Finally, someone talking about gender and transgender people who are actually medical experts and someone who is knowledgeable in the field! There's far too many arm chair doctors when it comes to transgender people.
there are plenty of doctors who are critical of transitioning and they are mostly silenced or ridiculed simply for disagreeing. In the end, you will criticize anyone who disagrees with you regardless of their profession.
@@cesarcueto1995I can understand being critical on an issue that isn’t fully researched but there is no other proven alternative for people who suffer from GD and those people will live their lives regardless of how long it takes to come to a complete conclusion on what the best course of action is. People do still need healthcare for such problems.
@@cesarcueto1995 are they silenced because they are critical or silenced because they aren't credible or reputable? If you have questions about heart surgery are you going to ask a chiropractor or a cardiologist? If you have questions about diabetes treatments are you going to ask the guy who lost his license or the guy who actively practices?
I'm a detransitioner, I was struggling with anorexia and body dysmorphia at the time plus undiagnosed autism and bpd. I loved this conversation, thank you for bringing detransition up with no judgement, I feel like it is often misunderstood.
I have so much empathy for many detransitioners... I'm just upset when some of them use their experiences to promote transphobia & insist other people don't have the right to express themselves in a way that feels right for them. It's unfortunate that a vocal minority has hurt so many people - trans & detrans people alike.
@@ZijnShayatanica I feel like this too. Trans and detrans should work together, not against each other. I don't like when other detrans people use their experience to say transition isn't good for anyone, the same goes for trans people, I think many treat detransitioners badly and say that we just are transphobic. I have my experience, I confused my issues with gender dysphoria, that doesn't mean that others don't have it and that transition isn't the right approach for them. Trans and detrans people should coexist, respect each other and work together against stigma
@@sillaresmes I agree... I understand a lot of the trans community feeling defensive & scared, because the world is hostile & the political atmosphere online is even moreso. But... That's no excuse not to listen to someone & hear them out. The only time I'd suggest a trans person not seek out detrans content is if it's becoming a form of self-harm - some of us have used it time to time to try to convince ourselves it isn't valid & continue to suppress. But ultimately... I hope that the hateful environment dies down & we can hear less from the screeching mobs so the rest of us can have a moment of peace. 🙃 I'm really glad you finally figured out what was right for you. That must have been fkn HARD... Because someone who isn't trans going through social transition &/or medical transition would just CAUSE dysphoria! Which I don't wish on anybody, cis or trans.
Regardless of your opinions, accepting unprompted physical violence and bullying is shameful. The necessity of putting a suicide hotline number under the video brings emphasis to the issue as well.
If you have an issue with what people do at home you're a psychopath. Can't blame people for their extreme reactions we don't know the trauma or mental capacity of strangers. That's why we must learn to defend ourselves from threats. Not trying to defend violent reactions on mental or neurological issues it just should be said by someone.
The hotline was put on the video because the topic of suicide was brought up all together, any video that talks about has to have it, it a UA-cam thing not a specific subject thing
You realise that trans people, if not getting murdered the most, then have a chance to commit suicide the most due to never been treated as human, right?
I’m a 30yr old heterosexual male that is proudly masculine - this “issue” of transgender people has never felt like an issue to me at all. I can’t imagine waking up every day in a body that I don’t feel like I belong in, but I can and do have empathy, and enough sense to not let someone else’s sexual identities interfere with my own. These “manly men” all over the world that always say things like “what would our forefathers say about queer/trans people” - brother, they’d be ashamed of you for caring so much about what other grown people do with their private parts.
it's not sexual identities btw. Sexual identities are what you are attracted to aka heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual etc etc. Transgender/transsexual people is about GENDER identity. There is no inherent sexual component (aka to what am I attracted or what is sexually arousing) that is happening during questions of gender identity. But thank you for being supportive of queer people, and understanding that someone else's genitals is none of one's business unless they wanna be in a romantic relationship with this person or they are your doctor and you have medical questions concerning the genitals.
People should have a right to transition. But not with support of government. Not if said person is not of legal age(18 or 21). Surgeries should be reversable(no vasectomy)
@@nurikkulanbaev3628 Do you think every surgery should be reversible? That would defeat the purpose usually, and transgender operations have a way lesser rate of regret than knee surgeries. Are you going to restrict those too?
I mean sure but you are a man. You have an advantage over transmen or transwomen. This nonbinary stuff is dangerous for women. Lgbtq wants people to just rise a hand and say ”I am this” and now they are. A man without treatment and surgery can walk into Female spaces and don’t give af about women feeling uncomfortable IN THEIR SPACES. Like sure If one has operated their whole body they probably aren’t cis predators using the lgbtq law but as I Said how do we know a person That’s a nonbinary biological man wont hurt or prey on women? Cos on the outside you can’t see the diffrence between a nonbinary person and a cis man predators? Men are smart if just putting on a wig makes one able to go into women spaces they will do that to get to women.
Heck, George Washington was most likely bisexual himself lol. And men were more “feminine” in the 1700s than they are now. Women couldn’t even act so cross dressing men was COMMON and NORMAL. Lol.
It’s so refreshing to hear two people talking, pausing asking for clarification and examples before answering. Not shying away or reducing the detail. This is how we should talk to each other.
Yeah, it is kind of easier to start talking to each other when you know the "other side" sees you as a human being and not someone who should disappear because you present differently than the s ex you were assigned at birth. It's kind of hard for people to keep civil and respectful when the other person subscribes to an ideology that you're "unnatural" and therefore shouldn't exist.
Maybe there seems like there is so much nuance because the community is so fearful of asserting objective truths that they refuse to even assign definitions to words. What is the point of even having language if using it doesn't convey meaningful information to another person?
What was cleared up? All I heard was terms without definition cus apparently there’s multiple definitions that the other Doctor couldn’t even explain. This is the medical field people. There needs to be one clear cut definition based on logical facts without the propaganda when it comes to health and wellness, otherwise what’s the point?
Same. Politicians think they are experts when they have a high school dropout level knowledge of sex. I also hate that some general doctors that don't specialise in gender, sex and gender identity talk about this in politics.
@@GeeGeeGemini But that does not mean that any of this isn't true. It is just better to see an actual expert talk about it instead of a politician or a general doctor that doesn't even understand intersex
@@GeeGeeGemini and a lot of politicians, especially in the US are driven be religious doctrine and say things that are purposefully inflammatory to get a bigger platform and get more votes let's remember the american politician that called trans and LGBT folk "imps" and "demons" and wanted to be rid of us while also constantly referring to the bible i wonder where separation of church and state ran off to
As a trans guy myself, these conversations are so important to have, especially on larger platforms such as yours. I agree that a lot of disagreements arise due to misunderstandings surrounding certain terms or language, so the clarification of definitions was a great way to start out! Medical interventions have, quite literally, been a lifesaver for me, so thank you for bringing up these important topics of discussion!
Regardless of where you stand on the issue, nobody should ever have to face bullying and harassment for being gay or being trans. To be honest I don't know any trans people personally, but I have known a lot of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people over the years who have either never told the families or been completely rejected by their families for telling them. I had a family member come out as gay and people treated him with such disgust that he ended it all. I have had more than one bisexual girlfriend in my lifetime where they were terrified of their parents knowing about it. And I have a gay friend who got rejected by his own parents and cut off from his family. It's not right to treat people that way.
I’m so sorry you lost a family member to homophobia. I will say at least as gay people we can choose to hide if we feel we could be in immediate danger. If you are in the process of transitioning, don’t totally “pass”, or at this point in the US even look any type of gender fluidity, you can’t choose to hide from dangerous people. It’s crazy people can have a “stance”, a point of view, or an opinion on basic human rights. We’re all human. End of story.
@@fire_rises Okay. Do you care to elaborate on what you disagree with and why? Otherwise your comment is pointless because it's not like anybody changes their mind about something the moment a faceless person on the internet says "I disagree".
i'm only about 30 minutes in but i really really appreciate dr mike 1. talking about this on such a large platform and 2. really listening to dr turban and asking questions - really promising so far, and i'm glad because it's a little scary to actually click on a video like this because of all the negativity it can spawn
@@stringX90 i don't think so personally - doctor mike did a lot of listening which might make it seem weak but honestly he acknowledged that this is a subject where he needs to learn, so he let doctor turban educate him and asked a lot of questions when he needed to
I wish I could read this like in paragraphs and not from the transcription. I find it hard to sit down and watch these long videos even though I really want to
@@rose_cool4662there are websites that will scrape the UA-cam auto generated (or handwritten if they're present) captions. Google Downsub or views4you.
@@dr_israrkibzai i have a feeling we weren't watching the same video 😆i saw a lot of medical talk, especially with regards to psychology, psychiatry, endocrinology, and mental wellbeing
Dr Mike, please bring a gynae or a doctor with a specialty dealing in menstruation/cycle, etc. to talk about the origin of the terminologies, the misconceptions, how to deal with the pain and PMS, intermenstrual bleeding, ovulation pain and bleeding, science-backed food and hygiene practices that make the period a better experience for women.
Also maybe talk to them about the differences between male and female healthcare and how women tend not to be taken seriously about their pain (IUD insertion as an example)
I know he's already talked in other videos about how heart attacks (for example) present differently in women, but it might be a good thing to bring up as well.
"If the bullying become chronic"... "but if it is acute" is such a nerdy way for Mike to express it. I have the same problem when I use jargon from my field to express everyday things to the amusement of my friends. This made me laugh out loud, and I know bullying is never fun, but this just got to me.
The most frustrating part of being trans that it feels like everyone gets a chance to decide "what to do with you", except you. Politicians, religious people, family, and doctors who don't work with trans people at all, and of course, people who want to get some quick fame by espousing controversy. Everyone has an opinion, and the less they know about what it's like to be trans, the louder they get to be. It's exhausting to be constantly under scrutiny and attack. Even with doctors, we're treated almost like a curiosity than actual people. We really are on our own.
@@Arachdrakon Huh? You completely misunderstood the comment. They never suggested the doctor needs to be trans in order to treat trans people, they said they need to know about trans people, the same way how an oncologist needs to know about cancer and tumors in order to treat it. Also, doctors usually work with patients in order to learn more about the condition in question.
@@Mas-ij3ti You comparing a medical professional to a restaurant and a business shows me that you neither have any understanding or respect for medical professionals.
@@Arachdrakon Where is this even coming from? Depression, while can be debilitating, doesn't necessarily impair your judgement to the point where you are unable to decide what is the best for you. I can assure you that excluding a few rare cases (which you might come under, idk what your experience is like), or crisis circumstances most patients with depression are perfectly capable of understanding the consequences and weighing the benefits of decisions enough to make sound judgements for their best interests. Any therapist/ psychiatrist that infantilises their patients or minimises their agency is not fulfilling the fundamental principles we need to follow as mental health professionals, I can assure you of that. If you disagree with this, please re-read the comment and look this up online, I know the training we undergo. That being said, strawman-ing this person's argument just shows that you have no intention of understanding what this person has to say. They never said anything about doctors having the same illness/experiences as the patients in order to give them essential treatment. While you don't need to have cancer to treat it, if you have no idea what cancer is and spend most of your time gaslighting your patients that their symptoms are in fact not related to cancer and instead demonise them for having said symptoms.... well then you should have your licence revoked. Unfortunately, that rarely happens when you only target marginalised communities who don't have much power within the society. Plenty of doctors carry prejudice towards people, certain life saving procedures or can be just as if not more vulnerable to misinformed propaganda. I have personally seen people lose their lives over this. I've seen enough "doctors" dismiss the effect of mental illness and trauma in their patients that had deadly consequences. Pedestalising doctors will get you nowhere.
I really enjoy the flow and the way Dr. Mike allows his guests to speak but also contributes equally in the conversation. He is a good listener. So many shows like Piers Morgan interrupt and interrogate their guests repeatedly as if they claim to be open minded but really only want their perspectives to be heard and understood. Piers does this with guests he disagrees with.
@@BusinessSkrub Bro do you not know how he treated Alex o connor? Alex is literally one of the most open minded people in youtube and always goes into civilized discussions even with people in the complete opposite of the political spectrum, this includes people like Ben Shapiro, and Jordan Peterson. The whole time, he was completely civilized with those people, and those people were civilized with him. But then came Piers Morgan, when none of this happened. Just turned into some gotcha contest as according to Piers Morgan's will. Alex o connor is just one of the many examples of Piers' "very perfect normal, civil conversations"
Absolutely. Good to see some pushback from Mike, e.g. transwomen in sports, but felt he could've pushed bit more, esp because I feel he disagrees with the doc with a book to sell.
@@nivvy19I love when people only focus on the small part of the video that agrees with their narrative and completely ignore the rest. Very good example of confirmation bias.
were the politician the ones that downgraded the level of the talk, trans woman are persecuted because politics, nothing in science goes against trans people.
1:08:23 - that person was David Reimer, born Bruce Reimer along with his twin Brian. Both of them suffered severe psychological trauma from the abuse inflicted on them from John Money in his useless attempts to force the boys to prove his "gender identity" hypothesis true. As Dr. Turban described, Money was very wrong. Both David and Brian would go on to take their own lives in adulthood. I found to be deeply disrespectful that Dr. Turban would refer to David as "her" and glibly describe the outcome as "bad". Considering that the female gender was not only never accepted by David, but completely rejected, and in light of the subsequent tragic outcome stemming from his abuse, I think this could have been treated with more care.
It's rough when you're treated as a political argument, not even a person, for being trans. Like mate, it's none of your business to question if it doesn't impact you in any way. Glad to see an actual medical expert looking into it. Dr. Mike is awesome.
Okay mate, then don't force other people and reality to adapt to you. Feel absolutely free to wear whatever you want, and feel about yourself however you want, but then also allow other people to react to that how they want. Whether it's acceptance of it, or refusal. Can't act like a victim when you're the one being the aggressor when it comes to the topic.
@@ghostfish771Trans people are killed and abused physically and verbally for being trans. No amount of self victimisation will make the same happen to cisgender people, which seems like something you all want considering the way you ACT persecuted. To call trans people the aggressors would be laughable if it wasn't so tone-deaf and far from the truth.
@@ghostfish771In order to function as a society, respect must be given to people and how they define their lives. You wouldn't just go around deliberately calling married people by their maiden names or using nicknames someone does not like unless you are trying to hurt them. This level of acceptance is the basic level of respect needed to interact with others as a member of society and denying this to trans people shows that you do not believe they are 'free' to exist within society. Being denied this basic level of respect does in fact make someone a victim and it is not aggressive to suggest that you refer to someone how they would like to be referred to. EDIT: Corrected spelling mistake 'with' to 'within'.
@@ghostfish771 The issue is that social interactions should change over time with our understanding of mental health, medicine, and research. Yes you can ignore and "not believe in" extra care for people on the spectrum or for people who have physical disabilities, but that does not mean that their issues disappear. If we all still kept the same beliefs from even 20 years ago on topics like depression, suicide, or anxiety, we wouldn't have made it through the pandemic and the social isolation coming with it. Listen to doctors, listen to research, and be a responsible and respectful person who can keep themselves informed without bullying people when they are just trying to exist, man. Be better. We all could use it. Also, how was this person an "aggressor" in the comment section? Did they mention you? You see, you quite literally became the very type of person you critiqued in your comment.
@@robbu2445Pretending men are women is not 'showing them respect'; it's pandering to their dellusional fantasy. What we should ALL respect is reality. Gender identity ideology is not scientific. It's a religious concept that you're free to believe in. But since 'respect' is so important to you, YOU should have respect for others and respect the fact that not everyone shares your beliefs. Forcing others to participate in your belief system is deeply disrespectful. Forcing everyone to pretend you're male when you're female is disrespectful. Forcing women and girls to tolerate men and boys invading their spaces and sports is disgustingly disrespectful.
Don't think I've seen anyone in the online space tow the line between compassion and constructive inquiry/healthy scepticism as well as Dr. Mike did right here. It's rare to find someone who's an excellent interviewer, but rarer still someone that isn't dogmatic. Already had massive respect for him, but man that's difficult to do with a topic as divisive as this one. Well done.
In regards to John Money and the twin boys that he was working with they are from my hometown and they both had extremely bad outcomes as John Money did way more than just change the ones gender but forced them to do horrendous things to each other as well. He is absolutely disgusting and should have went to prison for the things he did but they are all deceased now.
It's all good though he helped popularize the blank slate theory of gender and that we have an internal sense of gender identity! Well worth those children's suffering. Don't you think?
@@zarbins He popularized that we DONT have an internal sense of gender identity; that was his theory. That it was nurture. We now know (as Dr Turban explained) that people DO know what gender they are - hence the transcendent sense of gender Dr Turban keeps referring to. This Debunks Money s theory. The only people still claiming the 'nurture' theory is the anti-trans campaigners (such as rapid onset gender dysphoria through social contagion - that relies on Money's theory of gender being nurtured through society).
@@zarbins Money showed that people had an innate sense of gender identity and they can't force people to be something they're not identifying as: he induced dysphoria in people. His research proved the danger and disgusting effects of maintaining and promoting gender dysphoria. Trans people go through that process, just from assigned sex rather than an external gender assignment. It actually shows that allowing an individual to self express rather than have gender imposed on them is important - especially for mutilated intersex children. A trans man for example grows up AFAB, then is socially imposed on by others with female stereotypes, creating a disconnect between innate sense of gender versus nurtured social roles. This is exactly what the cis boys went through in Money's study. What Money put the boys through is what people put trans kids through when they deny them self expression.
Regarding the connection between gender dysphoria and autism: Dr. Turban approaches the subject with a healthy dose of skepticism here (which I think is always good in science), but there are some interesting findings from those studies that he doesn't touch on in this episode. If anyone is still curious about that particular subject, Dr. K from Healthy Gamers (one of Mike's previous guests) has a great video called "Are Autism and Gender Identity Connected?" where he looks at these studies in more detail, and explores some of the theories as to why autism and gender dysphoria might co-occur. It was a very informative watch and I highly recommend it.
It happens because autism often comes with the need to put things in nice boxes. To have no ambiguity. This makes it easy to manipulate them into this ideology.
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to Rather the opposite as someone who works with people with people with autism, adhd, dyslexia etc often highly intelligent and a LOT more doctorat’s in my experiance than the general population rather they tend to be a lot less fixed on male or female or do not feel that they belong to their assigned gender at birth and that is when you talk to them from how have you felt from as far as you can remember also if anything what has negativly effected them is the expectation of feeling a standard way as you describe it in ” nice boxes” basically why they are so good those who have I Q to do it is because they think OUTSIDE established boxes.
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to You clearly don't know what Autism is. Autism by itself is described as a condition where simply put, the person is OUTSIDE the box. Speaking this being Autistic myself. Don't speak on our behalf without knowing us first and understanding us and the contrition.
I knew I was bisexual in middle school. But when I told a close friend and she told others who started publicly asking me in front of crowds of people when I barely understood it myself, it lead to a lot of denial and shame surrounding those feelings because I knew I’d be looked at as weird or made fun of for it. Still to this day I struggle with these feelings because of this experience.
Thank you for posting this comment!! This happened to me when I was in school, I was very confident and dressings very flamboyantly. And I told a few people I thought I could trust and then would constantly get publicly confronted about. And this happened a few months after I had the realization. Now all my clothes are very plain and I have become someone who struggles to accept myself and it makes it hard to connect with other queer people. (Edit) I know clothes don’t matter but that’s how I would express myself and it took that part of me away and I developed a lot of depression and anxiety and body dysmorphia because I didn’t look like the typical male.
@@joshuakerola6864 it's very necessary to know what your friend's ideologies are before telling them about yourself. some of these people will forget everything you've done for them and try to actively ruin your life just because you're queer.
I love how Dr.Mike just sit there listen to the guest and then say his opinion when it necessary. Have open conversation about these things are very hard to do.
