@@cheponis no actually, test reference software routines demand engineering knowledge and considerably good experience. Only W2AEW is at Joe's level and he is a senior engineer at Tektronics for 30 years.
@@radiotests I think we know different sets of geeks, Craig. That's all! BTW, I'm delighted Joe takes the time to show us all this great stuff, and to punch out such great code. Thank you, Joe! ( fyi, Craig: I live in Silicon Valley -- there are more astonishing geeks here than anywhere else in the world. They're not 'normal' engineers.) BY THE WAY, I can't wait for Joe's review of the 6 GHz NanoVNA .....
🤣 @16:00 "once I realized the stock software would hang.... I started writing my own software..." Joe, your software is way cooler! I am a newby to this stuff, but I can see you are ingenious! I love it. Thank you for your efforts and contributions to this field. You must have a deep passion for it. Now all we need is a Joe Smith cloning tool.
I liked the V2Plus4 but have moved onto the LiteVNA. I just got the latest hardware revision and have started to experiment with it. My last video shows using it to measure some GHz antennas. ua-cam.com/video/xe4Fy4Lpnqw/v-deo.html
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks! I didn't know about the LiteVNA. I had the original 300 MHz NanoVna and liked it, so when it was time for an upgrade, I just defaulted to the NanoVNA V4 Plus Pro. Just used it this afternoon to tune an EFHW. Of course, this was only 14 MHz so it was an easy job....
@@thrillscience For working at lower frequencies or making narrow band measurements, you may find your original NanoVNA outperforms your new one. I've posted data before comparing several of these low cost VNAs. Recently I posted some data for the latest LiteVNA revision.
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks for the tip! I was going to give away my old one, but I'll hold onto it for HF/VHF work because it's small and works will with portable QRP setups.
The magnificent and precious video. there was a channel of a man named Nebojsa Kovacevic, equally magnificent and noble. Unfortunately, everything concerning electronics has been erased ... I hope that the world will not be deprived of knowledge, but that wisdom, nobility, love, happiness and prosperity will be defended ...
Thanks for the really interesting look at NanoVNAs and what they can and cannot do. The examples and use cases presented are very helpful. The part at the end about making measurements in the presence of interference is also very helpful, as I do work at RF sites where this is a very real problem.
They must use wideband RF detectors in those units. I can get within 1 kHz with the AA-55 Zoom from Rigexpert before I see 'beat note' interference' down below the 160 meter band at 1700 kHz. The signal level at 1700 kHz from that nearby AM station is around -1 dBm and the AA-55 like I say is not bothered UNLESS I am tuned to 1700 kHz. I have __no__ trouble once in the actual 160 m band ... this is in the highly urban AM-radio populated DFW Tx area.
Thank you very much for this explanation. Awesome! At 57'15", I wonder if does the Er shoudn't be the 'effective' Er for each trace? I mean, part of the E fields travel through the air and FR4 and part only through FR4. Using TXLINE calculartor for microstrip, gives Ereff = 3.45 @ 50 ohm, 3.82 @ 25 ohm and 3.1 @ 100 ohm.
I once made some home made cal set out of 0603 resistors and SMA connector. After some tweaking I was able to get the return loss to >50dB out to 2GHz and >30dB out to 9GHz. Now I use them for quick calibration when I don't want to wait for my Ecal to warm up.
joe smith I solder 2 100ohm 0603 resistor in parallel directly onto the center pin of an SMA connector that is filed flush. That gives performance similar to mini-circuits ANNE terminator. Then I use copper tape to form a ground plane near the resistors to reduce inductance and that improve things a lot.
The software you wrote is impressive. I appreciate the time that went into it. I have a Siglent SVA1015X and a nano VNA whihch I have been considering adding a relay set-up like your to so I could get bi-directional 2-port measurements without manually swapping the connectors. See your example is very helpful. I currently do not have a need to go above 1 GHz, if I do understanding the limitations for the newer Nano VNA versions will be helpful. Thank you for the detailed comparison. I have done 50 Ohm through crystal measurements with attenuators in line next to crystal. It seems to work fine. What motivated you to add the transformers in the fixture?
I believe that's lock, stock and barrel, referring to a gun. Glad you enjoyed the video. I'm currently working on some updates to the software and plan to make another small demo of it in the near future.
I was pleased to see an impedance-over-distance, which is very useful for checking circuit boards. Other than cable length, I had not seen TDR functionality in for the NanoVNA desktop software. Thank you for making the video, well, and the software. It would seem that one of those little crafting paper-cutting cutting machines might make some nice instant filters from copper foil, which probably is getting expensive for you. I had gone through most of LeCroy's Wavepulser videos, as well as some others. Eric Bogatin had mentioned that one of his students found that the mounting pins used on SMA connectors become an issue at higher frequencies, as they are 4 little antennas. I am still hoping that someone makes a NanoVNA with 4 ports.
I had demonstrated TDR on the original NanoVNA a little over a year ago. It's fairly limited (see attached link). There are many SMA connectors to choose from. Without additional information, I wouldn't have any idea but sure, not all connectors have the same performance. You may find a single connector costing more than your expensive paper cutting machine. ua-cam.com/video/GJNMnq8eD0E/v-deo.html
Re: comparing 0406 and 1206 on the test boards. Did the loop in the 1206 curve indicate a limitation of the resistor? Confused because 1206 mounted on sma seemed to do much better. What caused the difference between 0406 and 1206, resistor character or transmission line effect? Very nice demonstrations of transmission line physics!
The two parts mounted to the test board are 1000 ohms, vs a 50 ohm part mounted to the SMA. These are not the same parts. Not too long ago, I repeated an experiment where I measured the capacitance of various 1206 resistors. Parasitics.
cool . At those prices I can get both types. the original for ham HF and 2m also air band and marine antennas , then the plus4 for UHF CB ,Cell phone 800-1.2Ghz and2.4ghzwi fi . The fun ahead👍
Neither my NanovnaV2+4 nor my NanovnaV2+ hangs with the original software of the author (nanovnaQT), so the problem that you encountering must be related to you hardware/software set-up. Have you upgraded to the latest version of nanovnaQT that is available ? I use nanovaQT nearly everyday on a Linux PC (Ubuntu 20.04) and there is absolutely no issue at all, it runs like a charm.
