Let me add an aspect. I have studied solid state physics and nano physics, and my father has been an internationally acclaimed Professor and expert in everything related to glass (including glass fibers). The potential danger of rockwool and glass fibers is primarily related to their size and form factor, long thin fibres of a certain size being potentially critical, regardless the material. Nano particles from glass or stone develop a certain behaviour in relation to body cells that is based on physical properties (size, attractive forces), and therefore can potentially cause exactly the same damage as asbestos fibres. The difference to asbestos is however that some 25 or 30 years ago they changed the chemical composition of the glass and rock fibres (to be exact, the acid-basis balance) in such a way that the body can dissolve them typically within one month. My father was instrumental in asserting this change in composition. This then led to the classification of being harmless because it is assumed that the body will not develop a cancer around these fibres within that month. But of course this also depends on dosage, and still they are entering the body before being dissolved. So, two things to take away from this: 1. Be extra careful if removing old glass wool or mineral wool insulation from a roof or a wall that probably is more than 30 years old. 2. While there is no reason to be hysteric, it also does not hurt to minimize the dosage of exposition. So, cutting the mats outside, using gloves and a mask, wrapping into foil - these are all measures for minimizing the dosage and therefore principally good ideas.
I designed music related rooms and halls for 25 years and react now heavily to contact with glasfiber. Might be an allergic reaction or a too high exposure. What if all the research is done by the company that sells the stuff?
I clicked this video not because of its content, but because the comments are usually the source of actual information... in this case I got more than I bargained for - thank you!
@@marcus268Yes, certainly membrane foil is the luxury solution, except that it might be somewhat stiff. I have used pe foil from the hardware store. If I remember it right it could be 0.06 to 0.1 mm thick. I also bought a membrane foil (for much money) but that ended unused in my storage, mainly because I considered it to be too stiff. Hope that helps.
I used acoustic insulation made from recycled jeans for my acoustic panels. I don't know if it is widely available, but here in the Netherlands it is made by Métisse. It has pretty good specs, can be cut without any use of masks and does not release harmful fibers.
I know this material, not sure if this is just a commercial name but I've always know it as "Geopannel" here in Spain. It's actually made from a mixture of cotton and synthetic fibres, a.k.a. old clothes. Its was designed as an insulator to put between thin mortar walls, and for automotive industries and I've seen it pulled from commercial studio facilities some times. I was considering it as an alternative to fibre glass, as it has a better consistency over time, similar density and and also to avoid my dog inhaling fibres. They have a more sensible and delicate nose than humans do. In the end I think I'm going to go for a mix of materials, as I found some rockwool pannels very cheap, recently.
This is a good product for reusing what may otherwise go to waste. BUT...... just because it's made from a natural or other common material doesn't mean it can't be harmless.
I did not say the material is harmless, I only stated that it does not release fibers like other materials like Rock or Glasswoll does. This stuff contains 85-100% recycled textile fibers (min 70% cotton), up to 15% polyester fibers and anti mold and bacteria additives. Actually it is made in France and they made a UA-cam video: ua-cam.com/video/nboNKuoTW4k/v-deo.html
@@sousapro Yes, but it does release fibers. They may not be as harmful as glass or rock wool, but they are still airbourne fibers/particulate and inhaling them should be avoided. And do you really want to inhale anti mold and bactericidal chemicals? Where it's made is irrelevant. It's not a difficult thing to understand. You do you. But don't suggest it's harmless to other people when that's not true.
@@wingnutbert9685 Yeah they release fibers, textile fibers. The ones we all wear and sleep in. it would be ridiculous to assume that fibers made from recycled denim would be the same as fiberglass. You have a point on the chemicals, not sure how dangerous those are.
I was worried about it, so I covered my traps with a couple of layers of quilts/doonas. I couldn't afford the rock wool to fill them, but the empty boxes covered in quilts made a huge difference in my room anyway! In the end, I filled all 6 with feather quilts and pillows, after washing, they had become quite dense. They're working very well! They didn't cost much either, pallets from the side of the road, and quilts and pillows from the dog bed bin at the Op-shop! 🙂
Most airborne fibers will settle out over time, especially if you close any vents so you can easily wear a face mask when moving to panels around then vacuuming the room after a couple of hours of letting any fibers settle. And if you're still worried, you can easily use a box fan with a pair of filters formed into a triangle/wedge shape to forcibly pull the fibers from the air by drawing air through the filters. (See contraptions that many had used during the big fires in the Pacific Northwest)
Inhaling anything into your lungs other than air can have an effect, especially an accumulative one. Plus, there's a chance that natural material has to be chemically treated, if used for building insulation, to meet fire safety standards. Like many "bad" materials, it's fine if it's just sitting behind a sealed space like a wall, or once inside an acoustic panel. But disturbing it with moving it and cutting it is a different thing. Those tests are determining the safety of a material in a static, undisturbed state. Not when in close contact handling situations. And being used in the building industry for years is just an absurd measurement. Asbestos, used for years. Then everyone lost their minds over it. Justified? Depends. Sitting in a wall or encapsulated in a medium like paint or stucco or plaster, totally fine. But later on, when removal is needed, it's a problem. Or if a plaster wall needs to be sanded for refinishing or taken down, it's a problem. I hate to be a safety Karen, but I also feel it's a responsibility to make corrections to incorrect assumptions for those who may follow misinformation. 👍 So just wear a mask. It's cheap and easy.
Well, it's actually not *that* easy. Many years ago I met one of the head maintenance engineers for the machines at R**kwool plants. What he told me is: the "new" R**kwool which is produced in the Czech Republic since 1998, with modern machines, definitely is safe as the diameter of the fibers is bigger than the pulmonary capillaries. The "classic" product you get in the US or in other parts of the world he wasn't "so sure about" (now that he's no longer among us, I can safely say that R**kwool knew that its product should be used with some caution).
Question: When I built my bass traps 10yrs ago, the instructions were to find an "acoustically transparent" fabric.To test that, you would just see if air would blow trough the fabric. If you can put a plastic sheet on the isolation material, that seems to me like it would cancel that effect. Does that mean that the need for "blow trough" fabric is a myth? Great content, thank you soo much, I always enjoy watching your videos!
A plastic barrier will have an effect on high frequencies reflecting it back, but the low frequencies will pass through, vibrate the material and lose energy. I think he was talking about bass traps specifically if you were to wrap it then it's gonna work just fine.
