It's really cool that two other air force pilots wanted to celebrate and give him respect for his kill regardless of the military branches bickering. Bureaucracy really sucks.
it's not bureaucracy, in this case it was the us army violating their own plans tho. It was either keep it secret or lose the planes, leaving people unprotected.
Imagine my surprise when I found out that Robin Olds had lived at the YMCA in my small town in Pennsylvania for a time. The story goes that the Congressman who was buddies with Olds dad that sponsored him for his appointment at Wast Point was the representative from my area, I guess in order for Olds to be sponsored by him he had to technically be a resident of the area so he moved here and stayed at the YMCA until it went through. Also his dad was a member of the notorious "Bomber Mafia" that ran the USAAC in the years before WW2 and after it became the USAAF shortly before Pearl Harbor. I'm from the hometown of Gen George C Marshall (you know, the Marshall Plan) who at one point was the Secretary of Defense and imagine my surprise last year when I turned the TV on one day and a guy I went to high school with, Mark Esper, was being appointed as the Secretary of Defense. Must be something in the water around here.
@@dukecraig2402 wow... thanks for this addition to the story... of Course he'd have to move away and fight for his place, lol! Gosh... so cool to hear your addition to the story.
@@velonico All of us that were in school with Mark were very proud of him when he got his appointment to West Point. I'll bet it was his uncle George Esper that had something to do with him getting it, George was an AP correspondent in the Vietnam war and is a legend among war correspondents, he was the only AP correspondent that didn't leave the city of Hue when they were all ordered out during the Tet Offensive, he stayed and covered it, he'd become the AP bureau chief in '73 and stayed in Saigon after it fell in '75, after the war he covered the Jonestown massacre in '78 and the Gulf War and afterwards he was a journalism professor at West Virginia University which is right down the road across the state line in Morgantown Wv, that's also where he graduated from when he got his degree in journalism. My parents went to school with Mark's parents and George, when I was in the Army after I graduated high school Mark's uncle George wrote a book on the Vietnam war called; The Eyewitness History of the Vietnam War, he went to my mother's house and gave her a signed copy to give to me when I discharged shortly afterwards.
Close air ground support should be the preview of the Army, Navy and Marines. The Air Force should be limited to Ballistic missiles, national air defence and strategic bombing. The Key West agreement sounds like political lobbyist interfering in National Security.
Look at the problems that Hitler interfering with German plane manufacturing caused. Insisting planes such as the ME262 and HE177 be required to dive bomb. The ME-262 could have entered service 18 MONTHS earlier. Imagine ME-262, in North Africa and Eastern Russia. The overheating issues that the engines on the HE-177 could have been fixed. You are looking at the Key West Protocol backwards. Its meant for operational planning BEFORE the war starts.
@@dugclrk it limits who has aircraft to reduce competition over contracts. Definitely a money move. If an aircraft gets into production it doesnt have to worry about another branch outdoing it.
It was all about reducing redundancies, which doesn't always turn out to be the same as increasing effectiveness. But you start with what looks, on the surface, like duplication of effort. And because this directly affects allocations of the budget, it gets personal fast.
What alternative would you prefer to something like the Key West agreement? Sure, we can debate specifics back and forth until the cows come home, but every bureaucracy has a tendency to try to keep expanding and growing its own authority and capability. Imagine if each branch decided what it needed independently... ...The Army starts buying its own troop transport ships and amphibious assault boats so they can move soldiers anywhere in the world. The Air Force decides it should have its own paratroopers to capture enemy air bases, but that leads to them also needing their own heavy air mobile engineering corp to repair said air bases, and why not get some armored fighting vehicles to secure the bases while you are at it. Meanwhile the Navy and Marines decide they need the capacity to perform deep overland operations which means procuring numerous larger fixed wing cargo aircraft that can't land on carriers, along with the associated air bases... ...Pretty soon each branch ends up being just a complete all around military force arguing over which should be exclusively sent to fight an enemy like Iraq in 1991 to justify their own new budget requests. Again, I'm not arguing the Key West agreement is perfect, but I do argue that we need something like to to limit each service. The only other option is to move to a unified command structure and dispense with the traditional branches all together.
When my Unit was deployed to the Balkans there was a briefing between the major players and Aircraft load outs and capabilities were explained so that Units knew what each other were able to bring to bear in shooting match. At that time our OH58D(R)'s were the only Army Helicopter that could be armed to Air to Air missles and we had brought the launchers along with us. The Air Force was livid that we had that capability and was very vocal in the briefing about our not equipping our helicopters with them. I being an irreverent senior Warrant Officer asked if the Air Force was afraid we'd shoot back if they shot at our assets? The incident in Iraq where two F15's shot down two U.S. Army Blackhawk Helicopters had recently occurred and was still a very sore subject. It seems all helicopters look like Soviet Hind helicopters to the AF.
Holy shit that’s insane. I’m an Army vet, did 10 years got out ‘17. It’s funny you say AF is bad at target ID but I’ve heard stories of Army Apaches shooting up Bradleys in Desert Storm.
@@zaab-yaoh9302 it was a Lieutenant Colonel who was qualified on OH-58s, but used his rank to "command" from the "much sexier" Gunner's Station of an AH-64 Apache. He mis-identified some British Warrior IFVs as Iraqi BMPs. As I recall, he, and other WOs/Officers, were "uncertain" of identification, however, personnel on the Ground asserted they were taking "heavy fire" and "needed" the helos to attack the "enemy" or there would be American ground casualties... The LTC was Court-martialed, because he WAS RESPONSIBLE, and he was "joyriding" in an AH-64, not an OH-58 C&C (Observation / Recon) helicopter, like he was supposed to be.