I assume by your comment that your watched the video and are suggesting you are are able to run your V2+ continuously, streaming data over the USB, without a lockup for > 6 hours. That's very good news if that's really what you are doing. I suspect it's a firmware or hardware problem with my V2+. I've since given up on it.
@joe smith . In my Linux Ubuntu 20.04 environnent, my V2+4 or V2+ will stay connected for hours and even days without hanging, neither at start-up nor after several hours of use, However , you are using Windows which manages COM ports in a very different way than their linux equivalents.....Anyway, congradulation for the look of the SmithChart, it's really great and remenbers me my student days and the good times I had with the HP8753
@@peteride-kostic737 I've seen my V2+ run about 6 hours. That's not six hours of being plugged in but 6 hours of streaming data. If you follow that thread in the description, I talk about various things I tried to sort out what the problem is. I doubt the OS or PC have anything to do with it. If the V2+ and V2+4 had the same performance, I would consider buying a second one just to see if I could replicate the problem. I started using LabView when version 4 was released. I saw the advantage and bought a copy of 5 for home use. Now days, pretty much anything I run on the PC is written in LabView.
Will it tell me if my wire antenna is resonant across HF bands. Yes, job done for under a 100 bucks. Will it hold up against an Agilent or Marconi for complex RF testing, probably not. Excellent video. Thanks for so much good info.
It depends what you are trying to measure. The $50 original NanoVNA I have for example can be used down to about 20kHz compared with my vintage Agilent at 300kHz or my museum grade HP at 4MHz. In the following video, I attempt to show the $50 VNA being used for PDN measurements. ua-cam.com/video/Y8ouApeex78/v-deo.html Of course, at 46:00 into this video I compare the data from the original NanoVNA, the V2Plus4 and one of my vintage VNAs when looking at a GHz interdigital filter. As we would expect, there is no one right tool for all jobs. I think for the $50 the original NanoVNA makes a decent VNA for experimenting below 300MHz. It's a great tool for educational purposes. For people wanting to experiment at higher frequencies, the V2Plus4 is a decent starting point.
You said the problem with the V2 was the lack of Narrow Band, is that a software problem and could they write a firmware update to make narrow band possible ?
I consider firmware to be running on the NanoVNA and software to be running on the PC. The software has nothing to do with the data the NanoVNA sends up. OWO had posted where someone had attempted to address it in firmware but they had not tested it. I've never looked into it as I seem to have poor luck with firmware.
I have a question, both in the video and in the manual you've said something along the lines of "I am not using metrology-grade standards with the NanoVNA". Why is that? I am assuming it's due to the untraceable mechanical nature of the connectors on the NanoVNA.
The cost for a set of Keysight mechanical 3.5mm standards is somewhere in the range of $4000 to $16,000. The risk of damaging them could be reduced by using a good set of cables. To reduce the risk of damage to the cables, we could install higher grade connectors on the VNA. Consider that one connector could easily cost more than the entire Nano. At the lower frequencies I play at, it's far less important which is why you still see me using home made standards and sorted loads. www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/connector-care
14:55, seems like their software is polling the OS for info on each COM port every time the drop down menu is loaded. For people with less COM ports, it probably wouldn’t hang as long but that’s still an absolutely horrible design decision. The worst part is it would probably take a single person 25 minutes to fix that issue either by caching the previous devices, doing it asynchronously or adding a sub-menu for device selection.
It could be a delay caused by the Bluetooth stack and the configured BT serial ports, and disabling Bluetooth temporarily will stop the delay. I've seen this before with the Windows BT stack. Verifying this may be a problem if Joe is using a BLE mouse or keyboard. If not caused by Bluetooth, then the software may not just be polling the OS for available ports, but also opening each port and seeing if there is a VNA device that responds. The NanoVNA software is open source I believe, so this shouldn't be hard to check & fix. I have written plenty of software that populates a COM port list on a drop down, but as all I generally do is read from registry entries there is no delay like this.
It's junk software, and has many more problems than Joe demoed in this vid. I've managed to update Nano firmware with it, but it rarely works for any other function.
I've just being watching your video. Many compliments, your work i great! i'm a lot curious on the Matlab script you mentioned that you wrote to calculate the calibration coefficients from S parameters. Can you share the script or at least the formulas to calculate coefficients, or even the literature on these formulas? i've been looking for the formulas form very long time, but i could not find none of them.
That's odd I would state that as I have never written such a script. Provide a timestamp to what you are referring to and I should be able to clear things up.
@@joesmith-je3tq Oh sorry, my bad! you say something about a Matlab script at minute 8:27. Listening again the video you say somebody else gave you help with standards and wrote the script (i think is Mario, not sure i spelt the name right).
Now I understand. Yes, they wrote a scrip that I used to characterize my home made standards based on a set of metrology grade standards. Check out: www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/20db-rf-attenuator-seeking-feedback-to-improve/msg2987982/#msg2987982
@@joesmith-je3tq thank you vey much, I read the conversation and downloaded the Octave file, it is very interesting! I will take inspiration and write my own script.
Post a link when you have it working and I'll have a look. There was another person who had written a similar script but I was not able to locate it. I read that METAS can also do this but I have never tried or looked into it.
Hi Joe (with interesting last name ;-) First of all thank you for sharing and the effort to do so. I am a total newbie in RF but years in the electronics doing different things. At this point getting interested in RF and radio-amateurism, so I am watching a lot of video's like yours. Just watched your video with great interest. You put a lot effort into the software I suppose. For what I see it is probably made in LabView? I am, among other, a long time LabView developer. At this point I am not thinking to use those GHz bands, as I have just ordered a Baofeng HT just to start with RF and start with some materials and to get my licence. But the chances are big to order this interesting tool as it is affordable, and I think one can learn a lot just by doing the actual experiments aside the theoretical calculations. If I get this nanaVNA I am definitely going to look into your advanced software! Once again thank you for all your efforts to share your knowledge. Keep up this good work. It a quite a help for us newbies and a inspiration too.
I would start by using the VNA standalone. Consider joining some of the group.io mail lists. If you decide you need a PC to control it, you may want to use one of the open source tools rather than mine. These are very popular with the radio hobbyist. Enjoy your new hobby.
