and have more traction (except in standing water puddles easier to hydroplane lose traction). So , ¿ What are the negatives of wider tires ? Well they cost more $ / burn more gas $ because of extra weight & rolling resistance & drag / wear out engines & transmissions quicker $ because they require more horse power to turn / wear out all suspension parts quicker $. Ok all because of following vehicles to close & driving too fast for road conditions like curves ect. I like to go slower follow vehicles much farther x5 or x10 farther, & I like to buy reasonably the narrowest tire with factory original tire hight . I get better fuel mileage, And better mechanical performance for my driving habits safely . And better performance going through standing water puddles on the highway or freeway !!! People that follow too close or tailgate need the wider tires just to keep from constantly hitting the vehicles they tailgate !!!
Interesting information, thanks for adding!
@@motorcycleadventures I've watched your videos alot and there is tons of hard evidence that support most if not all of your opinions that are in your videos. So at some point a person's opinions can actually be proven as true fact but I very much appreciate you giving your opinions in a humble way and not being to hard on anyone but yet simply sharing things that have benefited you so we can all learn together. You have taught me alot , SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH , MY RIDES ARE SAFER AND MORE ENJOYABLE. I was already doing much of what you share before I found your videos. But now I practice as much of your advice as I reasonably Can . I ride a low mileage mint condition 1989 Honda NX 250cc water cooled 6 speed extremely light Motorcycle . Because of you I installed a simple USB charger to the battery that has a second plug to insert my extremely small Motorcycle battery trickle charger . That's it for electronics. I'm going to buy some flexible ez to remove saddle bags. .If the Honda NX 250cc had a 21"tall tire & stiffer rear spring ,I honestly believe if they still made the same Motorcycle today it would be your Motorcycle of choice. It just that light & rugged 75 miles per USA gallon top speed 85-90 mph So it has more power than needed. Very low maintenance requirements compared to almost any other models (I think not certain) . Oh it could have used a 4-5 gallon gas tank. Perfect around the world Motorcycle. But they quit making it & parts aren't all ways available oh well.
I'm not convinced you can blame motorcycle safety features on increasing fatality/accident rates, I could have missed this in your presentation but today roads are generally more congested and car drivers are looking at their screens and it seems drivers are increasing becoming more aggressive. I've never had cruise control on a bike but I could appreciate it on the long straight boring stretches to the fun roads. I would appreciate ABS on a dark and rainy night. as far as rider skills I think many jurisdictions require some rider training even in the USA now and of course it is up to us to practice those skills like the front brake muscle memory for when the moose steps out from the bush.
You don't have to agree with me. Do and use whatever is good for you. Thanks for taking the time!
RIGHT SIR TOTALLY RIGT I RIDE AN AFRICA TWIN FOR MANY YEARS AND HAS GREAT POWER , ACTUALLY MORE THAN I USUALLY NEED
Thanks for taking the time!
Love watching all your videos, as I just bought a 2024 Tenere 700. Thanks for all the content you make. Спосибо большое.
Пожалуйста!
On statistic not mentioned is the percentage of type of motorcycle most deaths occur on.. my guess would be powerful sports bikes are at 90% of all motorcycle fatalities
I also think the same.
No safety assistance works without properly trained/experienced rider/user. That said, an experienced rider can do without any allegedly ‚safety’ assistance. 🍻🇵🇱🇧🇬 Practice makes perfect.
Agree!
I would like to see more emphasis on advanced rider training. I worry safety features run a risk of creating a false sense of security. For modern road conditions, the 2 most useful features are ABS and traction control. Are more features needed? Likely not. I winter ride a 2005 XL1000 Varadero, wet weight 283Kg, no ABS, no Traction, I'm still here to write this reply because I went through advanced rider training.
It is what it is!
I think you missed one data in your equation, there is way more cars and in accident where motorbikes are involved, most of the time their is a car too. You’re right, the most important is brain but an ABS is basic and might save your ass when you make an emergency braking or road is suddenly slippery.
Thanks for taking the time!
I recently bought a motorcycle and requested to have the non ABS model. The guy at the dealer Looked at me like I was crazy to me. All ABS does is make my bike less predictable, therefore less safe. I know how to use my brakes. I don't need the computer getting in the way.
Thanks for sharing!
But then again did the study take into account airbag vests? Something that wasnt a thing in the 20th century for the average rider. Better Safety clothing should reduce the injury rate
True
As we know all we are the customer in this capitalist world, system should invent more more things that we suppose it’s necessary. So may be this would stop development and I think conservatively but please let’s be honest, how many of person who use these all electronic equipments and how many of us get mad if can’t see tft screen and so many inessential information.
Anyway thank you for this open minded and honest video
Any time!
Look at the vehicle miles. It was more than double from 1990. It looks like you are massaging data to support your point of view. So the rate of fatalities for mile driven is actually lower in the last year reported vs 1990.
See vehicle miles for early years and you will see what I see. For example from 2007 to 2012, about the same miles and the same dead, even less without any systems.
