Can we discuss how long the EV truck sat charging before and after towing only 57 miles. If I’m making a typical 300 mile round trip pulling my car, how long will I be off the road charging to save 4 dollars?
Ugggh!! All that dirty extra coal burning at the powerplants for these Not-So-Green ev's. When you're outa juice in the wilderness, you're out of friggin' juice!! EV crowd will have to decide which member of their party they'll have to cannibalize to survive. No thanks!! 😆😂🤣
@@MAGGOT_VOMIT The grid is moving more towards renewables, and will continue to move in that direction, so even if you live in a state that relies 100% on coal (none do, but for argument sake), eventually, the electric car will be greener and cheaper to "fuel". Right now, it's still greener AND cheaper in all but 3 states to run an EV (Wyoming, West Virginia, and Kentucky). I'm not a super-fan of EV's as i'm a pilot and rely on fossil fuels, plus I own 2 V-8 vehicles, one is even supercharged. So unless you live in Wyoming, West Virginia, and Kentucky, it's greener/cleaner to charge your EV than to run a fossil fuel car.
@ awesome-Austin if you only use public fast chargers you won’t save any money over gas, although you do not contribute as much to climate change. Where you save money is if you charge at home. I went from spending $170 to $35 going from my gas car to electric. I also have not done any oil changes in the last five years. I bought a new set of tires at 60,000 miles and I paid for an alignment and that is the only money I have spent. When I had my diesel VW, the 30,000 mile maintenance was $900, so I have definitely saved money with the EV.
If anyone is interested I ran the numbers for New Zealand. F150 - $77.50 based on ¢261.6/L Rivian (DC) - $46.8 based on $0.60/kWh (Chargenet HPC) Rivian (DC) - $42.90 based on $0.25/kWh + $0.25/min (Chargenet 50kW) Rivian (Home AC) - $15.60 based on $0.20/kWh night rate charging
Add to that, the F150 with proper maintenance would last over 2 decades. While the R1T in less than a decade has a battery pack already in route to be replaced, with a cost that most likely totaled the truck.
@@jonnathan780 awwwww do inconvenient problems get you upset? Lets talk about how the battery degrades after time so your range shrinks over the life of the battery.
@@RogerM88 this is something I was interested in and compared to my 2001 ram 2500 with the Cummins. $28000 new. Put 100 k miles on it before I sold it. Kept receipts for most major repairs. Excluding costs which would most likely be needed in the rivian as well, I spent over 15,000 in repairs . Rivian ( per the chief engineer) has a battery life of about 400 thousand miles. Current cost of batteries is between $100 and $140 per kWh. So replacement cost is between 18000 and 25000 for the 180 kWh battery I’m looking to purchase. Battery costs decreasing quickly, so this figure will likely be less in the future. These facts, plus no oil changes or dual fuel pumps to replace (which I had to do on my diesel- twice for the transfer pump) made me keep the rivian in the running for my next truck. Electrics aren’t a panacea, but there is a lower cost to maintain which must be considered when calculating total cost of ownership. Your point is well-taken, battery failures could pump the cost up, but the rivian battery is warrantied for 8 years/175,000 miles which is more miles than I will ever put on a truck. Others put LOTS more miles on their vehicles and current electrics probably aren’t for them until the battery and charging tech improves. But for my use case, electrics will be much cheaper for me.
A nice feature with the F150: the blind spot monitors WILL actually work with a trailer if you program in the trailer into the towing menu. The truck will take into account the length of the trailer and give you blind spot notifications for the new total length of the vehicle and trailer!
It is nice to have blind spot monitoring with a trailer. I love how my Ram does it automatically with no programming. Just hook up the trailer and it sets length accurately itself.
Instead of hoping you programed the truck to pull your trailer correctly and hoping the truck knows how to back your trailer in every possible situation you might encounter, you could, oh, I don't know, learn how to pull/back your trailer yourself. Also, are you really ready to trust your lives to a computer in an emergency situation? As someone who has driven every truck and pulled every trailer legal on the highway over the last 40 years, I can say with 100% confidence that learning how to pull a trailer safely is the only way to go. Never will I ever trust a computer.
@@s.hooper4683 I agree with you - they’re great driving aids, but I would never rely solely on those types of notifications exclusively. Blind spot monitors don’t replace a proper shoulder check, but we all make mistakes, and if that driving aid can help me avoid a collision as a result of something I missed, then I’m all for it!
Great video for me. I drive a 2015 Toyota Tundra and regularly pull 5-6000 lbs of enclosed 7x16’ trailer 3-5 days per week. I ordered a Rivian truck last year. Might get it next year, at their current build rate. I drive 50-100 miles each day for work as a contractor in the Atlanta market. I plan on charging at home. Looks like the Rivian might be a good choice for back to hub driving , like I do. A lot of guys complaining here are pulling trailers longer distances daily. I agree this won’t work for them. But it will work for local guys like me. I will charge at home each night, and limit my outside source charging. This video definitely has me thinking of upgrading my battery to the larger unit. I have been fortunate to lock in the early pricing, and benefited from the 175 shares of ipo offer. The proceeds from the ipo sale will pay for my upgraded battery.
So what this means is if you are a carpenter and you charge at home rates each night, the work trailer is very affordable in this scenario. If you are carrying goods cross country, there is almost no way to do it as chargers in some parts of the country are more than 100 miles apart. With 50 minutes of charging for 100 miles travelled, I am guessing Kyle wont be doing a cannonball run in an EV truck pulling a Tesla in a trailer.
@@venom5809 I did the math on monthly payment vs savings in fuel and it came up to a slight win for the Lightning (vs my 2020 F150 XLT 3.5L Ecoboost). Include less mechanical "wear and tear" maintenance and it's even better. It won't work for everyone but for someone like me who tows AT MOST 100mi/day for my job, this is a win in my books. I'm not a EV fan boy by any means, but whatever makes more sense for the business is going to get my business.
Wow, great video showing the massive benefits of the combustion engine vehicles over the EV's. My 2001 F350 7.3 power stroke diesel gets 18MPGs pulling my loaded car hauler 8000lb. That vastly out performs the EV truck you tested as well as the Ford hybrid. I can honestly say this comparison has just confirmed my gut feeling that I will not be looking to get in to a EV or hybrid in the foreseeable future, and keep running my extremely reliable super duty as long as I can. Even with fuel being 4.75/ gallon for my truck it gets more than double the range for the same distance you traveled and it only takes a couple minutes to fill back up. On a road trip, having to wait for the EV to charge up seems extremely detrimental to the time line of your trip. Seems ok for short local driving but going on road trips over a couple hundred miles seems like a huge inconvenience in a EV. Plus it gets even cheaper for me if I make a batch of bio diesel from old used oil and gas that I can get for free.
Thats been my thought on EV tech thus far. I think EV's are great for a to and from work vehicle or local shopping etc but as a work vehicle there just not there yet. At my old job we looked into switching some of the fleet of work vehicles over, but even if you saved some money short term in the long term the cost of replacing a battery just torpedoed any savings.
The good news with using petroleum is that it's producing carbon dioxide which is plant food which helps to green our Earth. Right now the carbon dioxide level of the Earth is fairly low compared to the average which is 2600 ppm. There would be a super abundance of food if we could get the carbon dioxide levels even up to 1500 ppm.
Completely agree on the highway front. In town this is a good work truck for trades - can tow weights very for short distances. The other real-world test would be 250kgs (~500 lbs) in the bed. Working suburban or rural a diesel hybrid looks like a good option if you have home charging and want range. As for the US gallon/European audience comment... there are more F-150's per capita in Canada and a good F-150 market in Mexico (see Lobo) and those countries are metric so get those litres in there.
@@DerekTinney There may be an issue using a truck like this for trades even in a local setting. I know that when I have had work done on my house the contractors normally ask to use the electricity to run their tools. That is no big deal and not even really noticeable on my electric bill. But imagine 2 or 3 guys coming to your home to do work and plugging their trucks in while they work during the day. You don't think too much of it until you get the bill at the end of the month.
Looks like you chose the towing distance to favor the EV. I rarely tow that short of a distance. You need to do a 400 mile round trip tow and check it again.
In Europe we barrely tow at all.. if or when we really need to tow something big we go to companies to hire & rent a semi-hauler.. Rivian would be so perfect for Europe !
In Europe we barrely tow at all not evem mentioning the long distances.. if or when we really need to tow something big we go to companies to hire & rent a semi-hauler.. Rivian would be so perfect for people in Europe ! ;0)
What do you do for that hour while recharging? Sit drink coffee for the trip, have two pee breaks per person per fill up, and you haven't even left the station yet! Can you imagine the wait if three people are at the charging station? A couple. 2.7 kids, and 1 dog? One hour for waiting, and one hour for waiting for the other person to be done, 12 parking spots. Remember, that's if you dont fill it totally up!! Worrying about getting 57 miles one a trip. Will your job give you THAT MUCH time off for vacation? Could you fill up where you turned around, if things went bad? Awesome looking truck to say the least though. Thanks for the great info. Everyone have a great day!!
The smoothness you experienced with the Rivien is due to the truck weighing more than the trailer. The F150 is almost 3,000 lbs lighter. The closer the tow vehicle's weight is to the tired vehicle, the more control afforded to the towing vehicle.
Tongue weight plays a big role too. Generic trailers can't be designed to optimize tongue weight because every situation is different. Get the tongue weight right and it will tow better. Get it way wrong and you may end up in the ditch.
The Rivian also has independent motors for each wheel which allows it to precisely control the power delivery, stability and grip. No combustion engined vehicle can do that. The Rivian also has the "tank turn" ability which allows it to spin the left and right side wheels in opposite directions and rotate the truck on the spot like a tank. Again something that's not even possible in a combustion engined vehicle. There's a lot more than just the weight making the Rivian stable.
@@trevorberridge6079 It's not possible? Really? You can't put electric motors on ICE vehicle? I guess all people who put winches on their didn't get the memo. You really should think things thru a little better before you type them in for all to read. And why in Hell would I want to rotate my truck on a spot like a tank? But tank is a good analogy for a Rivian since it weighs 7,000 pounds.
@@oneordinarycitizen 🤣Someone doesn't understand that putting EV motors on an ICE vehicle stops it being an ICE vehicle. It's called an EV Conversion. What a desperately idiotic comeback. Leave thinking to people with brains. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm sure the time involved in towing with a vehicle is an important variable. I think an estimate of time involved in recharging/refueling could be an item for consideration. Time is money!
As a plumber/ gas engineer, I cannot afford to be waiting around for my van to " recharge" plus here in the UK, EV vans are restricted on the weight they can tow because of the battery weight... I drive a 2L turbo diesel ( 65 reg Ford Transit)
WOW, I'm apparently NOT the only one when it comes to "time is money" concerns!!! I just saw your comment as soon as I posted my own. GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE!!! 🤜🤛
I own a Model Y. I love the car. Great road tripper too. But, EV’s are not good at towing. No way, no how. I don’t have range anxiety. My bladder and arms start to cramp before my car hits it’s (realistic) 280 mile range. But if I only had 100 miles of range while towing a trailer, I’d have SERIOUS range anxiety. Those third party chargers suck too.
Yeah and he got really lucky with the charging location, not to mention a lot of those pull in spots are for compact cars. Love my EV daily but it will be a while before I replace my work truck with a 100% EV. One of those plug in hybrids where I can do 90% of my daily chores on electric then use the ICE range extender for towing road trips (track day car hauling) would be the best of both worlds, at least until the battery tech catches up. There will be more pull through spaces as fueling stations upgrade but that is way in the future.
@@thebeacon2 I have a Cybertruck on preorder but I've never drove or charged a Tesla. No one has them in Michigan! No Tesla sales or service centers allowed in this state. How much is the Kwh cost for Supercharging? That 35 cents for EA seems high compared to a residential rate of less than 12 cents in most places. Although I guess a Tesla not towing is getting 5x the efficiency of that Rivian while towing, so a much lower cost regardless!
what,on earth, convinced you to buy an ev. did you even look into how there manufactured, costs, longevity, ease of maintenance, ?, anything,?, other than, oh, its clean & green. which they are far from..for longevity,ease all of the above, above all cost. your better off with a decent 80,90,s v8. &, get lpg, fitted, raise the compression, cheap, & 1/3 more power. i have an 82 bronco, on lpg only, fitted 302c heads to the 351c, compression of 12.1. no other mods. goes like a cut cat & cheap. 14 yrs now, never touched it. see how your model y uk, is in 14 yrs. you,ll be on your 5th by then.. ignorance is bliss, watch vids on lithium & cobolt mining,, then ring save the children fund.. happy travels, while you begin to think.. theres a vid on henry ford, cars in general. there was on electric car back in 1920,s. ish, 80 mile range. cost nothing to charge. plus there were steam, even in ww2, your ev, is nothing new, just 300 times the price..
Yeah, I'm all for progress, but we aren't there yet as fast as using EV'S for trucking and hauling long distance. I don't know why people don't just let progress take over and they try to force everyone to start using the EV'S by a certain date. Honestly, of it makes more sense economically to use EV'S they will take over and nobody will worry about it or fight it. But ringing the fuel prices to try to squeeze out fossil fuel is wrong.
I tow a travel trailer with a 5.7 V8. I also have two Honda CR-Z hybrids. I bought the hybrids because I didn’t want to be limited by range (like same year Nissan Leafs that were limited to 35 miles). This video has convinced me that I should consider a hybrid for my next towing vehicle.
One thing to consider, the Rivian's curb weight looks to be a bit "heavier" than the current data for the lightning, so if all other things are equal, wouldn't the rivian be more "planted" while towing? Although I'd prefer the 150's wider body and tow mirrors.
agreed, just rent a pickup if you need to tow all day. Though I bet if I had a Rivian I could find a friend or two willing to trade trucks for a few days. Obviously anyone in the tow all day everyday is looking more into a diesel for that application. I think longer range phev's might be the future for towing with a pickup
Splitting the charging into 2 separate charges saved you over $3.00. The 15min on the first charge needs to be added to the second charge, adding $0.20/min for time. Then both vehicles cost almost the same. You will also find the unloaded mileage of the Ford is also almost 3x better. What were the prices of the vehicles as tested? You could have used a $20000 cheaper Ford hybrid with the same towing capacity.
Since you wished to nitpick in an effort to find the worst case for EV, then we use the worst case for the ICE. The guy didn't need to go to a fueling station to charge his EV. He paid $7.80 to get to the point and he never has to go to the gas station. You then have to factor in the fact you had to drive that ICE there, and it lowers your efficiency. You are also assuming that you needed to actually charge on a charger and that you were not charging somewhere where you actually gained electricity as part of the charge for staying there, which could possibly mean that the charging to get to a destination is actually $0.
@@ronaldking1054 you ever tow far distance? How many charge stations are out there and how long does it take. Factory in the king charge times and if someone is taking the charger how much longer might your trips end up being? Time is also money. They need many more years of developing and expanding to make these vehicles worth it. Until then these are just cool gadgets and new tech for nerds to drool over. They are neat but just a toy at this point and a fad. Everyone wants to pretend they are saving the world by having one. What’s happens if you run out of charge too? Gas truck someone can driver you gas. I guess someone could deliver a generator too.
@@ronaldking1054 I watched a special show on TV where they took a new Ford F-150 and a electric truck and tooled each truck up to the same trailer that had the same load in it and drove both trucks the same 200 mile round trip then filled both up with fuel or electricity. After all the figures were in what it costs to drive both trucks was hardly any difference in cost between the two vehicles. Unfortunately bottom line is it’s not going to make any difference what you drive or what type of fuel you use cause long as others have control over what they can charge the public as a whole that goes unregulated in any way. Not to mention taxes added for roads, etc. that keeps getting added to the cost! We’re all going to be paying thru the nose or a arm and a leg or your first born, whatever the cost is to get you to where you want to go? Our day of getting reasonable fuel prices went away back in the 70’s and with a government that doesn’t really care what we have to pay for fuel we’re pretty much screwed having to pay a fortune whatever we drive?
@@ghostridergale Towing takes half the range so which electric truck did it as there are none with 400 range on their battery packs? It sounds like you described this video, but ignored that he also explained the case for home charging is less than $10.
You and TFL both had a 50 to 60 % reduction efficiency while towing with the R1T, but that is expected. The same reduction in efficiency exist in the IC trucks. MPG of my Suburban is 19 mpg unloaded and it is about 9 to 10 mpg towing a 7700 lbs boat with trailer. As you stated the EV advantage depends on energy price; as long as Gas is over $4.00/gal the EV is favored. The next hurdle that EVs have to overcome is the poor charging infrastructure. Currently EVs are commuting champions and IC vehicles are the road trip champions. Thanks for a great program.
With the exception of Tesla, I believe you are correct. Tesla's charging network is getting pretty good. Tesla's V3 charging stations reduce 20-80% charge times to like 15-20 minutes. By the time you pee and buy snacks, you're back on the road for another 200-250 miles. All the other 3rd party charging companies have a lot of work to do to catch up.
@@N8TheSnake good point. And Electrify America’s rates seem incredibly high. Supercharging for me is averaging 16 cents/kWh over the last month, and 24 cents/kWh is the highest I have ever seen. I can only hope that competition will drive down some if the more overprice network pricing.
"Currently EVs are commuting champions and IC vehicles are the road trip champions." Mostly true - I would argue when not towing, Tesla's or this Rivian (with sufficient charging along the way) are in fact great road trip vehicles. Most people should be stopping for 20 minutes or so every few hours. If I was going really long distances, perhaps that would get old but for most road trips EVs with automatic lane keeping + adaptive cruise control are really nice.
Great video, I am an EV fan, but still drive a naturally asperated V8 truck. Yes I tow getting better mileage than your test truck. I was surprised to see the mileage on the eco boost. Might be nice to do that pull with a diesel and throw those numbers in. This comparison basically showed using regulator gas (at the current price) the cost is ~the same as the EV. and you have 4x plus the range on gas. My added note is electricity costs will rise as they become affected by the higher fuel costs, it just takes a bit longer. So in the near future those numbers may move in favor of gas. Also as we add EVs to the grid I bet the gov. adds taxes and restrictions to your power bill. That said I have 24K of solar off grid so I would actually benefit from an EV, just not a truck... My take away is I'm not buying an eco boost over my V8:)
If I understand your comment, you're stating that the cost you have already paid is not worth using over $27 cost you have not paid and comes from your income for a month or wealth. You cannot even get the money for having too much generation of electricity because you just said it is off the grid. You have also eliminated any increases in price of electricity in your set up so that doesn't even make sense.
I wish these tests assigned an hourly labor rate so you could say it took 10 minutes to fuel the ICE vehicle and 2 hours to charge the EV. This would bring the true cost in line as in everything time is money.
