I am a big fan of this deckbuilding theory. Dan Parker wrote an article on tcgplayer titled "How Many Normal Summons Should You Play in Yu-Gi-Oh?" Although the article specifically referenced normal summons, the logic applies to other cards, including other forms of engine and even bricks. He provided a spreadsheet that shows there are two important deckbuilding breakpoints to consider when going first, 5 and 8 "copies" or "roles" of a card. These numbers are based on how much the success condition(1 copy in hand) and failure condition (2+ copies) percentages rise with each additional "copy" you add to a deck. The choice of 5 or 8 depends on how important you think it is to see the desired card, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 5 when dealing with undesirable cards such as going second cards main decked in Master Duel or bricks that you are forced to run (like Driver). Jesse Kotton made a YT video titled "The Heart Of The Cards is a Load of Rubbish! How to Improve at Yugioh #1" which also deals with this topic.
great and interesting video, but could be improved a lot still if you can work on the audio, perhaps stop the background music when you don't have a good mic?
Some things you really need to keep in mind before you start focusing on card ratios (bringing it up here because i didnt feel like it was given enough thought) 1) Your goal generally when first building a deck is to focus on the synergy of your cards. Whether or not you're playing a pure list, combining archetypes or building a pile deck is irrelevant when it comes to this. You should be focusing on card quality and how compatible your cards are with each other when designing the initial drafts of your deck, then work backwards as you try to make it more consistent and fit in more interlocking combo lines. Generally, this requires repeated testing and reiteration given that (as he mentioned) each archetype and combination of archetypes has a different ideal ratio of starters, not to mention that the goal of your deck if your building it from scratch will also greatly influence this number. That being said, it doesnt hurt to know common starter ratios for your archetype to save time developing the early drafts of your deck. This is where refering to netdecks can help if you're working with an archetype you've never played before. 2) This goes a bit into my first point, but if you're preparing for a regionals or something, you shouldn't combine certain archetypes if the combination isn't as strong, flexible and/or consistent as the pure list. To use Snake-Eye as an example since the tier 0 format helps to simplify this point: its really up for debate whether the Fire King variant is better than the Pure Snake-Eye list, and i've even seen some cases for including R-ACE as well. Overall your habits and knowledge as a player are generally going to enforce how you build your deck, and you need to take all that into consideration as well before focusing on the numbers. More than anything, optimizing ratios should be the last step of your deck building process (along with adding and removing cards to try and fit in more interactions and interlocking combo lines). Deck building is just a highly reiterative process. Overall though, i do think a series like this would be great when focusing on use cases. Doing regular uploads over staples or a single archetype would be VERY handy, and its an easily repeatable video format because archetypes change all the time due to Yugioh being an ever-evolving game. Content creators like GGYGO do a decent job of stuff like that, but we really do need more analysts like this in the community going over more specific deck building disciplines. Gonna go watch the Gamma video now since i'm curious if it mentions anything about Delta.
What a great in depth response to my video. You have made many points and added a great layer of depth to this discussion and i hope people tuning into this video see your response as it warrants many views. For point/paragraph 1, its interesting to see how different people deck build. When initially testing I personally usually overstuff my deck and then cut slowly 1 by 1 during testing until I find a good base. Its really true that it does take many hours of playtesting to get it right and you cannot get it right from the get go because of all of the nuances that go into deckbuilding and considering the current meta. For paragraph 2, i remember trying to make my own snake eye decklist work. I added a dogmatika package, I made the deck maticulously so the ratios would be perfect... then when i played the deck it just played awful and pure would have been better. Its funny, but yes even if you make the best ratios your deck can still suffer from other factors. Overall, great points and i truly thank you for your in depth comments. I will try to be more detailed and tackle nuances like this more often but I will always forget to cover something. Thanks you for watching!
Just an adittion; for marincess you want one card in hand but additional names can make you play around hand traps or make safer lines so i would say 15 works fine for marincess
I love marincess they can combo so hard. I personally don't think that you would nee that many but after thinking about it they do have some cards that stand out that make the 15 a good number. Sea maiden and sea horse SS for free. Pasculus can SS a marincess from hand. So yes I think running more marincess can be a good thing for extending into more link plays too. I was just thinking their barebones minimum combo of normal summon 1 marincess that can get you the whole combo. Thanks for adding that addition I agree.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Yeah. Some Marincess starters serve as both normal summons and extenders. 15 names + 2 Dive + 1 Battle Ocean is a total of 18 engine which leaves 22 slots for non-engine. Which is quite a lot.
i tried icebarriers + atlanteans + icejade and tried to fit 40-42 cards The idea was to use of 1 deep sea misntrel eff to discard water then drop one hand trap from oponent's hand, or even can serve as a handtrap bait when i discard one atlantean dragoons (get ash) then i can feel a little safer with the ice barrier engine, also can help me to trigger mirror mage from graveyard, and it's effect doesnt trigger chain (only after deep sea minstrel's effect, so i cannot be ashed, but it be banished in that moment.) The engine doesnt allow me to have -1, that's why i put 3. If i use revealer's effect, i can also discard to apply its effect... then get another, or deep sea minstrel, or 1 atlantean prince, or even 1 HEXA. I put only one atlantean prince (because its once per turn effect) it can be discarded to summon a dragoon, later it can be SS by link-2 marincess if i want... i put: 1 copy of icejade aerigine lv 3, 1 tremora lv5 2 copies of ram aerigine lv 7. 1 icejade spell to search, you may include the once that SS (its not usefull for first turn games tho...) 1 of Wayne (can be summoned with tremora) 1 of Raiho Georgius can be put at 1-2, but never 3, it becomes brick easly... its common for ice barrier decks with around 15-20 ice barrier monsters which is too much, if you consider "ice barrier medallion", its a great searcher, a joker, it doesnt limit level of your monster you want, so you can be safe to put less IB monsters. 1 ice barrier trap 1 freezing chains 3 medallions... 3 revealer 1 hexa 2-3 mirror master (now with your video i can considering 2 instead of 3, same for ram aerigine) 1 speaker 1 deep sea diva 1 atlantean prince 3 atlantean dragoons 1 deep sea minstrel 1 one for one 1 gameciel kaiju (searchable by ice barrier trap) The rest is adapted to its necessity, hand traps at number of 11-13 There is a sea serpent searcher spell (once per turn) with cost to banish one water from GY... Also this deck list is not updated with the late support for water with new atlanteans... there are some supports with SS from deck, which is a great help for Icebarrier...unless you make a pure atlantean deck with mermails, but i personally love the ice barrier. The idea and practice of this actual deck (not updated from the newest pack), was always ending with 3 lv 10 boss or having synchro crock + 1-2 bosses at field. Always summoning Deep sea prima donna, diving one of bosses the benefit of untargetable eff (scapes many effects with target from meta, except forbbiden chalice, tributes, super poplymerization) the cons about it is that the extradeck is short... there are great cards, but sometimes you cannot fit graydle dragon, its it or S:P. 4 destructions + SS after self destroy or one + two banishments that is very flexible? i Tend to use S:P instead. If the newest pack of atlanteans/mermail enters, i may apply the math (not use 2-3 copies for pure mermail/atlanteans setup), but make every card in hand useful.
Big ups to this vid, I'm a big numbers person as well, and have been a huge advocate for running 2 ofs and mishmashing archetypes. Rn I've been cooking up a pile, and I've gotten the ratios to a point where I borderline never brick, and I don't run any pot cards or wanteds, and only 1 bonfire. Redundancy is only good if it's for multiple steps in a combo, if you open up what's functionally 4 snake eyes ash, you're gonna have a bad time into hand traps. Unfortunately my deck doesn't just have 1 cards starts, it also has a slew of 2 card starters, so the numbers get very complicated very fast. But regardless I love these type of videos, keep em up! Outside of the mic thing which is a bunch of ppl already brought up, I would also say either turn down the music or don't put music when discussing analytical things like this just cause it can be distracting. Regardless tho, great vid!
Thank you! I literally just made another video and got a new mike so let me know how the audio is in that one. Unfortunately, I still left the music in hopefully with the mike there is a better balance with the quality. I am happy you enjoyed this video and I love pile decks as well. I am thinking of doing a 2 card combo in the future as well! Thanks for watching and love your added comments about running 2 cards and multiple archetypes.
If you keep up content like this your channel will explode. Yugioh needs more content like you and HakunaMyData. I think you’ll pick up in popularity, especially if you get noticed by a popular UA-camr or streamer. Good luck!
I feel like prank kids is a unique case because the starters are mutually exclusive. In most decks I've played opening multiple starters is often better than opening one because it leads to a hand that is more resilient to interruption. I don't play much master duel but I do play TCG regularly and in a format where cards like crossout and called by are often not worth playing, extra starters that can double as extenders are very good.
@@xckjyt in most decks I've played the starters are also extenders. For example in snake eye fire king opening 3 starters and 2 non-engine is often better than opening 1 starter and 4 non-engine. When every starter is also an extender then there is no downside to opening multiple.
Like how your deck snake eyes only plays only like 7 snake eyes starters to fit in other starters like T.G limiter removal and/or D/D savant. You only want to draw one starter card from each engine because of hard once per turn effects.
@@kozmoman1066 i get what you are trying to say but thats not really the case. In snake eye fire king unless you draw duplicates of a starter then every starter you draw past the first is an extender. Cutting starters for engines hurts your ability to play because you will have less resilient hands and will lose space for non engine which is incredibly bad in the current format. Not to mention most people(including myself) also play the fire king engine for a batter grind game and some extra resilience. 1 snake eye starter is not enough this format you need to see at least 2 preferably 3.
I’d love to hear you give an analysis on a pendulum strategy. Very few pendulum strategies have 2 card combos. And most 1 card combos to give at least 2 scales are not pendulum cards.
I think a 2 card combo video is going to be in the works soon as well! I love this suggestion btw. Thank you! Pendulums, Fusions, and Rituals decks are very similar in this regard in that they need alot of 2 cards sometimes to get going so this is something I will look into. Thanks for watching.
A couple of things - first is that some decks are extremely weak when they don't see a starter and lack synergies to run a back up engine and so have to maximise seeing a starter (hence why we see them intentionally flood their hand). The second is moreso on Upstart Goblin - it conflicts really badly with handtraps as drawing a handtrap off Upstart Goblin going second is essentially a -1 (the same could be said of Pot cards drawing 2, but the odds of drawing 2 handtraps and failing to "replace" your Pot are much lower than drawing 1 with Upstart Goblin, so most decks that can run a draw 2 pot do so).
This is a fantastic idea, and I'd be extremely intersted in an analysis of going 2nd. There was a small audio issue where your microphone occaisonally cut out, but great video. Can't wait for more!
love data and stats; that being said, the main goal is to have a winning hand, which means having multiple starters is better than no starters. So ignoring functional values - there are two curves and you want to find the intersection of the two curve. One curve being incremental (derivative of your 1 starter curve) % change of getting 1 starter, the other being incremental % change (derivative) of your dup starters curve. The point of intersection will tell you at which point (# of starts in deck) does it make more sense to run the risk of having no starters than to have more starters brick in hand? This is to say, increasing 1 more starter will only get you 2% more chance of getting a starter, but will increase your brick change by 5%, which is not worth it. This ignores the fact that some players might want to be on the safer / riskier side so realistically, you'd want a function (which is arbitrary to each player's risk avoidance level) of what is tradeoff between the two curves are worth, and find the minimum point on that curve. To make it even more complicated, take into account at which point does having 3+ starts in hand make an impact because 2 starters isn't bad, but 3 will almost guarantee you to lose if the extras are completely useless.
