Yann: I reproduced your test at home using (1) a brand new Shunt and (2) a 9.5mm dynamic rope. It failed in exactly the same way as you demonstrate, if the device gets flipped upside down. I bounced about 2cm up and down, 3-4 times, to get the rope to release. I am about 72kg.
@jj sevins Could you tell me what model of Shunt you used looking at this page? www.verticalmuseum.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/T2LeverCamPages/T2LeverCam0099.php
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I also repeated the experiment, I used a model H shunt. With an old stiff beal 10mm rope i managed to get it stuck well and damage the sheath by bouncing on it around 8-10 times but could not get it to release. with a used but supple edelrid boa 9.8 I could get it very close to releasing with around 8-10 bounces. And with a new mammut 9.2 revelation it released in 4 good bounces. I weigh in at a 70kg
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Hi Yann... sorry for the long delay; youtube didn't notify me of the comment here, so I missed it. I believe I have a Version I variety of the shunt. I should perhaps try it with a thicker rope as @Marty GC did.
I am the third climber... Accident in august. 2 meters' free fall using shunt. Had no backup at that time because still didnt land on petzl webpage, i wasnt prepared enough... 15 days of absence from work. almost broken ankle in "Vecchiano" crag. one month with crutches. Italians stole all my equipment I had to left in the crag. I was doing a traverse movement when Shunt just... disengaged. I saw the shunt just disengaging when rope wasin a traverse configuration. Now i would restart, i am deciding what equipment...
@@MelbourneClimbingSchool instead of put shunt between my legs, in that moment It was at the left side of my left leg. Then I started traversing (lolotte position) then fell and shunt didn’t catch. Hard to explain. I modify my reply to add this: Watch minute 1:35 in this video, similar situation of mine ua-cam.com/video/B0V7Bi16uzw/v-deo.html
I have been using a shunt for TR climbing for a long time and never had a issues. A few things though, it is common knowledge around the climbers I know that use it as well not to use dynamic ropes. I use a 11mm static and always use the shunt with 2 strands of rope. If used that way its very hard to have an accident. Like most climbing devices, if used incorrectly will result in failure and accident. Thanks for the video
I was top rope soloing and the top edge of the Shunt caught under my shorts pant leg when I fell. I knocked it out just in time, stopping just short of the ground like Tom Cruise in the first Mission Impossible movie.
Thanks for the notice. I use the Shunt for TRS, but with a chest harness holding it upright, two strands, stopper knots and often a CT RollnLock. I trust it.
Thank you so much for making this video! You just saved my life! I have already been using the Shunt this way for my tree route but I haven't had any of these problems with my 10.1 mm rope. I even tried using it with an arborist 12 braid rope but it doesn't feed very well. This level of support and thoroughness is the reason why I want to take your course. Having someone as an advocate in my back pocket to guarantee my life safety is worth every penny...
Good demo - it's surprising that the device is stable like this and not self resetting. Obviously, it needs a test with a new device but having seen how thin ropes can stretch under load and the geometry of the device which would allow flex, it isn't totally surprising that this can happen.
Very clear informative video. Thanks 👍🏿 I personally stopped using the Shunt many years ago because if you fall against the wall with your body it can compress the Shunt, and this led me to sliding down the rope a few meters before the Shunt hit a backup safety knot. I use a Micro Traxon these days for working on projects.
I never use a shunt for top solo climbing, but I have used it often while climbing on laders with a doble rope and a prusik (Machard ) knot as a back up. I used often a long time ago for rappelling, but using a chord is lighter and works very well. Climbing is a dangerous business! Thank you for your videos. They are concise, thorough and straight to tha point.
Thanks, I heard before, that the shunt can fail. Nice to see it finally to happen. Right from the start I always used a backup which can’t fail and a main device without teeth 😊
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing luckily my intentions for it were mainly to use it as a rap backup and also to have a mechanical device that can ascend two ropes. It seems like you could probably use a chest harness to rig it so that it would be less likely to do the scorpion catch.
@@brianrodman1033 Cool man! You will LOVE IT as a rap backup it works sooo well! Yes it is great to ascend two ropes. Static loading it is MUCH safer than dynamic loading / falling on it. And obviously with a chest harness and a proper backup system, it will be safe enough. Even if not scorpion catching, the Shunt body is weak and I would not use it for fall arrest. (Nor recommend it) Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing wanted one ever since I was first into climbing around 12 or 13. Had one in stock at my first job (at a local outdoor shop) and after the Petzl Ascenders was the ascender/rope grab that I was most interested in. Between it accepting up to two ropes and utilizing no teeth on it’s caming mechanism. I think I was also interested in using it as a backup while jugging. Will have to read the manual to see if that is something that they would recommend or at least not warn against doing.
Very interesting, thank you! Now, the Shunt is important to me because it is the only device I found that works with two ropes (apart from a Prusik of course). Does anyone know any other alternatives?
For TRS use? Usually people use 2 different devices on a single rope OR 2 different devices on a two ropes. For third-hand-mechanical-prusik for a rappel? The shunt is the best I know of for that use.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Not specifically for TRS, mostly for ascending on dual ropes., or specifically on two ends of the same rope that is placed around an anchor point without a knot holding it in place. I was thinking using a very wide carabiner and using two Tiblocs next to each other as a light weight alternative, but haven't tried that yet.
Petzl is not clear enough about it: telling that "the SHUNT is not recommended for self-belaying because of the risk of the cam jamming in an overhang situation" implies that it would be recommended in other situations... This is a dangerous statement. They also say: "The SHUNT has been specifically designed as a back-up device for abseiling. It is not designed to withstand the shock load of a fall." and that is clearer. This message should be on the forefront in my opinion. www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/FAQ/can-i-use-the-shunt-to-self-belay [EDIT] Petzl edited their statement !!! Thanks Petzl !!! Also they refer to the 10 articles on TRS that is the foundation of modern TRS :-D Welcome to 2021 ! No more Shunt ! The next level is my online course ;-) blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
Not only is it not designed to withstand the direct shock load of a fall, but it might (in certain circumstances) cut the rope in the same way that a Gibbs ascender might. This is a very important PSA for everyone!