Laughable attempt to increase the cost for EVs. Two hours costs? How much do you charge for your time? Let's be sensible. The longer the distance you drive in an EV the more money you save over using an ICE vehicle. For every 100 miles you drive in an ICE vehicle you'd have to drive at least 300 miles in an EV to rack up the same fuel costs, often a lot further. Minimum wage in America is $7.25 per hour. That means two hours charging would cost you $14.50 in labour if people were suddenly being charged labour costs for waiting for their car to fill up. The average EV costs $8.50 for every 100 miles of driving. The average ICE vehicle costs $29.44 per 100 miles. So you save $20.94 for every 100 miles you drive if you use an EV. You only have to drive 500 miles and that's $104.70 going back in your pocket. If you used my yearly distance as a gauge that would mean at least $2,931.60 saved annually over using an ICE vehicle on fuel alone. And that's not counting the "fuel" you create with regenerative braking as you drive which is ABSOLUTELY FREE. If you want to add random non-existent costs to try and make the EV more expensive then I'll counter you with ENDLESS FACTS AND MATHS.🤯
A laughable attempt by you to make the EV truck look practical for hauling anything any real distance. You can argue all the dollars and cents costs all you want but it doesn't change that fact. And at the end of it's service life all you have is an expensive boat anchor that will only cost more to recycle.
@@trevorberridge6079 Laughable attempt to justify an EV!!! 1) if you're making minimum wage, you cannot afford an EV. 2) do the calculation at $50/hour, like the average person makes. Two hours of charging costs closer to $100 than $15. Now do the math... Okay, now let's tow my RZR to my daughter's house - 600+ miles one way, or 9.5 hours. Oh, forgot, the EV has a range of 100 miles before you have to stop for 2 hours to charge it. Oh, and it's rural OR, so long stretches with no gas stations, and certainly no charging stations! But if there were charging stations every 100 miles, it would turn my 9.5 hour trip into a 21+ hour NIGHTMARE! Then, there's the trip home... Seriously, EVs are not ready for prime time, no more than solar is. EVs are bad for the environment (lithium mines, etc.) bad for the roads (much heavier than gas vehicles) and bad for the landfills (batteries have to go somewhere). Just say "NO" to EVs. They're useless feel-good vehicles for uninformed hippies.
@@trevorberridge6079 It depends what is the value of your time and is it wasted time. If you have no way to use that time and it is during your workday, it is easily very expensive.
Btw Outofspec missed a large bit of info Wellington-Cheyenne is a 1311ft vertical elevation change. Not just a small% of elevation change over distance. ...Missed one big equation xtime vs xmoney$(time ismoneyl and goung 500 miles is a 2 day affair with the Rivian. Ford is 500 miles ahead the following day.
Not counting all the down time while charging too… I thought we where out of grid 5-10 years!Here in Ca we have outages because of all the AC units running during summer
@@jamesegbert3564 Yup the grid can't handle true EV adoption, and this 7k trailer in the example is entry level trailer in terms of weight. EV have a long way to go. ... honestly the battery tech, and ability to charge have a long way to go Electric motor have been moving freight via trains for decades.
@@davez2989 exactly. for pure power electric motors have little issue. Using Hydrogen as a storage medium would shorten refueling/charging time for electric while getting the benefits of more powerful motors
@@jamesegbert3564 and lets not forget when your POWER COMPANY shuts shit off so as to not risk yes ANOTHER deadly fire due to them NOT burying the lines and secondly for NOT maintaining much of the power liens in the state much like Texas does not do shit to maintain its power lines
Interesting!!! I'm from Costa Rica, Central America, and here DC fast charging has similar prices than yours. I did some math because I was interested in buying an EV, but because high DC costs, from a financial point of view, it was a really bad choice. By the way, time charging has to be considered when you have an EV as a work car or truck, because when vehicle is not running, it is not "making money". In this test, was like 50% time driving and 50% charging, not so good. Greetings.
Please remember that he said that the gas truck was actually a hybrid, and at one point he mentioned that the electric motor was assisting the gas motor.
@@justinweatherford8129 yeah, but because load was really high and battery has a low capacity, the electric assistance is really small, actually that's why, in this conditions, they get basically the same fuel consumption of a non hybrid Ecoboost. (By the way, in these days gas prices are too high too, if they go down, the comparison between ICE and EVs will be worse for EVs, and we have to add that minerals like lithium, nickel and cobalt are going up too). Greetings
Another aspect of this is the price of gasoline is determined on what it costs to make and the price of the electricity doesn't. And all of the fossil fuels that it takes to make the electricity. And that is what people don't understand. They think that the electricity comes from nature.
Most towing scenarios are into the hundreds of miles so with time to charge and inconvenience of station access (if you have to disconnect trailer), heating and air-conditioning and the fact it takes 1 hour to go from 90% charge to 100%? I think I would just rather look for a gas station, pull in, pull out in 10 to 15 minutes. Long distance EV towing seems not to be an option, imo
They just want to trade one evil for another. Lithium mining is their dirty little secret where the earth is still being polluted just in a different way along with child labor being used to mine the lithium in the Congo but hey people will still buy them just like those child labor Nikes people wear. It's all downhill from here, the IDIOT that's in charge is destroying the US and making people believe it's for the better. How you gonna put fuel in those cars how you gonna put food on the table? It's all a larger plan to take control and into communism, enjoy what's left cause the party is over and hell is upon us....
your right about time = money but this is just the start .tech will keep up with demand eventually remember dial up internet and now its up to 5gig 13 years later
@@markmorales573 I do remember all that but we're talking about energy consumption which is probably less now for computers that aren't towing anything...we can only watch and see where batteries go or some other power source that doesn't require rare earth metals etc
@@wdwilson397 i agree ,just saying its just getting started .,but im more worried about the batteries exploding like celpones and those little two wheeled things used to do ,those were small batteries in comparision
Great video. Love seeing the EV pulling a trailer. What I found amusing is that my 6.7 Cummins turbo diesel is more efficient than both of these light duty rigs in the towing scenario. Even at $5+ per gallon, the big diesel 3500 Ram is more efficient and this trip would cost about $25. We tow a fully enclosed two car hauler with a gooseneck hookup. The trailer weight is just over 16,000# and the total combined weight of the truck, trailer, and cargo is around 25,000# which is just under its max capability. With that we get 11.5-12.3 mpg. The range is over 300 miles with the stock ~30 gallon tank. The size of the trailer doesn't actually matter too much and efficiency would only be a little better with the tag 7000# trailer in the test. And yes with a 3500 Ram single wheel rear axle you don't notice a trailer and acceleration is amazing - after all we the truck has about 1000 ftlb of torque. I would love an EV to replace my diesel with, and someday pretty soon I do believe that EV trucks will be pulling real loads real distances. It won't be long.
The dirty secrets about Lithium mining haven't seen mainstream exposure yet, and likely won't due to leftist "green policies" (propaganda). I will maintain/repair/replace every single item on a diesel before going to an EV
@@jamesphillips2285 Not towing on level ground, but not towing in the Rockies either. We are based in CT and New England, PA and upstate NY have plenty of rolling Hills. If we haul at high speeds, we get lower mpg, but at 70mph she really does get close to 12 mpg with a full load.
@@Isaacs-hw3bh yea I agree & that sounds about right for our f350 6.7. It was 995 ft/lbs stock so a little more now & it will dang near jerk the trailer off the ball. Only run goosenecks & you can't tell its there either. These new diesels are totally different than the older ones, the ol 7.6 power stroke was good but doesn't even compare to the newer diesels! 👍
The results are what I expected. In a nutshell...ice over 70 years R&D. Rivian, what about 13 years. They end up being so close they're nearly equal. That tells me everything I need to know. Yes, diesel will be better, for now. Batteries will continue to improve. Charging will continue to improve. Charging stations will continue to improve. Hats off to Rivian.
One thing to keep in mind is that the EV charge network they used (Electrify America) charged a lot more than other networks - Tesla Superchargers are averaging 16 cents/kWh for me over the last month, and the highest rate I have seen them charge us 24 cents/kWh.
The problem is going to be to drive 500 miles your going to have to charge it twice at least. And as more and more people start charging who's to say your not going to have to wait behind 3 people charging and your 6 hour trip is going to take 12 hours.
Every use case is going to be different. If you're towing cross country, then having to charge every 100 miles is gonna suck. If you charge at home and stay with in range then it's going to be great. Some people are also going to value the lower emissions and plus gas is going to average up in price (not even looking at current conflict pricing)
Only if you’re getting paid by the mile for freight or something like that. Most peoples trips aren’t that long luckily. The reason long haul trucking can’t work with the EV model.
Had he driven 60mph instead of 70mph, he not only would've made up some, if not all, of the cost in fueling, he still would've been back on the road sooner.
The most important factor in this test was the obscene markup of the commercial charging point, compared to charging at the retail electricity price at home. Looks like there is a huge market for cheaper charging systems. This tells us there is going to be a LOT of competition in the near future that will drive commercial charging costs way down. I suspect this means every motel and diner along the interstate is going to install multiple charging points.
I was about to ask to see this same test with a 3/4 ton diesel, since the diesel economy is much greater than that of gasoline while towing or under load.
Lmao and they are talking about making electric big rigs. You can see here that it would never work. Range is the biggest problem and then charging time. Time is money and if you can't drive very far and then have to charge all day its laughable. And judging by this video the cost per mile of an electric semi would be the same or more than diesel.
Great documentary, I was shocked to see how much it cost for the electricity. that's a new Rivian too, new battery, new cables under the hood, more expensive to buy. Makes me think that the diesel F350 is probably the cheapest use for heavy towing :-) hummm.
In my last three pick ups, all four wheel drive, I never got less than 12mpg while towing trailers of similar weight. The F150 Hybrid got only 7.8mpg and the range on the EV was at best abysmal.
Yeah I question this also. I made the comment that I had a 94 Chevy truck with a 350 V8 and still got 8 mi per gallon towing a heavy truck/trailer. They really didn't use the right truck for this test
I get that these are situationally cool vehicles, but they're definitely niche. For example I'd LOVE one, but we tow a 9200 lb camper behind our Expedition, often 500 miles plus. It would take DAYS to complete that with this. Around town/short towing niche? They'd be amazing. Say a local landscaping or mowing company, or something like that, but if you do any distance towing, they're useless (As they are now). You hook my 37 foot RV behind that thing and it will make it 50 miles. I'd love for electric to make sense, but it shouldn't be crammed down peoples throats with our tax dollars in subsidies if it isn't ready for all situations.
Battery trucks will never replace fossil fuel trucks. Hydrogen power will, and that's why no one, including Tesla, is mass producing battery semi trucks, or even battery pickup trucks for towing.
crammed down peoples throats with our tax dollars in subsidies come on dude this just helps peeps that want one for real it ant like they say they are outlawing gas vehicles
The subsidies allow the vehicles to be made and we learn leasons on what works, doesnt and we are all the better for it. Kinda how technology from NASCAR or F1 racing makes it into evertday cars. It is all an experiment. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it takes money and people to find out.
Awesome video. You validated what I expected. I often tow a 6500lb boat and trailer 180 miles in an area where there will never be charging stations. Also you demonstrated the problem of charging when connected to a trailer! I am interested to know how long it actually took to charge. Needless to say no ev truck for me. Thanks again.
Lets do all we can to make that so, for you and the rest of U.S. Seems that soon the PTB may give us no choice as to using fossil fuels and attempt to transition our nation with virtually NO real forethought. More than 1/2 of Americans cant afford food nor housing and they expect us to purchase these inefficient tinker toys!? A change so radical will cause the ruin of many. Seems that is what they want.....
Another thing, in a pinch you can throw a few 5 gallon cans of fuel in the back to get you thru the trip. Can't do that with an EV unless you want to lug a generator with you... which will take fuel, so kind of defeats the purpose.
That Rivian is about 100k brand new judging by all the options it has King ranch is about 65k brand new How many years of driving a rivian does it take to get the 35k back, and how reliable at consistent towing is it going to be? I bet the wear and tear of towing loads like that on a normal basis would be dramatically worse on the rivian then any normal sized truck, even less wear on diesels (which are still cheaper then this rivian) and to have parts repaired is way cheaper on gassers, A new engine from a dealership would be around 8k and a new battery would be 20k+ The Longevity of a vehicle and reliability of one is more cost saving and important to the every day person. EV batteries only lasting around 100k miles on average is something to consider if you drive ALOT and don’t plan on upgrading into a newer one as often as people do phones😂 because 20k for a new battery every about 100k miles will be quite the ache for someone without a giant bank account. Then you have to take in account long road trips, because time is money and all the time you’ll be waiting for it to charge could’ve been time spent already on the road Here’s the biggest one for TOWING tho… what happens when you’re pulling a trailer and there’s only one space between 2 cars or it’s at the end? Are You going to disconnect the trailer somewhere everytime just to recharge? There’s even more time spent not getting to where you’re going.
ANOTHER VERY WELL SAID COMMENT!!! Look guys, I'm ALL FOR technology, but it just is NOT THERE YET and I don't see it ANY TIME SOON to being there? Plus I keep telling people, you MUST think about the power grids and such. You just CAN NOT expect each and every city to be able to handle that type of "load" from the power grid and/or have THAT many charging stations for ALL EV's that pass through and ESPECIALLY, at least for now, take about an hour or more, just to charge up!!! Anyways, SO GLAD I'm not the only one thinking outside the box because the people I work with DON'T!!! They think I'm against technology and such, when in fact, I'm just thinking outside the box and logically about the facts as stated by many here!!!
Please show links that show EV batteries last only 100K on average. Who would want an EV at all if that were even close to being the case? Teslas are million-mile cars. The oldest Teslas are over 400K miles so far, with very little degradation. Even crappy, tiny, old Prius batteries are lasting 200K+ miles. Obviously, there will be the outliers that have batteries that go bad through abuse or just plain bad luck, but this number is extremely small, especially compared to the seemingly poor reliability of an average ICE. Currently, I'd only trust a Toyota gas or hybrid to easily attain 200K+ miles without proper maintenance (for a worst-case scenario). I'm excited to see the EVs they will be bringing out. Nothing's perfect right out of the gate. Heck, there are some manufacturers that still can't make a dependable and long-lasting vehicle, 30-50 years later. Technology is changing at a blistering pace, and the issues of charging times, infrastructure, battery composition, etc. are being aggressively addressed by pretty close to all vehicle makers on Earth.
And top it all off over time that battery will need to be replaced which will eat up everythng you saved at a huge price plus the R&R labor and then there is the disposal fee. And don't even think about having an accident and that battery manages to get punctured..
interesting test but now lets see it running at night in a snow storm in sub-zero temps and the heater is blasting, wipers going, 4wd system working hard... In my parts this is a normal drive multiple times a week in the winter hauling snow,obile trailers... I'd bet the pure electric truck would gobble up the kwh's...
They are already installing fuel operated heaters in EV's over here to combat that problem. It actually makes sense as now you are using the fuel for heating only when needed and at very high heating efficiency, unlike when burning it through the engine for heat (in which case at least 50% is lost, due to the engine being outside, exhaust, no insulation, etc.).
Yes, I have been waiting for a test like this... it proves to me that my gas and diesel are the real deal... I dont need to drive 100 miles to sit 45 minutes for a charge
You missed a couple other factors. Time to charge has a value to be included in overall cost. My hourly rate is $35. That has to be factored in. Comparison of total range wasn't addressed. On a 300 mile trip = 3 charges. All these factors have to be included in the evaluation
Agree Cost of Labor is a real cost and needs to be included in the cost comparison (other cost elements need to be included as well to truly compare cost).
300 miles would be 2 charges. You start with a full charge every morning at home. It would be 3 for the return trip... unless you have overnight charging at the far end .. but assuming you return immediately 5 charges total. Also filling up a truck isn't time free.
Great video, really appreciate all the details and hard work you guys do getting the information. Certainly does kind of confirm that if you tow regularly over long distances. You're probably better off with the gas truck. The other thing is you don't necessarily have to be buying an F-150 King ranch that cost that kind of money. There are plenty of less expensive options for work trucks that could tow. But I think the biggest problem is going to be whether anybody actually wants to stop every 90 to 100 miles and have to sit for however long deal with unhooking a trailer just to go another 90 mi. Certainly gasoline is expensive and you have maintenance and other things that come into play with the internal combustion truck. But you also have to think about what your time is worth. Especially if it's a work-related towing job. It just isn't going to work. Now if you're just talking about towing a boat or a small utility trailer every once in awhile then it's going to be perfectly fine to deal with that inconvenience. But no one is going to tolerate putting up with that day in and day out nor could they afford to waste the time to do so. Thanks again for all the hard work you guys do it's really appreciated.
I agree time is a huge factor I charge 80 an hour minimum for my business where does that cost come in to play when it takes five minutes to fill up with gas and an hour to charge who do I get to pay that bill. I certainly cannot afford to lose that time
not really sure what is the meaning of this "test"... the proper test would be to use similar trailers behind both vehicles, set up a destination that is above either trucks maximum distance with a "full tank" and then measure the time. Where I live, I would do the test in -5F... Because over here, we like towing trailers outside "optimal temperature", not because we want to, but actually have to. For some reason with electric trucks it all about price? It should be about utility. I know for sure that if I need tow something anywhere, here I need to get back also without a chance for refill/recharge. I actually did equip my other Isuzu with a generator to go and power toy cars, much easier than to just haul them to nearest "quickcharge-station"
To make it more fun, if it took 10 minutes to fuel up the truck, that's how long the electric vehicle should be charged for... that would be a good test. And run it then and see how long it would last and not use the quick charger, there is no quick fuel at the pump
@@thresh9606 only big truck diesel pumps are high flow due to no filler neck on the fuel tanks, regular gas tanks have bends in their fuel neck going into the tank, fuel would be blowing back out the fuel spout if they used high flow pumps for gas
this was obviously not a time comparison video... It takes thousands of years to store the energy in gasoline, not to mention huge refining operations and having to explode it in your vehicle just to extract the energy back out. Gasoline is like liquid pre-charged battery. With EVs, most of that work is done at the charging station, and it's a wonder that you can charge a battery in a matter of hours rather than millennia.
I fill my F450 at truck stops, with their fast fuel dispensers, 10 minutes from the time I pull the nozzle from the pump to put it back would probably completely fill my 48 gallon tank.
They forgot to add the additional cost of eating lunch while the EV charged. Plus, how much longer would it have taken to tow your camper 600 miles to an area without a charging stations in the sticks of Arkansas. Other than that, the Rivian was very impressive.