While getting value out of every card in your hand is important you also have to understand the 17% difference between 8 starters and 13 starters may decide whether you win or lose. Will more hand traps or supplementary engines help this? Possibly, but you always have to understand the value of the starters vs the potential gain of cutting them
Very interesting video, I don't think I have to mention anything that the comments have already said. I think a video idea would be on 2 card combo decks (like swordsoul, dinosaurs, salamangreat), I know it would be complicated due to the nature of each deck, but it can be considered an idea
Same with Pendulum, well I guess Monkeyboard allows 1 card Electrumyte/Beyond, but really it's the only one that's so simple, even the darkwurm engine isn't a one card Electrumyte/Beyond , maybe Symphonic Warriors could help in this situation, as one of their scale is discard 1 to summon 1 Symphonic Warrior from Deck.
Would love to see your approach to more complex modern decks like chimera branded who have several different kinds of starters that can interact with eachother in different ways if you open multiple different copies etc.
I would love to do that! I wanted to start relatively simple to see if this kind of content was something the community wanted before i deep dive into more nuanced situations but yes I really love intricacies and specific things like that :) . It seems there is a greater demand for this than i thought as it blew up overnight. Can't wait to make some more videos already working on one and even bought a new mike. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I would say minimum 16 Runick and whatever good bystials your format allows. Are you TCG or Master Duel? I'm going to guess TCG because MD has fountain at 1 and that's currently very unsustainable IMO. If your talking TCG then running 16+ Runic spells is imo mandatory because sometimes you need a 2 card combo with the runicks and finding 1 is not enough. I plan on doing a proper 2 card combo ratio video in the future. thanks for watching!
I would love to see an in depth analysis for going second decks as well, might be interesting to optimize for 1 board breaker+ 1 hand trap + 1 starter opening hands 😊
ooo! i like the idea of doing board breaker analysis. The format doesn't lead itself to BB right now because snake eyes so resilient to them so I wonder how I can format a BB vs HT video. BB decks tend to also go second so they would have that extra card also. Currently working on the gamma video, I think I will add something like this to my que of things to do. Thanks for the suggestion!
This is freaking amazing. I'm sharing this with all my ygo scene. I really hope you'll do more of these, hopefully with a better mic. Keep up the nice work!
Great video. Lots of interesting ideas for future videos in the end there. Particularly for diabellestar, there are a lot of engines that follow that formula of Searcher--->Monster that searches----->combo piece. (wanted-->diabellstar-->original, Opening-->aluber-->branded fusion, etc.) so that can be insightful for more than just one engine. Gamma, boardbreakers/handtraps, and jet synchron are also all interesting topics to potentially see in the future. Overall this is the type of content that has been missing in ygo, and this has a lot of potential to grow. I read that youve got a new mic so i look forward to the next one!
I really like the math of this game and have gone heavy into it every time I build a deck, but always had to work around what cards I had more so than a perfectly sound math built deck. As for diving into going second vs going first Ancient Warriors is a going second deck, can you give an optimal build for them? They appear to be loaded down with restrictions due to there effects saying "when" instead of "if" and having hard once per turn on all of there effects, yet pop up in master rank one on MD, as an outlier that only math could possibly explain. Also the maldocha deck, how does it keep performing well year after year where no other deck seems to be able to keep up with each meta. These two decks could just have a die hard fan base that through sheer will and skill forces them up the rank ladder, but how? I think math could also show what deck in MD highest rank has the best percentage in that rank compared to it's total player base. Such as if only one person plays an x-saber deck and it hits master rank one then it would have 100% of it's repersentation in master rank one, but if ten thousand other people play it and only hit diamond one then, that one player would not even be noticed. @@JessePerezStrategyGaming
Been Working on the gamma this whole week. That should be my next one and just got a better mike too so let me know if things sound better for that one . Thanks for watching.
This was a really informative video and I kept thinking about it after watching. It's nice to keep this in mind with my future deck building. Thank you for the great experience! For better videos I would recommend you to get an external microphone, maybe a Blue Snowball since they're budget friendly. Also maybe for a future video you could add timestamps so people can go back and re watch certain points.
Glad you enjoyed the video ! sorry about the mike situation i just bought a new mike and have it now. future vids going forward will sound much better! thanks for watching! Timestamps are a great idea as well i always like videos that have those. Thank you.
Loved the video and the information. Always thought about this but never had reasoning like this to back it up. Keep it up! Side note: the audio was a little choppy, maybe invest in a better mic or try putting the mic closer to the mouth
Thanks for the reply! This was the first video in my Mathmatically Yugioh Series, the rest of the videos have a new mic and much better audio. Thank you for watching!
Great, very informative video. What about 2 card combos? What are the best ratios to be sure to draw, say, drytron alpha and drytron zeta, as many times as possible while reducing the redundancy to a minimum? How many of the different searchers should we run? And how should we go about random engines like tear and dangers?
just released a video on 2 card combos! hope you find it helpful. It might answer these questions. as i go over the various different kind of 2 card combos. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Very useful video. I think mr. Prank-kids should be running 3x poly to make the additional names less bricky (i think thats what ppl normally do, anyway)
Thanks for watching, as an aside I think pure snake eyes is better than the fire king version anyways. With no bonfire i use chicken game in master duel as it draws and leaves a card on the field for diabellstar and spoils and level 1 cards to send but chicken game isnt available in TCG. Maybe try smallworld engine? You go -1 but still triggers Populus, can get a HT if needed, or find kurikari. I dont know what would a good bridge card be though as I haven't really given it that much thought. Anyway thanks again for the comment. Good luck with your deck let me know what solution you came up with.
One thing I have always been wondering is what the proper ratios are for a deck that has a two card combo. I have been able to quantify when there are two clear categories, but for something like spright (not counting starter) where any two cards make combo, I haven't figured out a formula for that. P.S. I love the music
Thanks! If there is a particular song you liked I can tell you the name. The 2 card combo has been suggested by some people now and I am going to look into that. I started the Gamma video so I think 2 card combo can be the next one after that. Thanks for watching !
I've used these theories to build my decks and, while it really helps, there's still a problem. It doesn't solve the powergap between meta and my decks 😕 There's an article writen by Johnny Li called "Starters and Extenders: How to Build Winning Yu-Gi-Oh Decks". Good vid ✌️
Thanks for recommending that read! I love these kind of articles that talk about a more detailed aspect of yugioh that isn't normally discussed. It's true also. We can have a great deck but it could get crushed by the meta deck that just do so much. To really win a tournament or large events over time we need both balance of skill, deckbuilding, and luck. I'm with you though, I personally love the challenge of defeating meta decks with Rogue or lower decks. Thanks for watching.
I play Traptrix, so many of the cards are one card starters to make a Sera for example. But running less than 3x of the good ones, I don't know if it would work the same way. I'll test it just in case.
Yes, i feel traptrix works very similar in that it needs that 1 NS. They do have additional extenders in the form of that trap card they were given so maybe run 9 monsters + the 3 trap cards that SS itself. I havent looked into their other spell support like their field and the one that functions as a draw 2 so maybe that also can warrant starting more monsters. Let me know what you come up with - the spell "traptantalizing tune" might make running more monsters fine.
Such a great video, as a math lover and a yugioh lover this is so cool. I did a couple projects myself with probability and yugioh so it's cool to see more content like this
that's y pure dragon maid is so bricky as the card that can "1 card full combo" is only chamber and parlor which only add up to 6 and need to bring a lot of brick as well 😢😢😢, your theory is very well applicated on situation like this but i want to know how about for 2 card full combo deck like sword soul tenyi,or deck like cyberse pile where every extender can basically also considered as a starter card if they can be normal summoned while having another extender in hand. Looking out for more of these content from you!!!
a popular topic being requested is 2 card combo guides so i am looking to do that. as well as 40 vs 60 cards. So great idea! thanks for the suggestion will be adding that for sure to the to do list. Thank you for watching and glad you liked the content. :)
This was a very interesting video. I’m hoping the next one is about the “proper ratios for Diabellestar engine”. Also, something that might have been somewhat left out of this analysis for simplicities sake is that drawing a starter + a brick is still a lot better than drawing no starters. The Kashtira prank-kids list seem to try to deal with this issue by including starters that don’t become bricks when drawn in multiples like in the pure prank-kids deck. A video diving into this topic could be interesting.
Thanks for watching! Yes, I just bought a real microphone! I was planning on making this video for what I thought was going to be like 40 people who like numbers and I can't believe how much people like math like me :) The next video im working on will have much better audio and even better visuals! Glad you enjoyed!
Personally I think ideal number of normal summons is 6-8 to maximize the chance to open exactly 1 and total starters 12-15 to maximize the chance of drawing exactly 2, this has generally worked very well for me in most deck with the exception of decks like runick and 60 card decks that break deckbuilding rules. Looking at your list for example it adheres to my general ratios since you're running 8 normal summons and 13 total starters(though you should probably be using the adventurer engine not the kash engine)
Thanks! I do hypergeometric probability. It sounds harder than what it actually is. Basically probability of certain cards coming up and when. Maybe I can do a separate video on how i do it to teach others how to do it.
Thank you for watching. Sorry about the mic quality. I recently bought a new mike as of your comment. All of my other vids past this one have the better mike quality issue fixed because of helpful comments like yours. Thank you for the comment and please let me know other suggestions if you see my other videos.
Yes! I have already started working on another video but 2 card combos are heavily suggested and i am looking to do that after this next video im working on. Thank you!
Just watched the video on normal summons with Alister. It was awesome. I love how you explained it and showed the graphs overlapping. Always good to have fellow statistics lovers.
Thats not the odds of seeing 1. Thats the odds of seeing ONLY 1 and no duplicates. For some decks with no extenders seeing a duplicate after the starter is a wasted card. Thats why the numbers go down in the second chart after 9.
For a deck like floow playing 8 or 9 what is the difference? which is better to get more chances of drawing 1 little bird but with low chances of drawing a lot of them?@@JessePerezStrategyGaming
@@OctyPFI For a deck like floo we need to talk about the starter of that deck which is robina or pseudo cards that get us to robina such as map/advent. Everything floo does tries to revolve around getting that bird into motion. Play max copies of map & advent to be able get whatever you need. However what floo needs most is consistency. That is why many floo decks fill to the brim as many Pot of X cards they can fit. This is effectively lowering their max number in their deck. I have seen some players even play "jack in the hand" but i personally think that card doesn't help against skilled opponents. Small world can get a special mention because if you already have the robina you can get a Handtrap, and if your missing robina you can get her. 3 robina, 3 map (unless your in MD which you can only play 1) 3 advent is 9 cards. But also add 3 pot cards, to lower max deck size, and a gold sarc for a 2 card combo to get robina if you have another bird in had should be enough consistency. What is more devastating than not having robina is bowever having a robina and the enemy has an ash blossom. maximizing counter handtraps you can use the same consistancy ratio format and try to have max called by the graves, crossouts (with ash in your deck for targets), and you will likely find yourself not having enough counter handtraps to stop ash. So what really holds a floo deck back isn't finding a robina but protecting it. So many decks will put 20 cards into finding the robina but cannot protect it. Which is why its better to stick with the lower ratios mentioned above and not play cards like "jack in the hand" when protecting the robina cards are better served in your deck. So its hard to know your situation exactly and what format your playing in but if your deciding to play more cards that essentially search for robina or cards that protect robina from handtraps in your deckbuilding process go for the ones that protect robina because there isn't enough protection for that poor bird.
