Why I don't like other gamedev YouTubers
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
- This is going to get me some hate I feel... But I personally don't spend much time watching other UA-camrs, and I think you shouldn't do so either, for a wide variety of reasons.
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Timestamps:
00:00 Should you watch this video?
00:51 Twisted reality
04:15 Wrong development order
06:58 Oversimplifies gamedev
10:32 Overcomplicating tools
12:12 Closing thoughts
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Have you been living under a rock? There is a lot of YT game dev who share their real numbers, I think the indie game dev community is very open and transparent in general. There are tons of data about people sharing their experiences and numbers.
I know right!? Most gamedev channels I know are open about their numbers.
The correct message should be: "know how to differentiate entertainment channels (like "Dani") vs useful gamedev channels"
I do think that he may have seen some bad apples, even thou the community is great, doesn't mean that every single individual in it, is great.
While the indie community is fantastic, It is as sensationalized and profit driven as any other domain. You are absolutely a dollar sign to most UA-camrs, Asset Stores, Engines, Blogs, Steam Pages, etc. And all of those entities are trying to figure out how to monetize your existence regardless of whether you ever release a successful title.
Thus, I think his advice is spot on. Pick an engine and go make a game. That is the only way you will have a basis for evaluating all these UA-camrs.
@@gameshenanigans That seems to mainly be more because of survivorship bias tbh
@@gameshenanigans So you think most indie youtube devs are trying to monetize and milk your money? Maybe if you are Unity. A lot of it is entertainment, both people sitting a home doing it in their spare time, making little to no money. Then maybe 1% is actually making some money on sponsorships and ads, but most of them are more interested in releasing good games, like Thin Matrix, Jonas Tyroller etc. Maybe there is a few UA-camr Game Dev who is only that, like Bad Game Dev, but the majority is just trying to get their game seen, and doesn't make much money if any.
Devlogs don't convert to wishlists because their audience isn't gamers, it's aspiring developers.
Indeed buddy game developers need an audience for their game
Same reason things like #screenshotsaturday and /r/indiedev don't work either for marketing, it's all a big circlejerk. -M
People don't seem to understand that gamers want to be entertained, and the only people who find devlogs entertaining are game devs. The only people who even get served up your devlogs by the UA-cam algorithm are the ones who have searched for game development related videos. In which case they're an aspiring developer and probably won't buy your game just like you won't buy every other indie devs game because they spend all their money on their own game or iconic indie games to study them.
If you are working on a game, stop doom scrolling through UA-cam and only watch videos when you are busy doing something else productive as well, or when you need help on a specific topic. Try channels like iheartgamedev or tarodev for these sorts of things. And for the love of god avoid channels like Thomas Brush, he's the epitome of the snake oil salesmen game developer.
Personally, I have a bit of an ace up my sleeve in that I'm an experienced asset creator (mainly music assets) and I'm now getting into gamedev myself. By tweeting and, so I'm intending, sharing occasional videos about my gamedev progress, I can give fellow devs something to watch, and I also happen to have something some of them might want to buy to use in their own games.
This wasn't intentional, but it was a fun realisation when I had it. :B
@@stevage777I think Thomas gives good content and some sound advice.. some if it is a little exaggerated and long winded, but it's still decent.. Idk about his course though. The way he tries to sell it is very snake oiley to me.. his interviews with successful devs though are literally gold..
Id say his videos, these videos any game dev video that isn't going to help you progress in your project currently is pretty much filler and a waste of time. I usually turn these types of videos on in the background when I'm taking care of my baby and literally can't work on anything, so try to grab important pieces from listening
This is 100% me. I'm spending too much time on UA-cam. Thank you for making this video.
To be fair to the guy and his magnet game, he's in the home stretch now. He came to the realisation not too long ago that "how long have I been working on this, again?", and devised a roadmap for himself. If I recall correctly he is lacking the music part and is going to outsource it because he has no experience in this field, but is pretty much set aside from that.
Your point about art and having a "pretty" finish before anything else is also valid. I give my 2 cents every now and then being an artist mysself, but from a devlog perspective it make no sense to go through art first. Unless you have a precise vision for it, art should complement gameplay, and not the other way around. It's less sexy in a presentation, but it makes for less ressources wasted.
Finally, I remember hearing somewhere that we tend to mistake the taking of information as aquiring experience. Our brain is biased in this way and it triggers when you download a picture or watch a video, so it could explain why people "waste" so much time on youtube.
(though I read that a while ago and cannot recall where, so take it with a grain of salt as it could be wrong).
I hope you don't catch too much hate for this one, as it sounds quite like a rant at first glance. Your points are good, but I fear a few people are gonna hear "watch our videos, not the other guy's".
One reason I've considered is why many games prioritize style and presentation is money. Dev vlogs are often an advertisement for early investment in a project. Capital is often a huge hurdle for indie games and they rightly assume people invest based on vibes and placeholder assets won't get the job done. It's not about the best way to do it, it's about goals and priorities. LMK if that makes sense.
@@ThatLuckyBearIt makes sense to me, but I put this in my "unless you have a vision" phrase. It makes no sense to advertise a style if it does not represent the end product or something similar to it. But yes, absolutely, pretty sells better.
@@rain4825 Thanks for the clarification. Great insight you've helped me peek behind the curtain a bit.
@@ThatLuckyBearIn the end it's just my opinion so make of it what you want, but if you found it helpful then I'm glad.
I totally agree with a number of UA-camrs being fake and making outlandish claims that you can get $100K in funding if you just buy their book or course and they'll be an expert in weeks. There are no shortcuts in life. Determine what you really want to do and put in the work.
So true!
I mainly watch them to keep myself motivated. Seeing others reach for goals similar to mine makes me feel less alone in my own process
Let me preface this by saying that I honestly think you have one of the most transparent game dev channels. I do love that you’re not just trying to sell on the highs but focus on the lows for a balanced breakfast. Pretty sure this is my favorite game dev channel. That said, you have legit mastered the art of the subtle plug.