I really respect how good you were in this conversation, Mike. You allowed the guest to speak, pushed back where appropriate, asked great probing questions, you weren't offensive and you intellegently, yet compasionately, stuck with the data.
Such an important conversation, and I appreciate Doctor Mike not only having Dr. Turban on, but also 1.) Asking clarifying questions and not just smiling and nodding, and B.) Not asking leading questions. Each question asked felt extremely thoughtful not just of the subject at hand between two experts, but also to help layman listeners better understand gender identity in a way that maybe we didn't before. Really good and important episode!
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on UA-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
Hopefully Dr. Mike will get other medical doctors, psychiatrists, and psychologists in this field that aren't as controversial and biased as Jack Turban.
@@schizzzzz8912 I agree with him in part and my point is that there are other Doctors and Psychiatrists in this field that don't fully endorse Jack's Turban's views . I hope Dr. Mike can include these voices in this important discussion as well.
@@trip7002 Ikr people don't even know the definition of propaganda anymore🥲 ironically a result of the long standing tradition of the US government basing its entire education system on propaganda
He is kinda just giving a platform for the guy to speak, no questions being asked by him to even slightly challenge his fellow doctors view points. A lot of the feelings speech or saying we don't know just puts it all in a Grey area for me personally.
@@ArchxKn1ght You are absolutely delusional he is absolutely playing devils advocate like he does with all of his guests. You probably just want to watch podcast where people bash trans people almost certainly because you are just a bigot.
As a scientist I can say, that even if we do trust our fellow scientists with not ascribing negativity to various technical terms, we still do have a responsibility to society to communicate effectively beyond the purely technical aspects of our work. On one hand we can't do much if someone delves into our research, published for scientists, without the prerequisite training and misunderstands it... but at the very least we can choose our words carefully in public fora.
Especially for topics as divisive and politically charged. And especially when it could lead to even more danger to these people who are already having to live in fear every day.
I tried to do a research project in college on trans treatment outcomes and was dissuaded by my professor advisor that they didn’t believe that would be in the best interest of the university. Chilling effect.
@@jonathanstone4878it’s a very delicate subject and if handled poorly can cause a massive backlash. With that said, I think the University instead should’ve been keen to inform you about the risks and consequences of doing it poorly instead of convincing you to not do it. But I digress. Sounds kind of scary to think about important subjects being suppressed in society.
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on UA-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
@@FoxiestLia They did explain, off the record later. They were afraid of drawing negative attention. Aka "Chilling Effect". Controversy in Uni can lead to a loss of funding. My paper and proposal won out over hundreds of applicants and earned me an award. The institutional review board asked me to resubmit. I went with anorexia instead. It was enough to graduate, but I would have liked a higher status pub.
HUGE respect towards you two for talking about this topic and making information like this more easily available for people, and not just that but also talking about it so respectfully, too. Asking questions when you don't fully understand, making sure you use correct terminology, and really not masking anything or downplaying anything. As a member of the trans community, you are now my favorite online doctors.
about using the “correct” terminology, why am i not allowed to want to be called biological over cisgender? it feels like my beliefs are being ignored and disrespected
@@StankyTheKlown yea, these sad excuses for humanity don't have more identity than what they are. probably because they never work and study and don't have any ambitions in life beyond simple pleasure... which is even a consciousness level lesser than animals which have a more serious task of surviving and keeping up their health.
Dr Mike I'm really enjoying these longer form podcast episodes. It's so much more meaningful and informative delving into the subject over a 2-3 hour episode rather than 30 mins. I hope you keep this format going!
@@LuckyPigeon1111there are good sides to both - for nuanced health topics i prefer the long formats where there is more information provided and more discussions had vs a shorter summarized video
What is going on culturally when we're young absolutely impacts how we think about this stuff. For example, my mother is what I would call gender fluid, but that wasn't something that was well known when she was growing up. She was growing up in the 70s, after the publication of the book Sybil, when MPD/DID was the pop psychology topic of the era. When I was a kid she described herself as having "multiple personalities, and not all of them are women." She does not experience a loss of awareness or dissociation when these "different personalities" come forward, however. She does not have DID, this was just the language that was available to her explain her experience. Since she didn't grow up thinking about her gender identity in the terms we use now, and since many times she feels more like a woman than not, she still self identifies as a cis woman and uses she/her pronouns. This is absolutely in line with what Dr. Turban says about how the older generations conceive of the terms "trans" and "cis."
That's super cool! As a genuine comment/question, are you aware there's other ways of having "different personalities" (or "plurality" or "multiplicity") that isn't DID? DID is just a diagnostic label from a medical guidebook, but the experience of being many people is probably super old. As old as humankind. :)
@@inix2761 in a vague way, I am, but I am definitely not well informed about it. I was just trying to communicate my story as best I could, I didn’t mean to dismiss other variations of the human condition :)
@@scalylayde8751 Oh, that's not what I meant when I was bringing it up! It was more like "maybe that's something to ask your mom about and how she feels about it now?" Because to me, it sounds like your mom is plural, by how she discussed it, and I wondered if it would be fulfilling or exciting or give her some peace of mind to know she's not the only person in the world who has the same or similar experiences as her.
This reminds me kind of of my own background a bit. I’m 29 and I spent my first few years abroad with my family. Although I did pick up the language around me (French) during that time okay-ish, my parents and most of my closest friend always spoke Swedish to me during those years (we were in Luxembourg which has a very international population due to its many European Union institutions). During those years, I was a very “tomboyish” kid (or, more accurately, I didn’t really “think” about gender expression at all, though I leaned more towards “boyish” things like superheroes and action stuff or even - gasp - the uniquely masculine color palette of BLUES rather than PINKS). Because my family was in such a comfortable position financially, my mom could stay at home with me all the time, so I didn’t really “mix” with other children (except those who were my friends) until we moved back to Sweden and I had to go to pre-K with other kids for like six months, so whenever I mixed with kids other than my friends I never really cared about what they were saying about me. Then we moved back to Sweden and I had to hang out with kids whose language I understood. Literally after the first day when my mom picked me up she noticed I was sad and asked why and I replied “Because [some other dumb ass child] told me I can never be a farmer because I’m a girl”. ?????? We were like FIVE?
Wpath, that Jack Turban keeps making false claims about thinks that ppl with "multiple personalities" (it's actually a popular pseudoscience that we got lots of teen girls identifying with in the past, sound familiar?), can be transitioned even if none of the genders of the "alters" match up. Let that sink in.
I want to throw something out there as a cis woman: I have PCOS and it interfered with my breast development. I experienced a lot of shame and what I think is gender dysphoria because of it. I got a breast lift and reduction a few days after I turned 17, and I haven't thought about my breasts since. It completely alleviated the feeling of not being a woman. Gender affirming care isn't just for trans people. Any one of us might need it. They don't just consider this as an option for trans adolescents. Re: trans people in sports, he didn't get into this, but trans women who've been on HRT for more than a year tend to have cardiovascular function, lung capacity, and muscle function in line with cis women. Lia Thomas is a good example of this, actually. We can see that she did well in men's swimming, then declined when she started HRT, and then performed at the same level once she switched to women's swimming (meaning she placed the same in women's swimming that she had in men's swimming, not that her times were on par with that of men or her pre-transition times). Lia Thomas won competitions, but she also came in second, third, fourth etc. In the competition that sparked all the controversy, cis women broke records (Kate Douglass out-performed everyone by a mile), and Lia Thomas broke no records. Something else worthy of consideration is that high school, middle school, and even rec-league sports are taken SUPER seriously in American culture. But the reality is a high school track team does not have the same stakes as the olympic games. The vast majority of people playing sports in their youth will never be olympians or play professional sports.
Do you have any studies that confirm what you're saying regarding lung capacity? It is often linked to lung size and the development of the ribcage, which do not change after hormone therapy. And your argument does not seem to take into account bone structure, shoulder width, ligament and tendon strength, overall size, leg length, etc.
@@superette. There's one called "Cardiopulmonary Exercise Testing in Transgender and Gender-Diverse Patients" that was published in 2024. There are a few observational studies of trans athletes. The sample sizes are small (sometimes only one person), but they consistently show the same finding. Samantha Luxe has a video breaking some of those down. As is said in the podcast, trans people are less likely to be athletes in the first place, which is a barrier for research. You need to have an athlete willing to undergo testing prior to transition and tailor their gender affirming treatment to the limitations of the study, which raises a lot of ethics issues. Also, people weren't very interested in this question until it became controversial, so we're seeing more research now. That said, some of the research in sports medicine is being funded by anti-trans athletic organization, which is muddying things up a bit. Additionally, it's hard to factor in genetics unless we test all the cisgender family members of a person, too. But once you do that, you have to account for age, athletic training, etc. If the trans person is an athlete, but no one else in the family is, we can't directly compare and same for vice versa. You might note the study I cited is concerned with health and whether doctors should use sex assigned at birth to monitor heart and lung function. It's not worried about transgender athletes. We're more likely to see research like this because it's answering a medical question related to care, not tackling a political question.
@@rileyallen489 aerobic capacity And lung capacity are not the same and this was tested on 16 people. I think more studies are needed and other elements defenitly matter too (bone structure, height, ligaments,..)
@@superette. I don't disagree that more and better studies are needed. However, listening to trans people on the subject, I've learned that the community is quite skeptical of study participation, especially in the worsening of the political climate. But we always have to ask ourselves what we're studying and why. Are we studying this to better inform the ongoing care of trans people or settle a manufactured political issue? If a proposal for a study is the latter, it's unlikely to be proposed by any reputable institution, let alone secure funding or pass an ethics board. As I said initially, our observations are promising for trans athletes, though not applicable to every sport. The best data we have is limited to cardio-intensive activities. But at the end of the day, the sports question is more pressing to conservatives with an agenda, not the health of the trans community as a whole.
I want to thank your editor for taking the time and investing in really good subtitles. I listened while cooking, and sometimes could not hear well over the sound of the fan. These subtitles are so clear! Thank you. Very much.
Dear Dr. Mike I mean you truely are an astute and perceptive podcaster. The way you bring nuance to any topic is just amazing. Till now I had only seen this topic being discussed politically at large. Not so much medically unless it's gender affirming surgeries or trauma. I didn't know the gender discussion could have so much depth. So much support to you 💪
If you're interested to explore the many facets of gender more, especially on a philosophical standpoint (but still considering science) I highly recommend watching Contrapoints or DemonMama videos. I think the both of them bring a lot of interesting points about gender and I think they tend to be very fair and considerate of how misogyny and toxic masculinity play into gender presentation and the trans community.
Their point was that pathologising leads to stigma. It's great to be precise as medical experts. But as Dr. Mike said, that language is then used colloquially, becoming imprecise. For example, as they mentioned in this discussion, people calling transgender people mentally ill.
@@TheNashBurgerstigma will always exist but pathologizing is important for diagnosis. Everything has stigma, you just gotta learn to live with it. At the end of the day there are harder challenges than stigma. I don’t think making things inaccurate by not pathologizing will end the stigma. It’s up to the people to advocate against it. And nobody is stigmatizing the lgbt community because of a psychology book, most people don’t know what the dsm is. It’s the bad apples in the lgbt community that’s making people stigmatize them. If you actually want to change stigma then go address those bad apples in the community not by de pathologizing.
@@Lamle54243 "And nobody is stigmatizing the lgbt community because of a psychology book" Outright false. One of the contributors to the dsm is one of the most cited people by people stigmatizing trans people.
@@Lamle54243 did you even watch the interview? Stigma often ties itself in with gender dysphoria causing more issues. Addressing the "bad apples" has historically, done nothing.
This is the kind of discussion I love to see. Polite, knowledgeable, informed, rational and empathetic. I learned a lot and even identified some of my own biases. Thank you for this video.
A lot of people are used to “normal” being connotatively linked to good and being outside of normal as inherently bad. Some kids shows from my childhood had bullies who would pick on kids who were kinda quirky and were told they weren’t normal in a clearly negative tone. Whenever a lot of people who think homosexuality is a sin say that gay people aren’t normal, it is very evident that that is meant in a negative tone. Normal is often a loaded word whenever we start talking about people, and that’s why people who work all sorts of different people try to avoid its use.
@@NotSoCivilEngineerI was also coming in to say that. In a purely academic sense norms or averages are fine. In a social sense norms are often divisive. You aren't like us leading to stigmas and ostracization. It is fine as far as it goes generally but definitely have to pay attention to the tone and context.
Being normal is really rare. In individual parts of an identity (such as gender identity) most people when identify with a primary group. But because identity is such a large swath of topics being abnormal in a certain way is very common. Thus people shouldn't feel shame for being different, hints why pointing out normalities problems is important.
Yeah, that needed to be addressed a bit more. Being normal implies anything else is abnormal, hence wrong. Being **ordinary** removes the stigma. "Ordinarily, people identify with the gender their bio sex indicates, and are opposite-sex attracted, but sometimes, people are not in those categories." That sounds better than, "Normal people identify as their bio sex, and like the opposite sex. Abnormal people don't." I'd rather be "extraordinary," versus "abnormal."
My opinion as a trans man is that gender dysphoria should be considered a pathology. This is an unusual thing to experience that requires treatment. If it wasn't then people like me would either be biologically the sex that we try to appear as or would be fine with being seen as the gender that usually goes with our biological sex.
I mean in order to get the right gender affirming care it has to be seen as a pathology but it’s more nuanced than that because not all trans people will experience gender dysphoria and there are ranges and levels to gender dysphoria.
Guys... an opinion is an opinion. Gender dysphoria might already be seen as a pathology, and this guy just agrees or something. An opinion doesn't always have to be a different one. 🤦♂️
I felt this psychiatrist wanted to say more but stopped himself in fear that he would be seen negatively by his patients or trans community. Instead of speaking medically, I feel he was catering to people's feelings.
@@PashaHajman Okey I see. I personally did have a few issues with the interview, but most comes from the fact that this topic is so loaded people arent really free to talk anymore. Everyone has to be incredibly carefull which limits a good discussion. This goes both ways, both sides get attacked very fast and easily. I think he awnsered most stuff really good, but its very noticable that he is very carefull through out thhe interviewed. Most obvious was the part about sports. While what he says is mostly true, he really didnt want to touch the problems that certainly exist there. But I dont think its was because he wouldnt agree or wants to push something, it really seemed just too hot of a topic.
@@PashaHajman I think it shows for me. I aggree mostly but would hhave two questions. Do you think its possible that for example puberty blockers didnt get touch to deeply for the sake of simplicity? In education it can be really difficult to choose the right level of complexity. Making that decision on the spot is even more difficult. He might saw more value in what said than what you expected. Im very confident that when you go to a doctor whho actually prescribes these meds they will talk and inform you about everything. In case of detransitioners I think he jumped the opportunity to say something that I have never heard before. I dont have an opinion on it yet, Im still thinking about it. He is essentially challenging the numbers, by looking at them in a more complex way. "not everyone who stops medication is detransitiong" but in statistics they are listed as that. The other thing is that I think this is soooo incredibly individual. It differs from person to person, where they live and even in what decade they transitioned. There are detransioners who openly say they have lied to their doctors to get what they want. Or they thought this is what is expected of them. 20 years ago alot of trans people went for surgery whitout actually wanting it. Because if they openly said they dont want it they might not get any other treatment they wanted or needed. PS: Im from europe too, so the USA and england is a bit difficult for me. I dont even understand thheir political system.
Dr. Mike did an amaaazing job at being open minded while still making hard questions. I also love how he mostly asked questions instead of affirming stuff. I also see a strong bias on the other side tho. Where Dr Mike askes a question and the question was kinda avoided... but in general was very interesting
@@stringX90asking the same, at the end talking about sport start calling tran woman man, is like wtf!, and trying to legitimise the Cas review that was politically mandated, and didn’t include the most relevant research on the issue.
@@tilly704 but trans women are a category of men. By the definition of women, we cannot say trans women are categories of women so him referring to trans women as men, was probably to help him get his point across and be clear on who he's talking about.
This video was extremely important for me. For someone who supports trans people to be who they are, cuz at the end of the day it doesn’t impact me, but I have always been uncomfortable with the topic because of how society treats it. I’m an engineer and scientist by trade so I have always struggled finding resources to help me better understand all of this from a CIVIL, OBJECTIVE CONVERSATION. Thanks for doing this Dr Mike.
@@nikobellic570 by that logic, suicidal people biologically feeling like they want to kill themselves should go kill themselves, because their feelings shouldn't take precedence over their biology, what kind of logic is that?
@@parkourchinx7978 aside from that, we could relate gender to biology, neurology specifically, and trans people's brain seem to share qualities with the gender they identify with. So like, hey, even biologically speaking being trans is valid.
As a religious teenager, this video has been more than eye-opening. I truly wish some of my friends who are going through or have gone through this would explain it like y'all have. I am an open-minded man who believes in a higher power, but also a choice. We were given free will for a reason. Thank you for this. I hope more people find this and are open to change as I am!
True. We aren't the ones who are supposed to judge those who decide not to live through God's commands and moral principles. People have the freedom to choose whether they want to or not. And although we do have an obligation to warn people about the consequences of their choices, we should respect them either way.
@@darkaquatus and also I believe that trans people do live through god's command but that is a freedom of opinion, it's okay if you dont think so, to be honest I dont really care, but I do care when peoeple vote so that I dont have the right to live like I want to, the way that I am happy. If it doesn't activly harm others than why make it illegal?
if you would read the bible in depth, free will does not exist. its predestination which means its not puppeteer strings attached. God predestined before time, which is why you feel like you have control in the moment but he knows every move you make before you make it.
@@darkaquatus And yet, there you are judging. How do you know this is not God's command? Do you know His every thought? Did He put you in command to judge all of His creations? Have you read the Bible? There is nothing in it that addresses gender identity. You do not have an obligation, moral or otherwise, to "warn" people, which is really translation for "you must always agree with me because I am right and you are not." Listen to all of this video. This is exactly what Dr Turban was addressing in the segment of external conflicts from other people. People do not have any rights to interfere in other people's lives and make it Hell for them to be happy.
@@firstname7470 I'm not sure why you're making this political, because I never mentioned any of that. sambored9387 did the exact same thing, which is weird to me. There's more to life than politics, you know? As a Christian who's not supposed to be of this world you should know this. Anyway, I'm not sure what you're accusing me of. I am not judging anyone. I am judging certain actions, though. Again, this is a core Christian principle. You must be aware of this. So why aren't you instead being specific? What do you believe to be part of "God's command", which you believe I disagree with?
It’s weird how they say we’re getting quick free irreversible treatment or something when I literally can’t get my hands on hormones and I’m almost through with puberty
Might be a blessing... I have not fully realized who I was until I was at least 32. And I'm still developing, accepting a lot unchangeable things about myself as I go.
You don’t need hormones to feel normal. You need to accept yourself to feel normal. Don’t become another cash cow for big pharma. You’re fine the way you are.
@@FemboyKaiSakuyeah I agree. Most people are reasonable and that’s what’ll show early on. Unreasonable outrage will probably surface later but hopefully doesn’t gain any traction
@@FemboyKaiSakuNo but like honestly tho. Like, in the beginning it will be level-headed respectful conversations. But as soon as just one transphobe shares/comments without actually watching the video, chaos will break loose. (Trans pride btw 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈)
Just make sure you use transphobe for rhose who hate them specifically for being trans, and not those who are disgusted, or disagree with their choices. @mxstrikk
Confession: Sometimes, I watch episodes of _The Checkup_ at 1.5x or even 2x speed. I watched this one in spurts over four days at regular speed because the topic is so important. I appreciate you taking the time to cover such a complex topic. ❤
Love that this is an actual calm and collected discussion about this. Its very refreshing to hear this from two intelligent and compassionate individuals❤
One thing that's so important, especially when you're involved in activism, is to seek out information which disconfirms your beliefs. When you're passionate about a subject, you're much more likely to have blind spots like confirmation bias and in-group bias. You may actively cherry-pick data which supports your beliefs and criticize data which doesn't. Science is a valuable tool, but as history shows it can easily be misused by people who want to make up their own truths (e.g. Social Darwinism, Lysenkoism). And for those who are concerned, Doctor Mike does ask some challenging questions to the interviewee in this podcast. 🙌
Activists will never do this because they know they will find so much counter info that utterly disproves their 'beliefs'. They have found a wonderful way to express their personal desire/need to be antagonistic, and will NEVER stop because it empowers them.
