In my Curse of Strahd DM run. Our monk burned through Strahd’s last 2 Legendary Resistances in one turn and stun locked him into oblivion. I rolled a 5, 3, and 2. If it hadn’t been the culmination of an 8 HR final battle, I would have been more upset. Haha. He had been slowly curb-stomping them until then.
I first learned about this from Nerd Immersion’s coverage and I was sure he was missing something. I’m positive this is an oversight, somebody removed “can’t move” and forgot to add “their speed is reduced to 0”. This is really frustrating, I wanted to get the book as soon as it comes out, but now I feel like I should wait for an eratta’d printing to come next year.
I intend to wait, both for errata (as there's some extremely broken stuff in the 2024 Player's Handbook; like martials being irrelevant past level 11 thanks to Conjure Elementals) and because they'll for certain going to do bundle deals when the DM's Guide and Monster Manual is released. Also, the player's handbook is going in the SRD, so you can access it for free. I'd only get the 2024 PHB for collecting the alternative cover.
Did you miss the level 14 Paladin feature that lets you remove the stun condition spending 5 lay on hands points? That's a new way to remove the condition though takes a long time to access it with a very small cost.
My biggest complaint is that we’ve still got nested conditions. “You have condition X. This gives you condition Y” is so frustrating to read and just creates confusion for both DM and players. If you’re trying to clarify rules then just clarify them, tell me everything I need to know in that one place
It’s a challenging issue to solve while also trying to be space efficient but I admit I was also immediately disappointed upon seeing this in the new book.
Tbh "stunned" as a word never really implied to me that the person couldnt move, just that they were confused or disoriented. Wasnt until I started playing dnd that I started thinking of it as more like paralysis. They're several editions late if they wanna change it now though lol. Now incapacitated always meant to me that you couldn't do anything at all. Was always weird to me that it doesnt actually stop you from moving.
If you pay close attention, action isn't a game term. Bonus Action and Reaction are. I'm actually wondering if the word action was supposed to cover all actions. I.e. Magic Actions, Actions, and movement. Though I don't know why it includes Bonus actions if that is the case. But it is also weird that it uses the lowercase for actions.
If you're stunned, you also can't take the Disengage action, which means any Opportunity Attacks are at advantage as you try to stumble away. Having come from the era of Save or Die, I don't think it's as big of a deal making it difficult to break stun - yeah it sucks, but at least you aren't rolling a new character. That being said, I think Restoration (not lesser) should remove the Stunned condition and the ability for monsters to inflict Stunned should should be used sparingly - it makes them scary though.
As DM, I will add "Your Speed is halved and you can speak only falteringly." Speaking of using normal language, "Invisible" also no longer necessarily mean what you think it means.
I feel like stunned should have at least halved your speed. Then the rest makes more sense. Although this brings up the same issue as a couple other things in this book. If a creature is immune to stunned, then stunning strike is better if they succeed since it doesn't give the stunned condition but still some downsides. So a creature who knows that monks can stun can choose to fail and be unaffected. Just like irresistible dance being better on a creature that succeeds the save then falling if the creature is immune to being charmed. A creature that identifies the spell and is immune to charmed will just choose to fail and be unaffected.
I was really disappointed to see that Dazed got removed. It seemed like a really good condition for when you want to restrict a targets action without leaving them with no options. I like being able to make a strategic choice of whether to attack or run.
few things annoy me as much as keywords that don't align well with their effects. Especially like with the 5e conditions where there's a bunch of conditions with super similar effects and names.
I just wished that WOTC was a little bit more careful in making things do what they imply in natural language. Like, "sneak attack" should have been changed to not imply that you need to be sneaky, stealth rules shouldn't have granted you "invisibility", the "invisible" condition should have said that you're transparent (it doesn't), "stunned" should reduce your speed to 0, etc. The number of times I've seen first time players ask questions on forums about these in so numerous.
In fairness, most things that _inflict_ stun have condition-ending rules built in. Usually it has a one round timer, or a repeat save at end of turn clause.