@@zaab-yaoh9302 the TARGET SILHOUTTE used by the US armed forces has Significant Similarity to the Rear Aspect of an M2 BFV (Bradley Fighting Vehicle) {and externally identical M3 Deavers Cavalry Fighting Vehicle}) {British Warrior IFVs too}. There have been numerous tragedies at the NTC (National Training Center) at Fort Irwin, California. Mostly during Live Fire Exercises with AFVs maneuvering an firing on a range more than 10 km long, and several km wide. Its extremely Dangerous Training, however, it is the most realistic training in the world! IDF Officers and NCO who have witnessed it have said they wished their nation had such a facility!
All the drama between the Army and the Air Force reminds me of the A-10 situation. The USAF fighter mafia desperately wants to kill off the Warthog (with no replacement for it's capabilities) but it's too effective and too popular with ground troops so congress won't let them. The Army would love to take the whole fleet off their hands but the Air Force won't let the Army have armed fixed wing aircraft because that's "their turf".
We had OV-1's on our airfield along with AF OV-10's when I was in Vietnam in 1971 Have pics. Also met BG Olds when he came through our simulator shop around 1972. Really a neat guy.
Yeah, but we must dress for success... so I think this airman got his recognition... wasn't court-martialed... still was hugged by bad ass Olds... I think we also need the hush hush once in a while! To remind the world we are professionals. A bit of irony... Loose lips sink ships! And so do USA aircraft if you wish harm... we just won't publicize when we knock your shit out of the sky... Either way... were on the same team... just commenting... it was a great video, right! Peace ✌
@@velonico the US military still goes to great lengths to cover things up. The wikileaks collateral murder video for example. It's why they want Julian Assange dead.
@@tubthump exactly what the post is all about. These rules are meant to hurt the US... because if Julian did that here in my country, Assange is already a fertilizer by now. The US has too many rules in favor of criminals, you know because of Human rights.
Those stupid rules are important. It's silly to split aviation between the army and air force. It's much more effective to funnel the proper funding into one place. I was in army aviation, our perview should be rotary and the air force's should be fixed wings. Splitting it up is silly. I even worked on mohawks, the army shouldn't be running mohawks or c10's.
China training north Vietnamese pilots: "you weren't supposed to be here." Britain training American dog handlers: "neither should you." Edit: Jesus these replies escalated quickly Edit 2: what the fuck guys, this was a meme post and now it political. Please can we go back to making memes and jokes
Old British Army joke - A group of Green Berets in Singapore bar, on RnR from Up Country, spot a table of British Royal Marines. 'Why aren't you Limeys fighting in 'Nam? Too chicken-shit, eh?! A wirey Commando turned to the Americans and replied 'Viet Cong are doing fine without our help, mate!' 😎😎😎
@@spider-spectre Oh lighten up, that's why it's called a joke. You know, like the one; "Overpaid, over sexed and over here." To which you reply "Underpaid, under sexed and under Eisenhower."
@@spider-spectre Just after WW2 Britain took on Ho Chi Min and was on the verge of defeating him when the US put pressure on Britain to stop fighting. So obviously the US didn't need Britains help
That’s great , we housed a Mohawk ( we were a large skydiving operation ) with a sweet surveillance pod that was being tested for “DEA” , in S. Florida, still had Desert Storm 1 palm trees and camels on the nose ,very cool aircraft , those huge engines would just drag it through the air , this was back in 2005ish
I used to work on Mohawks. Like everything Grumman made, it was tough. Fun to fly in too. I think Lee hit the MiG with 2.75 in rockets (been a while since I read that story). He was not really supposed to have them as Mohawks were not supposed to be armed due to the Key West agreement. A few, however, did fly armed as JOV-1's. The Army is only big on rules until the fit hits the shan... Thanks for the vid. Nicely done.
Do you know if any have been decommissioned and made available for civilian ownership? They just look so cool IMO and it would be cool to see them in use for recreation at some point.
Yep, I caught that one, too. Also, at 2:00 - the "Vietcong" didn't have "air-to-air" missiles. The Vietcong weren't flying any fixed wing aircraft during the war - only the North Vietnamese A.F.
I flew in Mohawks just over 3 years as a TO before going to Flight school. All of my Senior pilots were Vietnam Mohawk drivers and they told me this story. Years later in the Gulf War I flew the Cobra. I was cocked and locked and I swore I was going to shoot down a Mi-17 or 24 if I saw one. One never came across my HUD or HSS sadly...
@@iforgotmyusername0 The Ov1D mohawk's (the last model used) has been retired for over two decades. I work on them in 94 in korea... Information on them is pretty common knowledge now and the side looking airborne radar isn't an essential national secret anymore. Even in the 90's, most of the mohawk secrets were out anyways.
I was at an air museum when I overheard a retired AF individual tell someone that the AF had all the fixed wing aircraft and the Army had rotors only in Nam I chirped up and mentioned being in a rice paddy central highlands South Viet Nam 101st 1966 and witnessed a Mohawk puddle jumping while providing support. Also mentioned the Caribou we flew in which was an Army jump/ cargo plane. The guy would not believe me but I could care less because I was used to ridicule about Nam. Nice video story. Mohawk driver downing a jet.
Gary Strong I remember the little puddle jumpers that were clearly marked U.S. Army. Didn’t believe you? I told a young G.I. recently that the Army had, and operated a fairly large brown water navy in the Delta. He didn’t believe me either.