😷👍🏻🧂 ANOTHER OUTSTANDING VIDEO ! Legion... Must Be a Member of The Salty Cracker Army. 🧂🧂🇺🇸🧂🧂 The N connector model is rugged but they tend to freeze when attempting to flash firmware updates. DFU issues and no “jumper” as referenced in the docs. The TinySA / Mini1300 Antenna Analyzer/ NanoVNA are GREAT innovations for the home player. RF / Hobbyist/ Ham / a little for all groups.
Maybe. There are so many of these low cost VNAs with various names, manufactures and people creating firmware, it would be near impossible to say for sure. For my original NanoVNA, I am still running firmware that a member of EEVBLOG was fixing bugs with in 2019. Someone had asked about the H4 and I attempted to buy the exact same one. I ended up with one from Hugen's site. The firmware was never stable enough where I would consider it working. I have not checked in over a year if they released anything stable for it. Both of these (H and H4) use the old protocol which I stopped developing for. The software and manual are still there for those interested in using it. If you decide to try it, make sure you read the manual and FAQ. If you still have questions, check the EEVBLOG. There is an index. If you are a radio hobbyist wanting to measure VSWR, I suggest not attempting it. There are many open sourced programs that are supported. I suggest joining the groups.io mail lists.
What is accuracy advantage of using the port switching relay arrangement rather than manually switching connections between ports 1 and 2? Nice having automated switch, but a bunch more work to get the S12.
Professional S-Parameter test sets from HP early on did this beginning in the mid 70's up through about 2 GHz ... then they transitioned to the Transmission--Reflection (two-port) test sets like the NanoVNA series has ... being able to do S12 and S22 is nice when measuring non-bilateral devices like transistors (IOW, amplifiers) in a production environment.
What I would really like to see is how to use a NanoVNA to calculate and test the matching network for a 900 or 2400 MHz transceiver with some kind of PCB or standard SMA whip antenna. That would be AWESOME.
As I stated during this video, I wouldn't recommend using the NanoVNA for anything above 300MHz. You may need something better. For calculating matching networks, there are several on-line calculators available. Try Google. For videos on how to use a VNA to test them, use the YT search.
I noticed you had an issue with the software on 13m30. From a software engineers perspective this is not that strange. The main GUI (graphical user interface) thread should never do anything that takes more then a little time, else it looks like its "hung" as you put it. It will stay hung until its done with the lengthy job. This should have been done in a separate thread or at least behind an explicit "refresh" button. Im a software engineer and electronics hobbyist, who appreciates your channel, so drop me a line if you could use some help/advise in software... i.e. if you want to port part of the original software which i believe is in github also.
I wasn't involved with developing the software supplied with the V2+. I think the people you want to contact have their own group that you may want to consider joining. I believe they had a link to it from the store. They may appreciate any help you could provide them. For myself, I just roll my own and get on about my business.
Will your software work with: "Upgraded NanoVNA-H4 Vector Network Analyzer, SeeSii Latest V4.3"? I just acquired one of those. The date today is 16 June, 2023.
This specific software does not work with the H4. I have different software that uses the old protocol (used by the H4) but it is no longer under development.
@@swradios I am not aware where OWO had specified anything. I would start with them. If you are not a member, I suggest joining the V2P mail list as OWO will normally respond to questions there.
@@joesmith-je3tq thank you very much! i have a similar load but it does not split open in the middle, mine died somehow so I'll be taking it apart eventually
You mentioned that you have an HP 8754A. If you're looking for video ideas, you might make one showing how to calibrate and make measurements with it. (I have a discarded one with a blown front-end that I may get around to trying to fix some day :-)
That's a very crude system with a lot of mechanical parts to get it set up. It was my first VNA and it's where I started to learn some of the basic math. If you go through this thread, you can see several pictures of it in operation. Was the test set damaged, or the actual 8754A? www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/20db-rf-attenuator-seeking-feedback-to-improve/msg2903552/#msg2903552
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks for the link! (I haven't had time to check out the old VNA, but I was told the S Parameter Test Set was damaged by someone testing an amplifier without sufficient attenuation.)
Greetings joe, excellent software with nice visualization, I was wondering if you have compiled any similar software to use it with a nanovna-f, if so, could you provide me with the url to download it?
I only have the original NanoVNA and the V2+4. Software interface to the V2+4 is different than the original. I have no idea what the F would require. In my case, I was really looking for the dynamic range, speed, larger data sets and that 4GHz+ upper end. The V2+4 is a big improvement but I'm at a loss as to why they didn't consider it's use for narrow band work.
I believe the OEM only sells them on Tindie. The cost now is about $200. You may want to have a look at the LiteVNA as well. The cost is considerably less and they offer a wider frequency range.
@@billysgeo Ok. While I have not looked at that specific model (and many others) from what I have seen, they are all worth the money I have paid for them. I would say for anyone wanting to learn about VNAs, these offer a very affordable way to get started. Consider that you can get a complete VNA with cables and standards for far less than one good cable would run you. That said, is it worth it to YOU. That I can't answer.
I have not used the V2Plus4 since getting the LiteVNA. The LiteVNAs firmware offers features not available with the V2Plus4, which I take advantage of. If you watch the very last video I made, you can also see how I am making use of the more than 2X upper frequency range of the LiteVNA. But I am sure what you are really asking is not what I prefer but what you should buy. If I were a ham, I would most likely stay with the original NanoVNA. It offers advantages over the Lite and V2Plus4. All of these low cost VNAs are great for educational purposes but they all certainly have their downside. If you watch the following, you will note one problem they all share: ua-cam.com/video/y6iOTEU6Zzo/v-deo.html
No. The H and H4 use a different protocol. I did write software that supports them along with the original NanoVNA but it is not kept up to date and no longer supported. It is still available to download.
In watching other videos every time you change your span (start/stop) they say you need to reconfigure. Since you appear to be way more educated than others in electrical engineering is this not the case? I didn’t see you doing that, that is why asking.