I rule that since (any action) is in lowercase and (Bonus Action) and (Reaction) are capitalized. I say you cannot move. If they meant you cannot take the Action action. Why did they not capitalize it? - Home ruling STUNNED before the book is freely available. not a good sign in my opinion.
Is this a question that came up? Not trying to be snarky lol I genuinely don’t know. Since it doesn’t state it in the spell, I’ve always just assumed it didn’t.
I think you forgot about the new paladin's 14th level laying of hands feature "restoring touch" as it can also remove the stunned condition. Another reason why paladins are very strong in this edition!
Its makes the fights more dynamic. Being able to move means that people can make ban interesting decision that's based on context. Being in an emanation and being 2014 stunned is terrible. Now you get to walk out of it and make an informed choice to move in a opposite direction from your ally whose in an emanation. Its the difference between being in check and being checkmated, which is bad: no decisions are possible you just have to wait while the op rolls dice to calculate how many rounds it takes to kill your character.
Incapacitated, at least in 2014, also broke Concentration as well (another rule buried in the Concentration Rules, not the rules on conditions). I don't have a problem with conditions building on other conditions, I think the problem is that too many conditions are too debilitating and too similar, therefore they are not used as much as the could be. Paralyzed and Petrified kind of have to be what they are, and incapacitated seems to be more like a 'builder' condition that other conditions build off of (I still think Stinking Cloud should inflict this condition, but that's water under the bridge), and Stunned was just too similar (because it also built off of incapacitated. That appears to be why the poisoned condition is used so much--it's a debuff, but not completely debilitating. That is presumably why they had the dazed condition in the play test. I suppose they decided they did not to proliferate new conditions or there was some backwards compatibility issue and they decided to bag it late in the design process. I'm still baffled by why higher level heals such as heal, Greater Restoration, etc. don't remove the condition.
It feels like they left off that stunned reduced your movement by half. Or set it to zero but half would at least remove the weirdness that passing a save makes your movement slower against some effects.
You make some good points as to why you feel it was intentional. But I do think it was an oversight. I think the intention of stunned and incapacitated is that “you can’t move” as in you couldn’t take that “action” but it is super weird that Paralyzed specifies that your Movement is 0 if that is the case. Idk maybe the idea is something could grant you movement with Paralyzed, but that can’t help you with Stunned?
This is entirely possible, I’m super curious to see if this gets officially addressed at some point either to confirm it was a mistake or that it wasn’t.
I think the problem is that they meant to bundle being unable to move into the incapacitated condition, but overlooked it. It's always been weird to me that incapacitated creatures are able to move.
These type of problems pop up from time to time. Which is why homebrew rules exist. Though it would be nice to have the rules set so GMs dont need to home brew, such as grouping all similar effects to that lesser restoration works for all (which is my homebrew method of choice). I like the Stunned condition for its flavour and am currently working on adding stun grenades and non lethal ammunition to my campaign (for reasons) and stunned is more thematic than any other condition like paralyzed (though Dazed would also work) so home brew time it is.
There is nothing confusing about the effects of the new stunned condition. The rules spell out clearly, point by point, exactly what each effect the condition has, it’s just that now it’s effects (or lack of in this case) are incongruous with the traditional understanding of its name. I think the change is intentional, perhaps in an attempt to make the condition slightly less debilitating. Bearing in mind the shackles that the desire for backwards compatibility has imposed on the 2024 update, they probably felt changing the name of the condition was not an option.
Wouldn’t it have made more sense to have these things increase on a scale? Use something like the exhaustion rules. It’s a weird rule that seems to miss the mark. Anyway, here’s another sub on your way to 10k!
It seems obvious to me that it's just an error as they changed the conditions around but forgot about stunned. Similarly as with the Goliath referencing older rules of Grappling.
I actually think it's a rather nice design. Stun removes your ability take actions, but as a player you still are interacting with the game world during your turn. However because you can't dash, you can't withdraw or get away easily.
It is not. Moving is not an action in 5e and never has been. This is further demonstrated in the Paralyzed condition (which I also showed) that indicates that your speed becomes 0.