Hi all! I’ll tell you about my experience in building several DIY studios: - Dust! Fabric and mineral wool generate dust. - Smell! Mineral wool molecules constantly scatter, as a result, the smaller the room and the worse the ventilation, the stronger the smell and worsening breathing/allergies. - Absorption! In the low-end, mineral wool doesn't work as well as you'd expect, so it's important to find the right position for the monitors in the room. First the monitors and the room, only then the absorption. You should also immediately look towards membrane traps. As a result, I came to wrap the mineral wool in plastic bags and wrap the final trap in paper and seal it tightly. Why is the final layer paper? This way, much less dust is generated. Now for me the main indicator that the trap is successful is the complete absence of smell from it. The problem of ventilation is no less important, especially if this is a living room and you did soundproofing. As long as you haven't treated the walls, your apartment has natural ventilation. But as soon as you have made a room within a room and installed airtight doors, this ventilation is completely disrupted; even an open window will not help, because there is no air movement. Therefore, it is very important to plan how the inflow and outflow of air will be carried out in this room.
What about for people with asthma or dust allergies? I'm not talking about making the panels but just being in the same room with them covered. Does the sound not disturb the panel?
I really wonder why so far only very few people have come up with the idea of simply placing mineral wool in cardboard boxes instead of expensive and elaborate wooden constructions. You can have the boxes custom-made, for example, exactly to the dimensions of a package of fiberglass insulation, such as 125 x 62.5 x 30cm, and then just stack them room-high with about 10cm of space from the wall on all 4 walls where possible, and that's it! To reflect mid and high frequencies, you can simply attach laminate strips to the cardboard. You don't need any fabric and there's no need for drilling, screwing, or using anchors, and you can easily take the packages with you when you move next time. This is probably the simplest and most cost-effective way to build such a bass trap.
because the cardboard is too reflective, the sound waves need to actually make it into the mineral wool to be absorbed. put a piece of the cardboard up to your mouth and try breathing through it, if you can't, it won't do much
@@user-th6rh8zp3t not really, actually many bass traps are designed with denser materials such as hardboard or perforated panels (such as those from gik, their "flex technology" that go infront of the fiberglass/mineral wool and that's exactly what they use it for, to reflect high freq since they will never be a problem, the problem will always be the lows.
The biggest problem with studies is finding out who funded the study. At least one of those studies was done by and at Johns-Manville whish is a company that makes this insulation. When I first started looking at panels made with it, everyone was saying they put scrim on the back to make it look pretty or professional. I believe the reality is to help keep fibres from moving around. I do belive people doing diy vids should say that so some folks who want to cut costs, may think twice about leaving the scrim out. Hell, I've been smoking all kinds of crap for over 60 years and it hasn't killed me yet. I shot off my mouth w/o watching the whole vid. I had been wondering about using plastic instead of cloth. Good to hear.
For the same budget, to create a dead sound studio (for voice over only) should we: Cover 40% of the wall with 3 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary and secondary reflection Cover 20% of the wall with 3 inch hard Roxul on primary reflection only Cover 20% of the wall with 6 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary reflection only Cover 5% of the wall with 6 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary reflection and 30% with 3 inch soft fiberglass insulation on secondary reflection Or any other combination? By covering wall I mean create DIY panels to hang on the wall with a 3-6 inch air gap behind. It a small studio 10'x17' of 9' high with hard wood floor. Thank you very much for sharing your expertise on this topic. Thumbs up from Montréal
Thanks for the video! Subscribed 😊 A question: did you by any chance do some research on the performance of recycled denim vs rocksono solid when deciding on the insulation material for your bass traps? I saw you tested a room using a single absorber design based on 16cm (6″) deep material with a weight of 40kg/m3 (2.5lb/cft) and specifically adviced rocksono solid 45kg/m3 as a European option with some great results. I would like to suggest the possibility of filling my (yet to be build) bass traps with 3 or 4 layers of 45mm recycled denim instead. Some providers state that a 45mm recycled denim would outperform 40-55mm rocksono solid based on measurements on absorption coefficients by offficial instances. When looking it up I see that at the same density of 45kg/m3 40-55mm rocksono solid shows a start of dip at around 1000Hz whilst 45mm recycled denim starts to dip at 500Hz. My aim is to absorb as much of the low end without losing broadband consistency by placing twelve bass traps in my untreated room. Do you think that the suggested insulation material is a good one or would you still recommend Rocksono Solid?
There are acute effects and chronic effects: chronic are long term. Mom had respiratory issues caused by exposure to laundering dad’s clothing which had fibers for about 3 years. The long Term Effects happened about 25-30 years later they can include: Chronic bronchitis Reduced lung function Lung tissue scarring Respiratory diseases like interstitial pneumonia, pulmonary fibrosis, and lung cancer Look it up yourself. N95 filtration would be a good idea inside the box surrounded by the acoustic material protect yourself from fiberglass.
Glass wool and mineral wool can pose a health risk if fibers are inhaled. To use them safely in bass traps or acoustic panels, they should be fully encapsulated. Alternatively, lung-safe materials are a recommended choice for both convenience and health
So in what way does rock wool fibres, glass wool fibres differ from asbestos fibres once they lodge in your lungs. I suspect they don’t differ at all, I suspect none break down over time.
Hey Jesco! If you wrap the panel in a thin plastic it would stop being permeable to air. Would this not defeat the whole point of an absorber? The air should be able to penetrate the insulation material to be effective and the plastic would stop this from happening.
It is my understanding, that thin plastic would only reflect the very high sound waves (so that covering them with a blanket would take care of that). Think of sound waves as pressure waves. They can penetrate different materials without it having to be air all the time. So all the not-so-high pressure waves would go right through the plastic, but then get absorbed by the absorber itself. Or to explain it with a thought experiment: make a box with walls about 1/2 inch thick glass, go inside and hermetically seal it. Let's also imagine you are a wizard 🧙♂ and you know a spell to levitate the box near a busy road (or have a wizard friend do it for you, since according to some RPG rulebooks the suggested method is not possible with you inside the box 😜). You could still hear the road. Not as clearly as without the glass, since a portion of the sound waves will be reflected, but some of those pressure waves will be absorbed by the glass itself (changing into thermal energy) and some will go right through the glass to your ears 👂👂 Hope this helps 😄
Sound waves move through air but it's the energy of the sound wave itself, not the air, that's being absorbed. Plastic will slightly change the way that wave energy is absorbed as it transfers from the medium of air to the plastic and then the absorbing material , but it sounds like Jesco doesn't feel that it will block/reflect a significant amount of energy and I'm inclined to believe him.
lol I’m thinking seran wrap or a garbage bag would have zero impact on sound, some people specifically put diffusers on top of their traps to reflect the mids and highs
Great timely vid Jesco, thanks. If you see this, do you think I'm ok having used rockwool safe n sound slabs covered in a fairly thin, pretty porous (almost see through if stretched) fabric? Or would you still recommend covering in plastic on top of that?