How is "No, the SHUNT is not authorized for self-belaying" not clear enough? Apparently anyone dumb enough to use a single device for TRS with no attempt at backup is also illiterate
@@maipuwebo Dave MacLoed is in a league of his own. But he uses an unbackedup Shunt: docs.google.com/document/d/12u4KHkKXPJgyBdj6wIfrvPFo9nlgWFeyATGIgktzXcY/edit?usp=sharing
You are right! Should be used something like this: www.mountainproject.com/photo/106046039/using-the-petzl-shunt-as-an-autoblock-to-allow-you-to-free-your-hands-while-on-r
Wow. I think you just saved my life. I had been looking at a shunt as a cheaper option than a Gri Gri, since I'm on a tight budget. I think I'll wait and save up more money for the gri gri. Can't thank you enough.
The GriGri is a great device for belaying or abseiling on single rope. Not great for climbing top rope solo as it requires you to tension the rope all the time as you ascend, and you'd also need frequent stopper knots as backup. Possibly a good option if you are working on a problem and expect repeated falls. Petzl micro traxion is a popular TRS option. But regardless, make sure to have a secondary device. (I usually combine the Traxion with a Camp Lift).
i think you should look into used gear. i've bought second hand but new camp goblin for 70 euros a few weeks ago. it can be done. look for regional classified adverts instead of ebay, and ask your local climbing club if you have one nearby. it's easy to tell you to just spend the extra money, but i have no idea of your circumstances so all i'm saying is used stuff might still be good. there are ways to inspect a rope, a bicycle helmet is not ideal but it's better than nothing etc. etc.
I like using a GriGri as a backup device and an ascender as the primary. I don't think it is a problem to pull slack through the GriGri as I climb. I think stopping to pull slack through a GriGri has a very similar feeling to stopping and placing gear. I also don't tie stopper knots behind the GriGri because I don't think that a backup for my backup device is necessary. I might tie one stopper knot in case of catastrophic failure.
5 days later i'm still thinking about the topic. there's the camp blin (not the goblin) that is a kit with a 20 metre rope, riveted shut, impossible to disassemble.(en353 10.5 mm rope) it should be similar to the goblin but it's cheaper. it is a semi-static rope so it will give you a hard catch. also 20 metres is not very much, and you still need a separate device for rappelling, and perhaps one for ascending if you climb overhangs. yann also mentioned a xinda device (chinese, bottom of the barrel, no certifications) in another video, two of those might be good enough, since it's the exact copy of the grindwall uascend (en353 12mm rope wtf). your milage might vary on this last suggestion, but two of those devices would be 40 us dollars plus import tax. search "xinda arrester" on aliexpress, and look for the one that's the exact shape of the uascend. yerr gonna die
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but that device is rated for only 10mm - 12mm ropes. Did those accidents happen on ropes less than 10mm? If using two ropes it's 8mm to 12 mm.
good to know, but I will keep using my shunt WITH a back up. it's a very handy tool in my opinion, and i like how i can also use it as a prussik when I rappel. But, I definitely see your point, but like i said, if you have a solid back up that shouldn't be a problem.
@@stuff2climb102 You should go check out HowNot2's most recent video. Ryan tested a fall onto a jumar with a little slack out using his new drop tower and it removed the sheath of the rope for about a foot. Doesn't seem like it would happen in your situation but still interesting to watch.
@@Barcelona0006 yeah i haven't seen that yet. But I'm not too worried about it. Were not taking whips on it and unless everything went perfectly catastrophically wrong, i wouldn't be falling more than a foot or so onto it.
Additional comment: a friend purchased a Shunt intending to TR solo with it, but then saw this video and returned it. You may have saved a life... perhaps even a few by now.
If the top rope is weighted, say, with a climbing pack with 20lbs of rocks in it, is it still possible to get the device to invert? Seems like this failure mode is only possible if the line is slack pr perhaps in a very weird fall scenario.
Highly weighted ropes creates other issues. It can make it more likely that the device does not catch at all and lets the climber fall. Also the second accident was 60ft up so the rope weight was likely 1.5kg or more plus the weight at bottom typical or top rope solo setups. Having 20lbs would not be fun to have to manage either. Your solution is not acceptable for many reasons. It might make the Scorpion catch very very unlikely though... Thanks for the comment!!
My rope was weighted with a couple shoes, cams, and other random things. I don’t remember the fall due to injuries but I know I was using the shunt and that was my only top rope solo device.
The video is viral currently. Searching "Petzl Shunt" on UA-cam listed it 10th 1h ago. It is currently 17th. Hope it gets higher!! I agree: "Spread this". Thanks for the endorsement!
I thought the shunt was only a "mechanical Prusik" of sorts, which is a backup device not meant to be in place your main gri gri or other self belay device
It is! A perfect third hand for a rappel! But people us it a lot without backups for top rope solo (TRS). The risks are real! Look: ua-cam.com/video/IZVFGxyCejo/v-deo.html
This had happened to me when I was on my project outside. Was trying to get a bit past the crux without having to use an ascender and the shunt flipped on me. What I do now is I use two ropes (10.5mm semi static) and it works fine. It’s always good to use a back up but it can be hard when climbing at the limit. In the near future I will buy a micro traction or something similar and use it with the shunt. Curious to see how that will work out. Good video as always!
Is the Shunt with 2 ropes still okay? I typically do a double figure eight clipped into two bolts at top, double rope rappel the route using the shunt as a backup, leave the Shunt attached to both strands of ~10.3mm rope and climb. I usually tie a backup knot every 10-15ft while climbing. I can't see both strands squeezing thru scorpion style. Thoughts?
Excellent question! While I would not use a Shunt because it is inherently weak (weak body...), I would think that having 2 strands of 10.3mm rope should never come out of the device the scorpion way. I would have a few recommendations to make sure you are on the safe side: 1- both strands could be attached independently at the top so if one "fails", the other one saves you; 2- both strands are checked during the climb so both slide in the device well and at the same time so they don't come tight "one after the other" but rather "at the same time". The problem that remains is that there is still the risk of "grabbing the device during the fall" that could leave you with burned hands (see third link in the description, it is far too common in my opinion). In the end my thinking is: why not have a backup with teeth??? We know it is a very effective backup and no: it should not cut the rope or strip the sheath if you take care of keeping slack in the system "low" and keep the rope diameter >9mm at all costs and >9.5mm is usually safer. A 10.3mm is super safe to make sure a toothed device will not cut a rope. All of this is IMO and YMMV. Let me know what you think! Thanks for the comment!