This has been a suggestion that multiple people have suggested. I started on a Gamma video already, when that is done I am going to look into this and this is a great topic. Thanks for the suggestion and thanks for watching.
Unfortunately the idea behind having multiple Prank kids is that two gives you a better combo as the second one can be used to make a token or used as fusion. There is an actual stronger combo for when you have two+ prank kids in hand. I'm not discrediting the maths, just saying that sometimes focusing too much on the one card starter makes you forget the multiple interactions you can produce dispite having extra bricky starters. This is often seen in Kashtira and Unchained.
If we want to go into specifics of when 2+ prank kids in hand there are 2 scenarios i can see. 1 is where you have prank kids pranks the continuous spell in hand to bail you out if your normal summon into meow mu gets ashed to get a 2nd pk on the field , and the second is if you have the fusion spell panamonium or a poly card to fuse in rocket ride if your meow gets ashed. These are 3 card combos which i feel are unreliable and clunky and personally and mathematically think its better to run 9 starters in that scenario and another engine like kash/adventure/dpe or something to support it. Your comment does bring up a great point that there are scenarios we should be aware of in many decks where that extra card can be beneficial. Thank you for watching and providing extra insight in this discussion! I love more in depth deep comments like these about the metagame.
Very interesting! In addition to what others have stated about second kid actually extending and running poly, I would like to touch on Upstart Goblin. While it is true that it improves consistency in a vacuum, there are more factors to consider. First off, if you are going second and your approach is running handtraps, then opening upstart hurts because it could have been a handtrap. This is not relevant if you were going to run an engine piece instead, as that wouldnt be a handtrap either, or if running board breakers since nobody is going to negate upstart so you get the draw anyways. Another thing to consider is that in formats where droll us prevalent, you could end up ending your turn with upstart, so it's probably not worth then. Fix your mic and keep up the good work!
Great comment! I also want to add more to this Upstart discussion point. Upstart should be the last thing you do unless it is the only thing you can do. that means you likely had 0 starters, 0 fieldspells, and a hand full of handtraps (which isn't nessearily a bad thing). Ideally if you had a starter you would full combo and upstart at end of turn and in PK its esentially a draw 2 (1 for upstart, 1 for PK pranks continous spell and because you milled so much main deck PK stuff your likely going to get an additional 1 HT from that. But I could see how droll is a double edge sword in alot of formats but the outcome would still be the same if all you had was a field spell to search as well you would still be getting drolled. If you are going to run 15+starters then running additional polys does help mitigate when you double up but then its a 3 card combo and things start getting really clunky. Thats why I think the 9 starter - and add another engine (Adventure/Kash/DPE) is slightly superior than a 15 pure engine. but again we are talking very small percentages The real skill will come from how you can play the game and but it does feel good when your homework pays off. Just got a new mike also my next video should be way better! Thanks for watching and providing a really good in depth comment. Love discussions and points like these!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Opening upstart really sucks if you put it in over a handtrap (going second), but if you are using it for engine then it really doesn't make a difference. Prank kids not only use poly as an extender (1 kid + poly = full combo + rank1-4), they can also use it to play past disruptions (2 kid+ poly beats ash, 1kid + poly beats other handtraps). Playing pure ensures your engine to set up its board, allowing all your non-engine to be handtraps and ensuring you win the grind game. This is of course much more nuanced and tied to the meta game than simple (or complex) consistency calculations, but just wanted to throw that out there. Glad to hear you have a new mic, can't wait! Also love that you engage in civil discussion with your community 💜
Great content. I'd be very interested in any/all future vid topics mentioned @ the end. You also should mention the drawbacks of running multiple engines.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming if you want my 1 all time favourite, it's gotta be Clear Wing + Speedroids. (They also work well with general wind support, or wind bosses like Baronne) But there are a ton that I like. Traptrix for example, I remember the time when there were only 4 main deck monsters, and I already liked them back than; Stardust / Synchron decks, Red Dragon Archfiend / Resonator decks, Blackwings, some of the old classics, Dark Magician and Blue-Eyes, some solitaire, in the form of Exodia variants, like Treasure Panda + synchros, or Royal Magical Library, really there are a ton of options. Prank Kids was just simply not one of them. Heck, in Master Duel, I also built a surprisingly effective if not handtrapped, Reversal Quiz FTK deck.
Glad you liked this video! This was one of the first ones I made too. My audio was bad and I was just learning many of the ins and outs of my software editor. I can't wait to show you how these videos evolved and bring you even better stuff! Thanks for watching!
Hi dude, found out about ur channel today and im loving it, even sent to my math teacher cuz he helped me with some probabilities before, also the big think about cards like chiken game and upstart in modern yugioh is that they take a non engine space that could be hand traps so even if it makes the deck more consistent in theory it doesn't consider the actual gameplay specually when you need to go second and actually find your ash or veiler or nib so what's ur take about it considering this info?
Glad you liked the staticual content! On the topic of draw cards, If they are taking the spot of a handtrap then they shouldn't be run. This is in addition to the 15+ handtraps. For example in Master duel in my current snake eye engine, i I run 18 handtraps and 2 chicken game. The chicken game draws and acts as fodder for diabelle star, ash, oak or sinful spoils. So it has mega utility and is not taking up a handtrap spot because I'm running all the handtraps that I want/need. In sky strikers upstart not only draws early but now counts as an additional spell etc. You can still run 15+ handtraps and 3 upstart in skystikers. Pot of extravagance, pot of prosperity same thing they are not run in place of a handtraps but to get advantage with more control oriented decks. Sometimes though, These decks tend to sometimes even forgo handtraps and run more blowout cards installed like evenly, dark ruler etc. It's all relative and must be consider led in the deckbuilding process. Upstarts/chicken games shouldnt be taking up a handtrap spot but rather a flex/tech positions. I am happy you liked the content! I have alit more statistical videos and do hypergeometric distribution probability so your stats teacher would enjoy thos kind of stuff. Thanks for watching!
I'd like to see what you think the optimal Swordsoul Tenyi ratios are. Also, if you do make videos going through mathematically optimal ratios I think it could be useful to suggest cards that aren't part of the standard decklist but are still very useful if you wanna spice your deck up.
Yes - absolutely correct, which is why I suggest we supplement with an additional engine that doesn't conflict in this senario with normal summon like Kashtira/adventure/dpe to add and additional 4-7 starter cards, its just out of archtype starters and then in the scenario when you do draw both you are unaffected and have 2 archtypes on board. That is why PK and adventure usually go very well together. Its all about maximizing every card in your hand to provide value and minimize the chance of things just clogging up space. Modern yugioh has evolved so much where most games end by turn 3 so maximizing your hand is critical. I really appreciate you watching and commenting to continue this discussion!
What you've ignored here, is that you now have to play the "bad cards" from both decks. Cards like riseheart, scareclaw lash, birth and thesis, as well as pranks and pandemonium. All 6 of those cards are not 1 card starters, and they actually NEED you to draw them with another card from their engine. You now risk having wonky hands which include combinations of these cards without the starters that pair with them. Also - it is crazy that terraforning is not in your list. It literally searches any kashtira or any prankid, so it's arguably the best searcher you can play.
Terraforming is banned in Master Duel where his deck is based so I matched his restrictions. Terraforming is a great card. To further your point, most of these 'bad cards" also lock me into either only prank kids or only xyz. It is a good point to make when balancing the pros and cons. This has more to do with the power of the deck and a reason why PK is not tiered currently while more meta decks have less bad cards. Adventure engine if fully unbanned would be a better pick then the Kash engine for the reasons you mentioned but its also still hurt hard in Master duel. Funny enough some of it was unbanned this last ban list. Thank you for watching and commenting these valuable counterpoints very important and good discussion points.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Unfortunately pretty much every 1 card starter card requires you to play a "bad card" somewhere in your deck. So combining engines does usually mean playing more bad cards.
Do pure going 2nd decks would like to the see what helps in turning the tables. Please dont do snake eyes or diabellstar or tier 0 decks they dont need more sauce 😔. I appreciate your pov and expertise you will be my secret weapon in the future. Subscribed keep it up man
Its an interesting topic for sure. Going 2nd decks currently in the snake eye format i believe are going to have a hard time because snake eyes can play through so much. Triple Tactics Talent does go hard on the apollousa so a pure going 2nd deck should have at the very least 2+ of those or at the very least 1 of them and 2+ Triple Tac Thrust to search it. Nib can kind of hurt some hand/variants can play around it. Veiler and imperm are the best bets for the summons. So really it would have to be a going 2nd deck with handtraps which is kind of weird because i personally think boardbreakers and handtraps dont mix well because of the anti synergy. I guess at the end of the day it would have to be deck dependant. Are you using going 2nd decks like mikanko that are trying to OTK or kastira control variants. Are you using TCG or masterduel? Some questions i need to consider also to give better suggestions. also, thanks for watching! really appreciate the love.
Whats crazy is this is one of my first Yugioh vids ever so its nice to always come back and see how far the channel has come. Since this I have gotten better at editing, recieved better computer, better mike, better sound and learned more tricks too. Heres to many more vids :)
can u build an excel table where you can insert ur decklist and it calculates the starting chances and +1(going 2nd) chances depending on ratios? this would be insanely handy. maybe with an weighting function for starters idk
I like to use this stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric hypergeometric probability calculator. Its sounds more complicated than it looks but esentally population size is deck size, successes are the amount of cards your looking for, sample size is hand size, successes in sample is how many your looking to get in your hand. hope that helps! thanks for watching!
VS is so great of a deck because most of the skill comes from the deckbuilding process getting your attributes correctly is another factor to balance along with starters. I would consider Razen the main real starter of that deck so I would try to get him out with about 12-15 cards to support him. Rota, infernoble arms durendal, stake your soul are the spells I would use. Wouldn't use small world cuz that might mess up attribute ratios. Maybe a pot or 2 depending on the format you are playing The rest would try to fill with monsters, handtraps and different attributes. Good luck with your VS deck I find it's often hard to find enough starters for that deck in general because of all the balancing factors but admittedly I haven't playtested it enough to give you the best advice solely for VS as an archtype. Good luck and thanks for watching
Your absolutely right i should have put them in there! I am planning on making a 60 card vs 40 card deck video in the future i think i will put that data there. Thank you for that suggestion. I like 60 card pile decks too I can run more searchable utility and more hard bricks becuase I see them less often. But to help you out i have some numbers to hopefully make up for it. Finding a certain card you have a 3 of (like a handtrap) in your opening 5 card hand is 23.33% compared to the 33.7% of a 40 card deck. 18 Starters are needed to get to a 84.42% consistency ratio. Your odds of seeing a 1 brick (like a Driver) drop from 12.5 in a 40 card deck to 8.33% Hope that helps for now :) Thanks for watching!