Unfortunately they used asbestos for decades before realising it caused harm 😮… how about activated carbon pellets, I know one AP maker uses that and to me it seems like a really good option. 😊
Glaswolle, Steinwolle, weitere Kunstfasern sowie sehr viele Arten von Staub können, nicht müssen, unter bestimmten Voraussetzungen durchaus krebserregend sein. Dies gilt in der Regel für den Fall der Lungengängigkeit als auch für die Geometrie der Fasern/Partikel. Alternativ zu künstlichen Dämm-Materialien können zu akustischen Zwecken ebenso Natur-Materialien wie z.B. Schafwolle verwendet werden. Diese gibt es auch in Matten- oder Rollenform mit definierten und genormten Materialeigenschaften bzw. -werten. Einfach mal googeln. Natürliche Materialien sind meist, nicht immer, unbedenklich in ihrer Verwendung und somit eher zu bevorzugen. English version : The shown artificial materials can cause, under certain circumstances, cancer. This is depending on size and/or geometry of the particles if they come loose and should be therefore avoided. Generally speaking it is always preferable to use natural materials as e.g. sheep wool. As an example sheep wool is as well available in normed and defined forms in the market which can be as well used for acoustic treatments in an excellent way.
@@leolieb9489 Allerletzter Versuch, da meine bisher versuchten VIER Antworten alle verschwunden sind, obwohl ich wirklich nur ganz nett die Frage beantwortet habe?!?!? Wenn Sie auf Google die Suchbegriffe in folgenden drei Variationen eingeben, finden Sie auf jeden Fall alle Informationen welche Sie benötigen. "Akustik Dämmstoff Schafwolle/Holzfaser/Naturfaser". Die Materialien gibt es in Deutschland im Baustoffhandel/Baumarkt oder natürlich auch Online. Ich hoffe Ihnen mit meiner Antwort geholfen zu haben. Mit freundlichen Grüßen.
I love all the good info you put out here. I was wondering, do you have guide on how you would go about building Rockwool panels? Materials, thickness, what kind of Rockwool and so on? -I'm in Denmark so I think the materials are somewhat the same. Thanks again. :)
This is not correct, at all. I've done a number of upgrades to my home over the years including reinsulating any rooms I remove the drywall in and the crawlspace in the attic. Standard fiberglass insulation is very bad for you if inhaled. It's especially difficult if you have asthma or any other lung issue. You may also be allergic to it if it touches your skin and the reaction could be fatal if you suffer from really bad allergies. Have an epi-pen near you if you are messing with it. Non fiberglass insulation is about the same expect it doesn't irritate the skin. Anything getting in your lungs that a foreign material is not really healthy. Now, are the fibers from the insulation going to leak out all over the place once you build the traps? Probably not. If the back is open and the insulation is showing then it is possible it could. If it's completely encased then it shouldn't be a problem. I've never had any issues. If you are building traps/panels then the best advise is to wear protection and that includes, eye, mask and cloths you can take off and wash immediately. I'd also recommend assembling the traps outside where the fibers won't be enclosed in a room and/or easily moved from one area of the home to another. When cutting, use either a sharp knife or a sharp pair of scissors will prevent the fibers from ripping. The stuff isn't a death sentence for sure. Even asbestos in small amount is harmless if proper safety measure are adhered to. TDLR; I'm not a doctor, but the stuff can cause skin irritation or an allergic reaction. Fibers getting in your mouth, nose, throat or lungs is not pleasent and ill advised if you have any sort of breathing problems. First time I messed with insulation and didn't take the proper precautions I was coughing for a week and hacking up the worst phlegm of my life.
@@leolieb9489 For bass traps you want the material to be as thick as possible. You have to decide how much material is okay for you depending if it's a studio or home studio or your living room. Personally I used Thermoflex in their original packaging in all empty corners. I put them on Ikea Kallax shelfs for example. It's not pretty but it works. I also have early reflection absorbers on the side walls and the ceiling. With this I get reverb time of 200-300ms down to 50hz. With my special monitor system I even have a reverb time of ~300ms down to 25hz. But with regular speakers this might be hard/impossible to achieve but of course it depends on how much material you use.
In building a bass trap, what about the rubber-type of material that floor mats are made of? Or the rubber foam-type of garden kneeling pads that you can find at dollar stores? And how about using ceiling acoustic panels in the build? Also, what about carpet material as one of the layers? These are some of the items I'm considering using. Will not use insulation materials in my house.
I believe the plastic is so thin that any reflections are only at high frequencies (which are obviously easy to remove by other means). Lower frequencies don't even notice it. Logically if it was that reflective, we'd all be using it for sound isolation as well.
From what I've read, If you're building basstraps then it shouldn't matter. That thin plastic will pretty much only reflect the high frequencies but the low freq will still get through and be absorbed. If you're only building them for the high freq absorbtion then probably avoid but doubt it will make a huge difference. There's a give n take i assume, safety or more performance (which is probably 10% or less).
I have a lot of allergies and that has kept me off rockwool panels. Is acoustic foam a good alternative? If so, which brand, thickness, density, etc. would you recommend? Great content. Thanks!
I don't know how rock/glass wool is made in US, but in east europe it made with phenol-formaldehyde glue. Both are conceragens and toxic. I doubt in USA they made differently.
I'd add safety glasses to the gloves, long sleeves, and a mask list to be used while building traps. Every factory environment I've been in (USA), requires safety glasses.
So what would you recommend using for bass traps in a 48” x 48” Whisper Room? After reading the bass trap review you did on Auralex, they are not helpful.