Thank you for this, Dr. Mike. I’m a pre-medical student trying to navigate these issues in university, and I’ve been struggling about how to navigate social/political correctness with science and what I understand. It’s great to watch you, a doctor, tackle this problem directly. Thank you.
Hi! I'm a trans pre-medical student and I understand that navigating these issues can be a little precarious as an outsider. The best pieces of advice I can give are to read (there are lots of wonderful articles on pubmed on the science/medicine of gender identity) and to *try* talk to trans people. We are an unfathomably diverse community and our stories are as complex as the human experience itself. Be curious, open minded, and don't be afraid to ask questions (within reason) a lot of us love to talk about how we navigate gender.
@@JaneyDoe-gx2vb You're just wrong. Your feelings bias you, even in hard science. Stop with this bullshit. To VictoriaDonerty - If you're really curious about trans people from a learning perspective (which the majority of us are willing to engage with in good-faith conversations) you shouldn't ever be concerned with asking trans people questions to try to understand. Most of us do experience people just trying to berate and hate us so we might be cautious at first. Just as Cyclea stated. Ask us! Don't infer for us!
Read the best quality evidence. This unfortunately excludes everything Turban has ever written. However, if you look at the data which he manipulates to his own conclusions you'll quickly see for example most girls identify as trans due to pubertal difficulties, most males are adults and the old standard of young gay boys is now third. Read the systematic reviews of evidence (Cass Review, Finland, Sweden etc.) and the longitudinal studies. Read both the absolute madness that is Wpath direct from them (eunuchs, non-verbal autistic child transition, non-binary experiments, transitioning ppl with "alters" with multiple genders) and the Wpath files where everything they say publicly is rubbish.
I think what got missed in the comparison between fraternal and identical twins vs siblings and identical twins. The comparison using fraternal twins allows for the sharing of the womb at the same time. In the case that some incidence of GID or Gender Dysphoria might be affected by hormonal conditions in the womb rather than genetically predisposed, this might make the twin comparisons more definitive than just comparisons of siblings.
It also means that the parent's parenting methods are likely to be more similar between both kids, since they have the same knowledge for both kids at the same age. Whereas if one kid is (for example) three years older, perspective and knowledge and life factors will mean parenting is more different between children (ofc, parenting can still be different between twins, but there are less factors acting on it)
That would maybe be a control for “nature vs nurture”. But, given my own history, I know that I hid being trans from my parents because of the vitriol my father expressed about “freaks”. I don’t believe that a parent can influence being trans, but they can definitely influence whether or not you can trust them with knowing you are trans.
Something I never hear about is adoption studies. If people are raised by someone they're not related to how does that change outcome chances? It seems like scientists are so quick to say that something must have a genetic component because it runs in families. Well genes run in families, but so do learned behaviors, especially with shared environments!
I think this is a good point to consider! I remember reading that youngest children are more likely to be queer because of hormone washes in the womb, or at least it was a theory, but I'm not sure what the current science says on that. My take was that this is supposed to measure genetics vs early life conditioning. People have the same question about turning out gay: is it nature or nurture? Well, twins live almost the same lives day by day since they're the same age, bunk together and will go almost everywhere together for their earliest years. For other kinds of siblings, age difference and pecking order play a huge role in difference in upbringing. The only additional thing I'd account for is male/female fraternal twins because they certainly will be treated differently by their parents even during those early years
I am a trans teen living in sf and i gasped when i saw Dr. mike talking to Dr. turban, MY psychiatrist! I love Dr. Mike and it means so much for him to use his platform to help others learn (and learn himself) about what is largley misunderstood.
That’s awesome! Stanford medical faculty like Turban are rock stars! Question: UCSF is closer for you. Does that place not have the same level of expertise/care for trans issues?
Its because the theme of the video is a generally "pro trans" outlook. If it were promotijg anti trans stuff then trans people and supporters would just skip it while anti trans people would be likely to leave comments because they agree Vice versa is true too so since it's "pro trans" then anti trans people are more likely to skip it and then pro trans people are more likely to comment since they agree
@@cubsfanman-nx6pg By that you mean, if it was unbiased and objective it would be considered anti-trans, but because it is pro-trans the hate mob hasn't come to rip it to shreds.
@@PuzzlesocksAre you good blud? All they said was that people who agree with the video stuck around, and people who don't didn't. It's literally not more deep than that. People like to stick to places where their opinions are accepted. Not rocket science.
@@doe4003 From my experience, people tend to comment more about things they disagree with, especially those of a leftist persuasion. Also let's be real, a vast majority of the disagreement has been automatically deleted by UA-cam, especially concerning this topic.
Omg Bruce and Bryan Reimer. John Money was a doctor in my city. That family went through so much. Both of the twins have died by suicide. That whole thing was so fucked.
when talking about sports; There's always a big focus on trans women, when - because of these new discriminatory laws - many trans men are now forced to compete with cis women, even after/during their transition, sparking a whole new amount of controversy because they are at that point actively taking testosterone.
Trans need to create their own sports category as women and physically disabled did. There was a swimming competition created for trans swimmers and no one entered. Hmmmm
Yea, I hated that part of the conversation. The problem is trans women participating with other women. I've never heard a debate about weather trans women should compete with Men. Its a women's issue, not just a trans issue. I'm glad that doctor Mike pointed out that with all the empathy towards trans women, we also need to have empathy towards women.
@@lexaharpell5823how many of us do you think there are?? And of that population, how many of us play sports? There just isn’t enough trans people out there to create our own category.
I think it's just something that is so difficult for people who don't experience it to even imagine it, let alone relate to the experience. So with alot of stuff like that, people just tend to write it off as hoopla and conjure up a motive in their head.
I often tell people it's basically like being left handed. I don't know why I'm left handed, and I've tried writing with my right hand and just can't. It's not something I chose, it's just how it is.
If someone thinks they are fat despite being 90lbs, it's the same thing. Of course you write it off and tell the person they are insane and to get help
I would love to see Jamie Raines join the conversation. He is a trangender man with a phd in psychology. His thesis was on being trangender and he just came out with a book "the t in lgbt".
9:40 so like hear me out, wouldn't this mean that we put waaaay too much stock into what culture has to say about our identities? Like maybe we end up putting ourselves even further in a box instead of becoming more free? Edit: Separately, my concern with kids is whether puberty blockers are unhealthy for them. Bone density being a big one, but are there any other issues? Or is it not as bad as I understood it to be? I know that estrogen/testosterone are super important for brain development as well. Does it affect that? Also, is there therapy to help people accept both their body and their gender identity at the same time? Just for health concerns, I know a that it can cause serious health issues to have physical conversion therapy. Aaaaalso, if anyone has been trying to decide if therapy is a thing they should do, do it. I did exposure therapy for OCD and it changed my life. Definitely recommend. Don't be afraid to seek help if you need it, even if you think you aren't worthy/ready/needy of it.
I liked what Dr. Mike said about identity and putting less stock into it. I thought it was interesting g that Jack seemed to dismiss it a little bit. My first thought was that it was because without over identifying ourselves with abstract or cultural norms, there isnt much to stand by, except the potential mental health issues that people face with how their body looks. Our society puts so much stock into identity.. it doesn't seem helpful all the time.
On a base level men are still men. Women are still women. Those roles have been changing over the decades to think biology has no play in societal roles or in general is just crazy. We are more freer now than we were 100 plus years ago. That's just a fact. How much freer does it need to be? This is clearly people that are not able mentally to accepting their biology society will not bend to more than two, two genders cuz that's what our whole. Human civilization was built from. Variation in roles can happen and it has.
@@BananaRama31 I totally agree, and the degree to which it is currently affecting vulnerable people is astonishing. Look in the trans subreddits and people are often discussing terrible issues with their medicalization and surgery, when instead they could have obtained better mental health care before making some of these decisions.
I don't understand why,but he avoided a lot of questions and kept saying things are "complicated" or "you should read my book". I don't wanna say he's not an expert,but with all due respect he doesn't sound like he knows much about anything. I was expecting answers but all I got was anecdotes and examples,occasionally he'd bring up research but nothing more. Weird responses, I really cared about this topic.
I found this to be a very helpful and thorough conversation- something that I find to be rare these days. It coincided with a visit of my niece who is transgender and who recently graduated from high school. She has been blessed with two very supportive parents. I can’t imagine how transgender people without supportive families navigate their respective journeys. I intend to listen through a second time and read Dr Turban’s book as well.
Affirming a mentally ill person’s delusions isn’t compassionate or loving. Your nephew is now a permanent patient who is worth several millions of dollars to Pharma, therapists, and doctors. He’s also likely sterile, has an increased risk for cancer and osteoporosis, and can never go back if there’s regret one day when this fad goes away.
Hey cool. I count as a detransitioner now. I lost my Medicaid because I had a job that offered health insurance what I didn't know is the health insurance was going to cost me $1,200 a month which meant I couldn't afford anything. Couldn't afford to go to doctors couldn't afford prescriptions. And because I listened to the medical establishment and started getting my hormones from legitimate sources instead of some random person in Ukraine I ran out of supply. I've been off hormones for over a year now it's awful I hate myself I hate my life and I want to die. I've watched my body slowly remasculinized and I'm losing hair.
I’m so sorry that’s your experience. It’s sad how medical care is considered a for profit business in America and that insurance alone can be so expensive that people can’t even afford to use it.
That’s sad I get it but there are people who can’t afford insulin, or other medications who are life saving. The U.S medical system is messed up, but many countries do not even insure people who are trans, bc they don’t consider it as medically necessary. What I mean by that are the medications and medical interventions needed. Without them you will not die just transition back to your original gender. I feel sorry for you and understand that these things can be costly but that’s the thing for most life saving medications they are costly.
@@Mochiii26 I know you are trying to be compassionate, but for many people these medications are life-saving. Suicide rates among trans folks unable to obtain treatment are disproportionately high. If you think that they can overcome that simply by focussing on how other countries have worse healthcare systems or other people have more dire need of treatment I’m afraid you are mistaken.
Thank you for engaging in this topic at such length. ❤ We need people like you doing this in order to restore our ability to have national and international conversations. You do a great job of not only asking questions for your benefit but also representing questions from the larger audience. Dr . Mike you’re using your platform for good. Please know it’s appreciated ❤
I’m a transgender guy and honestly this was such a refreshing conversation to listen to. When I was a teenager I had a strong hate for my body because it didn’t aline with how I felt, recently it does not affect me as much. The first ten minutes I was holding my breath because I’m so used to this topic dissolving into a screaming match, or feeling demonized. But slowly the further on the conversation went the more I could breathe. It was so nice to listen to a nuanced topic actually be talked about with nuance.
37:36 mental health provider here: a combination of therapeutic approaches is almost always best. Specifically CBT with radical acceptance, so the fear is not irrational if it actually happened. It’s the anticipatory anxiety that’s irrational and so that is what you can challenge. You have to accept that anxiety is necessary to protect us, and to understand in your body when anxiety feels like fear that’s needed and when it doesn’t. But that is a process that takes time and talk therapy that a lot of people are not willing to commit to do because they don’t see results fast enough.
Thank you for mentioning this. For many trans people, myself included, I think a common hurdle can be the fear of experiencing transphobia or discrimination. The reality is those are experiences that very well may happen and many do face. For some, the resultant anxiety interfers greatly with their ability to function. In my opinion, CBT/radical acceptance can potentially help in those cases.
Also a mental health provider specializing in adults with childhood trauma and transgender mental Healthcare. Talk therapy is also seen and felt as scary when we are helping our clients become aware of their fear and anxiety in their bodies because it can feel very overwhelming initially. I always try to prepare my clients and have a very open contact policy if help is needed to talk through experience outside of therapy. Talk therapy is hard, but a good practitioner builds safety that fits and adjusts for their clients' needs.
@@Patrick-y4d1z “Almost always” and question my approach all you’d like. Is there a better approach you can enlighten us on that applies to every single trans person in this world? F all the way off with that nonsense.
@@mindyross1028 we share the same niche. Thank you for adding that. You’re exactly right. I do a ton of prep work. Obv coping skills for safety have to be there. Somatic treatments, actual rapport and trust not just I’m the authority, so you can believe me. I just didn’t think I needed to spell it all out for the internet.
What should we do for the kid in front of us presenting with gender dysphoria? Well, there is one thing we absolutely should NOT do and that's allow legislators to make the decision. The government has absolutely no business forcing such an important medical decision onto families.
Yes. This is the land of the free after all, why would we want to let the government control us or anyone else??? Hurting kids is already a crime, and the idea that LGBT folks disproportionately hurt children is just not true at all. (I'm not responding to you commenter, just the general anti-trans sentiment)
@@hannahstraining7476 meanwhile mandated covid vaccine. If legislators, and presidents acting as legislators, decide many medical decisions and medical practices, why not in the arena of sex/gender medicalization?
A friend of mine had their medication taken away recently in Florida. I’m trying my best to be there for them but I can see the decline, they went from smiling and giggling all the time to barely laughing at all within a few months, I can barely get them to talk anymore. It’s awful. I’ve already lost a trans friend and I don’t want to lose another. Support your trans friends, it’s a terrible time.
There are programs in various trans sanctuary states that can help your friend move before it's too late of they're interested. Minnesota has a program called OutFront that could be an invaluable resource for your friend. I don't know the names of any others, but with enough googling and the help of the trans risk assessment map by Erin in the Morning, you could definitely find more. There are ways to escape Florida and it's worth upending your entire life to feel safe and whole.
That's horrible. 💔 I hope things change and I also want politicians and bigots to keep their bs out of healthcare for humans. People deserve to be who they are born to be. Much love to your friend!!!! And to you. 💚
When I was younger, I always thought and felt like I was male. This thought stayed with me into my teens. I never really expressed this to anyone, not even a counselor. But I did eventually feel more akin to a tom-boy or just a woman who doesn't follow the feminine gender role. Watching this reminded me of this. It does make me wonder if it came from an underlying issue. Long story short, my biological father was neglectful of me, his only daughter. But he wasn't towards my brothers (other than my younger foster brother, who is biologically my cousin on my father's side). It's probably very possible I felt that way because I wanted validation from my biological father.
@@RunBayouit’s talked about plenty in a political or social kind of way, but I rarely see professionals describing the science and medicine behind transgender medicine and terminology in such an open and non biased way as this
Its so refreshing to see medical experts talk about trans people as normal people, due to where I live many people are VERY close minded and seeing you guys communicate and talk about the transgender community is so important. Thank you so much I remember being little and asking my mom if I was able to get rid of my female chest area, because it made me so uncomfortable to be thought of as a girl and that visible to everyone else, I wasn't even 7, I remember being little and making my long stomach length hair look short by tucking it into a baseball cap and hoodie and "Playing like a boy" or being in the shower and fashioning my hair to look short similarly so I could have short hair, even if for a moment because it meant I didn't need to be a girl right then. Trans people aren't trans because they are confused, or because of the internet, it's because of a genuine weight on your bones telling you when you look in the mirror the person looking back is not you, and wont be until you fix it
I think people may not be measuring correctly in thinking females are more susceptible to self-harm via social media influence. Similar to the diagnosis of eating disorders being much higher in women, but when you include excessive exercise with a focus on weight loss and/or being "built", men have "eating disorders" too.
I agree. Usually the same behavior shows up differently in men vs women, preventing people from getting help because they think they can’t have something since they’re not [gender].
There is also the under diagnosis of this in men. I'd say more than one has one in order to maintain there abbs. You need a super low % for that lower for male then femail (I did use sex here purposely) as the fat on a male tends to group in areas around the abdomen more.
@@jaxdragonvein8162actually restrictive EDs can often include excessive exercise with caloric restriction. EDs and BDD are not mutually exclusive and people with EDs such as bulimia or anorexia do often have body image issues like BDD, or they can see their body for what it is and still think it’s not enough (which wouldn’t necessarily be BDD).
I'm not even 15 minutes in and this is already on of the best videos on medical transitioning I have seen. It's so refreshing to hear the opinion of somebody who is both empathetic towards kids's experiences and works with them professionally. An actual expert! It has become so rare. I love that you touch on topic like detransitioning, whether gender dysphoria can be classified as an illness or not, the different ways we have decided to determine someone's sex, etc. without judgement, treating them as the objective issues they are. I was really scared this was going to be a right-wing video hahaha
You're one expert I trust so I looked up your channel name followed by "Transgender discussion" at some point and didn't find anything notable, so I'm really glad you're discussing this today!
I watch these videos of Dr. Mike's when I'm frustrated with the discourse I hear in real life and see online that completely lacks nuance and comes from a place of such bad intent. The way Dr. Mike communicates with his guests heals me and my faith in humanity.
One thing above all Else i cannot understand is how and when did it become appropriate for politicians with zero medical background to make laws around physical and mental healthcare topics. Politicians botched covid response in dismissing the seriousness and severity of the illness Now politicians are inserting themselves into womens' health issues around abortion. Which in many cases are medically necessary) And for a long time have been inserting themselves into transgender issues. These are medical issues. They deserve objective and quality research in scientific studies. What signs does someone have that they are trans. What medical interventions are appropriate when. What potential side effects are there. What is the benefits vs risks. These are all things that have been studied and so far its been overwhelmingly positive to allow people to express themselves freely. Without bullying or discrimination. For some individuals that may include medical transition. And for those who find it necessary hugely benefit from this care. We still need more research. Long term care, what additional medical needs may these people have. And above all; we need to stop demonizing and discriminating against the transgender community and keep politicians out of medical decisions
How can you not see that the medical science field is highly compromised. They lied repeatedly about covid and its vaccine and have admitted as such. Laws regarding abortion and trans issues are generally about protecting children from undue harm. Ive yet to see a single example of why a child needs to alter their hormones or body medically it always boils down to veiled threats that if you don't let them they will hurt themselves. Sound like a crazy ex girlfriend
That's what we do in my country. The medical councils are the ones proposing legislation for medical issues, and then they're compared against the constitution and may include votings
The discussion about the differences in BDD and Gender Affirming Surgery is really great, because a lot of people don't understand that need for some trans people. I started my medical transition when I was 25yrs old - 2 years after having gone through therapy, coming out to my family and being rejected, and struggling to find a PCP who could refer me to an LGBTQ+ affirming endocrinologist. I have gone back and forth about whether or not I should have bottom surgery at some point (still unsure if metoidioplasty or phalloplasty) because of where those kinds of results are at right now. I know it would significantly improve my feelings of genital dysphoria, but I don't want to risk having the results be worse than what functional organs I have now. If I had to settle for just a hysterectomy, I think I could live with that and be comfortable.
The fact that we are wasting this much time on something this ridiculous speaks volumes about the level of privilege and protection people have in the USA...
@@Digger-Nick I can't say I agree with you, and that's okay, just because there are bigger problems doesn't mean these have to be forgotten, each to their own, it really isn't a big deal imo
Before commenting based on the title, please recall that these discussions are not doctor mike agreeing with everything the other person is saying. He will input his own knowledge based on his medical experience and argue if any statements are not to his knowledge, correct/safe from professional viewpoint.
He obviously does agree though, tbh I haven't watched the whole thing yet but there are points when I would've interjected and asked the guest to explain certain things where Mike just takes it for granted. Also, the whole basis of gender "affirming" care goes of the basis that you believe people can be born the wrong gender and there are ways to rectify it.