So many plugs: forge industries, the coaching call option, bite me videos routing, songs of ever-jade, your discord.
You’re an amazing salesman. Definitely my favorite game dev channel.
The thing is, they aren't plug for me, they are what has given the actual experiences and lessons I've learned, allowing me to make this content without being stale or always saying the same thing.
In terms of actual conversion, at the time of this comment we've got 5.2K views, 0 new Patreons (not even free tier), 0 Forge Industry Sales, and no noticeable impact in wishlists (for both FI and Songs of Everjade). We gained 1 follower on Twitter (which we don't even use), and 13 people have joined our Discord since (which is alright I guess).
I purely "plug" these things to frame where I'm coming from, but I'm far past believing that making these videos will cause my games to be successful. -M
UPDATE: we reached 10k views, still 0 impact other than our Discord server growing
@@bitemegames I apologize if I came off as cynical! Please keep up the good work. Your channel is a place I visit many times whenever my motivation lowers. It helps manage my expectations and focus. Congratulations on your channels recent growth! I think 5k or so subs from last month or so?
@@bitemegames that’s really interesting, ty for the insight!
I like how you approach "failure".
You guys can be... brutally transparent / introspective.
You also don't spin it -- if something failed... or something did not work... you guys just accept it as a genuine lesson (which you emphasise can bloody hurt) but you don't try to spin it any further.
Failure hurts, and that progress from failure is ultimately all that can we can do -- not about spinning it into some "positive" all the time.
You guys are actually truly about reality of game "development", not game "success" (per se).
I think the problem with making devlogs is that a lot of the viewers are mainly watching to learn how they made the game, and not because they're actually interested in playing the game. The audience for these types of videos are game developers. Not people who want to play games.
Yeah I am one of those who want to learn. But these devlogs are entertainment-centered and not so much "how did you do that" so they're kinda pointless for me to look at unless its a dedicated tips n tricks video or smth
that and the actual games being made just aren't that interesting
the reason they start with the art, is so they can start promoting the game as early as possible in order to get to the point that they get enough wishlists by the time they're ready to launch. The idea is to have a trailer, steam and website up and running as early as possible in the game development's process.
Yea, basically what they're achieving is a vertical slice (or as close to one that you can get).
also because most of them are really experienced in the industry and can do everything from 3d models to programming and even sound design
It's a breath of fresh air listening to someone who understands that making devlogs attracts mostly gamedevs 👍
Totally agree, that's a sentiment I share. That feeling of "this is not gamedev, it's just youtube".
And after 2 years of making youtube (but a lot more doing gamedev), it's something that is getting obvious, you gotta choose between youtube and gamedev.
Mid October, I started working on a 3rd devlog of my game, then I released it and the next day I started a gamejam, 2 weeks later I had the results of the jam, so I started to work on a devlog and I'm almost done editing and the video should be out this week, but then my most successful video is last year's yearly recap, so I'll make a yearly recap this year too !
This means I'll spend 2-3 months without progress on my game. It just doesn't work.
I like gamedev youtube, I like to watch it, I have fun trying to be part of it, but viewers have to understand that it's video entertainment, it's not what gamedev is.
Totally agree! I've been making videos for a while and have only really in the last 6 months been trying to work on a game as well and I'm finding it really challenging! You sort of have to choose which one is the main focus and let the other one suffer (I've chosen to focus more on game dev atm).
I found Sebastian Lague's q&a video really helpful though, what he does is just work away at a project for x amount of time, then he switches to video mode and just goes through the commit history to record the project in earlier stages, rather than trying to do both at once.
I found this works really well for me too, and lets me condense the video making into a shorter time and lets me focus 100% on developing the rest of the time.
@@BarneyCodes "I've chosen to focus more on game dev atm" as you should ! 😎
I have a similar approach as I keep exported builds of my games everytime I get something done. So once it's time for a devlog I go through all those to see the progression (plus I keep notes) and I have builds to take footage for the devlog. I think my main issue is with synthesis. I have hard time to not talk about EVERYTHING. Which is both a problem for youtube because of pacing, but also for time, cause I make like 12-20 min videos that could be 6 min videos. Saving me some time and making better youtube.
@@RockyMulletGamedev Oh yea, I've learnt to be pretty brutal with what I cut out of my videos. Which is hard because it feels less authentic when a feature that took a week to implement is just glossed over in half a sentence!
I agree with your point on editing out the realistic struggles of development being potentially harmful, but I think it's unfair to drag Crimson Hollow into the conversation. I can't speak for the other devlogs I haven't seen like Night Stones. She doesn't claim to pull of coding magic, just sharing her passion project. Maybe I'm getting defensive over a series I like watching, but this video is approaching "look how good we are, those guys don't deserve the views" territory. Just my take. Keep up the transparency and realistic dev content.
No, Crimson Hollow definitely doesn't claim coding magic, but it serves more as an example of the formula that a succesful devlog focuses on aesthetics first, actual mechanics and gameplay second. The people making them are very much still deserving of the views, and especially crimson hollow has transcended the traditional "devlog" and has gone through a wider audience of people just generally interested in games. -M
@@bitemegames Ah okay. The confusion comes from using game footage whilst making a point on misleading devlogs but not giving context for the specific examples you've got on screen at that moment. Thanks for the reply.
I'm working on my game/games daily (around 8 hours per day) and when I'm done or during my break I watch your videos cause I deeply respect your approach. Yes, your UA-cam persona and engagement will help your studio in the long run, but you decide to be honest and give us your truth without the whole "shortcut" crap we see all around us! All the best and keep them coming guys!
I left a like, thats an amazing video and topic you pointed there. Almost everything you talked about is how I felt when I tried to develop my own game. I started to learn unity and game dev in 2019, Im still at a beginner level bcs I didnt work and learned consistently, there were major breaks etc. I felt stupid even making my own basic project bcs for example I had no idea how to make a specific mechanic, I constantly got stuck on problems and way of doing things, bugs and so on.