That's a good question. I will assume you skipped around rather than taking the time to watch this video. It really depends what I am doing. There are cases where I am looking at relative data and will not cal the unit, or may just normalize the data. Your question is about changing the frequency after the unit has been calibrated. Watch this video or at least the segment from 21-23 minutes. I explain how my software interpolates. Listen very carefully to what I am saying. This is not anything magic or advanced. If you check out some of the major manufactures, you will find most VNAs will have this capability. Yes, there is a lot of information on the internet. Some good, some not so good. You get to sort through it. Personally, I still use books for technical questions. Recently, a person had posted how they were measuring SWR of their antennas out three places beyond the decimal point. Now why anyone would care about this, I am not sure but I wouldn't be surprised that they would cal every time they use the device. If after you listen to that 2 minutes you still have a question, then feel free to ask.
I have been working with the LiteVNA. Most of the discussion has been on EEVBLOG. The following videos include it. ua-cam.com/video/G4eLcTC4Ako/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/y6iOTEU6Zzo/v-deo.html
@@joesmith-je3tq Greetings! Are the receivers capable to accept that high frequency? How can the harmonic mode be activated? With an external high pass filter at the output?
@@ghlscitel6714 A few people, including myself have posted some data above 9GHz. As long as you are running firmware that supports it, it will change to using the harmonics automatically. No filter is used.
You may want to join their mail group: groups.io/g/liteVNA/topic/first_tests_above_6_3ghz/87993520?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,20,87993520,previd%3D1643375013749494603,nextid%3D1638275601966447379&previd=1643375013749494603&nextid=1638275601966447379
Hi, is it a specific driver for using your software, com ports on my PC are not detected by your software.... my Nanovna V2Plus4 cannot be linked..... (It works with QT & Saver) ?
I found that we must install NI VISA to make it work, now I can see all com port available , maybe something is missing inside your software package. I'm going to play with your soft now....
Wait I'm confused. Where's the 3-min animated intro with poorly selected music? Where the "Let's get right to it" that should appear 12 1/2 min in? I am so disoriented! You provided useful content from beginning to end. Next time warn us that your video is fluff free, puhlease! (and thank you for the great content.)
I'm not known for making polished content. I suspect if you watch my other videos on these low cost VNAs, you will find much of the same dry, data driven content.
Most people wanting the software just download it. I would say though, based on the comments I have received, having it doesn't make these devices useful.
@@jacek7178 I see you decided to read the description to find it. The puts you a step above most who have asked about it. Depending what country you live in, that torque wrench is sold under various brands. You can find breakover wrenches used for a fair price as well.
@@joesmith-je3tq Got it thanks, will this also work with the first version of the Nano or only the V2. Also the I am missing the lower part of the program and can not scroll to the bottom, it's chopped off and even in full screen mode.. Am I missing something to get the bottom part of the window?
@@joesmith-je3tq Checked the manual, but not clear if I can use it with the original nanoVNA, I tried and it does not connect, it does with nanovna-saver so I know the unit is OK. Maybe I am doing something wrong?
U'r trouble shooting....1.no windows errors...2. it's got 2 be the usb device! ram corruption, usb chip, it's got 2 be a clock. or a overflow problem..I would imagine.. is U'r windows software program a html 5. or an *.exe?? anyway.. nice vid..good looking quick cal tools...
Easiest thing for me to do would be to buy a second V2+ and see if the problem will replicate. There is a fair amount of information on the EEVBlog that describes my attempts to uncover the root cause.
I cringe when he speaks about torking down the loads with a wrench! That can damage the connector connection in the vna! Don’t do that! Finger tight will work nicely.
Damn Shame your Software Design was Wasted to Lab Views Greed. For Amateurs/Hobbyists the Nano's are Righteous at the price. Same with the tinySA's... Uptown, and then some at the price.
You're an absolute legend... "So I wrote my own software..."
Damn!
I'm confused -- isn't that what any good geek would do?
@@cheponis no actually, test reference software routines demand engineering knowledge and considerably good experience. Only W2AEW is at Joe's level and he is a senior engineer at Tektronics for 30 years.
@@radiotests I think we know different sets of geeks, Craig. That's all! BTW, I'm delighted Joe takes the time to show us all this great stuff, and to punch out such great code. Thank you, Joe! ( fyi, Craig: I live in Silicon Valley -- there are more astonishing geeks here than anywhere else in the world. They're not 'normal' engineers.) BY THE WAY, I can't wait for Joe's review of the 6 GHz NanoVNA .....
@@cheponis I have a few videos showing the 6GHz LiteVNA. ua-cam.com/video/G4eLcTC4Ako/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/y6iOTEU6Zzo/v-deo.html
Wow, the second part was golden, I've rarely seen such concise explanations of DIY RF circuits.
LabView God! I have been trying to love LabView for years, but never able to bend it to my will. I bow down to Joe Smith.
Like most things, you learn by doing. I really like LabView and have found it to be a big time saver.
@@joesmith-je3tq Indeed!
🤣 @16:00 "once I realized the stock software would hang.... I started writing my own software..." Joe, your software is way cooler! I am a newby to this stuff, but I can see you are ingenious! I love it. Thank you for your efforts and contributions to this field. You must have a deep passion for it. Now all we need is a Joe Smith cloning tool.
Hope you find it useful.
Beautiful video, thanks for posting! It was a joy to watch as well as packed with useful information from beginning to end.
Thanks. It was a fun video to work on.
Again a really great vid by a great and admirable engineer! Great Experiments! I enjoyed it very much.
Thanks! I just got the NanoVNA V4 Plus Pro, and the first thing I tried to do was measure some GHz-range antennas. I'm glad I saw this video.
I liked the V2Plus4 but have moved onto the LiteVNA. I just got the latest hardware revision and have started to experiment with it. My last video shows using it to measure some GHz antennas. ua-cam.com/video/xe4Fy4Lpnqw/v-deo.html
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks! I didn't know about the LiteVNA. I had the original 300 MHz NanoVna and liked it, so when it was time for an upgrade, I just defaulted to the NanoVNA V4 Plus Pro. Just used it this afternoon to tune an EFHW. Of course, this was only 14 MHz so it was an easy job....
@@thrillscience For working at lower frequencies or making narrow band measurements, you may find your original NanoVNA outperforms your new one. I've posted data before comparing several of these low cost VNAs. Recently I posted some data for the latest LiteVNA revision.