Of course there is WAY more maintenance costs with gas/diesel. Oil changes, spark plugs, fuel injectors, tranny fluid, front and rear diff fluid, tranny fluid etc.
@@sitkarules1 so in 100k miles my diesel needs 10 oil changes, 0 spark plugs, 1 transmission and diff oil change… using an EV like I use my diesel would put you at End of Life of the EV batteries with an average replacement cost of $15k, which is much more than my maintenance costs, not to mention the DAYS worth of waiting for charging to go any significant distance, but go on…
@@shamarerskine3987 It's not about the food. Read on. Lets take a trip of 500 mile with stops at 100 mile for fill up or top off. Total of 4 stops even thought the F150 want need 4 stops. There will be less cost with the gas truck. Assuming 45 minute charging time compared to 10 minute fill up. The Rivian would take 10:08 hours at to arrive and the F150 would arrive in 9:45 driving at 55mph making the drive safer and more fuel efficient. Time not charging is an advantage to the F150. And if the Rivian has to disconnect the trailer to charge up??? For local trips, I'd pick the Rivian. For long hauls, I'm going Gasser or diesel.
One thing I noticed was how much louder the EV was on the road. Overall, I think as a towing vehicle, the Rivian is not even an option just for having to wait to charge & range. Most tow for their business or recreation, & with time being money or fun time, the Rivian loses.
Pulling my 30' TT 80 miles and stopping for an hour to recharge doesn't sound like a lot of fun. With my Chevy 1/2 ton range is 200 plus and takes 5 minutes to fill up. And never have to worry about "can I get to the pump". So no thanks to EV for me.
Apparently you you didn't listen to his several comments about how much better the rivian drove. One needs to think about all aspects. Have a nice day.
Yea….. not trading my 7.3 for this electric Tacoma. I would never get work done if I had this thing. All the time would be spent charging. These trucks will always be for people who don’t actually NEED a truck.
@@russhills2773 it dove better because it weights hundreds of pounds more then the F150, and it has 4 corner air ride. A good weight distribution hitch will take the bounce out of the Ford. Not that it matters tho, ICE for the win.
My old 1995 F250 7.3 Powerstroke got 9 to 11 mpg usually pulling passes on much longer trips while pulling a 30' RV trailer about the same 7500 lb weight. I once got 13 mpg on I-5 from near Olympia Wa to Roseburg Ore no passes. I still own it from new, now with 148k on the speedo. I have not done a mpg test with a load for many years but a few months back I checked mpg and the truck still gets 22 cruising at 65 - 70(same as when new) on a 6hr trip one way hauling 2 IBC tanks that don't weigh much but they were about 5 inches above the cab creating some wind resistance. I noticed the Rivian with 86% when calculating towing the estimated range was 122 miles. I seldom hooked up my RV without pulling 250 miles before stopping.
On the ecoboost when towing you can lock 7th gear, which increases rpm's, but keeps it out of boost keeping mpg's up. As a side benefit it also keeps the engine cooler because it is circulating more coolant.
I never tried that before, so basically you make 7th gear your top gear eliminating 8,9,10 ? how much of a increase did you see in mpgs? I usually average 8.5 to 11
@@dinosaurqueen7634 your range seems about normal, maybe 1 mpg more. But, your engine will run cooler and be mostly in the higher end of your mpg range.
Great video ! It's not the usage that is the de-terminating factor, it's the range and time. I myself can't ever see a semi ever being electric until you can charge them in the same time that you can fuel one. Fossil fuels still give more power, range and save time and electric uses more fossil fuels to do less from what we currently use.
EVs have a lot more power. The Tesla semi can go 65MPH vs 45 MPH up a grade with a load than a typical diesel semi. It has a 500 mile range, loaded. This is also a significant time savings over a diesel in hilly or mountainous terrain. Much of the charging can be done during sleep, or breaks.
@@xeridea Much of that is negligible at this exact point in time though...meaning EV semis still have to improve to match many of the characteristics of diesels.
People continue to leave out the gas tax factor. Much of the cost of gas, is tax that is used to maintain roads and highways infrastructure. Electric vehicles will have to carry this burden soon so expect a 30 cent per mile tax added to your EV via your mileage sent directly to the IRS
Now imagine the time loss between a diesel pickup towing that same trailer, getting 13 mpg, at $5/gallon, dragging it 1100 miles (in 17 hours in the diesel, with 5 minute refueling) SMH - there's no place, in the real world, for EV trucks.
Why would I want to imagine that? I use my truck around town, home depot, ganahl, etc. I rarely put more than 100 miles on it a day. Plug it in when I get home and I'm basically spending like 45 seconds on "filling" it over a month. If I need to go longer, I use a different vehicle.
@@grakkerful So you just buy a truck for status not the real reason a truck was built? Please do not try to defend yourself on this because you literally just said that without actually saying it. So with that said your comment was pointless to say the least and proves how little you actually need a truck because if you need a truck so little at this point of only needing to charge it for 45 seconds a month then you don't actually need a truck. Where as the person that made this original comment is more than likely trying to point out a situation you do need a truck for. EV trucks are nothing more than a "Status Symbol" stating..."Hey look at me I bought something that costs $80,000. I am better than you." but completely ignore the fact that you bought a truck that has no point on this planet other than to be much more damaging to the environment and it will cost you more money to maintain it in the long run than the gas powered truck. If you don't believe me crack open a science book once in your life and actually read it, don't just nitpick hypotheticals that "proves" you right, read the full data and real world testing. Now with that said next time....think before you open your mouth it might save you some time and embarrassment from rebuttals like mine. But alas you are going to ignore what I said, make some really dumb statements, insult me as a person, and then block me instead of getting a proper education on something before opening ones mouth.
@@ricosuava21 Lighten up, Francis. I said I'd spend 45 seconds of MY time. Come home, plug in. I use my truck to move materials around my town and a couple other close ones. I don't know what weird incel gatekeeping you feel you're doing, but it's both low effort and high ignorance.
Oh, this one is easy. With National Grid here in MA, you pay only $0.155 per kWh for the electricity, but then they whack you with $0.168 per kWh in fees like "Delivery Fee", "Transmission Fee", "Green Energy Fee", etc. So, unless fuel is over about $3.60 a gallon (which historically it does not stay that high here - typically in the $2.50 range) the EV is more expensive without the trailer.
The big difference is I can do that loop time after time with the gas engine , same for a diesel. With electric I may need to need to sit there for hours depending on the charging rate, how depleted the batteries are and the temperature before leaving again. If I'm out in the country I can easily find gas finding a place to plug in, not so easy. PS using fuel that's higher octane rated then the owner manual calls for only wastes money. In modern engines there is no reason to do so nor will you get a performance boost.
@@stevemurphy1051 Anymore I'm much more cynical. I think it was to insure the electric truck was cheaper even if it was only by a little. Running regular gas would have made the gasoline truck less. That wouldn't have fit the narrative.
@@Cosmic_Railgun That's not what I heard. I heard him say IF they had used regular it would have been less not that he calculated it to the same as if they had. Even then it still is an apple to oranges comparison. People have a misguided idea of what the difference between regular and high test is. The difference is only the fuels ability to resist knock. There is actually more BTUs in a gallon of regular fuel. Unless an engine is designed for premium a truck will also get better fuel mileage on regular. With todays prices it doesn't take much fuel to make up 4 dollars.
Also, Keep in mind that not all roads are flat. tow with an EV in moderate hilly areas and you'll soon discover the reality of towing with an EV, its not as good as you would like both in cost and distance.
After watching this well made and informative video - these are the takeaways; 1. The owner sat there for almost 1 hour to recharge the truck - contrast this to maybe 5 minutes to refuel the F-150 truck! 2. With all the talk about distracted driving I'm quite surprised that US DOT even allows such large screens as a visual distraction . I wonder if there has been a study on the distraction of these large informative screens compared to say - changing a CD in your car or perhaps heaven forbid - talking on the phone! 3. With more and more people living in an apartment where little to no thought of charging has be established the charging cost will for many be the higher number. 4. So , while the lure of EV's are nice they are NOT ready for prime time if for no other reason the wait to charge time that hasn't really sunk in to the general population yet! I propose a test --- Lets imagine that just 50% of the residents of, say, Denver at 7 PM plug in their 50 amp load and see what happens to the power grid on say the 4th of July! Just my two cents.
Yes, due to the cost of regular houses more and more are moving into apartments or town homes. Zero of these new builds in my area have EV charging. Obviously in an apartment it is impossible because each parking spot is designated for each occupant with a few overflow spots and a couple for visitors. No one will add an EV charging station to every designated parking spot. It will never happen, maybe 2 to 4 spots will be designated for charging but who gets that to charge their vehicle overnight.
I can go 400 miles in my fx4 pulling 3500 lbs and 400 lbs in the bed. Best thing is it takes less than 5 minutes to fuel back up and head out. Have 0 problems
well even if you increased mileage driven to 75 each way i don't think someone like this guy can ensure he drives the same each time which WILL affectthe outcome.
Fueling is faster, for now, but ICE trucks dump more pollutants into the air. I'll take the extra time to help preserve our only planet. Not to mention, I love the quiet of the electric vehicles.
@@philborer877 look up lithium mining not so environmentally friendly. Where do you think that power is coming from to charge an electric car. Here's a hint fossil fuels
When I look at all these tests on UA-cam there's one key factor that stands out besides the obvious price difference between an R1T and F150 and that's Time. If I factor in my hourly rate as an IT consultant I'm losing more money on the road with the R1T recharging vs in and out at the gas pump in less than 5 minutes. Now add the not so impressive range here to overlanding with an off road RV like the Opus 15 or HQ 15, I'll be stranded on the first off road trip hoping that someone can tow my R1T like the long way up series.
If you factor your hourly rate as an IT consultant, it makes no sense that you tow whatever it is at all. Any transportation company can move what you need much cheaper than you . 🤪
The vast vast majority of EV's charge at home so add the many many gas stations visits and oil changes that don't happen in an EV. Add solar and gets even cheaper. I can't even imagine buying a new gas car today unless the use case was frequent towing or long roadtrips past 400-500 miles.
@@e-redjmy time is worth the same towing or not towing, but I doubt I'll find a transportation company to tow an overland/off road RV.- off the grid from let's say Phoenix to Yuma which we do each year.
@@ezmn9663 exactly let's take your ending, road trips from ME to AK, NY to AZ on a whim I would still need to pull out my Ram that I have an extended range LRAM tank for and 20 additional gallons in reserve giving me a range of over 700 miles when towing at 8 to 9 MPG. Right now it just doesn't make any sense for my main use case - overlanding.
Let me add, I was one of the first to call Rivian where I had asked about extended off the grid road trips if I could set up a charging station off the RV using a LifePO4 setup with Solar over an extended period of time. Like setting up Camp in Moab for a week. The key here is with pups traveling and towing the limited range just doesn't work. .
Interesting. My 22 year old Chevy pickup (K3500) one ton/4 wheel drive with 320,000 miles gets 9 to 12 mpg pulling similar weight trailer. Of course the 5.7 v8 only needs regular gas.
I have a 1999 F150 4.3 8 cylinder, Triton motor, Automatic tran. Does not need premium gas. Driving from Minnesota to Texas, hauling cement statuary and the rest heavy objects, too, at 80 MPH freeway speed, got 25 MPG consistently. Gets about that in city, too. And Triton motor can usually go 500,000 miles without any major engine work. Handles MN -40s and TX +110.
It took 1 hour of charging to save $4 on a 58 mile trip. It probably took 45-50 minutes to do the trip. You can fill a 36 gallon F150 in about 10-15 minutes tops. That F150 got 7 mpg. 7 x 36 = 252 miles with that load. The Rivian gets 290 miles range unloaded. At speed limit +3 I averaged 21 mpg round trip from Lorain, OH to Fountain Colorado and back with a trip to Royal Gorge and some other driving totalling over 3000 miles. Top speed was 78 mph in a 75 zone. That's about the only time I could remember losing significant mpg. Had we done 60-65 it would have been even higher. My truck weighs about 5400 lbs. It can tow that trailer no problem. Not sure what my max tow is, I'm guessing it's 9-10k. But i would never put more than 8k on it. We had a tonnaeu cover on a 2017 F150 crewcab 4x4 5.5 ft bed 5.0 6 spd with 18 inch wheels. I'll keep my F150 thanks. The Rivian is real cute, but past being a an trendy alternative to a Tesla, it serves no practical purpose. Any arguments are null and void. I can drive 500 miles at 17 mpg city commuting, or I can get on the highway and drive 10 hours straight, get 650+ miles and it takes 20 minutes to fill up. When the battery capacity, charging speed and charging infrastructure cacth up, EV's might be worthhile to drive more than city commuting. But today is not that day, tomorrow ain't looking good either. Just imagine if we were paying $1.80 a gallon for regular like we were in 2020. I think I paid just over $2 a gallon for Colorado 87 grade in June of 2020. That Rivian would be completely pointless. It would have cost about $14 to run the F150 and the Rivian would have cost twice as much. It's almost like the current adminstration is trying to ram expensive EV's down our throats by contributing to jacked up gas prices based off an agenda. Cool truck though. But I'll keep my F150 for the time being. Edit: Unless gas is over $4 a gallon, or you own a Tesla. There is very little savings to be had at this stage in our current era EV's, at least in terms of range/charging vs gas vehicles. Especially smaller more efficient vehicles or hybrids.
As long as towing trips are short, it shouldn't be an issue. Rivian is a nice looking truck. Plus if you are towing huge trailers all the time..just get a diesel and be done with it.
Neat test. Big thing to me is that with the F150 it probably took a minute to fill it up with ~8 gallons of fuel. But to bring the Rivian back to 85% charge it took an hour. Time is money too.
When you’re in love with something people tend to make a lot of excuses for the bad parts, electric trucks suck towing, if you’re test was twice as long the rivian would not have made it back, while the ford could have made the trip 3 times , and you don’t have to shut everything down and wait 40 minutes or disconnect the trailer, do a real test , like 500 miles and see how much love is left
The battery is evolving. No worries, your concerns will eventually be no more. But the electric motor is about 5 times more energy efficient, and it's disappointing that this test didn't address that.
The problem is you can’t really go anywhere towing a camper or trailer with an electric truck. 100 mile range is not good and I don’t see the lightning doing much better I think we have a ways to go before electric trucks can handle towing!
I don't think recreational towing will ever be an eTruck's strength (recreational == towing campers/boats/off road stuff to the great outdoors); however it seems like this would work for the construction trades; add high-amp vehicle to load (I don't know much about the Rivian) and it could potentially eliminate the need for gas powered on-site generators too.
This Ev craze is great for anyone going to the mall, or the grocery store. Not really good for anything that involves a real truck, to do real truck things.
Exactly. I want to be able to tow a trailer around 350 miles per day. With my current tow vehicle, I have to stop once for gas to do that. Maybe 10 minutes. How long would I spend charging an electric truck to go that far (assuming I could even find a charging station in middle-of-nowhere New Mexico or Arizona)?
Would have been interesting to know how long it took to recharge the Rivian back up to 85%. You said it took 2 charging sessions, why was that? Time is a cost as well. How long would it take to tow that trailer to Salt Lake City in each truck? A matter of hours in the F-150 and a matter of days in the Rivian.
If you look at the graphs he presented, 59 minutes. 47 the first time and 12 at the higher kWh rate. An hour, basically, to get an 85% charge. In no way practical.
@@robinflint4850 notice how the f150 was the truck that returned the trailer. The rivians are rich men's toys to use in urban centres. $80000 to charge every 60 miles, what a joke.
Good test, this experiment takes away all the emotion and smoke and mirrors of electric vs gas bs. thanks for sharing this experience. I’m sure it will help a lot of people make an educated purchase based on their needs. Rivian would probably be a great choice for the NYC market and gas for the longer haul areas.
When's the LAST time you've been to NYC??? Finding a gas station LET ALONE a PLACE to PARK IT is OUTRAGEOUS to say the LEAST!!! EV's for a WORK TRUCK (as that is the REAL purpose for OWNING ONE!) is probably the SINGLE STUPIDEST thing I've EVER seen!!! But you go ahead and keep smelling your own farts while singing Kum-By-Ya all day!!!
Great comparison. This is a question that I have most wanted to see an answer to. Will be very interesting to see how the F150 Lightning ⚡ compares once it comes out soon. When it comes to towing heavy loads frequently and longer distances I think diesel pickups probably are still the most efficient option. Great job 👍
I agree for now. Towing heavy or long distance often, diesel is the way to go. I tow ~12k infrequently. I use a 2000, gas, 1 ton, 4x4, crew cab, long box. At 75 mph I'm happy to get 6 mpg. My range is around 200 miles. I won't buy a diesel. I can't stand the cost, noise, smell, repairs, etc. Each person needs to weigh the pros & cons based on their individual use case.
@@rcktmn I'm sure you're right. I can't afford anything new. My goal is to electrify a 25 year old 1 ton. If I start small and add batteries as I can afford. Then I'll have my cake & eat it to. The batteries are the most expensive hurdle right now. I'm on the Dave Ramsey plan to build wealth. If I can't pay cash. I'm not buying it.
I'm looking forward to The F150 Lightning test using the same setup!! The RT1 definitely gave me good insight as to expectations, my use case is a 7x14 V-nose with cargo TTL weight ~4000, I hope to eek out better results on a 212 miles round trip, mid trip charging is definitely in my plan. My 2012 Powerstroke 6.7 averages 13 mpg. definitely better than the powerboost, now I'm not so interested in using that as an alternate should my deal with the Lightning fall through, I think I will stay with a new Powerstroke
Wow...SUPER proud of my '99 Ram 2500 5.9L RWD gasser for getting better fuel economy while towing than a new truck! It gets about 8.5mpg. Unloaded on the highway I can get as "good" as 16mpg. It averages about 14mpg most of the time.
What if the charging with the trailer connected fiasco happened in a cold downpour? Or you have a long enough trip on a rainy ol' day that you get soaked every time you have to recharge? In most of the videos I've seen the charging stations have no protective overhead awning whereas you would be hard pressed to find a gas pump that wasn't covered...
Change takes time. There will eventually be gas station style convenience store/charge stations, charge stations scattered everywhere like ATM machines. You guys act like you have no clue how the world works.
@@chadcoady9025 I'm talking about right now. They have a loooong way to go. Why not build some protection from the elements as the charging stations are constructed?
@@charlesjones2563 the first charging stations take put out for the early adopters allowed then free unlimited charging, so they made them as cheap as possible. Stepping outside to plug them in doesn’t take long and it’ll probably be up to the facility to put them under a canopy. I don’t think anyone wants to spend too much money yet, especially since the federal government through tax payers, is investing billions into charging stations. The plan in some areas is to have charging stations on the side of streets in configurations like parking meters. Parking meters are out in the elements because there are so many of them. They’ll be a mix of plane bars bones charging stations and charging stations at rest stops with restraints that’ll be covered. The next 5-10 years, they’ll be popping up everywhere.