I want to know too! I know my deformed device will let the rope out. And my other shunt is a "seagul" shaped model Version G and is not as easy to defeat as the new "L" shaped Version H and more recent... @climbermacleod use an “beefy 11mm rope” semi-static (so-called static) rope. This puts the odds at bay for the Scorpion Catch to happen. Thanks for the Q!
The device is weak: one strand or two strands. But I see that MAYBE it is safer with 2 strands. My recommendation is: use a different device. More testing is needed.
Depends on the diameter of the rope. It sounds much safer to me. You need the 2 ropes to be of the same diameter. But a lot of accidents with the Shunt comes from grabbing the rope (natural reflex) and typically causes burned hands. More tests are needed. I recommend the Petzl recommendations to start up with (10 web pages on the subject, click on link) you will see the Shunt is not recommended. www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/To-read-for-self-belaying?ActivityName=rock-climbing Also I recommend you buy my online course it is the most complete information on the subject here: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
you can easily correct the orientation of the shunt with a piece of 1/8in shock chord on a chest loop, but of course your tr soloing shouldn't be a grade chase. all the little tags say climbing is dangerous, i've seen em
I know no one using a cord to chest like this with the Shunt. But I am sure some people have done it. But there are better systems. Why take a chance? Why bother with this device for TRS?
I cut my belay loop on my 2 last harnesses to replace it by either the Petzl Ring Open or the Courant Odin Ring. The reason is rope soloists ask a lot about the belay loop (potential factor 2 fall on it when on lead). A Belay Loop is required to be 15kN as per UIAA and will degrade over time (see Todd Skinner accident). The Petzl Ring Open is 23kN or the Courant Odin Ring is 25kN. Also the fact that the rings are much smaller than the belay loop helps me clip the rope when on lead solo (with some setups) and keeps the device further from hitting my face. Makes sense?
i just use mine for back up when abbing down the rope or climbing back up it and it works awesome for that normally on double ropes, never do top rope solo climbing anyway good to know know about this though!!
Hey Yann, i really enjoy your content please keep it up. Have you ever used the edelrid spoc? How does it compare to the petzl micro traxion and the ct rollnlock? best wishes from germany :-)
Thanks man!!! You might have read a scary article about the spoc on Mountain Project… the problem with the Spoc is finding a compatible connector. Most of the connectors potentially do weird things with it. I recommend the Grivel Clepsydra L, the DMM Belay Master 2, or the Petzl Oxan. Any other connectors I would currently not recommend (but one or 2 I still have to buy and try!!) The Micro traxion is top of its kind… and the rollnloack has its 2 failure modes: I need to make a specific video about it!!
I cut my belay loop on my 2 last harnesses to replace it by either the Petzl Ring Open or the Courant Odin Ring. The reason is rope soloists ask a lot about the belay loop (potential factor 2 fall on it when on lead). A Belay Loop is required to be 15kN as per UIAA and will degrade over time (see Todd Skinner accident). The Petzl Ring Open is 23kN or the Courant Odin Ring is 25kN. Also the fact that the rings are much smaller than the belay loop helps me clip the rope when on lead solo (with some setups) and keeps the device further from hitting my face. Makes sense?
Ideally you'd want both strands of rope being used for your top rope solo with this device. Otherwise a back up or completely other device should be used.
I don’t like the fact that anything hindering the cam action (instinctive grab of device or anything else) means you will ride down the rope(s). But yes I would have a hard time to see how 2 ropes can pop out of the device!!! A trailing backup knot should suffice to stop an “uncontrollable” free fall.
I would agree. The key to a safe system is really a reliable backup. Knowing that the Shunt can get disconnected from the rope asks for a backup. My 2 cents anyway: some people climb without a rope and have a high tolerance to risk!!
Use a Petzl Micro Traxion UNDER the Shunt with the Shunt tensioned upward and away from the Micro using a chest rig (chest harness or slings over the shoulders, not anything around your neck for obvious reasons!!)
1). Top rope soloing is ok but use two strands, not one…… for TR 2) use a 8mm cord for tie in through clip point for shunt rather than using a carabiner 3) always back up One is none Friction hitch, ti bloc, basic ascdr above is a solid backup 4) a new shunt or old shunt should be used as a solo device…. With 10mm or more ropes. As this eliminates all stated concerns
I see you implement many measures to keep yourself safe! I have never seen someone using an 8mm cord to connect to the Shunt. Would be interested to see pictures of your system!! I don't think a friction hitch can be an effective backup to a Shunt. But you might prove me wrong! Be careful out there.
Thank you Yann and Zebulawn. I also use two strands and I use 10 mm lead rope (two strands of it). I will think about additional precautions. Perhaps I should learn how to TR solo with Grigri, but I also like to have two independently tied in strands in case of rope friction and cut.
@@andrzejkierzek3606 Depending on where you live, you might have access to 2 of these: Micro Traxion, uAscend by grand wall, an old microcender, an old Petzl Basic, Any Petzl Ascension... The LOV3 is nice but more pricey. I recommend one device with teeth and another without. The RollNLock is popular: I recommend to pair with a device with teeth. Make sure the 2 device cannot interract by inserting a separation (one on a longer quickdraw, kept up by a chest rig is popular and recommended, but not too long so it does not hit your face)
I’ve climbed heavily 5 seasons almost every day, using shunt on double top rope and nothing ever happened, I don’t understand why you single rope it, in real outdoor scenarios this is very unlikely way to climb
I don't understand why people use the shunt for TRS - there's other devices in the same price range (micro trax, roll'n'lock, etc) that function similar but don't have the shunt's safety problems. Also beats me why people don't use a backup, they're so painless...
personally i find it handy cause you can also use it as an awesome substitute for a prussik when rappelling down. In my opinion, as long as you use it on a thicker rope (like 10-11mm) and ALWAYS use a back up, it's perfectly safe. Now why anyone wouldn't use a back up is beyond me.
Agreed! People think the Shunt is safe enough and that it is good to keep things simple! They like it because they are unencumbered compared to more complicated systems!