My dad told someone he flew B-17's out of the Phillipines in WW2. This guy said "There were no B-17's in the Phillipines in WW2" My dad said "There sure were, I flew in them, Air-Sea rescue....the B-17s would shadow the B 29s that often had overheated engines and crashed in the ocean...the B 17s Air-Sea rescure had a huge boat under the fuselage and would drop it...it had a motor a propeller and sails. Google "B-17 Air Sea resuce boats" and click images or videos and be amazed!
It's amazing that our military leaders go out of their way to make it harder for us to win or even survive combat, who would tell a fighter pilot that they cant shoot down the enemy?
It's absolutely a great story. Well done, Captain. You earned your medal with humility, and that says a lot about the character of the person. The US Air Force should give the US Army the A10s and get the hell out of the Army's way.
I appreciate some of your research. I serve in the U.S.Air Force in 1970 I was told In a class of enlisted air force personnel of an air to air kill of a NVA aircraft which had been surprised by resupply helicopters and was destroyed. The report stated that there were 2 aircraft 1 fled the helicopter did not chase.
The chief pilot of the corporate flight department I worked at in the 1980's had flown Mohawks on his first tour of duty in Vietnam. He said the aircraft was an excellent platform for ground strafing. You could point it down a road with a column of vehicles and just walk the rudders back and forth and take out the whole column quickly. Another pilot I had occasion to fly with a couple of times, while I was new private pilot was Cliff Johnson, known Army Aviation circles as "Mr Mowhawk" for his long experience in the aircraft and his ability to fly it.
Found this in an article about it. www.avgeekery.com/that-time-a-mohawk-shot-down-a-mig-over-the-a-shau-valley/ As the MiG pilot turned to engage the Mohawks again he got in front of the two 19 shot M159 rocket pods with 2.75 inch unguided rockets and two XM14 .50 caliber gun pods mounted on Lee’s underwing racks.
chris younts Yup! It was a late modeled F4U Corsair. An A-1 Skyraider “Sandy” shot down a MiG-17 in Vietnam as well. Along with multiple allied props in late WWII to down Me-262s.
I was just checking to see if anyone had already picked up on it! Apparently not many people aside from you guys... a bit of a frustrating inaccuracy, but he might be using stock footage, only so many shots of Mig 15 or 17s and those do kind of look like the La 15 if you dont look to close
I read about the Key West agreement when I was reading the Brotherhood of war series when I was in middle school, and was surprised that it was a real thing
Great series, and yes, it has been a terrible agreement that has ruled for too long. Though there is a lot of bureaucracy in the military that would make you wonder how we can even have the functionality we have in our military. The stupid hurts bad, and now they're making military healthcare even worse.
I actually around 1999 met W.E.B. Griffin in Grapevine, Texas at a book signing there. Nice guy. Four of us were standing there talking to him. Griffin had served in the Army. All of us talking to him had. One of the men there was a World War II vet. But he was more than just that. He was a Bataan Death March survivor. I got Griffin to sign my book. I asked him why he wrote the series on the Brotherhood. He said and I quote, "The history of Army aviation had to be told..."
I don’t know what’s worse, the relationship between the Air Force and Army, or the fact a MiG got shot down by an OV-1. That MiG pilot must’ve been horrible.
Robin Olds had a reputation for bucking authority so it doesn't surprise me that he wanted to celebrate the kill. There is a story in Dan Hampton's book " Lords of the Sky" where he was low on fuel and the tanker said that he was too low on fuel to refuel the F-4 that Olds was in and would not put the boom down.. He apparently said that I've got about 2 minutes of gas remaining and he also had a couple of Sidewinders left and said "just before I punch out I'm going to trigger them off so get your parachutes on." The boom came down.
The Mohawk was an interesting plane. We flew two through the lava cloud created by Mount St Helens and pinpointed a lot of people who were later rescued. It seemed that the Mohawk needed little to no air through it engines to fly which is why we could stay airborne while even the toughest choppers choked on the floating silt. Our unit had trained on this by flying through the carbon dioxide of the Redoubt Volcano in AK.
A buddy of mine was a major and senior Army aviator who took part in the test and development program at Ft.Rucker aviation center and had nothing but praise for the aircraft he went to to fly 2 tours in Vietnam in the aircraft
It's amazing that the US military was forced to keep secrets from... itself. And all because of some inflexible policy crafted by people who would never have to live out its implementation. I'm glad that the experienced Air Force pilots welcomed Ken Lee with open arms and treated him as an equal. I'm also glad that recognition is being made today.
Your narrative mentioned "L-9 Birddog". The Birddog had two designations throughout it's history. First called the L-19, and later with an O designation was called the O-1. The L-9 was much earlier designation applied to the Stinson Voyager when used in the military.
Love your videos brother, keep it up. I’d like to see a video on the SOG guys in Vietnam. I recently learned more about those brave men and wow they were badass.
Bad when you have to fight two enemies, one the North Vietnamese, the other your own air force. Appears the air force was afraid the Army would show them up, or get money the AF thought they deserved. Kudos to the two AF pilots for honoring the Army aviator as an equal.
I mean, less than a minute into the video and there's a glaring error. I really think the guy who does the narration knows nothing about military history and is just reading from a script.
CPT. Ken Lee and COL. Robin Olds.. Two pilots that put the safety and mission of others before idiotic service red tape... God we need more like them today...
Back in the late 80's I worked for Grumman. The Mohawks flew in to be refurbished. We took the plane apart and put it back together, better then ever. Saw some bullet holes and occasionally a little meat around the bullet hole.
The Mighty Mohawk was the best aircraft that ever graced the Army inventory. I have over 1000 hrs in the right seat and it was the time of my life! SCAM baby! Spuds all the way!!