To be honest they made a meal of charging with a trailer attached. Many ICE car drivers with trailers detach their trailer at places where there just isn't practical amounts of room. They could have detached the trailer and parked it separately making it easier for everyone. They were just being lazy. The joke is that some people are predictably posting here about how long it takes to charge the Rivian. But, if you're stopping for an hour or more to charge the Rivian then what's point of saving a few minutes by not un-hitching the trailer? It's straight up bullshit! Un-hitch the trailer, charge as normal, re-hitch and fuck off. Is that too hard? Does it make your soft hands bleed to do some manual labour? 🤣
@@chadcoady9025 it's not happening buddy. The world isn't buying these fat RC cars because the whole dozen of you nuts keep telling everyone to get them
You used the highest priced fuel in the F150 LOL, and didn't have an extra person in the Rivian while performing the tow test. I'd like to see you do the IKE gauntlet with these two vehicles with the same load. Range under tow was the reason we cancelled our R1S order. I do like how the Rivian appears to tow smoothly compared to the F150. Mirror extensions are always a good thing we use them on our Expedition (same engine as in the F150 tested in this video). We also came to the same conclusion as shown in this video regarding lack of pass through charge stations, I'm wondering how long it'll take for the EV infrastructure companies to correct this shortcoming. Enjoyed the video, we tow our camper many many times each year with our Expedition, not giving it up for an R1S type vehicle just yet, however we do have a Suburban Duramax diesel on order. We enjoy our MACH-E for around town as well...love bypassing the pump. Thanks again for the video.
If you're towing your bass boat 25 miles to the lake and back the EV seems like the winner. However if your towing across the country or state the Gas power is the winner, especially if you factor in charging (wait) time.
You should do a test on the rivian testing the range loss from having devices charging on the outputs, have laptops charging on the 120v sockets, phones/ipads charging on the USB-C and cigarette lighter 9v outputs, then compare it without, leave it overnight charging a ton of devices from 70% (car battery) and then leave it overnight for another night as a control, im interested to see how much battery would be lost if I was out camping and using the car to charge my devices overnight. Love the videos and the rivian tests im general, thats my future car 100%
Yes so you saved three dollars but what you’re not saying is you spent over an hour charging when in a gas vehicle are you in a filled up in five minutes and you wouldn’t of had to unhook it hook it back up just to save that $.20 a minute after a certain time.
I’m very curious to know what the relative impact of weight versus aerodynamics is on range. Based on my experience towing a larger frontal area aluminum horse trailer (empty) versus a utility trailer with an ATV on it, I think aero is a huge factor. Everyone talks about weight but at highway speeds I’m suspicious that aero may be the bigger factor. Cool test!
Ever tow an open snowmobile trailer with 2 sleds side by side? It may as well be a huge wind sock. Aerodynamic drag is the primary factor in fuel/energy consumption not weight.
Factoring in aero and everything else they missed in a general gas/EV comparison, this was really only a rough look at that specific Ford model vs that specific Rivian model. More than that though, this video was just enough content to generate monetized views and sponsorship dollars for the channel.
In europe, at this moment its almost 10x more expensive to drive with fossil motor. Almost every fuel costs here 2,3-2,4 eur/liter, electricity costs 10-15 cents per kWh
I knew that your fuel rates were about double the US rates, but I'm somewhat surprised to see that your electric rates are approximately equal to US rates. That makes an EV purchase a "no brainer" for Europeans.
With the Realization of only getting ~100 miles while towing, I think there is a fair chance a good amount of charging on a vehicle that tows will be done outside the home greatly reducing the cost savings from that aspect. Pure speculation on that though, but I cant say buying an EV truck would be justified only based on being cheaper while towing IF charging only at home.
Great comparison and very well done. Your test could have gone a bit further with adding data for the time to recharge the electric truck compared to the time to fill the gas truck.
They probably realized that when they saw the mileage calculation and decided to forego the additional 200 or so pounds to increase their chances of not dying on the highway.
Electric torque power delivery makes the addition of ONE passenger completely irrelevant. Did you not see the bit where they said they couldn't feel the towed weight AT ALL in the Rivian. But you think they'd feel ONE PERSON?
@@trevorberridge6079 the test was not about towing capacity, it was about mileage and the cost to tow the same weight. Yes electric motors have more torque but torque doesn’t equate to mileage efficiency. The addition of any weight TO ANY VEHICLE will effect it’s mileage efficiency.
Where you fall short on your thinking is your time is worth Nothing. If you throw out the 12min charge for the gas up for the 150 you still have wasted 47mins charging.
What was the outside temp? It seems the test was done in a favorable temp for the EV. If it was done in 100-110 degrees in summer heat, the EV would have been far less effective and may have even suffered from the thermal overload. I could'nt imagine driving an hour and stopping for an hour plus to charge. Then people say, "Oh well, it's unloaded that you really see the benefits." Nope. I drive over 300 miles every weekend to go home, and I wouldn't even make it home before I would have to charge this thing again. Then drive back to work sunday evening and spend an extra hour somewhere charging it again.
If you tow often, it only makes sense to get a diesel truck with an extra large fuel tank. If you hardly ever tow, get an EV and then rent a diesel truck for that one day a year you need to tow. EVs are great for daily driving to and from work empty, but not there yet for towing.
Who drives 120kmph/70mph while towing in the eu its illegal to drive over 100kmph/60mph while towing. Imagine having to emergency brake with 11000 pounds at 70 mph.
To get "real" towing range on an EV, we're going to need much, much bigger batteries. The trailer you used is great for this type of test, but that's a "baby" compared to really towing with a HD pickup truck. I regularly tow around a 20K 5th wheel trailer; which of course, is way beyond the spec of anything out there today. My truck holds 40 gallons of fuel and I get around 250-300 miles between tanks (7-8MPG). To replicate that performance in an EV, the numbers go shockingly plaid very quickly. A trailer that big/heavy, figure 2KW/mile as a reasonable estimate. Getting to 300 miles would take a 600KW battery pack, probably actually a little bit more because you can't run it totally flat after each refueling. Even if we figure a way to stuff that much battery into the vehicle, the next problem, how on earth do you deliver 500KW in anything like a reasonable time frame? And then doing that at scale, fueling up 10 trucks at a time for example, the amount of energy delivery needed is ridiculous. What we need for towing is a diesel/electric hybrid pickup truck. A moderate sized battery (100KW), coupled to moderate sized diesel engine (3L) that does nothing but spin a generator to provide power to the wheels. Short trips/not towing, you can run pure EV. Longer trips, the diesel kicks on. But you don't need a monster 6.7L diesel, you can tune the 3L for max efficiency because it'll only ever run one RPM, and much of the time, you won't need the engine at all. I'd buy that truck tomorrow if it were offered. Huge EV torque, long range, fuel efficient, refuel at any truck stop (which are all configured to allow for long trailers at the pump). If we want to clean up this segment of the auto market, this is the type of vehicle we have to build. Or we can just keep waiting and doing tests for the next 30 years until the technology is finally at a point where you can do it with a pure EV.
You're describing a locomotive. Age old tech that works very well. I don't understand this 100% electric BS. It's very disturbing how everyone is running blindly at these dumb things.
@@kevinrcoffman You've got it Kevin, a locomotive is exactly the model for what I'm describing. Electric motors as a way to propel a vehicle are just, in nearly every respect, better than a directly coupled transmission. And they also can be easily powered by multiple sources (batteries/regen braking/generator/etc). So, let's take the tech we have today, good motors, decent batteries and good diesel engines; couple them together, and get a vehicle that has most of the EV advantages without the two huge EV downsides (range and refueling time). If I could get a diesel/electric hybrid F450, I'd buy one tomorrow. If it had a 50-100KW pack in it, I'd save a lot of fuel not using the diesel for most of my trips around town. And when I'm towing or going further, the 3L diesel (vs the monster 6.7 that's in my truck today) could kick on and keep the batteries topped up. No noisy exhaust brake turning energy into sound, charge those batteries up when we're coming down the mountain with 20K lbs behind us.
First off, superb test from every standpoint! Thank you for staying mostly unbiased in your test and conclusions. I have been pining for a proper EV vs. ICE comparison test in real world conditions and you guys have delivered. I won't say that I am surprised by your conclusions however, EV towing tech is not yet practical as range is obviously a huge constraint. But EV for daily commuting is a no-brainer. It proposes to solve nearly all problems associated with local air quality, total energy use (although start/stop is helping ICE efficiency) and noise. Some concerns I do have are EV infrastructure, i.e. availability of charge stations and loading on local power grids, although both are easily solved over time but at additional costs. I am also concerned with the proliferation of EV pushing the train of energy back to traditional coal and methane power plants. Every EV consumer must be prepared to accept the fact that their vehicle is essentially coal powered and carries that connotation with it. One last concern is the kind of waste generated over the life of EV. I have to do more research on the feasibility of battery bank recycling. The rest of the vehicle will recycle just fine through the already existing recycle path. At this point I'm not sure what happens to one ton of lithium ion batteries at the end of their usable life. This will be huge problem in a very short time if not addressed accordingly. Maybe you can address this in a future episode? Thanks again for a great video and although my comments may seem anti-EV, I am a big fan of the technology and do absolutely believe in their utilization especially in regions where they will be most effective.
@@yomomma1459 the math wasn't done properly either, charge time was approximately 50 min. He conveniently didn't add the .20 mark up, about 3.00 in total making it higher then gas
This is a good experiment. The edge goes to the ev if you’re moving your house to somewhere local or within 60 miles. If anything more than 60 miles, convenience and effectiveness goes to the ice motors. I think refueling would be the biggest advantage given the state of ccs charging uptimes.
We definitely need more videos that explain towing range loss in gas trucks. I have a helpful link bookmarked, but a Google search almost never shows it and overwhelmingly returns hits for the EV side of the issue only.
That's because it effects range but not as drastically on the gas truck, and the Gas truck starts off with a much longer range. There's also the fact that gassing up takes 5 minutes and there are stations at almost every exit, and charging up an EV Truck takes 45 minutes to an hour, and the stations are every 100 miles.
@@thomasklein4265 mostly true (though I wouldn't say it can't be as drastic: it can go up to 40% in gas vehicles too depending on the weight of the tow), but whenever the discussion comes up, the critics are never sophisticated enough to mention either fact. They almost always treat it as an exclusive issue to EVs.
@@Necrotron I think Towing is the one application that Gas / Diesel still dominates, but that should change as 2nd and 3rd generation EV trucks come out. Were only seeing the first generation of EV trucks now. Eventually denser energy packs and more battery capacity , that are quicker to charge will change that equation.
One thing missing from your cost analysis is that by disconnecting the Rivian mid-charge and having a 12 minute charge and 47 minute charge rather than a 59 minute charge, you only paid that $.20/min fee on 12 minutes rather than 24. Add8ng another $2.40 to your EV charge cost puts this comparison at even more of a dead heat.
What a great eye opening real world test. Thanks. Clearly EV can't tow effectively yet. By the looks of the battery horizon it will be several years before EV's have capacity for a good work truck. those of us who tow, haul lots of tools or travel 2-400 miles on a routine basis .. like out here in the west need to use our trucks without delays like charging. It would be like changing oil on your truck twice a day. I love the idea of an EV but can't imagine charging every 150 or 200 miles.
What about the time it took to charge? 1 hour as your graphs show at minimum wage is $15 which you could have been spending doing something more productive like driving perhaps.
It would take about 10-15 minutes to refill at a gas station. It would take a minute to plug in and charge then you can sit comfortably in your car and do paperwork, take a nap, or go get something to eat. I drive for work and I personally enjoy charging because I use that as “me time.” While it’s no fun going to the gas station and watching my money go down the drain.
@@masterrpgs I get that. And I am all for EVs but wanted to make sure it is a fair comparison, that's all. I think in the future, with certain changes to gas vs electricity prices and improvements in charging capabilities the pros of EVs will be a lot better and impossible to ignore. Nowadays, they're equal.
@@masterrpgs It does not take 10-15 minutes to fill up at a gas station, it takes like 2-3 minutes. Even when I go to Costco and the lines are jammed pack I am still out in less than 15 minutes. What are you smoking?
He's smoking the same stuff the other idiots are when justifying charging an EV. Go eat or shop while you charge? Do you count that toward the charging cost? Driving out of your way to a charge station? What happens when the spaces are full? The chargers are broken? And now you need to go to the next charge station? Or there is a space but because other people are also charging the charge rate is so slow it takes 2 hours to charge to 80% instead of 1 hour? EVs make the most sense when you can do nearly all of your charging at home, never tow and rarely take road trips.
There’s no way he drives for work and is ok with a long wait to charge. I actually do drive for work and make 600-800 mile trips in 1 day with only one 5 minute stop for fuel. The last thing anyone wants on the way home is waiting even 30 minutes longer to get home. Ev’s at this point are for in town and not towing anything
EVs are great at towing except for range. Towing absolutely abolishes range in an EV. If I needed to tow with an EV, which I don't, I would insist on no less than 600 miles of range with an incredible charging curve as well. Otherwise just for a non-towing EV, 320 miles is plenty for me.
Totally agree with you.!! towing or adding shit like extra bodies, gear, bike rack or ski rack on the roof..just trashes the distance. Great numbers and honestly if we weren't in this ridiculous gas hike, the ICE would have won hands down and by a large margin!!
This made me love my F350 7.3 even more. I don't have anything against EVs (hell, I'd absolutely love to have a Plaid). But my old truck can tow just about anything a lot further than 57 miles. Granted the Rivian wouldn't even be able tell I was trying in a race. I'd probably loose sight of the EVs taillights in a few seconds.
Thanks, but that was a lot of listening to find out the costs are nearly the same, factor in the time value of money waiting for charging makes the EV hardly worth it for the cost.
Can we discuss how long the EV truck sat charging before and after towing only 57 miles.
If I’m making a typical 300 mile round trip pulling my car, how long will I be off the road charging to save 4 dollars?
Ugggh!! All that dirty extra coal burning at the powerplants for these Not-So-Green ev's.
When you're outa juice in the wilderness, you're out of friggin' juice!! EV crowd will have to decide which member of their party they'll have to cannibalize to survive. No thanks!! 😆😂🤣
Then BEV isnt there for you right now.
@@MAGGOT_VOMIT The grid is moving more towards renewables, and will continue to move in that direction, so even if you live in a state that relies 100% on coal (none do, but for argument sake), eventually, the electric car will be greener and cheaper to "fuel". Right now, it's still greener AND cheaper in all but 3 states to run an EV (Wyoming, West Virginia, and Kentucky). I'm not a super-fan of EV's as i'm a pilot and rely on fossil fuels, plus I own 2 V-8 vehicles, one is even supercharged.
So unless you live in Wyoming, West Virginia, and Kentucky, it's greener/cleaner to charge your EV than to run a fossil fuel car.
@ awesome-Austin if you only use public fast chargers you won’t save any money over gas, although you do not contribute as much to climate change. Where you save money is if you charge at home. I went from spending $170 to $35 going from my gas car to electric. I also have not done any oil changes in the last five years. I bought a new set of tires at 60,000 miles and I paid for an alignment and that is the only money I have spent. When I had my diesel VW, the 30,000 mile maintenance was $900, so I have definitely saved money with the EV.
@ awesome-Austin Just as Expensive, try WAY MORE expensive than gas powered versions.
If anyone is interested I ran the numbers for New Zealand.
F150 - $77.50 based on ¢261.6/L
Rivian (DC) - $46.8 based on $0.60/kWh (Chargenet HPC)
Rivian (DC) - $42.90 based on $0.25/kWh + $0.25/min (Chargenet 50kW)
Rivian (Home AC) - $15.60 based on $0.20/kWh night rate charging
Add to that, the F150 with proper maintenance would last over 2 decades. While the R1T in less than a decade has a battery pack already in route to be replaced, with a cost that most likely totaled the truck.
@@RogerM88 B I A S D E T E C T E D
@@jonnathan780 awwwww do inconvenient problems get you upset?
Lets talk about how the battery degrades after time so your range shrinks over the life of the battery.
what about time differences in fill up to charge up? Time is money and money is time.
@@RogerM88 this is something I was interested in and compared to my 2001 ram 2500 with the Cummins. $28000 new. Put 100 k miles on it before I sold it. Kept receipts for most major repairs. Excluding costs which would most likely be needed in the rivian as well, I spent over 15,000 in repairs . Rivian ( per the chief engineer) has a battery life of about 400 thousand miles. Current cost of batteries is between $100 and $140 per kWh. So replacement cost is between 18000 and 25000 for the 180 kWh battery I’m looking to purchase. Battery costs decreasing quickly, so this figure will likely be less in the future. These facts, plus no oil changes or dual fuel pumps to replace (which I had to do on my diesel- twice for the transfer pump) made me keep the rivian in the running for my next truck. Electrics aren’t a panacea, but there is a lower cost to maintain which must be considered when calculating total cost of ownership. Your point is well-taken, battery failures could pump the cost up, but the rivian battery is warrantied for 8 years/175,000 miles which is more miles than I will ever put on a truck. Others put LOTS more miles on their vehicles and current electrics probably aren’t for them until the battery and charging tech improves. But for my use case, electrics will be much cheaper for me.
A nice feature with the F150: the blind spot monitors WILL actually work with a trailer if you program in the trailer into the towing menu. The truck will take into account the length of the trailer and give you blind spot notifications for the new total length of the vehicle and trailer!
Great option, too bad it wasn't used. Surprised it wasn't found on the test.
I quite like that feature on my Expedition. VERY handy with a 21ft boat. :)
It is nice to have blind spot monitoring with a trailer. I love how my Ram does it automatically with no programming. Just hook up the trailer and it sets length accurately itself.
Instead of hoping you programed the truck to pull your trailer correctly and hoping the truck knows how to back your trailer in every possible situation you might encounter, you could, oh, I don't know, learn how to pull/back your trailer yourself. Also, are you really ready to trust your lives to a computer in an emergency situation? As someone who has driven every truck and pulled every trailer legal on the highway over the last 40 years, I can say with 100% confidence that learning how to pull a trailer safely is the only way to go. Never will I ever trust a computer.
@@s.hooper4683 I agree with you - they’re great driving aids, but I would never rely solely on those types of notifications exclusively. Blind spot monitors don’t replace a proper shoulder check, but we all make mistakes, and if that driving aid can help me avoid a collision as a result of something I missed, then I’m all for it!