Madolches 👉👈 Please I’ve been playing them for years and would love to see your mathematical input on how to run them. They’re the only deck I ever vibe with, even way back when we used MX-Saber Invoked
Can you do a starter math video for snake eyes. Ps master duel player here. Like the video I would be interested to see how you would angle that video seeing that hand traps are semi starters with sinful spoils. My deck feels really solid but I would be interested to see what the math says Kinda in between a third poplar or another hand trap or chicken game which is basically a better upstart for this deck because it can be used as cost I want your perspective on poplar and just starters in general because in snake eyes it often times feels bad to not have 2 starters because of one gets interrupted then it feels like you’re in top deck mode with a bunch of handtraps. And if you don’t open a second starter you either can’t keep playing turn one or possibly even turn 3 because if you don’t draw one you’re screwed. So what math would you like for this deck. 2 starters ? One starter? What percentage to have 2 hand traps etc. let’s see what you got
I love the sinful spoils engine so that would be great. I am looking to do a 2 card combo video after the current one i am working on the gamma video. Going to go indepth on snake eyes seems very fun. Thanks for watching!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming thinking it would be a really good jump start to your channel seeing how popular snake eyes is in every format. Not to tell you how to prioritize your channel but if you make the most popular content first then more eyes will probably be on your other videos as soon as they come out due to more subs and traction. Snake eyes has a lot of variables with searchers. Engine starters. Heck even some players played lullaby of obedience which has been awesome on practice. Would you even play 40 cards with your math. Looking forward to it
Apologies :x . My newer videos have much better quality as I went out and got a premium mike after hearing all the feedback and encouragement. I do appreciate watching as much as you did! Thank you. I plan on potentially upgrading and remaking this video with the improved audio since I got my mic.
Well, here's the thing: The video is technically correct, but I think you have glossed over how subjective this is. For example, Jesse Kotton is a big fan of running 5 of these so-called HOPT starters. This is becausd adding additional cards after 5 is less effective and increases your chance of drawing 2 MORE than drawing 1. This also, I think, glosses over your opponent existing. Running more engine in cases where drawing more engine is resulting in a hand that is more resilient to hand traps, for example.
great comment and you make a great point. Yeah i should have really hammered my point better that I think its better to run 9 starters and an additional engine like Kash with 5 starters. Than to run 15 starters in 1 engine. there is sooo much nuances in yugioh and it makes hard to use analyze the exact quality but thats what i aim to do and we need these these kind of comments because sometimes the best play or best deckbuilding isn't what's mathematically the best.
The formulas for starters are the same as the handtraps. You would want to run at least 12 for consistancy to see at least 1. But the only other factor is that you don't really mind drawing multiple of handtraps so even going up to 20+ is fine so more than half your deck is HT gives all your cards 50% chance to be HT which would mean an average of 2 or 3 HT in your starting hand at I'd you put in 20. In one recent Meta Snakeyee deck I used 22 handtraps. Also I don't usually mix Boardbreakers and HTs together because they sometimes conflict and have anti synergy but I do run a copy of TTTalents and sometimes a TTThurst package. So that's all personal preference and choice.
Played playground yugioh in high school. Watched original anime, GX, and Vrains. Played forbidden memories, some random GX gamboy game, capsule monsters, and my all time fav Duelist of the Roses were some games i played. Duel links player when that came out and stuck with that for a year. And Master duel for 2 years. Probably took me about 3 months to fully understand all the additional summoning things because I consider myself a yugiboomer. But very familiar with all the games and can play at the highest Master I no problem now. Time and a 9-5 is the only thing keeping me from getting a top in the duelist cups.
Don't replace the starters with handtraps. Replace the starters with other starters from a diffrent archtype that won't conflict. So you still can run 15 starters just not ones that conflict with HOPT effects. So for example i took the 15 prank kids and made it 9 prank kids with 6 Kashtira starters so my math of getting a starter engine was still very high but there was no conflicts, also there is a chance you get both engines going. This is why adventure is also very good in PK as well. Diabellestar engine offers the same support for snake eyes in that it acts as a seperate not conflicting engine to hyper support their consistency. Thanks for the comment btw!
My issue with the maths did in the video is that you dont get to play if you dont draw a starter,i can have a hand of 5 staples and that is a good as a dead hand I would rather have a dead card in hand 20% if the times if it means i get to play 30% more often Also this only applicable for decks that only have 1 card starters with barely any extension such as Prank Kids where the deck's ability is entirely relied on its normal summon while a deck like Mannadium where starters and extenders are virtually the same the math gets very skewed Additionally on the prank kids example, because they play the fusion spell the math on "having the ability to play" gets so much more complicated than "its just a 30%" Upstart is somewhat fake consistency,while yes you have your deck effectively becomes 39 it also means you see less hand traps and direct starters/staples which is a lot more important in the pace of the modern game There is a reason why 12-15 are considered as the general ratio for starters in each decks while any deck with less than 12 starters has to have ways to get to those 12 starters via multiple cards or extra consistency like the pots, the value of being able to start playing the game is much higher than having 1 starter 4 staples While this is a decent video, the maths and reasoning are both very shallow and only applicable to situation like Prank Kids which contains 0 extension
I think the math on smaller engines and the bricks vs non starter ratio makes them worth it or not, adventure comes to mind where you need 1 fateful, 1 rider, 1 dracoback, but you play 3 rite and 3 water enchantress which makes it a 6-3 starter to brick ratio, while in md before this recent banlist rite was at 2 and enchantress was at 1 for a 3-3 starter to brick ratio, at what point would it be worth those bricks, would enchantress at 2 truly make a difference in md with adventure now at a 4-3 ratio
Upstart has so much utility but it is not all powerful. I should clarify in certain situations ehen it is good and when it's not. Upstart is good when you are happy with your handtrap ratio, and but not your starter consistancy. If you are opening too many starters then upstart is actually good to have. This allows you to combo with your main starter then use upstart at the end once you deck thinned with your combo to potentially get a good handtrap or utility card at the end. On the flip side, Upstart can also be used to find consistency if your certain archtype deck has too few starters as it essentially makes your decks a thinner deck. Where upstart is bad is when you have starter consistancy but replace a handtrap for it or put upstart in just to put an upstart in. Upstart can be drolled,negated and ashed and even the lifepoint gain can come up in certain matchups. So it has its weaknesses. The decks that hate upstart the most are milling decks. If your playing a milling deck upstart will likely clog your cards that go to the GY. The decks that love upstart are the ones that get additional utility from it.Sky strikers Love upstart as it's a draw and a spell in the GY. I play both TCG and Master Duel. Currently I love chicken game at 2 copies for snake eyes in Master duel for the draw and stays on the field for the cost of snake eyes effects. Finding if upstart has utility in your deck can go a long way as well so it's not so simple black amd white. I hope this helped. Thanks for watching!
Would it be possible for you to share a script for this video (and future videos) maybe along with the slides (or just the graphs)? I find it easier to reference something that's written than comb through the video, also for this particular one it's sometimes hard to hear you tho I see from the comments that you're working on a mic solution.
Thanks! Yeah I am planning on doing a bunch of content like this. Please keep me updated on any ideas you would like to see as well. Currently working on the gamma video and should be out by Monday. Got a new mike and improving editing as well so Im just as excited as you :)
Cool video, as a TCG player I remember seeing this come up during the tier 0 brave pranks format in TCG when you ran the deck w magicians souls etc. iirc the ratio was 11 normal summons in 46 cards Also, yeah I gotta agree with the other commenters, the mic situation is holding you back
Apologies this was my first vid in the series I took alot of the comments in consideration and got a premium mic for my future videos. These suggestions is what makes my content better thank you so much for watching!
I am a big fan of this deckbuilding theory. Dan Parker wrote an article on tcgplayer titled "How Many Normal Summons Should You Play in Yu-Gi-Oh?" Although the article specifically referenced normal summons, the logic applies to other cards, including other forms of engine and even bricks. He provided a spreadsheet that shows there are two important deckbuilding breakpoints to consider when going first, 5 and 8 "copies" or "roles" of a card. These numbers are based on how much the success condition(1 copy in hand) and failure condition (2+ copies) percentages rise with each additional "copy" you add to a deck. The choice of 5 or 8 depends on how important you think it is to see the desired card, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 5 when dealing with undesirable cards such as going second cards main decked in Master Duel or bricks that you are forced to run (like Driver).
Jesse Kotton made a YT video titled "The Heart Of The Cards is a Load of Rubbish! How to Improve at Yugioh #1" which also deals with this topic.
great and interesting video, but could be improved a lot still if you can work on the audio, perhaps stop the background music when you don't have a good mic?
Great feedback seems to be a common suggestion, just bought a new mike ! Thank you for still watching
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming
yup audio matters a lot, whether people get annoyed quickly or not.
Some things you really need to keep in mind before you start focusing on card ratios (bringing it up here because i didnt feel like it was given enough thought)
1) Your goal generally when first building a deck is to focus on the synergy of your cards. Whether or not you're playing a pure list, combining archetypes or building a pile deck is irrelevant when it comes to this. You should be focusing on card quality and how compatible your cards are with each other when designing the initial drafts of your deck, then work backwards as you try to make it more consistent and fit in more interlocking combo lines. Generally, this requires repeated testing and reiteration given that (as he mentioned) each archetype and combination of archetypes has a different ideal ratio of starters, not to mention that the goal of your deck if your building it from scratch will also greatly influence this number. That being said, it doesnt hurt to know common starter ratios for your archetype to save time developing the early drafts of your deck. This is where refering to netdecks can help if you're working with an archetype you've never played before.
2) This goes a bit into my first point, but if you're preparing for a regionals or something, you shouldn't combine certain archetypes if the combination isn't as strong, flexible and/or consistent as the pure list. To use Snake-Eye as an example since the tier 0 format helps to simplify this point: its really up for debate whether the Fire King variant is better than the Pure Snake-Eye list, and i've even seen some cases for including R-ACE as well. Overall your habits and knowledge as a player are generally going to enforce how you build your deck, and you need to take all that into consideration as well before focusing on the numbers.
More than anything, optimizing ratios should be the last step of your deck building process (along with adding and removing cards to try and fit in more interactions and interlocking combo lines). Deck building is just a highly reiterative process.
Overall though, i do think a series like this would be great when focusing on use cases. Doing regular uploads over staples or a single archetype would be VERY handy, and its an easily repeatable video format because archetypes change all the time due to Yugioh being an ever-evolving game. Content creators like GGYGO do a decent job of stuff like that, but we really do need more analysts like this in the community going over more specific deck building disciplines.
Gonna go watch the Gamma video now since i'm curious if it mentions anything about Delta.