I was assigned to a Mohawk unit in Germany. Where can I find that patch and a set of the "Oculi Cultus Secreti" brass? some communist stole my jacket with all my patches and brass and I'm still trying to replace the ones from Germany....
Seriously, why should politics interfere with a pilot saving his life, his aircraft and completing his mission if it involved shooting down a fuggin enemy plane?? Inter-service rivalry is one thing, but an agreement that actually cripples one group for the benefit of another is shortsighted at best and outright damaging at worst. Grats to Captain Lee, and good on the Air Force colonels who treated the pilot like one of their own and to hell with the politics.
I had the chance to meet Robin Olds, cool dude. I was a kid, so no drinking tales, but I was already in awe of him and probably the only person I've met and been star struck.
Love these stories. One correction, first Secy. Defense last name was Forrestal and not Forrester. The aircraft carrier and the Dept of Energy HQ named after him.
@@broznkyra4853 Not the one I was talking about it was either a Kiowa or Apache. Don't remember which one. I thought it was an older mig that was brought down. The only reason I remember it was because the pilot who did was the arm convention in DC in the late 90s. He gave a speech when I was in the Honorguard. They had us watch all the weapons at night and escort the drunk Generals around
It's really cool that two other air force pilots wanted to celebrate and give him respect for his kill regardless of the military branches bickering. Bureaucracy really sucks.
Col. Olds is a legend
@@JetsBauer he's an OG
@@JetsBauer So was Chappie James
@@tommyblackwell3760 Hell yeah he was
it's not bureaucracy, in this case it was the us army violating their own plans tho. It was either keep it secret or lose the planes, leaving people unprotected.
Everyone, you're sworn to secrecy
"alright, but did you hear about that army captain that shot down a friggen mig?"
in an ov-10!! holy shit!!
Just imagine if social media had been around back then!
@@joeshmoe9978 it was. only they called it "old men arguing in the barber shop".....
@@lukewarmwater6412 This was not an OV 10 Bronco this was an OV 1 Mohawk which is even more amazing.
Good footage of Robin Olds, probably the coolest guy ever.
Imagine my surprise when I found out that Robin Olds had lived at the YMCA in my small town in Pennsylvania for a time.
The story goes that the Congressman who was buddies with Olds dad that sponsored him for his appointment at Wast Point was the representative from my area, I guess in order for Olds to be sponsored by him he had to technically be a resident of the area so he moved here and stayed at the YMCA until it went through.
Also his dad was a member of the notorious "Bomber Mafia" that ran the USAAC in the years before WW2 and after it became the USAAF shortly before Pearl Harbor.
I'm from the hometown of Gen George C Marshall (you know, the Marshall Plan) who at one point was the Secretary of Defense and imagine my surprise last year when I turned the TV on one day and a guy I went to high school with, Mark Esper, was being appointed as the Secretary of Defense.
Must be something in the water around here.
Great footage, right?!
@@dukecraig2402 wow... thanks for this addition to the story... of Course he'd have to move away and fight for his place, lol! Gosh... so cool to hear your addition to the story.
@@velonico
All of us that were in school with Mark were very proud of him when he got his appointment to West Point.
I'll bet it was his uncle George Esper that had something to do with him getting it, George was an AP correspondent in the Vietnam war and is a legend among war correspondents, he was the only AP correspondent that didn't leave the city of Hue when they were all ordered out during the Tet Offensive, he stayed and covered it, he'd become the AP bureau chief in '73 and stayed in Saigon after it fell in '75, after the war he covered the Jonestown massacre in '78 and the Gulf War and afterwards he was a journalism professor at West Virginia University which is right down the road across the state line in Morgantown Wv, that's also where he graduated from when he got his degree in journalism.
My parents went to school with Mark's parents and George, when I was in the Army after I graduated high school Mark's uncle George wrote a book on the Vietnam war called; The Eyewitness History of the Vietnam War, he went to my mother's house and gave her a signed copy to give to me when I discharged shortly afterwards.
Olds, USAF Maverick for sure.
Air Force: "Nooo! You're not allowed to engage enemy aircraft, that's our job!"
Ken Lee: "Haha, fiddy go brrrrrrt."
Why did the Air Force let the North Vietnamese airplane get anywhere near the Army airplane?
Came here to say this
I killed fiddy men!
The Key West agreement sounds like tieing one hand behind your back and being asked to juggle.
Close air ground support should be the preview of the Army, Navy and Marines.
The Air Force should be limited to Ballistic missiles, national air defence and strategic bombing.
The Key West agreement sounds like political lobbyist interfering in National Security.
Look at the problems that Hitler interfering with German plane manufacturing caused. Insisting planes such as the ME262 and HE177 be required to dive bomb. The ME-262 could have entered service 18 MONTHS earlier. Imagine ME-262, in North Africa and Eastern Russia. The overheating issues that the engines on the HE-177 could have been fixed.
You are looking at the Key West Protocol backwards. Its meant for operational planning BEFORE the war starts.
@@dugclrk it limits who has aircraft to reduce competition over contracts. Definitely a money move. If an aircraft gets into production it doesnt have to worry about another branch outdoing it.
It was all about reducing redundancies, which doesn't always turn out to be the same as increasing effectiveness. But you start with what looks, on the surface, like duplication of effort. And because this directly affects allocations of the budget, it gets personal fast.
What alternative would you prefer to something like the Key West agreement? Sure, we can debate specifics back and forth until the cows come home, but every bureaucracy has a tendency to try to keep expanding and growing its own authority and capability. Imagine if each branch decided what it needed independently...