I was also anxious of the way I was doing things, I constantly felt like there must be a better way the way I code and I was scared that I was gonna make such a complicated code or system that if I wanna implement something else I wouId struggle.
I was like "I didnt learn anything from all that tutorials I watched and practiced!", in the end, I realised majority of tutorials are not even showing a complete experience of game dev, they dont show you different possible scenarios where you wanna implement a mechanic in a different way for example . They trim many of that parts down and only show you where they really can which is usually begginer level stuff. Rn Im on a break for like almost 2 yrs now cause I also have to work on my real job so I can feed myself. Tbh I wanna go back to game dev with a new project and a better mindset about now worrying that much.
I love finding channels like this that keep things grounded. Miziziziz is another good example. He doesn't post often, but he's an experienced dev who does actually put games out, gives good advice, and doesn't sugarcoat anything. He also has a great sense of cynical humour.
I also think it's no coincidence that he also gives similar advice to new devs: "don't expect big numbers from your first game. Make it small, and release it. Make bigger games later."
It's a path I'm trying to follow myself. After a few "small, but still not small enough" non-starters, I've just started another, even-less-ambitious project: a side-scrolling shooter. Super simple, but I'm having a blast with it _because_ it's so straightforward.
Interesting video.
I've really been struggling getting wishlists(currently 305) and I thought maybe I should start doing a devlog series but I'm not a youtuber(I think it would be out of my comfort zone) and I really dont want to spend all that time away from development(But whats the point in developing if nobody buys your game because you have no wishlists) But it put my mind at ease at least a little on the devlog side hearing that it does not convert to wishlists very well.
I recently patched, updated and released an older game of mine on steam(originally only released on Itch) Just for a little more experience on how the steam release process goes and I learnt so much from that and hopefully it will improve the launch of my current title.
Thanks for the useful information, I have learnt lots of interesting useful tips from your videos.
I agree with what you said here, though showing some other UA-camrs footage while you are talking about an issue, implies that youtuber is complicit in that issue.
For example, a few seconds after making the fair point that some other devs haven't even released a game yet, you showed Challacades awesome Legend of Luna, who is a dev who has completed and published 2 or 3 games already.
Hmm, not sure which game devs you're referring to but I think I watch quite a few who are genuine. Just because they might concentrate on visuals first for the sake of YT engagement and watch time (or even for marketing purposes as several game devs have shown this to be effective even if it is a bit backwards of an approach), doesn't mean that they aren't genuine. Especially if their initial background was in art first over other aspects of game development. In terms of really long projects, that's really their prerogative. For some it's a passion project, or a side hobby, or an all stakes gamble. And whatever reasoning for the length of the project or how they approach it in game dev is their own personal journey. At least that's how I perceive it. I guess some people probably do watch those videos and think that's what they should aspire to be.
In regards to showcasing difficulty hurdles in the game development process...I mean, do you expect someone to spend the whole video talking about how this bug halted their progress for days or something? I don't think this would be too entertaining to watch/listen to and I think the fact that they mention it at all is enough to show that they aren't trying to hide the truth or something. And as what someone else already mentioned, I think plenty of developers (at least in the indie scene) tend to be very transparent with numbers. Honestly, it's because of people like them (and you're own channel, of course) that people aspiring to make a commercial game can get a bit more of a realistic expectation.
Personally, I watch game dev videos (although I mainly listen to them while I'm doing other things) to keep me motivated and inspired to continue on with my own journey. I also don't mind commenting on the videos at times too (especially the smaller channels) because I think every comment helps a bit with the motivation. Or at least I know it does for me.
This is a fantastic reality check imo, it's the same issue that plagues social media and people's images of themselves. Nobody ever really posts their day to day hardships and struggles so it's easy to think "oh this very popular and pretty person has no problems and is successful, where did i go wrong??". The thing is is that everyone struggles and everyone makes mistakes and that's incredibly important to keep in mind. Great video!
I think the problem about talking about problems and failure is it's hard to make it interesting. Its hard enough alone to make code-talk interesting, and less when its about code that doesn't work. I have seen very few people make interesting videos about bugs or problems in their work and even then they had to make an incredibly high effort attempt to do so.
It's a media problem in the end why no one talks about mistakes, it doesn't "sell well" unless you can make the molehill into a mountain.
I'm at my dayjob. I watch game dev videos at my day job and almost never outside of that. So keep in mind there are likely plenty of others like me who aren't wasting time at all, but instead using UA-cam to learn passively when they can't learn actively at that moment.
I watch these kinds of videos and devlogs because it continually feeds me ideas about game dev, when I physically can't DO game dev.
That said, I think you're also looking at devlogs the wrong way. You're looking at it in a pessimistic light. I don't. When I see someone talk about about the issues they had and how they got over them, it gives me hope. It says to me that other devs find there way through or sometimes around problems, and so can I. This gives me motivation to want to clock out of my dayjob and get to work on my game.
This is especially important because I don't consider myself a programmer, or what you call developer. I'm an artist first and I'm stumbling my way through programming my game. Maybe it's the difference between the mindsets: artist vs programmer. Not sure.
I'm wondering if maybe you should be teaching devs how to look at these videos in the right way. Do it passively when you physically can't dev. And view it as hopeful and motivational. To drive them to get through the next issue. Because that's what they teach me. There's always a solution, and whether or not it's a good or bad solution, you will get through it.
Anyway, that's my piece. Love you guys!
This is really eye-opening, something you consider in the back of your mind, something you slowly realize, then have someone come out and confirm it.
As far as I know the point of getting lots of extra wish-lists isn't that they will convert to sales, they won't. It's to get visibility on steam since it pushes games with enough wish-lists.
Of course, if the limit is 9000 wish lists to get put on the front page for a few hours then getting 8900 wish lists isn't going to help at all. But that's where getting viewers to wish-list your game can help out. It doesn't matter if they are all gamedevs and has less than 1% conversion rate, if you can get enough to be promoted by the automatic systems you will have much more success.