I finally after many days managed to walk the whole podcast. Both you professionals have taught me many things today. I love all the topics discussed. I would like to see a part two if it's possible. I learned alot
Thank you so much Dr. Mike for having this important conversation with an expert in his field! I have worked in transgender clinic from the Endocrine side of things and have been so annoyed by how the media makes it seem like we are just throwing hormones and puberty blockers at all our patients. In reality it is a very slow and individualized process, we don't even prescribe anything on the first or even second visit and make sure patients are well established with a psychologist first. Additionally, before starting any treatment both the parents and patient have to be on board, which can take several more visits and conversations. For T, parents have to sign a lengthy consent form detailing all the possible side effects, and most surgeons won't even consider doing gender affirming surgery until after age 18. In most cases, the patient is frustrated while waiting to finally start hormones because they know exactly who they are. I've now moved to a more conservative state but will keep fighting for my trans patients! I'm hopeful that we will have a restoration of medical care for all our transgender youth in the future!
You are destroying these children’s lives. Eventually, there will be massive lawsuits. You’re on the wrong side of history. CHILDREN CANNOT CONSENT. This is child sexual abuse.
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to Lastly, as I mentioned it is the parents signing the consent forms not the kid. But of course the kids have to verbally consent to the treatment as well. I don’t think I’m the one who will end up on the wrong side of history since transgender and nonbinary people will continue to exist…
@@juliannebullock8311 A child cannot comprehend the implications of this choice on the rest of their lives. You are permanently affecting their chances of a healthy relationship and the ability to have a healthy adult sex life and kids. No child understands this. Their brains are not yet developed enough. Society says they can’t even comprehend the consequences of a tattoo until they’re 18 and of drinking alcohol until they’re 21. And the parents are being coerced by doctors who tell them their child will end their life if they don’t do this. This is unethical. And it is sexual abuse. You are psychologically manipulating them on a path to genital mutilation.
Politics aside I've always found hormone treatment in general interesting. I have Kallmann Syndrome and am unable to produce hormones naturally due to a suppressed pituitary gland. The lack of hormones and eventually being on TRT have had massive impacts on me mentally and physically. (I was on The Doctors TV show ~10 years ago when I was formally diagnosed.) I imagine when it comes to someone who identifies as transgender there's likely a large hormone imbalance. With the "right" treatment they may lean more one way than another. But it's clearly not just hormone related.
no, trans people aren't known to have hormone imbalances with respect to their birth sex, and taking testosterone as a trans woman doesn't make you lean more toward taking testosterone, if that's what you mean
The discussion about CBT and what constitutes a "rational" assessment of danger made my think about my own situation. I (30 F) was diagnosed with PTSD in 2019 after being violently sexually assaulted and almost murdered. The person who nearly killed me later threatened to find me (I had moved) and hurt me again. Though I was scared he'd follow through on his threat, I also knew he lived on the other side of the country, so I was able to tell myself that it was unlikely he'd go through all the trouble of finding me. That rational line of thought was at least somewhat comforting. Then, a couple months ago, because of my husband's job, I had to move *into the city where my attacker lives.* It's a big city, but I can't shake the feeling that I will look up on a bus or subway or on the street someday and he'll be right there in front of me. It also feels way, wayyy more likely that, if he does find my address online somehow, he'll actually come find me, since I now live so close to where he lives, and it'd be "his turf," convenient for him, etc. People close to me act like it's just as irrational for me to be afraid now as it was when I lived very far from him, but I 1) don't think it was that irrational to begin with to be afraid of a person who had almost killed me and who had threatened to find me, and 2) I think it's certainly more rational for me to be more afraid now than I was when I lived far away from him. I don't use public transit, I don't visit areas of the city close to where he lives, and I avoid neighborhoods and venues that I feel he might frequent. That seems totally rational to me. But I could imagine a CBT therapist deeming my fear of using public transportation a symptom of PTSD to be treated, not a rational response to real, recently escalated danger. Idk. It's so, so easy for people who haven't experience trauma to tell people who have that the world is a safer place than it actually is. I get that it's "nicer" and "easier" to imagine that the world is safe and nothing bad is going to happen, but that's just so clearly not the case for so many people. And invalidating people's rational fears is harmful, not helpful.
I think it’s both; like for you, fear of being on public transit is valid but if it causes you to be unable to leave the house it’s a problem. A well informed psychologist would help you work to find a healthy sense of safety without paranoia. A person who fears fire after being trapped in a burning building shouldn’t have to be ok with bonfires, but needs to be able to function with say a candles on a birthday cake. Fireplaces may be an issue for a decade, but baby steps. If the paranoia is keeping you from forming positive relationships that would be a CBT situation. If you end up with a security system and a deadbolt or even a lovely protective trauma trained dog, that’s pretty normal. You got this, I hope you find peace, and a psychologist that works well with you
I'm so sorry that happened to you. It must be hell. CBT is definitely not indicated for anything trauma related, had me end up in the hospital. Get a real therapist please. Take care ❤
I coach a Sunday league women's football (soccer) team. A few weeks ago we played against a team made up of transgender women and they walked over us, 8-1. They were by far the better team and went on to win the league. Most of our players are good athletes, but they didn’t have the opportunity to play football at a young age because it was considered a boys’ sport. As a result, their technical skills and intuitive understanding of the game are limited- they did not grow up playing the game. On the other hand, transgender women we played against were skilled footballers who seemed to have played the game from a young age. They had access to a footballing education that our players were denied. I also assume they may have benefited from higher levels of testosterone, which can enhance athletic performance. The game felt rigged and unfair. In terms of footballing ability, the transgender players we faced would fit better in the men’s section of the sport. However, I play in the men's section of our Sunday league and I’m fully aware that transgender players would most certainly face discrimination if they joined us. It’s unfortunate, but it’s a reality. Sunday league should be a fun and safe space for everyone, and we can’t ask someone to face discrimination. Keeping this highly skilled team in the women's league is unfair to other teams, but moving them to the men’s league would be unfair and harmful to them. One possible solution might be to have these skilled players spread out across different teams, but selecting transgender women specifically feels morally wrong and wouldn’t lead to a fair solution. I’m not sure what a fair and sustainable solution is, so I’m sharing this here to see if anyone has any interesting ideas.
i really wonder if the skill issue would be the same in the states. over here it’s our women who dominate soccer. that’s the main “girl” sport so that difference wouldn’t be there
You do realize that you are saying the feelings of men are equivalent to unsafe and grossly unfair physical disadvantages the females are facing? Men need to get over it.
I appreciate Dr. Mike asking questions that a lot of us might have but have never gotten a good answer to. I appreciate Dr. Turban answering them with expertise and not getting offended at them. I often struggle to find answers to these types of questions without facing judgment for asking them in the first place.
I really really loved this video, thank you for this Dr. Mike, and Dr. Turban, you both are amazing. As a trans person, contrary to popular belief, I do like the difficult questions and topics regarding trans issues, and gender identity; the problem is too many asking the questions phrase them in a leading way, or are not coming to the table in good faith to learn or be open to a new perspective, they're coming to debate you on why you're wrong and delusional, and they're right and sane carrying a briefcase of assumptions and misrepresentations about what we believe and think of our own bodies and identities but never actually hearing us. On top of that it can be frustrating as a trans person to be asked these academic level questions that someone like Dr. Turban is more equipped to explain that the average person, but we as trans people sometimes get expected to be academics on our own identity, psychology, and medical data about the procedures we go through that it can be exhausting. We can't always give all the answers, sometimes there are questions better deffered to experts, and sometimes, it just gets tiring constantly being placed in a position where you need to explain academic level topics, to people completely new to the topic, and/or are in bad faith and not actually interested in anything you have to say, no matter how well-worded. LONG RAMBLE ASIDE; In short, i appreciate Dr. Mike coming to the table in good faith, i feel that was evident by this talk, how the questions weren't leading, and how he was able to accept being wrong or the idea he may need more knowledge on this subject, and to look into it further beyond this talk alone. Good faith is a breath of fresh air cause these topics can be genuinely interesting, inciteful, and worthwhile, when both parties are interested in learning, growing, and humility.
Tbh this is why there's so much confusion and hostility now. People can't absorb info and need it broken down into 10 second sound bites. A terrible way to get new information for a complex topic
I really dislike that Turban thinks schizophrenia needs to be depathologized. Destigmatized is one thing, but it is unquestionably a disease by most any measure. Trivializing serious conditions in his pursuit to make some other condition "normal" does a disservice to the whole of society and shows he cares about activism more than truth.
Hey, Dr. Mike! Love how composed you are during controversial conversations like this. You have a track record of encouraging balanced, thoughtful discussions - something I don't see as often as I should. Thank you!
Dr Mike, I really hope you have masters-level mental health clinicians on your show in the future, as we provide the bulk of behavioral health services in the US, not psychiatrists. While the medical lens is an important one, psychiatrists are never going to have the same perspective that say (me, a social worker) will have working in environments that psychiatrists do not, because they don’t get paid as little as we do (which is why they don’t work in many of the environments we do). As a school social worker, I’m going to have VERY different insight than a psychiatrist that may sit in an office or research the topic. Ground-level experiences are important. Anywho, hope to see more social workers, marriage and family therapists, etc. on your show. Psychiatrists and psychologists are not the end all be all of mental health-even in medically-relevant topics like this.
May times psychologists and psychiatrists are wrong on issues and treatments. Even major famous psychiatrists like Sigmond Freud have been found to have been wrong how they diagnosed and treated people. In eugenics, we had psychologists and psychiatrists supporting that destructive movement. We had these professions support barbaric medical procedures like lobotomies. In 10, 50, or even 100 years, we will look at pushing transgenderism as a solution to childhood issues as just as barbaric and destructive.
Very true. I'd also love to hear about this topic from a trained Nurse Practitioner/Physician's Assistant- they've been demonized in places like Florida for not having experience/authority to treat trans people, but they receive plenty of training & education & are invaluable in the healthcare field, regardless of specialty. They also spend more time doing patient outreach than a physician will, so they often have a holistic view & know when to delegate something to a different professional that is more experienced.
@@ZijnShayatanica Why would he have a nurse practitioner on? NPs go to school for significantly less time than doctors and to say they know much less medically would be an understatement. They also don’t have the same degree of hands-on education. That is absolutely not to say that they are not very important-because they absolutely are-but on a podcast where he’s talking to experts? I don’t see how one could be other than if they were just talking about their experience being a NP. I also disagree with the idea that many have a more holistic view. By actively knowing less than a physician, they cannot diagnose with the consideration of every ailment it could be. Of course NPs will have to delegate to specialists more-they don’t have the same skill set. Doctors have a higher baseline of knowledge to treat and diagnose, and good doctors will delegate to a specialist when need-be. In my experience, more NPs will assume they know instead of consulting a specialist. The only reason NPs get “demonized” is because many genuinely believe they are as knowledgable as physicians and don’t correct people who refer to them as “doctors” which is insulting to people who go through the gruelling process of medical school and residency.
@phe.mp3 are you a nurse or a doctor? I don't know a single NP that fancies themselves as a doctor or wants that level of responsibility... if they did, they'd move onto medical school. Seeing prospectives of mental health PA or NP would be interesting and I don't think it's fair to completely write them off.
Just a note: a marriage and family therapist is usually a psychologist, or sometimes a psychiatrist. If it's neither, it's not a marriage and family therapist you should trust. I do agree that having people beyond physicians can offer a broader perspective, but it's important for Dr Mike to feel able to speak to those professionals on the same terms he would speak to another physician, which isn't always easy.
One of the good things about tbe audience Dr Mike has cultivated is theyre pretty level headed. Very different from the debate bro communities popping up that pretend to be willing to hear differing discourse
I had gender dysphoria for years and thought I was trans. I suspect it was because I was molested by my father (and others) from a young age and femininity made me feel vulnerable. I wonder if this is being accounted for or screened for in some way.
Well, like with all things that have to do with brains it's a spectrum. A lot of people can get dysphoria even when they feel their own gender, and that's normal. I think a lot of echo chambering between both sides has sort of gotten it to the point of "dysphoria means trans" when it can be a whole slew of things. As they talked about in the video, there are people like tomboys, or the more recent (or recently accepted, rather) femboys who can have gender dysphoria, or just don't identify with the social feminine/male norms. Which is completely normal, and they casually just stride with what they do like for themselves. Please inform me if I'm getting things wrong I'm still learning all these things
It is. You're supposed to go through like a year of psychiatric visits before you're allowed to get on hormones. If you're lucky. Usually it ends up being a minimum of three years, some people upwards of two decades.
So sorry that happened to you. I got the impression from Dr. Turban that those kinds of possibilities are explored before any medical intervention is prescribed.
i just made a comment about that! it seems to be more of a trauma response (not for everyone) but for most people ive known being in and out of the hospital
Hi Dr Mike, I was wondering if your alsop open to discuss this topic with Dr. Miriam Grossman. She has valid concerns about this topic and she is a Child and Adolescent psychiatrist.
Dr Mike did a great job here and did not shy away from tough questions. I do feel like there was a lot of quick and easy dismissal of studies that revealed anti-transition results which MIGHT be fair and right, but it did seem a bit too quickly dismissed from my perspective.
It's a 3 hour conversation, and it could've been much longer. Maybe you'll find the in-depth answers in his book, which probably took months instead of hours. Just saying!
Thank you for asking the hard questions, trying so hard to be careful with your words, being methodical and organized about this topic. No one has all the answers and we are all trying so hard to learn.
One thing I that’s amazing about this is the hard or difficult questions. I truly think these help keep the conversation flowing and have a better understanding of these things. No matter someone’s views on this. This is very informative and a great discussion.
Finally, someone talking about gender and transgender people who are actually medical experts and someone who is knowledgeable in the field! There's far too many arm chair doctors when it comes to transgender people.
there are plenty of doctors who are critical of transitioning and they are mostly silenced or ridiculed simply for disagreeing. In the end, you will criticize anyone who disagrees with you regardless of their profession.
@@cesarcueto1995 okay, you have any sources can you name reputable doctor who is silenced or ridiculed?
@@cesarcueto1995have you watched the full video?
@@cesarcueto1995I can understand being critical on an issue that isn’t fully researched but there is no other proven alternative for people who suffer from GD and those people will live their lives regardless of how long it takes to come to a complete conclusion on what the best course of action is. People do still need healthcare for such problems.
@@cesarcueto1995 are they silenced because they are critical or silenced because they aren't credible or reputable?
If you have questions about heart surgery are you going to ask a chiropractor or a cardiologist?
If you have questions about diabetes treatments are you going to ask the guy who lost his license or the guy who actively practices?
I'm a detransitioner, I was struggling with anorexia and body dysmorphia at the time plus undiagnosed autism and bpd. I loved this conversation, thank you for bringing detransition up with no judgement, I feel like it is often misunderstood.
Hope you're doing well now! Glad they focused on the facts and stuff.
@@pathwaytousername Yes doing great now! thank you
I have so much empathy for many detransitioners... I'm just upset when some of them use their experiences to promote transphobia & insist other people don't have the right to express themselves in a way that feels right for them. It's unfortunate that a vocal minority has hurt so many people - trans & detrans people alike.
@@ZijnShayatanica I feel like this too. Trans and detrans should work together, not against each other. I don't like when other detrans people use their experience to say transition isn't good for anyone, the same goes for trans people, I think many treat detransitioners badly and say that we just are transphobic. I have my experience, I confused my issues with gender dysphoria, that doesn't mean that others don't have it and that transition isn't the right approach for them. Trans and detrans people should coexist, respect each other and work together against stigma
@@sillaresmes I agree... I understand a lot of the trans community feeling defensive & scared, because the world is hostile & the political atmosphere online is even moreso. But... That's no excuse not to listen to someone & hear them out. The only time I'd suggest a trans person not seek out detrans content is if it's becoming a form of self-harm - some of us have used it time to time to try to convince ourselves it isn't valid & continue to suppress. But ultimately... I hope that the hateful environment dies down & we can hear less from the screeching mobs so the rest of us can have a moment of peace. 🙃
I'm really glad you finally figured out what was right for you. That must have been fkn HARD... Because someone who isn't trans going through social transition &/or medical transition would just CAUSE dysphoria! Which I don't wish on anybody, cis or trans.
Regardless of your opinions, accepting unprompted physical violence and bullying is shameful. The necessity of putting a suicide hotline number under the video brings emphasis to the issue as well.
Exactly; I put it like this: it's good that it exists, it's bad that it *needs* to exist.
@@mxstrikk I was mostly talking about how the hotline needs to be underneath the video.
If you have an issue with what people do at home you're a psychopath. Can't blame people for their extreme reactions we don't know the trauma or mental capacity of strangers. That's why we must learn to defend ourselves from threats. Not trying to defend violent reactions on mental or neurological issues it just should be said by someone.
The hotline was put on the video because the topic of suicide was brought up all together, any video that talks about has to have it, it a UA-cam thing not a specific subject thing
You realise that trans people, if not getting murdered the most, then have a chance to commit suicide the most due to never been treated as human, right?
I’m a 30yr old heterosexual male that is proudly masculine - this “issue” of transgender people has never felt like an issue to me at all. I can’t imagine waking up every day in a body that I don’t feel like I belong in, but I can and do have empathy, and enough sense to not let someone else’s sexual identities interfere with my own. These “manly men” all over the world that always say things like “what would our forefathers say about queer/trans people” - brother, they’d be ashamed of you for caring so much about what other grown people do with their private parts.
it's not sexual identities btw. Sexual identities are what you are attracted to aka heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual etc etc. Transgender/transsexual people is about GENDER identity. There is no inherent sexual component (aka to what am I attracted or what is sexually arousing) that is happening during questions of gender identity.
But thank you for being supportive of queer people, and understanding that someone else's genitals is none of one's business unless they wanna be in a romantic relationship with this person or they are your doctor and you have medical questions concerning the genitals.
People should have a right to transition. But not with support of government. Not if said person is not of legal age(18 or 21). Surgeries should be reversable(no vasectomy)
@@nurikkulanbaev3628 Do you think every surgery should be reversible? That would defeat the purpose usually, and transgender operations have a way lesser rate of regret than knee surgeries. Are you going to restrict those too?
I mean sure but you are a man. You have an advantage over transmen or transwomen. This nonbinary stuff is dangerous for women. Lgbtq wants people to just rise a hand and say ”I am this” and now they are. A man without treatment and surgery can walk into Female spaces and don’t give af about women feeling uncomfortable IN THEIR SPACES. Like sure If one has operated their whole body they probably aren’t cis predators using the lgbtq law but as I Said how do we know a person That’s a nonbinary biological man wont hurt or prey on women? Cos on the outside you can’t see the diffrence between a nonbinary person and a cis man predators? Men are smart if just putting on a wig makes one able to go into women spaces they will do that to get to women.
Heck, George Washington was most likely bisexual himself lol. And men were more “feminine” in the 1700s than they are now. Women couldn’t even act so cross dressing men was COMMON and NORMAL. Lol.
It’s so refreshing to hear two people talking, pausing asking for clarification and examples before answering. Not shying away or reducing the detail.
This is how we should talk to each other.
nowadays you never see this honestly
everyone I talk to just assumes and insults or doesnt explain anything
I can agree with that!
So true
Yeah, it is kind of easier to start talking to each other when you know the "other side" sees you as a human being and not someone who should disappear because you present differently than the s ex you were assigned at birth. It's kind of hard for people to keep civil and respectful when the other person subscribes to an ideology that you're "unnatural" and therefore shouldn't exist.
Neither of them took offense to a question and it was so pleasant.
I love that Dr. Mike starts right away with trying to clear up misunderstanding through definitions. There's so much nuance to this topic.
Maybe there seems like there is so much nuance because the community is so fearful of asserting objective truths that they refuse to even assign definitions to words. What is the point of even having language if using it doesn't convey meaningful information to another person?
@@Reiza-jj5lfit’s because the real world is complicated.