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks for the tip! I was going to give away my old one, but I'll hold onto it for HF/VHF work because it's small and works will with portable QRP setups.
Great presentation of of NanoVNA! So comprehensive, I like it. Happy New Year!
The magnificent and precious video. there was a channel of a man named Nebojsa Kovacevic, equally magnificent and noble. Unfortunately, everything concerning electronics has been erased ... I hope that the world will not be deprived of knowledge, but that wisdom, nobility, love, happiness and prosperity will be defended ...
Thanks for the really interesting look at NanoVNAs and what they can and cannot do. The examples and use cases presented are very helpful. The part at the end about making measurements in the presence of interference is also very helpful, as I do work at RF sites where this is a very real problem.
They must use wideband RF detectors in those units. I can get within 1 kHz with the AA-55 Zoom from Rigexpert before I see 'beat note' interference' down below the 160 meter band at 1700 kHz. The signal level at 1700 kHz from that nearby AM station is around -1 dBm and the AA-55 like I say is not bothered UNLESS I am tuned to 1700 kHz. I have __no__ trouble once in the actual 160 m band ... this is in the highly urban AM-radio populated DFW Tx area.
Thank you very much for this explanation. Awesome!
At 57'15", I wonder if does the Er shoudn't be the 'effective' Er for each trace? I mean, part of the E fields travel through the air and FR4 and part only through FR4.
Using TXLINE calculartor for microstrip, gives Ereff = 3.45 @ 50 ohm, 3.82 @ 25 ohm and 3.1 @ 100 ohm.
Joe you sure know your art! Your software is amazing thank you so much!
Thanks. Hopefully you are able to make use of it. I just finished releasing the latest manual and software today.
@@joesmith-je3tq that great ill be downloading it. It will be of great use to me. Thanks again.
I once made some home made cal set out of 0603 resistors and SMA connector. After some tweaking I was able to get the return loss to >50dB out to 2GHz and >30dB out to 9GHz. Now I use them for quick calibration when I don't want to wait for my Ecal to warm up.
Anything I have made has had poor performance beyond a gig and a half or so.
joe smith I solder 2 100ohm 0603 resistor in parallel directly onto the center pin of an SMA connector that is filed flush. That gives performance similar to mini-circuits ANNE terminator. Then I use copper tape to form a ground plane near the resistors to reduce inductance and that improve things a lot.
@@wadehsu2347 Could you post a picture of the load? I would like to see how the tape was used.
great work, that TDR measurement with mm resolution would cost a fortune 10 years ago.
10 years ago, the best thing I had was my old 1970s HP 8754A. That's about all I could afford for hobby use. These low cost VNAs are game changer.
@@joesmith-je3tq do you add velocity factor to that TDR measurements ? i beleive it is possible to reverse calculate Er value from that.
The software you wrote is impressive. I appreciate the time that went into it.
I have a Siglent SVA1015X and a nano VNA whihch I have been considering adding a relay set-up like your to so I could get bi-directional 2-port measurements without manually swapping the connectors. See your example is very helpful.
I currently do not have a need to go above 1 GHz, if I do understanding the limitations for the newer Nano VNA versions will be helpful. Thank you for the detailed comparison.
I have done 50 Ohm through crystal measurements with attenuators in line next to crystal. It seems to work fine. What motivated you to add the transformers in the fixture?
There was a link in the description to the crystal testing I did. There's a lot of information posted. Did you take the time to read it?
Thanks. Very interesting
I like the accent. Lack stack and barrel. And excellent video, thank you very much for doing these
I believe that's lock, stock and barrel, referring to a gun. Glad you enjoyed the video. I'm currently working on some updates to the software and plan to make another small demo of it in the near future.
I was pleased to see an impedance-over-distance, which is very useful for checking circuit boards. Other than cable length, I had not seen TDR functionality in for the NanoVNA desktop software. Thank you for making the video, well, and the software.
It would seem that one of those little crafting paper-cutting cutting machines might make some nice instant filters from copper foil, which probably is getting expensive for you.
I had gone through most of LeCroy's Wavepulser videos, as well as some others. Eric Bogatin had mentioned that one of his students found that the mounting pins used on SMA connectors become an issue at higher frequencies, as they are 4 little antennas.
I am still hoping that someone makes a NanoVNA with 4 ports.
I had demonstrated TDR on the original NanoVNA a little over a year ago. It's fairly limited (see attached link).
There are many SMA connectors to choose from. Without additional information, I wouldn't have any idea but sure, not all connectors have the same performance. You may find a single connector costing more than your expensive paper cutting machine.
ua-cam.com/video/GJNMnq8eD0E/v-deo.html
The BOMB, Joe! Cracking and superb....
Glad you enjoyed it Frank.
Great video Joe!
Re: comparing 0406 and 1206 on the test boards.
Did the loop in the 1206 curve indicate a limitation of the resistor? Confused because 1206 mounted on sma seemed to do much better. What caused the difference between 0406 and 1206, resistor character or transmission line effect?
Very nice demonstrations of transmission line physics!
The two parts mounted to the test board are 1000 ohms, vs a 50 ohm part mounted to the SMA. These are not the same parts. Not too long ago, I repeated an experiment where I measured the capacitance of various 1206 resistors. Parasitics.
cool . At those prices I can get both types. the original for ham HF and 2m also air band and marine antennas , then the plus4 for UHF CB ,Cell phone 800-1.2Ghz and2.4ghzwi fi . The fun ahead👍
Keep in mind that the video is close to a year old now.
Excellent. Thanks
Neither my NanovnaV2+4 nor my NanovnaV2+ hangs with the original software of the author (nanovnaQT), so the problem that you encountering must be related to you hardware/software set-up. Have you upgraded to the latest version of nanovnaQT that is available ? I use nanovaQT nearly everyday on a Linux PC (Ubuntu 20.04) and there is absolutely no issue at all, it runs like a charm.
I assume by your comment that your watched the video and are suggesting you are are able to run your V2+ continuously, streaming data over the USB, without a lockup for > 6 hours. That's very good news if that's really what you are doing. I suspect it's a firmware or hardware problem with my V2+. I've since given up on it.