This is a great subject, the one video that completely reassured me was one over on the home theatre guru channel where he is treating his new room and made the point of showing that all American h-vac system use fibreglass boxes for duct work, the air is passing over it all day long. His point was if you have a problem sticking it on the walls for acoustic treatment then you should not have ac n your house. Also lots of restaurants have fibreglass acoustic panels above you while your eating, have a look around next time you are in a pizza express here in the uk and alike
The fact that glass fiber is being used in these purposes does not prove that they are totally safe. Glass fiber emissions from AC ducts, mufflers and acoustic panels do occur - it's just a matter of how much emissions are going to cause issues. The fiber emissions from these sources can pose a potential health risk especially as those AC installations and acoustic treatments get older and the materials start to wear down and deteriorate. It is absolutely possible to get respiratory and other health issues due to glass fiber emissions from these sources. Using glass fiber for acoustic panels and bass traps will still probably be ok as long as the fiberglass is insulated properly. As Jesco mentions in the video, caution should be taken when handling the material while building these devices and the glass fiber should be sealed with plastic or similar to prevent fibers from shedding and spreading into the air.
Breathing air born fibers does have a negative affect on our lungs. They cause us to gradually lose lung capacity over our lives. We consider this to be normal, so we can't isolate normal exposure and it's cumulative effect from the one time I built a bass trap. The health risk of all air born fibers is the same, whether fiberglass, mineral wool, wood fibers, aesbestos, etc. (Aesbestos really is NOT any more scary than sawdust!) When inhaled, some of these fibers get trapped in our lungs, which triggers an immune response which decreases our lung capacity over time. The correct question to ask is, "Do absorbers in my room increase the amount of fibers in the air? The answer to this is no. Similarly, are you going to breath so many fibers while making an absorber to prematurely damage your lungs? It is very unlikely. However, you should wear a well sealing mask, because common sense says it is better to not breathe it. The lung damage associated with aesbestos happened to people with long term exposure to massive quantities of airborn fibers. Factory workers said it seemed to be snowing aesbestos, for example. But I have also met a man who was a pioneer in the cellulose insulation industry, who suffered the same lung damage. He admitted he knew he should wear a mask, but he didn't. And it was tragic; he was sharp as a tack, but he just couldn't breathe! So wear a mask when you're working with any fibrous material, and make sure it is contained in fabric. It'll be just fine.
You can also look at research for the fibers dissolving in synthetic lungs. Organic fibers end up being more dangerous than inorganic fibers oddly enough.
wow what timing. Ive been emailing gik acoustics and my doctor the last few months about me possibly reacting to the fibers even when their encased by fabric. the 244 gik bass traps. i have chronic rhinitis thats persistent even when taking allergy medications for it and no one knows whats triggering it but i told my doctor i notice my nose getting extremely dry and agitated a few hours right when i put them in room so not sure if these are aggravating my already issue of rhinitis but something is not right...what else simple things can you guys recommend putting over it to possibly stop me from reacting to them. i cant tell you how many times i put them back in my room not ready to give up on my acoustic dream...i tried sheets now praying it would help lol
no, it won't stop them, they are so tiny you can't see them, wrap the material in thin plastic and then in thin polyester wadding, got that tip from a pro from gearspace/geaslutz.
But how do you build a vent then? I've seen a some builds where people more or less just fill a pipe with rockwool and no sound gets in an out. but obviously the fibers will be a problem?!
Hello, BIG THANKS for all your videos on your channel...!! 🙏🙏🙏 I give to all a BIG TIPS for working with stone & glass fibers. BEFORE WORKING You MUST put grease on your skin (for example: olive oil, coco oil, ..). And wear gloves, glasses, mask & complete tyvek suit for working with fibers. When you have finished your job, DON'T RUB YOUR SKIN...!!! BECAUSE YOU WILL BREAK THE FIBERS IN MORE LITTLE PIECES AND IT WILL EASILY ENTER THRU YOUR SKIN, EYES FOR A FEW DAYS. Take a shower with COLD WATER WITH HIGH PRESSURE JET on your skin. After rinsing your skin with the jet, wash with soap many times and rinse many many times. THE GREASE WILL TRAP THE FIBER AND THE SOAP WILL REMOVE THE GREASE (Full of fibers) EASILY WITHOUT ANY ISSUES ON YOUR SKIN...!!! VERY IMPORTANT TIPS...!!!
It has been used for decades as an insulation material 99% of the time behind dry wall. Glass wool is also different from stone wool. Thin plastic will not stop all fibers, but will minimize.
Is thin plastic full of holes that are big enough for the glass wool particles go through? Are the particles so tiny, that they can go through the plastic on a molecular level? If so, my mind is 🤯🤯
How so? In a studio, there are sound waves that could cause fibers to be pushed out of the treatment panel. I highly doubt snoring generates enough sound waves to cause the same effect 😂
Sorry, but your advice doesn't make sense and is contradictory: You state there is no health risk, yet you suggest wearing a face mask and wrapping the insulation in plastic to keep yourself safe, implying that you do in fact believe there is a possible health risk
Let me add an aspect. I have studied solid state physics and nano physics, and my father has been an internationally acclaimed Professor and expert in everything related to glass (including glass fibers).
The potential danger of rockwool and glass fibers is primarily related to their size and form factor, long thin fibres of a certain size being potentially critical, regardless the material. Nano particles from glass or stone develop a certain behaviour in relation to body cells that is based on physical properties (size, attractive forces), and therefore can potentially cause exactly the same damage as asbestos fibres. The difference to asbestos is however that some 25 or 30 years ago they changed the chemical composition of the glass and rock fibres (to be exact, the acid-basis balance) in such a way that the body can dissolve them typically within one month. My father was instrumental in asserting this change in composition. This then led to the classification of being harmless because it is assumed that the body will not develop a cancer around these fibres within that month. But of course this also depends on dosage, and still they are entering the body before being dissolved.
So, two things to take away from this:
1. Be extra careful if removing old glass wool or mineral wool insulation from a roof or a wall that probably is more than 30 years old.
2. While there is no reason to be hysteric, it also does not hurt to minimize the dosage of exposition. So, cutting the mats outside, using gloves and a mask, wrapping into foil - these are all measures for minimizing the dosage and therefore principally good ideas.
I designed music related rooms and halls for 25 years and react now heavily to contact with glasfiber. Might be an allergic reaction or a too high exposure. What if all the research is done by the company that sells the stuff?
how will our lungs drop organic material out when is it consider like "Not intruder"?
I clicked this video not because of its content, but because the comments are usually the source of actual information... in this case I got more than I bargained for - thank you!
