Some progressive Christians hold to orthodox teaching on the essentials, but are liberal about the errancy of scripture, gender roles in church and LGBT issues. I consider these people to have the same religion as evangelicals. But other progressive Christians reject the Trinity, the Atonement, the physical Resurrection of Jesus. These might be very lovely people, but they follow a different religion to evangelicals. Progressive Christianity can also refer to someones politics, but not their theology. For example, I’m evangelical, yet my politics are fairly progressive and even left leaning in certain areas.
This is a great example of how the social sciences try to pretend like they aren't getting into philosophy or theology, but they are. It's unavoidable. This book is a great sophism, using the term religion "non-theologically." Replace every instance of "religion" with "way of conceptualizing meaning," replace "progressive" with "answers no to one of these questions, and the entire thesis of the book becomes trivial. It's only by using loaded terms in non standard ways that this book has an air of importance.
Great discussion and thank you both for your thoughts and inputs , here is what I have picked up from your discussion that Progressive Christianity uses the lens of Social Justice to read the scriptures where Conservative Christianity reads the scriptures to shape there social justice issues example . Abortion, Same sex Marriage etc. this was similar to the Roman Catholic Church Pope John Paul warned the Liberation Theology that was creeping into the church in Latin America which was aligning itself to Marxist ideology .
We all started not able to read these religious books were 1st thing we read so we blindy assumed it was only way. We turned into religious books into laws VS human rights into laws
It would be really helpful to include someone in these discussions to provide critical thinking to the ideas expressed. I know its important for people to have a venue in which to communicate their thoughts but when you go around describing a certain group (of which you aren't a part) to others, you presume to really understand that "group" and they have no means of pointing out any errors that may ensue. Having been in academics for a time myself, I am aware of many factors that influence research, its analysis and interpretation and I am doubtful of much of what I am hearing espoused by Dr Yancey. It bothers me how vulnerable to bias is the research to which Dr Yancey ascribes his conclusions -
I honestly feel an outsider's take on this topic will help Progressives and Conservatives work together (to which I highly recommend Tom Holland's Dominion)... so many of the terms like Christian nation and religion are so coloured by a false enlightenment narrative that's been swallowed whole. It's like the lie of the Conflict Thesis that eventually created a self-fulfilling prophecy in America.
please carefully define "religion", "faith", "conservative" and "liberal" ... and maybe we shouldn't be using those terms at all since they may fundamentally threaten productive discussions (maybe we should be talking about concepts, ideas, opinions and keep it all honestly Christ-centered in His teachings, examples and commands). For example stating that "Progressive" Christians use a "social justice" lens is vastly misleading because it ignores their desire to reflect Christ's example and teachings. Guys, the debates in Christianity around social justice aren't paying much attention to the fact of Christ's behaviors towards others and his expectations of us - why is that point ignored as being inconvenient, particularly to "right leaning" Christians?
He means that conservative Christians are seen as cults in European countries, especially in France. This is unfortunately true in the case of France, at least.
@@christophekeating21 Well, yeah, a conservative in my country would be seen as a liberal in America. Maybe America is just too much on the right within the Overton window?
@@js1423 Indeed, the current favorite to become the new leader of British Conservative Party and next Prime Minister of the UK, Penny Mordaunt, is on record as saying "'Trans men are men, trans women are women." It would be instant political suicide if a Republican leader said anything remotely like that here in the US.
@@EnglishMike In the country I live in both the right and the left make their opinions often clearly known, but consensus-making has always been key in big political decisions.
@@js1423 That used to be the way in the US too, but in the early 90s, Newt Gingrich became leader of the Republican Party in the House of Representatives, and suddenly tossed it all out of the window after realizing that demonizing the Democrats was the beat way to win elections, regardless of what it did to the country. He was right. (In case anyone thinks this is a "both sides did it" issue, Gingrich's pivot is well documented as a deliberate and unilateral strategy that completely blindsided Democrats and many Republicans alike.) Unfortunately, the US electoral system is controlled by the parties in power in the states and they make the rules to benefit themselves, not the people they represent. Thus it is extremely ill suited for consensus of any kind. I don't know where you live, but many countries have proportional representation while allows for a much more fluid kind of party politics which requires coalition building to form majorities. That can be messy too, but frankly, that kind of messiness would be much better than the complete paralysis going on in Washington these days. The US is rapidly falling behind when it comes to modern democratic norms.
Rethinking this talk on my second view and appreciating the distinction between religion and practice relative to theology and meaning. BOTH sides are making theological arguments that influence practice, which could be how we define religion? In that sense, plenty of sectarian differences equate to different religions. So, nothing new here except the incendiary rhetoric that is one sided?
Very good. This is why I perfer America as the new covenant nation rather than Christian since its not clear what Christian even is. There's one new covenant basically Jesus's religion rather than the many contradictory christian religions trying to understand jesus..they all progress in their own false dogmas.
32:00 excellent point. People sitting side by side at the same service, belonging to different religions. Yet not knowing it. Seems... odd.