But to get those numbers you already need a large presence, or at least have the right amount of showmanship to get views on youtube to convert to wish-lists… Bit like "if you're successful already you can be more successful," well yes. Obviously.
Excellent clickbait! It hooked me to this video right away! That's exactly my last video, where I'm sharing the story of how I solo developed the game that earned $100K+ :)
oh yeah? show me your tax returns 😤
Just watched your video. Such a real and open story of the journey. Wishing you great success with the mobile release of it!
@@Laverous thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate it!
Word, man, thank you! I love you guys and your channel. This topic in specific has always bothered me so much.
Like, if you are diversificating your time, you are not focsing on your game, its simple logic. But this mental gymnastics other devs make to prioritize the "fake it till you make it" mentallity is super toxic and it pours into young gamedev's ethos. I'm from Mexico and gamedev here is basically stagnated because its more important to look like you are making a game that actually making it. I don't actually know anyone that makes a living from making games and I worked at a gamedev university for 8 years! Even teachers are fake, lol.
The struggle is real, so keep the good work and thank you again for being so honest!
Relieved I didn't make it into the "bad example" list. Thanks for that.
...I'll later find out it's because you've never seen me before, but we'll breeze past that for now.
You're the man! Please keep posting and growing. Our game is 20 updates away from release and ive been focusing on growing this channel. We're at 500-ish wishlists and the goal is to release with 1k. You're an inspiration, and yes we actually have a public demo on steam!
I love these open, frank and pragmatic videos. Thank you for sharing the reality without breaking the dream.
Just wanna point out I noticed you showing footage of CodeMonkey while talking about bad conversion followed by devs hiding stuff at 8:55 - I hope you didn't mean it that way and it was just a coincidence, that dev is one of the few that has not only released dozens of games since the Flash days, but he's also super methodic and transparent with all of his data, from showing how much he has earned, to lowering everyone's expectations with wishlists and purchases, etc
Codemonkey is one of the "genuine" developers, I showed him there because he actually shows everything and gives it straight. I also know codemonkey personally, and he's just as genuine IRL than in his videos. -M
@@bitemegames Nice! I imagined this was the case and was hoping you didn't mean it the wrong way!
Hi!
What other youtube channels are you recommending to follow and watch their content? Im interested in similar type of videos like you guys do. Thanks!
I came to the same conclusions a couple of weeks ago. I was really enjoying watching all of the game dev stuff because it was beautiful and when I was doing my own dev, I felt so underwhelmed. Although it made me think they were so awesome and I was struggling so bad, I got to the point where I couldn't identify with their game dev progress. Finding devlogs to see the realistic and best practices when going through with my own dev and how to handle a huge codebase will be much more helpful (albeit less immediately consumable) than the flashy shallow videos.
Wow I think this explains why I could never get a devlog series going. I did a few, but like you said, I was interested in the programming more than the art and the way the game looked, so compared to other devlogs mine wasn't very appealing visually. Then I kept telling myself I'd make another entry, but I wanted to get more programming done first, and I wanted to wait till the game looked better. But since I'm more of a game dev than a youtuber I kept putting off art and stuff that would make a good youtube video.
Bold of you to assume I'm watching this video and not listening to it in the background as I make my game.
This channel is like finding a gem. I want to listen to dev-logs and game development stuff as I make my game, but so many devlogs are visual. You have to visually watch them the entire time to understand what's going on, and it's distracting. But this channel, it's like having a nice podcast on in the background. Exactly what I wanted.
Gamedev UA-cam is pretty big, so maybe I'm not seeing it all, but the people I know are mostly just having fun with it. Realistically very few can actually make a living off of it, so I think the goal is very rarely to make as much money as possible off of engagement. Personally I'm on the low end of effort on UA-cam and I prefer to focus on the gamedev side, but most content styles indicate the creator's interests moreso than just how they're trying to make a living.
I have over the years seen so many game dev videos and I knew a lot of what you said but you talked about a few I never thought of. I also never saved or bookmarked anyone based on these videos because they seemed to me to be all flash but the way you went into depth and made it clear that your interest was to make good content but only if it has intrinsic value and realistic advice made you an instant bookmark and favorite for me. Thank you for actually caring about getting people the right advice and the right way to start.
I'd say views on dev logs not translating into wishlists is expected. The audience watched for the dev experience, not looking for a new game. When I'm searching for a video where someone builds an RTS, I'm doing it to see what tricks they use and how they solve various issues - and most often honestly just to see what kinds of issues I should expect to run into cause I just don't know if I haven't built it myself yet. It may be tough or depresgin even to hear, but I don't care about the game the person is making in the devlog some 80-90% of the time, I care about the process.
On that note though, you are exactly right about the devs in those videos being focused on the youtube aspect way more than the game one. It hasn't really struck me before, but it fits nicely into why I have gradually lowered my reliance on youtube tutorials, guides, and dev logs and turned to courses, communities, and plain old docs. And to be explicit - this is not a hate, this is merely a fact of their profession and of life itself. It would just be better if people were more transparent about it, but then again, that would almost certainly eat into their youtube revenue.
Interesting video. I used to do devlog style tutorials with zero preparations and no editing. So, I have included parts that went wrong and sometimes needs to re-work on whole sections that felt wrong in a later episodes. This makes the videos way longer and requires multiple episodes to complete a small part, feature of the game and since everything is interconnected, it is harder to follow, specially for beginners. An hour long video like "TPS Shooter episode #230" could look intimidating as opposed to something like, "make this in 20 minutes". But at the end of the day, both types are not necessarily good or bad, they are just catering for different audiences.
Marnix! Hello :)
What'd be your opinion on adding mod support to you game in order for the community to be able to flesh out more content than dev-provided?
We've actually got mod support for Forge Industry, but we never had the community behind it who actually made mods. It adds a lot of complexity in terms the code systems, so for Songs of Everjade we will not be doing mod support, as it wasn't worth the time investment for us (it's also the wrong genre there). -M
It really just depends. Some videos are a massive source of inspiration.