What a great in depth response to my video. You have made many points and added a great layer of depth to this discussion and i hope people tuning into this video see your response as it warrants many views.
For point/paragraph 1, its interesting to see how different people deck build. When initially testing I personally usually overstuff my deck and then cut slowly 1 by 1 during testing until I find a good base. Its really true that it does take many hours of playtesting to get it right and you cannot get it right from the get go because of all of the nuances that go into deckbuilding and considering the current meta.
For paragraph 2, i remember trying to make my own snake eye decklist work. I added a dogmatika package, I made the deck maticulously so the ratios would be perfect... then when i played the deck it just played awful and pure would have been better. Its funny, but yes even if you make the best ratios your deck can still suffer from other factors.
Overall, great points and i truly thank you for your in depth comments. I will try to be more detailed and tackle nuances like this more often but I will always forget to cover something.
Thanks you for watching!
Just an adittion; for marincess you want one card in hand but additional names can make you play around hand traps or make safer lines so i would say 15 works fine for marincess
I love marincess they can combo so hard. I personally don't think that you would nee that many but after thinking about it they do have some cards that stand out that make the 15 a good number. Sea maiden and sea horse SS for free. Pasculus can SS a marincess from hand. So yes I think running more marincess can be a good thing for extending into more link plays too. I was just thinking their barebones minimum combo of normal summon 1 marincess that can get you the whole combo. Thanks for adding that addition I agree.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Yeah. Some Marincess starters serve as both normal summons and extenders. 15 names + 2 Dive + 1 Battle Ocean is a total of 18 engine which leaves 22 slots for non-engine. Which is quite a lot.
i tried icebarriers + atlanteans + icejade and tried to fit 40-42 cards
The idea was to use of 1 deep sea misntrel eff to discard water then drop one hand trap from oponent's hand, or even can serve as a handtrap bait when i discard one atlantean dragoons (get ash) then i can feel a little safer with the ice barrier engine, also can help me to trigger mirror mage from graveyard, and it's effect doesnt trigger chain (only after deep sea minstrel's effect, so i cannot be ashed, but it be banished in that moment.)
The engine doesnt allow me to have -1, that's why i put 3. If i use revealer's effect, i can also discard to apply its effect... then get another, or deep sea minstrel, or 1 atlantean prince, or even 1 HEXA. I put only one atlantean prince (because its once per turn effect) it can be discarded to summon a dragoon, later it can be SS by link-2 marincess if i want...
i put:
1 copy of icejade aerigine lv 3,
1 tremora lv5
2 copies of ram aerigine lv 7.
1 icejade spell to search, you may include the once that SS (its not usefull for first turn games tho...)
1 of Wayne (can be summoned with tremora)
1 of Raiho
Georgius can be put at 1-2, but never 3, it becomes brick easly... its common for ice barrier decks with around 15-20 ice barrier monsters which is too much, if you consider "ice barrier medallion", its a great searcher, a joker, it doesnt limit level of your monster you want, so you can be safe to put less IB monsters.
1 ice barrier trap
1 freezing chains
3 medallions...
3 revealer
1 hexa
2-3 mirror master (now with your video i can considering 2 instead of 3, same for ram aerigine)
1 speaker
1 deep sea diva
1 atlantean prince
3 atlantean dragoons
1 deep sea minstrel
1 one for one
1 gameciel kaiju (searchable by ice barrier trap)
The rest is adapted to its necessity, hand traps at number of 11-13
There is a sea serpent searcher spell (once per turn) with cost to banish one water from GY...
Also this deck list is not updated with the late support for water with new atlanteans... there are some supports with SS from deck, which is a great help for Icebarrier...unless you make a pure atlantean deck with mermails, but i personally love the ice barrier.
The idea and practice of this actual deck (not updated from the newest pack), was always ending with 3 lv 10 boss or having synchro crock + 1-2 bosses at field. Always summoning Deep sea prima donna, diving one of bosses the benefit of untargetable eff (scapes many effects with target from meta, except forbbiden chalice, tributes, super poplymerization)
the cons about it is that the extradeck is short... there are great cards, but sometimes you cannot fit graydle dragon, its it or S:P. 4 destructions + SS after self destroy or one + two banishments that is very flexible? i Tend to use S:P instead.
If the newest pack of atlanteans/mermail enters, i may apply the math (not use 2-3 copies for pure mermail/atlanteans setup), but make every card in hand useful.
Big ups to this vid, I'm a big numbers person as well, and have been a huge advocate for running 2 ofs and mishmashing archetypes. Rn I've been cooking up a pile, and I've gotten the ratios to a point where I borderline never brick, and I don't run any pot cards or wanteds, and only 1 bonfire. Redundancy is only good if it's for multiple steps in a combo, if you open up what's functionally 4 snake eyes ash, you're gonna have a bad time into hand traps. Unfortunately my deck doesn't just have 1 cards starts, it also has a slew of 2 card starters, so the numbers get very complicated very fast. But regardless I love these type of videos, keep em up! Outside of the mic thing which is a bunch of ppl already brought up, I would also say either turn down the music or don't put music when discussing analytical things like this just cause it can be distracting. Regardless tho, great vid!
Thank you! I literally just made another video and got a new mike so let me know how the audio is in that one. Unfortunately, I still left the music in hopefully with the mike there is a better balance with the quality. I am happy you enjoyed this video and I love pile decks as well. I am thinking of doing a 2 card combo in the future as well! Thanks for watching and love your added comments about running 2 cards and multiple archetypes.
If you keep up content like this your channel will explode. Yugioh needs more content like you and HakunaMyData. I think you’ll pick up in popularity, especially if you get noticed by a popular UA-camr or streamer. Good luck!
Agreed, the effort is there, the information is there, the quality (better editing, sound design, etc,) will come with time, as will the viewers.
Love the more statistical/theoretical side of Yugioh you've brought forth. Nice vid and looking forward to more.
very intresting serie, i hope this continues
Glad you are enjoying the series! Let me know if there is any statistical topic you would like me to cover! Thanks for watching.
I feel like prank kids is a unique case because the starters are mutually exclusive. In most decks I've played opening multiple starters is often better than opening one because it leads to a hand that is more resilient to interruption. I don't play much master duel but I do play TCG regularly and in a format where cards like crossout and called by are often not worth playing, extra starters that can double as extenders are very good.
That would be starter vs extender
@@xckjyt in most decks I've played the starters are also extenders. For example in snake eye fire king opening 3 starters and 2 non-engine is often better than opening 1 starter and 4 non-engine. When every starter is also an extender then there is no downside to opening multiple.
@@StarWagiI think you missed the last part where he explains that you play less starters in order to fit in more starters from other engines.
Like how your deck snake eyes only plays only like 7 snake eyes starters to fit in other starters like T.G limiter removal and/or D/D savant. You only want to draw one starter card from each engine because of hard once per turn effects.
@@kozmoman1066 i get what you are trying to say but thats not really the case. In snake eye fire king unless you draw duplicates of a starter then every starter you draw past the first is an extender. Cutting starters for engines hurts your ability to play because you will have less resilient hands and will lose space for non engine which is incredibly bad in the current format. Not to mention most people(including myself) also play the fire king engine for a batter grind game and some extra resilience. 1 snake eye starter is not enough this format you need to see at least 2 preferably 3.
I’d love to hear you give an analysis on a pendulum strategy. Very few pendulum strategies have 2 card combos. And most 1 card combos to give at least 2 scales are not pendulum cards.
I think a 2 card combo video is going to be in the works soon as well! I love this suggestion btw. Thank you! Pendulums, Fusions, and Rituals decks are very similar in this regard in that they need alot of 2 cards sometimes to get going so this is something I will look into. Thanks for watching.
A couple of things - first is that some decks are extremely weak when they don't see a starter and lack synergies to run a back up engine and so have to maximise seeing a starter (hence why we see them intentionally flood their hand). The second is moreso on Upstart Goblin - it conflicts really badly with handtraps as drawing a handtrap off Upstart Goblin going second is essentially a -1 (the same could be said of Pot cards drawing 2, but the odds of drawing 2 handtraps and failing to "replace" your Pot are much lower than drawing 1 with Upstart Goblin, so most decks that can run a draw 2 pot do so).
I love compétitif Yu-Gi-Oh discussions
This is a fantastic idea, and I'd be extremely intersted in an analysis of going 2nd. There was a small audio issue where your microphone occaisonally cut out, but great video. Can't wait for more!
Just bought a new mike! - Thanks for the suggestion! Looking into doing 2 card combos and going 2nd as well. Thanks for watching
love data and stats; that being said, the main goal is to have a winning hand, which means having multiple starters is better than no starters. So ignoring functional values - there are two curves and you want to find the intersection of the two curve. One curve being incremental (derivative of your 1 starter curve) % change of getting 1 starter, the other being incremental % change (derivative) of your dup starters curve. The point of intersection will tell you at which point (# of starts in deck) does it make more sense to run the risk of having no starters than to have more starters brick in hand? This is to say, increasing 1 more starter will only get you 2% more chance of getting a starter, but will increase your brick change by 5%, which is not worth it.
This ignores the fact that some players might want to be on the safer / riskier side so realistically, you'd want a function (which is arbitrary to each player's risk avoidance level) of what is tradeoff between the two curves are worth, and find the minimum point on that curve.
To make it even more complicated, take into account at which point does having 3+ starts in hand make an impact because 2 starters isn't bad, but 3 will almost guarantee you to lose if the extras are completely useless.
Great video man, looking forward to more of this series
While getting value out of every card in your hand is important you also have to understand the 17% difference between 8 starters and 13 starters may decide whether you win or lose. Will more hand traps or supplementary engines help this? Possibly, but you always have to understand the value of the starters vs the potential gain of cutting them
Very interesting video, I don't think I have to mention anything that the comments have already said. I think a video idea would be on 2 card combo decks (like swordsoul, dinosaurs, salamangreat), I know it would be complicated due to the nature of each deck, but it can be considered an idea
Same with Pendulum, well I guess Monkeyboard allows 1 card Electrumyte/Beyond, but really it's the only one that's so simple, even the darkwurm engine isn't a one card Electrumyte/Beyond , maybe Symphonic Warriors could help in this situation, as one of their scale is discard 1 to summon 1 Symphonic Warrior from Deck.
Would love to see your approach to more complex modern decks like chimera branded who have several different kinds of starters that can interact with eachother in different ways if you open multiple different copies etc.
I would love to do that! I wanted to start relatively simple to see if this kind of content was something the community wanted before i deep dive into more nuanced situations but yes I really love intricacies and specific things like that :) . It seems there is a greater demand for this than i thought as it blew up overnight. Can't wait to make some more videos already working on one and even bought a new mike. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Proper ratio for runick and proper ratio for bystials this format
I would say minimum 16 Runick and whatever good bystials your format allows. Are you TCG or Master Duel?
I'm going to guess TCG because MD has fountain at 1 and that's currently very unsustainable IMO. If your talking TCG then running 16+ Runic spells is imo mandatory because sometimes you need a 2 card combo with the runicks and finding 1 is not enough.