What foil should we use? Is the isover membrane foil usable to protect for exposage ?
@@marcus268Yes, certainly membrane foil is the luxury solution, except that it might be somewhat stiff. I have used pe foil from the hardware store. If I remember it right it could be 0.06 to 0.1 mm thick. I also bought a membrane foil (for much money) but that ended unused in my storage, mainly because I considered it to be too stiff. Hope that helps.
I used acoustic insulation made from recycled jeans for my acoustic panels. I don't know if it is widely available, but here in the Netherlands it is made by Métisse. It has pretty good specs, can be cut without any use of masks and does not release harmful fibers.
I know this material, not sure if this is just a commercial name but I've always know it as "Geopannel" here in Spain. It's actually made from a mixture of cotton and synthetic fibres, a.k.a. old clothes. Its was designed as an insulator to put between thin mortar walls, and for automotive industries and I've seen it pulled from commercial studio facilities some times. I was considering it as an alternative to fibre glass, as it has a better consistency over time, similar density and and also to avoid my dog inhaling fibres. They have a more sensible and delicate nose than humans do. In the end I think I'm going to go for a mix of materials, as I found some rockwool pannels very cheap, recently.
This is a good product for reusing what may otherwise go to waste. BUT...... just because it's made from a natural or other common material doesn't mean it can't be harmless.
I did not say the material is harmless, I only stated that it does not release fibers like other materials like Rock or Glasswoll does. This stuff contains 85-100% recycled textile fibers (min 70% cotton), up to 15% polyester fibers and anti mold and bacteria additives. Actually it is made in France and they made a UA-cam video: ua-cam.com/video/nboNKuoTW4k/v-deo.html
@@sousapro Yes, but it does release fibers. They may not be as harmful as glass or rock wool, but they are still airbourne fibers/particulate and inhaling them should be avoided. And do you really want to inhale anti mold and bactericidal chemicals? Where it's made is irrelevant. It's not a difficult thing to understand. You do you. But don't suggest it's harmless to other people when that's not true.
@@wingnutbert9685 Yeah they release fibers, textile fibers. The ones we all wear and sleep in.
it would be ridiculous to assume that fibers made from recycled denim would be the same as fiberglass.
You have a point on the chemicals, not sure how dangerous those are.
I was worried about it, so I covered my traps with a couple of layers of quilts/doonas. I couldn't afford the rock wool to fill them, but the empty boxes covered in quilts made a huge difference in my room anyway! In the end, I filled all 6 with feather quilts and pillows, after washing, they had become quite dense.
They're working very well! They didn't cost much either, pallets from the side of the road, and quilts and pillows from the dog bed bin at the Op-shop! 🙂
Most airborne fibers will settle out over time, especially if you close any vents so you can easily wear a face mask when moving to panels around then vacuuming the room after a couple of hours of letting any fibers settle. And if you're still worried, you can easily use a box fan with a pair of filters formed into a triangle/wedge shape to forcibly pull the fibers from the air by drawing air through the filters. (See contraptions that many had used during the big fires in the Pacific Northwest)
just finished building Rockwool filled Acoustic panels, thanks for the information.
Even tho i didnt wrap them in plastic.. only fabric
Rock wool is spun cement not fiberglass different material all together. I don’t k ow what the effects are but I would think they are less.
Inhaling anything into your lungs other than air can have an effect, especially an accumulative one. Plus, there's a chance that natural material has to be chemically treated, if used for building insulation, to meet fire safety standards. Like many "bad" materials, it's fine if it's just sitting behind a sealed space like a wall, or once inside an acoustic panel. But disturbing it with moving it and cutting it is a different thing. Those tests are determining the safety of a material in a static, undisturbed state. Not when in close contact handling situations. And being used in the building industry for years is just an absurd measurement. Asbestos, used for years. Then everyone lost their minds over it. Justified? Depends. Sitting in a wall or encapsulated in a medium like paint or stucco or plaster, totally fine. But later on, when removal is needed, it's a problem. Or if a plaster wall needs to be sanded for refinishing or taken down, it's a problem.
I hate to be a safety Karen, but I also feel it's a responsibility to make corrections to incorrect assumptions for those who may follow misinformation. 👍 So just wear a mask. It's cheap and easy.
Well, it's actually not *that* easy. Many years ago I met one of the head maintenance engineers for the machines at R**kwool plants. What he told me is: the "new" R**kwool which is produced in the Czech Republic since 1998, with modern machines, definitely is safe as the diameter of the fibers is bigger than the pulmonary capillaries. The "classic" product you get in the US or in other parts of the world he wasn't "so sure about" (now that he's no longer among us, I can safely say that R**kwool knew that its product should be used with some caution).
I use plutonium-dipped asbestos.
Question: When I built my bass traps 10yrs ago, the instructions were to find an "acoustically transparent" fabric.To test that, you would just see if air would blow trough the fabric. If you can put a plastic sheet on the isolation material, that seems to me like it would cancel that effect. Does that mean that the need for "blow trough" fabric is a myth? Great content, thank you soo much, I always enjoy watching your videos!
A plastic barrier will have an effect on high frequencies reflecting it back, but the low frequencies will pass through, vibrate the material and lose energy.
I think he was talking about bass traps specifically if you were to wrap it then it's gonna work just fine.
A "blow-thru" fabric won't stop fibers from spreading. There are, however, acoustically transparent fabrics out there that won't let air through.
Hi all! I’ll tell you about my experience in building several DIY studios:
- Dust! Fabric and mineral wool generate dust.
- Smell! Mineral wool molecules constantly scatter, as a result, the smaller the room and the worse the ventilation, the stronger the smell and worsening breathing/allergies.
- Absorption! In the low-end, mineral wool doesn't work as well as you'd expect, so it's important to find the right position for the monitors in the room. First the monitors and the room, only then the absorption. You should also immediately look towards membrane traps.
As a result, I came to wrap the mineral wool in plastic bags and wrap the final trap in paper and seal it tightly. Why is the final layer paper? This way, much less dust is generated.
Now for me the main indicator that the trap is successful is the complete absence of smell from it.
The problem of ventilation is no less important, especially if this is a living room and you did soundproofing.
As long as you haven't treated the walls, your apartment has natural ventilation. But as soon as you have made a room within a room and installed airtight doors, this ventilation is completely disrupted; even an open window will not help, because there is no air movement.
Therefore, it is very important to plan how the inflow and outflow of air will be carried out in this room.