Have used the shunt for years and have enjoyed how the rope flows through with minimal resistance. I find the video very informative and will prehaps look into other systems. Any advice on what others use that can allow for safe solo use and not having to pull the rope through devices as u climb.
@@Flipplt A backup is key to safety! A Micro Traxion is the foundation of a safer system usually (not the mini nor the nano). It flows much easier than a Shunt. (the Shunt feels like 800g (device + friction) and the Micro feels about 200g only!!!). Also the uAscend can be the backup: it feels like about 200g also. See my video about the uAscend here: ua-cam.com/video/PsCF8kw5UQI/v-deo.html . You can use both on the same rope. The uAscend must be above the Micro Traxion.
@@YnseSchaap 😂 I see! Here in Canada very few people use the shunt that I know of. Not in industrial, not for tope rope solo (TRS)... A few people might use it for what it is for in rock climbing: third hand for rappels.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing To be honest I've never seen one used here in climbing except for the guy who told me where they used it for and they worked on church spires 😁
"Never use in terrain that is more than vertical" is a lie because it makes you think it is ok in some other terrain. It is not! Don't use it in ANY terrain is my recommendation.
Just what I did after there was 2 different climbers that were TRSing with it and that got disconnected from their ropes! And the Shunt appeared to be intact. There had to be a way to explain it! There might be another way but no one has discovered it yet...
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing and how do you know they were using the device according to the manufactured specs? The climbers could have screwed up and are now trying to claim its a manufacture defect. I would maybe contact Petzl because you could be close to defamation.
@@scotthalstead1563 Petzl has updated their recommendations since these two accidents and it is now more clear that « more than one bad thing » can happen when using the Shunt for TRSing. Also note that Petzl has been prohibiting Top Rope Solo with the Shunt for a very long time. Note that some people still use it for TRS and somewhat promote this use… see Petzl prohibiting here: www.petzl.com/CA/en/Sport/FAQ/can-i-use-the-shunt-to-self-belay I welcome the new video by Dave MacLoed (and the fact that the old one was taken down). The new one has some better clues on how and why he uses it. See it here: ua-cam.com/video/q4N2WGcABLo/v-deo.html
Thank you for sharing this important aspect. I had tried the Petzl Shunt once, but with a different configuration, namely with elastic band. See here: ua-cam.com/video/hyPR6oIBVYY/v-deo.html Your report makes me wonder quite a bit though. Never thought that the shunt could behave like this. In general, I also find it a bit too big and unwieldy. Anyway, I would never rely on one device alone. Again super contribution.
It's designed for twin rope use only, not sure why this is so hard for people to get their heads around. It works absolutely amazing at being a twin rope grab.
Why is anyone attempting to use this device with a single rope? This thing screams "use me with two ropes" There's two slots and it's labeled that it needs a 10mm rope for single rope or 8mm for double rope(aka works better with 2).
Some things that in my opinion make this video not serious at all: Rope diameter not specified. device modified in order to accomplish the failing. very specific position of the device in order to fail, unlikely ( maybe even impossible ) to happen in a top rope solo. In my opinion the final aim is to get views and not to inform/ prevent accidents and for this reason i will not follow your videos any more. I specified why in my opinion is not serious just to get some counter-information for those ones beginners that may believe this is the way safety test are meant to be done.
That's why the device comes with instructions. Instructions, which obviously weren't followed. It's not designed for this use and never was. Stupid should hurt.
Yann: I reproduced your test at home using (1) a brand new Shunt and (2) a 9.5mm dynamic rope. It failed in exactly the same way as you demonstrate, if the device gets flipped upside down. I bounced about 2cm up and down, 3-4 times, to get the rope to release. I am about 72kg.
Wow thanks for this! What model was the rope? How worn/old? Was the Shunt damaged at all do you think (permanent deformation)?
This one too with a 10mm rope! ua-cam.com/users/shortsKM9_co7P92E
@jj sevins Could you tell me what model of Shunt you used looking at this page? www.verticalmuseum.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/T2LeverCamPages/T2LeverCam0099.php
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I also repeated the experiment, I used a model H shunt. With an old stiff beal 10mm rope i managed to get it stuck well and damage the sheath by bouncing on it around 8-10 times but could not get it to release. with a used but supple edelrid boa 9.8 I could get it very close to releasing with around 8-10 bounces. And with a new mammut 9.2 revelation it released in 4 good bounces. I weigh in at a 70kg
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Hi Yann... sorry for the long delay; youtube didn't notify me of the comment here, so I missed it. I believe I have a Version I variety of the shunt. I should perhaps try it with a thicker rope as @Marty GC did.
I am the third climber... Accident in august. 2 meters' free fall using shunt. Had no backup at that time because still didnt land on petzl webpage, i wasnt prepared enough... 15 days of absence from work. almost broken ankle in "Vecchiano" crag. one month with crutches. Italians stole all my equipment I had to left in the crag. I was doing a traverse movement when Shunt just... disengaged. I saw the shunt just disengaging when rope wasin a traverse configuration. Now i would restart, i am deciding what equipment...
Thanks for sharing that! Do you have a more detailed report anywhere? You're explanation here is pretty good but I want to know more...
@@MelbourneClimbingSchool instead of put shunt between my legs, in that moment It was at the left side of my left leg. Then I started traversing (lolotte position) then fell and shunt didn’t catch. Hard to explain. I modify my reply to add this: Watch minute 1:35 in this video, similar situation of mine ua-cam.com/video/B0V7Bi16uzw/v-deo.html
I have been using a shunt for TR climbing for a long time and never had a issues. A few things though, it is common knowledge around the climbers I know that use it as well not to use dynamic ropes. I use a 11mm static and always use the shunt with 2 strands of rope. If used that way its very hard to have an accident. Like most climbing devices, if used incorrectly will result in failure and accident. Thanks for the video
why no dynamic rope with the shunt?
I was top rope soloing and the top edge of the Shunt caught under my shorts pant leg when I fell. I knocked it out just in time, stopping just short of the ground like Tom Cruise in the first Mission Impossible movie.
Thanks for the notice. I use the Shunt for TRS, but with a chest harness holding it upright, two strands, stopper knots and often a CT RollnLock. I trust it.
Thats what I was thinking, 2 ropes and proper configuration...
Thank you so much for making this video!
You just saved my life!