Great video for me. I drive a 2015 Toyota Tundra and regularly pull 5-6000 lbs of enclosed 7x16’ trailer 3-5 days per week. I ordered a Rivian truck last year. Might get it next year, at their current build rate. I drive 50-100 miles each day for work as a contractor in the Atlanta market. I plan on charging at home. Looks like the Rivian might be a good choice for back to hub driving , like I do. A lot of guys complaining here are pulling trailers longer distances daily. I agree this won’t work for them. But it will work for local guys like me. I will charge at home each night, and limit my outside source charging. This video definitely has me thinking of upgrading my battery to the larger unit. I have been fortunate to lock in the early pricing, and benefited from the 175 shares of ipo offer. The proceeds from the ipo sale will pay for my upgraded battery.
That's great! Any updates on your truck?
So what this means is if you are a carpenter and you charge at home rates each night, the work trailer is very affordable in this scenario. If you are carrying goods cross country, there is almost no way to do it as chargers in some parts of the country are more than 100 miles apart. With 50 minutes of charging for 100 miles travelled, I am guessing Kyle wont be doing a cannonball run in an EV truck pulling a Tesla in a trailer.
Let's just casually forget this thing is double the cost of the gas truck the carpenter would be using. Affordable. LOL
@@venom5809 I did the math on monthly payment vs savings in fuel and it came up to a slight win for the Lightning (vs my 2020 F150 XLT 3.5L Ecoboost). Include less mechanical "wear and tear" maintenance and it's even better. It won't work for everyone but for someone like me who tows AT MOST 100mi/day for my job, this is a win in my books. I'm not a EV fan boy by any means, but whatever makes more sense for the business is going to get my business.
better yet, you charge off the power at the job site.
"some parts of the country". Oh, you know, just about every part outside of New England and California. Just a small section.
search for "Bjorn towing" if u want to check out similar videos
Wow, great video showing the massive benefits of the combustion engine vehicles over the EV's.
My 2001 F350 7.3 power stroke diesel gets 18MPGs pulling my loaded car hauler 8000lb. That vastly out performs the EV truck you tested as well as the Ford hybrid.
I can honestly say this comparison has just confirmed my gut feeling that I will not be looking to get in to a EV or hybrid in the foreseeable future, and keep running my extremely reliable super duty as long as I can. Even with fuel being 4.75/ gallon for my truck it gets more than double the range for the same distance you traveled and it only takes a couple minutes to fill back up. On a road trip, having to wait for the EV to charge up seems extremely detrimental to the time line of your trip. Seems ok for short local driving but going on road trips over a couple hundred miles seems like a huge inconvenience in a EV. Plus it gets even cheaper for me if I make a batch of bio diesel from old used oil and gas that I can get for free.
Thats been my thought on EV tech thus far. I think EV's are great for a to and from work vehicle or local shopping etc but as a work vehicle there just not there yet. At my old job we looked into switching some of the fleet of work vehicles over, but even if you saved some money short term in the long term the cost of replacing a battery just torpedoed any savings.
The good news with using petroleum is that it's producing carbon dioxide which is plant food which helps to green our Earth. Right now the carbon dioxide level of the Earth is fairly low compared to the average which is 2600 ppm. There would be a super abundance of food if we could get the carbon dioxide levels even up to 1500 ppm.
Completely agree on the highway front. In town this is a good work truck for trades - can tow weights very for short distances. The other real-world test would be 250kgs (~500 lbs) in the bed. Working suburban or rural a diesel hybrid looks like a good option if you have home charging and want range. As for the US gallon/European audience comment... there are more F-150's per capita in Canada and a good F-150 market in Mexico (see Lobo) and those countries are metric so get those litres in there.
@@DerekTinney There may be an issue using a truck like this for trades even in a local setting. I know that when I have had work done on my house the contractors normally ask to use the electricity to run their tools. That is no big deal and not even really noticeable on my electric bill. But imagine 2 or 3 guys coming to your home to do work and plugging their trucks in while they work during the day. You don't think too much of it until you get the bill at the end of the month.
@@mujaku How dare you use science. 😁
Looks like you chose the towing distance to favor the EV. I rarely tow that short of a distance. You need to do a 400 mile round trip tow and check it again.
In Europe we barrely tow at all.. if or when we really need to tow something big we go to companies to hire & rent a semi-hauler..
Rivian would be so perfect for Europe !
In Europe we barrely tow at all not evem mentioning the long distances.. if or when we really need to tow something big we go to companies to hire & rent a semi-hauler..
Rivian would be so perfect for people in Europe ! ;0)
With 3000-4000 lbs in the trailer........ya right! What a joke.
100% EV will not do that in 24 hours
@@alperez4166 _
What do you do for that hour while recharging? Sit drink coffee for the trip, have two pee breaks per person per fill up, and you haven't even left the station yet! Can you imagine the wait if three people are at the charging station? A couple. 2.7 kids, and 1 dog? One hour for waiting, and one hour for waiting for the other person to be done, 12 parking spots. Remember, that's if you dont fill it totally up!! Worrying about getting 57 miles one a trip. Will your job give you THAT MUCH time off for vacation? Could you fill up where you turned around, if things went bad? Awesome looking truck to say the least though. Thanks for the great info. Everyone have a great day!!
The smoothness you experienced with the Rivien is due to the truck weighing more than the trailer. The F150 is almost 3,000 lbs lighter. The closer the tow vehicle's weight is to the tired vehicle, the more control afforded to the towing vehicle.
Tongue weight plays a big role too. Generic trailers can't be designed to optimize tongue weight because every situation is different. Get the tongue weight right and it will tow better. Get it way wrong and you may end up in the ditch.
The Rivian also has independent motors for each wheel which allows it to precisely control the power delivery, stability and grip. No combustion engined vehicle can do that. The Rivian also has the "tank turn" ability which allows it to spin the left and right side wheels in opposite directions and rotate the truck on the spot like a tank. Again something that's not even possible in a combustion engined vehicle. There's a lot more than just the weight making the Rivian stable.
@@trevorberridge6079 It's not possible? Really? You can't put electric motors on ICE vehicle? I guess all people who put winches on their didn't get the memo. You really should think things thru a little better before you type them in for all to read. And why in Hell would I want to rotate my truck on a spot like a tank? But tank is a good analogy for a Rivian since it weighs 7,000 pounds.
@@oneordinarycitizen 🤣Someone doesn't understand that putting EV motors on an ICE vehicle stops it being an ICE vehicle. It's called an EV Conversion. What a desperately idiotic comeback. Leave thinking to people with brains. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@trevorberridge6079 Yes, a bunch of useless 'features'.
I'm sure the time involved in towing with a vehicle is an important variable. I think an estimate of time involved in recharging/refueling could be an item for consideration. Time is money!
Especially if you're towing a hot rod to a car show..... Ten minute fuel stops is not worth the 4 dollar savings..
Time is money, and also time lost is gone forever, no chance of getting it back, ever
As a plumber/ gas engineer, I cannot afford to be waiting around for my van to " recharge" plus here in the UK, EV vans are restricted on the weight they can tow because of the battery weight... I drive a 2L turbo diesel ( 65 reg Ford Transit)
WOW, I'm apparently NOT the only one when it comes to "time is money" concerns!!! I just saw your comment as soon as I posted my own. GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE!!! 🤜🤛
ah, yes.. can't post an electric vehicle review without the anti-EV trolls coming to take a dump on it.
I own a Model Y. I love the car. Great road tripper too. But, EV’s are not good at towing. No way, no how. I don’t have range anxiety. My bladder and arms start to cramp before my car hits it’s (realistic) 280 mile range. But if I only had 100 miles of range while towing a trailer, I’d have SERIOUS range anxiety. Those third party chargers suck too.
Yeah and he got really lucky with the charging location, not to mention a lot of those pull in spots are for compact cars. Love my EV daily but it will be a while before I replace my work truck with a 100% EV. One of those plug in hybrids where I can do 90% of my daily chores on electric then use the ICE range extender for towing road trips (track day car hauling) would be the best of both worlds, at least until the battery tech catches up. There will be more pull through spaces as fueling stations upgrade but that is way in the future.
@@thebeacon2 I have a Cybertruck on preorder but I've never drove or charged a Tesla. No one has them in Michigan! No Tesla sales or service centers allowed in this state. How much is the Kwh cost for Supercharging? That 35 cents for EA seems high compared to a residential rate of less than 12 cents in most places. Although I guess a Tesla not towing is getting 5x the efficiency of that Rivian while towing, so a much lower cost regardless!
@@Nphen Grand Rapids and Clarkston are two cities I know do repairs.
A lot more common down here, not so much up North yet.
what,on earth, convinced you to buy an ev. did you even look into how there manufactured, costs, longevity, ease of maintenance, ?, anything,?, other than, oh, its clean & green. which they are far from..for longevity,ease all of the above, above all cost. your better off with a decent 80,90,s v8. &, get lpg, fitted, raise the compression, cheap, & 1/3 more power. i have an 82 bronco, on lpg only, fitted 302c heads to the 351c, compression of 12.1. no other mods. goes like a cut cat & cheap. 14 yrs now, never touched it. see how your model y uk, is in 14 yrs. you,ll be on your 5th by then.. ignorance is bliss, watch vids on lithium & cobolt mining,, then ring save the children fund.. happy travels, while you begin to think.. theres a vid on henry ford, cars in general. there was on electric car back in 1920,s. ish, 80 mile range. cost nothing to charge. plus there were steam, even in ww2, your ev, is nothing new, just 300 times the price..
Yeah, I'm all for progress, but we aren't there yet as fast as using EV'S for trucking and hauling long distance. I don't know why people don't just let progress take over and they try to force everyone to start using the EV'S by a certain date. Honestly, of it makes more sense economically to use EV'S they will take over and nobody will worry about it or fight it. But ringing the fuel prices to try to squeeze out fossil fuel is wrong.
I tow a travel trailer with a 5.7 V8. I also have two Honda CR-Z hybrids. I bought the hybrids because I didn’t want to be limited by range (like same year Nissan Leafs that were limited to 35 miles). This video has convinced me that I should consider a hybrid for my next towing vehicle.
The F150 would be my choice for towing across the country, but I’d rather have the Rivian for everything else.
One thing to consider, the Rivian's curb weight looks to be a bit "heavier" than the current data for the lightning, so if all other things are equal, wouldn't the rivian be more "planted" while towing? Although I'd prefer the 150's wider body and tow mirrors.
agreed, just rent a pickup if you need to tow all day. Though I bet if I had a Rivian I could find a friend or two willing to trade trucks for a few days. Obviously anyone in the tow all day everyday is looking more into a diesel for that application.
I think longer range phev's might be the future for towing with a pickup
That trip would take forever. Do the math of how many times to would have to stop to recharge.
@@04dram04 did you even read my comment?
@@brandenflasch lol amazing how he commented without reading the original comment
Splitting the charging into 2 separate charges saved you over $3.00. The 15min on the first charge needs to be added to the second charge, adding $0.20/min for time. Then both vehicles cost almost the same. You will also find the unloaded mileage of the Ford is also almost 3x better. What were the prices of the vehicles as tested? You could have used a $20000 cheaper Ford hybrid with the same towing capacity.
Or added airbags to the rear of the f150 and provide a better ride. $4500. Great point.
Since you wished to nitpick in an effort to find the worst case for EV, then we use the worst case for the ICE. The guy didn't need to go to a fueling station to charge his EV. He paid $7.80 to get to the point and he never has to go to the gas station. You then have to factor in the fact you had to drive that ICE there, and it lowers your efficiency. You are also assuming that you needed to actually charge on a charger and that you were not charging somewhere where you actually gained electricity as part of the charge for staying there, which could possibly mean that the charging to get to a destination is actually $0.
@@ronaldking1054 you ever tow far distance? How many charge stations are out there and how long does it take. Factory in the king charge times and if someone is taking the charger how much longer might your trips end up being? Time is also money. They need many more years of developing and expanding to make these vehicles worth it. Until then these are just cool gadgets and new tech for nerds to drool over. They are neat but just a toy at this point and a fad. Everyone wants to pretend they are saving the world by having one. What’s happens if you run out of charge too? Gas truck someone can driver you gas. I guess someone could deliver a generator too.
@@ronaldking1054 I watched a special show on TV where they took a new Ford F-150 and a electric truck and tooled each truck up to the same trailer that had the same load in it and drove both trucks the same 200 mile round trip then filled both up with fuel or electricity. After all the figures were in what it costs to drive both trucks was hardly any difference in cost between the two vehicles. Unfortunately bottom line is it’s not going to make any difference what you drive or what type of fuel you use cause long as others have control over what they can charge the public as a whole that goes unregulated in any way. Not to mention taxes added for roads, etc. that keeps getting added to the cost! We’re all going to be paying thru the nose or a arm and a leg or your first born, whatever the cost is to get you to where you want to go? Our day of getting reasonable fuel prices went away back in the 70’s and with a government that doesn’t really care what we have to pay for fuel we’re pretty much screwed having to pay a fortune whatever we drive?
@@ghostridergale Towing takes half the range so which electric truck did it as there are none with 400 range on their battery packs? It sounds like you described this video, but ignored that he also explained the case for home charging is less than $10.
You and TFL both had a 50 to 60 % reduction efficiency while towing with the R1T, but that is expected. The same reduction in efficiency exist in the IC trucks. MPG of my Suburban is 19 mpg unloaded and it is about 9 to 10 mpg towing a 7700 lbs boat with trailer. As you stated the EV advantage depends on energy price; as long as Gas is over $4.00/gal the EV is favored. The next hurdle that EVs have to overcome is the poor charging infrastructure. Currently EVs are commuting champions and IC vehicles are the road trip champions. Thanks for a great program.
plus I think if they would have access to tesla superchargers they wouldn't be running out of chargers
It’s also possible to produce your own electricity, to produce your own fuel is a bigger hassle…
With the exception of Tesla, I believe you are correct. Tesla's charging network is getting pretty good. Tesla's V3 charging stations reduce 20-80% charge times to like 15-20 minutes. By the time you pee and buy snacks, you're back on the road for another 200-250 miles. All the other 3rd party charging companies have a lot of work to do to catch up.
@@N8TheSnake good point. And Electrify America’s rates seem incredibly high. Supercharging for me is averaging 16 cents/kWh over the last month, and 24 cents/kWh is the highest I have ever seen. I can only hope that competition will drive down some if the more overprice network pricing.
"Currently EVs are commuting champions and IC vehicles are the road trip champions." Mostly true - I would argue when not towing, Tesla's or this Rivian (with sufficient charging along the way) are in fact great road trip vehicles. Most people should be stopping for 20 minutes or so every few hours. If I was going really long distances, perhaps that would get old but for most road trips EVs with automatic lane keeping + adaptive cruise control are really nice.
Great video, I am an EV fan, but still drive a naturally asperated V8 truck.
Yes I tow getting better mileage than your test truck. I was surprised to see the mileage on the eco boost.
Might be nice to do that pull with a diesel and throw those numbers in.
This comparison basically showed using regulator gas (at the current price) the cost is ~the same as the EV. and you have 4x plus the range on gas.
My added note is electricity costs will rise as they become affected by the higher fuel costs, it just takes a bit longer.
So in the near future those numbers may move in favor of gas. Also as we add EVs to the grid I bet the gov. adds taxes and restrictions to your power bill.
That said I have 24K of solar off grid so I would actually benefit from an EV, just not a truck...
My take away is I'm not buying an eco boost over my V8:)
If I understand your comment, you're stating that the cost you have already paid is not worth using over $27 cost you have not paid and comes from your income for a month or wealth. You cannot even get the money for having too much generation of electricity because you just said it is off the grid. You have also eliminated any increases in price of electricity in your set up so that doesn't even make sense.
I wish these tests assigned an hourly labor rate so you could say it took 10 minutes to fuel the ICE vehicle and 2 hours to charge the EV. This would bring the true cost in line as in everything time is money.
Laughable attempt to increase the cost for EVs. Two hours costs? How much do you charge for your time? Let's be sensible. The longer the distance you drive in an EV the more money you save over using an ICE vehicle. For every 100 miles you drive in an ICE vehicle you'd have to drive at least 300 miles in an EV to rack up the same fuel costs, often a lot further. Minimum wage in America is $7.25 per hour. That means two hours charging would cost you $14.50 in labour if people were suddenly being charged labour costs for waiting for their car to fill up. The average EV costs $8.50 for every 100 miles of driving. The average ICE vehicle costs $29.44 per 100 miles. So you save $20.94 for every 100 miles you drive if you use an EV. You only have to drive 500 miles and that's $104.70 going back in your pocket. If you used my yearly distance as a gauge that would mean at least $2,931.60 saved annually over using an ICE vehicle on fuel alone. And that's not counting the "fuel" you create with regenerative braking as you drive which is ABSOLUTELY FREE. If you want to add random non-existent costs to try and make the EV more expensive then I'll counter you with ENDLESS FACTS AND MATHS.🤯
A laughable attempt by you to make the EV truck look practical for hauling anything any real distance. You can argue all the dollars and cents costs all you want but it doesn't change that fact. And at the end of it's service life all you have is an expensive boat anchor that will only cost more to recycle.
@@trevorberridge6079 Laughable attempt to justify an EV!!! 1) if you're making minimum wage, you cannot afford an EV. 2) do the calculation at $50/hour, like the average person makes. Two hours of charging costs closer to $100 than $15. Now do the math... Okay, now let's tow my RZR to my daughter's house - 600+ miles one way, or 9.5 hours. Oh, forgot, the EV has a range of 100 miles before you have to stop for 2 hours to charge it. Oh, and it's rural OR, so long stretches with no gas stations, and certainly no charging stations! But if there were charging stations every 100 miles, it would turn my 9.5 hour trip into a 21+ hour NIGHTMARE! Then, there's the trip home... Seriously, EVs are not ready for prime time, no more than solar is. EVs are bad for the environment (lithium mines, etc.) bad for the roads (much heavier than gas vehicles) and bad for the landfills (batteries have to go somewhere). Just say "NO" to EVs. They're useless feel-good vehicles for uninformed hippies.
@@trevorberridge6079 It depends what is the value of your time and is it wasted time. If you have no way to use that time and it is during your workday, it is easily very expensive.
Btw Outofspec missed a large bit of info Wellington-Cheyenne is a 1311ft vertical elevation change. Not just a small% of elevation change over distance. ...Missed one big equation xtime vs xmoney$(time ismoneyl and goung 500 miles is a 2 day affair with the Rivian. Ford is 500 miles ahead the following day.
I love how they had the leave the electric truck charging and use the gas truck to return the trailer. And they are pushing the EV.