Well since you’re the one with the special access to the book, why are posing it as a question? You’re being disingenuously ignorant just to make a video. 14 minutes to say one sentence? So now stun you can move and paralyze you can’t. Video over. This is just click bait.
lol what? It’s a continuation of a discussion I started 6 months ago to see where things landed. There is a question among many community members (not just me) about whether this was a mistake/omission or not. There’s literally zero clickbait whatsoever.
How this makes it into the printed book just goes to show an extremely low bar of Quality Control and editors that don't play the game. Having a brand-new updated rules book needing errata before it is even released is unforgivable. I don't run 5e anymore and have been watching this 5.5 development from the sidelines. Nerd Immersion's TWF videos are yet another example of WotC not having someone who actually plays the game proofreading the text before it goes to print. Errata before release and a push for more digital garbage for a tabletop game is such a deal breaker. There are so many other games that do heroic fantasy out there. I recommend everyone check one of those other options out before dropping hundreds of dollars on this unpolished game. For the money they are asking for it is unforgivable.
To Move, you must take the "Move action", Dash can be a Full Action or Bonus Action. You can draw a weapon or make an interaction as part of a "Move action". Dazed was specific that on your turn you can take a Move or Full Action... Full Action has been abbreviated to Action, things you can do as a Full Action are Ability (Skill) Checks, Cast a Spell, Object Use, Attack (Which, if you have multiple attacks, you can attack multiple times as part of the action... a Dazed character can choose to Attack and then hit 2, 3, 4, or more times)... Action Surge allows you to take an additional Move action, Full Action, or Bonus Action. Daze made it clear that your choices were Move or Full Action, but not Bonus Action or Reaction, so a Wizard could not be dazed and save their action to reaction cast Shield... Stunned eliminates. Dash is a special kind of Action that can be taken to Move, and only certain classes/races/subclass features allow doing so as a Bonus action... Inactive as part of the Incapacitated Condition is meant to imply no action, including movement, can be made.
I’ll be honest I struggled to follow this but if you’re suggesting that movement is in any way an “action” in any capacity in 5e then you are mistaken. Nowhere in the 2014 PHB or the 2024 PHB is movement referred to as an action of any sort. To further underscore this, Stunned in 2014 specifically stated you couldn’t move in addition to the incapacitated condition. Furthermore, Paralyzed in 2024 also specifically states your speed becomes 0. This would not be necessary if it were implied. Movement has never been and is still not an action in 5e.
🥳🫂👍🏿 The whole book feels undercooked to me - I think they fired 1000 people and thought they could wring a finished product out of the remaining employees and were unwilling to change the release date so they could capitalize on the 50th anniversary - but, I don’t have the inside scoop, so who really knows 🤷🏿♀️
I house rule that anything that removes paralysis covers stun as well.
@@DevanConrad I like this rule a lot!
Adding that to the House Rule Quest 👍🏿
I was thinking the exact same thing.
In my Curse of Strahd DM run. Our monk burned through Strahd’s last 2 Legendary Resistances in one turn and stun locked him into oblivion. I rolled a 5, 3, and 2.
If it hadn’t been the culmination of an 8 HR final battle, I would have been more upset. Haha. He had been slowly curb-stomping them until then.
I first learned about this from Nerd Immersion’s coverage and I was sure he was missing something. I’m positive this is an oversight, somebody removed “can’t move” and forgot to add “their speed is reduced to 0”. This is really frustrating, I wanted to get the book as soon as it comes out, but now I feel like I should wait for an eratta’d printing to come next year.
Nah. There won't be any errata.
Jeremy Crawford will claim such things were on purpose with a reference to some 1980s movie.
It’s entirely possible that there’s going to be an errata. Like I said, this was just my thoughts but I can totally see this going the other way.
@rogerwilco2 this got a laugh from me lol
I intend to wait, both for errata (as there's some extremely broken stuff in the 2024 Player's Handbook; like martials being irrelevant past level 11 thanks to Conjure Elementals) and because they'll for certain going to do bundle deals when the DM's Guide and Monster Manual is released. Also, the player's handbook is going in the SRD, so you can access it for free.