...The Army starts buying its own troop transport ships and amphibious assault boats so they can move soldiers anywhere in the world. The Air Force decides it should have its own paratroopers to capture enemy air bases, but that leads to them also needing their own heavy air mobile engineering corp to repair said air bases, and why not get some armored fighting vehicles to secure the bases while you are at it. Meanwhile the Navy and Marines decide they need the capacity to perform deep overland operations which means procuring numerous larger fixed wing cargo aircraft that can't land on carriers, along with the associated air bases...
...Pretty soon each branch ends up being just a complete all around military force arguing over which should be exclusively sent to fight an enemy like Iraq in 1991 to justify their own new budget requests. Again, I'm not arguing the Key West agreement is perfect, but I do argue that we need something like to to limit each service. The only other option is to move to a unified command structure and dispense with the traditional branches all together.
When my Unit was deployed to the Balkans there was a briefing between the major players and Aircraft load outs and capabilities were explained so that Units knew what each other were able to bring to bear in shooting match. At that time our OH58D(R)'s were the only Army Helicopter that could be armed to Air to Air missles and we had brought the launchers along with us. The Air Force was livid that we had that capability and was very vocal in the briefing about our not equipping our helicopters with them. I being an irreverent senior Warrant Officer asked if the Air Force was afraid we'd shoot back if they shot at our assets? The incident in Iraq where two F15's shot down two U.S. Army Blackhawk Helicopters had recently occurred and was still a very sore subject. It seems all helicopters look like Soviet Hind helicopters to the AF.
As a previous Warrant, I agree- Air Force pilots are notoriously bad at target identification, probably worse than any other country
Holy shit that’s insane. I’m an Army vet, did 10 years got out ‘17. It’s funny you say AF is bad at target ID but I’ve heard stories of Army Apaches shooting up Bradleys in Desert Storm.
Hey Spiff, so what did the AF guys say back? What’s the rest of the story?
@@zaab-yaoh9302 it was a Lieutenant Colonel who was qualified on OH-58s, but used his rank to "command" from the "much sexier" Gunner's Station of an AH-64 Apache. He mis-identified some British Warrior IFVs as Iraqi BMPs. As I recall, he, and other WOs/Officers, were "uncertain" of identification, however, personnel on the Ground asserted they were taking "heavy fire" and "needed" the helos to attack the "enemy" or there would be American ground casualties...
The LTC was Court-martialed, because he WAS RESPONSIBLE, and he was "joyriding" in an AH-64, not an OH-58 C&C (Observation / Recon) helicopter, like he was supposed to be.
@@zaab-yaoh9302 the TARGET SILHOUTTE used by the US armed forces has Significant Similarity to the Rear Aspect of an M2 BFV (Bradley Fighting Vehicle) {and externally identical M3 Deavers Cavalry Fighting Vehicle}) {British Warrior IFVs too}. There have been numerous tragedies at the NTC (National Training Center) at Fort Irwin, California. Mostly during Live Fire Exercises with AFVs maneuvering an firing on a range more than 10 km long, and several km wide. Its extremely Dangerous Training, however, it is the most realistic training in the world!
IDF Officers and NCO who have witnessed it have said they wished their nation had such a facility!
All the drama between the Army and the Air Force reminds me of the A-10 situation. The USAF fighter mafia desperately wants to kill off the Warthog (with no replacement for it's capabilities) but it's too effective and too popular with ground troops so congress won't let them. The Army would love to take the whole fleet off their hands but the Air Force won't let the Army have armed fixed wing aircraft because that's "their turf".
Time to clean house of some wrong headed generals in the USAF then.
Bring back some Air to Air capability to the Army too.
Not to mention more than a few C-130s and AC-130s.
FinalLugiaGuardian if the army was to have limitations on air capability I think the army should at least have turboprop fixed wing aircraft.
F35>A10
@@kolinmartz like modernized OV-10 Broncos.
We had OV-1's on our airfield along with AF OV-10's when I was in Vietnam in 1971 Have pics. Also met BG Olds when he came through our simulator shop around 1972. Really a neat guy.
Can you show those pics please? And don't think that im not believing, I just want to see those birds in old fashion
The stupid rules we impose upon ourselves. They only hurt us (U.S.)!
Yeah, but we must dress for success... so I think this airman got his recognition... wasn't court-martialed... still was hugged by bad ass Olds...
I think we also need the hush hush once in a while! To remind the world we are professionals. A bit of irony...
Loose lips sink ships! And so do USA aircraft if you wish harm... we just won't publicize when we knock your shit out of the sky...
Either way... were on the same team... just commenting... it was a great video, right! Peace ✌
@@velonico the US military still goes to great lengths to cover things up. The wikileaks collateral murder video for example. It's why they want Julian Assange dead.
@@tubthump exactly what the post is all about. These rules are meant to hurt the US... because if Julian did that here in my country, Assange is already a fertilizer by now. The US has too many rules in favor of criminals, you know because of Human rights.
@@smartpmark Yeah, lets not get civilians get in the way of the warmachine.
Those stupid rules are important. It's silly to split aviation between the army and air force. It's much more effective to funnel the proper funding into one place. I was in army aviation, our perview should be rotary and the air force's should be fixed wings. Splitting it up is silly. I even worked on mohawks, the army shouldn't be running mohawks or c10's.
China training north Vietnamese pilots: "you weren't supposed to be here."
Britain training American dog handlers: "neither should you."