@@purefury702 what is chair
I'm not so happy because Jack doesn't come up with one single clear definition and Mike doesn't push him on that.
What was cleared up? All I heard was terms without definition cus apparently there’s multiple definitions that the other Doctor couldn’t even explain.
This is the medical field people. There needs to be one clear cut definition based on logical facts without the propaganda when it comes to health and wellness, otherwise what’s the point?
I'm so happy to see this topic discussion by medical experts snd not politicians.
Imagine the world run by doctors. Majority of things would be banned, they would run a dictatorship.
Same. Politicians think they are experts when they have a high school dropout level knowledge of sex. I also hate that some general doctors that don't specialise in gender, sex and gender identity talk about this in politics.
Turban is a trans advocate and paid to say what he says
@@GeeGeeGemini But that does not mean that any of this isn't true. It is just better to see an actual expert talk about it instead of a politician or a general doctor that doesn't even understand intersex
@@GeeGeeGemini and a lot of politicians, especially in the US are driven be religious doctrine and say things that are purposefully inflammatory to get a bigger platform and get more votes
let's remember the american politician that called trans and LGBT folk "imps" and "demons" and wanted to be rid of us while also constantly referring to the bible
i wonder where separation of church and state ran off to
As a trans guy myself, these conversations are so important to have, especially on larger platforms such as yours. I agree that a lot of disagreements arise due to misunderstandings surrounding certain terms or language, so the clarification of definitions was a great way to start out! Medical interventions have, quite literally, been a lifesaver for me, so thank you for bringing up these important topics of discussion!
Regardless of where you stand on the issue, nobody should ever have to face bullying and harassment for being gay or being trans. To be honest I don't know any trans people personally, but I have known a lot of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people over the years who have either never told the families or been completely rejected by their families for telling them. I had a family member come out as gay and people treated him with such disgust that he ended it all. I have had more than one bisexual girlfriend in my lifetime where they were terrified of their parents knowing about it. And I have a gay friend who got rejected by his own parents and cut off from his family. It's not right to treat people that way.
cz. / . . .
I disagree
I’m so sorry you lost a family member to homophobia. I will say at least as gay people we can choose to hide if we feel we could be in immediate danger. If you are in the process of transitioning, don’t totally “pass”, or at this point in the US even look any type of gender fluidity, you can’t choose to hide from dangerous people.
It’s crazy people can have a “stance”, a point of view, or an opinion on basic human rights. We’re all human. End of story.
I do agree!
@@fire_rises Okay. Do you care to elaborate on what you disagree with and why? Otherwise your comment is pointless because it's not like anybody changes their mind about something the moment a faceless person on the internet says "I disagree".
i'm only about 30 minutes in but i really really appreciate dr mike 1. talking about this on such a large platform and 2. really listening to dr turban and asking questions - really promising so far, and i'm glad because it's a little scary to actually click on a video like this because of all the negativity it can spawn
I thought this convo was pretty weak
@@stringX90 i don't think so personally - doctor mike did a lot of listening which might make it seem weak but honestly he acknowledged that this is a subject where he needs to learn, so he let doctor turban educate him and asked a lot of questions when he needed to
I wish I could read this like in paragraphs and not from the transcription. I find it hard to sit down and watch these long videos even though I really want to
@@rose_cool4662there are websites that will scrape the UA-cam auto generated (or handwritten if they're present) captions. Google Downsub or views4you.
@@dr_israrkibzai i have a feeling we weren't watching the same video 😆i saw a lot of medical talk, especially with regards to psychology, psychiatry, endocrinology, and mental wellbeing
Dr Mike, please bring a gynae or a doctor with a specialty dealing in menstruation/cycle, etc. to talk about the origin of the terminologies, the misconceptions, how to deal with the pain and PMS, intermenstrual bleeding, ovulation pain and bleeding, science-backed food and hygiene practices that make the period a better experience for women.
And maybe something on menopause and the brain too.
Also maybe talk to them about the differences between male and female healthcare and how women tend not to be taken seriously about their pain (IUD insertion as an example)
this!!
I know he's already talked in other videos about how heart attacks (for example) present differently in women, but it might be a good thing to bring up as well.
Yes
"If the bullying become chronic"... "but if it is acute" is such a nerdy way for Mike to express it. I have the same problem when I use jargon from my field to express everyday things to the amusement of my friends. This made me laugh out loud, and I know bullying is never fun, but this just got to me.
The most frustrating part of being trans that it feels like everyone gets a chance to decide "what to do with you", except you. Politicians, religious people, family, and doctors who don't work with trans people at all, and of course, people who want to get some quick fame by espousing controversy. Everyone has an opinion, and the less they know about what it's like to be trans, the louder they get to be. It's exhausting to be constantly under scrutiny and attack. Even with doctors, we're treated almost like a curiosity than actual people. We really are on our own.
@@Arachdrakon Huh? You completely misunderstood the comment. They never suggested the doctor needs to be trans in order to treat trans people, they said they need to know about trans people, the same way how an oncologist needs to know about cancer and tumors in order to treat it. Also, doctors usually work with patients in order to learn more about the condition in question.
@@VixenArt3lol
Imagine someone going “well my therapist said so”
@@Mas-ij3ti You comparing a medical professional to a restaurant and a business shows me that you neither have any understanding or respect for medical professionals.
@@Arachdrakon Where is this even coming from? Depression, while can be debilitating, doesn't necessarily impair your judgement to the point where you are unable to decide what is the best for you. I can assure you that excluding a few rare cases (which you might come under, idk what your experience is like), or crisis circumstances most patients with depression are perfectly capable of understanding the consequences and weighing the benefits of decisions enough to make sound judgements for their best interests.
Any therapist/ psychiatrist that infantilises their patients or minimises their agency is not fulfilling the fundamental principles we need to follow as mental health professionals, I can assure you of that. If you disagree with this, please re-read the comment and look this up online, I know the training we undergo.
That being said, strawman-ing this person's argument just shows that you have no intention of understanding what this person has to say. They never said anything about doctors having the same illness/experiences as the patients in order to give them essential treatment. While you don't need to have cancer to treat it, if you have no idea what cancer is and spend most of your time gaslighting your patients that their symptoms are in fact not related to cancer and instead demonise them for having said symptoms.... well then you should have your licence revoked. Unfortunately, that rarely happens when you only target marginalised communities who don't have much power within the society.
Plenty of doctors carry prejudice towards people, certain life saving procedures or can be just as if not more vulnerable to misinformed propaganda. I have personally seen people lose their lives over this. I've seen enough "doctors" dismiss the effect of mental illness and trauma in their patients that had deadly consequences. Pedestalising doctors will get you nowhere.
@@PhillipMorrison-ws8tmHow are they “deciding” that for you, could you give specific examples 😂
I really enjoy the flow and the way Dr. Mike allows his guests to speak but also contributes equally in the conversation. He is a good listener. So many shows like Piers Morgan interrupt and interrogate their guests repeatedly as if they claim to be open minded but really only want their perspectives to be heard and understood. Piers does this with guests he disagrees with.
well duh its piers morgan 💀💀
Piers Morgan really just fighting for the soundbites LOL Should be a chef with how much of a tosser he is.
@@ana..a.😂
I think he’s more firm and more confrontational to people who spew nonsense lol
@@BusinessSkrub Bro do you not know how he treated Alex o connor? Alex is literally one of the most open minded people in youtube and always goes into civilized discussions even with people in the complete opposite of the political spectrum, this includes people like Ben Shapiro, and Jordan Peterson. The whole time, he was completely civilized with those people, and those people were civilized with him.
But then came Piers Morgan, when none of this happened. Just turned into some gotcha contest as according to Piers Morgan's will.
Alex o connor is just one of the many examples of Piers' "very perfect normal, civil conversations"
This topic needs so much more level-headed discussion. Love to see this.
Absolutely. Good to see some pushback from Mike, e.g. transwomen in sports, but felt he could've pushed bit more, esp because I feel he disagrees with the doc with a book to sell.
@@nivvy19 they belong in their biological sexes sport
@@nivvy19I love when people only focus on the small part of the video that agrees with their narrative and completely ignore the rest. Very good example of confirmation bias.
Fr
were the politician the ones that downgraded the level of the talk, trans woman are persecuted because politics, nothing in science goes against trans people.
1:08:23 - that person was David Reimer, born Bruce Reimer along with his twin Brian. Both of them suffered severe psychological trauma from the abuse inflicted on them from John Money in his useless attempts to force the boys to prove his "gender identity" hypothesis true. As Dr. Turban described, Money was very wrong. Both David and Brian would go on to take their own lives in adulthood. I found to be deeply disrespectful that Dr. Turban would refer to David as "her" and glibly describe the outcome as "bad". Considering that the female gender was not only never accepted by David, but completely rejected, and in light of the subsequent tragic outcome stemming from his abuse, I think this could have been treated with more care.
Yikes i was just learning about the guy in class but i didn't realize dr. Money did that. That's terrible.
Dr. Turban is clearly more activist than scientist
It's rough when you're treated as a political argument, not even a person, for being trans. Like mate, it's none of your business to question if it doesn't impact you in any way. Glad to see an actual medical expert looking into it. Dr. Mike is awesome.
Okay mate, then don't force other people and reality to adapt to you. Feel absolutely free to wear whatever you want, and feel about yourself however you want, but then also allow other people to react to that how they want. Whether it's acceptance of it, or refusal.
Can't act like a victim when you're the one being the aggressor when it comes to the topic.
@@ghostfish771Trans people are killed and abused physically and verbally for being trans. No amount of self victimisation will make the same happen to cisgender people, which seems like something you all want considering the way you ACT persecuted. To call trans people the aggressors would be laughable if it wasn't so tone-deaf and far from the truth.
@@ghostfish771In order to function as a society, respect must be given to people and how they define their lives. You wouldn't just go around deliberately calling married people by their maiden names or using nicknames someone does not like unless you are trying to hurt them. This level of acceptance is the basic level of respect needed to interact with others as a member of society and denying this to trans people shows that you do not believe they are 'free' to exist within society. Being denied this basic level of respect does in fact make someone a victim and it is not aggressive to suggest that you refer to someone how they would like to be referred to.
EDIT: Corrected spelling mistake 'with' to 'within'.
@@ghostfish771 The issue is that social interactions should change over time with our understanding of mental health, medicine, and research. Yes you can ignore and "not believe in" extra care for people on the spectrum or for people who have physical disabilities, but that does not mean that their issues disappear. If we all still kept the same beliefs from even 20 years ago on topics like depression, suicide, or anxiety, we wouldn't have made it through the pandemic and the social isolation coming with it. Listen to doctors, listen to research, and be a responsible and respectful person who can keep themselves informed without bullying people when they are just trying to exist, man. Be better. We all could use it.
Also, how was this person an "aggressor" in the comment section? Did they mention you? You see, you quite literally became the very type of person you critiqued in your comment.
@@robbu2445Pretending men are women is not 'showing them respect'; it's pandering to their dellusional fantasy.
What we should ALL respect is reality.
Gender identity ideology is not scientific. It's a religious concept that you're free to believe in. But since 'respect' is so important to you, YOU should have respect for others and respect the fact that not everyone shares your beliefs.
Forcing others to participate in your belief system is deeply disrespectful. Forcing everyone to pretend you're male when you're female is disrespectful. Forcing women and girls to tolerate men and boys invading their spaces and sports is disgustingly disrespectful.
Don't think I've seen anyone in the online space tow the line between compassion and constructive inquiry/healthy scepticism as well as Dr. Mike did right here. It's rare to find someone who's an excellent interviewer, but rarer still someone that isn't dogmatic. Already had massive respect for him, but man that's difficult to do with a topic as divisive as this one. Well done.
I think so too; he's asked questions very well.
I do think he towed the line of respect and pushing on actual concerns the general population has (trans athletes, kids transitioning, etc) very well
@@Andrew-pf5fj Exactly. That's difficult to do with class.
More importantly his interviewee wasn't the usual right wing promoted hack
@@Andrew-pf5fjthis was a good day for him, watch the one with dr K about ayurvedic medicine was messssy
In regards to John Money and the twin boys that he was working with they are from my hometown and they both had extremely bad outcomes as John Money did way more than just change the ones gender but forced them to do horrendous things to each other as well. He is absolutely disgusting and should have went to prison for the things he did but they are all deceased now.
@@vitaluka One took his own life the other OD'd
It's all good though he helped popularize the blank slate theory of gender and that we have an internal sense of gender identity! Well worth those children's suffering. Don't you think?
@@zarbins He popularized that we DONT have an internal sense of gender identity; that was his theory. That it was nurture. We now know (as Dr Turban explained) that people DO know what gender they are - hence the transcendent sense of gender Dr Turban keeps referring to. This Debunks Money
s theory. The only people still claiming the 'nurture' theory is the anti-trans campaigners (such as rapid onset gender dysphoria through social contagion - that relies on Money's theory of gender being nurtured through society).
@@zarbins Money showed that people had an innate sense of gender identity and they can't force people to be something they're not identifying as: he induced dysphoria in people. His research proved the danger and disgusting effects of maintaining and promoting gender dysphoria. Trans people go through that process, just from assigned sex rather than an external gender assignment. It actually shows that allowing an individual to self express rather than have gender imposed on them is important - especially for mutilated intersex children. A trans man for example grows up AFAB, then is socially imposed on by others with female stereotypes, creating a disconnect between innate sense of gender versus nurtured social roles. This is exactly what the cis boys went through in Money's study. What Money put the boys through is what people put trans kids through when they deny them self expression.
@@zarbins Disgusting way to look at it. Children should not be sacrificed on some altar of progress.
Regarding the connection between gender dysphoria and autism: Dr. Turban approaches the subject with a healthy dose of skepticism here (which I think is always good in science), but there are some interesting findings from those studies that he doesn't touch on in this episode. If anyone is still curious about that particular subject, Dr. K from Healthy Gamers (one of Mike's previous guests) has a great video called "Are Autism and Gender Identity Connected?" where he looks at these studies in more detail, and explores some of the theories as to why autism and gender dysphoria might co-occur. It was a very informative watch and I highly recommend it.
It happens because autism often comes with the need to put things in nice boxes. To have no ambiguity. This makes it easy to manipulate them into this ideology.
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to Rather the opposite as someone who works with people with people with autism, adhd, dyslexia etc often highly intelligent and a LOT more doctorat’s in my experiance than the general population rather they tend to be a lot less fixed on male or female or do not feel that they belong to their assigned gender at birth and that is when you talk to them from how have you felt from as far as you can remember also if anything what has negativly effected them is the expectation of feeling a standard way as you describe it in ” nice boxes” basically why they are so good those who have I Q to do it is because they think OUTSIDE established boxes.
@@gaelle4328 What exactly do you do?
Oh yea
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to You clearly don't know what Autism is.
Autism by itself is described as a condition where simply put, the person is OUTSIDE the box.
Speaking this being Autistic myself.
Don't speak on our behalf without knowing us first and understanding us and the contrition.
Dr. Mike out here not wearing any shoes for a conversation, gotta respect the comfort over formality
Really shows the benefits of working from home. lol
@@The_Blue_Wizard Also shows that us Slavs just don't wear shoes at home.
Had to let us know he had socks on
@@kylespeck7545 Yeah a doctor without shoes is EXACTLY the kind of person I’m going to trust with my well-being 🤣
Yeah @@duse1010
I knew I was bisexual in middle school. But when I told a close friend and she told others who started publicly asking me in front of crowds of people when I barely understood it myself, it lead to a lot of denial and shame surrounding those feelings because I knew I’d be looked at as weird or made fun of for it. Still to this day I struggle with these feelings because of this experience.
Thank you for posting this comment!! This happened to me when I was in school, I was very confident and dressings very flamboyantly. And I told a few people I thought I could trust and then would constantly get publicly confronted about. And this happened a few months after I had the realization. Now all my clothes are very plain and I have become someone who struggles to accept myself and it makes it hard to connect with other queer people.
(Edit) I know clothes don’t matter but that’s how I would express myself and it took that part of me away and I developed a lot of depression and anxiety and body dysmorphia because I didn’t look like the typical male.
@@joshuakerola6864 it's very necessary to know what your friend's ideologies are before telling them about yourself. some of these people will forget everything you've done for them and try to actively ruin your life just because you're queer.
You should struggle. Choosing this filthy lifestyle must be punished
Sigh. That "close friend" was no friend at all.
😫
I love how Dr.Mike just sit there listen to the guest and then say his opinion when it necessary. Have open conversation about these things are very hard to do.
I really respect how good you were in this conversation, Mike. You allowed the guest to speak, pushed back where appropriate, asked great probing questions, you weren't offensive and you intellegently, yet compasionately, stuck with the data.
if Dr. Mike says I need to listen to a 3 hour video, I will.
I'm sat
"Dr Mike."
Spoken like a true mindless puppet from the internet
Such an important conversation, and I appreciate Doctor Mike not only having Dr. Turban on, but also 1.) Asking clarifying questions and not just smiling and nodding, and B.) Not asking leading questions. Each question asked felt extremely thoughtful not just of the subject at hand between two experts, but also to help layman listeners better understand gender identity in a way that maybe we didn't before.
Really good and important episode!
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on UA-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
Hopefully Dr. Mike will get other medical doctors, psychiatrists, and psychologists in this field that aren't as controversial and biased as Jack Turban.
@@zarbinslol at “i dont agree with them so they are biased” maybe you are biased?
@@schizzzzz8912 I agree with him in part and my point is that there are other Doctors and Psychiatrists in this field that don't fully endorse Jack's Turban's views . I hope Dr. Mike can include these voices in this important discussion as well.
@@zarbins ok, from your wording or maybe my reading your first comment sounded like you were flaming him, my bad. yeah i agree with that.
DID ANYONE notice how fresh Docter mikes hair is looking
@@shimz2469 it looks as terrible as ever.
I love how Dr. Mike is just asking questions without giving his opinion. That’s a hard thing to do.
Yeah he’s just laying back and letting the thinly veiled activist spew his propaganda. Classic.
@@JaneyDoe-gx2vbpropaganda ≠ someone literally CALLING OUT propaganda ☠️😂
@@trip7002 Ikr people don't even know the definition of propaganda anymore🥲 ironically a result of the long standing tradition of the US government basing its entire education system on propaganda
He is kinda just giving a platform for the guy to speak, no questions being asked by him to even slightly challenge his fellow doctors view points. A lot of the feelings speech or saying we don't know just puts it all in a Grey area for me personally.
@@ArchxKn1ght You are absolutely delusional he is absolutely playing devils advocate like he does with all of his guests. You probably just want to watch podcast where people bash trans people almost certainly because you are just a bigot.
As a scientist I can say, that even if we do trust our fellow scientists with not ascribing negativity to various technical terms, we still do have a responsibility to society to communicate effectively beyond the purely technical aspects of our work. On one hand we can't do much if someone delves into our research, published for scientists, without the prerequisite training and misunderstands it... but at the very least we can choose our words carefully in public fora.
Especially for topics as divisive and politically charged. And especially when it could lead to even more danger to these people who are already having to live in fear every day.
I tried to do a research project in college on trans treatment outcomes and was dissuaded by my professor advisor that they didn’t believe that would be in the best interest of the university. Chilling effect.
@@jonathanstone4878it’s a very delicate subject and if handled poorly can cause a massive backlash. With that said, I think the University instead should’ve been keen to inform you about the risks and consequences of doing it poorly instead of convincing you to not do it. But I digress.
Sounds kind of scary to think about important subjects being suppressed in society.
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on UA-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
@@FoxiestLia They did explain, off the record later. They were afraid of drawing negative attention. Aka "Chilling Effect". Controversy in Uni can lead to a loss of funding. My paper and proposal won out over hundreds of applicants and earned me an award. The institutional review board asked me to resubmit. I went with anorexia instead. It was enough to graduate, but I would have liked a higher status pub.