I'd only get the 2024 PHB for collecting the alternative cover.
I like that dazed condition, ill probably replace all stun effects with that condition in my games
Did you miss the level 14 Paladin feature that lets you remove the stun condition spending 5 lay on hands points? That's a new way to remove the condition though takes a long time to access it with a very small cost.
If you are surprised that stun doesn't make you... stunned, try and read up on invisibility in 2024 - it does not seem to make you translucent...
My biggest complaint is that we’ve still got nested conditions. “You have condition X. This gives you condition Y” is so frustrating to read and just creates confusion for both DM and players. If you’re trying to clarify rules then just clarify them, tell me everything I need to know in that one place
It’s a challenging issue to solve while also trying to be space efficient but I admit I was also immediately disappointed upon seeing this in the new book.
@@InsightCheckis it clarified in the rules glossary? I thought I saw someone mention that the rules glossary spelled it all out for every condition.
@NateFinch it doesn’t, sadly. The text I put on screen I took directly from the glossary.
It's kind of like they rushed the book without actual play testing and the play testing they did to was jus pretend to sell the product.
Tbh "stunned" as a word never really implied to me that the person couldnt move, just that they were confused or disoriented. Wasnt until I started playing dnd that I started thinking of it as more like paralysis. They're several editions late if they wanna change it now though lol.
Now incapacitated always meant to me that you couldn't do anything at all. Was always weird to me that it doesnt actually stop you from moving.
If you pay close attention, action isn't a game term. Bonus Action and Reaction are. I'm actually wondering if the word action was supposed to cover all actions. I.e. Magic Actions, Actions, and movement. Though I don't know why it includes Bonus actions if that is the case. But it is also weird that it uses the lowercase for actions.
That's not what incapacitated means even medically.
If you're stunned, you also can't take the Disengage action, which means any Opportunity Attacks are at advantage as you try to stumble away. Having come from the era of Save or Die, I don't think it's as big of a deal making it difficult to break stun - yeah it sucks, but at least you aren't rolling a new character. That being said, I think Restoration (not lesser) should remove the Stunned condition and the ability for monsters to inflict Stunned should should be used sparingly - it makes them scary though.
As DM, I will add "Your Speed is halved and you can speak only falteringly."
Speaking of using normal language, "Invisible" also no longer necessarily mean what you think it means.
I feel like stunned should have at least halved your speed. Then the rest makes more sense.
Although this brings up the same issue as a couple other things in this book.
If a creature is immune to stunned, then stunning strike is better if they succeed since it doesn't give the stunned condition but still some downsides. So a creature who knows that monks can stun can choose to fail and be unaffected.
Just like irresistible dance being better on a creature that succeeds the save then falling if the creature is immune to being charmed. A creature that identifies the spell and is immune to charmed will just choose to fail and be unaffected.
I was really disappointed to see that Dazed got removed. It seemed like a really good condition for when you want to restrict a targets action without leaving them with no options. I like being able to make a strategic choice of whether to attack or run.
few things annoy me as much as keywords that don't align well with their effects.
Especially like with the 5e conditions where there's a bunch of conditions with super similar effects and names.
And then there’s the constant referencing of other conditions within the conditions lol
I just wished that WOTC was a little bit more careful in making things do what they imply in natural language. Like, "sneak attack" should have been changed to not imply that you need to be sneaky, stealth rules shouldn't have granted you "invisibility", the "invisible" condition should have said that you're transparent (it doesn't), "stunned" should reduce your speed to 0, etc. The number of times I've seen first time players ask questions on forums about these in so numerous.
Very interesting visual choice here! "I'm going to talk about the stunned condition - lets show a purple worm for 10 minutes" 😆
Well they are quite stunning
In fairness, most things that _inflict_ stun have condition-ending rules built in. Usually it has a one round timer, or a repeat save at end of turn clause.