I have already been using the Shunt this way for my tree route but I haven't had any of these problems with my 10.1 mm rope. I even tried using it with an arborist 12 braid rope but it doesn't feed very well.
This level of support and thoroughness is the reason why I want to take your course. Having someone as an advocate in my back pocket to guarantee my life safety is worth every penny...
Thank you so much! You are very welcome on the course!! :-)
Good demo - it's surprising that the device is stable like this and not self resetting. Obviously, it needs a test with a new device but having seen how thin ropes can stretch under load and the geometry of the device which would allow flex, it isn't totally surprising that this can happen.
Thanks for the comment! Will be super interesting to test with new/normally worn Shunts...
Very clear informative video. Thanks 👍🏿 I personally stopped using the Shunt many years ago because if you fall against the wall with your body it can compress the Shunt, and this led me to sliding down the rope a few meters before the Shunt hit a backup safety knot. I use a Micro Traxon these days for working on projects.
Oh this is scary! Happy nothing worst happened to you!
I never use a shunt for top solo climbing, but I have used it often while climbing on laders with a doble rope and a prusik (Machard ) knot as a back up. I used often a long time ago for rappelling, but using a chord is lighter and works very well. Climbing is a dangerous business! Thank you for your videos. They are concise, thorough and straight to tha point.
Thanks, I heard before, that the shunt can fail. Nice to see it finally to happen. Right from the start I always used a backup which can’t fail and a main device without teeth 😊
Sounds good!!
Good PSA. Saw it on BetaClimber fails.
I LOVE the shunt for TRS but..... double rope. STATIC line. Ropeman backup.
Always.
Keep sending!
Thanks!!
Awesome video
does this mean you guys are gonna be break testing some shunts? ;)
Thanks for the comment Ryan! Hope life is treating you right!! I am a big fan of your videos.
Wow, thank you! Im just getting into TRS and people need to know this! Subscibed!
Very timely. I've just received a Shunt but have not tested it out yet. Thank you.
I am so happy of your comment. I hope you get many enjoyable and safe top rope soloing days out there! Maybe not with the Shunt... 😀
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing luckily my intentions for it were mainly to use it as a rap backup and also to have a mechanical device that can ascend two ropes.
It seems like you could probably use a chest harness to rig it so that it would be less likely to do the scorpion catch.
@@brianrodman1033 Cool man! You will LOVE IT as a rap backup it works sooo well! Yes it is great to ascend two ropes. Static loading it is MUCH safer than dynamic loading / falling on it. And obviously with a chest harness and a proper backup system, it will be safe enough. Even if not scorpion catching, the Shunt body is weak and I would not use it for fall arrest. (Nor recommend it) Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing wanted one ever since I was first into climbing around 12 or 13. Had one in stock at my first job (at a local outdoor shop) and after the Petzl Ascenders was the ascender/rope grab that I was most interested in. Between it accepting up to two ropes and utilizing no teeth on it’s caming mechanism. I think I was also interested in using it as a backup while jugging. Will have to read the manual to see if that is something that they would recommend or at least not warn against doing.
Very interesting, thank you!
Now, the Shunt is important to me because it is the only device I found that works with two ropes (apart from a Prusik of course). Does anyone know any other alternatives?
For TRS use? Usually people use 2 different devices on a single rope OR 2 different devices on a two ropes.
For third-hand-mechanical-prusik for a rappel? The shunt is the best I know of for that use.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Not specifically for TRS, mostly for ascending on dual ropes., or specifically on two ends of the same rope that is placed around an anchor point without a knot holding it in place.
I was thinking using a very wide carabiner and using two Tiblocs next to each other as a light weight alternative, but haven't tried that yet.
@@Chretze Makes sense. I don't think the two-tibloc approach would work as good. But let me know how it goes it you try it!
After hearing Craig’s story, I will never use the Shunt again for TR solo. I’ll probably just throw it in the trash. Thanks for the video Yann.
I'll take it and use it for its intended purpose :). I do like my prusiks but this would also be cool for an abseil back up
Petzl is not clear enough about it: telling that "the SHUNT is not recommended for self-belaying because of the risk of the cam jamming in an overhang situation" implies that it would be recommended in other situations... This is a dangerous statement.
They also say: "The SHUNT has been specifically designed as a back-up device for abseiling. It is not designed to withstand the shock load of a fall." and that is clearer. This message should be on the forefront in my opinion.
www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/FAQ/can-i-use-the-shunt-to-self-belay
[EDIT] Petzl edited their statement !!! Thanks Petzl !!! Also they refer to the 10 articles on TRS that is the foundation of modern TRS :-D Welcome to 2021 ! No more Shunt !
The next level is my online course ;-) blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
Not only is it not designed to withstand the direct shock load of a fall, but it might (in certain circumstances) cut the rope in the same way that a Gibbs ascender might.
This is a very important PSA for everyone!
@@DrewNorthup What is PSA?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Public Service Announcement
How is "No, the SHUNT is not authorized for self-belaying" not clear enough? Apparently anyone dumb enough to use a single device for TRS with no attempt at backup is also illiterate
@@maipuwebo Dave MacLoed is in a league of his own. But he uses an unbackedup Shunt: docs.google.com/document/d/12u4KHkKXPJgyBdj6wIfrvPFo9nlgWFeyATGIgktzXcY/edit?usp=sharing
Wait.. do people use this as a descent? It's good for a back-up but I would never use this as descender
You are right! Should be used something like this: www.mountainproject.com/photo/106046039/using-the-petzl-shunt-as-an-autoblock-to-allow-you-to-free-your-hands-while-on-r
Wow. I think you just saved my life. I had been looking at a shunt as a cheaper option than a Gri Gri, since I'm on a tight budget. I think I'll wait and save up more money for the gri gri. Can't thank you enough.
The GriGri is a great device for belaying or abseiling on single rope. Not great for climbing top rope solo as it requires you to tension the rope all the time as you ascend, and you'd also need frequent stopper knots as backup. Possibly a good option if you are working on a problem and expect repeated falls. Petzl micro traxion is a popular TRS option. But regardless, make sure to have a secondary device. (I usually combine the Traxion with a Camp Lift).
i think you should look into used gear. i've bought second hand but new camp goblin for 70 euros a few weeks ago. it can be done. look for regional classified adverts instead of ebay, and ask your local climbing club if you have one nearby. it's easy to tell you to just spend the extra money, but i have no idea of your circumstances so all i'm saying is used stuff might still be good. there are ways to inspect a rope, a bicycle helmet is not ideal but it's better than nothing etc. etc.