Doctor's Mike's hair looking fabulous here lol
real
His hair looks like silk clouds. Straight up fire!
Right!😂 I wanna touch it.🤣
It truly is. It always does but today's hair is just 🎉 I was thinking the same thing just before I read your comment 😂
Omg his hair is giving Barbie doll vibes
HUGE respect towards you two for talking about this topic and making information like this more easily available for people, and not just that but also talking about it so respectfully, too. Asking questions when you don't fully understand, making sure you use correct terminology, and really not masking anything or downplaying anything. As a member of the trans community, you are now my favorite online doctors.
about using the “correct” terminology, why am i not allowed to want to be called biological over cisgender? it feels like my beliefs are being ignored and disrespected
@@iamz_mbie That's the point mate. They don't care about being fair, they are just butthurt every time someone makes fun of them
“You probably think about your gender identity when out in public”
Mikes face: “no, I don’t remember ever doing that” lol
Well yeah cis men are like the least likely to ever need to think about that.
Well for most people in the world man or woman, male or female these are WHAT you are, not WHO you are.
@@KL-hr7rk”cIS mEn.” 🤡🤡🤡
@@StankyTheKlown yea, these sad excuses for humanity don't have more identity than what they are. probably because they never work and study and don't have any ambitions in life beyond simple pleasure... which is even a consciousness level lesser than animals which have a more serious task of surviving and keeping up their health.
@@KL-hr7rk
💀
Ok buddy
Dr Mike I'm really enjoying these longer form podcast episodes. It's so much more meaningful and informative delving into the subject over a 2-3 hour episode rather than 30 mins. I hope you keep this format going!
Not everyone has the time to watch long form videos.
@Demonetization_Symbol Then watch/listen to it in sections? That is definitely a you problem.
@@LuckyPigeon1111there are good sides to both - for nuanced health topics i prefer the long formats where there is more information provided and more discussions had vs a shorter summarized video
@@LuckyPigeon1111it’s not a video it’s a podcast. Podcast are generally longer, just don’t watch podcasts and you’ll be fine.
What is going on culturally when we're young absolutely impacts how we think about this stuff. For example, my mother is what I would call gender fluid, but that wasn't something that was well known when she was growing up. She was growing up in the 70s, after the publication of the book Sybil, when MPD/DID was the pop psychology topic of the era. When I was a kid she described herself as having "multiple personalities, and not all of them are women." She does not experience a loss of awareness or dissociation when these "different personalities" come forward, however. She does not have DID, this was just the language that was available to her explain her experience. Since she didn't grow up thinking about her gender identity in the terms we use now, and since many times she feels more like a woman than not, she still self identifies as a cis woman and uses she/her pronouns. This is absolutely in line with what Dr. Turban says about how the older generations conceive of the terms "trans" and "cis."
That's super cool! As a genuine comment/question, are you aware there's other ways of having "different personalities" (or "plurality" or "multiplicity") that isn't DID? DID is just a diagnostic label from a medical guidebook, but the experience of being many people is probably super old. As old as humankind. :)
@@inix2761 in a vague way, I am, but I am definitely not well informed about it. I was just trying to communicate my story as best I could, I didn’t mean to dismiss other variations of the human condition :)
@@scalylayde8751 Oh, that's not what I meant when I was bringing it up! It was more like "maybe that's something to ask your mom about and how she feels about it now?" Because to me, it sounds like your mom is plural, by how she discussed it, and I wondered if it would be fulfilling or exciting or give her some peace of mind to know she's not the only person in the world who has the same or similar experiences as her.
This reminds me kind of of my own background a bit. I’m 29 and I spent my first few years abroad with my family. Although I did pick up the language around me (French) during that time okay-ish, my parents and most of my closest friend always spoke Swedish to me during those years (we were in Luxembourg which has a very international population due to its many European Union institutions). During those years, I was a very “tomboyish” kid (or, more accurately, I didn’t really “think” about gender expression at all, though I leaned more towards “boyish” things like superheroes and action stuff or even - gasp - the uniquely masculine color palette of BLUES rather than PINKS). Because my family was in such a comfortable position financially, my mom could stay at home with me all the time, so I didn’t really “mix” with other children (except those who were my friends) until we moved back to Sweden and I had to go to pre-K with other kids for like six months, so whenever I mixed with kids other than my friends I never really cared about what they were saying about me. Then we moved back to Sweden and I had to hang out with kids whose language I understood. Literally after the first day when my mom picked me up she noticed I was sad and asked why and I replied “Because [some other dumb ass child] told me I can never be a farmer because I’m a girl”.
?????? We were like FIVE?
Wpath, that Jack Turban keeps making false claims about thinks that ppl with "multiple personalities" (it's actually a popular pseudoscience that we got lots of teen girls identifying with in the past, sound familiar?), can be transitioned even if none of the genders of the "alters" match up.
Let that sink in.
I want to throw something out there as a cis woman: I have PCOS and it interfered with my breast development. I experienced a lot of shame and what I think is gender dysphoria because of it. I got a breast lift and reduction a few days after I turned 17, and I haven't thought about my breasts since. It completely alleviated the feeling of not being a woman. Gender affirming care isn't just for trans people. Any one of us might need it. They don't just consider this as an option for trans adolescents.
Re: trans people in sports, he didn't get into this, but trans women who've been on HRT for more than a year tend to have cardiovascular function, lung capacity, and muscle function in line with cis women. Lia Thomas is a good example of this, actually. We can see that she did well in men's swimming, then declined when she started HRT, and then performed at the same level once she switched to women's swimming (meaning she placed the same in women's swimming that she had in men's swimming, not that her times were on par with that of men or her pre-transition times). Lia Thomas won competitions, but she also came in second, third, fourth etc. In the competition that sparked all the controversy, cis women broke records (Kate Douglass out-performed everyone by a mile), and Lia Thomas broke no records.
Something else worthy of consideration is that high school, middle school, and even rec-league sports are taken SUPER seriously in American culture. But the reality is a high school track team does not have the same stakes as the olympic games. The vast majority of people playing sports in their youth will never be olympians or play professional sports.
Do you have any studies that confirm what you're saying regarding lung capacity? It is often linked to lung size and the development of the ribcage, which do not change after hormone therapy.
And your argument does not seem to take into account bone structure, shoulder width, ligament and tendon strength, overall size, leg length, etc.
@@superette. There's one called "Cardiopulmonary Exercise Testing in Transgender and Gender-Diverse Patients" that was published in 2024.
There are a few observational studies of trans athletes. The sample sizes are small (sometimes only one person), but they consistently show the same finding. Samantha Luxe has a video breaking some of those down.
As is said in the podcast, trans people are less likely to be athletes in the first place, which is a barrier for research. You need to have an athlete willing to undergo testing prior to transition and tailor their gender affirming treatment to the limitations of the study, which raises a lot of ethics issues.
Also, people weren't very interested in this question until it became controversial, so we're seeing more research now. That said, some of the research in sports medicine is being funded by anti-trans athletic organization, which is muddying things up a bit.
Additionally, it's hard to factor in genetics unless we test all the cisgender family members of a person, too. But once you do that, you have to account for age, athletic training, etc. If the trans person is an athlete, but no one else in the family is, we can't directly compare and same for vice versa.
You might note the study I cited is concerned with health and whether doctors should use sex assigned at birth to monitor heart and lung function. It's not worried about transgender athletes. We're more likely to see research like this because it's answering a medical question related to care, not tackling a political question.
@@rileyallen489 aerobic capacity And lung capacity are not the same and this was tested on 16 people. I think more studies are needed and other elements defenitly matter too (bone structure, height, ligaments,..)
@@superette. I don't disagree that more and better studies are needed. However, listening to trans people on the subject, I've learned that the community is quite skeptical of study participation, especially in the worsening of the political climate.
But we always have to ask ourselves what we're studying and why. Are we studying this to better inform the ongoing care of trans people or settle a manufactured political issue? If a proposal for a study is the latter, it's unlikely to be proposed by any reputable institution, let alone secure funding or pass an ethics board.
As I said initially, our observations are promising for trans athletes, though not applicable to every sport. The best data we have is limited to cardio-intensive activities.
But at the end of the day, the sports question is more pressing to conservatives with an agenda, not the health of the trans community as a whole.
I've got PCOS as well, though mine shows as Hirsutism, and oh boy... having hair grow on your face can really impact how you feel as a woman 🥲
I want to thank your editor for taking the time and investing in really good subtitles. I listened while cooking, and sometimes could not hear well over the sound of the fan. These subtitles are so clear! Thank you. Very much.
Dear Dr. Mike
I mean you truely are an astute and perceptive podcaster. The way you bring nuance to any topic is just amazing. Till now I had only seen this topic being discussed politically at large. Not so much medically unless it's gender affirming surgeries or trauma. I didn't know the gender discussion could have so much depth. So much support to you 💪
If you're interested to explore the many facets of gender more, especially on a philosophical standpoint (but still considering science) I highly recommend watching Contrapoints or DemonMama videos. I think the both of them bring a lot of interesting points about gender and I think they tend to be very fair and considerate of how misogyny and toxic masculinity play into gender presentation and the trans community.
Wholeheartedly agree with this comment
Pathologizing is not the same as stigmatizing. We can be precise in our language!
I’m trans and studying psychology and I totally agree!
Their point was that pathologising leads to stigma.
It's great to be precise as medical experts. But as Dr. Mike said, that language is then used colloquially, becoming imprecise. For example, as they mentioned in this discussion, people calling transgender people mentally ill.
@@TheNashBurgerstigma will always exist but pathologizing is important for diagnosis. Everything has stigma, you just gotta learn to live with it. At the end of the day there are harder challenges than stigma. I don’t think making things inaccurate by not pathologizing will end the stigma. It’s up to the people to advocate against it. And nobody is stigmatizing the lgbt community because of a psychology book, most people don’t know what the dsm is. It’s the bad apples in the lgbt community that’s making people stigmatize them. If you actually want to change stigma then go address those bad apples in the community not by de pathologizing.
@@Lamle54243 "And nobody is stigmatizing the lgbt community because of a psychology book" Outright false. One of the contributors to the dsm is one of the most cited people by people stigmatizing trans people.
@@Lamle54243 did you even watch the interview? Stigma often ties itself in with gender dysphoria causing more issues. Addressing the "bad apples" has historically, done nothing.
This is the kind of discussion I love to see. Polite, knowledgeable, informed, rational and empathetic. I learned a lot and even identified some of my own biases. Thank you for this video.
Just 3 mins in, "why is the word normal harsh?" Can't let go of the thought
Wasn't it the word "norm" those are somewhat different
A lot of people are used to “normal” being connotatively linked to good and being outside of normal as inherently bad.
Some kids shows from my childhood had bullies who would pick on kids who were kinda quirky and were told they weren’t normal in a clearly negative tone. Whenever a lot of people who think homosexuality is a sin say that gay people aren’t normal, it is very evident that that is meant in a negative tone.
Normal is often a loaded word whenever we start talking about people, and that’s why people who work all sorts of different people try to avoid its use.
@@NotSoCivilEngineerI was also coming in to say that. In a purely academic sense norms or averages are fine. In a social sense norms are often divisive. You aren't like us leading to stigmas and ostracization. It is fine as far as it goes generally but definitely have to pay attention to the tone and context.
Being normal is really rare. In individual parts of an identity (such as gender identity) most people when identify with a primary group. But because identity is such a large swath of topics being abnormal in a certain way is very common. Thus people shouldn't feel shame for being different, hints why pointing out normalities problems is important.
Yeah, that needed to be addressed a bit more. Being normal implies anything else is abnormal, hence wrong. Being **ordinary** removes the stigma. "Ordinarily, people identify with the gender their bio sex indicates, and are opposite-sex attracted, but sometimes, people are not in those categories." That sounds better than, "Normal people identify as their bio sex, and like the opposite sex. Abnormal people don't." I'd rather be "extraordinary," versus "abnormal."
My opinion as a trans man is that gender dysphoria should be considered a pathology. This is an unusual thing to experience that requires treatment. If it wasn't then people like me would either be biologically the sex that we try to appear as or would be fine with being seen as the gender that usually goes with our biological sex.
It kind of is seen as a pathology isn’t it? The treatment is just transition not anti depressant or some other medication
I mean in order to get the right gender affirming care it has to be seen as a pathology but it’s more nuanced than that because not all trans people will experience gender dysphoria and there are ranges and levels to gender dysphoria.
Who says it's not considered pathological?
Guys... an opinion is an opinion. Gender dysphoria might already be seen as a pathology, and this guy just agrees or something. An opinion doesn't always have to be a different one. 🤦♂️
I felt this psychiatrist wanted to say more but stopped himself in fear that he would be seen negatively by his patients or trans community. Instead of speaking medically, I feel he was catering to people's feelings.
"does the fact that stygma exists mean that we shouldnt call it a pathology?" perfect, Dr. Mike
exactly
@@PashaHajman I was answered incredibly well, maybe you didnt fully understand it?
@@PashaHajman Okey I see. I personally did have a few issues with the interview, but most comes from the fact that this topic is so loaded people arent really free to talk anymore. Everyone has to be incredibly carefull which limits a good discussion.
This goes both ways, both sides get attacked very fast and easily.
I think he awnsered most stuff really good, but its very noticable that he is very carefull through out thhe interviewed. Most obvious was the part about sports. While what he says is mostly true, he really didnt want to touch the problems that certainly exist there.
But I dont think its was because he wouldnt agree or wants to push something, it really seemed just too hot of a topic.
@@Miriam-nb9sh man I just posted a nice long comment and it didn't come through. This comment section is broken :/
@@PashaHajman I think it shows for me.
I aggree mostly but would hhave two questions.
Do you think its possible that for example puberty blockers didnt get touch to deeply for the sake of simplicity? In education it can be really difficult to choose the right level of complexity. Making that decision on the spot is even more difficult. He might saw more value in what said than what you expected.
Im very confident that when you go to a doctor whho actually prescribes these meds they will talk and inform you about everything.
In case of detransitioners I think he jumped the opportunity to say something that I have never heard before. I dont have an opinion on it yet, Im still thinking about it.
He is essentially challenging the numbers, by looking at them in a more complex way.
"not everyone who stops medication is detransitiong" but in statistics they are listed as that.
The other thing is that I think this is soooo incredibly individual. It differs from person to person, where they live and even in what decade they transitioned. There are detransioners who openly say they have lied to their doctors to get what they want. Or they thought this is what is expected of them.
20 years ago alot of trans people went for surgery whitout actually wanting it. Because if they openly said they dont want it they might not get any other treatment they wanted or needed.
PS: Im from europe too, so the USA and england is a bit difficult for me. I dont even understand thheir political system.
Dr. Mike did an amaaazing job at being open minded while still making hard questions. I also love how he mostly asked questions instead of affirming stuff. I also see a strong bias on the other side tho. Where Dr Mike askes a question and the question was kinda avoided... but in general was very interesting
DR MIKE IS EXACTLY THE DOCTOR THAT NEEDED TO COVER THIS..... HE HITZ THE NAIL ON THE FREAKING HEAD!!!!!!
What nail did he hit?
@@stringX90asking the same, at the end talking about sport start calling tran woman man, is like wtf!, and trying to legitimise the Cas review that was politically mandated, and didn’t include the most relevant research on the issue.
@@tilly704 but trans women are a category of men. By the definition of women, we cannot say trans women are categories of women so him referring to trans women as men, was probably to help him get his point across and be clear on who he's talking about.
Because he agrees with you?
@@tilly704 The cas review was legit. Wake up already.
This video was extremely important for me. For someone who supports trans people to be who they are, cuz at the end of the day it doesn’t impact me, but I have always been uncomfortable with the topic because of how society treats it. I’m an engineer and scientist by trade so I have always struggled finding resources to help me better understand all of this from a CIVIL, OBJECTIVE CONVERSATION. Thanks for doing this Dr Mike.
A scientist that thinks a person's feelings take precedence over their biology.
@@nikobellic570 My guy the video explains in the first 20 minutes the difference between sex (biology) and gender within the first 20 minutes.
@@nikobellic570 by that logic, suicidal people biologically feeling like they want to kill themselves should go kill themselves, because their feelings shouldn't take precedence over their biology, what kind of logic is that?
@@parkourchinx7978 aside from that, we could relate gender to biology, neurology specifically, and trans people's brain seem to share qualities with the gender they identify with.
So like, hey, even biologically speaking being trans is valid.
@@nikobellic570aren't our feelings part of our biology? Saying that is like saying the mind isn't part of the body... Which it is, of course.
As a religious teenager, this video has been more than eye-opening. I truly wish some of my friends who are going through or have gone through this would explain it like y'all have. I am an open-minded man who believes in a higher power, but also a choice. We were given free will for a reason. Thank you for this.
I hope more people find this and are open to change as I am!
True. We aren't the ones who are supposed to judge those who decide not to live through God's commands and moral principles. People have the freedom to choose whether they want to or not. And although we do have an obligation to warn people about the consequences of their choices, we should respect them either way.
@@darkaquatus and also I believe that trans people do live through god's command but that is a freedom of opinion, it's okay if you dont think so, to be honest I dont really care, but I do care when peoeple vote so that I dont have the right to live like I want to, the way that I am happy. If it doesn't activly harm others than why make it illegal?
if you would read the bible in depth, free will does not exist. its predestination which means its not puppeteer strings attached. God predestined before time, which is why you feel like you have control in the moment but he knows every move you make before you make it.
@@darkaquatus And yet, there you are judging. How do you know this is not God's command? Do you know His every thought? Did He put you in command to judge all of His creations? Have you read the Bible? There is nothing in it that addresses gender identity. You do not have an obligation, moral or otherwise, to "warn" people, which is really translation for "you must always agree with me because I am right and you are not." Listen to all of this video. This is exactly what Dr Turban was addressing in the segment of external conflicts from other people. People do not have any rights to interfere in other people's lives and make it Hell for them to be happy.
@@firstname7470 I'm not sure why you're making this political, because I never mentioned any of that. sambored9387 did the exact same thing, which is weird to me. There's more to life than politics, you know? As a Christian who's not supposed to be of this world you should know this. Anyway, I'm not sure what you're accusing me of. I am not judging anyone. I am judging certain actions, though. Again, this is a core Christian principle. You must be aware of this.
So why aren't you instead being specific? What do you believe to be part of "God's command", which you believe I disagree with?
Thank you so much for this conversation! As a school nurse this was really lovely to see this conversation being had by medical professionals.
It’s weird how they say we’re getting quick free irreversible treatment or something when I literally can’t get my hands on hormones and I’m almost through with puberty
Depends maybe on state or country...
Might be a blessing...
I have not fully realized who I was until I was at least 32.
And I'm still developing, accepting a lot unchangeable things about myself as I go.
You don’t need hormones to feel normal. You need to accept yourself to feel normal. Don’t become another cash cow for big pharma. You’re fine the way you are.
@@hahahahhahahhaha786what a useless comment
@@sus425 you’re evil
I already know this comment section is gonna be wild...
FR
something tells me it will be fine for now but in a week it will be so divided
@@FemboyKaiSakuyeah I agree. Most people are reasonable and that’s what’ll show early on. Unreasonable outrage will probably surface later but hopefully doesn’t gain any traction
@@FemboyKaiSakuNo but like honestly tho. Like, in the beginning it will be level-headed respectful conversations. But as soon as just one transphobe shares/comments without actually watching the video, chaos will break loose.
(Trans pride btw 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈)
Just make sure you use transphobe for rhose who hate them specifically for being trans, and not those who are disgusted, or disagree with their choices. @mxstrikk
Confession: Sometimes, I watch episodes of _The Checkup_ at 1.5x or even 2x speed. I watched this one in spurts over four days at regular speed because the topic is so important. I appreciate you taking the time to cover such a complex topic. ❤
Perfectly normal. That’s how I listened to college lectures and online tutorials:)
I listen to every video at 2x speed.