What about for people with asthma or dust allergies? I'm not talking about making the panels but just being in the same room with them covered. Does the sound not disturb the panel?
I really wonder why so far only very few people have come up with the idea of simply placing mineral wool in cardboard boxes instead of expensive and elaborate wooden constructions. You can have the boxes custom-made, for example, exactly to the dimensions of a package of fiberglass insulation, such as 125 x 62.5 x 30cm, and then just stack them room-high with about 10cm of space from the wall on all 4 walls where possible, and that's it! To reflect mid and high frequencies, you can simply attach laminate strips to the cardboard. You don't need any fabric and there's no need for drilling, screwing, or using anchors, and you can easily take the packages with you when you move next time. This is probably the simplest and most cost-effective way to build such a bass trap.
because the cardboard is too reflective, the sound waves need to actually make it into the mineral wool to be absorbed. put a piece of the cardboard up to your mouth and try breathing through it, if you can't, it won't do much
I bought a bail of insulation and put a bed sheet over it
@@user-th6rh8zp3t not really, actually many bass traps are designed with denser materials such as hardboard or perforated panels (such as those from gik, their "flex technology" that go infront of the fiberglass/mineral wool and that's exactly what they use it for, to reflect high freq since they will never be a problem, the problem will always be the lows.
The biggest problem with studies is finding out who funded the study. At least one of those studies was done by and at Johns-Manville whish is a company that makes this insulation.
When I first started looking at panels made with it, everyone was saying they put scrim on the back to make it look pretty or professional. I believe the reality is to help keep fibres from moving around. I do belive people doing diy vids should say that so some folks who want to cut costs, may think twice about leaving the scrim out. Hell, I've been smoking all kinds of crap for over 60 years and it hasn't killed me yet. I shot off my mouth w/o watching the whole vid. I had been wondering about using plastic instead of cloth. Good to hear.
For the same budget, to create a dead sound studio (for voice over only) should we:
Cover 40% of the wall with 3 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary and secondary reflection
Cover 20% of the wall with 3 inch hard Roxul on primary reflection only
Cover 20% of the wall with 6 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary reflection only
Cover 5% of the wall with 6 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary reflection and 30% with 3 inch soft fiberglass insulation on secondary reflection
Or any other combination?
By covering wall I mean create DIY panels to hang on the wall with a 3-6 inch air gap behind.
It a small studio 10'x17' of 9' high with hard wood floor.
Thank you very much for sharing your expertise on this topic.
Thumbs up from Montréal
Thanks for the video! Subscribed 😊
A question: did you by any chance do some research on the performance of recycled denim vs rocksono solid when deciding on the insulation material for your bass traps? I saw you tested a room using a single absorber design based on 16cm (6″) deep material with a weight of 40kg/m3 (2.5lb/cft) and specifically adviced rocksono solid 45kg/m3 as a European option with some great results.
I would like to suggest the possibility of filling my (yet to be build) bass traps with 3 or 4 layers of 45mm recycled denim instead. Some providers state that a 45mm recycled denim would outperform 40-55mm rocksono solid based on measurements on absorption coefficients by offficial instances.
When looking it up I see that at the same density of 45kg/m3 40-55mm rocksono solid shows a start of dip at around 1000Hz whilst 45mm recycled denim starts to dip at 500Hz.
My aim is to absorb as much of the low end without losing broadband consistency by placing twelve bass traps in my untreated room. Do you think that the suggested insulation material is a good one or would you still recommend Rocksono Solid?
There are acute effects and chronic effects: chronic are long term. Mom had respiratory issues caused by exposure to laundering dad’s clothing which had fibers for about 3 years. The long Term Effects happened about 25-30 years later they can include: Chronic bronchitis
Reduced lung function
Lung tissue scarring
Respiratory diseases like interstitial pneumonia, pulmonary fibrosis, and lung cancer
Look it up yourself. N95 filtration would be a good idea inside the box surrounded by the acoustic material protect yourself from fiberglass.
Glass wool and mineral wool can pose a health risk if fibers are inhaled. To use them safely in bass traps or acoustic panels, they should be fully encapsulated. Alternatively, lung-safe materials are a recommended choice for both convenience and health
Thank you very much for this one. It answers all the questions I had. You're a star, sharing all this knowledge. I appreciate it a lot.
So in what way does rock wool fibres, glass wool fibres differ from asbestos fibres once they lodge in your lungs. I suspect they don’t differ at all, I suspect none break down over time.
Hey Jesco! If you wrap the panel in a thin plastic it would stop being permeable to air. Would this not defeat the whole point of an absorber? The air should be able to penetrate the insulation material to be effective and the plastic would stop this from happening.
It is my understanding, that thin plastic would only reflect the very high sound waves (so that covering them with a blanket would take care of that). Think of sound waves as pressure waves. They can penetrate different materials without it having to be air all the time. So all the not-so-high pressure waves would go right through the plastic, but then get absorbed by the absorber itself.
Or to explain it with a thought experiment: make a box with walls about 1/2 inch thick glass, go inside and hermetically seal it. Let's also imagine you are a wizard 🧙♂ and you know a spell to levitate the box near a busy road (or have a wizard friend do it for you, since according to some RPG rulebooks the suggested method is not possible with you inside the box 😜). You could still hear the road. Not as clearly as without the glass, since a portion of the sound waves will be reflected, but some of those pressure waves will be absorbed by the glass itself (changing into thermal energy) and some will go right through the glass to your ears 👂👂
Hope this helps 😄
Sound waves move through air but it's the energy of the sound wave itself, not the air, that's being absorbed. Plastic will slightly change the way that wave energy is absorbed as it transfers from the medium of air to the plastic and then the absorbing material , but it sounds like Jesco doesn't feel that it will block/reflect a significant amount of energy and I'm inclined to believe him.
lol I’m thinking seran wrap or a garbage bag would have zero impact on sound, some people specifically put diffusers on top of their traps to reflect the mids and highs
Great timely vid Jesco, thanks. If you see this, do you think I'm ok having used rockwool safe n sound slabs covered in a fairly thin, pretty porous (almost see through if stretched) fabric? Or would you still recommend covering in plastic on top of that?