I like using a GriGri as a backup device and an ascender as the primary. I don't think it is a problem to pull slack through the GriGri as I climb. I think stopping to pull slack through a GriGri has a very similar feeling to stopping and placing gear. I also don't tie stopper knots behind the GriGri because I don't think that a backup for my backup device is necessary. I might tie one stopper knot in case of catastrophic failure.
5 days later i'm still thinking about the topic. there's the camp blin (not the goblin) that is a kit with a 20 metre rope, riveted shut, impossible to disassemble.(en353 10.5 mm rope) it should be similar to the goblin but it's cheaper. it is a semi-static rope so it will give you a hard catch. also 20 metres is not very much, and you still need a separate device for rappelling, and perhaps one for ascending if you climb overhangs. yann also mentioned a xinda device (chinese, bottom of the barrel, no certifications) in another video, two of those might be good enough, since it's the exact copy of the grindwall uascend (en353 12mm rope wtf). your milage might vary on this last suggestion, but two of those devices would be 40 us dollars plus import tax. search "xinda arrester" on aliexpress, and look for the one that's the exact shape of the uascend. yerr gonna die
try to find someone to belay you is easier and fun
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but that device is rated for only 10mm - 12mm ropes. Did those accidents happen on ropes less than 10mm? If using two ropes it's 8mm to 12 mm.
Good point!! I don’t know…
good to know, but I will keep using my shunt WITH a back up. it's a very handy tool in my opinion, and i like how i can also use it as a prussik when I rappel. But, I definitely see your point, but like i said, if you have a solid back up that shouldn't be a problem.
What kind of backup do you use? Same rope or second rope?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I use a jumar underneath it.
@@stuff2climb102 Sounds good! 😀
@@stuff2climb102 You should go check out HowNot2's most recent video. Ryan tested a fall onto a jumar with a little slack out using his new drop tower and it removed the sheath of the rope for about a foot. Doesn't seem like it would happen in your situation but still interesting to watch.
@@Barcelona0006 yeah i haven't seen that yet. But I'm not too worried about it. Were not taking whips on it and unless everything went perfectly catastrophically wrong, i wouldn't be falling more than a foot or so onto it.
Additional comment: a friend purchased a Shunt intending to TR solo with it, but then saw this video and returned it. You may have saved a life... perhaps even a few by now.
Thanks JJ!!!
that is insane! Thanks for sharing!
Just goes to show ya, always backup. Thanks Yann
If the top rope is weighted, say, with a climbing pack with 20lbs of rocks in it, is it still possible to get the device to invert? Seems like this failure mode is only possible if the line is slack pr perhaps in a very weird fall scenario.
Highly weighted ropes creates other issues. It can make it more likely that the device does not catch at all and lets the climber fall. Also the second accident was 60ft up so the rope weight was likely 1.5kg or more plus the weight at bottom typical or top rope solo setups. Having 20lbs would not be fun to have to manage either. Your solution is not acceptable for many reasons. It might make the Scorpion catch very very unlikely though... Thanks for the comment!!
My rope was weighted with a couple shoes, cams, and other random things. I don’t remember the fall due to injuries but I know I was using the shunt and that was my only top rope solo device.
@@trevorstuart3950 Thanks for the feedback!
Pretty sure this is why I decked prob 60 ft up and my body is quite fucked at the moment. Great video. Spread this
The video is viral currently. Searching "Petzl Shunt" on UA-cam listed it 10th 1h ago. It is currently 17th. Hope it gets higher!! I agree: "Spread this". Thanks for the endorsement!
Wishing you a speedy recovery, Trevor.
I'm glad you're recovering Trevor. Some friends of mine were involved in your rescue. So glad to hear you're alive
@@christopherhill2687 thanks dude. thanks for your friends help as well
Glad you posted a PSA. Don't use shunts! Has too many points of failure...
Thanks Greg!!
Thanks for sharing! Great information!!
Thank you!
Great video Yann!
Thanks for the comment Josh! Hope life is treating you right!! I am a big fan of your videos.
I thought the shunt was only a "mechanical Prusik" of sorts, which is a backup device not meant to be in place your main gri gri or other self belay device
It is! A perfect third hand for a rappel! But people us it a lot without backups for top rope solo (TRS). The risks are real! Look: ua-cam.com/video/IZVFGxyCejo/v-deo.html
This had happened to me when I was on my project outside. Was trying to get a bit past the crux without having to use an ascender and the shunt flipped on me. What I do now is I use two ropes (10.5mm semi static) and it works fine. It’s always good to use a back up but it can be hard when climbing at the limit. In the near future I will buy a micro traction or something similar and use it with the shunt. Curious to see how that will work out. Good video as always!
Is the Shunt with 2 ropes still okay? I typically do a double figure eight clipped into two bolts at top, double rope rappel the route using the shunt as a backup, leave the Shunt attached to both strands of ~10.3mm rope and climb. I usually tie a backup knot every 10-15ft while climbing. I can't see both strands squeezing thru scorpion style. Thoughts?
Excellent question! While I would not use a Shunt because it is inherently weak (weak body...), I would think that having 2 strands of 10.3mm rope should never come out of the device the scorpion way. I would have a few recommendations to make sure you are on the safe side: 1- both strands could be attached independently at the top so if one "fails", the other one saves you; 2- both strands are checked during the climb so both slide in the device well and at the same time so they don't come tight "one after the other" but rather "at the same time". The problem that remains is that there is still the risk of "grabbing the device during the fall" that could leave you with burned hands (see third link in the description, it is far too common in my opinion). In the end my thinking is: why not have a backup with teeth??? We know it is a very effective backup and no: it should not cut the rope or strip the sheath if you take care of keeping slack in the system "low" and keep the rope diameter >9mm at all costs and >9.5mm is usually safer. A 10.3mm is super safe to make sure a toothed device will not cut a rope. All of this is IMO and YMMV. Let me know what you think! Thanks for the comment!
Has anyone tried with a 10mm rope? The rope,if used single, has to be between 10mm and 11mm as specified in the shunt.