Best reply ever
Not counting all the down time while charging too…
I thought we where out of grid 5-10 years!Here in Ca we have outages because of all the AC units running during summer
@@jamesegbert3564 Yup the grid can't handle true EV adoption, and this 7k trailer in the example is entry level trailer in terms of weight.
EV have a long way to go. ... honestly the battery tech, and ability to charge have a long way to go Electric motor have been moving freight via trains for decades.
@@davez2989 exactly. for pure power electric motors have little issue. Using Hydrogen as a storage medium would shorten refueling/charging time for electric while getting the benefits of more powerful motors
@@jamesegbert3564 and lets not forget when your POWER COMPANY shuts shit off so as to not risk yes ANOTHER deadly fire due to them NOT burying the lines and secondly for NOT maintaining much of the power liens in the state much like Texas does not do shit to maintain its power lines
Interesting!!! I'm from Costa Rica, Central America, and here DC fast charging has similar prices than yours. I did some math because I was interested in buying an EV, but because high DC costs, from a financial point of view, it was a really bad choice. By the way, time charging has to be considered when you have an EV as a work car or truck, because when vehicle is not running, it is not "making money". In this test, was like 50% time driving and 50% charging, not so good. Greetings.
Please remember that he said that the gas truck was actually a hybrid, and at one point he mentioned that the electric motor was assisting the gas motor.
@@justinweatherford8129 yeah, but because load was really high and battery has a low capacity, the electric assistance is really small, actually that's why, in this conditions, they get basically the same fuel consumption of a non hybrid Ecoboost. (By the way, in these days gas prices are too high too, if they go down, the comparison between ICE and EVs will be worse for EVs, and we have to add that minerals like lithium, nickel and cobalt are going up too). Greetings
Another aspect of this is the price of gasoline is determined on what it costs to make and the price of the electricity doesn't. And all of the fossil fuels that it takes to make the electricity. And that is what people don't understand. They think that the electricity comes from nature.
Right
For everyday commuting EVs would be great. For doing actual work, hauling, towing, I'm sticking to gas ⛽️
You just made a few soyboys cry by using facts.
Right on
[All the Diesel drivers chuckle]
Agreed but it will keep closing the gap as the tech evolves.
If you have a relatively short commute say 20 miles or less each way.
Most towing scenarios are into the hundreds of miles so with time to charge and inconvenience of station access (if you have to disconnect trailer), heating and air-conditioning and the fact it takes 1 hour to go from 90% charge to 100%? I think I would just rather look for a gas station, pull in, pull out in 10 to 15 minutes. Long distance EV towing seems not to be an option, imo
Cough, cough, cough.
They just want to trade one evil for another. Lithium mining is their dirty little secret where the earth is still being polluted just in a different way along with child labor being used to mine the lithium in the Congo but hey people will still buy them just like those child labor Nikes people wear. It's all downhill from here, the IDIOT that's in charge is destroying the US and making people believe it's for the better. How you gonna put fuel in those cars how you gonna put food on the table? It's all a larger plan to take control and into communism, enjoy what's left cause the party is over and hell is upon us....
your right about time = money but this is just the start .tech will keep up with demand eventually remember dial up internet and now its up to 5gig 13 years later
@@markmorales573 I do remember all that but we're talking about energy consumption which is probably less now for computers that aren't towing anything...we can only watch and see where batteries go or some other power source that doesn't require rare earth metals etc
@@wdwilson397 i agree ,just saying its just getting started .,but im more worried about the batteries exploding like celpones and those little two wheeled things used to do ,those were small batteries in comparision
00:19 - I'm sorry, but billboard sign for "Kum & Go" just cannot be ignored...like that is literally some GTA universe shit haha
Agreed!
Great video. Love seeing the EV pulling a trailer. What I found amusing is that my 6.7 Cummins turbo diesel is more efficient than both of these light duty rigs in the towing scenario. Even at $5+ per gallon, the big diesel 3500 Ram is more efficient and this trip would cost about $25. We tow a fully enclosed two car hauler with a gooseneck hookup. The trailer weight is just over 16,000# and the total combined weight of the truck, trailer, and cargo is around 25,000# which is just under its max capability. With that we get 11.5-12.3 mpg. The range is over 300 miles with the stock ~30 gallon tank. The size of the trailer doesn't actually matter too much and efficiency would only be a little better with the tag 7000# trailer in the test. And yes with a 3500 Ram single wheel rear axle you don't notice a trailer and acceleration is amazing - after all we the truck has about 1000 ftlb of torque.
I would love an EV to replace my diesel with, and someday pretty soon I do believe that EV trucks will be pulling real loads real distances. It won't be long.
Are you perhaps towing on level ground?
The dirty secrets about Lithium mining haven't seen mainstream exposure yet, and likely won't due to leftist "green policies" (propaganda). I will maintain/repair/replace every single item on a diesel before going to an EV
@@jamesphillips2285 Not towing on level ground, but not towing in the Rockies either. We are based in CT and New England, PA and upstate NY have plenty of rolling Hills. If we haul at high speeds, we get lower mpg, but at 70mph she really does get close to 12 mpg with a full load.
@@Isaacs-hw3bh yea I agree & that sounds about right for our f350 6.7. It was 995 ft/lbs stock so a little more now & it will dang near jerk the trailer off the ball. Only run goosenecks & you can't tell its there either. These new diesels are totally different than the older ones, the ol 7.6 power stroke was good but doesn't even compare to the newer diesels! 👍
A succinct response. The tester talked non-stop the whole video
The results are what I expected. In a nutshell...ice over 70 years R&D. Rivian, what about 13 years. They end up being so close they're nearly equal. That tells me everything I need to know. Yes, diesel will be better, for now. Batteries will continue to improve. Charging will continue to improve. Charging stations will continue to improve. Hats off to Rivian.
One thing to keep in mind is that the EV charge network they used (Electrify America) charged a lot more than other networks - Tesla Superchargers are averaging 16 cents/kWh for me over the last month, and the highest rate I have seen them charge us 24 cents/kWh.
@@lairdpopkin7003 Great info. That makes a big difference.
Supercharging stations I use in New England are 26-31 cents/kWh
The problem is going to be to drive 500 miles your going to have to charge it twice at least. And as more and more people start charging who's to say your not going to have to wait behind 3 people charging and your 6 hour trip is going to take 12 hours.
thx for summary
The eco boost knows what octane and will adjust the timing accordingly.
Wouldn't it be fair to factor in 'time' as part of the cost equation? Time to fill-up your gas tank vs. time to EV charge.
Every use case is going to be different. If you're towing cross country, then having to charge every 100 miles is gonna suck. If you charge at home and stay with in range then it's going to be great. Some people are also going to value the lower emissions and plus gas is going to average up in price (not even looking at current conflict pricing)
Only if you’re getting paid by the mile for freight or something like that. Most peoples trips aren’t that long luckily. The reason long haul trucking can’t work with the EV model.
@@mg20001 Everything is going to average up, including the cost of electricity and the cost of materials to build your EV.
Had he driven 60mph instead of 70mph, he not only would've made up some, if not all, of the cost in fueling, he still would've been back on the road sooner.
Gonna need a shit load of chargers if where going to go electric vehicles.
The most important factor in this test was the obscene markup of the commercial charging point, compared to charging at the retail electricity price at home. Looks like there is a huge market for cheaper charging systems. This tells us there is going to be a LOT of competition in the near future that will drive commercial charging costs way down. I suspect this means every motel and diner along the interstate is going to install multiple charging points.
Of course the Rivian was more stable, it weighs well over 7000 lbs and would be much more comparable in weight (and cost) to a 3/4 ton diesel.
I was about to ask to see this same test with a 3/4 ton diesel, since the diesel economy is much greater than that of gasoline while towing or under load.
On top of having lower center of gravity
& the rivian is only $93,000 out the door. I wonder how far I can tow in summer. 90 Miles? Then a nice 10 hr Charge. Sounds fun.🤔
@@Bellathebear777 😂😂😂
Lmao and they are talking about making electric big rigs. You can see here that it would never work. Range is the biggest problem and then charging time. Time is money and if you can't drive very far and then have to charge all day its laughable. And judging by this video the cost per mile of an electric semi would be the same or more than diesel.
Great documentary, I was shocked to see how much it cost for the electricity. that's a new Rivian too, new battery, new cables under the hood, more expensive to buy. Makes me think that the diesel F350 is probably the cheapest use for heavy towing :-) hummm.
In my last three pick ups, all four wheel drive, I never got less than 12mpg while towing trailers of similar weight. The F150 Hybrid got only 7.8mpg and the range on the EV was at best abysmal.
Yeah I question this also. I made the comment that I had a 94 Chevy truck with a 350 V8 and still got 8 mi per gallon towing a heavy truck/trailer. They really didn't use the right truck for this test
@@scott-dcw-1741 I believe because it's a turbo V6, it stayed downshifted and boosted the whole time so there's efficiency loss there
@@worthypook yeah probably. Any way to make combustion engines look bad eh?
How much more did the ev cost over the hybrid?
Probably the truck they had access to. There are others using different models doing similar comparisons.
I get that these are situationally cool vehicles, but they're definitely niche. For example I'd LOVE one, but we tow a 9200 lb camper behind our Expedition, often 500 miles plus. It would take DAYS to complete that with this. Around town/short towing niche? They'd be amazing. Say a local landscaping or mowing company, or something like that, but if you do any distance towing, they're useless (As they are now). You hook my 37 foot RV behind that thing and it will make it 50 miles. I'd love for electric to make sense, but it shouldn't be crammed down peoples throats with our tax dollars in subsidies if it isn't ready for all situations.
Battery trucks will never replace fossil fuel trucks. Hydrogen power will, and that's why no one, including Tesla, is mass producing battery semi trucks, or even battery pickup trucks for towing.
crammed down peoples throats with our tax dollars in subsidies come on dude this just helps peeps that want one for real it ant like they say they are outlawing gas vehicles
You can't teach these green new deal idealists anything, because most of them are trust fund babies, who have 0% experience in the real world.
The subsidies allow the vehicles to be made and we learn leasons on what works, doesnt and we are all the better for it. Kinda how technology from NASCAR or F1 racing makes it into evertday cars. It is all an experiment. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it takes money and people to find out.
I'm not towing my cattle to market w/o DIESEL
Awesome video. You validated what I expected. I often tow a 6500lb boat and trailer 180 miles in an area where there will never be charging stations. Also you demonstrated the problem of charging when connected to a trailer! I am interested to know how long it actually took to charge. Needless to say no ev truck for me. Thanks again.
Lets do all we can to make that so, for you and the rest of U.S. Seems that soon the PTB may give us no choice as to using fossil fuels and attempt to transition our nation with virtually NO real forethought. More than 1/2 of Americans cant afford food nor housing and they expect us to purchase these inefficient tinker toys!? A change so radical will cause the ruin of many. Seems that is what they want.....
Another thing, in a pinch you can throw a few 5 gallon cans of fuel in the back to get you thru the trip. Can't do that with an EV unless you want to lug a generator with you... which will take fuel, so kind of defeats the purpose.
That Rivian is about 100k brand new judging by all the options it has
King ranch is about 65k brand new
How many years of driving a rivian does it take to get the 35k back, and how reliable at consistent towing is it going to be? I bet the wear and tear of towing loads like that on a normal basis would be dramatically worse on the rivian then any normal sized truck, even less wear on diesels (which are still cheaper then this rivian) and to have parts repaired is way cheaper on gassers, A new engine from a dealership would be around 8k and a new battery would be 20k+
The Longevity of a vehicle and reliability of one is more cost saving and important to the every day person.
EV batteries only lasting around 100k miles on average is something to consider if you drive ALOT and don’t plan on upgrading into a newer one as often as people do phones😂 because 20k for a new battery every about 100k miles will be quite the ache for someone without a giant bank account.
Then you have to take in account long road trips, because time is money and all the time you’ll be waiting for it to charge could’ve been time spent already on the road
Here’s the biggest one for TOWING tho… what happens when you’re pulling a trailer and there’s only one space between 2 cars or it’s at the end? Are You going to disconnect the trailer somewhere everytime just to recharge? There’s even more time spent not getting to where you’re going.
Facts!!
ANOTHER VERY WELL SAID COMMENT!!!
Look guys, I'm ALL FOR technology, but it just is NOT THERE YET and I don't see it ANY TIME SOON to being there?
Plus I keep telling people, you MUST think about the power grids and such. You just CAN NOT expect each and every city to be able to handle that type of "load" from the power grid and/or have THAT many charging stations for ALL EV's that pass through and ESPECIALLY, at least for now, take about an hour or more, just to charge up!!!
Anyways, SO GLAD I'm not the only one thinking outside the box because the people I work with DON'T!!! They think I'm against technology and such, when in fact, I'm just thinking outside the box and logically about the facts as stated by many here!!!
Please show links that show EV batteries last only 100K on average. Who would want an EV at all if that were even close to being the case?
Teslas are million-mile cars. The oldest Teslas are over 400K miles so far, with very little degradation. Even crappy, tiny, old Prius batteries are lasting 200K+ miles. Obviously, there will be the outliers that have batteries that go bad through abuse or just plain bad luck, but this number is extremely small, especially compared to the seemingly poor reliability of an average ICE. Currently, I'd only trust a Toyota gas or hybrid to easily attain 200K+ miles without proper maintenance (for a worst-case scenario). I'm excited to see the EVs they will be bringing out.
Nothing's perfect right out of the gate. Heck, there are some manufacturers that still can't make a dependable and long-lasting vehicle, 30-50 years later. Technology is changing at a blistering pace, and the issues of charging times, infrastructure, battery composition, etc. are being aggressively addressed by pretty close to all vehicle makers on Earth.
tbf. tesla still have the superior advanced batteries compared to its competitor😂 probably helps that he manufactures the batteries in his facility
And top it all off over time that battery will need to be replaced which will eat up everythng you saved at a huge price plus the R&R labor and then there is the disposal fee. And don't even think about having an accident and that battery manages to get punctured..
interesting test but now lets see it running at night in a snow storm in sub-zero temps and the heater is blasting, wipers going, 4wd system working hard... In my parts this is a normal drive multiple times a week in the winter hauling snow,obile trailers... I'd bet the pure electric truck would gobble up the kwh's...
They are already installing fuel operated heaters in EV's over here to combat that problem. It actually makes sense as now you are using the fuel for heating only when needed and at very high heating efficiency, unlike when burning it through the engine for heat (in which case at least 50% is lost, due to the engine being outside, exhaust, no insulation, etc.).
You'd freeze to death.
You know how that would end. This looks like another case of the "suits" making very poor decisions.Can you say New Coke?
I would like to see it at night and cold and hot weather
Yeah...everything is calculated on totally ideal situations ...which we seldom ever have.
Yes, I have been waiting for a test like this... it proves to me that my gas and diesel are the real deal... I dont need to drive 100 miles to sit 45 minutes for a charge
You missed a couple other factors. Time to charge has a value to be included in overall cost. My hourly rate is $35. That has to be factored in. Comparison of total range wasn't addressed. On a 300 mile trip = 3 charges. All these factors have to be included in the evaluation
Agree Cost of Labor is a real cost and needs to be included in the cost comparison (other cost elements need to be included as well to truly compare cost).
300 miles would be 2 charges. You start with a full charge every morning at home. It would be 3 for the return trip... unless you have overnight charging at the far end .. but assuming you return immediately 5 charges total.
Also filling up a truck isn't time free.
@@macmcleod1188
Filling up with gas take less than 10 min. So 5 times 10 is 50 min vs 4 to 5 hours
Great point. Something none of the reviewers think about when making reviews. Time = money.
Don't forget that gas vehicles need oil changes and there are maintenance issues like hoses and brakes that electric didn't have to deal with.
Great video, really appreciate all the details and hard work you guys do getting the information.
Certainly does kind of confirm that if you tow regularly over long distances. You're probably better off with the gas truck. The other thing is you don't necessarily have to be buying an F-150 King ranch that cost that kind of money. There are plenty of less expensive options for work trucks that could tow.
But I think the biggest problem is going to be whether anybody actually wants to stop every 90 to 100 miles and have to sit for however long deal with unhooking a trailer just to go another 90 mi.
Certainly gasoline is expensive and you have maintenance and other things that come into play with the internal combustion truck. But you also have to think about what your time is worth. Especially if it's a work-related towing job. It just isn't going to work.
Now if you're just talking about towing a boat or a small utility trailer every once in awhile then it's going to be perfectly fine to deal with that inconvenience. But no one is going to tolerate putting up with that day in and day out nor could they afford to waste the time to do so.
Thanks again for all the hard work you guys do it's really appreciated.
I agree time is a huge factor I charge 80 an hour minimum for my business where does that cost come in to play when it takes five minutes to fill up with gas and an hour to charge who do I get to pay that bill.
I certainly cannot afford to lose that time
Kudos to the chargepoint designers for making a charging cable just long enough to reach all the way across
not really sure what is the meaning of this "test"... the proper test would be to use similar trailers behind both vehicles, set up a destination that is above either trucks maximum distance with a "full tank" and then measure the time. Where I live, I would do the test in -5F... Because over here, we like towing trailers outside "optimal temperature", not because we want to, but actually have to. For some reason with electric trucks it all about price? It should be about utility. I know for sure that if I need tow something anywhere, here I need to get back also without a chance for refill/recharge. I actually did equip my other Isuzu with a generator to go and power toy cars, much easier than to just haul them to nearest "quickcharge-station"
To make it more fun, if it took 10 minutes to fuel up the truck, that's how long the electric vehicle should be charged for... that would be a good test. And run it then and see how long it would last and not use the quick charger, there is no quick fuel at the pump
well i mean theres high flow pumps which all gas stations have
@@thresh9606 only big truck diesel pumps are high flow due to no filler neck on the fuel tanks, regular gas tanks have bends in their fuel neck going into the tank, fuel would be blowing back out the fuel spout if they used high flow pumps for gas
this was obviously not a time comparison video... It takes thousands of years to store the energy in gasoline, not to mention huge refining operations and having to explode it in your vehicle just to extract the energy back out. Gasoline is like liquid pre-charged battery. With EVs, most of that work is done at the charging station, and it's a wonder that you can charge a battery in a matter of hours rather than millennia.
Sure there is, it's called the truck/RV lane and quite a few diesel and gas trucks use it, I do.
I fill my F450 at truck stops, with their fast fuel dispensers, 10 minutes from the time I pull the nozzle from the pump to put it back would probably completely fill my 48 gallon tank.