Edit: Jesus these replies escalated quickly
Edit 2: what the fuck guys, this was a meme post and now it political. Please can we go back to making memes and jokes
Old British Army joke - A group of Green Berets in Singapore bar, on RnR from Up Country, spot a table of British Royal Marines. 'Why aren't you Limeys fighting in 'Nam? Too chicken-shit, eh?! A wirey Commando turned to the Americans and replied 'Viet Cong are doing fine without our help, mate!' 😎😎😎
@@Original50 Still dont know why America cares about working with traitorous Britain.
@@spider-spectre
Oh lighten up, that's why it's called a joke.
You know, like the one;
"Overpaid, over sexed and over here."
To which you reply "Underpaid, under sexed and under Eisenhower."
@@dukecraig2402 I just learned that that was a two-part joke!
@@spider-spectre Just after WW2 Britain took on Ho Chi Min and was on the verge of defeating him when the US put pressure on Britain to stop fighting. So obviously the US didn't need Britains help
That’s great , we housed a Mohawk ( we were a large skydiving operation ) with a sweet surveillance pod that was being tested for “DEA” , in S. Florida, still had Desert Storm 1 palm trees and camels on the nose ,very cool aircraft , those huge engines would just drag it through the air , this was back in 2005ish
compare it to the MIG if you can... it seems like an unfair fight but the Mohawk won
Olds and James’s nicknames were “Blackman and robin” legends
I used to work on Mohawks. Like everything Grumman made, it was tough. Fun to fly in too.
I think Lee hit the MiG with 2.75 in rockets (been a while since I read that story). He was not really supposed to have them as Mohawks were not supposed to be armed due to the Key West agreement. A few, however, did fly armed as JOV-1's. The Army is only big on rules until the fit hits the shan...
Thanks for the vid. Nicely done.
Do you know if any have been decommissioned and made available for civilian ownership? They just look so cool IMO and it would be cool to see them in use for recreation at some point.
@@chaseharrison5469 there are a few out there. One for sale on trade-a-plane. They can be a handful to fly. One crashed in Florida last year.
Just F.Y.I., the first U.S. Secretary of Defense was James V. Forrestal, not "Forrestor".
Yep, I caught that one, too. Also, at 2:00 - the "Vietcong" didn't have "air-to-air" missiles. The Vietcong weren't flying any fixed wing aircraft during the war - only the North Vietnamese A.F.
Abe Lincoln was some guy in a top hat.
Either way, an idiot
Army should handle their own CAS. Marines handle their CAS
@@jamesharrison6201 Dude isn't perfect. I'm just happy to get these interesting anecdotes.
I flew in Mohawks just over 3 years as a TO before going to Flight school. All of my Senior pilots were Vietnam Mohawk drivers and they told me this story. Years later in the Gulf War I flew the Cobra. I was cocked and locked and I swore I was going to shoot down a Mi-17 or 24 if I saw one. One never came across my HUD or HSS sadly...
Too much time spent on the Mig-17 background, and not enough time on the OV-1.
maybe that is the limited info he had.
@@iforgotmyusername0 The Ov1D mohawk's (the last model used) has been retired for over two decades. I work on them in 94 in korea... Information on them is pretty common knowledge now and the side looking airborne radar isn't an essential national secret anymore. Even in the 90's, most of the mohawk secrets were out anyways.
@@Thickcurves cool
But we happened to see a Mig-21 too
@@Thickcurves I was T.O. on Mowhawks in 'Nam 70-71
I appreciate the lack of filters applied to the historical footage. Great video.
I was at an air museum when I overheard a retired AF individual tell someone that the AF had all the fixed wing aircraft and the Army had rotors only in Nam I chirped up and mentioned being in a rice paddy central highlands South Viet Nam 101st 1966 and witnessed a Mohawk puddle jumping while providing support. Also mentioned the Caribou we flew in which was an Army jump/ cargo plane. The guy would not believe me but I could care less because I was used to ridicule about Nam. Nice video story. Mohawk driver downing a jet.
Navy Skyraiders had a couple kills too
Thank you serving. My freedom is a gift from you and fellow soldiers. God bless America and it's troops!
Maybe next time ask 'That' guy if he ever heard of Capt. Ken Lee and what he did with his OV-1. Thank you for your underappreciated service.
Gary Strong I remember the little puddle jumpers that were clearly marked U.S. Army. Didn’t believe you? I told a young G.I. recently that the Army had, and operated a fairly large brown water navy in the Delta. He didn’t believe me either.
My dad told someone he flew B-17's out of the Phillipines in WW2. This guy said "There were no B-17's in the Phillipines in WW2" My dad said "There sure were, I flew in them, Air-Sea rescue....the B-17s would shadow the B 29s that often had overheated engines and crashed in the ocean...the B 17s Air-Sea rescure had a huge boat under the fuselage and would drop it...it had a motor a propeller and sails. Google "B-17 Air Sea resuce boats" and click images or videos and be amazed!
It's amazing that our military leaders go out of their way to make it harder for us to win or even survive combat, who would tell a fighter pilot that they cant shoot down the enemy?
It's absolutely a great story. Well done, Captain. You earned your medal with humility, and that says a lot about the character of the person.
The US Air Force should give the US Army the A10s and get the hell out of the Army's way.
Ahhh the gold old ‘60’s
I'm a simple man. I see an upload; I click on video
Thanks to these channels, with every new video, we are enlightened by the lesser known facts, facts that otherwise never would see much light.
So glad this piece of history didn't get lost. Amazing.
thanks dark docs another brillant video
This is an excellent rendition of this story. Thank you for makin the video.
Man, Eminem can talk/rap fast
Dark Docs: Hold my beer
Excellent production... thank you. Glad to see (hear) that you have cut back the loud music to make your voice the main factor.