I want to know too! I know my deformed device will let the rope out. And my other shunt is a "seagul" shaped model Version G and is not as easy to defeat as the new "L" shaped Version H and more recent... @climbermacleod use an “beefy 11mm rope” semi-static (so-called static) rope. This puts the odds at bay for the Scorpion Catch to happen. Thanks for the Q!
You are probably right, but I have used the Shunt this way for years , it has never given me the slightest problem, even during big falls....
That is called the survival bias. Look it up!!
What about with two strands running through the device?
The device is weak: one strand or two strands. But I see that MAYBE it is safer with 2 strands. My recommendation is: use a different device. More testing is needed.
Thanks you very much for this information!. Regards!!
Ouff. Great observation.
Thank you!
On the notice they say to use the shunt with rope size between 10 and 11mm when you use only 1 rope.
what if you you it on both ropes?.... I usually do.
Depends on the diameter of the rope. It sounds much safer to me. You need the 2 ropes to be of the same diameter. But a lot of accidents with the Shunt comes from grabbing the rope (natural reflex) and typically causes burned hands. More tests are needed. I recommend the Petzl recommendations to start up with (10 web pages on the subject, click on link) you will see the Shunt is not recommended. www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/To-read-for-self-belaying?ActivityName=rock-climbing Also I recommend you buy my online course it is the most complete information on the subject here: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
you can easily correct the orientation of the shunt with a piece of 1/8in shock chord on a chest loop, but of course your tr soloing shouldn't be a grade chase. all the little tags say climbing is dangerous, i've seen em
I know no one using a cord to chest like this with the Shunt. But I am sure some people have done it. But there are better systems. Why take a chance? Why bother with this device for TRS?
Ok, interesting. What if you use double rope tied off beneath you. Is is then possible to disconnect?
You might have to test that but I would not put my life on it. There are better devices / systems out there for TRSing.
Is the rescuescender safer?
Depending on how you use it, the old Rescucender with a backup device can be safer. I would not use the new Rescucender as it has its own issues.
What's that ring on your hardpoints as a belay loop? That thing is cool.
Great video!
What is the “ring” on your harness?
I cut my belay loop on my 2 last harnesses to replace it by either the Petzl Ring Open or the Courant Odin Ring. The reason is rope soloists ask a lot about the belay loop (potential factor 2 fall on it when on lead). A Belay Loop is required to be 15kN as per UIAA and will degrade over time (see Todd Skinner accident). The Petzl Ring Open is 23kN or the Courant Odin Ring is 25kN. Also the fact that the rings are much smaller than the belay loop helps me clip the rope when on lead solo (with some setups) and keeps the device further from hitting my face. Makes sense?
i just use mine for back up when abbing down the rope or climbing back up it and it works awesome for that normally on double ropes, never do top rope solo climbing anyway good to know know about this though!!
The shunt must be the best mechanical prusik (if not the only one out there!!). That is hands down the best use for it :-) Thanks for the comment!!
Hey Yann, i really enjoy your content please keep it up. Have you ever used the edelrid spoc? How does it compare to the petzl micro traxion and the ct rollnlock?
best wishes from germany :-)
Thanks man!!! You might have read a scary article about the spoc on Mountain Project… the problem with the Spoc is finding a compatible connector. Most of the connectors potentially do weird things with it. I recommend the Grivel Clepsydra L, the DMM Belay Master 2, or the Petzl Oxan. Any other connectors I would currently not recommend (but one or 2 I still have to buy and try!!) The Micro traxion is top of its kind… and the rollnloack has its 2 failure modes: I need to make a specific video about it!!
Do you have the video about the failure of CT rollnlock
Why nobody's talking about the metal loop?!
I cut my belay loop on my 2 last harnesses to replace it by either the Petzl Ring Open or the Courant Odin Ring. The reason is rope soloists ask a lot about the belay loop (potential factor 2 fall on it when on lead). A Belay Loop is required to be 15kN as per UIAA and will degrade over time (see Todd Skinner accident). The Petzl Ring Open is 23kN or the Courant Odin Ring is 25kN. Also the fact that the rings are much smaller than the belay loop helps me clip the rope when on lead solo (with some setups) and keeps the device further from hitting my face. Makes sense?
Sapevo che lo shunt NON va usato in top rope solo, perché non blocca, ma questa descrizione non la sapevo.
Grazie per il commento!
Ideally you'd want both strands of rope being used for your top rope solo with this device. Otherwise a back up or completely other device should be used.
I don’t like the fact that anything hindering the cam action (instinctive grab of device or anything else) means you will ride down the rope(s). But yes I would have a hard time to see how 2 ropes can pop out of the device!!! A trailing backup knot should suffice to stop an “uncontrollable” free fall.
It seems to me that the shunt is perfectly safe as a TR device... IF.... you use a back up device. Thoughts?
I would agree. The key to a safe system is really a reliable backup. Knowing that the Shunt can get disconnected from the rope asks for a backup. My 2 cents anyway: some people climb without a rope and have a high tolerance to risk!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thanks for the reply!
I always use it with a twin rope. Can't see this happening with that set up.
Do you have any idea of how to prevent that, still using the shunt? if the rope is slightly tensionned, it's already harder to get that result, right?
Use a backup.
@@JumperTheHunter yeah, use a micro traxation or a jumar as back up.
Use a Petzl Micro Traxion UNDER the Shunt with the Shunt tensioned upward and away from the Micro using a chest rig (chest harness or slings over the shoulders, not anything around your neck for obvious reasons!!)
Never top rope solo without backup... Always use 2 different devices
Wise advice! Also make sure one device cannot cancel the other (have seen more than once...)
great video
Thanks!
Petzl specifically states that the Shunt should never be used for top rope solo. They recommend many others of their ascenders instead.
I agree. Too sad a lot of people still trust this device for TRS use!
Holy fuck well spotted mate
Спасибо большое за ваш труд. Очень полезно
Thanks for your comment!!
1). Top rope soloing is ok but use two strands, not one…… for TR
2) use a 8mm cord for tie in through clip point for shunt rather than using a carabiner
3) always back up
One is none
Friction hitch, ti bloc, basic ascdr above is a solid backup
4) a new shunt or old shunt should be used as a solo device…. With 10mm or more ropes. As this eliminates all stated concerns
I see you implement many measures to keep yourself safe! I have never seen someone using an 8mm cord to connect to the Shunt. Would be interested to see pictures of your system!! I don't think a friction hitch can be an effective backup to a Shunt. But you might prove me wrong! Be careful out there.