They forgot to add the additional cost of eating lunch while the EV charged. Plus, how much longer would it have taken to tow your camper 600 miles to an area without a charging stations in the sticks of Arkansas. Other than that, the Rivian was very impressive.
thats the thing you dont count the amount of money you use buying lunch
only the amount it take to charge the ev._.
pretty sure people eat lunch regardless of whether or not they drive an EV lol
Of course there is WAY more maintenance costs with gas/diesel. Oil changes, spark plugs, fuel injectors, tranny fluid, front and rear diff fluid, tranny fluid etc.
@@sitkarules1 so in 100k miles my diesel needs 10 oil changes, 0 spark plugs, 1 transmission and diff oil change… using an EV like I use my diesel would put you at End of Life of the EV batteries with an average replacement cost of $15k, which is much more than my maintenance costs, not to mention the DAYS worth of waiting for charging to go any significant distance, but go on…
@@shamarerskine3987 It's not about the food. Read on.
Lets take a trip of 500 mile with stops at 100 mile for fill up or top off. Total of 4 stops even thought the F150 want need 4 stops. There will be less cost with the gas truck. Assuming 45 minute charging time compared to 10 minute fill up. The Rivian would take 10:08 hours at to arrive and the F150 would arrive in 9:45 driving at 55mph making the drive safer and more fuel efficient. Time not charging is an advantage to the F150. And if the Rivian has to disconnect the trailer to charge up??? For local trips, I'd pick the Rivian. For long hauls, I'm going Gasser or diesel.
One thing I noticed was how much louder the EV was on the road. Overall, I think as a towing vehicle, the Rivian is not even an option just for having to wait to charge & range. Most tow for their business or recreation, & with time being money or fun time, the Rivian loses.
Pulling my 30' TT 80 miles and stopping for an hour to recharge doesn't sound like a lot of fun. With my Chevy 1/2 ton range is 200 plus and takes 5 minutes to fill up. And never have to worry about "can I get to the pump". So no thanks to EV for me.
Apparently you you didn't listen to his several comments about how much better the rivian drove.
One needs to think about all aspects. Have a nice day.
Yea….. not trading my 7.3 for this electric Tacoma. I would never get work done if I had this thing. All the time would be spent charging. These trucks will always be for people who don’t actually NEED a truck.
@@russhills2773 it dove better because it weights hundreds of pounds more then the F150, and it has 4 corner air ride. A good weight distribution hitch will take the bounce out of the Ford. Not that it matters tho, ICE for the win.
@@davidroman1654 In 10 years from now, you'll have a different opinion. Charge time down, range up, charger infrastructure no longer an issue.
My old 1995 F250 7.3 Powerstroke got 9 to 11 mpg usually pulling passes on much longer trips while pulling a 30' RV trailer about the same 7500 lb weight. I once got 13 mpg on I-5 from near Olympia Wa to Roseburg Ore no passes.
I still own it from new, now with 148k on the speedo. I have not done a mpg test with a load for many years but a few months back I checked mpg and the truck still gets 22 cruising at 65 - 70(same as when new) on a 6hr trip one way hauling 2 IBC tanks that don't weigh much but they were about 5 inches above the cab creating some wind resistance. I noticed the Rivian with 86% when calculating towing the estimated range was 122 miles. I seldom hooked up my RV without pulling 250 miles before stopping.
Great to see someone finally focusing on this.
On the ecoboost when towing you can lock 7th gear, which increases rpm's, but keeps it out of boost keeping mpg's up. As a side benefit it also keeps the engine cooler because it is circulating more coolant.
I never tried that before, so basically you make 7th gear your top gear eliminating 8,9,10 ? how much of a increase did you see in mpgs? I usually average 8.5 to 11
@@dinosaurqueen7634 your range seems about normal, maybe 1 mpg more. But, your engine will run cooler and be mostly in the higher end of your mpg range.
Great video ! It's not the usage that is the de-terminating factor, it's the range and time. I myself can't ever see a semi ever being electric until you can charge them in the same time that you can fuel one. Fossil fuels still give more power, range and save time and electric uses more fossil fuels to do less from what we currently use.
How many employers want to pay an employee to sit and do nothing. Time is a major cost for analyzing this test.
Such a BS demo no real comparison!!!
That last line is absolute fact!
EVs have a lot more power. The Tesla semi can go 65MPH vs 45 MPH up a grade with a load than a typical diesel semi. It has a 500 mile range, loaded. This is also a significant time savings over a diesel in hilly or mountainous terrain. Much of the charging can be done during sleep, or breaks.
@@xeridea Much of that is negligible at this exact point in time though...meaning EV semis still have to improve to match many of the characteristics of diesels.
People continue to leave out the gas tax factor. Much of the cost of gas, is tax that is used to maintain roads and highways infrastructure. Electric vehicles will have to carry this burden soon so expect a 30 cent per mile tax added to your EV via your mileage sent directly to the IRS
Now imagine the time loss between a diesel pickup towing that same trailer, getting 13 mpg, at $5/gallon, dragging it 1100 miles (in 17 hours in the diesel, with 5 minute refueling)
SMH - there's no place, in the real world, for EV trucks.
Maybe not yet, but we’ll get there
Why would I want to imagine that? I use my truck around town, home depot, ganahl, etc. I rarely put more than 100 miles on it a day. Plug it in when I get home and I'm basically spending like 45 seconds on "filling" it over a month. If I need to go longer, I use a different vehicle.
Except the Cyber truck.
@@grakkerful So you just buy a truck for status not the real reason a truck was built? Please do not try to defend yourself on this because you literally just said that without actually saying it. So with that said your comment was pointless to say the least and proves how little you actually need a truck because if you need a truck so little at this point of only needing to charge it for 45 seconds a month then you don't actually need a truck. Where as the person that made this original comment is more than likely trying to point out a situation you do need a truck for. EV trucks are nothing more than a "Status Symbol" stating..."Hey look at me I bought something that costs $80,000. I am better than you." but completely ignore the fact that you bought a truck that has no point on this planet other than to be much more damaging to the environment and it will cost you more money to maintain it in the long run than the gas powered truck. If you don't believe me crack open a science book once in your life and actually read it, don't just nitpick hypotheticals that "proves" you right, read the full data and real world testing.
Now with that said next time....think before you open your mouth it might save you some time and embarrassment from rebuttals like mine. But alas you are going to ignore what I said, make some really dumb statements, insult me as a person, and then block me instead of getting a proper education on something before opening ones mouth.
@@ricosuava21 Lighten up, Francis. I said I'd spend 45 seconds of MY time. Come home, plug in. I use my truck to move materials around my town and a couple other close ones. I don't know what weird incel gatekeeping you feel you're doing, but it's both low effort and high ignorance.
Oh, this one is easy. With National Grid here in MA, you pay only $0.155 per kWh for the electricity, but then they whack you with $0.168 per kWh in fees like "Delivery Fee", "Transmission Fee", "Green Energy Fee", etc. So, unless fuel is over about $3.60 a gallon (which historically it does not stay that high here - typically in the $2.50 range) the EV is more expensive without the trailer.
It was well under that before Brandon took over.
The big difference is I can do that loop time after time with the gas engine , same for a diesel. With electric I may need to need to sit there for hours depending on the charging rate, how depleted the batteries are and the temperature before leaving again. If I'm out in the country I can easily find gas finding a place to plug in, not so easy. PS using fuel that's higher octane rated then the owner manual calls for only wastes money. In modern engines there is no reason to do so nor will you get a performance boost.
They just like to spend the extra money.
@@stevemurphy1051 Anymore I'm much more cynical. I think it was to insure the electric truck was cheaper even if it was only by a little. Running regular gas would have made the gasoline truck less. That wouldn't have fit the narrative.
@@johnkendall6962 They calculated what it would be for regular so that makes no sense.
@@Cosmic_Railgun That's not what I heard. I heard him say IF they had used regular it would have been less not that he calculated it to the same as if they had. Even then it still is an apple to oranges comparison. People have a misguided idea of what the difference between regular and high test is. The difference is only the fuels ability to resist knock. There is actually more BTUs in a gallon of regular fuel. Unless an engine is designed for premium a truck will also get better fuel mileage on regular. With todays prices it doesn't take much fuel to make up 4 dollars.
Also, Keep in mind that not all roads are flat. tow with an EV in moderate hilly areas and you'll soon discover the reality of towing with an EV, its not as good as you would like both in cost and distance.
After watching this well made and informative video - these are the takeaways;
1. The owner sat there for almost 1 hour to recharge the truck - contrast this to maybe 5 minutes to refuel the F-150 truck!
2. With all the talk about distracted driving I'm quite surprised that US DOT even allows such large screens as a visual distraction . I wonder if there has been a study on the distraction of these large informative screens compared to say - changing a CD in your car or perhaps heaven forbid - talking on the phone!
3. With more and more people living in an apartment where little to no thought of charging has be established the charging cost will for many be the higher number.
4. So , while the lure of EV's are nice they are NOT ready for prime time if for no other reason the wait to charge time that hasn't really sunk in to the general population yet!
I propose a test --- Lets imagine that just 50% of the residents of, say, Denver at 7 PM plug in their 50 amp load and see what happens to the power grid on say the 4th of July!
Just my two cents.
Yes, due to the cost of regular houses more and more are moving into apartments or town homes. Zero of these new builds in my area have EV charging. Obviously in an apartment it is impossible because each parking spot is designated for each occupant with a few overflow spots and a couple for visitors. No one will add an EV charging station to every designated parking spot. It will never happen, maybe 2 to 4 spots will be designated for charging but who gets that to charge their vehicle overnight.
I can go 400 miles in my fx4 pulling 3500 lbs and 400 lbs in the bed. Best thing is it takes less than 5 minutes to fuel back up and head out. Have 0 problems
well even if you increased mileage driven to 75 each way i don't think someone like this guy can ensure he drives the same each time which WILL affectthe outcome.
Fueling is faster, for now, but ICE trucks dump more pollutants into the air. I'll take the extra time to help preserve our only planet. Not to mention, I love the quiet of the electric vehicles.
And how much does a tank of gas cost?
@@philborer877 look up lithium mining not so environmentally friendly. Where do you think that power is coming from to charge an electric car. Here's a hint fossil fuels
@@mattd19902010 Solar Panels on your home can be used to charge. Also, I’m looking forward to the solar power plants.
When I look at all these tests on UA-cam there's one key factor that stands out besides the obvious price difference between an R1T and F150 and that's Time. If I factor in my hourly rate as an IT consultant I'm losing more money on the road with the R1T recharging vs in and out at the gas pump in less than 5 minutes.
Now add the not so impressive range here to overlanding with an off road RV like the Opus 15 or HQ 15, I'll be stranded on the first off road trip hoping that someone can tow my R1T like the long way up series.
If you factor your hourly rate as an IT consultant, it makes no sense that you tow whatever it is at all.
Any transportation company can move what you need much cheaper than you . 🤪
The vast vast majority of EV's charge at home so add the many many gas stations visits and oil changes that don't happen in an EV. Add solar and gets even cheaper. I can't even imagine buying a new gas car today unless the use case was frequent towing or long roadtrips past 400-500 miles.
@@e-redjmy time is worth the same towing or not towing, but I doubt I'll find a transportation company to tow an overland/off road RV.- off the grid from let's say Phoenix to Yuma which we do each year.
@@ezmn9663 exactly let's take your ending, road trips from ME to AK, NY to AZ on a whim I would still need to pull out my Ram that I have an extended range LRAM tank for and 20 additional gallons in reserve giving me a range of over 700 miles when towing at 8 to 9 MPG.
Right now it just doesn't make any sense for my main use case - overlanding.
Let me add, I was one of the first to call Rivian where I had asked about extended off the grid road trips if I could set up a charging station off the RV using a LifePO4 setup with Solar over an extended period of time. Like setting up Camp in Moab for a week. The key here is with pups traveling and towing the limited range just doesn't work.
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Interesting. My 22 year old Chevy pickup (K3500) one ton/4 wheel drive with 320,000 miles gets 9 to 12 mpg pulling similar weight trailer. Of course the 5.7 v8 only needs regular gas.
I have a 1999 F150 4.3 8 cylinder, Triton motor, Automatic tran. Does not need premium gas.
Driving from Minnesota to Texas, hauling cement statuary and the rest heavy objects, too, at 80 MPH freeway speed, got 25 MPG consistently. Gets about that in city, too. And Triton motor can usually go 500,000 miles without any major engine work. Handles MN -40s and TX +110.
It took 1 hour of charging to save $4 on a 58 mile trip. It probably took 45-50 minutes to do the trip. You can fill a 36 gallon F150 in about 10-15 minutes tops. That F150 got 7 mpg. 7 x 36 = 252 miles with that load. The Rivian gets 290 miles range unloaded. At speed limit +3 I averaged 21 mpg round trip from Lorain, OH to Fountain Colorado and back with a trip to Royal Gorge and some other driving totalling over 3000 miles. Top speed was 78 mph in a 75 zone. That's about the only time I could remember losing significant mpg. Had we done 60-65 it would have been even higher.
My truck weighs about 5400 lbs. It can tow that trailer no problem. Not sure what my max tow is, I'm guessing it's 9-10k. But i would never put more than 8k on it. We had a tonnaeu cover on a 2017 F150 crewcab 4x4 5.5 ft bed 5.0 6 spd with 18 inch wheels.
I'll keep my F150 thanks. The Rivian is real cute, but past being a an trendy alternative to a Tesla, it serves no practical purpose. Any arguments are null and void. I can drive 500 miles at 17 mpg city commuting, or I can get on the highway and drive 10 hours straight, get 650+ miles and it takes 20 minutes to fill up.
When the battery capacity, charging speed and charging infrastructure cacth up, EV's might be worthhile to drive more than city commuting. But today is not that day, tomorrow ain't looking good either.
Just imagine if we were paying $1.80 a gallon for regular like we were in 2020. I think I paid just over $2 a gallon for Colorado 87 grade in June of 2020. That Rivian would be completely pointless. It would have cost about $14 to run the F150 and the Rivian would have cost twice as much. It's almost like the current adminstration is trying to ram expensive EV's down our throats by contributing to jacked up gas prices based off an agenda.
Cool truck though. But I'll keep my F150 for the time being.
Edit: Unless gas is over $4 a gallon, or you own a Tesla. There is very little savings to be had at this stage in our current era EV's, at least in terms of range/charging vs gas vehicles. Especially smaller more efficient vehicles or hybrids.
Nothing like real world experience to help shed light. Well done.
You nailed it.
As long as towing trips are short, it shouldn't be an issue. Rivian is a nice looking truck. Plus if you are towing huge trailers all the time..just get a diesel and be done with it.
The front of the Rivian looks like hammered crap.
Neat test. Big thing to me is that with the F150 it probably took a minute to fill it up with ~8 gallons of fuel. But to bring the Rivian back to 85% charge it took an hour. Time is money too.
Crymore
Now tow across country including up and down hills with it!
When you’re in love with something people tend to make a lot of excuses for the bad parts, electric trucks suck towing, if you’re test was twice as long the rivian would not have made it back, while the ford could have made the trip 3 times , and you don’t have to shut everything down and wait 40 minutes or disconnect the trailer, do a real test , like 500 miles and see how much love is left
The battery is evolving. No worries, your concerns will eventually be no more. But the electric motor is about 5 times more energy efficient, and it's disappointing that this test didn't address that.
The problem is you can’t really go anywhere towing a camper or trailer with an electric truck. 100 mile range is not good and I don’t see the lightning doing much better I think we have a ways to go before electric trucks can handle towing!
I don't think recreational towing will ever be an eTruck's strength (recreational == towing campers/boats/off road stuff to the great outdoors); however it seems like this would work for the construction trades; add high-amp vehicle to load (I don't know much about the Rivian) and it could potentially eliminate the need for gas powered on-site generators too.
This Ev craze is great for anyone going to the mall, or the grocery store. Not really good for anything that involves a real truck, to do real truck things.
And this is why you get a cybertruck. better weight saving design. better batteries.. better towing. plus you arent waiting 4 hours to charge/.
Exactly. I want to be able to tow a trailer around 350 miles per day. With my current tow vehicle, I have to stop once for gas to do that. Maybe 10 minutes. How long would I spend charging an electric truck to go that far (assuming I could even find a charging station in middle-of-nowhere New Mexico or Arizona)?
@@BarryObaminable looks like crap, from a company not known for quality. No thanks.
Would have been interesting to know how long it took to recharge the Rivian back up to 85%. You said it took 2 charging sessions, why was that? Time is a cost as well. How long would it take to tow that trailer to Salt Lake City in each truck? A matter of hours in the F-150 and a matter of days in the Rivian.
Probably took two charging sessions because they needed to stop charging, move the truck/trailer, detach, and then start charging again.
If you look at the graphs he presented, 59 minutes. 47 the first time and 12 at the higher kWh rate. An hour, basically, to get an 85% charge. In no way practical.
@@phyre1238 Yes, just like he explained in the video. Kent, didn't you watch the results section?
that's an hour and a half.
@@robinflint4850 notice how the f150 was the truck that returned the trailer. The rivians are rich men's toys to use in urban centres. $80000 to charge every 60 miles, what a joke.
Calculations are wrong because you need to add weight of missing passenger in ev
Good test, this experiment takes away all the emotion and smoke and mirrors of electric vs gas bs. thanks for sharing this experience. I’m sure it will help a lot of people make an educated purchase based on their needs. Rivian would probably be a great choice for the NYC market and gas for the longer haul areas.
When's the LAST time you've been to NYC??? Finding a gas station LET ALONE a PLACE to PARK IT is OUTRAGEOUS to say the LEAST!!! EV's for a WORK TRUCK (as that is the REAL purpose for OWNING ONE!) is probably the SINGLE STUPIDEST thing I've EVER seen!!! But you go ahead and keep smelling your own farts while singing Kum-By-Ya all day!!!
F150 does recommend premium when towing with eco boost. It’s in the manual.
Eco boost is Turbo charge and all turbo charged cars should be using premium only.
Great comparison. This is a question that I have most wanted to see an answer to. Will be very interesting to see how the F150 Lightning ⚡ compares once it comes out soon. When it comes to towing heavy loads frequently and longer distances I think diesel pickups probably are still the most efficient option. Great job 👍
I agree for now. Towing heavy or long distance often, diesel is the way to go.
I tow ~12k infrequently. I use a 2000, gas, 1 ton, 4x4, crew cab, long box. At 75 mph I'm happy to get 6 mpg. My range is around 200 miles. I won't buy a diesel. I can't stand the cost, noise, smell, repairs, etc. Each person needs to weigh the pros & cons based on their individual use case.