I rule that since (any action) is in lowercase and (Bonus Action) and (Reaction) are capitalized. I say you cannot move. If they meant you cannot take the Action action. Why did they not capitalize it? - Home ruling STUNNED before the book is freely available. not a good sign in my opinion.
1DND supports sleep walking
Maybe they were trying to resolve rules lawyering over the question of whether Freedom of Movement suppresses the Stunned condition?
Is this a question that came up? Not trying to be snarky lol I genuinely don’t know. Since it doesn’t state it in the spell, I’ve always just assumed it didn’t.
I think you forgot about the new paladin's 14th level laying of hands feature "restoring touch" as it can also remove the stunned condition. Another reason why paladins are very strong in this edition!
Just like the Ranger, stun remains a hot mess
Its makes the fights more dynamic. Being able to move means that people can make ban interesting decision that's based on context. Being in an emanation and being 2014 stunned is terrible. Now you get to walk out of it and make an informed choice to move in a opposite direction from your ally whose in an emanation. Its the difference between being in check and being checkmated, which is bad: no decisions are possible you just have to wait while the op rolls dice to calculate how many rounds it takes to kill your character.
Incapacitated, at least in 2014, also broke Concentration as well (another rule buried in the Concentration Rules, not the rules on conditions). I don't have a problem with conditions building on other conditions, I think the problem is that too many conditions are too debilitating and too similar, therefore they are not used as much as the could be. Paralyzed and Petrified kind of have to be what they are, and incapacitated seems to be more like a 'builder' condition that other conditions build off of (I still think Stinking Cloud should inflict this condition, but that's water under the bridge), and Stunned was just too similar (because it also built off of incapacitated. That appears to be why the poisoned condition is used so much--it's a debuff, but not completely debilitating. That is presumably why they had the dazed condition in the play test.
I suppose they decided they did not to proliferate new conditions or there was some backwards compatibility issue and they decided to bag it late in the design process. I'm still baffled by why higher level heals such as heal, Greater Restoration, etc. don't remove the condition.
It feels like they left off that stunned reduced your movement by half. Or set it to zero but half would at least remove the weirdness that passing a save makes your movement slower against some effects.
You make some good points as to why you feel it was intentional. But I do think it was an oversight. I think the intention of stunned and incapacitated is that “you can’t move” as in you couldn’t take that “action” but it is super weird that Paralyzed specifies that your Movement is 0 if that is the case. Idk maybe the idea is something could grant you movement with Paralyzed, but that can’t help you with Stunned?
This is entirely possible, I’m super curious to see if this gets officially addressed at some point either to confirm it was a mistake or that it wasn’t.
@@InsightCheck yeah and you definitely kept the door open in saying that you may be wrong haha. But yeah it will be interesting to see what WoTC does.
Paladin now gets a power to end stun with lay in hands eventually
I think the problem is that they meant to bundle being unable to move into the incapacitated condition, but overlooked it. It's always been weird to me that incapacitated creatures are able to move.
These type of problems pop up from time to time.
Which is why homebrew rules exist.
Though it would be nice to have the rules set so GMs dont need to home brew, such as grouping all similar effects to that lesser restoration works for all (which is my homebrew method of choice).
I like the Stunned condition for its flavour and am currently working on adding stun grenades and non lethal ammunition to my campaign (for reasons) and stunned is more thematic than any other condition like paralyzed (though Dazed would also work) so home brew time it is.
We’ll see if there is errata but I won’t be using this version of the stunned condition since it feels so weird
There is nothing confusing about the effects of the new stunned condition. The rules spell out clearly, point by point, exactly what each effect the condition has, it’s just that now it’s effects (or lack of in this case) are incongruous with the traditional understanding of its name.
I think the change is intentional, perhaps in an attempt to make the condition slightly less debilitating. Bearing in mind the shackles that the desire for backwards compatibility has imposed on the 2024 update, they probably felt changing the name of the condition was not an option.
Wouldn’t it have made more sense to have these things increase on a scale? Use something like the exhaustion rules.
It’s a weird rule that seems to miss the mark.
Anyway, here’s another sub on your way to 10k!