@@motorcycleadventures so what year were most motorcycles sporting traction control abs? Stateside that seems like a more recent development. Some Bikes had ABS in 2012 but only the pricier stuff. Even today most bikes under 10k don't have traction control. ABS is pretty common now at most price ranges stateside. So really when did all these high tech bikes fill the roadways? Harley is still dominant in sales here. And they don't have fancy stuff. Is misleading without that detail. There is no question in my mind lean sensitive abs is a god send. That computer thinks faster and reacts faster than any human could end of story. I been riding over 30 years. I learned all the tricks. This new stuff is a game changer for safety in my mind. Even for experienced riders. That malarkey about reliability is ridiculous if your ABS stops working your motorcycle will still work you just won't have ABS and if your traction control stops working your motorcycle will still work you just won't have traction control.
I started riding with a CBR600 without any riding aid, and moved onto a crosstourer with abs and traction control. I do ride at very high speed when traffic condition allows..and touchwood... I had never encounter any situation where I need to use the ABS or traction control.
Yes I love the excitement of riding at high speed, but I TRY never to put myself in situations I need riding aid to come to my rescue.
Of course emergency situations may occur at any time, but I will always TRY to give myself good buffer zones to minimise potential risk as much as possible. How much buffer you may ask? I think that gonna depend on how much risk we are willing to take to push our skill and bike to its limits 😂
We don't buy accident insurances, with the intention of hoping we may use it right?😅
The eventual goal is to reach home safely.
Thanks for sharing!
Pavlin, I am really sorry but you disproved the thesis "numbers never lie". First, the dataset actually says the methodic changed in 2000 and 2020 so you shouldn't compare data before and after. It also take quite a time before safety features were common on bikes in the USA where the stats are from. It is not mandatory like in EU.
Also, what parameter you compare is important. Choosing, as you do, number of deaths per X accidents look innocent. But what if there are two different kind of accidents (and this may be close to the truth): First group is when you fail to control your bike, you fall, you slide and maybe you hit something - or not. Second would be ones when you first hit an obstacle (e.g. a car who failed to yield) and only then possibly fall off your bike and get some secondary hits too. One would expect the 2nd group to have much death per accident ration but grouping them together hides that. Now what if you implement a perfect ABS on all bikes that modulates the brakes so that you stop in the shortest possible distance but have no risk of sliding. The first group will see much less accidents as now you cannot crash due to improper brake application, the second group will see a small decrease as people brake better but sometimes by the time rider realizes they should brake it is too late to do so, so it will be much less. Overall, you managed to mitigate some accidents thanks to the ABS but mostly non-fatal ones and your number of deaths per X accidents starts looking worse - even though you improved! Maybe the ones with per miles traveled is a better statistics - and that show a slight improvement although that may be a statistical error too.😂
I do second what many commentators say your brain is the most important safety organ. But for me the best explanation of the brain is not a single entity but something like a team or a small company. Your conscious, the top layer, is the boss. Sure, he can try to micromanage but that takes time - time you often don't have on a bike. So you need to train, train, train "the employees", i.e. the lower brain parts - and search for your mistakes so that you can learn. Rode 10 000 km and had no situations? Sadly, that may not be a cause for pride, luck might have played a role. You had to perform an emergency maneuver to avoid a car failing to yield? Learn how to look for those and what to do so that you don't have to do the maneuvers (and also train the maneuver so that you don't forget it now that you don't use it on the road). Activated a safety system? Another mistake, train to find the edge so that you can ride it yourself.
That way, you will have multiple safety nets. They do break from time to time, that's why the more of them you have, the better.
Fair enough!
I think since 1990 we have much more cars on the road with way worse drivers and whatever motorcycle you ride or gear you wear a motorcyclist will be always more volunerable on a lightest collision. I think that's why fatalities are climbing. But yes skills matters, I mean skills with no safety features. The most advanced safety feature on a motorcycle is you!
True!
I am yet to be convinced that any level of electronic technology can make good human error or stupidity.
I cannot see how any level of technology will allow you to defy the laws of physics, and
A good operator with mediocre tools will still do a better job than a mediocre operator with top shelf tools.
The aids help a lot, but not in any situation.
One should not have any usage of safety features if driven appropriately, what ever the level of riding, but... just in case you screw up because of any reason than it's a mega plus. Between my Buell with absolutely no nothing and my Tiger with abs and stuff, I enjoy both, but I like the additional safety margin that comes with a modern bike
Fair enough!
I have an old 2007 1200gs , one without all the gimmicks. I’ll probably get a t7 next for the same reason.
Thanks for sharing!
Servus und Respekt!!!
Thanks, man!
Why all this hate against safety features? And why all the ”road heroes” proving themselves to be the best rider ever without safety features? I don’t understand.
I don't understand your commend either!
1,000 % agree.
Good!
Great video and it appears to have some statistical research. No poo poo’s to that. However, the statistics do not show what occurred to create the accident and subsequent fatalities. For example, was another vehicle being operated while its driver was looking at their phone, which is another electronic devise.
You cannot find a stats that will show everything, but they are good information to get bearing!