I appreciate some of your research. I serve in the U.S.Air Force in 1970 I was told In a class of enlisted air force personnel of an air to air kill of a NVA aircraft which had been surprised by resupply helicopters and was destroyed. The report stated that there were 2 aircraft 1 fled the helicopter did not chase.
At a CIA radar base in Laos.
The chief pilot of the corporate flight department I worked at in the 1980's had flown Mohawks on his first tour of duty in Vietnam. He said the aircraft was an excellent platform for ground strafing. You could point it down a road with a column of vehicles and just walk the rudders back and forth and take out the whole column quickly. Another pilot I had occasion to fly with a couple of times, while I was new private pilot was Cliff Johnson, known Army Aviation circles as "Mr Mowhawk" for his long experience in the aircraft and his ability to fly it.
"So anyways I just started blastin"
underrated comment
Great video as always. Thanks for the upload.
Air Force: “remember guys; if anyone shoots anything, it’s us”
Ken Lee: “anyway; I just started blasting!”
Great story..Keep them coming sir thank again
What guns could it carry? Specifically during this historic encounter?
Found this in an article about it. www.avgeekery.com/that-time-a-mohawk-shot-down-a-mig-over-the-a-shau-valley/
As the MiG pilot turned to engage the Mohawks again he got in front of the two 19 shot M159 rocket pods with 2.75 inch unguided rockets and two XM14 .50 caliber gun pods mounted on Lee’s underwing racks.
DexExMachina Tu Thanks for the sauce boss!! =)
The OV-1A had only 1 M3 .50 cal machine gun with 750 rds. Amminition for air to air engagements .
chris younts Yup! It was a late modeled F4U Corsair. An A-1 Skyraider “Sandy” shot down a MiG-17 in Vietnam as well. Along with multiple allied props in late WWII to down Me-262s.
Frank Bradley haha. I fucking love the Corsair and skyraider. I never heard of that story but that’s awesome.
any ones else see the la-15 in the first aircraft flying clip at 2:37 it has high mounted wings instead of mid mounted of the mig-15 and mig-17
Witnessed. But I guess it'll do the trick for the content creator.
I was just checking to see if anyone had already picked up on it! Apparently not many people aside from you guys... a bit of a frustrating inaccuracy, but he might be using stock footage, only so many shots of Mig 15 or 17s and those do kind of look like the La 15 if you dont look to close
Hadi Hammouda Probably stock footage or just missed it, I have noticed a few bits and bobs like this in other videos as well.
I read about the Key West agreement when I was reading the Brotherhood of war series when I was in middle school, and was surprised that it was a real thing
Great series, and yes, it has been a terrible agreement that has ruled for too long. Though there is a lot of bureaucracy in the military that would make you wonder how we can even have the functionality we have in our military. The stupid hurts bad, and now they're making military healthcare even worse.
I actually around 1999 met W.E.B. Griffin in Grapevine, Texas at a book signing there.
Nice guy.
Four of us were standing there talking to him.
Griffin had served in the Army.
All of us talking to him had.
One of the men there was a World War II vet.
But he was more than just that.
He was a Bataan Death March survivor.
I got Griffin to sign my book.
I asked him why he wrote the series on the Brotherhood.
He said and I quote, "The history of Army aviation had to be told..."
If you want to be a Real LEADER study Robin Olds.
Military or Civilians Olds actions are a true character map.
This should have more thumbs... it's mature and goes to a core issue
In business school we studied General Robin Olds leadership qualities here in NZ.
Bold Persian Immortal That’s badass
(Edit: I love NZ and it’s culture, I’d love to go there one day to freedive and sail. Cheers)
Great Story and Thanks!!!!
Excellent fantastic awsome military documentary tour channel is the best thank you.
I had never heard of this incident. Incredible. It was great to see Robin Olds as well. I really like Dark Docs.
I don’t know what’s worse, the relationship between the Air Force and Army, or the fact a MiG got shot down by an OV-1. That MiG pilot must’ve been horrible.
Great historical material, delivered engagingly. Thank you!
Robin Olds had a reputation for bucking authority so it doesn't surprise me that he wanted to celebrate the kill. There is a story in Dan Hampton's book " Lords of the Sky" where he was low on fuel and the tanker said that he was too low on fuel to refuel the F-4 that Olds was in and would not put the boom down.. He apparently said that I've got about 2 minutes of gas remaining and he also had a couple of Sidewinders left and said "just before I punch out I'm going to trigger them off so get your parachutes on." The boom came down.
Another great vid, very entertaining & informative. Keep up the good work. 😉👍👍✌
The Mohawk was an interesting plane. We flew two through the lava cloud created by Mount St Helens and pinpointed a lot of people who were later rescued. It seemed that the Mohawk needed little to no air through it engines to fly which is why we could stay airborne while even the toughest choppers choked on the floating silt. Our unit had trained on this by flying through the carbon dioxide of the Redoubt Volcano in AK.
A buddy of mine was a major and senior Army aviator who took part in the test and development program at Ft.Rucker aviation center and had nothing but praise for the aircraft he went to to fly 2 tours in Vietnam in the aircraft
WELL DONE !!! What a great article/video.
It's amazing that the US military was forced to keep secrets from... itself. And all because of some inflexible policy crafted by people who would never have to live out its implementation. I'm glad that the experienced Air Force pilots welcomed Ken Lee with open arms and treated him as an equal. I'm also glad that recognition is being made today.
I was a ov1 maintenance crew member. // coon rapids mn. Was the hub for ov1,s for awhile
Fantastic story and awesome footage!