I plan on doing a proper 2 card combo ratio video in the future.
thanks for watching!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Yeah I meant TCG sorry for not clarifying. Thanks for the explanation. The math you do was fairly interesting.
I would love to see an in depth analysis for going second decks as well, might be interesting to optimize for 1 board breaker+ 1 hand trap + 1 starter opening hands 😊
ooo! i like the idea of doing board breaker analysis. The format doesn't lead itself to BB right now because snake eyes so resilient to them so I wonder how I can format a BB vs HT video. BB decks tend to also go second so they would have that extra card also. Currently working on the gamma video, I think I will add something like this to my que of things to do. Thanks for the suggestion!
This is freaking amazing. I'm sharing this with all my ygo scene. I really hope you'll do more of these, hopefully with a better mic. Keep up the nice work!
Yes I just bought a new one. Looks like this video blew up over night so I will make the next one even better. Thank you!
Great video. Lots of interesting ideas for future videos in the end there. Particularly for diabellestar, there are a lot of engines that follow that formula of Searcher--->Monster that searches----->combo piece. (wanted-->diabellstar-->original, Opening-->aluber-->branded fusion, etc.) so that can be insightful for more than just one engine. Gamma, boardbreakers/handtraps, and jet synchron are also all interesting topics to potentially see in the future. Overall this is the type of content that has been missing in ygo, and this has a lot of potential to grow. I read that youve got a new mic so i look forward to the next one!
Great video. A lot to learn here, but you've gotta' work on your mic situation, at several points, your voice cut out.
Thanks just bought a new mike - next vid should be much better quality in sound thank you
I really like the math of this game and have gone heavy into it every time I build a deck, but always had to work around what cards I had more so than a perfectly sound math built deck. As for diving into going second vs going first Ancient Warriors is a going second deck, can you give an optimal build for them? They appear to be loaded down with restrictions due to there effects saying "when" instead of "if" and having hard once per turn on all of there effects, yet pop up in master rank one on MD, as an outlier that only math could possibly explain. Also the maldocha deck, how does it keep performing well year after year where no other deck seems to be able to keep up with each meta. These two decks could just have a die hard fan base that through sheer will and skill forces them up the rank ladder, but how? I think math could also show what deck in MD highest rank has the best percentage in that rank compared to it's total player base. Such as if only one person plays an x-saber deck and it hits master rank one then it would have 100% of it's repersentation in master rank one, but if ten thousand other people play it and only hit diamond one then, that one player would not even be noticed. @@JessePerezStrategyGaming
I'm very interested in the boardbreaker vs hand trap and also the gamma video. Please do more. I love the math perspective.
Been Working on the gamma this whole week. That should be my next one and just got a better mike too so let me know if things sound better for that one . Thanks for watching.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming will do! Super hype to watch it and thanks for the work you're doing for the community
This was a really informative video and I kept thinking about it after watching. It's nice to keep this in mind with my future deck building.
Thank you for the great experience!
For better videos I would recommend you to get an external microphone, maybe a Blue Snowball since they're budget friendly.
Also maybe for a future video you could add timestamps so people can go back and re watch certain points.
Glad you enjoyed the video ! sorry about the mike situation i just bought a new mike and have it now. future vids going forward will sound much better! thanks for watching!
Timestamps are a great idea as well i always like videos that have those. Thank you.
Loved the video and the information. Always thought about this but never had reasoning like this to back it up. Keep it up!
Side note: the audio was a little choppy, maybe invest in a better mic or try putting the mic closer to the mouth
Thanks for the reply! This was the first video in my Mathmatically Yugioh Series, the rest of the videos have a new mic and much better audio. Thank you for watching!
Great, very informative video. What about 2 card combos? What are the best ratios to be sure to draw, say, drytron alpha and drytron zeta, as many times as possible while reducing the redundancy to a minimum? How many of the different searchers should we run? And how should we go about random engines like tear and dangers?
just released a video on 2 card combos! hope you find it helpful. It might answer these questions. as i go over the various different kind of 2 card combos. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Very useful video. I think mr. Prank-kids should be running 3x poly to make the additional names less bricky (i think thats what ppl normally do, anyway)
Great video! I hope to see more guides like this in the future.
Glad you liked it! Thats the plan! Been working on another vid so should be done by Monday with new audio mike also.
I am currently working on making budget snake eyes fire king with no wanted or bonfire less bricky. Interesting video.
Thanks for watching, as an aside I think pure snake eyes is better than the fire king version anyways. With no bonfire i use chicken game in master duel as it draws and leaves a card on the field for diabellstar and spoils and level 1 cards to send but chicken game isnt available in TCG. Maybe try smallworld engine? You go -1 but still triggers Populus, can get a HT if needed, or find kurikari. I dont know what would a good bridge card be though as I haven't really given it that much thought.
Anyway thanks again for the comment. Good luck with your deck let me know what solution you came up with.
Veiler would be a bridge starting w/ diabellestar or any ghostgirl ht/nibiru so you probably dont need to over think it
One thing I have always been wondering is what the proper ratios are for a deck that has a two card combo. I have been able to quantify when there are two clear categories, but for something like spright (not counting starter) where any two cards make combo, I haven't figured out a formula for that.
P.S. I love the music
Thanks! If there is a particular song you liked I can tell you the name. The 2 card combo has been suggested by some people now and I am going to look into that. I started the Gamma video so I think 2 card combo can be the next one after that. Thanks for watching !
I've used these theories to build my decks and, while it really helps, there's still a problem. It doesn't solve the powergap between meta and my decks 😕
There's an article writen by Johnny Li called "Starters and Extenders: How to Build Winning Yu-Gi-Oh Decks".
Good vid ✌️
Thanks for recommending that read! I love these kind of articles that talk about a more detailed aspect of yugioh that isn't normally discussed.
It's true also. We can have a great deck but it could get crushed by the meta deck that just do so much. To really win a tournament or large events over time we need both balance of skill, deckbuilding, and luck.
I'm with you though, I personally love the challenge of defeating meta decks with Rogue or lower decks.
Thanks for watching.
I play Traptrix, so many of the cards are one card starters to make a Sera for example. But running less than 3x of the good ones, I don't know if it would work the same way. I'll test it just in case.
Yes, i feel traptrix works very similar in that it needs that 1 NS. They do have additional extenders in the form of that trap card they were given so maybe run 9 monsters + the 3 trap cards that SS itself. I havent looked into their other spell support like their field and the one that functions as a draw 2 so maybe that also can warrant starting more monsters. Let me know what you come up with - the spell "traptantalizing tune" might make running more monsters fine.
Such a great video, as a math lover and a yugioh lover this is so cool. I did a couple projects myself with probability and yugioh so it's cool to see more content like this
that's y pure dragon maid is so bricky as the card that can "1 card full combo" is only chamber and parlor which only add up to 6 and need to bring a lot of brick as well 😢😢😢, your theory is very well applicated on situation like this but i want to know how about for 2 card full combo deck like sword soul tenyi,or deck like cyberse pile where every extender can basically also considered as a starter card if they can be normal summoned while having another extender in hand. Looking out for more of these content from you!!!
a popular topic being requested is 2 card combo guides so i am looking to do that. as well as 40 vs 60 cards. So great idea! thanks for the suggestion will be adding that for sure to the to do list. Thank you for watching and glad you liked the content. :)
This was a very interesting video. I’m hoping the next one is about the “proper ratios for Diabellestar engine”.
Also, something that might have been somewhat left out of this analysis for simplicities sake is that drawing a starter + a brick is still a lot better than drawing no starters. The Kashtira prank-kids list seem to try to deal with this issue by including starters that don’t become bricks when drawn in multiples like in the pure prank-kids deck. A video diving into this topic could be interesting.
Thanks for watching! Yes, I just bought a real microphone! I was planning on making this video for what I thought was going to be like 40 people who like numbers and I can't believe how much people like math like me :) The next video im working on will have much better audio and even better visuals! Glad you enjoyed!
Personally I think ideal number of normal summons is 6-8 to maximize the chance to open exactly 1 and total starters 12-15 to maximize the chance of drawing exactly 2, this has generally worked very well for me in most deck with the exception of decks like runick and 60 card decks that break deckbuilding rules. Looking at your list for example it adheres to my general ratios since you're running 8 normal summons and 13 total starters(though you should probably be using the adventurer engine not the kash engine)
Really cool ideas and concepts; thanks for sharing!
It is a great video. I think the video that would be even better is how you do the maths or in a spreadsheet, i think would be great 👍🏽
Thanks! I do hypergeometric probability. It sounds harder than what it actually is. Basically probability of certain cards coming up and when. Maybe I can do a separate video on how i do it to teach others how to do it.
Subbed! You have great ideas and keep it up and you’ll be able to improve on the technical stuff. A real microphone is a great start.
Thank you for watching. Sorry about the mic quality. I recently bought a new mike as of your comment. All of my other vids past this one have the better mike quality issue fixed because of helpful comments like yours. Thank you for the comment and please let me know other suggestions if you see my other videos.
Now do one for cards that require 2 card combos. Swordsoul for example.
Yes! I have already started working on another video but 2 card combos are heavily suggested and i am looking to do that after this next video im working on. Thank you!
i made a video about this years ago. good to see you come to similar conclusion
Just watched the video on normal summons with Alister. It was awesome. I love how you explained it and showed the graphs overlapping. Always good to have fellow statistics lovers.
But why when running 9 starters the odds of sering one diminuishes ? From 43.72 to 43.04?😅
Thats not the odds of seeing 1. Thats the odds of seeing ONLY 1 and no duplicates. For some decks with no extenders seeing a duplicate after the starter is a wasted card. Thats why the numbers go down in the second chart after 9.
For a deck like floow playing 8 or 9 what is the difference? which is better to get more chances of drawing 1 little bird but with low chances of drawing a lot of them?@@JessePerezStrategyGaming
@@OctyPFI For a deck like floo we need to talk about the starter of that deck which is robina or pseudo cards that get us to robina such as map/advent. Everything floo does tries to revolve around getting that bird into motion. Play max copies of map & advent to be able get whatever you need. However what floo needs most is consistency. That is why many floo decks fill to the brim as many Pot of X cards they can fit. This is effectively lowering their max number in their deck. I have seen some players even play "jack in the hand" but i personally think that card doesn't help against skilled opponents. Small world can get a special mention because if you already have the robina you can get a Handtrap, and if your missing robina you can get her. 3 robina, 3 map (unless your in MD which you can only play 1) 3 advent is 9 cards. But also add 3 pot cards, to lower max deck size, and a gold sarc for a 2 card combo to get robina if you have another bird in had should be enough consistency.
What is more devastating than not having robina is bowever having a robina and the enemy has an ash blossom. maximizing counter handtraps you can use the same consistancy ratio format and try to have max called by the graves, crossouts (with ash in your deck for targets), and you will likely find yourself not having enough counter handtraps to stop ash.
So what really holds a floo deck back isn't finding a robina but protecting it. So many decks will put 20 cards into finding the robina but cannot protect it. Which is why its better to stick with the lower ratios mentioned above and not play cards like "jack in the hand" when protecting the robina cards are better served in your deck.