@joe smith . In my Linux Ubuntu 20.04 environnent, my V2+4 or V2+ will stay connected for hours and even days without hanging, neither at start-up nor after several hours of use, However , you are using Windows which manages COM ports in a very different way than their linux equivalents.....Anyway, congradulation for the look of the SmithChart, it's really great and remenbers me my student days and the good times I had with the HP8753
@@peteride-kostic737 I've seen my V2+ run about 6 hours. That's not six hours of being plugged in but 6 hours of streaming data. If you follow that thread in the description, I talk about various things I tried to sort out what the problem is. I doubt the OS or PC have anything to do with it. If the V2+ and V2+4 had the same performance, I would consider buying a second one just to see if I could replicate the problem.
I started using LabView when version 4 was released. I saw the advantage and bought a copy of 5 for home use. Now days, pretty much anything I run on the PC is written in LabView.
Will it tell me if my wire antenna is resonant across HF bands. Yes, job done for under a 100 bucks. Will it hold up against an Agilent or Marconi for complex RF testing, probably not. Excellent video. Thanks for so much good info.
It depends what you are trying to measure. The $50 original NanoVNA I have for example can be used down to about 20kHz compared with my vintage Agilent at 300kHz or my museum grade HP at 4MHz. In the following video, I attempt to show the $50 VNA being used for PDN measurements.
ua-cam.com/video/Y8ouApeex78/v-deo.html
Of course, at 46:00 into this video I compare the data from the original NanoVNA, the V2Plus4 and one of my vintage VNAs when looking at a GHz interdigital filter. As we would expect, there is no one right tool for all jobs. I think for the $50 the original NanoVNA makes a decent VNA for experimenting below 300MHz. It's a great tool for educational purposes. For people wanting to experiment at higher frequencies, the V2Plus4 is a decent starting point.
You said the problem with the V2 was the lack of Narrow Band, is that a software problem and could they write a firmware update to make narrow band possible ?
I consider firmware to be running on the NanoVNA and software to be running on the PC. The software has nothing to do with the data the NanoVNA sends up. OWO had posted where someone had attempted to address it in firmware but they had not tested it. I've never looked into it as I seem to have poor luck with firmware.
tnx for your time spend for those video review...Dinos..
I have a question, both in the video and in the manual you've said something along the lines of "I am not using metrology-grade standards with the NanoVNA". Why is that? I am assuming it's due to the untraceable mechanical nature of the connectors on the NanoVNA.
The cost for a set of Keysight mechanical 3.5mm standards is somewhere in the range of $4000 to $16,000. The risk of damaging them could be reduced by using a good set of cables. To reduce the risk of damage to the cables, we could install higher grade connectors on the VNA. Consider that one connector could easily cost more than the entire Nano. At the lower frequencies I play at, it's far less important which is why you still see me using home made standards and sorted loads.
www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/connector-care
14:55, seems like their software is polling the OS for info on each COM port every time the drop down menu is loaded. For people with less COM ports, it probably wouldn’t hang as long but that’s still an absolutely horrible design decision.
The worst part is it would probably take a single person 25 minutes to fix that issue either by caching the previous devices, doing it asynchronously or adding a sub-menu for device selection.
It could be a delay caused by the Bluetooth stack and the configured BT serial ports, and disabling Bluetooth temporarily will stop the delay. I've seen this before with the Windows BT stack. Verifying this may be a problem if Joe is using a BLE mouse or keyboard.
If not caused by Bluetooth, then the software may not just be polling the OS for available ports, but also opening each port and seeing if there is a VNA device that responds. The NanoVNA software is open source I believe, so this shouldn't be hard to check & fix.
I have written plenty of software that populates a COM port list on a drop down, but as all I generally do is read from registry entries there is no delay like this.
It's junk software, and has many more problems than Joe demoed in this vid. I've managed to update Nano firmware with it, but it rarely works for any other function.
I've just being watching your video. Many compliments, your work i great!
i'm a lot curious on the Matlab script you mentioned that you wrote to calculate the calibration coefficients from S parameters. Can you share the script or at least the formulas to calculate coefficients, or even the literature on these formulas? i've been looking for the formulas form very long time, but i could not find none of them.
That's odd I would state that as I have never written such a script. Provide a timestamp to what you are referring to and I should be able to clear things up.
@@joesmith-je3tq Oh sorry, my bad! you say something about a Matlab script at minute 8:27. Listening again the video you say somebody else gave you help with standards and wrote the script (i think is Mario, not sure i spelt the name right).
Now I understand. Yes, they wrote a scrip that I used to characterize my home made standards based on a set of metrology grade standards. Check out: www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/20db-rf-attenuator-seeking-feedback-to-improve/msg2987982/#msg2987982
@@joesmith-je3tq thank you vey much, I read the conversation and downloaded the Octave file, it is very interesting! I will take inspiration and write my own script.
Post a link when you have it working and I'll have a look. There was another person who had written a similar script but I was not able to locate it. I read that METAS can also do this but I have never tried or looked into it.
Hi Joe (with interesting last name ;-) First of all thank you for sharing and the effort to do so. I am a total newbie in RF but years in the electronics doing different things. At this point getting interested in RF and radio-amateurism, so I am watching a lot of video's like yours. Just watched your video with great interest. You put a lot effort into the software I suppose. For what I see it is probably made in LabView? I am, among other, a long time LabView developer. At this point I am not thinking to use those GHz bands, as I have just ordered a Baofeng HT just to start with RF and start with some materials and to get my licence. But the chances are big to order this interesting tool as it is affordable, and I think one can learn a lot just by doing the actual experiments aside the theoretical calculations. If I get this nanaVNA I am definitely going to look into your advanced software! Once again thank you for all your efforts to share your knowledge. Keep up this good work. It a quite a help for us newbies and a inspiration too.
I meant nanoVNA 🙂
I would start by using the VNA standalone. Consider joining some of the group.io mail lists. If you decide you need a PC to control it, you may want to use one of the open source tools rather than mine. These are very popular with the radio hobbyist. Enjoy your new hobby.
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks!
😷👍🏻🧂 ANOTHER OUTSTANDING VIDEO !
Legion... Must Be a Member of The Salty Cracker Army. 🧂🧂🇺🇸🧂🧂
The N connector model is rugged but they tend to freeze when attempting to flash firmware updates.