Amazing channel. I stop whatever I’m doing when i see a new video posted
Your pace was very good this video. I didn't feel like I was watching on 1.25x. Thanks, and keep up the videos!
Propeller plane shooting down a jet post WW 2 has to be a very rare occurrence. Are any numbers available?
Army? Air To Air Kill? That Sounds About Right
Interesting and informative research as always, thanks!
Your narrative mentioned "L-9 Birddog". The Birddog had two designations throughout it's history. First called the L-19, and later with an O designation was called the O-1. The L-9 was much earlier designation applied to the Stinson Voyager when used in the military.
Some of the research leaves a lot to be desired.
Love your videos brother, keep it up. I’d like to see a video on the SOG guys in Vietnam. I recently learned more about those brave men and wow they were badass.
Mig kill and a Robin Olds connection in the story. Awesome
Bad when you have to fight two enemies, one the North Vietnamese, the other your own air force. Appears the air force was afraid the Army would show them up, or get money the AF thought they deserved. Kudos to the two AF pilots for honoring the Army aviator as an equal.
Enjoyed your video I gave it a Thumbs Up
It never ceases to amaze me that those who risk their lives are the first to give credit where credit is do..
Good one, thank you
Wow, I learned something new about army aviation today. Good story.
Recently read about this in an article. Nice to see a documentary on it.
Great videos really enjoy the content. But the number of ads is getting ridiculous
Nice vid!
You should do a video on Skorzeny, or Erich Hartmann, or Admiral Canaris and the Abwehr. All subjects people don't know much about.
They still flew those in the 80's out of Fort Hood.
First SECDEF was James Forrestal not “Forester.”
I mean, less than a minute into the video and there's a glaring error. I really think the guy who does the narration knows nothing about military history and is just reading from a script.
CPT. Ken Lee and COL. Robin Olds.. Two pilots that put the safety and mission of others before idiotic service red tape... God we need more like them today...
Wow that was really good. This was something that I didn't know about. Thank you.
I love that Chappie James and Robin Olds celebrated a Mohawk pilot's accomplishment. A kill's a kill, even better when David slays Goliath.
I would have appreciated it if you could have discussed the armament package on the OV-1 Mohawk.
There is no protocol in warfare. There is only the primal instinct of survival.
Awesome story!👏🏽
Great story, thank you! So delighted a guy in a Mohawk took down a Mig17!
Back in the late 80's I worked for Grumman. The Mohawks flew in to be refurbished. We took the plane apart and put it back together, better then ever. Saw some bullet holes and occasionally a little meat around the bullet hole.
Wow, this should be a movie. Pilots know no branches.
The Mighty Mohawk was the best aircraft that ever graced the Army inventory. I have over 1000 hrs in the right seat and it was the time of my life! SCAM baby! Spuds all the way!!
I was Obsever in OV 1' s in Nam 70- 71 Long Thanh 71 SAC
I was assigned to a Mohawk unit in Germany. Where can I find that patch and a set of the "Oculi Cultus Secreti" brass? some communist stole my jacket with all my patches and brass and I'm still trying to replace the ones from Germany....
Nothing better then having a line up for a kill
Seriously, why should politics interfere with a pilot saving his life, his aircraft and completing his mission if it involved shooting down a fuggin enemy plane?? Inter-service rivalry is one thing, but an agreement that actually cripples one group for the benefit of another is shortsighted at best and outright damaging at worst.
Grats to Captain Lee, and good on the Air Force colonels who treated the pilot like one of their own and to hell with the politics.
part of why Vietnam was such a hated war. it was a bullshit war in the first place
I think that was my uncle running at 1:28, that is exactly how he ran!
Your video 'Helicopter shoots down a biplane in Vietnam War', was that an Air America helicopter instead of Army?
I have to see that one. I once read about a chopper brought down by a javelin thrown by a VC. It was probably apocryphal, though.
Superb narration Dark, and I'm English!
Nice video
Great story!
The only air to air kill that we know about.
Have you ever done a full episode on the Mohawk employed during Viet Nam and Desert Storm?
I had the chance to meet Robin Olds, cool dude. I was a kid, so no drinking tales, but I was already in awe of him and probably the only person I've met and been star struck.
Do a video about the miracle on the vistula
Excellent story.
Love these stories. One correction, first Secy. Defense last name was Forrestal and not Forrester. The aircraft carrier and the Dept of Energy HQ named after him.
I thought I remember hearing that US Army Helicopter shoot down a Mig in the first gulf war?
Actually the door gunner of a UH-1 shot down an NVA AN 2.an extremely slow biplane still in use for supply runs...
@@broznkyra4853 Not the one I was talking about it was either a Kiowa or Apache. Don't remember which one. I thought it was an older mig that was brought down. The only reason I remember it was because the pilot who did was the arm convention in DC in the late 90s. He gave a speech when I was in the Honorguard. They had us watch all the weapons at night and escort the drunk Generals around
@45Kimber1911A1 Thanks Kimber. I love this Channel, but as soon as he said the only Air to Air from the army since WWII. I knew he was wrong.
Jay Trock They didn’t have Apaches in the Vietnam war
@@ricky6608 No shit sherlock.
That’s exactly why, The Navy will NEVER tell the Army “how to dig a foxhole “ 😂😂.
Nope but they know how to dive in one 🤣🤣🤣🤣
you have the best voice ever for documentaries no homo
Great video, I never knew this happened
Thanks
A war that was to profitable to be allowed to be won.. Another great video DD! Thank you! 👏💯
Robert olds is a legend
They shot down a mig with that! Holley crap. Great vid.