Unfortunately they used asbestos for decades before realising it caused harm 😮… how about activated carbon pellets, I know one AP maker uses that and to me it seems like a really good option. 😊
Glaswolle, Steinwolle, weitere Kunstfasern sowie sehr viele Arten von Staub können, nicht müssen, unter bestimmten Voraussetzungen durchaus krebserregend sein. Dies gilt in der Regel für den Fall der Lungengängigkeit als auch für die Geometrie der Fasern/Partikel. Alternativ zu künstlichen Dämm-Materialien können zu akustischen Zwecken ebenso Natur-Materialien wie z.B. Schafwolle verwendet werden. Diese gibt es auch in Matten- oder Rollenform mit definierten und genormten Materialeigenschaften bzw. -werten. Einfach mal googeln. Natürliche Materialien sind meist, nicht immer, unbedenklich in ihrer Verwendung und somit eher zu bevorzugen.
English version :
The shown artificial materials can cause, under certain circumstances, cancer. This is depending on size and/or geometry of the particles if they come loose and should be therefore avoided. Generally speaking it is always preferable to use natural materials as e.g. sheep wool. As an example sheep wool is as well available in normed and defined forms in the market which can be as well used for acoustic treatments in an excellent way.
Gibt es auch andere natürlichen Materialien als Schafwolle und wo kann man die in Deutschland kaufen?
@@leolieb9489 Allerletzter Versuch, da meine bisher versuchten VIER Antworten alle verschwunden sind, obwohl ich wirklich nur ganz nett die Frage beantwortet habe?!?!?
Wenn Sie auf Google die Suchbegriffe in folgenden drei Variationen eingeben, finden Sie auf jeden Fall alle Informationen welche Sie benötigen. "Akustik Dämmstoff Schafwolle/Holzfaser/Naturfaser". Die Materialien gibt es in Deutschland im Baustoffhandel/Baumarkt oder natürlich auch Online. Ich hoffe Ihnen mit meiner Antwort geholfen zu haben. Mit freundlichen Grüßen.
I love all the good info you put out here.
I was wondering, do you have guide on how you would go about building Rockwool panels?
Materials, thickness, what kind of Rockwool and so on?
-I'm in Denmark so I think the materials are somewhat the same.
Thanks again.
:)
ja det kunne være cool :)
Han har et betalt kurse på hans hjemmeside der tager dig hele vejen igennem.
@@Mikkelfrost
This is not correct, at all. I've done a number of upgrades to my home over the years including reinsulating any rooms I remove the drywall in and the crawlspace in the attic.
Standard fiberglass insulation is very bad for you if inhaled. It's especially difficult if you have asthma or any other lung issue. You may also be allergic to it if it touches your skin and the reaction could be fatal if you suffer from really bad allergies. Have an epi-pen near you if you are messing with it.
Non fiberglass insulation is about the same expect it doesn't irritate the skin. Anything getting in your lungs that a foreign material is not really healthy.
Now, are the fibers from the insulation going to leak out all over the place once you build the traps? Probably not. If the back is open and the insulation is showing then it is possible it could. If it's completely encased then it shouldn't be a problem. I've never had any issues.
If you are building traps/panels then the best advise is to wear protection and that includes, eye, mask and cloths you can take off and wash immediately. I'd also recommend assembling the traps outside where the fibers won't be enclosed in a room and/or easily moved from one area of the home to another. When cutting, use either a sharp knife or a sharp pair of scissors will prevent the fibers from ripping.
The stuff isn't a death sentence for sure. Even asbestos in small amount is harmless if proper safety measure are adhered to.
TDLR; I'm not a doctor, but the stuff can cause skin irritation or an allergic reaction. Fibers getting in your mouth, nose, throat or lungs is not pleasent and ill advised if you have any sort of breathing problems.
First time I messed with insulation and didn't take the proper precautions I was coughing for a week and hacking up the worst phlegm of my life.
Guys there is the same material made from wood. Check Gutex Thermoflex and Steico Flex. But of course it's more expensive.
Can you recoomend an instruction on how to build a bass trap with Gutex Thermoflex or Steico Flex? :)
@@leolieb9489 For bass traps you want the material to be as thick as possible. You have to decide how much material is okay for you depending if it's a studio or home studio or your living room. Personally I used Thermoflex in their original packaging in all empty corners. I put them on Ikea Kallax shelfs for example. It's not pretty but it works. I also have early reflection absorbers on the side walls and the ceiling. With this I get reverb time of 200-300ms down to 50hz. With my special monitor system I even have a reverb time of ~300ms down to 25hz. But with regular speakers this might be hard/impossible to achieve but of course it depends on how much material you use.
In building a bass trap, what about the rubber-type of material that floor mats are made of? Or the rubber foam-type of garden kneeling pads that you can find at dollar stores?
And how about using ceiling acoustic panels in the build? Also, what about carpet material as one of the layers?
These are some of the items I'm considering using. Will not use insulation materials in my house.
Hello , if i put that thin plastic in my Bass Traps it will be fine, but the same thing applies to my panels or does it have another effect?
Mmm I believe the consensus was no plastic because it creates reflection? Currently building panels with no plastic. Rockwool...
I believe the plastic is so thin that any reflections are only at high frequencies (which are obviously easy to remove by other means). Lower frequencies don't even notice it. Logically if it was that reflective, we'd all be using it for sound isolation as well.
From what I've read, If you're building basstraps then it shouldn't matter. That thin plastic will pretty much only reflect the high frequencies but the low freq will still get through and be absorbed. If you're only building them for the high freq absorbtion then probably avoid but doubt it will make a huge difference. There's a give n take i assume, safety or more performance (which is probably 10% or less).
I have a lot of allergies and that has kept me off rockwool panels. Is acoustic foam a good alternative? If so, which brand, thickness, density, etc. would you recommend? Great content. Thanks!
Here's a question: how long do these materials last for before they start to decay/wither, if at all?
Is it enough to wrap it in felt instead of plastic?
I don't know how rock/glass wool is made in US, but in east europe it made with phenol-formaldehyde glue. Both are conceragens and toxic. I doubt in USA they made differently.
I'd add safety glasses to the gloves, long sleeves, and a mask list to be used while building traps. Every factory environment I've been in (USA), requires safety glasses.
So what would you recommend using for bass traps in a 48” x 48” Whisper Room? After reading the bass trap review you did on Auralex, they are not helpful.