Hey pavel got a question what do you think about mocycles airbag jeans I saw an add for them and was thinking about buying them any thoughts. Keep up the good work
Never seen them
@motorcycleadventures
I am a new rider actually still in school in Germany so you know how long that is. So I have to get gear and would love to see the opinion of an expert rider
And thanks for the reply
How many bikes are on the road in 2021 as apposed to earlier years?
The number of the people it doesn't matter. We have the number of the accidents and they are the same as before.
@@motorcycleadventures no if the number of bikes on the road increases the the number of accidents will increase as well. Not to mention the number of immature riders taking greater risks.
While I agree on your assertion that electronic rider aids contribute to lower skill riders I believe your correlation to less safe is deeply flawed because there are many many variables that contribute to the accident/fatality outcomes. For instance distracted drivers on their cell phones/devices surely cause more bad outcomes than electronic rider aids, often the distracted car driver causes accidents even though they aren't involved in the collision. Don't get ne wrong, I'm not pro or con on electronic rider aids although I prefer my bikes with no aids, neither of my bikes even have abs and that's how I want it, no ECU intervention for me thank you! I had a MT09sp all loaded up with that crap...sold it.
Of course, there are many more factors that also contribute to that statistic, but I hope that you get the idea of the video.
Yeah nice,
Just leave out the Driven distance and your theorie seems finde as seen in 4:22 in lines 8-10 and 6 at the bottom of the sheet:
the Accidents per 100 million driven Miles has been going down significantly.
This is the percentage of people who have been involved in accidents and died. It doesn't matter how many were on the road. If the number of people who were involved in accidents was double more, but the number of dead and injured people were the same, then your theory would be correct. We can only assume that because of the safety features, many did not crash and because of that they are not in the statistics, but we can also say that because of their skills, many riders from 1990 are not in the stats. That's why I only rely on the data that we have and on my personal experience.
I can push harder and drive more aggresively using latest electronics. Do I enjoy new motorcycles, tech packed, waaay more? Ohoo, suure, brother. Do I get myself drunk with tap water thinking I am a better rider? Hell, no. I know very well I`m average and that the credit goes a lot to the electronics. Do I totally change the approach when jumping over an oldschool bike? Yes, sir, of course I do. Increased no of fatalities? Maybe, Im not a stats expert. Problem is nobody likes the truth. Truth doesnt sell bikes. I agree and disagree with you. Electronics are the best thing that happened in my motorcyclist life. Been around for 22 years and Im really happy about the constant progress. Not the technological progress kills people. The marketing and the young riders` lack of experience and ignorance kills them.
thanks for sharing your opinion!
As one of my professors used to say, "Statistics is the precise sum of inaccurate data." What the statistics you're referring to fail to show is the number of other vehicles, the number of registered motorcycles. And of course, the most crucial data is missing: how many accidents have been avoided because some safety system did its job? And again, you emphasize as if safety equipment is the reason people don't learn to drive? Safety equipment is there to correct a mistake or to signal a mistake, not to drive instead of you. How could you categorize cruise control as safety equipment?
In any case, having a seatbelt in a car and not using it because you think you will learn to drive better, or having ABS and thinking you won't learn how to brake, is absurd. Today, it is impossible to teach young people to drive in vehicles without ABS or traction control systems, as such cars are no longer produced. Does that make them worse drivers? I doubt it. Why should anyone feel guilty for being a worse driver because they ride an advanced motorcycle?
Your statements are dangerous, and considering the years and experience you claim to have, you should be more careful with the ideas you put in people's heads.
I don't think that any of my words could harm you, it is exactly the opposite, they will help you to see the reality and be alert, but I am not going to argue with you.
@@motorcycleadventures
Why would we argue? We are both from Balkans, but it doesn't mean that just because we have different opinions we must argue.😇 I just have the opinion that people shouldn't be given excuses not to buy safty equipment, or a newer motorbike. And that it can be extremely dangerous for people to rationalize such decisions. When we know that no matter how skilled a driver you are, technological assistance in a tricky situation is always welcome.
Your grumbling about new technology sounds like you're rationalizing because you can't afford it. And of course, there are many people who can't, or are stingy, so they also find a reason through your grumbling why they don't need it. Either way you are an authority on the subject, but with that comes great responsibility. I, for example, am a great authority on horses and have a modest UA-cam channel for the Serbian-Croatian speaking area. Horses are several times more dangerous than motorcycles. And when I was younger, I didn't understand the weight of words and how others perceive them... Today, even though I think something, I will never say it publicly, because I know there are people who could die based on that. Why you put yourself in a situation to carry such responsibility, I don't know. So, more like well-meaning advice, from someone who has been educating people on UA-cam and in person in a much more dangerous activity for much longer
Once again, my advice was to learn how to ride properly. You misunderstood the whole idea of the video and there is nothing I can do about it. If you cannot stand behind your words, in your horse niche, don't do it, but I am not afraid of my advice at all, because it can only help people. Once again, my advice was to learn how to ride properly, and not to avoid electronics at all.
alot more cars now
True