It seems obvious to me that it's just an error as they changed the conditions around but forgot about stunned. Similarly as with the Goliath referencing older rules of Grappling.
I actually think it's a rather nice design. Stun removes your ability take actions, but as a player you still are interacting with the game world during your turn. However because you can't dash, you can't withdraw or get away easily.
Stun = Paralyzed is the quick and logical decision; What can end paralyze can end stun. With this in mind, Dazed condition is not even needed.
Sigh. Moving should just be a Move Action.
Oh lord. Some people just can't be satisfied no matter what you do. 🙄🙄
Rules as written vs. Rules as intended.
We need to know what the intent is and make needed corrections.
It’s a mistake. WotC did sack a bunch of people and their proof readers were likely among them.
Hmmm wonder what an easy fix would be here
2024 Dnd in general is just confusing from what ive seen.
I might be mistaken but isn't movement a action?
Nah it isn’t. It’s a common misconception though but movement is completely separate from actions.
@@InsightCheck You can walk 30ft but you can't drink a potion... This is beyond weird.
@vincentvalashu lol exactly this hahaha
It’s called the Move Action. Is a type of action - so can’t move.
It is not. Moving is not an action in 5e and never has been. This is further demonstrated in the Paralyzed condition (which I also showed) that indicates that your speed becomes 0.
Well since you’re the one with the special access to the book, why are posing it as a question? You’re being disingenuously ignorant just to make a video.
14 minutes to say one sentence? So now stun you can move and paralyze you can’t. Video over. This is just click bait.
lol what? It’s a continuation of a discussion I started 6 months ago to see where things landed. There is a question among many community members (not just me) about whether this was a mistake/omission or not. There’s literally zero clickbait whatsoever.
The phrase "Move Action" appears 0 times in the 2014 PHB.
How this makes it into the printed book just goes to show an extremely low bar of Quality Control and editors that don't play the game. Having a brand-new updated rules book needing errata before it is even released is unforgivable. I don't run 5e anymore and have been watching this 5.5 development from the sidelines. Nerd Immersion's TWF videos are yet another example of WotC not having someone who actually plays the game proofreading the text before it goes to print. Errata before release and a push for more digital garbage for a tabletop game is such a deal breaker. There are so many other games that do heroic fantasy out there. I recommend everyone check one of those other options out before dropping hundreds of dollars on this unpolished game. For the money they are asking for it is unforgivable.
To Move, you must take the "Move action", Dash can be a Full Action or Bonus Action. You can draw a weapon or make an interaction as part of a "Move action". Dazed was specific that on your turn you can take a Move or Full Action... Full Action has been abbreviated to Action, things you can do as a Full Action are Ability (Skill) Checks, Cast a Spell, Object Use, Attack (Which, if you have multiple attacks, you can attack multiple times as part of the action... a Dazed character can choose to Attack and then hit 2, 3, 4, or more times)... Action Surge allows you to take an additional Move action, Full Action, or Bonus Action. Daze made it clear that your choices were Move or Full Action, but not Bonus Action or Reaction, so a Wizard could not be dazed and save their action to reaction cast Shield... Stunned eliminates. Dash is a special kind of Action that can be taken to Move, and only certain classes/races/subclass features allow doing so as a Bonus action... Inactive as part of the Incapacitated Condition is meant to imply no action, including movement, can be made.
I’ll be honest I struggled to follow this but if you’re suggesting that movement is in any way an “action” in any capacity in 5e then you are mistaken. Nowhere in the 2014 PHB or the 2024 PHB is movement referred to as an action of any sort. To further underscore this, Stunned in 2014 specifically stated you couldn’t move in addition to the incapacitated condition. Furthermore, Paralyzed in 2024 also specifically states your speed becomes 0. This would not be necessary if it were implied. Movement has never been and is still not an action in 5e.
🥳🫂👍🏿
The whole book feels undercooked to me - I think they fired 1000 people and thought they could wring a finished product out of the remaining employees and were unwilling to change the release date so they could capitalize on the 50th anniversary - but, I don’t have the inside scoop, so who really knows 🤷🏿♀️