Some progressive Christians hold to orthodox teaching on the essentials, but are liberal about the errancy of scripture, gender roles in church and LGBT issues. I consider these people to have the same religion as evangelicals.
But other progressive Christians reject the Trinity, the Atonement, the physical Resurrection of Jesus. These might be very lovely people, but they follow a different religion to evangelicals.
Progressive Christianity can also refer to someones politics, but not their theology. For example, I’m evangelical, yet my politics are fairly progressive and even left leaning in certain areas.
That was a good, interesting, thought provoking conversation.
Excellent conversation
This is a great example of how the social sciences try to pretend like they aren't getting into philosophy or theology, but they are. It's unavoidable. This book is a great sophism, using the term religion "non-theologically." Replace every instance of "religion" with "way of conceptualizing meaning," replace "progressive" with "answers no to one of these questions, and the entire thesis of the book becomes trivial. It's only by using loaded terms in non standard ways that this book has an air of importance.
Oh dang! It happened!
Great discussion and thank you both for your thoughts and inputs , here is what I have picked up from your discussion that Progressive Christianity uses the lens of Social Justice to read the scriptures where Conservative Christianity reads the scriptures to shape there social justice issues example . Abortion, Same sex Marriage etc. this was similar to the Roman Catholic Church Pope John Paul warned the Liberation Theology that was creeping into the church in Latin America which was aligning itself to Marxist ideology .
We all started not able to read these religious books were 1st thing we read so we blindy assumed it was only way. We turned into religious books into laws VS human rights into laws
I do think Progressive Christianity is much closer to Gnosticism than to orthodox Christianity
It would be really helpful to include someone in these discussions to provide critical thinking to the ideas expressed. I know its important for people to have a venue in which to communicate their thoughts but when you go around describing a certain group (of which you aren't a part) to others, you presume to really understand that "group" and they have no means of pointing out any errors that may ensue.
Having been in academics for a time myself, I am aware of many factors that influence research, its analysis and interpretation and I am doubtful of much of what I am hearing espoused by Dr Yancey. It bothers me how vulnerable to bias is the research to which Dr Yancey ascribes his conclusions -
I honestly feel an outsider's take on this topic will help Progressives and Conservatives work together (to which I highly recommend Tom Holland's Dominion)... so many of the terms like Christian nation and religion are so coloured by a false enlightenment narrative that's been swallowed whole. It's like the lie of the Conflict Thesis that eventually created a self-fulfilling prophecy in America.
please carefully define "religion", "faith", "conservative" and "liberal" ... and maybe we shouldn't be using those terms at all since they may fundamentally threaten productive discussions (maybe we should be talking about concepts, ideas, opinions and keep it all honestly Christ-centered in His teachings, examples and commands). For example stating that "Progressive" Christians use a "social justice" lens is vastly misleading because it ignores their desire to reflect Christ's example and teachings. Guys, the debates in Christianity around social justice aren't paying much attention to the fact of Christ's behaviors towards others and his expectations of us - why is that point ignored as being inconvenient, particularly to "right leaning" Christians?
7:10 what does he mean European countries and cult?
He means that conservative Christians are seen as cults in European countries, especially in France. This is unfortunately true in the case of France, at least.
@@christophekeating21 Well, yeah, a conservative in my country would be seen as a liberal in America. Maybe America is just too much on the right within the Overton window?
@@js1423 Indeed, the current favorite to become the new leader of British Conservative Party and next Prime Minister of the UK, Penny Mordaunt, is on record as saying "'Trans men are men, trans women are women." It would be instant political suicide if a Republican leader said anything remotely like that here in the US.
@@EnglishMike In the country I live in both the right and the left make their opinions often clearly known, but consensus-making has always been key in big political decisions.
@@js1423 That used to be the way in the US too, but in the early 90s, Newt Gingrich became leader of the Republican Party in the House of Representatives, and suddenly tossed it all out of the window after realizing that demonizing the Democrats was the beat way to win elections, regardless of what it did to the country. He was right.
(In case anyone thinks this is a "both sides did it" issue, Gingrich's pivot is well documented as a deliberate and unilateral strategy that completely blindsided Democrats and many Republicans alike.)
Unfortunately, the US electoral system is controlled by the parties in power in the states and they make the rules to benefit themselves, not the people they represent. Thus it is extremely ill suited for consensus of any kind. I don't know where you live, but many countries have proportional representation while allows for a much more fluid kind of party politics which requires coalition building to form majorities. That can be messy too, but frankly, that kind of messiness would be much better than the complete paralysis going on in Washington these days.
The US is rapidly falling behind when it comes to modern democratic norms.
Rethinking this talk on my second view and appreciating the distinction between religion and practice relative to theology and meaning. BOTH sides are making theological arguments that influence practice, which could be how we define religion? In that sense, plenty of sectarian differences equate to different religions. So, nothing new here except the incendiary rhetoric that is one sided?
Very good. This is why I perfer America as the new covenant nation rather than Christian since its not clear what Christian even is. There's one new covenant basically Jesus's religion rather than the many contradictory christian religions trying to understand jesus..they all progress in their own false dogmas.
I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. "confusing and confused,"
what a waffle