You have a point. I'm a programmer, trying to be a youtuber, that's why my devlogs are up to 2 minutes long, just talking about the progress this week - no sure coating anything. And my first game failed financially, and I tried explaining what happened.
And for the devlogs of others - I like them because it inspires me to work on my game :)
I don't think I've ever been so called out in the first 7 seconds of a video in my life.
sick video, also the game at 4:27 really caught my eye, what's it called?
In Style, but it's not out yet, it's currently being made by a UA-camr: store.steampowered.com/app/2682490/In_Style/ -M
Hearing this video makes me wonder the reasoning other people watch devlog videos, you made it sound, and I cannot say if it's accurate or not because I have absolutely no idea, as if (most) of people watch devlogs only to learn how to make quick money; in my case, I enjoy watching (but not following) devlogs because I pay attention to the ideas they came up with (or stole, also can't tell, in the programming world almost everyone steals/borrows other people's ideas and scripts, including myself)
I see all the steps they made in general, and process the process they all followed and try to make some average in my head to try making plans about how to do certain things and how long it would take me, if I'm being ambicious or not; I obviously watch more tutorials than actual devlogs, but the latter gives me a glimpse of someone else's experience and I sometimes learn something from it
So videos like "How I made money with my first game" or anything similar, I never cosidered those as devlogs nor videos that have any information that would be of any real value to me
I am interested to make devlogs on my personal projects too, but this is the 2nd-3rd video I watch where I'm being reminded that it is very very different to be a game dev and a youtuber, both play different "games", in a very different environments and have different priorities; I believe devs in general can be both, but it'd be extremely hard and time consuming, let alone the fact the time to do both might not be worth
This guy is spot-on. I've watched A LOT of these "game dev" UA-camrs, because I'm curious what's being told to the public out there, and I'm appalled. All of you jumping into the comments homing in on "show numbers", just because the one or two you watch actually print numbers, this isn't about just the numbers. It's about the perception of how easy it is to do something or what the bar is for success or taking advice from people who haven't even gone through the entire process. Game making is more than having an idea, slapping some assets together in a prototype and calling it "done". It's tough and requires drive, passion and most-importantly STAMINA. Most of these UA-cam dev vlogs aren't teaching you those things and aren't about that. If you want to be a hobbyist, go for it. But if you want to be a professional, it takes a LOT more work than most of these vids show. This guy is spot-on.
What you said about the wishlists not converting from devlogs is very interesting. As a solo dev with no budget for marketing I assumed UA-cam would be the best way to get eyes on my game, but if it doesn't convert to wishlists and I assume also not to sales, then maybe it's not worth it. Do you have any suggestions of better ways to get wishlists as a solo dev? I assume you can't just put it up on Steam and hope for the best.
I am also curious about this!
Think about it - DevLogs are aimed and game developers. Not at gamers. Game developers don't want to buy your game - they want you to show them how they can make their own game.
I would say that generally good low budget marketing strategy is publishing GIFs of your game on some indy game reddits. This seems to have the best chance, from what I've heard. It may get picked up by some gaming UA-camrs from there. Generally, you want to publish in channels for gamers, not developers.
Thanks for checking on us in the beginning like that, lol. I finished my goal for the day and am just taking a break before putting in some extra.
I'm a professor and I love sharing info why the community and helping others. Released my first game and haven´t published nothing about it's process, because I feel that creating a devlog, even in blog format, would take too much time from me, time where I could be working on improving the project or starting a new one
Weird feeling here. The point about "twisting reality" and "oversimplification" is mostly because of the B.E.N.S. script writing (How To Write Scripts Better Than 99% Of UA-camrs - Film Booth), and on the other hand, yeah people will most likely try to get art going because it's how you can "sell" your product. Your point of not liking to watch gamedev UA-camrs make sense as someone who's learning or just doing their job, but at the same time viewers will want to see these things because it's (1) how algorithm / human brain works (we like seeing cute things) and (2) how they're getting stuff done. I don't blame you at all, but I don't feel like everyone could do what you do and still be successful.
I also feel like gamedev is both extremely complicated and extremely simple. Getting a game done is very hard, but talking about specific parts can e simple, even though you're most likely at a "local maxima" (and not really exploring all the hard stuff that's underneath).
The claim on the $$$ they make is very stupid though. We already suffer way too much from scams and we don't need these kind of things.
Yeah, I feel the same way, I have been working on my board game for 3 upcoming 4 years now. I have spent many hours falling into the trap of what I should use and never coming to a solution. I have deadass spent $300+ on books, two semesters of art school to get better at art, taught myself 3d, I'm going to school for IT and understand the basics of coding to one day make it into a video game, I've written nearly 80 pages of backstories, characters, worldbuilding, different sets of rules, testing the game with my friends and family, etc. It's honestly insane to think I still am pursuing my dream of making this game myself. ALL of it means nothing if you don't write a plan down and literally just do what you say you going to do. Tools are tools and they should be used as they are intended. If you want to do physical art and scan it into your computer and use it for a video game do that. If you want to make a physical card game, buy a printer, a cheap laminator, and a cutting board. That is exactly how I made my first prototype. ALMOST EVERYTHING I do revolves around me making and promoting my game. I have been making some UA-cam videos lately to make me get more comfortable speaking and reading scripts so I can voice my character's backstories. I bought books to read so I could write more in-depth storytelling. I use ChatGPT to help as an editor for my writing. MY ADVICE and I should make a video over this. Is to Just Do It like that one guy said. Dunkey was asked on the H3H3 podcast in summary "How are your videos so good" Dunkey's reply "I try". Bruh, most people don't even try anything and it's just a make-believe dream in their head, and UA-cam is like a smoke and mirrors that keep them in a circle. Most things in life are honestly very simple, and although Game Development is hard you won't get anywhere unless you make a plan and execute that plan. No amount of books or videos can get you to where you need to go but you.
Thank you for making this video.