Thank you Yann and Zebulawn. I also use two strands and I use 10 mm lead rope (two strands of it). I will think about additional precautions. Perhaps I should learn how to TR solo with Grigri, but I also like to have two independently tied in strands in case of rope friction and cut.
@@andrzejkierzek3606 Depending on where you live, you might have access to 2 of these: Micro Traxion, uAscend by grand wall, an old microcender, an old Petzl Basic, Any Petzl Ascension... The LOV3 is nice but more pricey. I recommend one device with teeth and another without. The RollNLock is popular: I recommend to pair with a device with teeth. Make sure the 2 device cannot interract by inserting a separation (one on a longer quickdraw, kept up by a chest rig is popular and recommended, but not too long so it does not hit your face)
Thanks
When he start to say "some how"... Lol
I’ve climbed heavily 5 seasons almost every day, using shunt on double top rope and nothing ever happened, I don’t understand why you single rope it, in real outdoor scenarios this is very unlikely way to climb
We don’t learn from people having no issues. We learn from accidents incidents and risk analysis.
I don't understand why people use the shunt for TRS - there's other devices in the same price range (micro trax, roll'n'lock, etc) that function similar but don't have the shunt's safety problems. Also beats me why people don't use a backup, they're so painless...
personally i find it handy cause you can also use it as an awesome substitute for a prussik when rappelling down. In my opinion, as long as you use it on a thicker rope (like 10-11mm) and ALWAYS use a back up, it's perfectly safe. Now why anyone wouldn't use a back up is beyond me.
Agreed! People think the Shunt is safe enough and that it is good to keep things simple! They like it because they are unencumbered compared to more complicated systems!
Have used the shunt for years and have enjoyed how the rope flows through with minimal resistance. I find the video very informative and will prehaps look into other systems. Any advice on what others use that can allow for safe solo use and not having to pull the rope through devices as u climb.
@@Flipplt A backup is key to safety! A Micro Traxion is the foundation of a safer system usually (not the mini nor the nano). It flows much easier than a Shunt. (the Shunt feels like 800g (device + friction) and the Micro feels about 200g only!!!). Also the uAscend can be the backup: it feels like about 200g also. See my video about the uAscend here: ua-cam.com/video/PsCF8kw5UQI/v-deo.html . You can use both on the same rope. The uAscend must be above the Micro Traxion.
Video by dave Macleod is what convinced me back in the day
I've been told that a shunt is mostly used in industrial climbing as a abseil device and always with a double rope
Probably depends on the part of the world… I am not sure!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Holland.... no rocks or mountains 😁
@@YnseSchaap 😂 I see! Here in Canada very few people use the shunt that I know of. Not in industrial, not for tope rope solo (TRS)... A few people might use it for what it is for in rock climbing: third hand for rappels.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing To be honest I've never seen one used here in climbing except for the guy who told me where they used it for and they worked on church spires 😁
PS. Never use in terrain that is more than vertical
"Never use in terrain that is more than vertical" is a lie because it makes you think it is ok in some other terrain. It is not! Don't use it in ANY terrain is my recommendation.
Sounds like you're manipulating the device and trying to find fail points to it.
Just what I did after there was 2 different climbers that were TRSing with it and that got disconnected from their ropes! And the Shunt appeared to be intact. There had to be a way to explain it! There might be another way but no one has discovered it yet...
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing and how do you know they were using the device according to the manufactured specs? The climbers could have screwed up and are now trying to claim its a manufacture defect. I would maybe contact Petzl because you could be close to defamation.
@@scotthalstead1563 Petzl has updated their recommendations since these two accidents and it is now more clear that « more than one bad thing » can happen when using the Shunt for TRSing. Also note that Petzl has been prohibiting Top Rope Solo with the Shunt for a very long time. Note that some people still use it for TRS and somewhat promote this use… see Petzl prohibiting here: www.petzl.com/CA/en/Sport/FAQ/can-i-use-the-shunt-to-self-belay I welcome the new video by Dave MacLoed (and the fact that the old one was taken down). The new one has some better clues on how and why he uses it. See it here: ua-cam.com/video/q4N2WGcABLo/v-deo.html
Thank you for sharing this important aspect. I had tried the Petzl Shunt once, but with a different configuration, namely with elastic band. See here: ua-cam.com/video/hyPR6oIBVYY/v-deo.html
Your report makes me wonder quite a bit though. Never thought that the shunt could behave like this. In general, I also find it a bit too big and unwieldy.
Anyway, I would never rely on one device alone.
Again super contribution.
I made shunt myself from stainless steel its mor safer ;)
LOL! You really did?? Would love to see this device!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing look on messenger
@@elwiz81 Wow your home made Shunt looks BEAUTIFUL!!! Great job! Just like the Petzl, but steel right?
@@elwiz81 can i see it?
It's designed for twin rope use only, not sure why this is so hard for people to get their heads around. It works absolutely amazing at being a twin rope grab.
Wrong please read the manual again. It is allowed on single ropes from 10 to 11mm. But yea people push the envelope and use it on
Why is anyone attempting to use this device with a single rope? This thing screams "use me with two ropes"
There's two slots and it's labeled that it needs a 10mm rope for single rope or 8mm for double rope(aka works better with 2).
Some things that in my opinion make this video not serious at all:
Rope diameter not specified.
device modified in order to accomplish the failing.
very specific position of the device in order to fail, unlikely ( maybe even impossible ) to happen in a top rope solo.
In my opinion the final aim is to get views and not to inform/ prevent accidents and for this reason i will not follow your videos any more.
I specified why in my opinion is not serious just to get some counter-information for those ones beginners that may believe this is the way safety test are meant to be done.
And this is not the only way to commit suicide with the help of "Petzl Shant" ...
That's why the device comes with instructions. Instructions, which obviously weren't followed. It's not designed for this use and never was. Stupid should hurt.
@@mathproblemssolvedcraigfau775 Like I said It comes with instructions, which should be read, your comment proves my point more than you realize.