Love that this is an actual calm and collected discussion about this. Its very refreshing to hear this from two intelligent and compassionate individuals❤
One thing that's so important, especially when you're involved in activism, is to seek out information which disconfirms your beliefs. When you're passionate about a subject, you're much more likely to have blind spots like confirmation bias and in-group bias. You may actively cherry-pick data which supports your beliefs and criticize data which doesn't. Science is a valuable tool, but as history shows it can easily be misused by people who want to make up their own truths (e.g. Social Darwinism, Lysenkoism). And for those who are concerned, Doctor Mike does ask some challenging questions to the interviewee in this podcast. 🙌
So many people are passionate but also unserious
@@RunBayou You fit that bill tbh, seeing your comments
@@evad687 And you seem like a stalker so not much better there.
Activists will never do this because they know they will find so much counter info that utterly disproves their 'beliefs'. They have found a wonderful way to express their personal desire/need to be antagonistic, and will NEVER stop because it empowers them.
I'll keep this in mind 👍
Thank you for this, Dr. Mike. I’m a pre-medical student trying to navigate these issues in university, and I’ve been struggling about how to navigate social/political correctness with science and what I understand. It’s great to watch you, a doctor, tackle this problem directly. Thank you.
Hi! I'm a trans pre-medical student and I understand that navigating these issues can be a little precarious as an outsider. The best pieces of advice I can give are to read (there are lots of wonderful articles on pubmed on the science/medicine of gender identity) and to *try* talk to trans people. We are an unfathomably diverse community and our stories are as complex as the human experience itself. Be curious, open minded, and don't be afraid to ask questions (within reason) a lot of us love to talk about how we navigate gender.
Lots to digest. Thank you to two caring professionals👍🏾
If you’re studying hard sciences, remember this. Facts don’t care about your feelings.
@@JaneyDoe-gx2vb You're just wrong. Your feelings bias you, even in hard science. Stop with this bullshit.
To VictoriaDonerty - If you're really curious about trans people from a learning perspective (which the majority of us are willing to engage with in good-faith conversations) you shouldn't ever be concerned with asking trans people questions to try to understand. Most of us do experience people just trying to berate and hate us so we might be cautious at first. Just as Cyclea stated.
Ask us! Don't infer for us!
Read the best quality evidence. This unfortunately excludes everything Turban has ever written. However, if you look at the data which he manipulates to his own conclusions you'll quickly see for example most girls identify as trans due to pubertal difficulties, most males are adults and the old standard of young gay boys is now third.
Read the systematic reviews of evidence (Cass Review, Finland, Sweden etc.) and the longitudinal studies. Read both the absolute madness that is Wpath direct from them (eunuchs, non-verbal autistic child transition, non-binary experiments, transitioning ppl with "alters" with multiple genders) and the Wpath files where everything they say publicly is rubbish.
I think what got missed in the comparison between fraternal and identical twins vs siblings and identical twins. The comparison using fraternal twins allows for the sharing of the womb at the same time. In the case that some incidence of GID or Gender Dysphoria might be affected by hormonal conditions in the womb rather than genetically predisposed, this might make the twin comparisons more definitive than just comparisons of siblings.
It also means that the parent's parenting methods are likely to be more similar between both kids, since they have the same knowledge for both kids at the same age. Whereas if one kid is (for example) three years older, perspective and knowledge and life factors will mean parenting is more different between children (ofc, parenting can still be different between twins, but there are less factors acting on it)
That would maybe be a control for “nature vs nurture”. But, given my own history, I know that I hid being trans from my parents because of the vitriol my father expressed about “freaks”. I don’t believe that a parent can influence being trans, but they can definitely influence whether or not you can trust them with knowing you are trans.
And also, the difference in age might be a factor. Like first born vs second born children often being treated differently
Something I never hear about is adoption studies. If people are raised by someone they're not related to how does that change outcome chances? It seems like scientists are so quick to say that something must have a genetic component because it runs in families. Well genes run in families, but so do learned behaviors, especially with shared environments!
I think this is a good point to consider! I remember reading that youngest children are more likely to be queer because of hormone washes in the womb, or at least it was a theory, but I'm not sure what the current science says on that.
My take was that this is supposed to measure genetics vs early life conditioning. People have the same question about turning out gay: is it nature or nurture? Well, twins live almost the same lives day by day since they're the same age, bunk together and will go almost everywhere together for their earliest years. For other kinds of siblings, age difference and pecking order play a huge role in difference in upbringing. The only additional thing I'd account for is male/female fraternal twins because they certainly will be treated differently by their parents even during those early years
I am a trans teen living in sf and i gasped when i saw Dr. mike talking to Dr. turban, MY psychiatrist! I love Dr. Mike and it means so much for him to use his platform to help others learn (and learn himself) about what is largley misunderstood.
He has very kind eyes.
That’s awesome! Stanford medical faculty like Turban are rock stars! Question: UCSF is closer for you. Does that place not have the same level of expertise/care for trans issues?
Wow, I was so scared of checking the comments section... But I was actually pleasantly surprised at how accepting people are here!
Its because the theme of the video is a generally "pro trans" outlook. If it were promotijg anti trans stuff then trans people and supporters would just skip it while anti trans people would be likely to leave comments because they agree
Vice versa is true too so since it's "pro trans" then anti trans people are more likely to skip it and then pro trans people are more likely to comment since they agree
Same here
@@cubsfanman-nx6pg By that you mean, if it was unbiased and objective it would be considered anti-trans, but because it is pro-trans the hate mob hasn't come to rip it to shreds.
@@PuzzlesocksAre you good blud? All they said was that people who agree with the video stuck around, and people who don't didn't. It's literally not more deep than that.
People like to stick to places where their opinions are accepted. Not rocket science.
@@doe4003 From my experience, people tend to comment more about things they disagree with, especially those of a leftist persuasion. Also let's be real, a vast majority of the disagreement has been automatically deleted by UA-cam, especially concerning this topic.
Omg Bruce and Bryan Reimer. John Money was a doctor in my city. That family went through so much. Both of the twins have died by suicide. That whole thing was so fucked.
It's particularly sick that his ideas are being put into practice to this day.
He sexually abused them both and many other children. The boys weren’t the only ones they did this to.
when talking about sports; There's always a big focus on trans women, when - because of these new discriminatory laws - many trans men are now forced to compete with cis women, even after/during their transition, sparking a whole new amount of controversy because they are at that point actively taking testosterone.
Has there been a trans man that has won a popular competition against men.
@@calebgibson55No....apparently only equestrian and perhaps archery sex makes no to little difference.
Trans need to create their own sports category as women and physically disabled did.
There was a swimming competition created for trans swimmers and no one entered. Hmmmm
Yea, I hated that part of the conversation. The problem is trans women participating with other women. I've never heard a debate about weather trans women should compete with Men. Its a women's issue, not just a trans issue. I'm glad that doctor Mike pointed out that with all the empathy towards trans women, we also need to have empathy towards women.
@@lexaharpell5823how many of us do you think there are?? And of that population, how many of us play sports? There just isn’t enough trans people out there to create our own category.
I think it's just something that is so difficult for people who don't experience it to even imagine it, let alone relate to the experience. So with alot of stuff like that, people just tend to write it off as hoopla and conjure up a motive in their head.
I often tell people it's basically like being left handed. I don't know why I'm left handed, and I've tried writing with my right hand and just can't. It's not something I chose, it's just how it is.
@@nobody.of.importance Dexterous preference has nothing to do with being mentally ill...
If someone thinks they are fat despite being 90lbs, it's the same thing.
Of course you write it off and tell the person they are insane and to get help
@@nobody.of.importanceimagine someone using left/ right handedness to prove pedophilia is normal lol
@@Digger-Nickgosh, if only you were around to tell folks that 50 years ago, when they would beat kids for using their left hand.
I would love to see Jamie Raines join the conversation. He is a trangender man with a phd in psychology. His thesis was on being trangender and he just came out with a book "the t in lgbt".
Same
Liar and gaslighter who throws away anything that doesnt affirm to preconceived idea ... Jamie is not a right person to talk about this
I’d love to see Jamie join in :)
@@synctrox9679and your evidence for your claims are what? I'd like to see the evidence one by one for your harsh claims.
@@mina6mina i blocked that liar but mostly him defending trans people in women sports with stupid made up reasons
9:40 so like hear me out, wouldn't this mean that we put waaaay too much stock into what culture has to say about our identities? Like maybe we end up putting ourselves even further in a box instead of becoming more free?
Edit: Separately, my concern with kids is whether puberty blockers are unhealthy for them. Bone density being a big one, but are there any other issues? Or is it not as bad as I understood it to be? I know that estrogen/testosterone are super important for brain development as well. Does it affect that? Also, is there therapy to help people accept both their body and their gender identity at the same time? Just for health concerns, I know a that it can cause serious health issues to have physical conversion therapy.
Aaaaalso, if anyone has been trying to decide if therapy is a thing they should do, do it. I did exposure therapy for OCD and it changed my life. Definitely recommend. Don't be afraid to seek help if you need it, even if you think you aren't worthy/ready/needy of it.
@baileybasinger3455 Exactly!
I liked what Dr. Mike said about identity and putting less stock into it. I thought it was interesting g that Jack seemed to dismiss it a little bit. My first thought was that it was because without over identifying ourselves with abstract or cultural norms, there isnt much to stand by, except the potential mental health issues that people face with how their body looks. Our society puts so much stock into identity.. it doesn't seem helpful all the time.
On a base level men are still men. Women are still women. Those roles have been changing over the decades to think biology has no play in societal roles or in general is just crazy.
We are more freer now than we were 100 plus years ago. That's just a fact. How much freer does it need to be?
This is clearly people that are not able mentally to accepting their biology society will not bend to more than two, two genders cuz that's what our whole. Human civilization was built from.
Variation in roles can happen and it has.
Not agreeing or disagreeing I’m just curious: What is identity without culture?
@@BananaRama31 I totally agree, and the degree to which it is currently affecting vulnerable people is astonishing. Look in the trans subreddits and people are often discussing terrible issues with their medicalization and surgery, when instead they could have obtained better mental health care before making some of these decisions.
I don't understand why,but he avoided a lot of questions and kept saying things are "complicated" or "you should read my book". I don't wanna say he's not an expert,but with all due respect he doesn't sound like he knows much about anything. I was expecting answers but all I got was anecdotes and examples,occasionally he'd bring up research but nothing more. Weird responses, I really cared about this topic.
Because its psycology, its anecdotal what else would it be???
@@draalttom844I’m convinced you have no clue what you’re talking about
@@ryanthomas9306 im professionally mentally hill, psy can barely ever bring up hard evidence, only anecdotal
@@draalttom844you don’t think there’s hard evidence for dysphoria ?
What about dsd intersex conditions ? Lol they debunk you
@@draalttom844 It isn't a perfect science,but you should really think about what youre saying if you think psychology is anecdotal.
I found this to be a very helpful and thorough conversation- something that I find to be rare these days. It coincided with a visit of my niece who is transgender and who recently graduated from high school. She has been blessed with two very supportive parents. I can’t imagine how transgender people without supportive families navigate their respective journeys. I intend to listen through a second time and read Dr Turban’s book as well.
I look forward to the day when those parents are properly seen as child abusers.
Affirming a mentally ill person’s delusions isn’t compassionate or loving. Your nephew is now a permanent patient who is worth several millions of dollars to Pharma, therapists, and doctors. He’s also likely sterile, has an increased risk for cancer and osteoporosis, and can never go back if there’s regret one day when this fad goes away.
Hey cool. I count as a detransitioner now. I lost my Medicaid because I had a job that offered health insurance what I didn't know is the health insurance was going to cost me $1,200 a month which meant I couldn't afford anything. Couldn't afford to go to doctors couldn't afford prescriptions. And because I listened to the medical establishment and started getting my hormones from legitimate sources instead of some random person in Ukraine I ran out of supply. I've been off hormones for over a year now it's awful I hate myself I hate my life and I want to die. I've watched my body slowly remasculinized and I'm losing hair.
I’m so sorry that’s your experience. It’s sad how medical care is considered a for profit business in America and that insurance alone can be so expensive that people can’t even afford to use it.
I'm so sorry, that is probably very hard, sending hugs 🫂
That’s sad I get it but there are people who can’t afford insulin, or other medications who are life saving. The U.S medical system is messed up, but many countries do not even insure people who are trans, bc they don’t consider it as medically necessary. What I mean by that are the medications and medical interventions needed. Without them you will not die just transition back to your original gender. I feel sorry for you and understand that these things can be costly but that’s the thing for most life saving medications they are costly.
@@Mochiii26 I know you are trying to be compassionate, but for many people these medications are life-saving. Suicide rates among trans folks unable to obtain treatment are disproportionately high. If you think that they can overcome that simply by focussing on how other countries have worse healthcare systems or other people have more dire need of treatment I’m afraid you are mistaken.
America. The land of the free healthcare... *eagle screams*
Thank you for engaging in this topic at such length. ❤ We need people like you doing this in order to restore our ability to have national and international conversations. You do a great job of not only asking questions for your benefit but also representing questions from the larger audience. Dr . Mike you’re using your platform for good. Please know it’s appreciated ❤
I’m a transgender guy and honestly this was such a refreshing conversation to listen to. When I was a teenager I had a strong hate for my body because it didn’t aline with how I felt, recently it does not affect me as much. The first ten minutes I was holding my breath because I’m so used to this topic dissolving into a screaming match, or feeling demonized. But slowly the further on the conversation went the more I could breathe. It was so nice to listen to a nuanced topic actually be talked about with nuance.
37:36 mental health provider here: a combination of therapeutic approaches is almost always best. Specifically CBT with radical acceptance, so the fear is not irrational if it actually happened. It’s the anticipatory anxiety that’s irrational and so that is what you can challenge. You have to accept that anxiety is necessary to protect us, and to understand in your body when anxiety feels like fear that’s needed and when it doesn’t. But that is a process that takes time and talk therapy that a lot of people are not willing to commit to do because they don’t see results fast enough.
Questionnable approach. Might have the best immediate effect, but not necessarily the best.
Thank you for mentioning this. For many trans people, myself included, I think a common hurdle can be the fear of experiencing transphobia or discrimination.
The reality is those are experiences that very well may happen and many do face. For some, the resultant anxiety interfers greatly with their ability to function. In my opinion, CBT/radical acceptance can potentially help in those cases.
Also a mental health provider specializing in adults with childhood trauma and transgender mental Healthcare. Talk therapy is also seen and felt as scary when we are helping our clients become aware of their fear and anxiety in their bodies because it can feel very overwhelming initially. I always try to prepare my clients and have a very open contact policy if help is needed to talk through experience outside of therapy. Talk therapy is hard, but a good practitioner builds safety that fits and adjusts for their clients' needs.
@@Patrick-y4d1z “Almost always” and question my approach all you’d like. Is there a better approach you can enlighten us on that applies to every single trans person in this world? F all the way off with that nonsense.
@@mindyross1028 we share the same niche. Thank you for adding that. You’re exactly right. I do a ton of prep work. Obv coping skills for safety have to be there. Somatic treatments, actual rapport and trust not just I’m the authority, so you can believe me. I just didn’t think I needed to spell it all out for the internet.
What should we do for the kid in front of us presenting with gender dysphoria? Well, there is one thing we absolutely should NOT do and that's allow legislators to make the decision. The government has absolutely no business forcing such an important medical decision onto families.
Watch us.
Yes. This is the land of the free after all, why would we want to let the government control us or anyone else???
Hurting kids is already a crime, and the idea that LGBT folks disproportionately hurt children is just not true at all. (I'm not responding to you commenter, just the general anti-trans sentiment)
@@ribbrascalwatch you do what?
@@hannahstraining7476 meanwhile mandated covid vaccine. If legislators, and presidents acting as legislators, decide many medical decisions and medical practices, why not in the arena of sex/gender medicalization?
So, euthanasia should be legal?
A friend of mine had their medication taken away recently in Florida.
I’m trying my best to be there for them but I can see the decline, they went from smiling and giggling all the time to barely laughing at all within a few months, I can barely get them to talk anymore.
It’s awful.
I’ve already lost a trans friend and I don’t want to lose another.
Support your trans friends, it’s a terrible time.
That is terribly heartbreaking. I hope that your friend can get the care they need. And it’s good that you are there for them.
There are programs in various trans sanctuary states that can help your friend move before it's too late of they're interested. Minnesota has a program called OutFront that could be an invaluable resource for your friend. I don't know the names of any others, but with enough googling and the help of the trans risk assessment map by Erin in the Morning, you could definitely find more. There are ways to escape Florida and it's worth upending your entire life to feel safe and whole.
That's horrible. 💔 I hope things change and I also want politicians and bigots to keep their bs out of healthcare for humans. People deserve to be who they are born to be. Much love to your friend!!!! And to you. 💚
@@womanbei Artificially altering your body chemistry counts as how you're "born to be"? Are you 12? This is one of the stupidest comments I've read.
@@TheMattTrakkerread the room dude…
When I was younger, I always thought and felt like I was male. This thought stayed with me into my teens. I never really expressed this to anyone, not even a counselor. But I did eventually feel more akin to a tom-boy or just a woman who doesn't follow the feminine gender role. Watching this reminded me of this. It does make me wonder if it came from an underlying issue. Long story short, my biological father was neglectful of me, his only daughter. But he wasn't towards my brothers (other than my younger foster brother, who is biologically my cousin on my father's side). It's probably very possible I felt that way because I wanted validation from my biological father.
Hey Mike! I'm not trans or anything but thank you for making a video like this. It's definitely misunderstood and not talked about enough
Not talked about enough? Do you live in a cave?
@@RunBayouit’s talked about plenty in a political or social kind of way, but I rarely see professionals describing the science and medicine behind transgender medicine and terminology in such an open and non biased way as this
@@kiyarolynn Yeah
@@RunBayou
not properly / accurately discussed enough* im sure that's what the commenter meant
Its so refreshing to see medical experts talk about trans people as normal people, due to where I live many people are VERY close minded and seeing you guys communicate and talk about the transgender community is so important. Thank you so much
I remember being little and asking my mom if I was able to get rid of my female chest area, because it made me so uncomfortable to be thought of as a girl and that visible to everyone else, I wasn't even 7, I remember being little and making my long stomach length hair look short by tucking it into a baseball cap and hoodie and "Playing like a boy" or being in the shower and fashioning my hair to look short similarly so I could have short hair, even if for a moment because it meant I didn't need to be a girl right then. Trans people aren't trans because they are confused, or because of the internet, it's because of a genuine weight on your bones telling you when you look in the mirror the person looking back is not you, and wont be until you fix it
Can't disagree more. But you're probably still young too.
@@WilsonTexasRager way to belittle and dismiss people's struggles
Your childhood anecdote shows DEEP seeded trauma bro
Trans people by definition are confused
@@lavender0666 your struggles don’t automatically need to be validated
I think people may not be measuring correctly in thinking females are more susceptible to self-harm via social media influence. Similar to the diagnosis of eating disorders being much higher in women, but when you include excessive exercise with a focus on weight loss and/or being "built", men have "eating disorders" too.
I agree. Usually the same behavior shows up differently in men vs women, preventing people from getting help because they think they can’t have something since they’re not [gender].
You’re describing body dysmorphia, not an eating disorder.
@@jaxdragonvein8162 I didn't do a good job describing it, partly because everything I've read about eating disorders focused on women.
There is also the under diagnosis of this in men. I'd say more than one has one in order to maintain there abbs. You need a super low % for that lower for male then femail (I did use sex here purposely) as the fat on a male tends to group in areas around the abdomen more.
@@jaxdragonvein8162actually restrictive EDs can often include excessive exercise with caloric restriction. EDs and BDD are not mutually exclusive and people with EDs such as bulimia or anorexia do often have body image issues like BDD, or they can see their body for what it is and still think it’s not enough (which wouldn’t necessarily be BDD).