I personally also some times struggle to keep myself motivated, because currently the game that I am working on look like s***t and it is totally not interesting from visual point of view. Which means currently nobody cares about it and it is kind off demotivating.
At the same time I know that I have spend a ton of time creating systems that will later on allow me to just fill the game with content (which I might be wrong, but I believe is the easier part).
But the problem is that people don't care about complex systems - they want something visual. Soo yeah. I would say that I agree with you, the only problem is how to keep yourself motivated at working on the important parts without having proper feedback or attention at all.
I agree with a lot of this. I find myself wanting to like a lot of the game dev content out there, but there are very few channels that I ACTUALLY enjoy. I think for the most part it's because a lot of the game dev channels are just making meme games for clicks/views.
From my own experience, I think it's hard to create devlogs that truly accurately capture the game dev experience, and for the most part I just show what changes I've made since the last video, because it has the least impact on my development time. I can just go through my commit history and get screen recordings of the project in various states, but a lot of devs are taking timelapses and real world footage WHILE they're developing and I can't help but think it must stop them from getting into any sort of flow state!
I definitely think there's a place for game dev on UA-cam, but it would be great if it was a bit more authentic (like what you're doing!)
goddamnit, you got me with that intro
I've been trying to learn blender but I keep procrastinating on it. It really sucks because I got in a groove making my game but now all that momentum is gone because I'm trying to learn how to model
"If your art is ugly nobody will watch it".
You are so right about this.
My first video legit had 0 art and wasn't even well put.
The other one is complete opposite and did way better.
That at 00:28, that's me right now. I got my glass of wine, i got a candle that smells like vanilla and i got the mood just right, with my feet in the air and a dreamy look on my face. That's how i look when i watch your videos.
Tool videos are very valuable if you're able to limit yourself to watching a couple, then be decisive. It's worth getting the tools sumarized from a video rather than spending several hours to do your own research. As a beginner it may not matter what engine you pick in terms of it's abilities (any will do), but your learning curve can be a lot smoother if you pick something that matches your past skills/style. For example I went with Phaser since I am very confident in my JS/TS skills, which allows me to focus on the game development side of learning.
Love to see fellow Belgians following their game dev vision :) keep up the great content, it's down to earth yet inspiring!
I think this can be cultural as well. In Norway where I am from you can even go to a website and see what anyone earned last year.
Certain cultures it can be "bad taste" to talk about number.
Others it is used to brag.
And some are very transparent.
Watching the talks from GDC I find very helpful, and more helpful than most youtube videos (even the old ones)
In Norway you can see what anyone from any profession has earned?
Oof. You bring up great points. I’m currently a 90-10 game dev to UA-camr. Just released my first game actually. I’m definitely trying to find my footing.
As much as I want to appeal to gamers, I also want to be genuine for other gamedevs as well
Would be keen on how much effort went into say making just this video, the editing, scripting and planning for basically 14 minutes of content
Around 4 hours/video on average.
I don't script out what I'm going to say, I only list out the main talking points (basically the timestamps).
This video had 21min of source footage, where I cut out the parts where I'm taking of what to say or I mess up a word,...
Editing those "bad takes" takes about 30min, the main editing issue is in finding the different pieces of B-roll that fit what I'm talking about.
The thumbnails take about 5-15min, as I just play around with MJ until I find something I like that can fit the video, I throw it in my Photoshop template and that's it.
The real issue is just the B-roll part of the edit, I don't do this for the Patreon monday bonus videos, I just talk and cut out the bad parts, I can finish those 20-40min long videos in about 1-1.5 hours.
-M
Great video man. Outside of the Sapiens devlog seiress, I found them to be a waste of time generally. Fast food if you will. The channels like GMTK and Razbuten that go deep into game details are super helpful as a developer. For example, there is not near enough information relating to UI and how to make good UX graphics. Tons of general info, but I was hoping for more deep dives into what works - fonts, sizes, colors, layouts, etc. Its super complex and makes the experienece, yet there are only tutorials on making basic menus. Where are the actual designers to give some tips and help us newbies out? Just glad I was a graphic/web desiner first. lol
Well said!! I dont know if this level of honesty will get you to the top of UA-cam, but I sure as hell appreciate it - hearing another game dev say these things validates what I have long thought.
The internet can be a great source for inspiration, learning, and meeting cool people, but I agree that it can also lead to getting too ambitious or demotivated.
This sorta problem is prevalent in every community. For example, I see many amazing artworks all the time online, but seeing so many used to make me feel like I was never a good enough artist myself.
But those professionals either spent years in their profession and/or put immense effort into practicing and developing their skills. It's easy to forget that for every one amazing art piece you see, they made a 100 crappy sketches for that artist to get there.
And even though learning anything has never been easier thanks to the internet, people are quick to think they're not good enough when they see others online do better. In short it's key that people just take the first step, give it all they've got, and try and try again. Passion's the only true way to get better at anything.
I stream my game development on twitch. It's pretty much entirely programmer and placeholder art.
I think it's a lot more genuine to stream your development versus just posting dev logs.
I want to make games and I have found that I’m doing the same thing I have always done my entire life. I am really big on buying notebooks and pens at the store just in case someday I want to write something down, but rather than use those notebooks and pens to actually write things down that may not be good or intelligent or commercially successful, I just have enough notebooks and pens for an entire school full of children to use. Game development is going the same way for me. Unfortunately my friends that are gamers or programmers aren’t interested in making games, either because they are already chained to a computer at work and want to go live in the woods, or they mostly would only be helpful for beta testing a game to see if it was actually fun to play, but aren’t actually technically minded or sufficiently talented to make technical suggestions or trouble shoot problems in a QA sense. Kinda on my own here, with my fear of failure, procrastination, lack of knowledge and lots of great and hard to implement ideas. So yea videos to kill time and dream about doing it instead of actually doing it. That’s 100% me. I think the solution is to focus more on videos that explain how to actually perform functions in an engine that I select mostly for its ease of use and less of a steep learning curve but can scale to more complicated projects if/when I get there… and just do SOMETHING, whether fun or not, playable or not, and then go to something else.