So its hard to know your situation exactly and what format your playing in but if your deciding to play more cards that essentially search for robina or cards that protect robina from handtraps in your deckbuilding process go for the ones that protect robina because there isn't enough protection for that poor bird.
This is great, would you be able to explain the math for decks that need 2 + starters?
This has been a suggestion that multiple people have suggested. I started on a Gamma video already, when that is done I am going to look into this and this is a great topic. Thanks for the suggestion and thanks for watching.
Unfortunately the idea behind having multiple Prank kids is that two gives you a better combo as the second one can be used to make a token or used as fusion. There is an actual stronger combo for when you have two+ prank kids in hand. I'm not discrediting the maths, just saying that sometimes focusing too much on the one card starter makes you forget the multiple interactions you can produce dispite having extra bricky starters. This is often seen in Kashtira and Unchained.
If we want to go into specifics of when 2+ prank kids in hand there are 2 scenarios i can see. 1 is where you have prank kids pranks the continuous spell in hand to bail you out if your normal summon into meow mu gets ashed to get a 2nd pk on the field , and the second is if you have the fusion spell panamonium or a poly card to fuse in rocket ride if your meow gets ashed.
These are 3 card combos which i feel are unreliable and clunky and personally and mathematically think its better to run 9 starters in that scenario and another engine like kash/adventure/dpe or something to support it.
Your comment does bring up a great point that there are scenarios we should be aware of in many decks where that extra card can be beneficial.
Thank you for watching and providing extra insight in this discussion! I love more in depth deep comments like these about the metagame.
imagine if this guy got a top tier editor in mic easyily a million subs
Very interesting! In addition to what others have stated about second kid actually extending and running poly, I would like to touch on Upstart Goblin. While it is true that it improves consistency in a vacuum, there are more factors to consider. First off, if you are going second and your approach is running handtraps, then opening upstart hurts because it could have been a handtrap. This is not relevant if you were going to run an engine piece instead, as that wouldnt be a handtrap either, or if running board breakers since nobody is going to negate upstart so you get the draw anyways. Another thing to consider is that in formats where droll us prevalent, you could end up ending your turn with upstart, so it's probably not worth then. Fix your mic and keep up the good work!
Great comment! I also want to add more to this Upstart discussion point. Upstart should be the last thing you do unless it is the only thing you can do. that means you likely had 0 starters, 0 fieldspells, and a hand full of handtraps (which isn't nessearily a bad thing). Ideally if you had a starter you would full combo and upstart at end of turn and in PK its esentially a draw 2 (1 for upstart, 1 for PK pranks continous spell and because you milled so much main deck PK stuff your likely going to get an additional 1 HT from that. But I could see how droll is a double edge sword in alot of formats but the outcome would still be the same if all you had was a field spell to search as well you would still be getting drolled.
If you are going to run 15+starters then running additional polys does help mitigate when you double up but then its a 3 card combo and things start getting really clunky.
Thats why I think the 9 starter - and add another engine (Adventure/Kash/DPE) is slightly superior than a 15 pure engine. but again we are talking very small percentages
The real skill will come from how you can play the game and but it does feel good when your homework pays off.
Just got a new mike also my next video should be way better! Thanks for watching and providing a really good in depth comment. Love discussions and points like these!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Opening upstart really sucks if you put it in over a handtrap (going second), but if you are using it for engine then it really doesn't make a difference. Prank kids not only use poly as an extender (1 kid + poly = full combo + rank1-4), they can also use it to play past disruptions (2 kid+ poly beats ash, 1kid + poly beats other handtraps). Playing pure ensures your engine to set up its board, allowing all your non-engine to be handtraps and ensuring you win the grind game. This is of course much more nuanced and tied to the meta game than simple (or complex) consistency calculations, but just wanted to throw that out there. Glad to hear you have a new mic, can't wait! Also love that you engage in civil discussion with your community 💜
Extremely interesting, need more of these!
Great content. I'd be very interested in any/all future vid topics mentioned @ the end. You also should mention the drawbacks of running multiple engines.
how I'd remake that deck: ditch prank kids, and pick an archetype I know how to play.
:D Whats your fav archtype? Maybe they will make a cameo in another video :)
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming if you want my 1 all time favourite, it's gotta be Clear Wing + Speedroids. (They also work well with general wind support, or wind bosses like Baronne) But there are a ton that I like. Traptrix for example, I remember the time when there were only 4 main deck monsters, and I already liked them back than; Stardust / Synchron decks, Red Dragon Archfiend / Resonator decks, Blackwings, some of the old classics, Dark Magician and Blue-Eyes, some solitaire, in the form of Exodia variants, like Treasure Panda + synchros, or Royal Magical Library, really there are a ton of options. Prank Kids was just simply not one of them. Heck, in Master Duel, I also built a surprisingly effective if not handtrapped, Reversal Quiz FTK deck.
youre very knowledgeable bro, respect! i love this video concept please do more
Thank you for the kind words. made my day
Bro I just discovered your channel and yes I want more videos like this.
Glad you liked this video! This was one of the first ones I made too. My audio was bad and I was just learning many of the ins and outs of my software editor.
I can't wait to show you how these videos evolved and bring you even better stuff! Thanks for watching!
Hi dude, found out about ur channel today and im loving it, even sent to my math teacher cuz he helped me with some probabilities before, also the big think about cards like chiken game and upstart in modern yugioh is that they take a non engine space that could be hand traps so even if it makes the deck more consistent in theory it doesn't consider the actual gameplay specually when you need to go second and actually find your ash or veiler or nib so what's ur take about it considering this info?
Glad you liked the staticual content!
On the topic of draw cards, If they are taking the spot of a handtrap then they shouldn't be run. This is in addition to the 15+ handtraps. For example in Master duel in my current snake eye engine, i I run 18 handtraps and 2 chicken game. The chicken game draws and acts as fodder for diabelle star, ash, oak or sinful spoils. So it has mega utility and is not taking up a handtrap spot because I'm running all the handtraps that I want/need.
In sky strikers upstart not only draws early but now counts as an additional spell etc. You can still run 15+ handtraps and 3 upstart in skystikers.
Pot of extravagance, pot of prosperity same thing they are not run in place of a handtraps but to get advantage with more control oriented decks. Sometimes though, These decks tend to sometimes even forgo handtraps and run more blowout cards installed like evenly, dark ruler etc. It's all relative and must be consider led in the deckbuilding process.
Upstarts/chicken games shouldnt be taking up a handtrap spot but rather a flex/tech positions.
I am happy you liked the content! I have alit more statistical videos and do hypergeometric distribution probability so your stats teacher would enjoy thos kind of stuff.
Thanks for watching!
This is the kind of video yugitube needs!
Thanks for watching! :)
I'd like to see what you think the optimal Swordsoul Tenyi ratios are. Also, if you do make videos going through mathematically optimal ratios I think it could be useful to suggest cards that aren't part of the standard decklist but are still very useful if you wanna spice your deck up.
We need more of this please 🙏
Thanks for watching. Working on more content as we speak. Got a new mike as well so hopefully i can give better audio quality.
Great series. Please do more
Been working on the Gamma video this week. Let me know if you have any suggestions.
you made me start playing prank kids with that intro lmao
I think the problem with this thought process is that you are way less likely to draw any prank-kids so youre going to brick more on only non engine
About 17% 2:52 as you show here
Yes - absolutely correct, which is why I suggest we supplement with an additional engine that doesn't conflict in this senario with normal summon like Kashtira/adventure/dpe to add and additional 4-7 starter cards, its just out of archtype starters and then in the scenario when you do draw both you are unaffected and have 2 archtypes on board. That is why PK and adventure usually go very well together.
Its all about maximizing every card in your hand to provide value and minimize the chance of things just clogging up space. Modern yugioh has evolved so much where most games end by turn 3 so maximizing your hand is critical.
I really appreciate you watching and commenting to continue this discussion!
What you've ignored here, is that you now have to play the "bad cards" from both decks.
Cards like riseheart, scareclaw lash, birth and thesis, as well as pranks and pandemonium.
All 6 of those cards are not 1 card starters, and they actually NEED you to draw them with another card from their engine. You now risk having wonky hands which include combinations of these cards without the starters that pair with them.
Also - it is crazy that terraforning is not in your list. It literally searches any kashtira or any prankid, so it's arguably the best searcher you can play.
Terraforming is banned in Master Duel where his deck is based so I matched his restrictions. Terraforming is a great card.
To further your point, most of these 'bad cards" also lock me into either only prank kids or only xyz. It is a good point to make when balancing the pros and cons.
This has more to do with the power of the deck and a reason why PK is not tiered currently while more meta decks have less bad cards.
Adventure engine if fully unbanned would be a better pick then the Kash engine for the reasons you mentioned but its also still hurt hard in Master duel. Funny enough some of it was unbanned this last ban list.
Thank you for watching and commenting these valuable counterpoints very important and good discussion points.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Unfortunately pretty much every 1 card starter card requires you to play a "bad card" somewhere in your deck. So combining engines does usually mean playing more bad cards.
Do pure going 2nd decks would like to the see what helps in turning the tables. Please dont do snake eyes or diabellstar or tier 0 decks they dont need more sauce 😔. I appreciate your pov and expertise you will be my secret weapon in the future. Subscribed keep it up man
Its an interesting topic for sure. Going 2nd decks currently in the snake eye format i believe are going to have a hard time because snake eyes can play through so much. Triple Tactics Talent does go hard on the apollousa so a pure going 2nd deck should have at the very least 2+ of those or at the very least 1 of them and 2+ Triple Tac Thrust to search it. Nib can kind of hurt some hand/variants can play around it.
Veiler and imperm are the best bets for the summons. So really it would have to be a going 2nd deck with handtraps which is kind of weird because i personally think boardbreakers and handtraps dont mix well because of the anti synergy.
I guess at the end of the day it would have to be deck dependant. Are you using going 2nd decks like mikanko that are trying to OTK or kastira control variants. Are you using TCG or masterduel? Some questions i need to consider also to give better suggestions.
also, thanks for watching! really appreciate the love.
Man, I love how you use math and stats in Yugioh
Whats crazy is this is one of my first Yugioh vids ever so its nice to always come back and see how far the channel has come. Since this I have gotten better at editing, recieved better computer, better mike, better sound and learned more tricks too.
Heres to many more vids :)
can u build an excel table where you can insert ur decklist and it calculates the starting chances and +1(going 2nd) chances depending on ratios? this would be insanely handy.
maybe with an weighting function for starters idk
I like to use this stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric
hypergeometric probability calculator. Its sounds more complicated than it looks but esentally population size is deck size, successes are the amount of cards your looking for, sample size is hand size, successes in sample is how many your looking to get in your hand.
hope that helps! thanks for watching!
great vid! keep on going
Glad you enjoyed it! I will keep going , working on another video this whole week. Thanks for watching.
You also have to consider how bad not getting a starter is vs getting a redundant starter that is a brick.
Please continue to make these types of videos
Glad you enjoyed! I have been Working on another video this week and bought a new mike. :)
This really helped me with vanquish soul but I'm curious to know your take on the ratio for that
VS is so great of a deck because most of the skill comes from the deckbuilding process getting your attributes correctly is another factor to balance along with starters. I would consider Razen the main real starter of that deck so I would try to get him out with about 12-15 cards to support him.