I'm not even 15 minutes in and this is already on of the best videos on medical transitioning I have seen.
It's so refreshing to hear the opinion of somebody who is both empathetic towards kids's experiences and works with them professionally. An actual expert! It has become so rare.
I love that you touch on topic like detransitioning, whether gender dysphoria can be classified as an illness or not, the different ways we have decided to determine someone's sex, etc. without judgement, treating them as the objective issues they are.
I was really scared this was going to be a right-wing video hahaha
You're one expert I trust so I looked up your channel name followed by "Transgender discussion" at some point and didn't find anything notable, so I'm really glad you're discussing this today!
I strongly recommend Mama Doctor Jones' videos on the topic, as well!
I watch these videos of Dr. Mike's when I'm frustrated with the discourse I hear in real life and see online that completely lacks nuance and comes from a place of such bad intent. The way Dr. Mike communicates with his guests heals me and my faith in humanity.
One thing above all Else i cannot understand is how and when did it become appropriate for politicians with zero medical background to make laws around physical and mental healthcare topics.
Politicians botched covid response in dismissing the seriousness and severity of the illness
Now politicians are inserting themselves into womens' health issues around abortion. Which in many cases are medically necessary)
And for a long time have been inserting themselves into transgender issues.
These are medical issues. They deserve objective and quality research in scientific studies.
What signs does someone have that they are trans. What medical interventions are appropriate when. What potential side effects are there. What is the benefits vs risks.
These are all things that have been studied and so far its been overwhelmingly positive to allow people to express themselves freely. Without bullying or discrimination. For some individuals that may include medical transition. And for those who find it necessary hugely benefit from this care.
We still need more research. Long term care, what additional medical needs may these people have.
And above all; we need to stop demonizing and discriminating against the transgender community and keep politicians out of medical decisions
How can you not see that the medical science field is highly compromised. They lied repeatedly about covid and its vaccine and have admitted as such. Laws regarding abortion and trans issues are generally about protecting children from undue harm. Ive yet to see a single example of why a child needs to alter their hormones or body medically it always boils down to veiled threats that if you don't let them they will hurt themselves. Sound like a crazy ex girlfriend
The idea of having powers means you're more trustworthy, I suppose.
That's what we do in my country. The medical councils are the ones proposing legislation for medical issues, and then they're compared against the constitution and may include votings
Actually, it’s politicians getting involved in places like CA that have an only affirming care law that have manipulated and skewed “the science.”
The discussion about the differences in BDD and Gender Affirming Surgery is really great, because a lot of people don't understand that need for some trans people. I started my medical transition when I was 25yrs old - 2 years after having gone through therapy, coming out to my family and being rejected, and struggling to find a PCP who could refer me to an LGBTQ+ affirming endocrinologist. I have gone back and forth about whether or not I should have bottom surgery at some point (still unsure if metoidioplasty or phalloplasty) because of where those kinds of results are at right now. I know it would significantly improve my feelings of genital dysphoria, but I don't want to risk having the results be worse than what functional organs I have now. If I had to settle for just a hysterectomy, I think I could live with that and be comfortable.
i felt a genuinely smile coming to my face the moment I read the title, thank you for talking about this.
Same! So happy for the educational opportunity for those who are supportive of the trans community!
you're smiling at the thought of kids being coerced and groomed into life altering changes? you're sick.
The fact that we are wasting this much time on something this ridiculous speaks volumes about the level of privilege and protection people have in the USA...
@@Digger-Nickcope cry baby
@@Digger-Nick I can't say I agree with you, and that's okay, just because there are bigger problems doesn't mean these have to be forgotten, each to their own, it really isn't a big deal imo
Before commenting based on the title, please recall that these discussions are not doctor mike agreeing with everything the other person is saying.
He will input his own knowledge based on his medical experience and argue if any statements are not to his knowledge, correct/safe from professional viewpoint.
Exactly
well yea but from a geniune and professional viewpoint any doctor agrees gender affirming care is needed
@@FemboyKaiSaku
Not all doctors agree on what gender affirming care is though. Or that gender identity is even a thing.
@@Patrick-y4d1z thats probably because theyre not taking the genuine professional viewpoint but instead their own feelings
He obviously does agree though, tbh I haven't watched the whole thing yet but there are points when I would've interjected and asked the guest to explain certain things where Mike just takes it for granted. Also, the whole basis of gender "affirming" care goes of the basis that you believe people can be born the wrong gender and there are ways to rectify it.
I finally after many days managed to walk the whole podcast. Both you professionals have taught me many things today. I love all the topics discussed. I would like to see a part two if it's possible. I learned alot
Thank you so much Dr. Mike for having this important conversation with an expert in his field! I have worked in transgender clinic from the Endocrine side of things and have been so annoyed by how the media makes it seem like we are just throwing hormones and puberty blockers at all our patients. In reality it is a very slow and individualized process, we don't even prescribe anything on the first or even second visit and make sure patients are well established with a psychologist first. Additionally, before starting any treatment both the parents and patient have to be on board, which can take several more visits and conversations. For T, parents have to sign a lengthy consent form detailing all the possible side effects, and most surgeons won't even consider doing gender affirming surgery until after age 18. In most cases, the patient is frustrated while waiting to finally start hormones because they know exactly who they are. I've now moved to a more conservative state but will keep fighting for my trans patients! I'm hopeful that we will have a restoration of medical care for all our transgender youth in the future!
You are destroying these children’s lives. Eventually, there will be massive lawsuits. You’re on the wrong side of history. CHILDREN CANNOT CONSENT. This is child sexual abuse.
your comment does not have the intended effect on me. I went in to healthcare to help children, and that’s what I will continue to do.
also, I think you are confused about what sexual abuse entails
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to Lastly, as I mentioned it is the parents signing the consent forms not the kid. But of course the kids have to verbally consent to the treatment as well. I don’t think I’m the one who will end up on the wrong side of history since transgender and nonbinary people will continue to exist…
@@juliannebullock8311 A child cannot comprehend the implications of this choice on the rest of their lives. You are permanently affecting their chances of a healthy relationship and the ability to have a healthy adult sex life and kids. No child understands this. Their brains are not yet developed enough. Society says they can’t even comprehend the consequences of a tattoo until they’re 18 and of drinking alcohol until they’re 21. And the parents are being coerced by doctors who tell them their child will end their life if they don’t do this. This is unethical. And it is sexual abuse. You are psychologically manipulating them on a path to genital mutilation.
Again, Doctor Mike hitting the tough subjects. Let it begin!
It really be a difficult conversation, religiois people just suck
He’s letting an activist spew total garbage. I’m unfollowing the second I’m done typing this.
Politics aside I've always found hormone treatment in general interesting.
I have Kallmann Syndrome and am unable to produce hormones naturally due to a suppressed pituitary gland. The lack of hormones and eventually being on TRT have had massive impacts on me mentally and physically. (I was on The Doctors TV show ~10 years ago when I was formally diagnosed.)
I imagine when it comes to someone who identifies as transgender there's likely a large hormone imbalance. With the "right" treatment they may lean more one way than another.
But it's clearly not just hormone related.
Trans here. Nope, you're completely wrong about hormonal imbalance.
@@friedrichwilhelmviktoralbe349 Stop lying, it's blatantly obvious most trans people are trans.
@@friedrichwilhelmviktoralbe349 you think trans “women” don’t have an advantage in sports, your opinion is irrelevant
no, trans people aren't known to have hormone imbalances with respect to their birth sex, and taking testosterone as a trans woman doesn't make you lean more toward taking testosterone, if that's what you mean
@@friedrichwilhelmviktoralbe349 Is life difficult being so ignorant?
The discussion about CBT and what constitutes a "rational" assessment of danger made my think about my own situation. I (30 F) was diagnosed with PTSD in 2019 after being violently sexually assaulted and almost murdered. The person who nearly killed me later threatened to find me (I had moved) and hurt me again. Though I was scared he'd follow through on his threat, I also knew he lived on the other side of the country, so I was able to tell myself that it was unlikely he'd go through all the trouble of finding me. That rational line of thought was at least somewhat comforting.
Then, a couple months ago, because of my husband's job, I had to move *into the city where my attacker lives.* It's a big city, but I can't shake the feeling that I will look up on a bus or subway or on the street someday and he'll be right there in front of me. It also feels way, wayyy more likely that, if he does find my address online somehow, he'll actually come find me, since I now live so close to where he lives, and it'd be "his turf," convenient for him, etc.
People close to me act like it's just as irrational for me to be afraid now as it was when I lived very far from him, but I 1) don't think it was that irrational to begin with to be afraid of a person who had almost killed me and who had threatened to find me, and 2) I think it's certainly more rational for me to be more afraid now than I was when I lived far away from him. I don't use public transit, I don't visit areas of the city close to where he lives, and I avoid neighborhoods and venues that I feel he might frequent.
That seems totally rational to me. But I could imagine a CBT therapist deeming my fear of using public transportation a symptom of PTSD to be treated, not a rational response to real, recently escalated danger. Idk. It's so, so easy for people who haven't experience trauma to tell people who have that the world is a safer place than it actually is. I get that it's "nicer" and "easier" to imagine that the world is safe and nothing bad is going to happen, but that's just so clearly not the case for so many people. And invalidating people's rational fears is harmful, not helpful.
I think it’s both; like for you, fear of being on public transit is valid but if it causes you to be unable to leave the house it’s a problem. A well informed psychologist would help you work to find a healthy sense of safety without paranoia. A person who fears fire after being trapped in a burning building shouldn’t have to be ok with bonfires, but needs to be able to function with say a candles on a birthday cake. Fireplaces may be an issue for a decade, but baby steps.
If the paranoia is keeping you from forming positive relationships that would be a CBT situation. If you end up with a security system and a deadbolt or even a lovely protective trauma trained dog, that’s pretty normal.
You got this, I hope you find peace, and a psychologist that works well with you
I'm so sorry that happened to you. It must be hell. CBT is definitely not indicated for anything trauma related, had me end up in the hospital. Get a real therapist please. Take care ❤
I coach a Sunday league women's football (soccer) team. A few weeks ago we played against a team made up of transgender women and they walked over us, 8-1. They were by far the better team and went on to win the league.
Most of our players are good athletes, but they didn’t have the opportunity to play football at a young age because it was considered a boys’ sport. As a result, their technical skills and intuitive understanding of the game are limited- they did not grow up playing the game. On the other hand, transgender women we played against were skilled footballers who seemed to have played the game from a young age. They had access to a footballing education that our players were denied. I also assume they may have benefited from higher levels of testosterone, which can enhance athletic performance. The game felt rigged and unfair. In terms of footballing ability, the transgender players we faced would fit better in the men’s section of the sport.
However, I play in the men's section of our Sunday league and I’m fully aware that transgender players would most certainly face discrimination if they joined us. It’s unfortunate, but it’s a reality. Sunday league should be a fun and safe space for everyone, and we can’t ask someone to face discrimination.
Keeping this highly skilled team in the women's league is unfair to other teams, but moving them to the men’s league would be unfair and harmful to them. One possible solution might be to have these skilled players spread out across different teams, but selecting transgender women specifically feels morally wrong and wouldn’t lead to a fair solution. I’m not sure what a fair and sustainable solution is, so I’m sharing this here to see if anyone has any interesting ideas.
i really wonder if the skill issue would be the same in the states. over here it’s our women who dominate soccer. that’s the main “girl” sport so that difference wouldn’t be there
@@notreal-duh Biology is the issue. Not when you started playing. It’s 100% basic biology.
You do realize that you are saying the feelings of men are equivalent to unsafe and grossly unfair physical disadvantages the females are facing? Men need to get over it.
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to the people yearling about basic biology are usually the ones who have zero clue how biology works
@@FirstNameLastName-wt5to buddy you need to chill tf out and stop acting so rude.
I appreciate Dr. Mike asking questions that a lot of us might have but have never gotten a good answer to. I appreciate Dr. Turban answering them with expertise and not getting offended at them. I often struggle to find answers to these types of questions without facing judgment for asking them in the first place.
I really really loved this video, thank you for this Dr. Mike, and Dr. Turban, you both are amazing.
As a trans person, contrary to popular belief, I do like the difficult questions and topics regarding trans issues, and gender identity; the problem is too many asking the questions phrase them in a leading way, or are not coming to the table in good faith to learn or be open to a new perspective, they're coming to debate you on why you're wrong and delusional, and they're right and sane carrying a briefcase of assumptions and misrepresentations about what we believe and think of our own bodies and identities but never actually hearing us. On top of that it can be frustrating as a trans person to be asked these academic level questions that someone like Dr. Turban is more equipped to explain that the average person, but we as trans people sometimes get expected to be academics on our own identity, psychology, and medical data about the procedures we go through that it can be exhausting. We can't always give all the answers, sometimes there are questions better deffered to experts, and sometimes, it just gets tiring constantly being placed in a position where you need to explain academic level topics, to people completely new to the topic, and/or are in bad faith and not actually interested in anything you have to say, no matter how well-worded.
LONG RAMBLE ASIDE;
In short, i appreciate Dr. Mike coming to the table in good faith, i feel that was evident by this talk, how the questions weren't leading, and how he was able to accept being wrong or the idea he may need more knowledge on this subject, and to look into it further beyond this talk alone. Good faith is a breath of fresh air cause these topics can be genuinely interesting, inciteful, and worthwhile, when both parties are interested in learning, growing, and humility.
Please do some reels from this episode to showcase the highlights from this episode for people who won't take 3 hours to watch/listen to it.
Or for people who will forget most of it due to whatever is happening in their mind, their brain or their life.
No
The episode has been broken down into various timestamps. If there's a particular topic that interests you pick the time stamp and watch that section.
Tbh this is why there's so much confusion and hostility now.
People can't absorb info and need it broken down into 10 second sound bites. A terrible way to get new information for a complex topic
@@justifano7046yep.
I really dislike that Turban thinks schizophrenia needs to be depathologized. Destigmatized is one thing, but it is unquestionably a disease by most any measure. Trivializing serious conditions in his pursuit to make some other condition "normal" does a disservice to the whole of society and shows he cares about activism more than truth.
Hey, Dr. Mike! Love how composed you are during controversial conversations like this. You have a track record of encouraging balanced, thoughtful discussions - something I don't see as often as I should. Thank you!
Dr Mike, I really hope you have masters-level mental health clinicians on your show in the future, as we provide the bulk of behavioral health services in the US, not psychiatrists. While the medical lens is an important one, psychiatrists are never going to have the same perspective that say (me, a social worker) will have working in environments that psychiatrists do not, because they don’t get paid as little as we do (which is why they don’t work in many of the environments we do). As a school social worker, I’m going to have VERY different insight than a psychiatrist that may sit in an office or research the topic. Ground-level experiences are important.
Anywho, hope to see more social workers, marriage and family therapists, etc. on your show. Psychiatrists and psychologists are not the end all be all of mental health-even in medically-relevant topics like this.
May times psychologists and psychiatrists are wrong on issues and treatments. Even major famous psychiatrists like Sigmond Freud have been found to have been wrong how they diagnosed and treated people. In eugenics, we had psychologists and psychiatrists supporting that destructive movement. We had these professions support barbaric medical procedures like lobotomies.
In 10, 50, or even 100 years, we will look at pushing transgenderism as a solution to childhood issues as just as barbaric and destructive.
Very true. I'd also love to hear about this topic from a trained Nurse Practitioner/Physician's Assistant- they've been demonized in places like Florida for not having experience/authority to treat trans people, but they receive plenty of training & education & are invaluable in the healthcare field, regardless of specialty. They also spend more time doing patient outreach than a physician will, so they often have a holistic view & know when to delegate something to a different professional that is more experienced.
@@ZijnShayatanica Why would he have a nurse practitioner on? NPs go to school for significantly less time than doctors and to say they know much less medically would be an understatement. They also don’t have the same degree of hands-on education. That is absolutely not to say that they are not very important-because they absolutely are-but on a podcast where he’s talking to experts? I don’t see how one could be other than if they were just talking about their experience being a NP.
I also disagree with the idea that many have a more holistic view. By actively knowing less than a physician, they cannot diagnose with the consideration of every ailment it could be. Of course NPs will have to delegate to specialists more-they don’t have the same skill set. Doctors have a higher baseline of knowledge to treat and diagnose, and good doctors will delegate to a specialist when need-be. In my experience, more NPs will assume they know instead of consulting a specialist.
The only reason NPs get “demonized” is because many genuinely believe they are as knowledgable as physicians and don’t correct people who refer to them as “doctors” which is insulting to people who go through the gruelling process of medical school and residency.
@phe.mp3 are you a nurse or a doctor? I don't know a single NP that fancies themselves as a doctor or wants that level of responsibility... if they did, they'd move onto medical school. Seeing prospectives of mental health PA or NP would be interesting and I don't think it's fair to completely write them off.
Just a note: a marriage and family therapist is usually a psychologist, or sometimes a psychiatrist. If it's neither, it's not a marriage and family therapist you should trust.
I do agree that having people beyond physicians can offer a broader perspective, but it's important for Dr Mike to feel able to speak to those professionals on the same terms he would speak to another physician, which isn't always easy.
The comments section so far gives me hope for this community. Great video as always, doc!
One of the good things about tbe audience Dr Mike has cultivated is theyre pretty level headed.
Very different from the debate bro communities popping up that pretend to be willing to hear differing discourse
What gives me hope is that there is debate, discussion, and even disagreement, but all with underlying respect and civility.
Gayy
Its only been 2h
You can´t say what you think on youtube, they ban people with opinions while people worshipping a being that killed the whole world are protected.
It's nice to see this on the main channel of such a popular creator, and a doctor at that!
I had gender dysphoria for years and thought I was trans. I suspect it was because I was molested by my father (and others) from a young age and femininity made me feel vulnerable. I wonder if this is being accounted for or screened for in some way.
damn such a good point. we need more data of people like you, not the brainwashed stupid mass
Well, like with all things that have to do with brains it's a spectrum. A lot of people can get dysphoria even when they feel their own gender, and that's normal. I think a lot of echo chambering between both sides has sort of gotten it to the point of "dysphoria means trans" when it can be a whole slew of things. As they talked about in the video, there are people like tomboys, or the more recent (or recently accepted, rather) femboys who can have gender dysphoria, or just don't identify with the social feminine/male norms. Which is completely normal, and they casually just stride with what they do like for themselves.
Please inform me if I'm getting things wrong I'm still learning all these things
It is. You're supposed to go through like a year of psychiatric visits before you're allowed to get on hormones. If you're lucky. Usually it ends up being a minimum of three years, some people upwards of two decades.
So sorry that happened to you. I got the impression from Dr. Turban that those kinds of possibilities are explored before any medical intervention is prescribed.
i just made a comment about that! it seems to be more of a trauma response (not for everyone) but for most people ive known being in and out of the hospital
You know it's going to be a good day when you see Doctor Mike just posted a video:)
Hi Dr Mike, I was wondering if your alsop open to discuss this topic with Dr. Miriam Grossman. She has valid concerns about this topic and she is a Child and Adolescent psychiatrist.
Dr Mike did a great job here and did not shy away from tough questions. I do feel like there was a lot of quick and easy dismissal of studies that revealed anti-transition results which MIGHT be fair and right, but it did seem a bit too quickly dismissed from my perspective.
I have yet to see any of those studies that hasn't been debunked, to be fair.
It's a 3 hour conversation, and it could've been much longer. Maybe you'll find the in-depth answers in his book, which probably took months instead of hours. Just saying!
Thank you for asking the hard questions, trying so hard to be careful with your words, being methodical and organized about this topic. No one has all the answers and we are all trying so hard to learn.
One thing I that’s amazing about this is the hard or difficult questions. I truly think these help keep the conversation flowing and have a better understanding of these things. No matter someone’s views on this. This is very informative and a great discussion.