I watch this channel because of the lack of BS. You are honest and have taught me a more realistic POV on the point I need to rethink about how to release rather than just making the game. You are 101% correct and I usually skip other videos that talk about this subject because they are usually just blowing smoke. Thank you
Totally agree with this. Giving anyone the impression this stuff is easy only sets unrealistic expectations which lead to people giving up when they don't realise their experience of getting stuck is normal. Years ago I was doing a Udemy Unreal course (we all know the one, it's the biggest one on there) and I got horribly stuck with for while loops and felt so fucking inadequate because of it so I eventually gave up. It wasn't until I ended up actually working in AAA games (I came in as a cine artist in the end and moved into design) that I realised how hard game dev and programming is and realised getting stuck was actually normal. Game dev is hard. Programming is hard. So next time you get stuck either learning how to make games or while making your own game, remember we've all been there a million times and we'll all be there again a million times more. You just have to power through it and remind yourself it's not meant to be easy.
I watch devlogs /while/ working on my game, I find it gets me in the right mood/mindset.
Kinda like a podcast while working.
Your points are valid though, it can be a distraction and misrepresentation for many.
Be proactive with time management, it's a marathon.
If I could like a video two times, I would. Love the openness of the channel, keep the good work!
Mainly, watching game dev videos cause im at work. I am working in the army as a day job, and game dev on the side. I've finished and released 3 games, and they are not great, but it was a good learning experience.
The moment we went from 0 sales to 1 sale, we multiplied our sale numbers by infinity. xD
I make a YT Video here and there, but I'm more a gamedev. I sadly have barely time to make and edit videos.
Everything you say is actually true IMHO.
Funny we do gameplay and art parallel.
You are right gameplay should be fun no matter the art.
Our Team worked in the industry before.
So we basicly know what we want.
We make a concept and PoC the Gameplay.
If it is fun then we follow through and make Art for what's there and so on.
For example UI, we mock it first and the Art is before the "programming" or parallel.
Gameplay we do first with boxes and Art we have around.
Honestly in Project Astra Dominium, one of our games which we will fully release next month (currently Early Access),
we did the UI 3-5 times to iterate and make it better.
As a small indie studio we are very flexible and should leverage that.
If something doesn't feel fun, we throw it away and that is something, which is harder todo the bigger the team is.
Just an amazing video!
Shiny object syndrome, analysis paralysis. Watching stuff for future… Doing is the best thing always
It's not even the obfuscation that makes game dev UA-cam bad. I'll watch a tutorial on how to do something and the person just speedruns through the steps like I'm supposed to understand wtf just happened. In engineering, we create charts and diagrams to show how processes flow and how things are related. It's impressive that people can just smash out some code, but I get nothing from watching text appear and, "oh look, it works!" The only saving grace is that I'm not paying money for it.
I'm not sure if we've been watching the same game dev logs, but I haven't seen much of what you're pointing out here.
Holy smokes, thank you for this video.
I understand that even simple looking games take years to make.
What I didn't understand is why these games that look like they have 6 months of development tops have years and years of video blogs, and this video is the solution. The summary is that
1. Making an actual good youtube video is actually antithetical to making a good game, which is that visual assets should be the last thing to be updated not the first, and just releasing thes content updates in general slow down actual game production.
2. UA-camrs who actually build up a decent following, are actually incentivized NOT to release their game as the actual revenue stream comes from the video content itself, and not the game, and unfortunately the subscriber to wish list ratio conversion is actually pretty small.
I knew something was going on, thank you for confirming that i am in fact not crazy.
There is so much here that I respectfully disagree with, but in regards to the game dev discord and testing thumbnails, viewers don’t want crazy click bate true, but A B testing for visually appearing thumbnails, and trying to present the thing you worked so hard on in a good light is not the boogie man you paint it to be. You’re a stones throw away from attacking box art for triple A games because they focus test their product. UA-cam game dev is a lot of work, maybe more so than many other UA-cam styles, we have to do art, coding, and UA-cam all together, then at the end of the day get lumped into the “video game “ category which means our Adsense return is that of the lowest because it’s viewed the same as let’s plays and cod highlights.
What are your thoughts on Tim Cain's videos?
I had to pause and comment because of the "wrong" development order. I personally start with the art for when I make my games and I'm not a gamedev youtuber. I find it easier to imagine how my game will play once I have some sort of mock up and art assets I can use. While it might be sub-optimal, it's rather harsh to say that I am doing my development process "wrong".
You're not doing it wrong if you have any art skills, but we don't, so for us, it's definitely the wrong approach. -M
meanwhile i'm making devlogs in french done in 1 take with no editing.
i make the devlogs mainly to make me work. gives me goals and deadlines.
I can see why this is a problem. Many aspiring game developers learn from youtube. It's very easy to learn the wrong lessons about the overall process from devlogs as you mentioned. I don't follow any devlogs since I've been in the industry and it's nothing new to me. Occasionally there might be an entertaining video which is very well put together, but mostly I don't find devlogs entertaining. It might be the same kind of thing that some developers find different techniques of doing cool looking things interesting. Somehow I don't care about any of that, only the complete experience of the final product. I guess I'm just a gamer at heart.
It was also recommended to me that I should do a devlog, but I felt it would take too much time off development, so I just buried my head in the project and focused on getting things done. I just wanted to focus on making the game as good as possible. I didn't know marketing works like a snowball effect, that I really should have started marketing asap. In hindsight I should have made at least a small effort to make a devlog, maybe show off something publicly every few months. It wouldn't have taken too much time and it might have been beneficial in gathering a community. It might have been too slow for it to be engaging enough for many to follow actively, but further down the line finding a tight series of videos where you see a lot of progress in a short time might have been quite entertaining. I could still go through my project's git history and make a series retroactively, but I doubt that would work out better than my other marketing avenues I'm trying out. I'm also just really busy getting ready for release.