DFU issues and no “jumper” as referenced in the docs.
The TinySA / Mini1300 Antenna Analyzer/ NanoVNA are GREAT innovations for the home player.
RF / Hobbyist/ Ham / a little for all groups.
I like that 6GHz one in the works but it seems like there's a lot to be done before it's usable.
Hi Joe. One question, does your software also work with nanoVNA-H and/or -H4? Thanks.
Maybe. There are so many of these low cost VNAs with various names, manufactures and people creating firmware, it would be near impossible to say for sure. For my original NanoVNA, I am still running firmware that a member of EEVBLOG was fixing bugs with in 2019. Someone had asked about the H4 and I attempted to buy the exact same one. I ended up with one from Hugen's site. The firmware was never stable enough where I would consider it working. I have not checked in over a year if they released anything stable for it. Both of these (H and H4) use the old protocol which I stopped developing for. The software and manual are still there for those interested in using it. If you decide to try it, make sure you read the manual and FAQ. If you still have questions, check the EEVBLOG. There is an index. If you are a radio hobbyist wanting to measure VSWR, I suggest not attempting it. There are many open sourced programs that are supported. I suggest joining the groups.io mail lists.
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks.
What is accuracy advantage of using the port switching relay arrangement rather than manually switching connections between ports 1 and 2? Nice having automated switch, but a bunch more work to get the S12.
Professional S-Parameter test sets from HP early on did this beginning in the mid 70's up through about 2 GHz ... then they transitioned to the Transmission--Reflection (two-port) test sets like the NanoVNA series has ... being able to do S12 and S22 is nice when measuring non-bilateral devices like transistors (IOW, amplifiers) in a production environment.
What I would really like to see is how to use a NanoVNA to calculate and test the matching network for a 900 or 2400 MHz transceiver with some kind of PCB or standard SMA whip antenna. That would be AWESOME.
As I stated during this video, I wouldn't recommend using the NanoVNA for anything above 300MHz. You may need something better. For calculating matching networks, there are several on-line calculators available. Try Google. For videos on how to use a VNA to test them, use the YT search.
I noticed you had an issue with the software on 13m30. From a software engineers perspective this is not that strange. The main GUI (graphical user interface) thread should never do anything that takes more then a little time, else it looks like its "hung" as you put it. It will stay hung until its done with the lengthy job. This should have been done in a separate thread or at least behind an explicit "refresh" button.
Im a software engineer and electronics hobbyist, who appreciates your channel, so drop me a line if you could use some help/advise in software... i.e. if you want to port part of the original software which i believe is in github also.
I wasn't involved with developing the software supplied with the V2+. I think the people you want to contact have their own group that you may want to consider joining. I believe they had a link to it from the store. They may appreciate any help you could provide them. For myself, I just roll my own and get on about my business.
Will your software work with: "Upgraded NanoVNA-H4 Vector Network Analyzer, SeeSii Latest V4.3"? I just acquired one of those. The date today is 16 June, 2023.
This specific software does not work with the H4. I have different software that uses the old protocol (used by the H4) but it is no longer under development.
@@joesmith-je3tq Can I get a link from you for that older protocol software you mention?
You mentioned that the original unit was better for measuring xtal filters etc below 300 Mhz. Why is that? Is the RBW more narrow in the original?
It may no longer be true as the designer had posted a link to some third party firmware that was intended to solve this. I have never tried it.
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks. I am looking for the RBW specs for these VNA's. Can you direct or help?
@@swradios I am not aware where OWO had specified anything. I would start with them. If you are not a member, I suggest joining the V2P mail list as OWO will normally respond to questions there.
Hi Joe, I'm interested in how you rebuilt that 100W attenuator, any info that you could point me to?
www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/fixed-attenuator-repair-mods/msg3267302/#msg3267302
@@joesmith-je3tq thank you very much! i have a similar load but it does not split open in the middle, mine died somehow so I'll be taking it apart eventually
You mentioned that you have an HP 8754A. If you're looking for video ideas, you might make one showing how to calibrate and make measurements with it. (I have a discarded one with a blown front-end that I may get around to trying to fix some day :-)
That's a very crude system with a lot of mechanical parts to get it set up. It was my first VNA and it's where I started to learn some of the basic math. If you go through this thread, you can see several pictures of it in operation. Was the test set damaged, or the actual 8754A?
www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/20db-rf-attenuator-seeking-feedback-to-improve/msg2903552/#msg2903552
@@joesmith-je3tq Thanks for the link! (I haven't had time to check out the old VNA, but I was told the S Parameter Test Set was damaged by someone testing an amplifier without sufficient attenuation.)
Greetings joe, excellent software with nice visualization, I was wondering if you have compiled any similar software to use it with a nanovna-f, if so, could you provide me with the url to download it?
I only have the original NanoVNA and the V2+4. Software interface to the V2+4 is different than the original. I have no idea what the F would require. In my case, I was really looking for the dynamic range, speed, larger data sets and that 4GHz+ upper end. The V2+4 is a big improvement but I'm at a loss as to why they didn't consider it's use for narrow band work.
Thank you for the video tell me where you bought this device give a link to the store thank you.
I believe the OEM only sells them on Tindie. The cost now is about $200. You may want to have a look at the LiteVNA as well. The cost is considerably less and they offer a wider frequency range.
Wait... I see you use the Avago's AppCAD calculator!
What about the SAA-2N/NanoVNA? The one with the n-Type connectors on top
What about it?
@@joesmith-je3tq is it any good?
@@billysgeo Can you define good?
@@joesmith-je3tq "worth the money spent on it"
@@billysgeo Ok. While I have not looked at that specific model (and many others) from what I have seen, they are all worth the money I have paid for them. I would say for anyone wanting to learn about VNAs, these offer a very affordable way to get started. Consider that you can get a complete VNA with cables and standards for far less than one good cable would run you. That said, is it worth it to YOU. That I can't answer.
Do you prefer the liteVNA now?