This is a great subject, the one video that completely reassured me was one over on the home theatre guru channel where he is treating his new room and made the point of showing that all American h-vac system use fibreglass boxes for duct work, the air is passing over it all day long. His point was if you have a problem sticking it on the walls for acoustic treatment then you should not have ac n your house. Also lots of restaurants have fibreglass acoustic panels above you while your eating, have a look around next time you are in a pizza express here in the uk and alike
The fact that glass fiber is being used in these purposes does not prove that they are totally safe. Glass fiber emissions from AC ducts, mufflers and acoustic panels do occur - it's just a matter of how much emissions are going to cause issues. The fiber emissions from these sources can pose a potential health risk especially as those AC installations and acoustic treatments get older and the materials start to wear down and deteriorate. It is absolutely possible to get respiratory and other health issues due to glass fiber emissions from these sources.
Using glass fiber for acoustic panels and bass traps will still probably be ok as long as the fiberglass is insulated properly. As Jesco mentions in the video, caution should be taken when handling the material while building these devices and the glass fiber should be sealed with plastic or similar to prevent fibers from shedding and spreading into the air.
Breathing air born fibers does have a negative affect on our lungs. They cause us to gradually lose lung capacity over our lives. We consider this to be normal, so we can't isolate normal exposure and it's cumulative effect from the one time I built a bass trap.
The health risk of all air born fibers is the same, whether fiberglass, mineral wool, wood fibers, aesbestos, etc. (Aesbestos really is NOT any more scary than sawdust!) When inhaled, some of these fibers get trapped in our lungs, which triggers an immune response which decreases our lung capacity over time.
The correct question to ask is, "Do absorbers in my room increase the amount of fibers in the air? The answer to this is no. Similarly, are you going to breath so many fibers while making an absorber to prematurely damage your lungs? It is very unlikely. However, you should wear a well sealing mask, because common sense says it is better to not breathe it.
The lung damage associated with aesbestos happened to people with long term exposure to massive quantities of airborn fibers. Factory workers said it seemed to be snowing aesbestos, for example. But I have also met a man who was a pioneer in the cellulose insulation industry, who suffered the same lung damage. He admitted he knew he should wear a mask, but he didn't. And it was tragic; he was sharp as a tack, but he just couldn't breathe!
So wear a mask when you're working with any fibrous material, and make sure it is contained in fabric. It'll be just fine.
Have you used the 140kg type insulation foam instead of wool? Any idea how it performs?
You can also look at research for the fibers dissolving in synthetic lungs. Organic fibers end up being more dangerous than inorganic fibers oddly enough.
wow what timing. Ive been emailing gik acoustics and my doctor the last few months about me possibly reacting to the fibers even when their encased by fabric. the 244 gik bass traps.
i have chronic rhinitis thats persistent even when taking allergy medications for it and no one knows whats triggering it but i told my doctor i notice my nose getting extremely dry and agitated a few hours right when i put them in room so not sure if these are aggravating my already issue of rhinitis but something is not right...what else simple things can you guys recommend putting over it to possibly stop me from reacting to them. i cant tell you how many times i put them back in my room not ready to give up on my acoustic dream...i tried sheets now praying it would help lol
Hello.. How did you managed to solve the issue? Are you okay now?
What if you haven't used a plastic sheet to contain the material. Will a fabric be enough to contain the fibers?
That's also my question. Also, what fabric is best used? Because I guess you don't want really dense fabric because air cant get trough it
no, it won't stop them, they are so tiny you can't see them, wrap the material in thin plastic and then in thin polyester wadding, got that tip from a pro from gearspace/geaslutz.
My guy uses a suede-like soft fabric and I'd hate to ruin the aesthetics of them by covering with plastic. I know 'safety first' but damm
@@deltahomicide9300 the plastic can be inside and non visible
@@IODBaaL I see. Fml that’s quite an undertaking especially with my ceiling panels
But how do you build a vent then? I've seen a some builds where people more or less just fill a pipe with rockwool and no sound gets in an out. but obviously the fibers will be a problem?!
You cover it with a breathable cloth
The duct work to the vent is interrupted by a box with alternating baffles, similar to a car muffler.
I've been LOOKING for this OMG!
Rockwool definitely does a number on my lungs and makes me cough, even after I wrapped it up in terry cloth.
Great content! What about the Basotect stuff?
Basotect is a foam made from melamine - it doesn't release anything at all, even if you hit it.
@@patrickguth3796 maybe formaldehyde evaporation becomes an issue after installing large quantities in a small room?
full respect
Hello, BIG THANKS for all your videos on your channel...!! 🙏🙏🙏 I give to all a BIG TIPS for working with stone & glass fibers. BEFORE WORKING You MUST put grease on your skin (for example: olive oil, coco oil, ..). And wear gloves, glasses, mask & complete tyvek suit for working with fibers. When you have finished your job, DON'T RUB YOUR SKIN...!!! BECAUSE YOU WILL BREAK THE FIBERS IN MORE LITTLE PIECES AND IT WILL EASILY ENTER THRU YOUR SKIN, EYES FOR A FEW DAYS. Take a shower with COLD WATER WITH HIGH PRESSURE JET on your skin. After rinsing your skin with the jet, wash with soap many times and rinse many many times. THE GREASE WILL TRAP THE FIBER AND THE SOAP WILL REMOVE THE GREASE (Full of fibers) EASILY WITHOUT ANY ISSUES ON YOUR SKIN...!!! VERY IMPORTANT TIPS...!!!
Now I'm going to collect those dry cleaner plastic wraps ♻
Love you
It has been used for decades as an insulation material 99% of the time behind dry wall. Glass wool is also different from stone wool. Thin plastic will not stop all fibers, but will minimize.
Is thin plastic full of holes that are big enough for the glass wool particles go through? Are the particles so tiny, that they can go through the plastic on a molecular level? If so, my mind is 🤯🤯
Buy a air purifier and leave it on for a few hours while you’re not working
GLOOOOOOOOOOUEEEEE
I'm not into lung cancer! :( Cloth wont protect you in the end
Health hazard or no -- would not recommend anyone to fill their rooms where they sleep to have this on!
How so? In a studio, there are sound waves that could cause fibers to be pushed out of the treatment panel. I highly doubt snoring generates enough sound waves to cause the same effect 😂
Sorry, but your advice doesn't make sense and is contradictory: You state there is no health risk, yet you suggest wearing a face mask and wrapping the insulation in plastic to keep yourself safe, implying that you do in fact believe there is a possible health risk
Working with the materials vs them just sitting there are two very different situations
That's what people struggle to understand