After thinking about it some more there are channels like this. I used to be subscribed to Crisom Hollow, but realized all she was uploading was art concepts and that’s boring to me. No gameplay.
Something I really appreciated about the dev behind Patch Quest is he actually released his game and it’s awesome. Now he’s started working on another.
I had thought of making games for free, and then making videos about it, and making any money through that. I don't have a problem with this, if someone is doing that. I agree most devs who watch these are probably procrastinating and definitely not working on their own stuff. But I don't have a problem with it existing, as long as I realize these guys are making videos for people to watch, and much less about the game itself.
What are all the books in the background?
From left to right:
- How to Draw - Scott Robertson
- Creating a Champion (BotW artbook)
- Fantasy World Building - Mark Nelson
- The art of Gu Zheng Wei - Guweiz
- Gamedev Business Handbook - Michael Futter
-M
@@bitemegames Thank you!
I'm not a developper, I'm an artist and even I, to whom art is important, always wonder why all those devlogs spend so much time on art and polishing what is nothing and has no future because they jump over so much of the creative process!
Also I've never thought about the incentive to not release the game because it won't sell and videos make money, that really puts it into a new perspective
"they're youtubers first and game developers second" THANK YOU!
For awhile I used to watch devlogs and at one point made a few myself. but eventually I stopped because I felt like alot of them imploded after dani blew up and everyone start copying his style of video with a quarter of the quality. And I really dislike alot of the attitude many videos developed.. the "HE SAID THIS AND I PROVED HIM WRONG". just extremely clickbaity and annoying. just sounds like a poorman's attempt at being 'cool'
But one thing I realized another fault was from the perspective of design. Basically I came across a design problem in my game where the Melee fault bad and eventually I fixed it and alot of other issues by playing my game for a bit of a longer period. like 30 minutes or something. replaying levels and so on till I find something that annoyed me. And I realized at that point this was what designing a game is really about. nothing flashy. it's making the most strong concept and design out of something made from cardboard and shoe glue. nothing flashy for the audience. no "I SWITCH GAME ENGINES" no adding big features or massive overhauls(through that can happen through this process). Often times it's just changing one variable. and when I realized this I begin to realized why alot of games never get released. many developers are stuck in a cycle of constantly adding new flashy stuff meant for a video title and thumbnail. and because often times programming a new feature is alot more fun. then playing your own game for a bit and changing one variable or two even if it's needed for a good game
Being a programmer first, I always struggle to include details on the bugs and issues I encounter during game dev. It feels less productive to document the process of fixing a frustrating bug than to just go deep in the weeds and fix it. Then I make a dev log, and I can only just gloss over the issue because I didn't properly document the process of fixing it. Definitely something I can improve on.
I’m not a game dev, I did two two games and one small hardware game on my channel but I never show bug hunting.
Because they are tedious and often it’s very abstract where the viewers wouldn’t understand it either way. I am showing concepts and sharing the whole code. If people are interested fine… if not also fine. To me bug fixing and reverse engineering, is an art. I can’t really tell people how to trace something back. It comes with experience.
And these days I have very few bugs in all of my code. Because most things I test immediately and fix the small issues immediately before they become hidden bugs. This arguably is even more tedious, seeing me throw everything to a function that could probably break it 😂
I love your openness! and the pransperency! keep taht going that is such a outstanding trait!
You earned my sub with this. As someone who works in marketing what you are saying about UA-cam as a platform is relevant to so much more than just gamedev. We could all probably stand to scroll a little less and work on projects a bit more lol.
Your honesty and genuineness is so, so refreshing in the vast barren landscape of constant lies and slander that tends to be UA-cam, as are social medias as a whole.
Thank you so much.
I spent about a month in Unreal and got discouraged by how many of their systems I'd have to learn to continue making my prototype. I tried Godot and everything about it made way more sense to me. Even though I have to make more of my own systems to compensate, that freedom is what I was looking for.
If see videos that give skewed truth or blantantly lie to viewers or try to do click bait, I tend to thumb down those videos because they waist people time and such channels don't need to be in the algorithm. Such channels mess it up for channels like one that which is honest and give REAL perspectives.
What is the name of the pixel art program?
Aseprite -M
xp in games: you beeing successful -> you gain xp
xp in reality: you fail -> you gain xp
FINALLY someone talks about this. This video was a breath of fresh air after seeing so many of these obnoxious "devlogs" in my recommended. And it's always bothered me a lot how idealistically these sorts of videos always portray their work. I've seen a few that were more genuine, it's not all bad, but the majority of this sort of thing is total marketing schlock. And the most ironic part is that as you said, it's not even effective marketing lol.
Transparency to the community i think is very important. As much as possible, I stay transparent to my community. 😊
This is why I love following your work. You are truthful, honest and aware. I always appreciate that you guys are the type you shouldn’t copy but the type to learn.
I do feel like this video may get attacked by many people and may get the wrong impression. If this decides to blow up and get spotted one of the content creators, they may make a reaction video to it. We will see what happens.
Great work, anyways. You and your team are good influencers we need more of.
8:18 I agree the vast majory of game dev tubers don't seem to understand that play testing early and often is what makes a great game and if people want to play it let them! You can discover so much that way.
well jokes on you
i do have youtube open quite a lot but thats for music
this was on autoplay for me. thanks for the video, quite good
also at 8:20, the star wars quote "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." would be quite fitting HAHAHA
7:59 this is an important reminder, because sometimes (especially in my game design classes), I feel like I’m the only person who coding doesn’t come naturally to and that any roadblocks I have someone else could have quickly fixed
Im working on my job, but you really hit a sore spot for me. I need to really just grind on my game. 😢
You echoed my feelings exactly.
I’ve been trying to juggle UA-cam and game dev while making sure my primary focus is game development. It’s not an easy thing to do.
But I think people value authenticity.
I de-value it. Lie to me
@@TreeFallStudios 😂
lmao@@TreeFallStudios
@@UnderdogDen LOL