@@simonthebroken9691 New diesels are quiet and don't really smell. Go test drive a RAM 2500 with a Cummins. You can barely hear it
@@rcktmn I'm sure you're right. I can't afford anything new. My goal is to electrify a 25 year old 1 ton. If I start small and add batteries as I can afford. Then I'll have my cake & eat it to. The batteries are the most expensive hurdle right now.
I'm on the Dave Ramsey plan to build wealth. If I can't pay cash. I'm not buying it.
I'm looking forward to The F150 Lightning test using the same setup!! The RT1 definitely gave me good insight as to expectations, my use case is a 7x14 V-nose with cargo TTL weight ~4000, I hope to eek out better results on a 212 miles round trip, mid trip charging is definitely in my plan.
My 2012 Powerstroke 6.7 averages 13 mpg. definitely better than the powerboost, now I'm not so interested in using that as an alternate should my deal with the Lightning fall through, I think I will stay with a new Powerstroke
@@simonthebroken9691 right on. sounds like a cool project!
Wow...SUPER proud of my '99 Ram 2500 5.9L RWD gasser for getting better fuel economy while towing than a new truck! It gets about 8.5mpg. Unloaded on the highway I can get as "good" as 16mpg. It averages about 14mpg most of the time.
What if the charging with the trailer connected fiasco happened in a cold downpour? Or you have a long enough trip on a rainy ol' day that you get soaked every time you have to recharge? In most of the videos I've seen the charging stations have no protective overhead awning whereas you would be hard pressed to find a gas pump that wasn't covered...
Change takes time. There will eventually be gas station style convenience store/charge stations, charge stations scattered everywhere like ATM machines. You guys act like you have no clue how the world works.
@@chadcoady9025 I'm talking about right now. They have a loooong way to go. Why not build some protection from the elements as the charging stations are constructed?
@@charlesjones2563 the first charging stations take put out for the early adopters allowed then free unlimited charging, so they made them as cheap as possible. Stepping outside to plug them in doesn’t take long and it’ll probably be up to the facility to put them under a canopy. I don’t think anyone wants to spend too much money yet, especially since the federal government through tax payers, is investing billions into charging stations. The plan in some areas is to have charging stations on the side of streets in configurations like parking meters. Parking meters are out in the elements because there are so many of them. They’ll be a mix of plane bars bones charging stations and charging stations at rest stops with restraints that’ll be covered. The next 5-10 years, they’ll be popping up everywhere.
To be honest they made a meal of charging with a trailer attached. Many ICE car drivers with trailers detach their trailer at places where there just isn't practical amounts of room. They could have detached the trailer and parked it separately making it easier for everyone. They were just being lazy. The joke is that some people are predictably posting here about how long it takes to charge the Rivian. But, if you're stopping for an hour or more to charge the Rivian then what's point of saving a few minutes by not un-hitching the trailer? It's straight up bullshit! Un-hitch the trailer, charge as normal, re-hitch and fuck off. Is that too hard? Does it make your soft hands bleed to do some manual labour? 🤣
@@chadcoady9025 it's not happening buddy. The world isn't buying these fat RC cars because the whole dozen of you nuts keep telling everyone to get them
You used the highest priced fuel in the F150 LOL, and didn't have an extra person in the Rivian while performing the tow test. I'd like to see you do the IKE gauntlet with these two vehicles with the same load. Range under tow was the reason we cancelled our R1S order. I do like how the Rivian appears to tow smoothly compared to the F150. Mirror extensions are always a good thing we use them on our Expedition (same engine as in the F150 tested in this video). We also came to the same conclusion as shown in this video regarding lack of pass through charge stations, I'm wondering how long it'll take for the EV infrastructure companies to correct this shortcoming. Enjoyed the video, we tow our camper many many times each year with our Expedition, not giving it up for an R1S type vehicle just yet, however we do have a Suburban Duramax diesel on order. We enjoy our MACH-E for around town as well...love bypassing the pump. Thanks again for the video.
I was gonna ask was there a reason why the f 150 had a passenger and the rivian didn’t ? That is a factor comparing gas vs electric for mileage .
If you're towing your bass boat 25 miles to the lake and back the EV seems like the winner.
However if your towing across the country or state the Gas power is the winner, especially if you factor in charging (wait) time.
You should do a test on the rivian testing the range loss from having devices charging on the outputs, have laptops charging on the 120v sockets, phones/ipads charging on the USB-C and cigarette lighter 9v outputs, then compare it without, leave it overnight charging a ton of devices from 70% (car battery) and then leave it overnight for another night as a control, im interested to see how much battery would be lost if I was out camping and using the car to charge my devices overnight. Love the videos and the rivian tests im general, thats my future car 100%
Yes so you saved three dollars but what you’re not saying is you spent over an hour charging when in a gas vehicle are you in a filled up in five minutes and you wouldn’t of had to unhook it hook it back up just to save that $.20 a minute after a certain time.
Also $30,000 more on top of everything. LOL
Yes in towing true evs not great for towing but on there own you would save alot daily driving
I’m very curious to know what the relative impact of weight versus aerodynamics is on range. Based on my experience towing a larger frontal area aluminum horse trailer (empty) versus a utility trailer with an ATV on it, I think aero is a huge factor. Everyone talks about weight but at highway speeds I’m suspicious that aero may be the bigger factor. Cool test!
Ever tow an open snowmobile trailer with 2 sleds side by side? It may as well be a huge wind sock. Aerodynamic drag is the primary factor in fuel/energy consumption not weight.
Factoring in aero and everything else they missed in a general gas/EV comparison, this was really only a rough look at that specific Ford model vs that specific Rivian model. More than that though, this video was just enough content to generate monetized views and sponsorship dollars for the channel.
In europe, at this moment its almost 10x more expensive to drive with fossil motor. Almost every fuel costs here 2,3-2,4 eur/liter, electricity costs 10-15 cents per kWh
In Germany on fast loading station there is no price under 40 Cent per kwh. There are prices till 80 cent
I knew that your fuel rates were about double the US rates, but I'm somewhat surprised to see that your electric rates are approximately equal to US rates. That makes an EV purchase a "no brainer" for Europeans.
@@stevehuthman741 not if you compare a Diesel at long Ranges with charging over 60 Cent.
But yes, for nearly every Tasks, it is a no brainer.
At $2.20 per gal gas, the 150 would have been 17.25 in fuel, $7.00 less, which prove Biden has increased the cost of gas with this in mind
With the Realization of only getting ~100 miles while towing, I think there is a fair chance a good amount of charging on a vehicle that tows will be done outside the home greatly reducing the cost savings from that aspect. Pure speculation on that though, but I cant say buying an EV truck would be justified only based on being cheaper while towing IF charging only at home.
Yup, because most of the charging would have to be done on the road if you have to travel more than 200 mi.
Great comparison and very well done. Your test could have gone a bit further with adding data for the time to recharge the electric truck compared to the time to fill the gas truck.
How about the reality of an ACROSS COUNTRY trip? How long will it take?
Also, include a comparison in energy consumption, considering that electric motors are 5X more efficient than ICE.
@@rbbartho1 OOooohhhh I KKKkkkkNNnoooowww....
I think it's more like 100x more efficient according to the data I pulled out of my ass.
Without the addition of the passenger in the EV truck (like the f-150 had) this really isn’t a true comparison. Weight is a huge factor in efficiency.
They probably realized that when they saw the mileage calculation and decided to forego the additional 200 or so pounds to increase their chances of not dying on the highway.
Electric torque power delivery makes the addition of ONE passenger completely irrelevant. Did you not see the bit where they said they couldn't feel the towed weight AT ALL in the Rivian. But you think they'd feel ONE PERSON?
@@trevorberridge6079 the test was not about towing capacity, it was about mileage and the cost to tow the same weight. Yes electric motors have more torque but torque doesn’t equate to mileage efficiency. The addition of any weight TO ANY VEHICLE will effect it’s mileage efficiency.
@@RAM-vq7kp And towing will drain the range of ANY vehicle. Not an EV problem. A physics problem.
Actually weight is not very important, aerodynamics is much much more important.
Great video!
And you used a calculator when you had Excel open…basically a calculator 🤣
Adding a comment to help you guys out 😉
Great informative videos!
Where you fall short on your thinking is your time is worth Nothing. If you throw out the 12min charge for the gas up for the 150 you still have wasted 47mins charging.
7.3 MPG... OMG I would also like to have seen how long it took to recharge the electric truck.
What was the outside temp? It seems the test was done in a favorable temp for the EV. If it was done in 100-110 degrees in summer heat, the EV would have been far less effective and may have even suffered from the thermal overload.
I could'nt imagine driving an hour and stopping for an hour plus to charge.
Then people say, "Oh well, it's unloaded that you really see the benefits." Nope. I drive over 300 miles every weekend to go home, and I wouldn't even make it home before I would have to charge this thing again. Then drive back to work sunday evening and spend an extra hour somewhere charging it again.
I think on the dash of one of the vehicles it said 46 degrees.
Or when the temp is below 20 degrees.
Temperature doesn't really change that much... how much do you think would efficiency change?
@@IIARROWS According AAA, EVs lose 40% of their range at 20 deg f. They tested most of the top EVs.
@@cvr527 with or without heat pumps
If you tow often, it only makes sense to get a diesel truck with an extra large fuel tank. If you hardly ever tow, get an EV and then rent a diesel truck for that one day a year you need to tow. EVs are great for daily driving to and from work empty, but not there yet for towing.
For me it's the time it takes to fill the truck up with gas vs the time it takes to charge the other trucks batteries to 85%.
The V6 is not a good choice for towing that much weight, the 5 liter [ or bigger ] would have better fuel economy
Who drives 120kmph/70mph while towing in the eu its illegal to drive over 100kmph/60mph while towing.
Imagine having to emergency brake with 11000 pounds at 70 mph.
To get "real" towing range on an EV, we're going to need much, much bigger batteries. The trailer you used is great for this type of test, but that's a "baby" compared to really towing with a HD pickup truck. I regularly tow around a 20K 5th wheel trailer; which of course, is way beyond the spec of anything out there today. My truck holds 40 gallons of fuel and I get around 250-300 miles between tanks (7-8MPG). To replicate that performance in an EV, the numbers go shockingly plaid very quickly. A trailer that big/heavy, figure 2KW/mile as a reasonable estimate. Getting to 300 miles would take a 600KW battery pack, probably actually a little bit more because you can't run it totally flat after each refueling.
Even if we figure a way to stuff that much battery into the vehicle, the next problem, how on earth do you deliver 500KW in anything like a reasonable time frame? And then doing that at scale, fueling up 10 trucks at a time for example, the amount of energy delivery needed is ridiculous.
What we need for towing is a diesel/electric hybrid pickup truck. A moderate sized battery (100KW), coupled to moderate sized diesel engine (3L) that does nothing but spin a generator to provide power to the wheels. Short trips/not towing, you can run pure EV. Longer trips, the diesel kicks on. But you don't need a monster 6.7L diesel, you can tune the 3L for max efficiency because it'll only ever run one RPM, and much of the time, you won't need the engine at all.
I'd buy that truck tomorrow if it were offered. Huge EV torque, long range, fuel efficient, refuel at any truck stop (which are all configured to allow for long trailers at the pump). If we want to clean up this segment of the auto market, this is the type of vehicle we have to build. Or we can just keep waiting and doing tests for the next 30 years until the technology is finally at a point where you can do it with a pure EV.
You're describing a locomotive. Age old tech that works very well. I don't understand this 100% electric BS. It's very disturbing how everyone is running blindly at these dumb things.
@@kevinrcoffman You've got it Kevin, a locomotive is exactly the model for what I'm describing. Electric motors as a way to propel a vehicle are just, in nearly every respect, better than a directly coupled transmission. And they also can be easily powered by multiple sources (batteries/regen braking/generator/etc). So, let's take the tech we have today, good motors, decent batteries and good diesel engines; couple them together, and get a vehicle that has most of the EV advantages without the two huge EV downsides (range and refueling time). If I could get a diesel/electric hybrid F450, I'd buy one tomorrow. If it had a 50-100KW pack in it, I'd save a lot of fuel not using the diesel for most of my trips around town. And when I'm towing or going further, the 3L diesel (vs the monster 6.7 that's in my truck today) could kick on and keep the batteries topped up. No noisy exhaust brake turning energy into sound, charge those batteries up when we're coming down the mountain with 20K lbs behind us.
I would really love to see one of these videos comparing the Rivian to the F-150 Lightning.
It would be silly to compare it to a 2022 F250 with 3:70 gears and a 6.7 Powerstroke.. I'm betting 13mpg..
The question isn't if it's cheaper to tow with...the real question is what if the cost of electricity goes up by 1000% ...like it did in Germany ?
Electricity has already increased 45% since he shot this video.
First off, superb test from every standpoint! Thank you for staying mostly unbiased in your test and conclusions. I have been pining for a proper EV vs. ICE comparison test in real world conditions and you guys have delivered.
I won't say that I am surprised by your conclusions however, EV towing tech is not yet practical as range is obviously a huge constraint. But EV for daily commuting is a no-brainer. It proposes to solve nearly all problems associated with local air quality, total energy use (although start/stop is helping ICE efficiency) and noise.
Some concerns I do have are EV infrastructure, i.e. availability of charge stations and loading on local power grids, although both are easily solved over time but at additional costs. I am also concerned with the proliferation of EV pushing the train of energy back to traditional coal and methane power plants. Every EV consumer must be prepared to accept the fact that their vehicle is essentially coal powered and carries that connotation with it. One last concern is the kind of waste generated over the life of EV. I have to do more research on the feasibility of battery bank recycling. The rest of the vehicle will recycle just fine through the already existing recycle path. At this point I'm not sure what happens to one ton of lithium ion batteries at the end of their usable life. This will be huge problem in a very short time if not addressed accordingly.
Maybe you can address this in a future episode?
Thanks again for a great video and although my comments may seem anti-EV, I am a big fan of the technology and do absolutely believe in their utilization especially in regions where they will be most effective.
its not that proper its not a perfectly fair comparison when they had 2 people in the ICE truck and only 1 person in the electric truck.
@@yomomma1459 the math wasn't done properly either, charge time was approximately 50 min. He conveniently didn't add the .20 mark up, about 3.00 in total making it higher then gas
This is a good experiment. The edge goes to the ev if you’re moving your house to somewhere local or within 60 miles. If anything more than 60 miles, convenience and effectiveness goes to the ice motors. I think refueling would be the biggest advantage given the state of ccs charging uptimes.
We definitely need more videos that explain towing range loss in gas trucks. I have a helpful link bookmarked, but a Google search almost never shows it and overwhelmingly returns hits for the EV side of the issue only.
That's because it effects range but not as drastically on the gas truck, and the Gas truck starts off with a much longer range. There's also the fact that gassing up takes 5 minutes and there are stations at almost every exit, and charging up an EV Truck takes 45 minutes to an hour, and the stations are every 100 miles.
@@thomasklein4265 mostly true (though I wouldn't say it can't be as drastic: it can go up to 40% in gas vehicles too depending on the weight of the tow), but whenever the discussion comes up, the critics are never sophisticated enough to mention either fact. They almost always treat it as an exclusive issue to EVs.
@@Necrotron I think Towing is the one application that Gas / Diesel still dominates, but that should change as 2nd and 3rd generation EV trucks come out. Were only seeing the first generation of EV trucks now. Eventually denser energy packs and more battery capacity , that are quicker to charge will change that equation.
@@Necrotron It also depends on the vehicle and how it's set up.
@@SilverStarHeggisist yes, I know that
One thing missing from your cost analysis is that by disconnecting the Rivian mid-charge and having a 12 minute charge and 47 minute charge rather than a 59 minute charge, you only paid that $.20/min fee on 12 minutes rather than 24. Add8ng another $2.40 to your EV charge cost puts this comparison at even more of a dead heat.
another thing to consider is that when charging moves from the per minute charge to a KW/h charge, the cost will change radically.
What a great eye opening real world test. Thanks. Clearly EV can't tow effectively yet. By the looks of the battery horizon it will be several years before EV's have capacity for a good work truck. those of us who tow, haul lots of tools or travel 2-400 miles on a routine basis .. like out here in the west need to use our trucks without delays like charging. It would be like changing oil on your truck twice a day. I love the idea of an EV but can't imagine charging every 150 or 200 miles.
What about the time it took to charge? 1 hour as your graphs show at minimum wage is $15 which you could have been spending doing something more productive like driving perhaps.
It would take about 10-15 minutes to refill at a gas station. It would take a minute to plug in and charge then you can sit comfortably in your car and do paperwork, take a nap, or go get something to eat. I drive for work and I personally enjoy charging because I use that as “me time.” While it’s no fun going to the gas station and watching my money go down the drain.
@@masterrpgs I get that. And I am all for EVs but wanted to make sure it is a fair comparison, that's all. I think in the future, with certain changes to gas vs electricity prices and improvements in charging capabilities the pros of EVs will be a lot better and impossible to ignore. Nowadays, they're equal.
@@masterrpgs It does not take 10-15 minutes to fill up at a gas station, it takes like 2-3 minutes. Even when I go to Costco and the lines are jammed pack I am still out in less than 15 minutes. What are you smoking?
He's smoking the same stuff the other idiots are when justifying charging an EV. Go eat or shop while you charge? Do you count that toward the charging cost? Driving out of your way to a charge station? What happens when the spaces are full? The chargers are broken? And now you need to go to the next charge station? Or there is a space but because other people are also charging the charge rate is so slow it takes 2 hours to charge to 80% instead of 1 hour? EVs make the most sense when you can do nearly all of your charging at home, never tow and rarely take road trips.
There’s no way he drives for work and is ok with a long wait to charge. I actually do drive for work and make 600-800 mile trips in 1 day with only one 5 minute stop for fuel. The last thing anyone wants on the way home is waiting even 30 minutes longer to get home. Ev’s at this point are for in town and not towing anything
EVs are great at towing except for range. Towing absolutely abolishes range in an EV. If I needed to tow with an EV, which I don't, I would insist on no less than 600 miles of range with an incredible charging curve as well. Otherwise just for a non-towing EV, 320 miles is plenty for me.
Totally agree with you.!! towing or adding shit like extra bodies, gear, bike rack or ski rack on the roof..just trashes the distance. Great numbers and honestly if we weren't in this ridiculous gas hike, the ICE would have won hands down and by a large margin!!
This made me love my F350 7.3 even more. I don't have anything against EVs (hell, I'd absolutely love to have a Plaid). But my old truck can tow just about anything a lot further than 57 miles. Granted the Rivian wouldn't even be able tell I was trying in a race. I'd probably loose sight of the EVs taillights in a few seconds.
Thanks, but that was a lot of listening to find out the costs are nearly the same, factor in the time value of money waiting for charging makes the EV hardly worth it for the cost.