I have not used the V2Plus4 since getting the LiteVNA. The LiteVNAs firmware offers features not available with the V2Plus4, which I take advantage of. If you watch the very last video I made, you can also see how I am making use of the more than 2X upper frequency range of the LiteVNA. But I am sure what you are really asking is not what I prefer but what you should buy. If I were a ham, I would most likely stay with the original NanoVNA. It offers advantages over the Lite and V2Plus4. All of these low cost VNAs are great for educational purposes but they all certainly have their downside. If you watch the following, you will note one problem they all share:
ua-cam.com/video/y6iOTEU6Zzo/v-deo.html
Can this be used as a spectrum analyser ?
I didn't spend anytime with the firmware to see what features it had built in. I would just download the manual for it and start reading.
Will this software program V2 Plus4 work with my NanoVNA H ?
No. The H and H4 use a different protocol. I did write software that supports them along with the original NanoVNA but it is not kept up to date and no longer supported. It is still available to download.
Hi, do you have some schematics for the multimeter "Sagab Elma 911?" In DC mode it says AC. And in mA mode it says C... Good Videos by the way!! 😀
I don't.
In watching other videos every time you change your span (start/stop) they say you need to reconfigure. Since you appear to be way more educated than others in electrical engineering is this not the case? I didn’t see you doing that, that is why asking.
That's a good question. I will assume you skipped around rather than taking the time to watch this video. It really depends what I am doing. There are cases where I am looking at relative data and will not cal the unit, or may just normalize the data.
Your question is about changing the frequency after the unit has been calibrated. Watch this video or at least the segment from 21-23 minutes. I explain how my software interpolates. Listen very carefully to what I am saying. This is not anything magic or advanced. If you check out some of the major manufactures, you will find most VNAs will have this capability.
Yes, there is a lot of information on the internet. Some good, some not so good. You get to sort through it. Personally, I still use books for technical questions. Recently, a person had posted how they were measuring SWR of their antennas out three places beyond the decimal point. Now why anyone would care about this, I am not sure but I wouldn't be surprised that they would cal every time they use the device.
If after you listen to that 2 minutes you still have a question, then feel free to ask.
There is already a 6 GHz version in Banggood. Any experience?
I have been working with the LiteVNA. Most of the discussion has been on EEVBLOG. The following videos include it.
ua-cam.com/video/G4eLcTC4Ako/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/y6iOTEU6Zzo/v-deo.html
Should mention that some have been experimenting above 8GHz using this VNA with the harmonic mode.
@@joesmith-je3tq Greetings! Are the receivers capable to accept that high frequency? How can the harmonic mode be activated? With an external high pass filter at the output?
@@ghlscitel6714 A few people, including myself have posted some data above 9GHz. As long as you are running firmware that supports it, it will change to using the harmonics automatically. No filter is used.
You may want to join their mail group:
groups.io/g/liteVNA/topic/first_tests_above_6_3ghz/87993520?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,20,87993520,previd%3D1643375013749494603,nextid%3D1638275601966447379&previd=1643375013749494603&nextid=1638275601966447379
Hi, is it a specific driver for using your software, com ports on my PC are not detected by your software.... my Nanovna V2Plus4 cannot be linked..... (It works with QT & Saver) ?
I found that we must install NI VISA to make it work, now I can see all com port available , maybe something is missing inside your software package. I'm going to play with your soft now....
NI VISA should have included with the installer but I may have missed it.
@@patriceh6316 The installer has been updated to include VISA. No other changes were made.
@@joesmith-je3tq Thank you very much Joe for all the job you made and shared it withs us.
@@patriceh6316 No problem. Thanks for pointing out the missing drivers.
Wait I'm confused. Where's the 3-min animated intro with poorly selected music? Where the "Let's get right to it" that should appear 12 1/2 min in? I am so disoriented! You provided useful content from beginning to end. Next time warn us that your video is fluff free, puhlease! (and thank you for the great content.)
I'm not known for making polished content. I suspect if you watch my other videos on these low cost VNAs, you will find much of the same dry, data driven content.
@@joesmith-je3tq Thank you for keeping it informative and concise!
Really impressive review but without your software the device V2 Plus4 seems a little useless.
Most people wanting the software just download it. I would say though, based on the comments I have received, having it doesn't make these devices useful.
@@joesmith-je3tq But your software get every thing out of it (and even more) in very efficient way. What torque wrench are you using? Regards.
@@jacek7178 I see you decided to read the description to find it. The puts you a step above most who have asked about it. Depending what country you live in, that torque wrench is sold under various brands. You can find breakover wrenches used for a fair price as well.
Software seems to have been deleted. :-( any reason why?
It was moved to release after adding the VISA drivers to the installer. Look to the right where it shows releases.
Look here if you are still unable to find it. www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg3452660/#msg3452660
@@joesmith-je3tq Got it thanks, will this also work with the first version of the Nano or only the V2. Also the I am missing the lower part of the program and can not scroll to the bottom, it's chopped off and even in full screen mode.. Am I missing something to get the bottom part of the window?
@@romanmelnyk-ve2rmj979 There is a 100 page or so manual.
@@joesmith-je3tq Checked the manual, but not clear if I can use it with the original nanoVNA, I tried and it does not connect, it does with nanovna-saver so I know the unit is OK. Maybe I am doing something wrong?
U'r trouble shooting....1.no windows errors...2. it's got 2 be the usb device! ram corruption, usb chip, it's got 2 be a clock. or a overflow problem..I would imagine.. is U'r windows software program a html 5. or an *.exe?? anyway.. nice vid..good looking quick cal tools...
Easiest thing for me to do would be to buy a second V2+ and see if the problem will replicate. There is a fair amount of information on the EEVBlog that describes my attempts to uncover the root cause.
This is a very poorly coded software! Yours looks much better!
The original software supplied with the first generation NanoVNA was also less than impressive.
...you just ruined my intention of buying a Nano :(
Oh well. I'm looking forward to seeing what they offer next.
I cringe when he speaks about torking down the loads with a wrench! That can damage the connector connection in the vna! Don’t do that! Finger tight will work nicely.
ua-cam.com/video/HiJVeQvqtsM/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/K8lsSiZyAyY/v-deo.html
Damn Shame your Software Design was Wasted to Lab Views Greed. For Amateurs/Hobbyists the Nano's are Righteous at the price. Same with the tinySA's... Uptown, and then some at the price.
I continue to develop it, but using my old license and tool set.
@@joesmith-je3tq You're a Smart Guy... just not enough time, were all short on time.