Rota, infernoble arms durendal, stake your soul are the spells I would use. Wouldn't use small world cuz that might mess up attribute ratios. Maybe a pot or 2 depending on the format you are playing
The rest would try to fill with monsters, handtraps and different attributes.
Good luck with your VS deck I find it's often hard to find enough starters for that deck in general because of all the balancing factors but admittedly I haven't playtested it enough to give you the best advice solely for VS as an archtype.
Good luck and thanks for watching
Great video, looking forward to more like this
Thank you! That's very encouraging!
As a 60 card enjoyer, I cant use these numbers, so i guess ill have to do my own math
Your absolutely right i should have put them in there! I am planning on making a 60 card vs 40 card deck video in the future i think i will put that data there. Thank you for that suggestion. I like 60 card pile decks too I can run more searchable utility and more hard bricks becuase I see them less often.
But to help you out i have some numbers to hopefully make up for it.
Finding a certain card you have a 3 of (like a handtrap) in your opening 5 card hand is 23.33% compared to the 33.7% of a 40 card deck.
18 Starters are needed to get to a 84.42% consistency ratio.
Your odds of seeing a 1 brick (like a Driver) drop from 12.5 in a 40 card deck to 8.33%
Hope that helps for now :) Thanks for watching!
I wish you can make a blue-eyes deck list that supports the idea of your video
Madolches 👉👈 Please
I’ve been playing them for years and would love to see your mathematical input on how to run them. They’re the only deck I ever vibe with, even way back when we used MX-Saber Invoked
The really question here is, how many starters can we afford right now? Hahahahahaha
Bonfire has everyone breaking their piggy banks right now :D . Thanks for watching.
Can you do a starter math video for snake eyes. Ps master duel player here. Like the video
I would be interested to see how you would angle that video seeing that hand traps are semi starters with sinful spoils.
My deck feels really solid but I would be interested to see what the math says
Kinda in between a third poplar or another hand trap or chicken game which is basically a better upstart for this deck because it can be used as cost
I want your perspective on poplar and just starters in general because in snake eyes it often times feels bad to not have 2 starters because of one gets interrupted then it feels like you’re in top deck mode with a bunch of handtraps. And if you don’t open a second starter you either can’t keep playing turn one or possibly even turn 3 because if you don’t draw one you’re screwed.
So what math would you like for this deck. 2 starters ? One starter? What percentage to have 2 hand traps etc. let’s see what you got
I love the sinful spoils engine so that would be great. I am looking to do a 2 card combo video after the current one i am working on the gamma video. Going to go indepth on snake eyes seems very fun. Thanks for watching!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming thinking it would be a really good jump start to your channel seeing how popular snake eyes is in every format. Not to tell you how to prioritize your channel but if you make the most popular content first then more eyes will probably be on your other videos as soon as they come out due to more subs and traction.
Snake eyes has a lot of variables with searchers. Engine starters. Heck even some players played lullaby of obedience which has been awesome on practice.
Would you even play 40 cards with your math.
Looking forward to it
4:56 jeez that microphone 🥲
Apologies :x . My newer videos have much better quality as I went out and got a premium mike after hearing all the feedback and encouragement. I do appreciate watching as much as you did! Thank you. I plan on potentially upgrading and remaking this video with the improved audio since I got my mic.
Well, here's the thing: The video is technically correct, but I think you have glossed over how subjective this is.
For example, Jesse Kotton is a big fan of running 5 of these so-called HOPT starters. This is becausd adding additional cards after 5 is less effective and increases your chance of drawing 2 MORE than drawing 1.
This also, I think, glosses over your opponent existing. Running more engine in cases where drawing more engine is resulting in a hand that is more resilient to hand traps, for example.
great comment and you make a great point. Yeah i should have really hammered my point better that I think its better to run 9 starters and an additional engine like Kash with 5 starters. Than to run 15 starters in 1 engine. there is sooo much nuances in yugioh and it makes hard to use analyze the exact quality but thats what i aim to do and we need these these kind of comments because sometimes the best play or best deckbuilding isn't what's mathematically the best.
I would really like to know how many board breakers and how many Handtraps to use in my deck
The formulas for starters are the same as the handtraps. You would want to run at least 12 for consistancy to see at least 1. But the only other factor is that you don't really mind drawing multiple of handtraps so even going up to 20+ is fine so more than half your deck is HT gives all your cards 50% chance to be HT which would mean an average of 2 or 3 HT in your starting hand at I'd you put in 20.
In one recent Meta Snakeyee deck I used 22 handtraps. Also I don't usually mix Boardbreakers and HTs together because they sometimes conflict and have anti synergy but I do run a copy of TTTalents and sometimes a TTThurst package. So that's all personal preference and choice.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Thx
but i got another Question: Is Circular cpnsidered like a Prank kid or like a runick card
I would like to see board breakers vs handtraps.
nice video bro keep going
I like the video just out of curiosity how new are you to yugioh?
Played playground yugioh in high school. Watched original anime, GX, and Vrains. Played forbidden memories, some random GX gamboy game, capsule monsters, and my all time fav Duelist of the Roses were some games i played. Duel links player when that came out and stuck with that for a year. And Master duel for 2 years. Probably took me about 3 months to fully understand all the additional summoning things because I consider myself a yugiboomer. But very familiar with all the games and can play at the highest Master I no problem now. Time and a 9-5 is the only thing keeping me from getting a top in the duelist cups.
This is great content but the audio quality makes it really hard to understand.
Thank you for watching! Glad you liked the content. I just bought a new mike! - so hopefully future audio in videos are solved!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Please do, all of the topics you mentioned at the end would be super cool, we are in dire need of them.
I think I saw this post on Reddit, but I feel like you just end up bricking w handtraps more often than not
Don't replace the starters with handtraps. Replace the starters with other starters from a diffrent archtype that won't conflict. So you still can run 15 starters just not ones that conflict with HOPT effects. So for example i took the 15 prank kids and made it 9 prank kids with 6 Kashtira starters so my math of getting a starter engine was still very high but there was no conflicts, also there is a chance you get both engines going.
This is why adventure is also very good in PK as well.
Diabellestar engine offers the same support for snake eyes in that it acts as a seperate not conflicting engine to hyper support their consistency.
Thanks for the comment btw!
My issue with the maths did in the video is that you dont get to play if you dont draw a starter,i can have a hand of 5 staples and that is a good as a dead hand
I would rather have a dead card in hand 20% if the times if it means i get to play 30% more often
Also this only applicable for decks that only have 1 card starters with barely any extension such as Prank Kids where the deck's ability is entirely relied on its normal summon while a deck like Mannadium where starters and extenders are virtually the same the math gets very skewed
Additionally on the prank kids example, because they play the fusion spell the math on "having the ability to play" gets so much more complicated than "its just a 30%"
Upstart is somewhat fake consistency,while yes you have your deck effectively becomes 39 it also means you see less hand traps and direct starters/staples which is a lot more important in the pace of the modern game
There is a reason why 12-15 are considered as the general ratio for starters in each decks while any deck with less than 12 starters has to have ways to get to those 12 starters via multiple cards or extra consistency like the pots, the value of being able to start playing the game is much higher than having 1 starter 4 staples
While this is a decent video, the maths and reasoning are both very shallow and only applicable to situation like Prank Kids which contains 0 extension
I think the math on smaller engines and the bricks vs non starter ratio makes them worth it or not, adventure comes to mind where you need 1 fateful, 1 rider, 1 dracoback, but you play 3 rite and 3 water enchantress which makes it a 6-3 starter to brick ratio, while in md before this recent banlist rite was at 2 and enchantress was at 1 for a 3-3 starter to brick ratio, at what point would it be worth those bricks, would enchantress at 2 truly make a difference in md with adventure now at a 4-3 ratio
Good, thank u for your video, i am preparing a new deck, this video give me some new ideas
The video is very informative, but the audio sucks. Please fix it.
Thank you for watching with my awful mike quality. Just bought a new mike for future vids. :)
By the way You put it, looks like 3 upstart goblin is always the correct choise, how wrong AM i?
Upstart has so much utility but it is not all powerful. I should clarify in certain situations ehen it is good and when it's not. Upstart is good when you are happy with your handtrap ratio, and but not your starter consistancy. If you are opening too many starters then upstart is actually good to have. This allows you to combo with your main starter then use upstart at the end once you deck thinned with your combo to potentially get a good handtrap or utility card at the end. On the flip side, Upstart can also be used to find consistency if your certain archtype deck has too few starters as it essentially makes your decks a thinner deck. Where upstart is bad is when you have starter consistancy but replace a handtrap for it or put upstart in just to put an upstart in. Upstart can be drolled,negated and ashed and even the lifepoint gain can come up in certain matchups. So it has its weaknesses.
The decks that hate upstart the most are milling decks. If your playing a milling deck upstart will likely clog your cards that go to the GY.
The decks that love upstart are the ones that get additional utility from it.Sky strikers Love upstart as it's a draw and a spell in the GY.
I play both TCG and Master Duel. Currently I love chicken game at 2 copies for snake eyes in Master duel for the draw and stays on the field for the cost of snake eyes effects.
Finding if upstart has utility in your deck can go a long way as well so it's not so simple black amd white. I hope this helped.
Thanks for watching!
Would it be possible for you to share a script for this video (and future videos) maybe along with the slides (or just the graphs)? I find it easier to reference something that's written than comb through the video, also for this particular one it's sometimes hard to hear you tho I see from the comments that you're working on a mic solution.
this is a good video but the audio is pretty bad. just a heads-up.
Thanks for watching! just bought a brand new mike! Hopefully my next video will be better.
Please do make more.
Great video bro , do more like these please I'll subscribe for that
Thanks! Yeah I am planning on doing a bunch of content like this. Please keep me updated on any ideas you would like to see as well. Currently working on the gamma video and should be out by Monday. Got a new mike and improving editing as well so Im just as excited as you :)
Good content, would be great if paired with a real microphone.
Nice video
Cool video, as a TCG player I remember seeing this come up during the tier 0 brave pranks format in TCG when you ran the deck w magicians souls etc.
iirc the ratio was 11 normal summons in 46 cards
Also, yeah I gotta agree with the other commenters, the mic situation is holding you back
Amazing video, just be aware of the audio next time. You were cutting out a lot.
Edit: It's actually terrible. It happens throughout the entire video.
thank you! just bought a brand new expensive mike! will make sure that doesn't happen again. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Do you have a chart for decks above 40 cards and how it shifts per card added?
Get like a zoom h1 with a lav or something to Also record backup audio
Apologies this was my first vid in the series I took alot of the comments in consideration and got a premium mic for my future videos. These suggestions is what makes my content better thank you so much for watching!
Is your mic a mw3 throat communicator wrapped around a big gulp cup?
:D . Sorry for the audio - i just got a new mike - its in my latest video sorry for the any issues. that was funny comment. Thanks for watching!
What about tellars, we don't have a 1 card starter aside from junky sheratan
Audio is horrible, info is awesome!